DRF and Horseplayer Advocacy

[Indulto]

http://pullthepocket.blogspot.ca/2012/05/horseplayer-bible-i-think-thats-long.html (http://pullthepocket.blogspot.ca/2012/05/horseplayer-bible-i-think-thats-long.html)


Wednesday, May 2, 2012

Horseplayer Bible? I Think That's Long Gone

[jelly]

Great read,good to see who the friends of Horseplayers are.

[Dahoss9698]

So can we consider this a response from HANA?

[Jeff P]

IMHO, this piece is spot on.

Jeff Platt
President, HANA

[CincyHorseplayer]

Excellent.It'll be interesting to see how the next 5 years play out.I think a lot changes and not willingly from the powers that be.

[Dahoss9698]

IMHO, this piece is spot on.

Jeff Platt
President, HANA

Wonder why.

Dahoss
President, SCFU

[Jeff P]

Q. Is there something in the Pull the Pocket blog piece that you disagree with? Do you think Dean got any of the facts wrong?


-jp

.

[Dahoss9698]

Q. Is there something in the Pull the Pocket blog piece that you disagree with? Do you think Dean got any of the facts wrong?


-jp

.

It's a sour grapes piece because you guys felt slighted. He admits it. Why is it newsworthy? It sort of seemed like there was a certain degree of satisfaction coming from various members of this board during this week. At least we can confirm it now.

You're a businessman. One of the ways the DRF makes money is selling past performances. Can't you kind of understand their position?

[cj]

DRF has long been called the Horseplayer's Bible or something similar. Isn't that because of the PPs though, nothing else?

It has never, ever really been a big advocate of the bettor in my opinion, other than writing articles that might help people read PPs and provide handicapping insights. Everything outside the PPs has always been geared towards those that advertise, and I don't think there are many bettors doing that.

What am I missing?

[Jeff P]

I doubt you are missing a thing CJ. And Dahoss, I actually can understand their position (even if I disagree with it.)

Maybe the fault is mine... for being naive.

When I first started out as a bettor I would buy the paper edition of the DRF. Back then the DRF seemed a very different animal than what it is now. I would read it literally from cover to cover... It had past performances and charts for tracks in other parts of the country that I had never been to and couldn't even bet. It had news and editorials about the sport, and from time to time some really interesting letters to the editor. At one point I even signed up for a subscription so that I could have the DRF delivered to my front door.

For the longest time, at least for me, the DRF really was like the horseplayer's bible. The articles and editorial content found within its pages were available nowhere else - and reading it all gave me the feeling that I was somehow plugged in - totally immersed in the sport.

The point I'm trying to make is that quite a few of the columns I read were written from a horseplayer's vantage point - and for the longest time, I always felt that the guys writing for the DRF had my back as a player.

I'm not exactly sure when it happened, but one day in the early to mid 1990's I began noticing that the DRF's editorial content didn't have the same... I'm not quite sure how to describe it, so I'll use the word depth. It didn't have the same depth that it used to.

Instead of the total immersion into the sport handicapper's bible type of paper the DRF used to be, I realized it had deteriorated into little more than past performances and ads.

I'm guessing quite a few of you reading this post have been buying the DRF for as long as I have - some of you longer. Anyone else out there recall thinking the same thing? That the paper itself had started to deteriorate?

So yeah, color me naive. All these years, I just kind of assumed guys like Crist and Beyer had the player's back. Because they were bettors too.

But when push came to shove - and they were presented with the chance - and later asked to write about players organizing a Boycott in protest against a takeout hike: They literally did nothing.

So yeah, there are sour grapes involved. Because all those years when the DRF actually was the handicapper's bible, it was natural for players everywhere to get the feeling that the DRF had their backs.

Obviously that belief was misplaced.



-jp

.

[jelly]

Jeff,can you tell us why the likes of DRF,Steve Byk and others wouldn't give HANA(horseplayers)the time of day when it came to the boycott of Cal. racing.



You don't have to get specific but what was their reasoning for not giving the horseplayers a voice?Did they even give you a reason?

[Indulto]

DRF has long been called the Horseplayer's Bible or something similar. Isn't that because of the PPs though, nothing else?

It has never, ever really been a big advocate of the bettor in my opinion, other than writing articles that might help people read PPs and provide handicapping insights.Everything outside the PPs has always been geared towards those that advertise, and I don't think there are many bettors doing that.

What am I missing? …Crist has long been recognized as a horseplayer advocate for writing columns like the following:

http://www.drf.com/news/california-board-skews-takeout-tale (http://www.drf.com/news/california-board-skews-takeout-tale)
09/03/2010 4:39PM
California board skews takeout tale
By Steven Crist


http://www.drf.com/news/bettors-deserve-more-after-takeout-hike (http://www.drf.com/news/bettors-deserve-more-after-takeout-hike)
01/21/2011 5:20PM
Bettors deserve more after takeout hike
By Steven Crist


That is why many of us who participated in the boycott were so disappointed that someone of his stature and influence declined to take part. I believe he could have made a big difference.It's a sour grapes piece because you guys felt slighted. He admits it. Why is it newsworthy? It sort of seemed like there was a certain degree of satisfaction coming from various members of this board during this week. At least we can confirm it now.

What am I missing? What you claim to perceive as satisfaction is for some of us continued disappointment. Prior to the boycott, most other players I've communicated with would have supported Crist for Racing Commissioner.

I’m not going to stop reading Crist. Nor will I stop respecting his positive accomplishments, but I won’t soon forget these episodes where he could have made a positive impact and didn’t.

[Robert Goren]

I like Jeff remember a different kind of DRF. It was far more bettor oriented than today. That was a long time ago and understand why some of the younger members of this forum think the way they do. They have never seen the old DRF. At one time, a long time ago, the DRF was much more than just bunch of past performances.

[Dahoss9698]

Crist has long been recognized as a horseplayer advocate for writing columns like the following:

http://www.drf.com/news/california-board-skews-takeout-tale (http://www.drf.com/news/california-board-skews-takeout-tale)
09/03/2010 4:39PM
[font=Arial]California board skews takeout tale
By Steven Crist


http://www.drf.com/news/bettors-deserve-more-after-takeout-hike (http://www.drf.com/news/bettors-deserve-more-after-takeout-hike)
01/21/2011 5:20PM
Bettors deserve more after takeout hike
By Steven Crist


[font=Verdana]That is why many of us who participated in the boycott were so disappointed that someone of his stature and influence declined to take part. I believe he could have made a big difference.What you claim to perceive as satisfaction is for some of us continued disappointment. Prior to the boycott, most other players I've communicated with would have supported Crist for Racing Commissioner.

I’m not going to stop reading Crist. Nor will I stop respecting his positive accomplishments, but I won’t soon forget these episodes where he could have made a positive impact and didn’t.

I didn't type the first part you responded to, CJ did.

Here's what it all boils down in this situation for me, and I understand I'm probably in the minority. I'm fine with that.

HANA felt slighted many months ago. They are happy (for lack of a better word, and you insult my intelligence when you pretend it's anything other than happiness coming across by some of you) with whatever situation Crist and the DRF are in now because of that perceived slight.

Call me crazy, but when I think of how I would want a group that claims to give me a voice as a horseplayer acting, taking glee in others misfortunes isn't that way. It's unprofessional.

The sport is better for having people like Crist involved. Much better.

[cj]

Crist and Beyer have written articles in the past decade that advocated the bettor, but before that, who in the DRF was tackling issues like they did?
It isn't like I started playing 5 years ago. I've been reading the Form for 30 years. Which columnists were fighting for horseplayers?

[bigmack]

I see no schadenfreude in the written piece. It must be hypersensitive types who fawn over Crist that are uncomfortable with any critique of the rags editorial positions. If there was schadenfreude it would be easy enough to cite a passage to that effect. I don't see anyone doing that.

[FenceBored]

I didn't type the first part you responded to, CJ did.

Here's what it all boils down in this situation for me, and I understand I'm probably in the minority. I'm fine with that.

HANA felt slighted many months ago. They are happy (for lack of a better word, and you insult my intelligence when you pretend it's anything other than happiness coming across by some of you) with whatever situation Crist and the DRF are in now because of that perceived slight.

Call me crazy, but when I think of how I would want a group that claims to give me a voice as a horseplayer acting, taking glee in others misfortunes isn't that way. It's unprofessional.

The sport is better for having people like Crist involved. Much better.


Crist is the one who was unprofessional, in abetting an illegal pricing scheme.

Rejoicing that a coverup was exposed and the reputation of those involved in it tarnished doesn't strike me as unprofessional.

[Dahoss9698]

So happy I discovered the ignore feature. So happy.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I don't think this blog post was emotionally driven at all. Just as this one wasn't which predated the Players Boycott by a good 9 months:
http://pullthepocket.blogspot.ca/2010/03/two-good-writers-one-good-article.html

[Dahoss9698]

I don't think this blog post was emotionally driven at all. Just as this one wasn't which predated the Players Boycott by a good 9 months:
http://pullthepocket.blogspot.ca/2010/03/two-good-writers-one-good-article.html

Interesting take. The guy admits it was sour grapes, but you don't think it is emotionally driven at all?

Makes perfect sense. :ThmbUp:

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Interesting take. The guy admits it was sour grapes, but you don't think it is emotionally driven at all?

Makes perfect sense. :ThmbUp:
The author of the piece hasn't admitted that is was sour grapes. I believe the article I posted proves that the author isn't driven by emotion. Jeff admits that he has sour grapes regarding Crist though.

[cj]

I'd still like to know who these big horseplayer advocates were before Beyer and Crist. I honestly don't know. I've read the form for 30 years and don't recall anything like these guys have written before them.

It was all pretty horsey stories and human interest stories and the occasional handicapping insight.

[Dahoss9698]

The author of the piece hasn't admitted that is was sour grapes. I believe the article I posted proves that the author isn't driven by emotion. Jeff admits that he has sour grapes regarding Crist though.

There is a line in the piece that questions if it was sour grapes, to which he answered maybe, and then tried to argue why it isn't. You are doing the same.

Stevie Wonder can see it's sour grapes and pretending it isn't insults people with a brain.

Come to think of it though, you might be a bit biased considering your relationship with HANA, don't you think?

[Dahoss9698]

I'd still like to know who these big horseplayer advocates were before Beyer and Crist. I honestly don't know. I've read the form for 30 years and don't recall anything like these guys have written before them.

It was all pretty horsey stories and human interest stories and the occasional handicapping insight.

Good luck getting an answer.

[Jeff P]

I recall many an article or letter to the editor printed in paper issues of the DRF from the 1980's (the time frame I'm referring to) where the author voiced his opinion from a horseplayer's vantage point. Understand that this was before (at least to the best of my knowledge) current day topics such as ADWs, signal wars, rebates, slap on the wrist penalties for drug positives, decreases in field size, fewer starts per year per horse, odds that change after the bell, excessively high takeout compared to other forms of gaming, etc. had made their way into the public spotlight. Maybe issues like that existed at the time. But if they did, I (as in me personally) was completely oblivious to them.

But the topics of the day that I was aware of as a player... stuff like horses that were DQ'd based on questionable calls, a weight assignment in a stakes race that the author deemed ridiculous, a lack of exotics on a track's wagering menu, etc. - I seem to recall enough editorial content in those areas presented from a player's point of view sprinkled in with the horsey stuff - to at least give me the impression that the DRF did in fact have the player's back.

Older articles and letters to the editor from the 1980's (the time frame I'm referring to) don't appear to be archived anywhere on the DRF site. (If they are and I'm simply not seeing it, somebody please point me in the right direction.)

Poking around the DRF site I did find this article from 2006 where Beyer laid into Magna for ruining the paddock at Gulfstream Park. The fact that he was willing to tell the world what he really thought and not give a damn earned my respect.

The $171 million question 01/16/2006
ANDREW BEYER Andrew Beyer HALLANDALE BEACH, Fla. - For decades, Gulfstream Park has been one of the most pleasant racetracks on earth. Its distinguishing feature was the large paddock ...
http://www.drf.com/news/171-million-question

But last year, when I asked him to consider reporting on the takeout increase in California, and when he wrote me back and told me basically that there was no story there... Hopefully some of you reading can at least understand where I am coming from.

So yeah, sour grapes are involved here. As a player advocate, I can't help but feel a little betrayed by those whose body of work had led players to believe they were player advocates too - but who when given the chance purposely chose to do nothing.

But that doesn't mean I harbor ill will towards them. If you think I feel the least bit of joy over recent events as relates to NYRA, Hayward, and Crist you would be dead wrong.


-jp

.

[castaway01]

I'd still like to know who these big horseplayer advocates were before Beyer and Crist. I honestly don't know. I've read the form for 30 years and don't recall anything like these guys have written before them.

It was all pretty horsey stories and human interest stories and the occasional handicapping insight.

I remember a lot of "Field of 7 Set for Belmont Feature" with brief overviews of the horses and their connections, maybe a trainer quote or two. Very generic stuff.

[cj]

I didn't say it hasn't changed recently, just about times past which seemed to be the point of the article. I remember being frustrated often at how little was actually there for the bettor outside of PPs. Maybe I don't remember back far enough, but if there were these writers, who are they? I'm not even asking what they wrote about specifically, just a name or two.

Anybody that looks at the DRF site now can find articles where Beyer takes on some tough issues, and so does Crist. Hell, there is one still posted where Crist writes NYRA's takeouts on exotics need to be lowered further even after the reduction to 24% after Takeout Gate.

[jelly]

Andy Beyer says there's no story there when referring to the California takeout increase? :lol:




It's very hard to find anyone with influence or leadership positions that has any balls. :(

[Indulto]

I didn't type the first part you responded to, CJ did.Sorry about that. For some reason the regular editor doesn't always properly display things I cut and paste into it and so I have to use WORD to clean it up or else retype it all. Everything is up for grabs when that happens. ;) Here's what it all boils down in this situation for me, and I understand I'm probably in the minority. I'm fine with that.

HANA felt slighted many months ago. They are happy (for lack of a better word, and you insult my intelligence when you pretend it's anything other than happiness coming across by some of you) with whatever situation Crist and the DRF are in now because of that perceived slight.Only you have any control over what insults you, but as your attitude seems to consistently suggest that everything insults you, maybe that isn't true. Even though some individual posters in this thread belong to HANA, I don't think it's accurate to assume their positions represent those of the organization.Call me crazy, but when I think of how I would want a group that claims to give me a voice as a horseplayer acting, taking glee in others misfortunes isn't that way. It's unprofessional.Does characterizing errors in judgement as misfortunes show respect for the intelligence of your opposition?

Can you define what a professional horseplayer advocate is and how one should behave? Exactly what DO you expect from a horseplayer advocacy group or don't you think there is any need for one? Specifically, what would HANA have to do to get your support? Please grace us with some intelligence worth insulting when you answer. :D The sport is better for having people like Crist involved. Much better.Finally, something we can agree on.

[Dahoss9698]

I'm not interested in playing your games. No one is.

[Indulto]

I'm not interested in playing your games. No one is.A completely predictable response, Sunshine. Nobody can accuse you of taking as good as you give.

[usedtolovetvg]

I would think that most people are exposed because the person blowing the whistle has a personal ax to grind, not necessarily for the good of humanity; a disgruntled ex-employee, a jilted lover or a business deal gone bad. From my perspective I could care less. The end justifies the means.

[proximity]

i'll take the old days (whatever they were) over player advocate crist's multiple price raises before it's even time to renew my subscription. :rolleyes:

and what kind of player advocate gives "rewards" like drf bets? :rolleyes:

the beyer numbers are the only value the drf has... period.

[mountainman]

I grew up on drf pp's and do think one or two of their columnists make an effort to have player's backs. But beyond that, the articles-especially on big races or trainers- are too laudatory. Why an indispensable publication with a hammerlock on the industry finds it necessary to bang the drum daily on two and three time winners with EVERYTHING to prove simply baffles me. By all means, interview the owner or trainer who is BOUND to gush about some green prospect-but MUST drf writers (who know better) adopt the same breathless tone? Is THAT the price for having an innocuous question or two answered for an article? And must drf rave about every sub 48 half turned in by a stakes horse? Puhleez, drf, the industry needs you nearly as much as you need it, so curtail the cheerleading and keep it objective.

[usedtolovetvg]

I have thought, for a long time anyway, you became a DRF writer so that you could hang out and party with people that were well beyond your social sphere. Now, there must be some that buy the Form for the articles. I know that's why I used to buy Playboy :rolleyes: .

[jelly]

Interesting read from 1993.




Daily Racing Form Fighting For Its Life.


Jack Farnsworth, who became the president and chief executive officer of the Daily Racing Form last year, insists "there absolutely will be a newspaper" in the future. "I don't see any likelihood that Daily Racing Form is going to go away," he said from his office in New York.

Even so, there are changes on the horizon, Farnsworth said. Among plans for the newspaper are:

-- A Spanish-language edition by the end of 1993, to sell in Latin America, Mexico and places in the United States with a heavy Latin population such as Florida, Southern California and Texas.

-- Possibly expanding into Asia. Farnsworth was to discuss this recently with a Japanese racing representative.

"The Daily Racing Form has lost its raison d'etre, which was they were the guys with the data," said Steve Crist. He is former editor of The Racing Times, a daily news and betting paper whose assets were bought out last February by K-III Communications, which also owns the Racing Form


The Form might find competition even on the journalistic front, however. Crist said several people have been talking about starting racing news services that either can be downloaded into personal computers or inserted in track programs.

"To survive, the Form will have to reinvent itself and improve itself as a newspaper," Crist said.

He suggested that whether or not the Racing Form ends up buying its data from Equibase, it will have to go beyond offering the raw numbers it gives now in the traditional past-performance lines.

The Form will have to go into sophisticated realms like pace analysis to make an appeal to serious bettors, Crist said. "Things that will make people say, "I have to spend an extra $3 a day.' "

The Racing Form has begun bracing for the future in other ways, by streamlining from within. Last month, the Form cut two major editors' jobs and abruptly dismissed the people in those jobs.



Link here.
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19930110&slug=1679232

[affirmedny]

The author of the piece hasn't admitted that is was sour grapes. I believe the article I posted proves that the author isn't driven by emotion. Jeff admits that he has sour grapes regarding Crist though.

And you have had some sour grapes in the past regarding Crist as well, no? If I'm not mistaken you are the author of the following:

http://cangamble.blogspot.com/2011/01/crist-you-know-it-aint-easy.html

The fact that he never mentions HANA by name seems to rankle you guys to no end or maybe he just doesn't happen to think Keeneland is the best track in America or something like that ........

[thaskalos]

We are all human, so we are fallible...and we sometimes do things that work out to our detriment in the end.

We may have friends working at the NYRA (or the IRB, or the TOC), so we feel obligated to defend these organizations...even when they commit an injustice, and cause us horseplayers harm.

And we develop genuine fondness for the Steven Crists of this game -- because we recognize what they bring to our sport -- and are quick to jump to their side, even when the evidence suggests that they have misbehaved badly...by exercising terrible judgement at crucial times.

There would be no harm in actions such as these...were it not for the fact that they make the horseplayer's burden in this game even heavier than it already is.

We all know how adversarial the racing industry's relationship with us horseplayers already is...and we also know that the horseplayers are the only active participants in this sport without any "voice" in the game whatsoever.

Many of us, myself included, have lamented the fact that there is no unified governing body in this game...to better tackle the many obstacles it currently faces.

Since we recognize the need for unity in the industry...why can't we recognize the need for unity among the horseplayers?

When are we going to realize that no one cares about us...but us?

And when will we come to the realization, that any organization -- or person - who doesn't treat us with the respect we deserve...does not deserve our loyalty?

As we have seen here...the different facets of this industry often work together in order to accomplish what they consider important....

Do we?

[Indulto]

Horseplayers UNITE!

… Since we recognize the need for unity in the industry...why can't we recognize the need for unity among the horseplayers?

When are we going to realize that no one cares about us...but us?

And when will we come to the realization, that any organization -- or person - who doesn't treat us with the respect we deserve...does not deserve our loyalty?

As we have seen here...the different facets of this industry often work together in order to accomplish what they consider important....

Do we?What do we have in common that is sufficient to overcome what divides us -- particularly the petty jealousies already apparent in this thread?

Is it even possible to achieve unity given that we compete against one another, and edge-seeking is the dominant train of thought among us?

What characteristics, qualities, and/or types of leadership could appeal to the diverse interests among people who bet on horse races? What models for organization, strategy, and tactics might be effective in acquiring greater influence?

[riskman]

What characteristics, qualities, and/or types of leadership could appeal to the diverse interests among people who bet on horse races? What models for organization, strategy, and tactics might be effective in acquiring greater influence?

Luigi "Baby Shacks" Manocchio appears to be a no nonsense type guy that could exert great influence on this game. Unfortunately, Baby Shacks is pushing 85 and might be spending some time in the slammer soon. The big guy claims he has "nine lives" so he may yet be available.

[cj]

I have no problem with holding those accountable when it is needed. However, I just don't think we have all the facts, so I'm willing to wait and play devil's advocate. Haven't we seen this before with NYRA?

Jockey Weight-Gate?
Maitre D' Gate?

Everything seems so clear in the beginning, but it often unravels under closer scrutiny.

[The Hawk]

Hayward and Kehoe were just fired.

Statement from NYRA chairman Steven Duncker says Hayward and Kehoe "failed to perform their duties at a level required by the board."

[usedtolovetvg]

I have no problem with holding those accountable when it is needed. However, I just don't think we have all the facts, so I'm willing to wait and play devil's advocate. Haven't we seen this before with NYRA?

Jockey Weight-Gate?
Maitre D' Gate?

Everything seems so clear in the beginning, but it often unravels under closer scrutiny.

Well, at least you didn't have to wait to long. Now, they can cover up the really bad s*** that went on.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Why should the DRF advocate for anything? Why is that their role?

[cj]

Well, at least you didn't have to wait to long. Now, they can cover up the really bad s*** that went on.

The fact they were fired doesn't change anything. We still don't know all the facts. It was probably strictly a PR move at this point.

[usedtolovetvg]

The fact they were fired doesn't change anything. We still don't know all the facts. It was probably strictly a PR move at this point.

I hope when I get arrested, you are on the jury.

[cj]

I hope when I get arrested, you are on the jury.

If I had to give a verdict right now, I'd say guilty. However, nobody has heard much from the defendant yet.

[usedtolovetvg]

If I had to give a verdict right now, I'd say guilty. However, nobody has heard much from the defendant yet.

Oh, I did it.

[cj]

No trial in that case, I'm not needed.

[usedtolovetvg]

No trial in that case, I'm not needed.

I'll plead not guilty and deny everything.

[cj]

Pleaded? Come on, that hurt my brain.

[usedtolovetvg]

From Websters:

plead verb \ˈplēd\
plead·ed or pled

[cj]

From Websters:

plead verb \ˈplēd\
plead·ed or pled

I never said it was wrong.

[PaceAdvantage]

Well, at least you didn't have to wait to long. Now, they can cover up the really bad s*** that went on.Like what, oh wise one?

[PaceAdvantage]

I hope when I get arrested, you are on the jury.Arrested... :lol:

When will the silliness end?

There's enough ambiguity in the code that comprises NY Racing Law that would tend to make this a slam-dunk for even the most incompetent defense attorney.

In the highly unlikely event any criminal charges are brought (and if it's politically expedient, you can bet they will be brought no matter how flimsy it all may be), the likely defendant(s) shouldn't lose a second of sleep over it...

[usedtolovetvg]

I was actually not talking about Chuck and Pat. It was just another failed bit. I don't think we'll hear much more about them unless they decide to sue.

[usedtolovetvg]

Like what, oh wise one?

Total incompetence on many levels.

[PaceAdvantage]

I was looking for a little more in the way of specifics...

[usedtolovetvg]

I was looking for a little more in the way of specifics...

I don't know how much we'll ever be privy to but the more I read, it seems I'm finding more agencies that should have been aware that the takeout was not lowered. Clearly, whatever safeguards are in place all failed. How deep the investigation digs is anyone's guess. I am beginning to believe that Hayward was just dumb and he wanted Crist to keep it quiet because he didn't want anyone to know that the takeout could be lowered, he probably didn't know that it had to be lowered. Imagine the outrage if horse players found out that the takeout could be lowered but Hayward, the self-proclaimed champion of the lower takeout, didn't do it because of the political pressures and the money that was needed. That was why he was waiting for Saratoga. Crist did no investigation and just took his friend's word for it. If Crist had really been a journalist he probably could have saved his friend a lot of aggravation and the horse players a lot of money. As much as I want to believe in conspiracy theories, I keep forgetting how lazy and dumb these execs are. For me, I also would like to know which gambling outfits ended up with money that is not rightfully theirs. I guess we may never know that but a thorough audit would tell us.