Unbreakable records

[Vengeance of Rain]

Being a newer fan than many here Secretariats Belmont is the only one I can think of.

There have to be others.

Can someone enlighten me?

[PhantomOnTour]

Woody Stephens trained 5 straight Belmont winners.
Never gonna happen again.

[castaway01]

I don't think this is a record per se (like "most weight carried by a handicap horse"), but Forego carrying 137 pounds to win the Marlboro in 1976 you aren't going to see again. Racing has changed and no trainer would have to run with that kind of weight on their horse now---too many other options.

[iceknight]

Woody Stephens trained 5 straight Belmont winners.
Never gonna happen again.
I was actually thinking about that when looking up the trophy info on all the TC races!

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belmont_Stakes#Records

Now, one record that can be "matched" but cannot be beaten is Seattle Slew's record of being the only undefeated triple crown winner.

or Man O' War's 100 length margin.. Look up his wiki page.. that horse was *something*

[Vengeance of Rain]

I don't think this is a record per se (like "most weight carried by a handicap horse"), but Forego carrying 137 pounds to win the Marlboro in 1976 you aren't going to see again. Racing has changed and no trainer would have to run with that kind of weight on their horse now---too many other options.
Not to go too far off topic but didn't Affectionately once carry 137 pounds?

I wish I had seen her.

There's a horse in New Zealand, Mufhasa (HOY) who was assigned 61 kg in the Easter H. earlier this year. I think that's about 140 pounds.

[Vengeance of Rain]

Man O' War's 100 length margin.. Look up his wiki page.. that horse was *something*
I have some serious catching up to do because i never knew that.

That's the problem with being a newer fan. Sometimes there are things that everyone knows and since everyone knows they aren't mentioned because it's assumed everyone knows!

[castaway01]

Not to go too far off topic but didn't Affectionately once carry 137 pounds?

I wish I had seen her.

There's a horse in New Zealand, Mufhasa (HOY) who was assigned 61 kg in the Easter H. earlier this year. I think that's about 140 pounds.

I have no idea, I just picked one great horse. Let's say you won't see a horse carrying 137 pounds in an American handicap race again, okay?

[Striker]

Kelso being named Horse of the Year 5 times in a row from 1960-64.

[mostpost]

I don't think this is a record per se (like "most weight carried by a handicap horse"), but Forego carrying 137 pounds to win the Marlboro in 1976 you aren't going to see again. Racing has changed and no trainer would have to run with that kind of weight on their horse now---too many other options.
I believe the record in a stakes race is Roseben carrying 147 to win the 1906 Manhattan Handicap, a six furlong race at the time. But you are 100% correct that no horse will carry even 137 pounds to victory now.

Man O War carried 130 pounds six times. As a two year old.

[iceknight]

I have some serious catching up to do because i never knew that.

That's the problem with being a newer fan. Sometimes there are things that everyone knows and since everyone knows they aren't mentioned because it's assumed everyone knows!
Not sure how *new* you are, but I got into this board only after Preakness 2011. So, just about a year now. I found about Man O' war's record within the last two hours when I was wikijumping (ie going from one link to another after starting out at Belmont Trophy description). What to say, I love this sport too much now! :)

[castaway01]

I believe the record in a stakes race is Roseben carrying 147 to win the 1906 Manhattan Handicap, a six furlong race at the time. But you are 100% correct that no horse will carry even 137 pounds to victory now.

Man O War carried 130 pounds six times. As a two year old.

Good post, thanks. Do you have any idea of the record in the modern era, let's say since 1960? Forego carried 137, was that the peak or did Dr. Fager surpass it, or another horse?

[nijinski]

Seattle Slew holds a few .
Only undefeated TC winner .
I believe he is the only TC winner to beat another TC winner "Affirmed" . So chances are that's solid for a long while.
Street Sense holds the honors of being the only BC Juvey winner to win the Kentucky Derby.
Zenyatta beating the boys in the BC Classic.

Can't leave out Genuine Risk . Not only does she win the Derby , but completes the Triple Crown series , placing in the Preakness and Belmont . She was one of a kind.

[mostpost]

I have some serious catching up to do because i never knew that.

That's the problem with being a newer fan. Sometimes there are things that everyone knows and since everyone knows they aren't mentioned because it's assumed everyone knows!
Man O War's one hundred length margin in the Lawrence Realization Stakes is really not that remarkable. He only faced one horse and that horse, Hoodwink, was a less than stellar animal. Originally Hoodwink was not even scheduled to race in the Lawrence. In fact he had finished second in a six furlong race the day before. He was not even a stakes caliber horse let alone a threat to Man o War.

Before the Lawrence, the only horse entered to face Man o War scratched. Not wanting a walkover, track officials went looking for a substitute. The only horse on the grounds that was eligible for the Lawrence was Hoodwink. His owner Sarah Jeffords agreed to run if Samuel Riddle, Man o War's owner, promised that Man o War would not humiliate her colt.

Unfortunately as the horses were being readied, Mrs Riddle urged her husband to let Man o War run his best so people could see just how fast he was. Apparently forgetting his promise to Mrs. Jeffords, Riddle instructed Clarence Kummer to let the big red colt run on his own and set him down in the stretch.

Hoodwink was demoralized after a couple of furlongs.

If you are interested in the history of racing, I can recommend a few books. They are old but may be available on Amazon. The first is "A History of Thoroughbred Racing in North America" by William H.P. Robertson. It chronicles racing from colonial times to the late 60's.
Then there is "The Great Ones" Kent Hollingsworth is the editor of this book. It is a reprint of a series that ran in Blood horse Magazine in the late 70's. It is a series of articles on the 76 greatest racehorses of the American Turf to that time.
Finally I would recommend "Champions." This book was published by The Daily Racing Form and is simply the past performance lines of all the horses that were considered Champions from the 1890s to near the present.
There are books that continue the history from 1970 into the present. Perhaps others could suggest some titles.

[PhantomOnTour]

Seattle Slew holds a few .
Only undefeated TC winner .
I believe he is the only TC winner to beat another TC winner "Affirmed" . So chances are that's solid for a long while.
Street Sense holds the honors of being the only BC Juvey winner to win the Kentucky Derby.
Zenyatta beating the boys in the BC Classic.

Can't leave out Genuine Risk . Not only does she win the Derby , but completes the Triple Crown series , placing in the Preakness and Belmont . She was one of a kind.
I think Exceller beat them both in the same race, making him the only horse to defeat two TC winners.
Jockey Club Gold Cup 1978 he beat Seattle Slew and Affirmed

[v j stauffer]

Woody Stephens trained 5 straight Belmont winners.
Never gonna happen again.

To beat this would be training six Belmont winners in a row. Never never ever ever going to happen. NO CHANCE.

[nijinski]

I think Exceller beat them both in the same race, making him the only horse to defeat two TC winners.
Jockey Club Gold Cup 1978 he beat Seattle Slew and Affirmed

You are correct and I don't want to change the subject . But he's one of many who has a special place in my heart . Another with a sad , brutal ending , but thanks for bringing him up.

[nijinski]

To beat this would be training six Belmont winners in a row. Never never ever ever going to happen. NO CHANCE.

He had a first and and second place in one of his Belmont's .
Boy , they need his advice today on how to stretch em out .

Cteme Fraiche the gelding and Stephen's Odyssey.

[nijinski]

I assume John Henry will hold his record as a nine year old for graded stakes won. You don't see any like him these days.

[maclr11]

The tin man co holds that record with John Henry
He won the shoemaker mile in 2007
He was 9 as well

I'd say 224 in the Belmont
Woody Stephens 5 belmonts
Exceller
Will there ever be another English tc winner?
How bout granddam dam and daughter all bc Winners
Storm flag flying
My flag
Personal ensign

[westny]

As for unbeatable records...how about Alydar...the only horse in history :) to finish 2nd in all 3 TC races to the TC winner.

[Grits]

All three of Secretariat's Triple Crown races, the Derby, the Preakness, and the Belmont, record times still remain unsurpassed.

One name that's not been mentioned, one of the greats. Ruffian.

In all of her 11 races (with the exception of her 11th and last) she was never headed. She was on the lead at every point of call.

Margin of win by a filly--21 lengths. Most likely, Rachel's Kentucky Oaks, though, I could be wrong. First filly to beat older male horses in the Woodward Stakes, Rachel.

[tucker6]

Secretariat's 22 pound heart. Sham is #2 at 18 pounds. Phar Lap and Eclipse were far back at ~14 pounds. The average TB has an 8.5 pound heart.

People say that they don't make them like Secretariat anymore. Well, they never made them like Big Red before either. The best egg of the bunch met the best sperm of the bunch on that one day in 1969. Luck of the draw as they say. Thank goodness Somethingroyal didn't call in with a headache.

[thaskalos]

Never again will we see a come-from-dead-last closer win 19 races in a row...regardless of sex, class, or racing surface.

Zenyatta was one of a kind.

[tucker6]

Never again will we see a come-from-dead-last closer win 19 races in a row...regardless of sex, class, or racing surface.

Zenyatta was one of a kind.
I sure hope we don't see connections pick and choose races to reach an artificial record. I prefer records be genuine.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

Bart Cummings training 12 Melbourne Cup winners. Cannot see that record being beaten unless Bart trains more

[v j stauffer]

I sure hope we don't see connections pick and choose races to reach an artificial record. I prefer records be genuine.

Not one half ounce of her 1200 lbs wasn't genuine.

Watch it Tucker!

[v j stauffer]

I sure hope we don't see connections pick and choose races to reach an artificial record. I prefer records be genuine.

If it was that easy why wouldn't everyone do it?

[mrhorseplayer]

does not matter how a horse wins , front end, back end, off the pace, the fact that any horse wins lots in a row is a feat in itself esp now days.

[mostpost]

Good post, thanks. Do you have any idea of the record in the modern era, let's say since 1960? Forego carried 137, was that the peak or did Dr. Fager surpass it, or another horse?
Dr. Fager did win the 1968 Vosburgh carrying 139. He led all the way, won by six and was within a fifth of a second of the world record at the time. If course the Vosburgh was a seven furlongs and the Marlboro Cup a mile and a quarter. I would give Forego credit for the greater accomplishment. Still, Dr. Fager was an incredible racehorse.

I can't help thinking that the top horses of the sixties and seventies would have embarrassed today's top horses.

[tucker6]

If it was that easy why wouldn't everyone do it?
Pepper's Pride

[v j stauffer]

Pepper's Pride

OK. Pepper's Pride. Sorry I blew up! :bang:

[duncan04]

Pepper's Pride

Big difference when it's statebreds vs graded company though.

[tucker6]

Not one half ounce of her 1200 lbs wasn't genuine.

Watch it Tucker!
your reading comprehension is off today. I said her record wasn't genuine since most of her races were against plow horses. I like Z, but her connections collective egos got in the way of what could have been a better career. I know some point to 19 straight, but I think I could win 19 straight races against 8 year old kids too. Doesn't make it impressive, and I'm not impressed with Z's streak.

[tucker6]

OK. Pepper's Pride. Sorry I blew up! :bang:
I point to PP because it shows what records can be accumulated when you don't race better competition.

[tucker6]

Big difference when it's statebreds vs graded company though.
That wasn't my point. He thinks 19 straight is magic beans. I say without context it is not.

[duncan04]

That wasn't my point. He thinks 19 straight is magic beans. I say without context it is not.

Gotcha. You can throw Rapid Redux in there as well.

[v j stauffer]

your reading comprehension is off today. I said her record wasn't genuine since most of her races were against plow horses. I like Z, but her connections collective egos got in the way of what could have been a better career. I know some point to 19 straight, but I think I could win 19 straight races against 8 year old kids too. Doesn't make it impressive, and I'm not impressed with Z's streak.

I comprehend just fine. I just think what you're saying is nonsense. Against plow horses? Cmon Tucker. She won the Breeders Cup Classic.

[castaway01]

Dr. Fager did win the 1968 Vosburgh carrying 139. He led all the way, won by six and was within a fifth of a second of the world record at the time. If course the Vosburgh was a seven furlongs and the Marlboro Cup a mile and a quarter. I would give Forego credit for the greater accomplishment. Still, Dr. Fager was an incredible racehorse.

I can't help thinking that the top horses of the sixties and seventies would have embarrassed today's top horses.

Thanks mostpost.

[tucker6]

I comprehend just fine. I just think what you're saying is nonsense. Against plow horses? Cmon Tucker. She won the Breeders Cup Classic.No, you're not comprehending what I'm saying. I'm saying the following:


Z was a great horse
Z had some great races (BC as you mention)
Winning 19 straight doesn't tell you she was great because most of those races were against the same tired competition over and over again, some of which she barely won.
If they hadn't hid her in CA so much, she would have either a) lost a few; or b) become a legend.

[v j stauffer]

No, you're not comprehending what I'm saying. I'm saying the following:


Z was a great horse
Z had some great races (BC as you mention)
Winning 19 straight doesn't tell you she was great because most of those races were against the same tired competition over and over again, some of which she barely won.
If they hadn't hid her in CA so much, she would have either a) lost a few; or b) become a legend.


No you're not comprehending what I'M saying. I DISAGREE!!!

[classhandicapper]

No, you're not comprehending what I'm saying. I'm saying the following:


Z was a great horse
Z had some great races (BC as you mention)
Winning 19 straight doesn't tell you she was great because most of those races were against the same tired competition over and over again, some of which she barely won.
If they hadn't hid her in CA so much, she would have either a) lost a few; or b) become a legend.


This will be my only comment on this.

Times have changed.

The connections of graded stakes horses have many opportunities to pick and choose spots where they can maximize their chances of winning races, earning money, winning year end awards, and increasing the value of their horse etc...

All you can ask is that the best ones run mostly in Grade 1 races, run in BC races at year end if they are still fit and sound, run enough times in a year and in a career to evaluate their ability, and not retire quickly after the first minor setback to maximize value and avoid a real test. If they do that, they will get tested plenty of times and we'll have lots of fun watching them.

Anything we get past that is a blessing.

Some of this stuff is just random. There are strong and weak crops, the best competition gets hurt or retires, the best competition avoids you, the best competition is racing on another circuit etc...

Not every owner is going to go out their way to throw their horse to the wolves every time just to satisfy fans when there is a clear cut risk of wearing the horse down prematurely and/or losing year end awards with a sub par performance when it counts. It doesn't make sense. I would argue it's the WRONG way to manage a horse even though I certainly understand the opposing view as a fan.

[classhandicapper]

Woody Stephens trained 5 straight Belmont winners.
Never gonna happen again.

Totally unbreakable.

[mrhorseplayer]

Secretariats Belmont romp will never be beaten

[iceknight]

Secretariats Belmont romp will never be beaten Guyana Star Dweej is going to beat it in 2012.

[tucker6]

No you're not comprehending what I'M saying. I DISAGREE!!!
Thanks for the engaging and thoughtful response.

[PhantomOnTour]

Guyana Star Dweej is going to beat it in 2012.
Clearly...duh ;)

[nijinski]

No, you're not comprehending what I'm saying. I'm saying the following:


Z was a great horse
Z had some great races (BC as you mention)
Winning 19 straight doesn't tell you she was great because most of those races were against the same tired competition over and over again, some of which she barely won.
If they hadn't hid her in CA so much, she would have either a) lost a few; or b) become a legend.


She is a very big horse . With all her accomplishments , she stayed sound .
That's not always easy and we've had these arguments about her time and time again . Her BC loss to Blame on dirt was no disgrace to her and for many , she will be thought of as a legend.

[andtheyreoff]

Here's a few:

-Back in the 1880s, a horse named Kingston won 89 races and hit the board 134 times.
-Hiblaze, back in the 1940s, raced 408 times.
-Leaping Plum won the Graustark Handicap at Fonner Park every year from 1995-2003. That's EIGHT straight runnings.
-Camarero's 56 wins in Puerto Rico back in the 1950s.
-The old warhorse Peat Moss, as I recall reading, carried 145 lbs in a starter handicap in the 1980s. Not sure if that is a record in modern day (probably is), but that will never happen again.
-Eddie Arcaro rode 2 Triple Crown winners, and Sunny Jim Fitzsimmons trained 2.

[v j stauffer]

Thanks for the engaging and thoughtful response.

Thanks for listening.

[badcompany]

That's easy:

Tom's PaceAdvantage post count.:cool:

[maddog42]

Spectacular Bid held 4 track records simultaneously and set 2 of them in back to back races. I don't think that has ever been equaled, at least at major tracks.

[LottaKash]

I Predict that, if Bodiemeister comes back fit and prepped well, he will somewhere along the way this year, break some record, somewhere.....

I think that he is that fast and talented...Champion caliber in my mind....Tho I wish that he had a better and different foundation coming into this year...Who's to say what and where Bodie would be, as of lately, if not for the "late bloomer" effect.... Still, it is what it is, and Baffert won't hurt this horse any, I don't think.....

I believe that he is really something, and, I am looking foreward to his return.....

Then too, I wish he were just a little handier with the speed.....Tho with the very best ones, they do what they do, and being in front and in control is always a good place to be....

best,

[mostpost]

Spectacular Bid held 4 track records simultaneously and set 2 of them in back to back races. I don't think that has ever been equaled, at least at major tracks.
I don't know if it has been equalled since, but back in 1956 Swaps held the Hollywood Park records for the mile; mile and a sixteenth; mile and an eighth; mile and a quarter and mile and five eighths. All of them, except for the mile and a quarter record, were also world records at the time. He also held the world record for a mile and seventy yards at the time, but that was set at Gulfstream Park. (Before they had the weird timers)

[tucker6]

Spectacular Bid held 4 track records simultaneously and set 2 of them in back to back races. I don't think that has ever been equaled, at least at major tracks.
I would think Secretariat did better. He held the track record for three consecutive starts (TC series) and then had the record for the Marlboro Cup as well later on.

[5k-claim]

I sure hope we don't see connections pick and choose races to reach an artificial record. I prefer records be genuine.Pretty sure the bank considered all of her record $7.3M to be genuine when it was deposited. As do I.

Not many of the guys who I talk to every day at the track share your opinion of Zenyatta's records. But then again, maybe you are just smarter than they are.

Or know more about horses.

.

[tucker6]

Pretty sure the bank considered all of her record $7.3M to be genuine when it was deposited. As do I.

Not many of the guys who I talk to every day at the track share your opinion of Zenyatta's records. But then again, maybe you are just smarter than they are.

Or know more about horses.

.
Zenyatta has one record which was artificially created.

[Meunuco]

While there were many great oldtime castrators, G.P Odom quickly comes to mind, Wesley Ward has easily surpassed them all. Is there even a colt/horse in his barn? He's out to 'purify' the breed all on his own. The man has climbed to insurmountable heights.

[thaskalos]

Zenyatta has one record which was artificially created.
I would like to point out that the reason I included Zenyatta in a thread about unbreakable records was not her winning streak; others have won more consecutive races than she did.

It was because she won all those races while coming out of the clouds each and every time.

We had never seen anything like it before, and we never will again...regardless of class or racing surface.

Extreme stretch runners don't display this kind of consistency...regardless of distance or the surface they race over.

I understand your zeal to talk about the level of competition she faced...but that has nothing to do with my post.

If you think that we will see another 19 race winning streak by an extreme stretch runner...then you don't understand the game very well.

[sandpit]

I don't know if it has been equalled since, but back in 1956 Swaps held the Hollywood Park records for the mile; mile and a sixteenth; mile and an eighth; mile and a quarter and mile and five eighths. All of them, except for the mile and a quarter record, were also world records at the time. He also held the world record for a mile and seventy yards at the time, but that was set at Gulfstream Park. (Before they had the weird timers)

That 4-year-old season Swaps had is arguably the greatest in the history of horseracing. Spectacular Bid in 1980, Dr. Fager in 1968, and Tom Fool in 1953 are three others that come to mind.

I'm sure there are others that rank up there.

[tucker6]

I would like to point out that the reason I included Zenyatta in a thread about unbreakable records was not her winning streak; others have won more consecutive races than she did.

It was because she won all those races while coming out of the clouds each and every time.

We had never seen anything like it before, and we never will again...regardless of class or racing surface.

Extreme stretch runners don't display this kind of consistency...regardless of distance or the surface they race over.

I understand your zeal to talk about the level of competition she faced...but that has nothing to do with my post.

If you think that we will see another 19 race winning streak by an extreme stretch runner...then you don't understand the game very well.
If that was your context, then I agree with you.

[SharpCat]

How about Zippy Chippy's winless streak.

[Dahoss9698]

Not a record, but I don't think we'll see another 3 year old filly win the Oaks, a triple crown race, another grade 1 against 3 year old males and defeat older males in the same season like Rachel Alexandra did.

[v j stauffer]

Not a record, but I don't think we'll see another 3 year old filly win the Oaks, a triple crown race, another grade 1 against 3 year old males and defeat older males in the same season like Rachel Alexandra did.

Sharp post. One of the greatest season long campaigns in history.

[Cardus]

Not a record, but I don't think we'll see another 3 year old filly win the Oaks, a triple crown race, another grade 1 against 3 year old males and defeat older males in the same season like Rachel Alexandra did.

This will be extraordinarily difficult to duplicate.

[maddog42]

I don't know if it has been equalled since, but back in 1956 Swaps held the Hollywood Park records for the mile; mile and a sixteenth; mile and an eighth; mile and a quarter and mile and five eighths. All of them, except for the mile and a quarter record, were also world records at the time. He also held the world record for a mile and seventy yards at the time, but that was set at Gulfstream Park. (Before they had the weird timers)

The Bid never lost between 7f and 1.25 miles. At the age of 2 in June in his first start he came within 2/5 of the track record at Pimlico at 5.5f. 3 weeks later he tied the track record at Pimlico. That is virtually unheard of. His official time in the preakness was faster than Secretariat. The Bid still holds the World Record at 1 1/4 mile. Except for injury he probably would have won the TC. He won all 9 races as a 4 year old and set track records in 4 of them. I have him tied with Secretariat as the greatest horse in North American racing.
Secretariat was certainly better at the 1.5 mile distance, but the Bids racing career at shorter distances was stronger.

Ps He won 26 of 30 races and at the time had won more money than any other horse. Timeform ranked the Bid 3rd behind Secretariat and Citation
for North American TB horses.