Grass races.

[bigga 1]

When is early speed most potent on grass as opposed to late?

[Valuist]

When the ground is rock hard or the turf has been all chewed up from use (see replays from March at the FG or GP).

[cj]

Rails out, the farther the better for speed.

[Dan Montilion]

When I've sent it in on the closers.

[Greyfox]

When there's a long speed horse capable of sneaking away and stealing the race.
Other than that, I generally don't like to play front running types on turf.

[Harvhorse]

When there is only one speed in race or when early pace is projected to be very slow.

[FrankieFigs]

Rails out, the farther the better for speed.

I think this is the biggest factor of all that is mostly overlooked by the masses.

Love races with a lone front-runner with the rail out.....

[gm10]

A wet surface (or indeed a worn surface), and in the case of routes, when there's a lack of other early speed. Not sure about the rail being moved out, that might be related to wet/worn surfaces.

Also, although this is of less use in North America, the track configuration is very important. When the turf track isn't very tight (like Woodbine), it will suit the gallopers that race close to the lead much better than the closers.

Another factor that is often ignored is the class level of the race. There's usually a lack of quality late speed in low-level turf races which obviously is of benefit to horses on or near the lead.

In general my view is that tired or untalented horses will not show much late speed.

[CincyHorseplayer]

If you use Quirin style speed points and they add up to 15 or less and the horses who have those numbers qualify as contenders,they usually do run their race.Speed on the turf is by far my most profitable angle in racing,and it doesn't absolutely have to be a lone speed horse or amount to 2 races a week.There are enough paceless turf races out there.At first it might take a leap of faith from you but the odds are very generous.I blasted a $74 double to El padrino at 4/5 at the Fair Grounds because the lone speed horse the following race was 7-1 on the turf and the combination was dead.

Like others have said I see speed do well on turf in the summer,when it's wet,and when rails are out.Do your due diligence with this angle and it will be well worth it.

[AndyC]

Rails out, the farther the better for speed.

Why?

[setup]

@ SAR, the past few years

combination of poodle fractions with a colony of superstar jocks that just continue to take back

and

hard courses

[plainolebill]

Younger horses, 2 and early 3yos with not much seasoning speed is more of a factor - at least in Socal.

[jeebus1083]

Why?

The further the rail is out, the tighter the turns. Makes it harder for closers to make a balcony sweep, especially since there is less room. It also changes the position of the timing poles, which means a race will likely start closer to the turn than when the rails are down.

[bigga 1]

The rail is out 25,30,40 even 60 feet,there's going to be the early speed provided the horse on the front can carry the distance....that my friends is true but just for a couple of days until the grass gets trampeled.The same early speed holds when they put it back to (0) and the reason behind it is not the tight turns its the fresh footing.I thought that for many years until i realized that when the put the rail back to 0feet early speed would still hold for at least a couple days providing the amount of turf races they had within that time frame...........remember its not some much the tight turns or the slow front end speed but the fresh grass.....check it out...you'll be amazed.

[JustRalph]

When I've sent it in on the closers.

Now that was my first thought too............ :lol:

[sovereign]

The further the rail is out, the tighter the turns.
How does this make turns tighter?

[AndyC]

The further the rail is out, the tighter the turns. Makes it harder for closers to make a balcony sweep, especially since there is less room. It also changes the position of the timing poles, which means a race will likely start closer to the turn than when the rails are down.

So with that logic horses running on the outer turf courses at Belmont or Saratoga should have a distinct advantage on the front end.

[AndyC]

The rail is out 25,30,40 even 60 feet,there's going to be the early speed provided the horse on the front can carry the distance....that my friends is true but just for a couple of days until the grass gets trampeled.The same early speed holds when they put it back to (0) and the reason behind it is not the tight turns its the fresh footing.I thought that for many years until i realized that when the put the rail back to 0feet early speed would still hold for at least a couple days providing the amount of turf races they had within that time frame...........remember its not some much the tight turns or the slow front end speed but the fresh grass.....check it out...you'll be amazed.

So all the times I witnessed the turf courses becoming more speed friendly as the meet progressed due to the wear and tear of the grass was all in my head?

[bigga 1]

So all the times I witnessed the turf courses becoming more speed friendly as the meet progressed due to the wear and tear of the grass was all in my head?
Those rails get moved in and out as well so pay close attention from one week to the next,or the following week.

[bigga 1]

So all the times I witnessed the turf courses becoming more speed friendly as the meet progressed due to the wear and tear of the grass was all in my head?
If you start documenting the rail movements at the tracks you play you will find that turf racing becomes more profitable.....That goes for both inner and outer turf courses.The rail gets moved today,bingo is called for early speed........stays for a few days then it starts turnig to late speed or pressers.

[AndyC]

If you start documenting the rail movements at the tracks you play you will find that turf racing becomes more profitable.....That goes for both inner and outer turf courses.The rail gets moved today,bingo is called for early speed........stays for a few days then it starts turnig to late speed or pressers.

I have charted rail positions on every turf course in the US for over 20 years. I am amazed every time I hear about how speed is going to dominate with the rails up. If that's what you want to believe by all means keep on believing. Each turf course has it's own characteristics and there are certainly no hard and fast rules you can rely on in general for rail placement on the turf.

[bigga 1]

I have charted rail positions on every turf course in the US for over 20 years. I am amazed every time I hear about how speed is going to dominate with the rails up. If that's what you want to believe by all means keep on believing. Each turf course has it's own characteristics and there are certainly no hard and fast rules you can rely on in general for rail placement on the turf.
I don't mean to change your mindset or beliefs but just to share what i focus on and play to make a living at.The only difference with some turf courses is that the grass is more like dirt as a result of weather conditions hence i just don't play them.I also don't think you read what i said,its all about fresh grass
reguardless if the rail is out or at 0,its all about fresh grass and if the speed can carry the distance if not the early presser will pick up the pieces.Also a reminder that this dosen't happen for a prolonged period,only for a couple of days max or unless it rains then it starts all over again.Just wanted to share hanicapping angles that you will never find in a book.Caught (2) last weekend at hollywood park. Last weekend....first weekend of racing rail at 12' guess what, early speeeeeeed..........caught (2) yesterday rail still at 12' guess what........dead closers.......the 6/5 in one race couldn't hit the board because he was early speed.

[AndyC]

I don't mean to change your mindset or beliefs but just to share what i focus on and play to make a living at.The only difference with some turf courses is that the grass is more like dirt as a result of weather conditions hence i just don't play them.I also don't think you read what i said,its all about fresh grass
reguardless if the rail is out or at 0,its all about fresh grass and if the speed can carry the distance if not the early presser will pick up the pieces.Also a reminder that this dosen't happen for a prolonged period,only for a couple of days max or unless it rains then it starts all over again.Just wanted to share hanicapping angles that you will never find in a book.Caught (2) last weekend at hollywood park. Last weekend....first weekend of racing rail at 12' guess what, early speeeeeeed..........caught (2) yesterday rail still at 12' guess what........dead closers.......the 6/5 in one race couldn't hit the board because he was early speed.

Do me a favor and point out which tracks have "fresh grass" today and we will see how your theory holds up. And also tell which tracks have switched from "fresh grass" to something other than "fresh grass", let's call it "stale grass". Clearly if it is frontrunners on "fresh" and closers on "stale" we should be able to line our wallets with the other green stuff.

[andicap]

Do me a favor and point out which tracks have "fresh grass" today and we will see how your theory holds up. And also tell which tracks have switched from "fresh grass" to something other than "fresh grass", let's call it "stale grass". Clearly if it is frontrunners on "fresh" and closers on "stale" we should be able to line our wallets with the other green stuff.

This wouldn't be the same AndyC from Prodigy lo so many years ago?

[bigga 1]

Do me a favor and point out which tracks have "fresh grass" today and we will see how your theory holds up. And also tell which tracks have switched from "fresh grass" to something other than "fresh grass", let's call it "stale grass". Clearly if it is frontrunners on "fresh" and closers on "stale" we should be able to line our wallets with the other green stuff.
I'm not in the buisness of trying to prove anything to you or anybody i'm not in a contest i'm merely stating what i know(personel experience)so if you doubt my statment you do the research,and if you don't your loss.....remember my object as a professional is to make money and enjoy my life. :bang:

[AndyC]

I'm not in the buisness of trying to prove anything to you or anybody i'm not in a contest i'm merely stating what i know(personel experience)so if you doubt my statment you do the research,and if you don't your loss.....remember my object as a professional is to make money and enjoy my life. :bang:

I would love to do the research. I'm just trying to get a handle on "fresh grass". How is it defined? If rails are up for only 3 days and then returned to zero is the grass fresh again? What if the grass has been freshly mowed? What if it hasn't been mowed for a couple of weeks? How does watering or give in the ground affect "fresh grass"?

So if I read you correctly, your knowledge is from personal experience and not from a study of the data covering many tacks and many races. If so, that doesn't make you wrong. If nothing else, it is an interesting way of looking at a grass race.

[MightBeSosa]

The further the rail is out, the tighter the turns. Makes it harder for closers to make a balcony sweep, especially since there is less room. It also changes the position of the timing poles, which means a race will likely start closer to the turn than when the rails are down.

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/3149/railout.jpg

Huh? Just the opposite last time I looked. In an alternate universe you may be correct, just not this one.

Which brings up the issue of why would a wider turn help speed?http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/ourgame/images/practice_planner/giveandgodrill.jpgnull

[Valuist]

Bravo's ride on Little Mike was bizarre, if not effective. It looked like he clearly intimidated Get Stormy and Turbo Compressor. I guess if you break on top and another speed wants to come to your outside, you shift over before he can get there. Then when he wants to cut inside, again you take that spot.

Too bad Cordero isn't still riding. If he was on Get Stormy he probably would've decked Bravo after the race.

[Some_One]

I was thinking he went out for quicker ground