The Freak returns

[gm10]

Frankel is making his first appearance of the season at Newbury today.

http://www.racingpost.com/horses2/cards/card.sd?race_id=550528&r_date=2012-05-19#raceTabs=sc_

[Some_One]

Blew them out of the park..can't believe people were taking 5/2 on Aidan's horse against Frankel.

[classhandicapper]

Anyone find a replay?

[Some_One]

http://horses.sportinglife.com/Video/Racing/

[sovereign]

Ugh. My linking doesn't work....:mad:

[PaceAdvantage]

You have to hunt for the right race on that page...as an easier alternative, here is the direct link:

http://www.sportinglife.performgroup.com/streaming/watch/RacingUKFlashVOD/partnerId_1125/videoFileId_11496426/clipId_1990232/index.html?TB_iframe=true&height=340&width=480

[gm10]

very impressive, off a slow pace, though

the price on Excelebration was madness indeed
O'Brien is in great form but he doesn't improve his new recruits by that much (they often are very good already anyway)

[efcchrisefc]

Timeform's View
Frankel given provisional Timeform performance rating of 142 for Lockinge win Sir Henry Cecil's Frankel achieved a provisional figure of 142, just 1 lb below his master rating which came in the QEII last year, as he cruised to a five-length success over Excelebration at Newbury.

Timeform Handicapper Pat Jupp said "Frankel's Lockinge performance rating of 142 is the highest in the race since it was upgraded to Group 1 status in 1995, surpassing that of Hawk Wing who ran to 136 when scoring by eleven lengths in 2003, and is backed up by a provisional timefigure in the mid-130s at least. To dispatch two match-fit rivals in Excelebration and Dubawi Gold in this manner was clearly most impressive and it suggests there could be even more to come from Frankel in the months ahead.

“Frankel still stands 2lb below Sea Bird II, the highest-rated Flat horse in Timeform's history at 145, but he left the impression today that he has a real chance of surpassing that figure this season.”

Connections are now faced with a choice at Royal Ascot of either keeping Frankel to a mile in the Queen Anne Stakes or stepping him up to a mile and a quarter for the first time in the Prince of Wales's Stakes, where he may cross swords with 133-rated Cirrus des Aigles.

Timeform’s all-time highest-rated horses

145 Sea Bird II

144 Brigadier Gerard, Tudor Minstrel

143 Frankel

142 Abernant, Ribot, Windy City

141 Mill Reef

140 Dancing Brave, Dubai Millennium, Sea The Stars, Shergar, Vaguely Noble

[classhandicapper]

Thanks for the link. :)

Going from 8F to 10F seems like a tough task. Isn't there a 9F race he can run in to more or less test if he wants to go that far and give him a chance to stretch slowly?

[Some_One]

There aren't any 9f races really in Europe, most Group races are 6,8,10,12 furlongs

[nearco]

The only 9f G1 race in Europe, that I can think of, is the Prix d'Ispahan, which is run next weekend.
Not a very popular distance in Euro racing.

[classhandicapper]

The only 9f G1 race in Europe, that I can think of, is the Prix d'Ispahan, which is run next weekend.
Not a very popular distance in Euro racing.

If there's a talented horse in his first race at 10F, it might be worth taking a stab against him.

[nearco]

If there's a talented horse in his first race at 10F, it might be worth taking a stab against him.

There will likely be at least two, Cirrus des Aigles and So You Think, both 10f specialists.

[cj]

2f0XDI1zEuE

[Seabiscuit@AR]

Frankel looks to have run well in his return race

But this race just demonstrates how poor is the quality of racing in the UK. This race is labelled a G1 race. But take a look at the 3rd placed finisher Dubawi Gold

Dubawi Gold finished 3rd in this race beaten 9 lengths. He started 3rd fave. So most likely he was the 3rd best horse in the race. But he has only won 1 race in the last 12 months. At his last two starts he ran 4th by 18 lengths (odds of 5-2) and 10th by 8.75L (odds of 8-1) to horses other than Frankel. So he came into this race with terrible form and ran terribly again. But he was considered the 3rd best hope and did run 3rd. So how bad must be the 4th, 5th and 6th placed horses some of which were pacemakers?

Bullet Train ran 4th. This was his first up run this season so maybe he needed the hit out. But this horse has finished last in 5 of his last 6 races and been beaten by 12L (by Frankel), 23L, 7.25L, 4.25L, 9.25L, 38L. In the Lockinge he has been beaten 12L which mirrors his last run of last prep where he also lost by 12L to Frankel

Now Bullet Train was Frankel's pacemaker and did drop off Tour de France style when he was supposed to. But his presence adds nothing to making this race a contest

Ransom Note ran 5th. Last 3 runs it has run 8th, 9th and 8th well beaten each time. Did win its 4th last run but that was its only win in the last 12 months

Windsor Palace ran 6th. Amazingly this one was a last start winner. But being trained by O'Brien was obviously a pacemaker here for the 2nd horse. When used as a pacemaker last season it was beaten over 20 lengths on 3 occasions. Got beaten 21L in this race which is about par for the course

Now the 2nd horse did have some form being a last out winner and 2nd fave. So he had something to offer. But really this was a 2 horse race and a very poor one at that

I cannot believe a horse like Dubawi Gold is the 3rd best horse they can find for a G1 mile race in the UK. This horse is a dud at the G1 level. If Dubawi Gold was winning races when not facing Frankel then you would declare Frankel a superstar and a wonder horse. But when Frankel is only beating Dubawi Gold by about the same margins other horses are destroying Dubawi Gold by you have to question if Frankel is really a freak or just your standard good horse beating up on very weak opposition

[gm10]

Frankel looks to have run well in his return race

But this race just demonstrates how poor is the quality of racing in the UK. This race is labelled a G1 race. But take a look at the 3rd placed finisher Dubawi Gold

Dubawi Gold finished 3rd in this race beaten 9 lengths. He started 3rd fave. So most likely he was the 3rd best horse in the race. But he has only won 1 race in the last 12 months. At his last two starts he ran 4th by 18 lengths (odds of 5-2) and 10th by 8.75L (odds of 8-1) to horses other than Frankel. So he came into this race with terrible form and ran terribly again. But he was considered the 3rd best hope and did run 3rd. So how bad must be the 4th, 5th and 6th placed horses some of which were pacemakers?

Bullet Train ran 4th. This was his first up run this season so maybe he needed the hit out. But this horse has finished last in 5 of his last 6 races and been beaten by 12L (by Frankel), 23L, 7.25L, 4.25L, 9.25L, 38L. In the Lockinge he has been beaten 12L which mirrors his last run of last prep where he also lost by 12L to Frankel

Now Bullet Train was Frankel's pacemaker and did drop off Tour de France style when he was supposed to. But his presence adds nothing to making this race a contest

Ransom Note ran 5th. Last 3 runs it has run 8th, 9th and 8th well beaten each time. Did win its 4th last run but that was its only win in the last 12 months

Windsor Palace ran 6th. Amazingly this one was a last start winner. But being trained by O'Brien was obviously a pacemaker here for the 2nd horse. When used as a pacemaker last season it was beaten over 20 lengths on 3 occasions. Got beaten 21L in this race which is about par for the course

Now the 2nd horse did have some form being a last out winner and 2nd fave. So he had something to offer. But really this was a 2 horse race and a very poor one at that

I cannot believe a horse like Dubawi Gold is the 3rd best horse they can find for a G1 mile race in the UK. This horse is a dud at the G1 level. If Dubawi Gold was winning races when not facing Frankel then you would declare Frankel a superstar and a wonder horse. But when Frankel is only beating Dubawi Gold by about the same margins other horses are destroying Dubawi Gold by you have to question if Frankel is really a freak or just your standard good horse beating up on very weak opposition

Dubwai Gold is not really a dud. He should have won the Irish Guineas for example. Excelebration is a nice horse, too, has already won a Group 1. It's the way he beats them time and time again, and by how much, that makes him such a rare specimen. Plus his speed figures are actually very good. Some of them are among the best that I have on record for the last 12 years of British racing.

[nearco]

Frankel looks to have run well in his return race

But this race just demonstrates how poor is the quality of racing in the UK. This race is labelled a G1 race. But take a look at the 3rd placed finisher Dubawi Gold

Dubawi Gold finished 3rd in this race beaten 9 lengths. He started 3rd fave. So most likely he was the 3rd best horse in the race. But he has only won 1 race in the last 12 months. At his last two starts he ran 4th by 18 lengths (odds of 5-2) and 10th by 8.75L (odds of 8-1) to horses other than Frankel. So he came into this race with terrible form and ran terribly again. But he was considered the 3rd best hope and did run 3rd. So how bad must be the 4th, 5th and 6th placed horses some of which were pacemakers?

Bullet Train ran 4th. This was his first up run this season so maybe he needed the hit out. But this horse has finished last in 5 of his last 6 races and been beaten by 12L (by Frankel), 23L, 7.25L, 4.25L, 9.25L, 38L. In the Lockinge he has been beaten 12L which mirrors his last run of last prep where he also lost by 12L to Frankel

Now Bullet Train was Frankel's pacemaker and did drop off Tour de France style when he was supposed to. But his presence adds nothing to making this race a contest

Ransom Note ran 5th. Last 3 runs it has run 8th, 9th and 8th well beaten each time. Did win its 4th last run but that was its only win in the last 12 months

Windsor Palace ran 6th. Amazingly this one was a last start winner. But being trained by O'Brien was obviously a pacemaker here for the 2nd horse. When used as a pacemaker last season it was beaten over 20 lengths on 3 occasions. Got beaten 21L in this race which is about par for the course

Now the 2nd horse did have some form being a last out winner and 2nd fave. So he had something to offer. But really this was a 2 horse race and a very poor one at that

I cannot believe a horse like Dubawi Gold is the 3rd best horse they can find for a G1 mile race in the UK. This horse is a dud at the G1 level. If Dubawi Gold was winning races when not facing Frankel then you would declare Frankel a superstar and a wonder horse. But when Frankel is only beating Dubawi Gold by about the same margins other horses are destroying Dubawi Gold by you have to question if Frankel is really a freak or just your standard good horse beating up on very weak opposition

It was for all intents and purposes a two horse race once Strong Suit was scratched.

The word now is that for his next start they will keep him at a mile and go for the Queen Anne at Ascot and not the Prince of Wales (10f).
Which means his next race will be another boring paid workout, as I can't imagine Strong Suit doing any better than Excelebration, and there is no other 4yo+ miler in europe that's worth a damn.
The only hope is that some of the 3yo Milers are good enough to give him a run for his money later on in the year, or that they move him up to 10f sooner rather than later, otherwise it will campaign of boring routes with constant question marks over the opposition.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

gm10

Frankel is a good horse. But I have to wonder how much he is simply a hype horse instead of a superstar. Frankel is best horse of his crop, dux of his class etc etc. But this only makes him a once in a year horse. The hype makes out he is a once in a lifetime horse

Ever since Betfair bought out Timeform ratings in 2006 horses have been marked more generously in terms of 140+ Timeform ratings. Frankel and Sea The Stars have been the biggest beneficiaries

That field which Frankel beat yesterday consisted of one decent opponent and four legless opponents who had nothing to do with being in a G1 race. Dubawi Gold might have run OK in the Irish Guineas, he also ran OK in HK when he came 4th. But this horse is an easy beat for any serious G1 winning horse

Frankel is not going to prove his greatness by smashing the likes of Dubawi Gold repeatedly. He needs to enter some races with multiple decent opponents. It probably won't happen in the UK as most of their G1 races are match races in truth even if there are 6 horses in the race

[tholl]

Frankel looks to have run well in his return race

But this race just demonstrates how poor is the quality of racing in the UK. This race is labelled a G1 race. But take a look at the 3rd placed finisher Dubawi Gold




Sorry, don't buy "poor quality of racing in UK' at all. In Europe generally, versus most of time in USA, the cream rises to the top. Horses are placed better where they belong, right distance etc. See very few horses ruined by wasteful tries in the Triple Crown or trying to win the BC Classic when they belong in the mile or sprint. That's how they get dominating horses such as Frankel, Sea The Stars, Goldikova etc. I've seen many weaker Grade 1 races in USA.

As for Frankel in his last three races last year horses he beat included: G1 winners Dick Turpin, Immortal Verse (who was coming off a win over Goldikova) Canford Cliffs (was coming off 5 G1 wins) Zoffany, Dream Ahead and Wooton Bassett.

[Humph]

Plus his speed figures are actually very good. Some of them are among the best that I have on record for the last 12 years of British racing.

The speed people at the Racing Post said that the figure Frankel returned for his Guineas win was virtually off the scale.

[RXB]

Frankel looks to have run well in his return race

But this race just demonstrates how poor is the quality of racing in the UK. This race is labelled a G1 race. But take a look at the 3rd placed finisher Dubawi Gold

Dubawi Gold finished 3rd in this race beaten 9 lengths. He started 3rd fave. So most likely he was the 3rd best horse in the race. But he has only won 1 race in the last 12 months. At his last two starts he ran 4th by 18 lengths (odds of 5-2) and 10th by 8.75L (odds of 8-1) to horses other than Frankel. So he came into this race with terrible form and ran terribly again. But he was considered the 3rd best hope and did run 3rd. So how bad must be the 4th, 5th and 6th placed horses some of which were pacemakers?

Bullet Train ran 4th. This was his first up run this season so maybe he needed the hit out. But this horse has finished last in 5 of his last 6 races and been beaten by 12L (by Frankel), 23L, 7.25L, 4.25L, 9.25L, 38L. In the Lockinge he has been beaten 12L which mirrors his last run of last prep where he also lost by 12L to Frankel

Now Bullet Train was Frankel's pacemaker and did drop off Tour de France style when he was supposed to. But his presence adds nothing to making this race a contest

Ransom Note ran 5th. Last 3 runs it has run 8th, 9th and 8th well beaten each time. Did win its 4th last run but that was its only win in the last 12 months

Windsor Palace ran 6th. Amazingly this one was a last start winner. But being trained by O'Brien was obviously a pacemaker here for the 2nd horse. When used as a pacemaker last season it was beaten over 20 lengths on 3 occasions. Got beaten 21L in this race which is about par for the course

Now the 2nd horse did have some form being a last out winner and 2nd fave. So he had something to offer. But really this was a 2 horse race and a very poor one at that

I cannot believe a horse like Dubawi Gold is the 3rd best horse they can find for a G1 mile race in the UK. This horse is a dud at the G1 level. If Dubawi Gold was winning races when not facing Frankel then you would declare Frankel a superstar and a wonder horse. But when Frankel is only beating Dubawi Gold by about the same margins other horses are destroying Dubawi Gold by you have to question if Frankel is really a freak or just your standard good horse beating up on very weak opposition

Canford Cliffs had won five straight Gr1 races before getting dusted by Frankel by five lengths. CC, Immortal Verse and Dream Ahead all own victories over Goldikova but none of them can even warm up Frankel. In his debut he beat Nathaniel who is a multiple Gr1 winner. Excelebration is a Gr1 winner.

I agree that Dubawi Gold is nothing special at the Gr1 level but Frankel has crushed several legit Gr1 winners. He is a superb animal but of course if Brigadier Gerard can lose one race then so can Frankel. But I would not be betting against him.

[iceknight]

BC 2012

[gm10]

The speed people at the Racing Post said that the figure Frankel returned for his Guineas win was virtually off the scale.

That and the Dewhurst.
113 yesterday (on Beyer scale)

[nearco]

Canford Cliffs had won five straight Gr1 races before getting dusted by Frankel by five lengths. CC, Immortal Verse and Dream Ahead all own victories over Goldikova but none of them can even warm up Frankel. In his debut he beat Nathaniel who is a multiple Gr1 winner. Excelebration is a Gr1 winner.

I agree that Dubawi Gold is nothing special at the Gr1 level but Frankel has crushed several legit Gr1 winners. He is a superb animal but of course if Brigadier Gerard can lose one race then so can Frankel. But I would not be betting against him.

In fairness, Canford Cliffs came out of that race injured and was retired. That he hung across the track in stretch would suggest there was something amiss. Frankel may well have still beaten him, but probably would have been a lot closer.

So basically, Canford is the one true world class Miler he has beaten to date, and as we see above there will always be a question mark over that race.
Dream Ahead is a sprinter, not a miler.
Nathaniel is a middle distance horse not a miler, and even then his best distance would be be 12f not 10f. Btw, he only has the one G1 (the King George).
Immortal Verse is very inconsistent runner.

Don't get me wrong, I think Frankel is exceptional, I just wish we could get some proper competition to see how truly great he is. I think the only way we are going to get that is at 10f, unless the 3yo Milers this year turn out to be an above average crop.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

RXB

I don't rate Canford Cliffs at all. He was a deadset B grader whose 5 G1 wins are the result of weak G1 racing in the UK. When Canford Cliffs beat Goldikova she was well past her peak as her subsequent form showed. If he had taken on Goldikova the year before he loses. Frankel is a better horse than Canford Cliffs I have no doubt. Frankel is the best horse in his year. But there is nothing in his form to suggest a freak or superstar or worldbeater. Next year or the year after there will be another miler in the UK as good as Frankel. Whether it will get the same hype as Frankel is another thing

A great horse smashes good horses. Frankel smashes bad horses. Not just that he smashes the same bad horses again and again and again. And the strange thing for a "freak" is that he does not beat these bad horses by any further than what other "ordinary" horses do

[Seabiscuit@AR]

tholl

the list of G1 winners you provide that Frankel has beaten is very small. Frankel has won multiple G1s already. He should be defeating multiple G1 winners each time he wins a G1 as a late 3YO or 4YO. When you win a G1 as a 2YO there might be no G1 winners in the race. But a late 3YO or 4YO should be facing say 5 G1 winners each time it races in a G1 if the racing is for real. An all time great should have beaten a list of G1 winners that is too long to mention. And then when beating these G1 winners should have beaten them by further than what others beat them by

The UK breeding industry will still throw up quality horses no denying that. But the USA still provides better quality racing than the UK. The Preakness on Saturday was a top race as far as pure racing goes. Two horses fighting out a finish for all they are worth. With 100 yards to go I was not sure who would win. That is real racing for you. Frankel blasting away walkers like Dubawi Gold, Windsor Palace and Bullet Train is rubbish racing that UK racing should look to put a stop to

[gm10]

tholl

the list of G1 winners you provide that Frankel has beaten is very small. Frankel has won multiple G1s already. He should be defeating multiple G1 winners each time he wins a G1 as a late 3YO or 4YO. When you win a G1 as a 2YO there might be no G1 winners in the race. But a late 3YO or 4YO should be facing say 5 G1 winners each time it races in a G1 if the racing is for real. An all time great should have beaten a list of G1 winners that is too long to mention. And then when beating these G1 winners should have beaten them by further than what others beat them by

The UK breeding industry will still throw up quality horses no denying that. But the USA still provides better quality racing than the UK. The Preakness on Saturday was a top race as far as pure racing goes. Two horses fighting out a finish for all they are worth. With 100 yards to go I was not sure who would win. That is real racing for you. Frankel blasting away walkers like Dubawi Gold, Windsor Palace and Bullet Train is rubbish racing that UK racing should look to put a stop to

How many group 1 races over a mile do you think there are in the UK?

Let's try 2011 and focus on the G1 races for which Frankel was eligible.

for 3yo colts:

2000 Guineas (Frankel)

for 3yo+:

St James' Palace (Frankel)
QE II (Frankel)
Susses Stakes (Frankel)

There were 2 other group 1 races over a mile, for older horses (ignoring those for F&M). The Queen Anne (Canford Cliffs), and the Lockinge (Canford Cliffs). (He beat Canford Cliffs at Goodwood.)

That list of G1 winners he should be beating is hard to compile under such circumstances.

[tholl]

tholl


The UK breeding industry will still throw up quality horses no denying that. But the USA still provides better quality racing than the UK. The Preakness on Saturday was a top race as far as pure racing goes. Two horses fighting out a finish for all they are worth. With 100 yards to go I was not sure who would win. That is real racing for you. Frankel blasting away walkers like Dubawi Gold, Windsor Palace and Bullet Train is rubbish racing that UK racing should look to put a stop to


Being from England may be I am a bit biased. I love America and agree that the Preakness was a great race with a formful result but wonder if I'Ill Have Another belongs in the same breath as Secretariat, Affirmed, Seattle Slew etc. His pedigree is questionable and to me he's another Smarty Jones or Real Quiet that will have little long term impact on the breed. I thought this year was going to be a strong one for three-year-olds but it appears not so which seems to happen year after year. The top three-year-old are meant to be the future stallions but the last KY Derby winner to really make an impact on the breed is probably Unbridled in 1990. To me the quality of dirt racing in USA has declined in the last 20 years through breeding for commercialism, use of drugs etc. Also turf racing here has suffered. Where are the good grass runners like Lure or Paradise Creek that would have a chance of being competitive in any country other than America? Sorry to digress!

I will say that I don't know when exactly or WHY the Lockinge Stakes became a Group One. Traditionally it was a seven furlong prep basically for Royal Ascot, it's really too early in the year to attract many top older horses and will agree that it was a give away Group One for Frankel.

[KaiserSoze]

It will be interesting to see him at 2000m this year, he looks to have progressed again physically from the video + images.

[Humph]

Being from England may be I am a bit biased. I love America and agree that the Preakness was a great race with a formful result but wonder if I'Ill Have Another belongs in the same breath as Secretariat, Affirmed, Seattle Slew etc. His pedigree is questionable and to me he's another Smarty Jones or Real Quiet that will have little long term impact on the breed. I thought this year was going to be a strong one for three-year-olds but it appears not so which seems to happen year after year. The top three-year-old are meant to be the future stallions but the last KY Derby winner to really make an impact on the breed is probably Unbridled in 1990. To me the quality of dirt racing in USA has declined in the last 20 years through breeding for commercialism, use of drugs etc. Also turf racing here has suffered. Where are the good grass runners like Lure or Paradise Creek that would have a chance of being competitive in any country other than America? Sorry to digress!

I will say that I don't know when exactly or WHY the Lockinge Stakes became a Group One. Traditionally it was a seven furlong prep basically for Royal Ascot, it's really too early in the year to attract many top older horses and will agree that it was a give away Group One for Frankel.

I too am from England , originally , and have heard this 'ours is best' argument too many times :)

As for English racing , from what I can gather , one of the problems they have over there is the dirth of people playing at the top end of market . Gone are the days of Lord Howard de Walden , Lady Beaverbrook , Lord Halifax and the like , local people who produced top-quality animals on a regular basis, which led to healthy competition. These days , Ireland's Ballydoyle is the all-powerful outfit , but they're dominance has its downside ,imo . Take last season for example , they owned something like two thirds of the best middle distance runners over there , but each horse appeared to have its own agenda ,which meant that too many top horses didn't get to race against each other.

And how it must hurt English racing that two very rich people who back Ballydoyle in a big way , Michael Tabor and Derrick Smith , both hail from London.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0522/1224316502647.html

The BHA Handicapper has raised Frankel to the highest rating in 25 years. You can only assume the BHA Handicapper is saying that Frankel's performance on the weekend was the best anywhere in the world in the last 25 years

This sums up UK racing for me. Smash a field where 4 of the 6 are not G1 horses and your performance is rated among the best of all time. UK racing is all about press releases and official ratings and not really about the racing out on the track

Frankel should be racing against horses like Danedream or horses from Japan. Plus there should be up and comers in Europe to take him on. But there is no incentive for his owners to stop racing horses like Dubawi Gold and Bullet Train as beating up on these animals just sends his rating higher and higher

[gm10]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0522/1224316502647.html

The BHA Handicapper has raised Frankel to the highest rating in 25 years. You can only assume the BHA Handicapper is saying that Frankel's performance on the weekend was the best anywhere in the world in the last 25 years

This sums up UK racing for me. Smash a field where 4 of the 6 are not G1 horses and your performance is rated among the best of all time. UK racing is all about press releases and official ratings and not really about the racing out on the track

Frankel should be racing against horses like Danedream or horses from Japan. Plus there should be up and comers in Europe to take him on. But there is no incentive for his owners to stop racing horses like Dubawi Gold and Bullet Train as beating up on these animals just sends his rating higher and higher

Danedream?? Should Goldikova have been running in the Arc? Amazombie in the BC Classic?

He beat an in-form 126 rated horse by 5 lengths over a mile. That makes him worth 136 lbs (roughly). I don't think the 2 lbs rise to 138 was necessary, but it's not exactly ludicrous either.

I agree that UK racing tends to think it's better than it is, but you are going too far in the other direction imo.

[tholl]

I too am from England , originally , and have heard this 'ours is best' argument too many times :)

As for English racing , from what I can gather , one of the problems they have over there is the dirth of people playing at the top end of market . Gone are the days of Lord Howard de Walden , Lady Beaverbrook , Lord Halifax and the like , local people who produced top-quality animals on a regular basis, which led to healthy competition. These days , Ireland's Ballydoyle is the all-powerful outfit , but they're dominance has its downside ,imo . Take last season for example , they owned something like two thirds of the best middle distance runners over there , but each horse appeared to have its own agenda ,which meant that too many top horses didn't get to race against each other.

And how it must hurt English racing that two very rich people who back Ballydoyle in a big way , Michael Tabor and Derrick Smith , both hail from London.

I agree the dominance of Coolmore/Ballydoyle hurts racing overall but I believe the Arab influx had as much to do with the demise of the old time breeders that you mentioned. Everyone seemed to think the influx of the Arab money was a plus but it's sad to see how it affected Newmarket when they bought up half the yards and studs and drove he smaller breeders and trainers out. Newmarket used to be a cool town now is totally ruined.

[classhandicapper]

How many group 1 races over a mile do you think there are in the UK?

Let's try 2011 and focus on the G1 races for which Frankel was eligible.

for 3yo colts:

2000 Guineas (Frankel)

for 3yo+:

St James' Palace (Frankel)
QE II (Frankel)
Susses Stakes (Frankel)

There were 2 other group 1 races over a mile, for older horses (ignoring those for F&M). The Queen Anne (Canford Cliffs), and the Lockinge (Canford Cliffs). (He beat Canford Cliffs at Goodwood.)

That list of G1 winners he should be beating is hard to compile under such circumstances.

This is the same point I made about another horse whose competition was constantly being minimized. When one horse wins almost all the Grade 1s in their category, it gets hard to beat other Grade 1 horses because there aren't any.

[tholl]

This is the same point I made about another horse whose competition was constantly being minimized. When one horse wins almost all the Grade 1s in their category, it gets hard to beat other Grade 1 horses because there aren't any.

Zenyatta?

[gm10]

This is the same point I made about another horse whose competition was constantly being minimized. When one horse wins almost all the Grade 1s in their category, it gets hard to beat other Grade 1 horses because there aren't any.

Yes ...

and Excelebration has actually beaten every field that didn't include Frankel (ignoring his debut).

[Humph]

I agree the dominance of Coolmore/Ballydoyle hurts racing overall but I believe the Arab influx had as much to do with the demise of the old time breeders that you mentioned. Everyone seemed to think the influx of the Arab money was a plus but it's sad to see how it affected Newmarket when they bought up half the yards and studs and drove he smaller breeders and trainers out. Newmarket used to be a cool town now is totally ruined.

The old-time breeders just died and weren't replaced. And Godolphin seem to ruin just as many horses as they bring on.