How Dumb Is Mountaineer

[Buddha]

I am just reading a couple of articles that were posted in the local paper about the ongoing dispute with HPBA and MNR managment. The way I see it, management is trying to get bare minimum everything.

I have a couple of questions that I wondered about. Most have something to do with the ongoing dispute here at MNR.

At most tracks, who sets the purse structure and has access to change it? Would it be the HBPA or the track?

How far do most tracks pay to? I thought it was to about 6th place.

Why would the HBPA want more cheaper races? Why not just have the horsemen try to get some better horses? I mean we are talking a difference of $4000-$7500 or so. I don't think it should be that tough, and if you don't have the access to $7500 or $10,000 animals, then why shouldnt you have to wait to find a race for your horse.

How many assistant starters are at most tracks? Horsemen here want 12, I think they have about 8 now and management is offering 10. I think it would all in all be safer to have 12, even if you have to pay them mroe each week.

If you want to read the whole article, it is at http://www.reviewonline.com/news/story/0162004_new01evictions010604.asp for now. Don't know how long it will be there, but I will archive it to my page later today. Also there is another article if you want to read http://www.reviewonline.com/news/story/0162004_new02banned010604.asp

[JustMissed]

Hey Buddha,

What is the current stall fee and how many stalls do you guys have?

JustMissed

[Buddha]

Originally posted by JustMissed
Hey Buddha,

What is the current stall fee and how many stalls do you guys have?

JustMissed

I thought I was told there was no stall fees for the horsemen, and then MNR told them they werent allowed access to the track for training, and then said htey could pay a $8 a day stall fee and keep it. I would guess there are about 20 or so barns. Not sure how many stalls.

I guess it would be a good time to have your own farm and train off the farm :)

[sjk]

I guess the starting gate does hold 12 but I only show 24 races in the last 5 years with more than 10 starters.

Most tracks we have run at pay to 4th or 5th.

I think the condition book should reflect the horse population on the grounds, not what it could be. It is a very frustrating and expensive situation when a horse is ready and you can't get him in a race.

[trying2win]

Buddha,

Do they have a thoroughbred B-circuit for cheap horses in West Virginia? If not, perhaps that's what they need there, so owners can race their horses once every 3 or 4 weeks, instead of every
5 or 6 weeks. They have B-circuits here in some provinces in Canada. For those Canadian owners on the A-circuit who can't get enough races or their cheaper stock can't compete, they have the option of shipping them to the B-circuit tracks.

Must be difficult to pay the bills for your horse, if they only race once every 6 weeks. I think I read somewhere that it costs approximately $1000 to $1200 a month just to own a thoroughbred. If I'm wrong in that estimate, please correct me.

Thanks,

Trying2win

[Buddha]

Originally posted by sjk
I guess the starting gate does hold 12 but I only show 24 races in the last 5 years with more than 10 starters.

Most tracks we have run at pay to 4th or 5th.

I think the condition book should reflect the horse population on the grounds, not what it could be. It is a very frustrating and expensive situation when a horse is ready and you can't get him in a race.

The starting gate holds 12, but only stakes races have 12. The norm is 10, but even then, they usually only have 1 starter per 2 horses. Most tracks have 1 starter per horse, with a couple behind the gate. As for paying to tenth, I think that is a bit ridiculous. Likie you stated, I thought most tracks didnt go past 6th.

Originally posted by trying2win
Buddha,

Do they have a thoroughbred B-circuit for cheap horses in West Virginia? If not, perhaps that's what they need there, so owners can race their horses once every 3 or 4 weeks, instead of every
5 or 6 weeks. They have B-circuits here in some provinces in Canada. For those Canadian owners on the A-circuit who can't get enough races or their cheaper stock can't compete, they have the option of shipping them to the B-circuit tracks.

Must be difficult to pay the bills for your horse, if they only race once every 6 weeks. I think I read somewhere that it costs approximately $1000 to $1200 a month just to own a thoroughbred. If I'm wrong in that estimate, please correct me.

Thanks,

Trying2win

THere is no B circuit, but within a reasonable 3 hour drive, there is Thistledown and Beulah in ohio, but the purses are at most half of MNRs, if not less. You are about right. People around here say it is about $1000 a month.

[Buddha]

And as for there not being enough races, the hold about 2 or 3 if not more MDN4000 races, and I feel more than a fair share of 4000 lifetime and calendar condition (i.e. nw1 6m, nw2 y) races, but i guess even the number they run isnt enough for hte horsemen.

[Zaf]

Why don't they run 12 horse fields ? Safety factor ?

ZAFONIC

[Buddha]

Originally posted by zafonic
Why don't they run 12 horse fields ? Safety factor ?

ZAFONIC

I was told by one of the jock agents that the track really isnt wide enough to accomodate it, especially around the turns in like mile races or races close to the turns. plus, they prolly dont have enough gate people. would make for some crazy betting and great paying exotics though.

[TonyK@HSH]

Originally posted by Buddha
Why would the HBPA want more cheaper races? Why not just have the horsemen try to get some better horses? I mean we are talking a difference of $4000-$7500 or so. I don't think it should be that tough, and if you don't have the access to $7500 or $10,000 animals, then why shouldnt you have to wait to find a race for your horse.


Buddha,

I may be able to shed some light on this one as this attitude is also prevalent at C.T.
Right now the horseman at MNR and C.T. are running some very inexpensive horses for some huge pots. Horses capable of winning these bottom level maiden/claiming races can be bought pretty cheap as castoffs in Md, Jersey, Pa, etc. MNR owners and trainers can acquire horses for less than $5000 that are a cinch to win $10000-$15000 purses. Not a bad financial transaction.
Also, if you own a solid $4000-$5000 claimer, they can easily bankroll $25000+. This is another strong return on investment.
The purse structure and distribution is based on horse wagers and slots. Typically, the distribution of purses is based on an average amount per day. This daily distribution would stay level even if more 'expensive' races were written. The result would be a reduced purse structure per claiming level.
The horsemen at some of the small 'slot-aided' tracks have quite a coup. The have managed to keep the same lower classed horses that used to compete for $1500 pots and now have them run for $10000+ pots. Better horses simply mean that horsemen would pay more for horses that would compete for the same purses than cheaper ones do today.

Tony

[Buddha]

Originally posted by TonyK@HSH
Buddha,


The purse structure and distribution is based on horse wagers and slots. Typically, the distribution of purses is based on an average amount per day. This daily distribution would stay level even if more 'expensive' races were written. The result would be a reduced purse structure per claiming level.
Tony

This part doesnt seem to be at Mountaineer. They have their prices for each level and no matter what is being run that day for instance, it could be 10 $4000 races and the MDN 4000 will still be running for a pot of 10,300. Now if you have a day with 3 allowances, 2 10,000 claimers, 4 $4000 eligibility claimers, and a maiden 4000, it still has a $10,300 purse. at mountaineer it doesnt appear to matter what else is running that day, all the classes have their purses.

I agree with the rest of your post about having cheap horses running for more. I just don't understand why they don't try to get better horses instead of staying cheap. in my opinion, i would want to maybe win with a 4000 claimer, pocket say 20,000 in purses if the horse doesnt get claimed, take that 20000 and get a 10000 horse, race for more money, and get better horses that way, but these cheap owners don't seem to want to do that.

[Zaf]

It would seem logical that the stock would improve. This has happened at many tracks after they acquired the Slots.

ZAFONIC

[Zaf]

Miss the night action at the Mountain the last couple of nights.

ZAFONIC

[JustMissed]

Great thread guys!

Once you can figure out the relationship between the trainer and the condition book-you're miles ahead of the other players.

JustMissed

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by zafonic
Miss the night action at the Mountain the last couple of nights.

ZAFONIC

they picked some pretty good nights to take off......it's cold as hell down there this week. I am two or so hours from the Mountain and it's about 10 Fahrenheit here. I watched the Dishnetwork guy working outside my house tonight installing a Dish....man...what a job he has. I took good care of him with hot chocolate and a dinner invite, but he was here until 9p and only got two of four rooms wired. when he went to put a couple connectors on outside the house the cable snapped. That's pretty cold. He will be back tomorrow.

[mountainman]

traditionally, a track's condition book is tooled to accomodate the horses stabled there(in mountaineer's case that's 1200 stalls and a no vacancy sign at the gate)..but given mountaineer's somewhat unique status as a recent and slot-rich arrival on the national scene, our racing secretary has the unenviable , dual assignment of carding attractive, upscale races to entice classy ship in stables(think bernard flint) while at the same time keeping a highly organized(and vocal) sect of deeply entrenched local trainers happy..it's a tuff transition and a tricky balancing act.. most horsemen believe that the secretarie's SOLE responsibility is to accomodate the highest possible number of locally stabled animals... but the racing secretary serves many masters and must never forget a simple fact that horsemen rarely remember..the whole point of thoroughbred racing is THE PUBLIC........don't get me wrong-a surplus of rock btm condition horses is not always a bad thing, and has in fact enabled mountaineer to attain an avg. field size(over 9 per race) that few(if any) yr-round racetracks can match....but at some point (often when deciding during the entry process which "book" races will be used)the secretary must act in the public's best interest and favor higher class races...........

mountaineer's purse structure(since hitting the current plateau in early 2002) is tooled to distribute an avg of 170k per day based on exhaustive dry runs(and periodic review) of the races we actually "make."...so, in other words, as long as local horsemen, lacking the means and or desire to upgrade, can successfully stall the wheels of progress and insist that mountaineer card 5 bottom claiming races per day, these 4k claimers will(for better or worse) continue to carry gargantuan purses..................unfortunate constraints aside, management is far from outflanked, and has responded by pouring a disproportionate percentage of purses into mdn alw and nw-life allowances in the belief that such races can be attractive features and also serve as a farm system for future features......

please be aware( if u play the mountain)that big purses on bottom races are, to some degree, forced on management, and by no means intended as a disincentive for horsemen to upgrade.

[Tom]

Your handle caught my eye....Mountain Man was my all-time favorite horse. He raced at Finger Lakes during the 70's and was the track favorite for many years. His claim to fame was that FL held a Stake race that traditionally drew in NYRA boys to grab an easy purse. Mountain Man showed them all how to run when he not only won the 9 furlong stake but it was later learned he had broken a bone in his foot during the race and was laid up the rest of the year. In those days, a FL horse beating NYRA shippers was a big an upset as Onion drubbing Secretariart. I think the favorite's name was Terrible Tiger in that race.
Anyway, welcome to the board. You made my night already :D

[Zaf]

Hey Mountain man,

As long as you keep carding FULL FIELDS 4 - 5 nights a week, I really don't care if they are 4K claimers or 25K claimers. The big fields make for a lot of value and easy throw outs, a win-win situation.

Sure it would be nice to have some classier horses/races etc, but whenever you have a 5 - 6 horse field it seems to be in an ALW or STK race. Lets keep as many full fields as possible.

ZAFONIC

[mountainman]

hey zafonic..glad you approve of our product..and i do agree that field size is important to players,and we do take pride at the mountain in the quantity we offer... but, i will risk an admission that might be blaspheme to bottom-line bettors...because the fact is, that when i play horses(especially at tracks i'm not all that familiar with) i APPRECIATE an occasional 7 or even 6 horse respite from all the difficult to decipher "battle scene from braveheart" big field opportunities for larger scores..

your point is well taken............................................. .....................
a good field of 4k claimers CAN be just as compelling as any alw race..provided contention runs deep enuf to ensure value,some contestants are consistent with clearly defined running styles, and the chalk looks beatable..or even perhaps if one of your own particular "pet" angles comes into play...but all too often at too many tracks(mountaineer hopefully excluded) EVERY horse in a bad btm condition race appears to be an easy pitchout and at that point , the handicapper is reduced to finding the sort of "lesser of evils" selection that is not a profitable way to play the races........just my opinion and i appreciate your common sense reply to my posting

[Buddha]

Originally posted by mountainman
traditionally, a track's condition book is tooled to accomodate the horses stabled there(in mountaineer's case that's 1200 stalls and a no vacancy sign at the gate)..but given mountaineer's somewhat unique status as a recent and slot-rich arrival on the national scene, our racing secretary has the unenviable , dual assignment of carding attractive, upscale races to entice classy ship in stables(think bernard flint) while at the same time keeping a highly organized(and vocal) sect of deeply entrenched local trainers happy..it's a tuff transition and a tricky balancing act.. most horsemen believe that the secretarie's SOLE responsibility is to accomodate the highest possible number of locally stabled animals... but the racing secretary serves many masters and must never forget a simple fact that horsemen rarely remember..the whole point of thoroughbred racing is THE PUBLIC........don't get me wrong-a surplus of rock btm condition horses is not always a bad thing, and has in fact enabled mountaineer to attain an avg. field size(over 9 per race) that few(if any) yr-round racetracks can match....but at some point (often when deciding during the entry process which "book" races will be used)the secretary must act in the public's best interest and favor higher class races...........

mountaineer's purse structure(since hitting the current plateau in early 2002) is tooled to distribute an avg of 170k per day based on exhaustive dry runs(and periodic review) of the races we actually "make."...so, in other words, as long as local horsemen, lacking the means and or desire to upgrade, can successfully stall the wheels of progress and insist that mountaineer card 5 bottom claiming races per day, these 4k claimers will(for better or worse) continue to carry gargantuan purses..................unfortunate constraints aside, management is far from outflanked, and has responded by pouring a disproportionate percentage of purses into mdn alw and nw-life allowances in the belief that such races can be attractive features and also serve as a farm system for future features......

please be aware( if u play the mountain)that big purses on bottom races are, to some degree, forced on management, and by no means intended as a disincentive for horsemen to upgrade.

As to the condition book, if they are traditionally written to what is on grounds, it would be hard to get better horses in since they would mostly be all $4000 stock then, right? If the majority are written for those, how would they ever get the majority, or more for say $10000 stock, especially since the small owners are always complaining that they can't get their horses in?

[mountainman]

bingo buddha........and since the locally-stabled trainers are more organized and have more clout in HBPA affairs, they can agressively push an agenda(and they have various proposals to achieve this) that minimizes opportunities for classier invaders to compete here......i realize this is a generalization and is by no means intended to disparage local horsemen who have followed dale baird's lead and upgraded to stay competitive..............

hey??? are u going nuts with no racing at the mountain??? i sure am................

[sjk]

I don't know what to do on Monday and Tuesday nights. Are the disputes resolved? What will the racing schedule look like later in the month?

[Zaf]

Mountain Man,

Yes I agree with you about the 4K fields at MNR. An open 4K claimer at MNR probably contains better stock than 8K claimers elsewhere. Well maybe not but I have found many interesting betting opportunities in the MNR 4K claiming races.


I cannot bet bottom claimers at BEU, TDN, FL etc. It is just not the same as the Mountain. Like you said Mountain Man, fields full of pitchouts.

Hopefully MNR will return soon !!!

ZAFONIC

[Alc]

Settled. Racing to resume 1/19/04. Article at www.thoroughbredtimes.com.