Even if IHA wins the triple crown......

[Producer]

isn't Bodemeister still a much more valuable Stallion prospect?

[Saratoga_Mike]

isn't Bodemeister still a much more valuable Stallion prospect?

no

[Producer]

no



Not saying I agree or disagree, but care to explain why not?

[tucker6]

Not saying I agree or disagree, but care to explain why not?
based on your queston, you obviously disagree. Why do you feel Bodemeister would be a better stallion prospect?

[Saratoga_Mike]

Not saying I agree or disagree, but care to explain why not?

You asked which horse would be a more valuable stallion prospect.

Valuable stalllion prospect - to me, that means what can the horse be sold for right after he's done racing.

If IHA wins the Triple Crown, there's zero chance he isn't worth more than Bode as a stallion. How many Triple Crown winning stallions are there currently?

Now if you want a call on which horse will ultimately produce better progeny, I wouldn't want to make that call.

[Producer]

based on your queston, you obviously disagree. Why do you feel Bodemeister would be a better stallion prospect?


I simply can't imagine an offspring of Flower Alley being very sought after as a stallion regardless of what races he wins on the track.

I will be the first to say I am no where near an expert in breeding, not even close. It just seems to me an ultra-fast, ultra-talented and the best son of Empire Maker to date would be much more valuable. Especially considering the way we breed for speed in this country.

[Greyfox]

I simply can't imagine an offspring of Flower Alley being very sought after as a stallion regardless of what races he wins on the track.



Winning a Triple Crown is a huge lure for a breeding shed.
I'll Have Another would have that status and assuming that he's not impotent he would likely earn far more for as a sire than Bodemeister.

The pedigree of I'll Have Another is at:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/ill+have+another2

The pedigree of Bodemeister is at:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/bodemeister

[Leparoux]

No, not at all.

[turninforhome10]

First thing, Empire Maker is in Japan. The need for a son of Empire Maker in the US would be minimal. Toussaud was a great mare for producing but her stallions other than maybe Chester House have not had the impact that their race record would suggest. Civilisation stands in WV. Chiselling and Decarchy have not been big producers. That being said Bodemiester being a grandson of Unbridled and sporting the class in his female family would be the draw. A speedy grandson of Unbridled would sell well. I could see him standing for 7.5-10k easy. Zayat already has a son of Empire Maker in Pioneerofthenile. Empire Maker has also been much better with his mares than his boys
http://www.pedigreequery.com/progeny/empire+maker
I'll Have Another is proving that Distorted Humor is going to be a sire of sires. The fact that Flower Alley hit so early and with such heights in this case, might give an inkling that Flower Alley is the best Distorted Humor going. Standing at 3 Chimmneys is a big edge as Flower Alley's book should continue to attract the best. If we get a Triple Crown from IHA than I would put IHA between 30-50k conservatively.

To put this all into perspective, I am sure breeders were more anxious for Affirmed over Alydar in the beginning, but 3yrs later that changed in a big way.
All this being said Bodiemiester is from Family number 1 which has been a very successful stallion family
http://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricDams/EngFoundationMares/Family1/Family1.html
IHA is from family number 23 which ironically is the same family as Affirmed and has been a modest stallion producing line.
http://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricDams/EngFoundationMares/Family23/Family23.html

And so wee can all be on the same page about the families see here
http://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricDams/FamilyNumbers.html

[Saratoga_Mike]

If IHA wins the Belmont, I think he'll sell for at least $80 mm to $100 mm as a stallion. He may prove a lousy stallion (I have no opinion on that), but he'll go for a ton of money.

[Tom]

If IHA wins the Triple Crown......

Laffit Pincay Jr. "Doug, what are you going to do now that you won the triple crown?"

Doug, "We're going to Disneyland. For about 45 days or so.":rolleyes:

[highnote]

You asked which horse would be a more valuable stallion prospect.

Valuable stalllion prospect - to me, that means what can the horse be sold for right after he's done racing.

If IHA wins the Triple Crown, there's zero chance he isn't worth more than Bode as a stallion. How many Triple Crown winning stallions are there currently?
.

After Affirmed won the Triple Crown over Alydar -- who was the more valuable stallion?

[Steve R]

After Affirmed won the Triple Crown over Alydar -- who was the more valuable stallion?
Certainly it was Alydar over Affirmed but the difference is that both were legitimate classic horses of similar ability and the former was from a legendary female line and by one of the greatest sire of sires in history. I think I'll Have Another is genuinely a classic type even if well below the talent level of the other two and a bit lacking in pedigree. Bodemeister, OTOH, is just another quality 8-9f speed type with a decent but not exceptional pedigree. Simply on the basis of relative accomplishment the Derby/Preakness winner is a more valuable asset. Bodemeister is indistinguishable in terms of accomplishment and pedigree from dozens of others of similar type.

[JustRalph]

If IHA wins the Triple Crown......

Laffit Pincay Jr. "Doug, what are you going to do now that you won the triple crown?"

Doug, "We're going to Disneyland. For about 45 days or so.":rolleyes:

That's great! Very good......... :lol: :lol:

[highnote]

If IHA wins the Triple Crown......

Laffit Pincay Jr. "Doug, what are you going to do now that you won the triple crown?"

Doug, "We're going to Disneyland. For about 45 days or so.":rolleyes:


And after winning or running in a Triple Crown series why not take a break. The punishment is stupid. If the trainer is guilty then why shouldn't his term start immediately?

Some might argue it's because it isn't fair to the connections... They had nothing to do with it. Maybe so. But it would send a message to all trainers. I'm sure the owners of I'll Have Another don't care if he's suspended after the TC. That still gives O'Neill time to get him ready for the Travers.

[Skanoochies]

....If O`Neil was suspended immediately, couldn`t the owner name a new trainer and run IHA in the Belmont anyway? :confused:

[Producer]

First thing, Empire Maker is in Japan. The need for a son of Empire Maker in the US would be minimal. Toussaud was a great mare for producing but her stallions other than maybe Chester House have not had the impact that their race record would suggest. Civilisation stands in WV. Chiselling and Decarchy have not been big producers. That being said Bodemiester being a grandson of Unbridled and sporting the class in his female family would be the draw. A speedy grandson of Unbridled would sell well. I could see him standing for 7.5-10k easy. Zayat already has a son of Empire Maker in Pioneerofthenile. Empire Maker has also been much better with his mares than his boys
http://www.pedigreequery.com/progeny/empire+maker
I'll Have Another is proving that Distorted Humor is going to be a sire of sires. The fact that Flower Alley hit so early and with such heights in this case, might give an inkling that Flower Alley is the best Distorted Humor going. Standing at 3 Chimmneys is a big edge as Flower Alley's book should continue to attract the best. If we get a Triple Crown from IHA than I would put IHA between 30-50k conservatively.

To put this all into perspective, I am sure breeders were more anxious for Affirmed over Alydar in the beginning, but 3yrs later that changed in a big way.
All this being said Bodiemiester is from Family number 1 which has been a very successful stallion family
http://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricDams/EngFoundationMares/Family1/Family1.html
IHA is from family number 23 which ironically is the same family as Affirmed and has been a modest stallion producing line.
http://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricDams/EngFoundationMares/Family23/Family23.html

And so wee can all be on the same page about the families see here
http://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricDams/FamilyNumbers.html



Thanks for the great pedigree info, as always. Wouldn't the fact that Empire Maker is now in Japan make Bodemeister(or another top-class son of his) even more sought after?