Pete Rose

[Tom]

Is this right? By admitting he been a liar for years, he may now be allowed into the Hall of Fame?

[Buckeye]

Lying has nothing to do with it. He should be in based upon his on the field accomplishments.
Period.

[Buddha]

Originally posted by Tom
Is this right? By admitting he been a liar for years, he may now be allowed into the Hall of Fame?

Why does what he said have anything to do with being allowed in the HOF? I thought the HOF was made and meant for the best athletes to be seperated from the rest, not to decide who tells the truth and who doesnt.

[JustRalph]

I agree with Buddha

they celebrate like crazy when somebody gets 3000 hits. Pete has 4256......... those 3k hit guys like Eddie Murray and the like are treated like gods. Pete Rose should be treated better.....

I don't give a damn what he did off the field........nobody played the game harder or with more of a work ethic. Not to mention hall of fame type numbers while playing in 3 or 4 different positions. Nowadays you can't find a guy who can play outfield and switch to infield without a few years of a "learning curve" and they suck at the new position. They barely get by. Pete played wherever they needed him and tore it up no matter the circumstances or position.

There are drug addicts, Drunks and men who were devoutly racist in the Hall. Pete looks like a piker compared to them, in the sin category he is pretty far down there on the Hall list of bad guys.

[Bubbles]

Originally posted by Buddha
Why does what he said have anything to do with being allowed in the HOF? I thought the HOF was made and meant for the best athletes to be seperated from the rest, not to decide who tells the truth and who doesnt.

That's right. If it was for truthful ballplayers, Jim Bouton, the writer of Ball Four, would have a shrine the size of your average house. :D

[doophus]

WOW!! Poll is much closer than I imagined.

Should Billy Cannon, the convicted felon, be forgiven and inducted into the football HOF? After-all, he had already been "approved" for induction before they found some bogus $$ buried in the backyard of his orthodontics practice. He served his time, was reinstated by the dental society, re-licensed and now in practice again. Owner of a stable of TB's at one time, you could often find him at the track. A soft-spoken man who doesn't exude arrogance like Rose.


George Evans

Time to induct CANNON!

[trying2win]

--Hmmm...I'm just wondering about something...If Pete Rose gets inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame, would that inspire Alan Eagleson to reapply to get back into the Hockey Hall of Fame?

Trying2win

[Suff]

All the great ones are Rogues... Its part of thier greatness.. thier charm.

show me any sport or business trailblazer that isn't a bit eccentric, odd or flawed to the same extreme.

Ted Williams Head is in a Jar of formaldahyde in New Mexico somewhere I think? maybe hawk knows.

[ceejay]

I dislike Rose based on his 1973 fight with Bud Harrelson (good thing I don't hold a grudge). But, his on-field accomplishments justify induction if he admits the obvious, that he broke the rules and bet on baseball.

[Zaf]

Originally posted by Buckeye
Lying has nothing to do with it. He should be in based upon his on the field accomplishments.
Period.

Couldn't agree more.

ZAFONIC

[Hosshead]

As long as he bet on his own team, what's the problem? Isn't that like a jockey betting on his own horse? I wouldn't mind the jockey on the horse I bet also betting on the horse. Unless he's not betting to win.(or he drops the odds too much)

[Pace Cap'n]

And put Shoeless Joe in there too.

[Tom]

I always said so what if he bet, he should be let in. But no wthat he is a admitted liar, how can we believe he never bet on other teams and never "threw" a game.
I can see ignoring drug use, gambling, etc, but to step and say, OK, I lied ll theses years,m now reward me!
I gotta draw the line on this loser.
I also gotta say the vote is surprising!

[Pace Cap'n]

BTW, not long ago, my wife was employed at a resort which hosted a banquet Pete attended, and she had the opportunity to meet him.

From her reports, and a couple other employees, he was described as a little loud, a bit arrogant, but friendly to the staff and he left a good tip.

[Valuist]

There is a big problem if he bet on his own team. By being manager in games he bet on, he was the one pulling the strings. He could go all out in those games he bet on, and "save" key relievers in games he didn't bet on. Why bring in a good reliever if you have no wager when you know you can save him for the next day or 2 days down the line? In every MLB locker room, it says in big bold print "GAMBLING IS PROHIBITED". Rose would've taken this lie to the grave if not for having a book come out now. Put Rose in the Hall? Fine, but keep him banned from the game.

[Binder]

Good for you Pete

[DJofSD]

What Buckeye typed.

DJofSD

[kenwoodallpromos]

cap't is right!

[JustRalph]

Yeah..... keep Pete Banned from the game, Come on.

What Pete Did is Baby Shit compared to what they are getting away with now. Steroids are rampant and all the "real records" are being erased by the "steroid boys of summer" now that is a damn crime. When they vote Bonds and Sosa into the hall....Pete better be there. They have almost no credibility now (baseball as a whole) and when they start voting in these new super muscled up hitters, it will be worse.

[CumberlandBluesHSH]

Originally posted by Valuist
...Put Rose in the Hall? Fine, but keep him banned from the game.

That sums up my thoughts perfectly. Give him his damn plaque so he can quit grandstanding every year 'round election and induction time - but keep him off the fields, and out of the dugouts & clubhouses.

[BillW]

Originally posted by Valuist
Put Rose in the Hall? Fine, but keep him banned from the game.

My sentiments also. He broke a baseball rule, not a hall of fame rule. Disregarding this slip he is the epitome of a role model. All Americans should run out bunts! His work ethic was beyond reproach.

Bill

[nomadpat]

I really only see the problem if he bet against his team. I mean trainers and owners can bet their horses knowing supposed "inside information" like their current physical condition, people buy stock of their own companies, so how much of this is unlike what Pete did?
He has been at the local OTB a couple of times and definitely bets a lot of $, I wish I had his bankroll to use!

Hope he gets his due for on-field endeavors. :cool:

[wolsons]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1701880&partnersite=espn



Steve

[Richard]

No doubt about,Charlie Hustle was one of the best players the game has ever seen.All the same,that in no way excuses his violating the no gambling rule which is undeniably a part of MLB.Not to mention the fact that he dissed his fans for 14 years by denying that he did bet on tyhe game.Just like the main sport on this board,the rules are in place for a reason.Don't like 'em,then enough people get together and change 'em.

[Richard]

I apologize for my atrocious spelling.

[delayjf]

A friend of mine went to St Louis with his family to watch the Phillies play. Their son was a big Pete Rose fan. They happen to be visiting some other friends staying at the same hotel as the Phillies. As they were getting on the elevator, guess who gets on?? Yep, Pete Rose. The 10 year old kid excited asked Pete Rose for his autograph. Pete Rose responded without even looking down " I don't do that shit, Kid".

Despite the fact that his on field accomplishments deserve the honor, I would not vote to induct him into the HOF. He broke the rules (laws) and acted in a manner that was deterimental to the integrity of the game. Then lied about it and shown no remorse for his actions. And further more, the man is a first class Ass. He put baseball (his career) before everything, including his family. I'm personally sick of the shameless way he has paraded others to politic on his behalf. No doubt if he is inducted, we will soon see him again on the campaign trail attempting to get back into managing. It's all about him (giving the egos of todays athletes, he was ahead of his time). I see this whole thing as nothing more than a pathetic attempt to "cash in"

If he is inducted, then on some unannounced day, have the HOF maintense crew just put up his plaque with no fan fair, no ceremony, nothing. Other than hanging his plaque, he should not be "Honored" in any way.

[Dan Montilion]

Pete Rose absolutley HAS to be in the Hall Of Fame. Any man that can wear that haircut deserves some honor.

Dan Montilion

[gillenr]

Joe DiMaggio
Year Election Votes Pct
1945 BBWAA 1 0.40
1953 BBWAA 117 44.32
1954 BBWAA 175 69.44
1955 BBWAA 223 88.84

[freeneasy]

the man lied about never having bet on his team. he lied, why? well, recognizing all the baseball related forfitures he would have been forced to make was a hugh reality/wake up slap right in the face, and at that time and in order to beat the rap, he had to lie.
i can certainly relate to that.
and on that note we can let the ball continue to roll and assume further notions as well.
if, on any particular night when all the right or winning ingredients stood out and you bet on your team to win,
then why not, on any particular night when all the wrong or losing ingredients happen to stand out, bet against your team. iow if you felt your team really had no chance to beat a particular team, why not make an honest bet against?
how do we know that pete never bet against his team like he said? lets go back to the lie.
if he ever did bet against his team, then admitting to that is the surest ticket out of baseball.
so if pete rose did bet against his team then theres just no room for argument,
he has to lie about it.
doesn't matter if his team was in the cellar playing a first place team leading by 15 games on the last day of the season and the game means absolutly nothing, if he EVER bet against his team, then he better lie about it no way round it.
and if he never bet against his team, then how can you absolutely know for sure.
and what if he did bet against his team when all the odds and gods say your sure to be the loser tonight. and what if somehow he had a tie in the 9th and he has a chance to go ahead and win with a batting change, hit and run or a squeeze or he had a 1 run lead and he has a chance to hold on and win with a picthing change but at the same time pete has $20,000 riding on the other side. whats he gonna call? you can say " your guess is as good as mine" and you can say " whats to guess? " but i say if theirs someting left to guess then he shouldnt have done what he did.
if he would have been voted into the hof without ever having been a manager then vote him in. but if his managgerial accomplishments are a part of the reason why he should be voted in then, no.
but now heres the trap, he was a player/manager. and because he was as equally a player as a manager then his betting as a manager should be held as equally against him as a player. and besides the man just flat out knew better then that.
the man played above the game and simply had no fear but for all the accomplishments he had in baseball, he also had no fear of betting and breaking the rules.
sorry pete, but you know the rules

[superfecta]

so when he dies he can be admitted to the hall of fame,otherwise what integrity does the MLB have?He broke the cardinal rule,he could have killed somebody,done drugs,or stole more than bases,but since he broke the cardinal rule,and agreed to a lifetime ban,he should wait till the lifetime ban expires.But I hope MLB lets him in and continue the farce that is baseball.

[norm f]

Frankly i could care less if he lied his head off or bet on turtle.
THe hall of fame is there to recognize greatness in the game.And he was a GREAT on the field, as a player,and that should be all thats considered

[freeneasy]

and his betting on the outcome of a game was a part of the total of his overall preformace while on the field of play. every action he took and every reaction he made while standing on the field is a part of his overall preformance weather he bet on the game or not. when he bet, that bet became an aspect of the game. and i agree with fighting, steroids, drugs and throwing at a batter. these should be delt with serverely and held up with all scrutiny when considering induction of anyone into the hall of fame. if darrel strawberry had home run records, rbi records, gold gloves, iow more then enough records to easily get into the hof, should he be voted in given his drug and alchol abuse during his time in the majors? leaving the impression that anyone can be voted in regaurdless of having a negative and drastic lifestyle during their span as a profesional athelete. some people should be taken out iam sure. a lot of flaws exists in professional sports today and id rather see a well coached hard fought colledge game where all these kids are playing just for the love of the game. win a trophy, make your mom and dad proud and go home for christmas.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by freeneasy
some people should be taken out iam sure.

so you are saying that we should treat Pete Differently than his contemporaries. That is a crime. Have you ever heard of the equal protection clause of the constitution? If this was a goverment matter it would apply and your above statement would be considered unconstitutional. But since the U.S. or some State government doesn't decide who goes into the hall.........the HOF committee can get away with it.

The guy has 4256 hits. Do the math........ it is an incredible feat. He deserves to be in the hall. I don't care what kind of scumbag he is. Think about the pitchers he faced....Gibson and Ryan and the like. Pete's record towers above all the others. Treat him the same way you treated the other scum bags who made it in before him and he is instantly the chief scumbag. So what,,,,,, he is in! and he should be.

[Valuist]

Interesting to see Joe Morgan's take on it:

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/6989984

Even his best friend, Mike Schmidt, admitted the timing of this was bad. Rose tried to steal the spotlight away from the HOF inductees to promote his book sales. What a prostitute.

[Steve 'StatMan']

If Rose had rbeen retired for 5 years as a player (he stayed as a player/mgr for a brief time), and had already been elected into the HOF as a player, and then later as manager he gets caught betting on baseball, would they have removed him from the HOF? I don't think so. Removed from the game in disgrace, sure. But not out of the HOF.

[Steve 'StatMan']

May have been more important to the publisher to get it out when it did. I'd say it was the Pimp's fault!

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Valuist
Interesting to see Joe Morgan's take on it:

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/6989984

Even his best friend, Mike Schmidt, admitted the timing of this was bad. Rose tried to steal the spotlight away from the HOF inductees to promote his book sales. What a prostitute.

this happens all the time in the book business. It was a slow year for the hall of fame.......and Rose took advantage of it. Big deal..... I don't blame him at all. he has lost a ton of money being out of baseball....he should get all he can.

I like Joe Morgan and Mike Schmidt but if they had a nice little book to sell and it had some relationship to the hall of fame, their publisher would have done it too........ I am sick of all the members of the Big Red Machine suddenly being held up as being Holier than Jesus himself. Charlie Hustle is running his life just like he played baseball......... all out and without dictation from anybody. Good for Him!

[Tom]

What a surprising thread this turned into!
I guess I am missing something, but the logic appears hazy....

1. He can't go into the HOF becasue they THINK he bet on baseball games. He denies it.
2. Now he says yes, he did bet on baseball after all, and he also lied about it for years.
3. Now we can let him in?

Duh? He can't get in because we think he did something, which it turns out he did, AND he lied as well. So no we reward him??
Isn't this Amazin's world?

[delayjf]

Good article by George Will

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A63755-2004Jan7.html

Yes he deserved to be in the HOF for his achivements on the field, and YES he deserves to be banned for those very same reasons: again for his actions on the field. And yes, If he had been inducted as a player and then busted as a manager, I'd vote to remove him. Would anybody insist on keeping somebody in the HOF if it was proven he used a corked bat his entire career?When someones actions directly affect the game, that's were I draw the line. I would also vote to remove or not induct any player who enhanced his performance using steroids. What about drug users and achoholics. Nobody ever enhanced their performance by using cocaine or getting drunk. As George Will correctly points out, some charater flaws are not pertinant.

And as far as the "Charlie Hustle" thing. No doubt he was highly competitive, but please, what was the purpose of sprinting to 1st base after a walk or doing his famous belly flop dive to a base where there was no play. He was show boating, as if to say "Hey look at me, I'm Charlie Hustle, see how I hustle." Does anybody think batting between Joe Morgan and Johnny Bench may have helped his career.

I just heard that he's now offering to autograph his book for you with a personalized message for 90.00. Maybe if my friends 10 year old son had offered him 90 buck for his autograph. Then maybe he would "do that shit" He's given knew meaning to the nickname charlie HUSTLE.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by delayjf
Good article by George Will

Nobody ever enhanced their performance by using cocaine or getting drunk.

I suppose you never heard of Lawrence Taylor. Offensive players have stated that Taylor used to foam at the mouth while having outstanding games. Later Taylor admitted the extra energy and outright super strength came from Cocaine.


And as far as the "Charlie Hustle" thing. No doubt he was highly competitive, but please, what was the purpose of sprinting to 1st base after a walk or doing his famous belly flop dive to a base where there was no play.

He never did that, are you an idiot? He hustled on every play, that was it. He never dove into a base with no play

Does anybody think batting between Joe Morgan and Johnny Bench may have helped his career.

He was a lead off hitter most of his career


Pete has a bunch of reasons why you can jump his case....you don't have to start making them up. Oh yeah.......if you want to pull out that elevator incident one more time........... let me counter that one.

When I was about 12 years old Pete Rose walked up to me and shook my hand and offered me an autograph. He was making a trophy presentation at a race track..........so he did give autographs on certain occasions.

[delayjf]

Ok, he was a lead off hitter, he still hit ahead of Joe Morgan and Johnny bench didn't he? I'm not saying he wasn't a good hitter, he was, but what kind of pitches would he have seen playing for another team.

I can see how cocaine use could help an athlete act as a raging maniac. But, I've never heard of anybody crediting cocaine with improving their hitting, pitching or fielding. But if that where the case, then they don't belong in the HOF either.

I guess I am an idiot( along with George Will, which puts me in good company), because I distinctly remember his trade mark sprint to 1st base and recall many times his unneccessary belly up slide, Which by the way I've had to view on the news many times in the past few days. I'm not saying he didn't hustle, I'm just saying IMHO that some of his "hustle" was show.

Glad to hear you got an autograph, I guess 10 year olds don't rate. If you plan on purchasing the personalized book maybe you could ask him for a tip on next "sure thing"

[freeneasy]

if i was betting $20,000 and coming up to bat id charge the plate and do a belly flop into the batters box.
if it would have been found out during the coarse of the season that rose was betting on the games do you think that any team that had played the reds up to that point of the season would have had legitimate grounds to protest each game that had been played against the reds?
and that like any colledge team that has been busted for committing one violation or another, have all the games it has played put to a forfiture?
what do you think the leauge would have done, not only to pete rose but to the reds as well had pete rose been busted for betting on the games during the coarse of an ongoing season?
i think i would have to believe that the leauge could very well have been forced to take up an impossible task of forming whatever measures and compensations that would be fair to all national leauge teams involved. measures that quite possibly could have ruined a whole season of baseball.
i dont think there would have been a national leauge manager that would'nt have been screaming his head off.
naw. its all about accomplishments. and betting on baseball was an overall part of his accomplisments in baseball, and it should be held in direct relation as an aspect of his overall accomplishments in baseball and not be considerd an issue seperate from his play on the field.
he could have put a big hurt on baseball and to selfishly abuse the game, the players, and the fans with such little consideration is something that baseball dont need. and it dont need pete rose to make the game what its always been. the best ticket in town.

[ljb]

They should have let him in years ago. The hof is supposed to be based on baseball prowess. If they are going to base it on personal habits, they will have to throw out many current members.

[freeneasy]

should have filed criminal and lawsuit charges against him years ago. thats what she should have done. but marge is the kind of girl that personally answers the phone and talks to anybody that calls her office

[mountainman]

according to investigators, there IS some evidence that rose bet AGAINST his own team..OBVIOUSLY , were it conclusive and verifiable, those who ran rose out of baseball would not have spared pete the embarresment of disclosure....but, cmon guys..gambling is a slippery slope at best and once a man violates a principle..the next principle is that much easier to discard...........................don't get me wrong, the hall of fame is not a " hall of good citizenship"(or a violent, sadistic racist like ty cobb would not be a member)..and i DO think that rose's exclusion from the hall is wrong...and , to be honest, i'm damn sick and tired of people who want him to kiss the ground and grovel when he owes them no apology.................BUT, my gut guess is that(at times) rose DID bet against his own team.....and he should NEVER be permitted to manage or affiliate himself with any team again......

[Dan Montilion]

Scott Ostler in SF Chronicle... When they meet in the hereafter. Shoeless Joe meet clueless Schmoe.

Dan Montilion

[VetScratch]

Hall of Fame baseball player: yes.

Hall of Fame schmuck at Turfway Park: yes.

Manage baseball again: no.

Reimburse baseball for expenses incurred coping with years of truth-or-lie controversy: yes.

[Derek2U]

Pete Rose NO 100%. NO HALL & NO MANAGE. Yeah, ur were
great++Pete but U lost ur BiggestPlay. what U did = HorseDoping
I luv U but go play another game.

[delayjf]

Below is a quote from the George Will article:

But the rules for election by members of the Baseball Writers' Association of America include: "Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played." The rules for voting by the veterans committee similarly mention "integrity, sportsmanship, character."

I know some feel induction should be based on numbers alone, but there is a morals clause. But, I'd be will to meet him half way, Induction for inditement. But then that pesky statue of limitations thing might have already kicked in. He said in his interview that it was time to "take the responsibility". By what?? signing a million dollar book deal and hitting the talk show circuit whining about not being inducted, that's taking responsibility??