A vet on Lasix and Milkshaking

[Horseplayersbet.com]

This is a great post. Lots of insight.
http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/25/alkalinization-lasix-and-milkshaking-a-veterinarians-view/

[DJofSD]

The statistics presented at the hearing clearly show horses medicated on race day break down more often than clean racing runners. The connection is indisputable.

So owners, operators and legislators will spend millions of dollars to change a racing surface with the motivation of reducing injury. Will they change and enforce medication related regulations to do the same?

[classhandicapper]

I'm not a vet. So a lot of this stuff is outside my range. I just know I don't trust any owners, trainers, or even many vets to tell me the truth about drugs because they have an economic interest involved in keeping things as they are.

What is clear to me is that a lot of guys are either 100% cheating or skating on a very thin line between cheating and not to enhance performance.

When I read something like this, I am way more apt to believe what this guy is saying than some guy I make 50-50 to be a scumbag. (should that 50-50 comment be in the thread about making an odds line?)

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I'm not a vet. So a lot of this stuff is outside my range. I just know I don't trust any owners, trainers, or even many vets to tell me the truth about drugs because they have an economic interest involved in keeping things as they are.

What is clear to me is that a lot of guys are either 100% cheating or skating on a very thin line between cheating and not to enhance performance.

When I read something like this, I am way more apt to believe what this guy is saying than some guy I make 50-50 to be a scumbag. (should that 50-50 comment be in the thread about making an odds line?)
Normally I agree that what vets or trainers state about race day meds have to be taken with the understanding that their thoughts may be tainted because of how they make their bread and butter, but the vet who wrote the article is definitely going against that grain that way.

[thaskalos]

Didn't famed thoroughbred veterinarian Rick Arthur publish a report about 2 years ago, in which he stated that in the vast majority of fatal breakdown cases, the horse had pre-existing trauma right on the same spot where the fatal breakdown took place?

Isn't there something terribly wrong with medicating ailing horses and forcing them to run?

For many years, trainers have been telling us that lasix and bute were necessary in this game because horses would be more "durable" with these drugs. That opinion has turned out to be laughable.

Equally laughable, IMO, is the notion that lasix can be a doping agent for a human athlete...but not for a horse.

[LottaKash]

Equally laughable, IMO, is the notion that lasix can be a doping agent for a human athlete...but not for a horse.

I couldn't agree more with you on the doping issue Thaskalos.....I have always believed strongly about no doping and racing for the horses, as well as the humans....Terrible dual-standard, imo...

Can it be that we don't value the horse as much as we think we do....Of course, we would value human life more, still, I think it is an abomination the way the rules are in place and enforced or not.....Sick, acutually, when the bad guys win, via loopholes in the statutes, along with and often by the apathy that racetracks have been showing in more modern times......

If racing is too survive, it must be cleaned up soon, I think...

Even the hardcore of us, are no longer willing to put up with the way things "Really Are"....There has always been cheating, we all know that, but in today's game, I think the drug thing is way out of control....

Oh well...

best,

best,

[Greyfox]

Horseplayersbet.com
You're right. That is an excellent article. :ThmbUp:
The author is more optimistic than I am though in saying:

"The journey to establish clean horse racing continues. Soon, the horses shall prevail as horses have prevailed through time. Trainers will soon be required to use horsemanship rather than drugs to chalk up a win."

I've seen that type of hope expressed many times before over the years.
Promises. Promises. But the trainers in the suits and sunglasses still do their thing and stay ahead of the curve.

[Robert Fischer]

Very informative.

A little surprised how the article shifted focus on California at the end, but a good read.

[Sysonby]

What is a serious mystery to me is why a jurisdiction like New York allows lasix but doesn't allow nasal strips, which do no damage to the horse whatsoever. What's up with that, NY?

[Tom]

Trainers will soon be required to use horsemanship rather than drugs to chalk up a win."

What will the other half of the trainers do?

Nasal strips banned?????
What possible reason could there for that?

[turninforhome10]

Here is the big quandary to me. Everyone agrees that the drugs in the sport need to be cleaned up. Given. Everyone agrees that our sport has black cloud. Given. Where does the cleanup begin?

IMHO, it has to begin with the breeding. How many more one hit wonders who break down after one big race are gonna be introduced this year? Look at how we rely on horses like MR Prospector and Danzig to continue our breeding. Brilliant,unsound horses riddle the NA ranks. So we breed brilliant unsound animals that have soundness problems. EIPH is also rampant in the genes of our breed. We talk of Bodiemeister having 7 starts this year as if it is too much. 50 years ago this would a short season and he would be questioned for durability. Drugs have been around in the sport for a long time. I have read of the accusations of Bold Ruler running on an early form of Bute and was arthritic. Did not stop him from getting a full book every year. Why? Brilliance. Mr Prospector had ankles. Full Book. Why? Same. Why do we allow known bleeders to reproduce?

Nothing in this sport is gonna change as long buyers are willing to pay top dollar for a hot house baby, bred from an unsound brilliant foundation, that can throw down a 10 flat at 2 yo sale. How many fast breezers at 2yo sales. have won the Derby?
Talk all you want about drugs, we have done this ourselves. The commercial market has allowed for culls to fetch big money because of their parents. I remeber one time inspecting a son of Storm Cat out of champion European stayer mare for a client. The horse was a 800k yearling who never made the races. Upon inspection, the horse had a knee the size of small melon. Did that stop the breeders from flocking to him. Nope. I told the stallion guy after he mentioned that the horse fetched 800k at the yearling sale " That is when two fools met" and left. There really needs to be some regulation on animals allowed to breed on. Until then, we have DuPont horses "better living through chemistry.

[usedtolovetvg]

I was also under the opinion that trainers wanted to get their horses on lasix because it was an ideal masking agent. If so, I'm surprised that wasn't mentioned. The bottom line in is that when money is involved, cheaters will always find a way to cheat. I don't think this article really comes as surprise but it is nice to see it put out there for all to read.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Horseplayersbet.com
You're right. That is an excellent article. :ThmbUp:
The author is more optimistic than I am though in saying:

"The journey to establish clean horse racing continues. Soon, the horses shall prevail as horses have prevailed through time. Trainers will soon be required to use horsemanship rather than drugs to chalk up a win."

I've seen that type of hope expressed many times before over the years.
Promises. Promises. But the trainers in the suits and sunglasses still do their thing and stay ahead of the curve.



Wow I have said this more then once.I myself love to invite owners to our barn just to show them the working of a hands on trainer over a golfcat and grandstand trainer. The horsemanship today is a real joke with really not a care for the horse or the owner Its all about the money. Seem in todays world the only time a horse runs good is when he wins. .I have seen people that care for these horses never putting a dime into the business and not giving a care as to the safty of a horse .Dont get me wrong,There are some very caring people in this business but the wrong doing far out numbers the good for these horses.I and Lisa care for our animals so we know they are safe and well cared for.Its sad to see how they hand out trainers licences just about to anybody.I know a guy who was a hotwalker for 1 year and because he had money,They gave him his licence.So the blame goes on bad horsemanship,Drugs and the system. Of couse this is only MY opinion

[Jeff P]

Link to Gustafson's write up:
http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/25/alkalinization-lasix-and-milkshaking-a-veterinarians-view/

In my opinion, the most disturbing thing in Gustafson's write up is the following paragraph:"It should be noted here, as well, that California allows trainers to take horses on and off Lasix without public knowledge. The attending veterinarians are allowed to use the steroidal estrogen hormone Premarin instead of Lasix. The California attending veterinarians are at liberty to switch out established race-day Lasix administration for race-day Premarin without the public disclosure of the change. All the while the horse is listed on the program as a Lasix horse race after race, despite differing medication regimens from race to race. This can result in significant variations in the type and dosage of administered medications from race to race, with associated alterations in performance. A horse listed as a Lasix horse may legally receive Premarin instead of Lasix. Next race the horse may receive Lasix, or Lasix plus Premarin, or only Premarin. The betting public is not made aware of these medication switches. Potential performance variations because of medication changes are hidden from the public by the California Horse Racing Board. Its regulatory veterinarians are forbidden to disclose the information to anyone but the testing laboratory, so the lab knows why certain Lasix horses do not have Lasix in their urine. The race-to-race medication choices are orchestrated and controlled by the racing veterinarians administering the race-day medications."

Link to our write up about this on the HANA Blog:
http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2012/05/alkalinization-lasix-and-milkshaking.html

I hate to ask the obvious (but have to.)

How can a state regulatory body like the C.H.R.B. have so little regard for the wagering public it was created to protect?



-jp

.

[peeptoad]

How many fast breezers at 2yo sales. have won the Derby?


I'll Have Another just did...

[turninforhome10]

I'll Have Another just did...
You nailed me. Although 10.2 was not the fastest. 9.4 was the fastest for an 1\8th for the sale 10.2 was on the slower side of the curve, thus the 35k price.

[peeptoad]

You nailed me. Although 10.2 was not the fastest. 9.4 was the fastest for an 1\8th for the sale 10.2 was on the slower side of the curve, thus the 35k price.

Don't despair...it's probably the only time you'll ever get nailed by me. I was somehow channeling psychic energy last night and it continued to this morning. I figured out that two friends of mine secretly got married about ten hours before they announced it online, and then IHA's Ocala time just popped into my brain when I read your post. :D

[turninforhome10]

Don't despair...it's probably the only time you'll ever get nailed by me. I was somehow channeling psychic energy last night and it continued to this morning. I figured out that two friends of mine secretly got married about ten hours before they announced it online, and then IHA's Ocala time just popped into my brain when I read your post. :D
Are you posting picks today? :)

[PaceAdvantage]

I was also under the opinion that trainers wanted to get their horses on lasix because it was an ideal masking agent. If so, I'm surprised that wasn't mentioned. The bottom line in is that when money is involved, cheaters will always find a way to cheat. I don't think this article really comes as surprise but it is nice to see it put out there for all to read.If Lasix is such an excellent masking agent, why don't we hear more about humans beating drug tests because of Lasix use?

Or maybe they do and I just don't know about it...

[PaceAdvantage]

What would be the impact on "short-field syndrome" that is currently running rampant across the racing industry if race day medications were banned nationwide? How many racetracks out there would have to cancel "due to lack of entries" if trainers were suddenly restricted from using race day meds?

I guess these are the eggs that must break in order to make that drug-free omelette...

[peeptoad]

Are you posting picks today? :)

...only if I want to try to keep my losing streak alive. ;)

[Horseplayersbet.com]

What would be the impact on "short-field syndrome" that is currently running rampant across the racing industry if race day medications were banned nationwide? How many racetracks out there would have to cancel "due to lack of entries" if trainers were suddenly restricted from using race day meds?

I guess these are the eggs that must break in order to make that drug-free omelette...
I've thought about that. Back in the 60's horses ran on average more than twice as much as they do today. No question that they were testing for a lot less back then, but the purses were relatively much smaller making the cost of using even untestable drugs somewhat of a deterrent I would imagine.

So lets say the doomsday sayers are correct and 25% of horses will not be able to race. Well, if 75% of the remaining horses race twice as much collectively, we would actually see much larger fields than we do today.

[PaceAdvantage]

But why would these horses suddenly start racing twice as much?

[Horseplayersbet.com]

But why would these horses suddenly start racing twice as much?
I think there is a common belief that Lasix and other drugs are draining on the horse which means they don't race back as quickly.
Now, the other argument is that these drugs, Lasix included of course, and breeding for yearlings to do a 10.2 quarter has weakened the breed, and if true, horses won't be able to run twice as much right away, and maybe it will take two or three generations of breeding horses who didn't rely on drugs so much to strengthen the breed again.

[valueguy]

Is there a list somewhere that indicates what states and provinces ban
needle induced meds on race day? Is there any that do?

thanks

[forced89]

Back when I started in this business we ran exclusively on bute and ice. We could use Lasix only if the State Vet verified that the horse had bled either in a race or a workout. Back then the purses were low and we did every thing we could to minimize vet bills. Out of financial necessity we ran most of our low level claimers every 7 to 10 days. When the horses started to tail off we turned them out for a couple of months. Even so we would get anywhere from 12 to 20 starts from most of them during the year.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Back when I started in this business we ran exclusively on bute and ice. We could use Lasix only if the State Vet verified that the horse had bled either in a race or a workout. Back then the purses were low and we did every thing we could to minimize vet bills. Out of financial necessity we ran most of our low level claimers every 7 to 10 days. When the horses started to tail off we turned them out for a couple of months. Even so we would get anywhere from 12 to 20 starts from most of them during the year.
Were the bute levels and cut off dates the same as today?
More importantly, do you think that a horse who uses more than just bute and ice is more drained and incapable of making the same 12 to 20 starts, in general?

[forced89]

It was almost 50 years ago and I don't remember the levels and cut offs for bute. I suspect they more liberal than today. And I'm not smart enough to know if today's medication practices are having a negative effect on soundness, but if I had to guess, I'd say they do. Particularly the almost automatic use of lasix.

[outofthebox]

I'd love to run my horses more often. And using lasix is not the problem. My maidens get to run once every 5 weeks if i'm lucky. The races here in La. overfill and you have to wait your time. The higher claiming horses have to worry about their races filling. I race all my horses on lasix. I don't see it as a problem as long as they are properly hydrated following the race. I've never used lasix as a "mask" for other drugs. Are you kidding me. If your using illegal drugs lasix is not going to keep it from testing. I received a banamine positive awhile back given at the proper time (24 hours). So much for lasix masking drugs!

[BIG49010]

I received a banamine positive awhile back given at the proper time (24 hours). So much for lasix masking drugs!

I was told one time by a well regarded trainer, that many of the positives were perhaps sloppy vet work or record keeping on the part of the trainers staff, at the time I thought it was B.S. , after reading your comment I think it was a truthful comment.

[usedtolovetvg]

What would be the impact on "short-field syndrome" that is currently running rampant across the racing industry if race day medications were banned nationwide? How many racetracks out there would have to cancel "due to lack of entries" if trainers were suddenly restricted from using race day meds?

I guess these are the eggs that must break in order to make that drug-free omelette...

Less racetracks, less race dates, less races = less horses needed. Looks like that may be the direction racing is headed n e way. Mitt would be proud. Capitalism in its purest form at work. May not really be a bad thing either to get racing back on track.

[DeanT]

How can a state regulatory body like the C.H.R.B. have so little regard for the wagering public it was created to protect?



-jp

.

Cuz they cater to the horseman's group?

How else can you explain a 4 time TCO2 offender getting 45 days? If it was in another jurisdiction, it'd likely be 3 years.

Hold it, we don't even have precedent on that, because there's never been a 4th time TCO2 offender in the history of North American thoroughbred racing.

The more I learn about California racing, the more their 50%+ handle losses the past eight or ten years makes perfect sense.

[PaceAdvantage]

I was told one time by a well regarded trainer, that many of the positives were perhaps sloppy vet work or record keeping on the part of the trainers staff, at the time I thought it was B.S. , after reading your comment I think it was a truthful comment.The truth is, there's LOTS of sloppy going on...from trainers, to vets, to hired help...you name it...

To believe that the majority of drug positives is somehow deliberate or meant to "cheat" is absurd.

If the penalties were stiffened severely, and the rules applied uniformly throughout the nation, you can bet your bottom dollar that the sloppiness and "no big deal" attitude that currently pervades would disappear quickly.

[5k-claim]

The truth is, there's LOTS of sloppy going on...from trainers, to vets, to hired help...you name it...

To believe that the majority of drug positives is somehow deliberate or meant to "cheat" is absurd.It is encouraging to see this pointed out by the (or at least one of the) most respected contributors here. Hopefully that means the idea can sink in with others.

It is at the very least lazy... incredibly lazy... for veteran handicappers who have watched races for years or even decades to just automatically make the jump from "drug positive" to "cheater" without even slowing down to consider the details. It is showing up now with the Doug O'Neill suspension in California. For specific groups of handicappers that want a "seat at the table" in the industry, and to be respected and valued, to not be able to make distinctions between drug positives really is a step backwards for them. It looks silly.

If the penalties were stiffened severely, and the rules applied uniformly throughout the nation, you can bet your bottom dollar that the sloppiness and "no big deal" attitude that currently pervades would disappear quickly. Absolutely ships would run tighter. And they should.

But of course all mistakes are not going to disappear. At least not as long as humans are involved in some way in the process. Even with perfectly legal drugs, feeding (especially at night) and medication (sometimes at night) mistakes are still going to happen from time to time. And by mistake I mean anything from wrong feed+meds to the wrong horse to simply right feed+meds but at the wrong time (too close to race)- and everything in between. And simple contaminations, as well. And different rules in different jurisdictions. And sloppily coming up with a too close withdrawal time procedure. Etc.

I guess there are industries out there that run entirely mistake-free, but ours is not really one of them. But I do agree that more uniform and consistent penalties would cause a big decrease in this regard. It would be a step in the right direction. But it needs a meaningful dose of COMMON SENSE to go along with it... the whole mentality cannot be "... Drug Positive! Those lousy bastards are out to CHEAT ME out of my Pick-4 ticket again! They don't respect me! Off with their heads!"

That's just stupid. Or bitching from the sheer ecstasy of having something to conceivably bitch about... which is always a possibility with some- but clearly not all- people.

.

[Gallop58]

But it needs a meaningful dose of COMMON SENSE to go along with it... the whole mentality cannot be "... Drug Positive! Those lousy bastards are out to CHEAT ME out of my Pick-4 ticket again! They don't respect me! Off with their heads!".

We now have a long history with performance cheats in various athletic endeavours and it's clear that the few rotten apples spoil it for everyone else.
I don't think there's room for common sense in this area, unfortunately.
If you look at the Ontario TCO2 program, I think they have it right. If you have a positive test, you have the right to have your horse go in detention on hay, oats and water. If the horse is naturally >37 you can go on with life.
Sounds reasonable. If all of a sudden it drops to 32. Sorry buddy.

I think we know that most guys with positives are "titrators" that push it to the limit and sometimes go over.

Seems jurisdictions are conflicted re: the evil here (tubing or alkanizing?) What does the AAEP say about alkanizing (I can't recall a position paper) Of course they'll say tubing is barbaric (unless performed by due's paying AAEP vets) but for all I know they think all horses should be on bicarb as well as Lasix...After all it prevents fatigue which we all know is the leading reason for injury. They'd probably be ok with EPO if it didn't have cardiac sludging risks....(but I digress :) )

What I find funny is that the 37 (or 39) limit is supposed to include the "margins for error" ie. there's already room for various errors to be accounted for.
The TCO2 problem seems straightforward to me (assuming you think it should be illegal). Publish all TC02 tests with horse names (not my idea, The Sheets guy I think wanted this) and require a TCO2 test before you start training for a baseline. (Maybe add in the publishing the attending vets name in the Form while you're at it..)

I can just imagine the data... 38.9,36.7,35,32,38.8,39.0....
Now we'd get into a whole other mess re: owners privacy rights, is it good for racing (like the injury database), etc etc.
It will be interesting when the NY Times or someone else goes after the TCO2 data from various tracks under freedom of information. I wonder how many 39.4's there will be that weren't reported or filed under "typo". Probably too late to get the data before the Belmont for a nice juicy expose....

In the long run I think you need the (expensive) FEI/Olympic passport standards. These days you basically have to record your biomedical fingerprint and they can toss you for hormones out of line, even with no positive drug test..Theoretically catch cheaters who use yet to be determined drugs...

But this is the same issue in all pro sports currently. Do enough to keep the public happy, but don't do more than you need to. Put out the flames when they rise up.

The part I don't get is that "amateur" sport, the one with the least amount of money sloshing around has the highest standard and most expensive drug testing. Seems upside down until you realize that they needed to do it to remain legitimate or risk becoming irrelevant (sound familiar?)
No one gets congratulated by being really proactive, you just get internet grumps pointing to your data and interpretting it as evidence of a problem. Shame, but real life I guess...

[CincyHorseplayer]

What is a human being doing taking lasix?Milkshakes are another story.I had one this morning.Lasix?That's out of control,even for a vet.What did he do the 5 furlongs in?

[5k-claim]

If you look at the Ontario TCO2 program, I think they have it right. If you have a positive test, you have the right to have your horse go in detention on hay, oats and water. If the horse is naturally >37 you can go on with life. Sounds reasonable. If all of a sudden it drops to 32. Sorry buddy. Really nice post Gallop, where the heck did you come from?

Yeah, I think I heard about this before. And I agree- it sounds perfectly reasonable to me, as well. Sure, that would be a big-ass pain in the butt to have to let your horse stick around someplace (for how many days?) if you have driven for hours and shipped in to the track, but I assume once a baseline has been established for that particular horse they can just use it from then on? Again, I do not hate that procedure. You can always find a way to get your horse back home- especially if it's just once.

I think we know that most guys with positives are "titrators" that push it to the limit and sometimes go over.I don't mind some uniform and consistent drug policies. I am ultra-chicken when it comes to drug positives, so I add one extra day to nearly everything, but yes there are some guys who appear to subtract a day... quite the policy. Personally, I guess I sometimes think of things using the "How Bad Would I Want to Punch This Guy in the Face if He Had an Overage of 'X' When He Beat Me in a Race" Meter. For ulcer meds or even some NSAIDs or Lasix or maybe even some breathing aids, probably not too much. But those TCO2s are a little different with me... those I am less calm about. I might be willing to take a swing in some of those situations. Generally, after a loss I know some things I either screwed up or could have done better, so I usually don't even think about drugs- or the other guys. (All I can really do is just hope that the testing is good, and will always continue to get better. I just concentrate on worrying about myself.)

Seems jurisdictions are conflicted re: the evil here (tubing or alkanizing?) What does the AAEP say about alkanizing (I can't recall a position paper) Of course they'll say tubing is barbaric (unless performed by due's paying AAEP vets) but for all I know they think all horses should be on bicarb as well as Lasix...After all it prevents fatigue which we all know is the leading reason for injury. They'd probably be ok with EPO if it didn't have cardiac sludging risks....(but I digress :) ) Ha! Careful... you are getting dangerously close to my own reason for supporting the use of Lasix in the treatment/prevention of long-term and repeated EIPH episodes. The obvious problem would be that guys would just have more options (including longer races) to enter their horses, and would just bump their horses up against the dangerous fatigue wall regardless. So the help to horses would be limited, unfortunately. (It never matters where you put a horse's edge, some guys will just go to it anyways...)


In the long run I think you need the (expensive) FEI/Olympic passport standards. These days you basically have to record your biomedical fingerprint and they can toss you for hormones out of line, even with no positive drug test..Theoretically catch cheaters who use yet to be determined drugs...

But this is the same issue in all pro sports currently. Do enough to keep the public happy, but don't do more than you need to. Put out the flames when they rise up.

The part I don't get is that "amateur" sport, the one with the least amount of money sloshing around has the highest standard and most expensive drug testing. Seems upside down until you realize that they needed to do it to remain legitimate or risk becoming irrelevant (sound familiar?)
No one gets congratulated by being really proactive, you just get internet grumps pointing to your data and interpretting it as evidence of a problem. Shame, but real life I guess... Well, my TCO2 levels are going down and I am just about fatigued of the whole drug (meaning, Lasix) debate these days. I am very close to just GIVING IN. (Despite my absolute confidence in those professionals who I have sought advice from not only on this issue, but every other medical issue that comes up with my horses. Quite the wacky concept... trusting the professionals who I trust with the very lives of my horses every day. What could they know about the health of horses?)

But if I do decide to give in, I want a promise from all fan/handicapper/media/horse sellers communities. I want them to say that they will let U.S. racing run under the EXACT same drug policies as the vaunted clean Europeans use. And be tested with the EXACT same tests. EXACTLY the same.

If that is what everyone is wishing for...

.

[Charli125]

To believe that the majority of drug positives is somehow deliberate or meant to "cheat" is absurd.

Then what do you think is the cause of the majority of drug positives?

I don't see how it can be anything other than pushing the limit on how soon before the race you need to give the drugs(or how much you can give). I think it's doing as much as possible to improve your horse, up to and sometimes over the line.

5K Claim says that he sometimes leaves an extra day than required, which is a great way to make sure you don't have any overages. I think a lot of trainers are going one day less and hoping things work out so they don't test positive.

So yeah, their intent is not to "cheat" anyone, but isn't that a deliberate thing they're doing, and isn't it against the rules?

[PaceAdvantage]

Then what do you think is the cause of the majority of drug positives?

I don't see how it can be anything other than pushing the limit on how soon before the race you need to give the drugs(or how much you can give). I think it's doing as much as possible to improve your horse, up to and sometimes over the line.

5K Claim says that he sometimes leaves an extra day than required, which is a great way to make sure you don't have any overages. I think a lot of trainers are going one day less and hoping things work out so they don't test positive.

So yeah, their intent is not to "cheat" anyone, but isn't that a deliberate thing they're doing, and isn't it against the rules?Pushing the envelope wouldn't be deliberate cheating in my book. They're hoping they time things just perfectly such that they don't trigger a positive.

Maybe it will work in their favor, and maybe it won't. Maybe they'll go over that line you speak of, but maybe they won't. I wouldn't term that deliberate cheating, because sometimes, they're not going to trigger a positive.

The reason they do this is because the penalties are too damn light. It's WORTH IT to try and push that envelope and get whatever tiny edge they think they can milk from the system.

The system needs to be changed.

[so.cal.fan]

California and I suspect NY, has always had a problem with the State being unable to pay for complete post race tests.
Back in the 70's there was a lot of illegal medicating going on, often by leading trainers, both in Calif. and NY.
In the 80's, a former investigator for the CHRB told us that these state lab tests were very expensive and just couldn't be done effectively.
At that time, they were hundreds of dollars, don't know if this has increased or decreased. It would be interesting to know what the cost of a complete lab test costs in California.

California is near bankruptcy. How can they possibly test horses properly?
Who pays for this now?
If I know this, so do all the trainers/owners and vets. This unfortunate situation invites those stables with lots of $$$$ to enhance their horses chances. I'm not saying they are doing this, but who knows?

We watch horses in paddocks, back in the 70's, you could detect a horse who had been stimulated. It was quite obvious to a trained eye.
These days, you can't really do that, at least not in So. Cal.

The officials try their best to control this situation, and when some greedy owner or trainer gets to blatant, they DO test their horses, and their very high win %s decrease.

Still, they can't test them all, all the time.....so PA is correct. The system needs to be changed. There must be an answer?

[Charli125]

Pushing the envelope wouldn't be deliberate cheating in my book. They're hoping they time things just perfectly such that they don't trigger a positive.

Maybe it will work in their favor, and maybe it won't. Maybe they'll go over that line you speak of, but maybe they won't. I wouldn't term that deliberate cheating, because sometimes, they're not going to trigger a positive.

The reason they do this is because the penalties are too damn light. It's WORTH IT to try and push that envelope and get whatever tiny edge they think they can milk from the system.

The system needs to be changed.

Agreed with the bolded part. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be consensus among any of the primary stakeholders so the chances of changing the system are slim.

[Charli125]

California is near bankruptcy. How can they possibly test horses properly?
Who pays for this now?
If I know this, so do all the trainers/owners and vets. This unfortunate situation invites those stables with lots of $$$$ to enhance their horses chances. I'm not saying they are doing this, but who knows?

The costs are certainly an issue, but when you have 10's of millions of dollars going to various racing related entities in CA, it's pretty easy to free up the money. Roger Way sent an email, which I unfortunately can't find, which showed all of the places that the takeout goes in CA. There were over 20 organizations, most of which I'd never heard of, that were receiving very material amounts of funding. Maybe someone has this information because I found it very interesting.

What I did find is that the CHRB spent 11.3 million dollars last year. I'm not saying there isn't a need for the CHRB but that's an insane amount of money which I'm sure could be spent more efficiently if required.

At the end of the day, the system needs a major overhaul.

[BIG49010]

Pushing the envelope wouldn't be deliberate cheating in my book. They're hoping they time things just perfectly such that they don't trigger a positive.

Maybe it will work in their favor, and maybe it won't. Maybe they'll go over that line you speak of, but maybe they won't. I wouldn't term that deliberate cheating, because sometimes, they're not going to trigger a positive.

The reason they do this is because the penalties are too damn light. It's WORTH IT to try and push that envelope and get whatever tiny edge they think they can milk from the system.

The system needs to be changed.

The smart ones don't take a chance, they pre-test before they run when they try a new product. I think this is why you see horses off now 30-45 days between races, with a few works that really should be races.

I was told over the weekend, one trainer took the drug salesman's word, and it ended with a 5000 dollar fine / 3 month suspension / loss of all purse money, then his client.

[1st time lasix]

Instead of beating around the bush...asking vet experts ....and reading 'studies" ......why doesn't someone from DRF or other major media forum simply ask Jamie Ness and others from Midwest stable what they do and how they do it. Certainly no handicapper or race observer with any long term experience doesn't believe he cheats. Makes me sick that he is defrauding people and getting away with it. Racing jurisdictions are so disfunctional....he will likely be put in the Hall of Fame rather than the Hall of Shame. :blush: