Probe of NYRA execs may be launched - NYRA may lose slots subsidies [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

samyn on the green

04-30-2012, 11:25 AM

This is Cuomo jumping in on behalf of his oriental masters in Malaysia & New York. If the local oligarchy can just besmirch NYRA enough -they are hitting them hard today in the Times- and show how cruel horse racing is racing can be cut out of the casino parasite game. It is a game of take the moral ground and then take the profits. It will be played over and over until racing is gone and casino profits can expand.

With racing exterminated in NY the casino can be expanded. Racing is a parasite sucking good casino profit into the pockets of unconnected horse owners. Why should these owners get casino profits? Why do they deserve charity?

When racing is destroyed the profits can be concentrated between the oriental masters in NY and and abroad. If NY is so concerned about life why don't they extend the same concern that they are extending to the 30 horses that died this winter to the thousands of babies that are killed in the womb every month in NY?

This a a classic example of the gnostic duality we live with in the modern world. The exoteric truth told to the world is that Cuomo cares about horses and cares about life. The real or esoteric truth is that Cuomo does not give a crap about life (they kill thousands of babies a day in this country) and this whole campaign is an attempt to expand their casino, enslave the poor to electronic gambling vices and expand their hold on casino profit.

04-30-2012, 11:55 AM

Moved, not handicapping.

Robert Goren

04-30-2012, 12:22 PM

Isn't this old news?

Robert Goren

04-30-2012, 12:28 PM

How does abortion get drug into a horse racing discussion?

FenceBored

04-30-2012, 12:50 PM

Isn't this old news?

I didn't know this before: In a reply [to Steve Crist], Mr. Hayward said the association had meant to address the issue but “political forces intervened.” After facing steep losses and being “smacked around by Cuomo,” they decided to wait to address the issue, he wrote.

Mr. Crist, a former New York Times reporter and a former racing association executive, agreed to keep the discussion confidential. Months later, in a column, he said the association made “an honest mistake.”
-- http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/30/nyregion/state-report-says-race-track-owners-knowingly-withheld-millions.html

Ocala Mike

04-30-2012, 01:01 PM

I was thinking the same thing, Robert. I guess the answer is "because it can!"

Surprised that Obama wasn't mentioned; it's all his fault, right?

usedtolovetvg

04-30-2012, 02:02 PM

Anytime corruption is exposed, no matter what the motive, it's a good thing. Wonder where that money when? :eek:

thaskalos

04-30-2012, 02:11 PM

If evidence exists -- as these emails seem to indicate -- proving that the NYRA leaders willingly refused to lower the takeouts, in spite of state law demanding that they do so...then this shines a different light on this entire takeout fiasco.

And this light allows us to get a better look at Mr. Hayward and Mr. Crist...who agreed to keep this matter "confidential"...and then were quick to report that the "oversight" was purely accidental, when it was later discovered by the state auditors.

And I had always thought that Steven Crist was a "real" horse racing journalist...

usedtolovetvg

04-30-2012, 02:31 PM

04-30-2012, 02:36 PM

It would be foolish to think that a racing publication or writer that received advertising $$$ from any racing corporation would choose to expose them if they were aware of any corruption. That would be professional suicide.

Papers do this ALL THE TIME. It just proves the point that the true "journalists" in racing are few and far between.

thaskalos

04-30-2012, 02:38 PM

It would be foolish to think that a racing publication or writer that received advertising $$$ from any racing corporation would choose to expose them if they were aware of any corruption. That would be professional suicide.

If they are unwilling to expose corruption in an industry like horse racing...then what do we need these "journalists" for?

To tell us cute stories about the trainers and their wives?

DeanT

04-30-2012, 02:43 PM

More details released here
http://blog.timesunion.com/capitol/archives/128711/report-says-nyra-president-mislead-the-public-on-overcharges/

Includes the full emails from Crist and Charlie. As well, the ever present Paceadvantage link to this story (the email from "Rutgers")

usedtolovetvg

04-30-2012, 02:47 PM

Papers do this ALL THE TIME. It just proves the point that the true "journalists" in racing are few and far between.

I would say non-existent.

04-30-2012, 02:58 PM

If they are unwilling to expose corruption in an industry like horse racing...then what do we need these "journalists" for?

To tell us cute stories about the trainers and their wives?

I've always been a big fan of Crist, but I won't be surprised if this gets him in some hot water.

usedtolovetvg

04-30-2012, 03:05 PM

I've always been a big fan of Crist, but I won't be surprised if this gets him in some hot water.

Knowing what you know now, are you still a fan? IMO, that ponytail always made me think he was a bit off.

thaskalos

04-30-2012, 03:06 PM

I've always been a big fan of Crist, but I won't be surprised if this gets him in some hot water.

I was a fan of his too...but he deserves to get in hot water for this one.

Not only did he agree to cover-up this illegality...but he was also quick to report that the oversight was accidental -- even though he knew otherwise...

Hardly the unbiased view required of a "real" journalist...

04-30-2012, 04:06 PM

I was a fan of his too...but he deserves to get in hot water for this one.

Not only did he agree to cover-up this illegality...but he was also quick to report that the oversight was accidental -- even though he knew otherwise...

Hardly the unbiased view required of a "real" journalist...

I honestly don't believe this is as cut and dried as it appears. Anything, even emails, can be twisted to fit an agenda. I'd like to see the whole exchange with no editing.

The one thing that really gives me pause is that the original e-mail was forwarded to the legal department. If there was a grand cover up, why do that? Now, I'm not saying these guys are blameless, I just think they didn't know what was involved. I could be right, I could be wrong, and I guess time will tell.

All that said, lets be brutally honest why this is an issue. S-L-O-T-S. Slots and the money they provide that many don't want going to horse racing. By many, I mean the highest level in the state and his cronies. If anybody believes differently, I think he is being naive. There are two sides to every story, so I'm going to wait and hear the other first. I just don't think this came out by accident from a government agency.

Indulto

04-30-2012, 04:20 PM

Now we know that
1) when Chickenhead speaks, NYS government is listening.:jump:

2) Rutgers should run for HANA president. :ThmbUp:

Edward DeVere

04-30-2012, 04:24 PM

Somebody got a lot of 'splainin' to do - and that somebody's name is Steve Crist.

Canarsie

04-30-2012, 04:54 PM

All that said, lets be brutally honest why this is an issue. S-L-O-T-S. Slots and the money they provide that many don't want going to horse racing. By many, I mean the highest level in the state and his cronies. If anybody believes differently, I think he is being naive. There are two sides to every story, so I'm going to wait and hear the other first. I just don't think this came out by accident from a government agency.

Brilliant observation considering the gov wants to expand the casino beyond slots. If I recall correctly though NYRA still owns the land maybe someone who knows more about this can shed some light.

This needs to play out before strong opinions are finalized. Just take a look at Bernie Fine and the press. The case is cracking and there is hardly any media outlets stating that.

People thought I was crazy when I stated this casino has the best location in the country by a country mile. Me thinks the gov and his cronies have woken up and thought the same thing. His brain trust is saying lets bring lots of money to state coffers from an untapped source.

04-30-2012, 04:57 PM

Brilliant observation considering the gov wants to expand the casino beyond slots. If I recall correctly though NYRA still owns the land maybe someone who knows more about this can shed some light.

This needs to play out before strong opinions are finalized. Just take a look at Bernie Fine and the press. The case is cracking and there is hardly any media outlets stating that.

People thought I was crazy when I stated this casino has the best location in the country by a country mile. Me thinks the gov and his cronies have woken up and thought the same thing. His brain trust is saying lets bring lots of money to state coffers from an untapped source.

Pretty sure they gave up the land claim as part of being given the long term lease.

usedtolovetvg

04-30-2012, 04:58 PM

The one thing that really gives me pause is that the original e-mail was forwarded to the legal department. If there was a grand cover up, why do that?

Just like the Walmart bribery scandal, the legal department always gets involved. Anything done internally is designed to cover things up. I think we can all agree that nobody does this better than lawyers.

All that said, lets be brutally honest why this is an issue. S-L-O-T-S. Slots and the money they provide that many don't want going to horse racing. By many, I mean the highest level in the state and his cronies. If anybody believes differently, I think he is being naive. There are two sides to every story, so I'm going to wait and hear the other first. I just don't think this came out by accident from a government agency.

I'm sure you are right. But, from my point of view, anything that exposes corruption, regardless of the agenda, is a good thing. In all probability, the slot guys will get theirs too.

Canarsie

04-30-2012, 05:07 PM

Pretty sure they gave up the land claim as part of being given the long term lease.

Right on the money but its getting really ugly already.

"A failure to meet this most fundamental obligation puts into doubt the continued efficacy of the state's franchise agreement with NYRA."

http://blog.pennlive.com/patriotnewssports/2012/04/report_new_york_racing_authori.html

04-30-2012, 05:12 PM

Right on the money but its getting really ugly already.

"A failure to meet this most fundamental obligation puts into doubt the continued efficacy of the state's franchise agreement with NYRA."

http://blog.pennlive.com/patriotnewssports/2012/04/report_new_york_racing_authori.html

Of course, that is the ultimate goal.

lamboguy

04-30-2012, 05:14 PM

New York racing officials have declined to comment

Robert Goren

04-30-2012, 05:14 PM

Only a fool would think that the state of NY would not want that slot money. The only surprising thing about it was how fast they went after it.

usedtolovetvg

04-30-2012, 05:26 PM

Only a fool would think that the state of NY would not want that slot money. The only surprising thing about it was how fast they went after it.

And NYRA's self-serving leadership has given them that opportunity.

Jasonm921

04-30-2012, 05:55 PM

Basically this is my take on this issue...Cuomo wants legalized gambling (table games). they are 1/3 the way through that process and two years away from almost certainly getting it approved (takes 3 years in NY). The land was signed over by NYRA as a condition of keeping their state franchise....which they have for 30 years UNLESS they violate or show consistent behavior that they are deficient in certain categories which are as follows----from the Blood Horse in 2008.

"A series of “performance standards" is being imposed on NYRA, which will have to meet certain benchmarks relating to number of New York-bred races, jockey and equine safety, backstretch conditions, and handle and attendance figures. The standards will be reviewed every four years by the state, and NYRA could lose its franchise for failing to meet the conditions. However, language inserted into the final legislation says NYRA must “use its best efforts" to meet the standards, suggesting some wiggle room in the mandate."

Read more: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/43634/nyra-wins-25-year-franchise#ixzz1tYyfGpH3

At which point Cuomo yanks the franchise....sells the Aqueduct land to Resorts and places Belmont and Saratoga on the auction block for the highest bidder to run that franchise....that is most likely Albany's end game here.

FenceBored

04-30-2012, 06:03 PM

Story at the Saratogian has the full report from the NYSWRB.

This is part of Hayward's email to Crist on Page 8 of the report:"Since we are showing substantial losses in 2010 and 2011 and we have been smacked around by Cuomo (and he could check the SRWB from approving), we decided to wait. Also, the regional OTBs who collectively lost money in 2010 will scream like stuck pigs and that would provoke Skelos who is very tight with the guys who run Nassau OTB to introduce anti-NYRA legislation for the benefit of the OTBs. Finally, we are quietly working on a plan to open 10 or so restaurant/bars in the city and we did not want the politicos to block this effort."
-- http://www.saratogian.com/articles/2012/04/30/news/doc4f9ec4f5a1612647033739.txt?viewmode=fullstory

04-30-2012, 06:07 PM

Story at the Saratogian has the full report from the NYSWRB.

This is part of Hayward's email to Crist on Page 8 of the report:"Since we are showing substantial losses in 2010 and 2011 and we have beensmacked around by Cuomo (and he could check the SRWB from approving), we decided to wait. Also, the regional OTBs who collectively lost money in 2010 will scream like stuck pigs and thatwould provoke Skelos who is very tight with the guys who run Nassau OTB to introduce anti-NYRA legislation for the benefit of the OTBs. Finally, we are quietly working on a plan to open 10 or so restaurant/bars in the city and we did not want the politicos to block this effort."
-- http://www.saratogian.com/articles/2012/04/30/news/doc4f9ec4f5a1612647033739.txt?viewmode=fullstory

They need to publish the whole e-mail.

"(and he could check the SRWB from approving)"
and
"we decided to wait"

sounds to me like he thought there was a choice and/or approval was needed.

FenceBored

04-30-2012, 06:32 PM

They need to publish the whole e-mail.

"(and he could check the SRWB from approving)"
and
"we decided to wait"

sounds to me like he thought there was a choice and/or approval was needed.

More of the email is in the report at the link, but no, there's no way to tell if the entire body of the email is in the report.

I'm trying to picture this. NYRA goes to the NYSWRB and says, "Um, we need to lower these takeout rates due to the sunsetting of the 2008 law." What's the Board really going to say? Is anyone really going to make the argument that the Board, in a public meeting, is going to say, "No, you have to break the law." Just not seeing it happen.

04-30-2012, 06:35 PM

More of the email is in the report at the link, but no, there's no way to tell if the entire body of the email is in the report.

I'm trying to picture this. NYRA goes to the NYSWRB and says, "Um, we need to lower these takeout rates due to the sunsetting of the 2008 law." What's the Board really going to say? Is anyone really going to make the argument that the Board, in a public meeting, is going to say, "No, you have to break the law." Just not seeing it happen.

Exactly, which is why I think he thought it was an option to request to lower rates. It makes no sense in the context in which it is portrayed.

Jasonm921

04-30-2012, 06:52 PM

Just read that hayward and vp placed on non pay admin leave.

usedtolovetvg

04-30-2012, 06:55 PM

The arrogance of these guys really lets believe they are above the law. And, when they have the industry's leading journal in their hip pocket well... :jump:

Canarsie

04-30-2012, 07:11 PM

The arrogance of these guys really lets believe they are above the law. And, when they have the industry's leading journal in their hip pocket well... :jump:

I don't know why your happy and want to celebrate. The tracks that I was brought up on has its management team in turmoil right now. If you actually believe this is good for racing I have a bridge to sell you.

I just hope generations after my passing have the opportunity to play the races in New York. Whether NYRA is right or wrong I don't want to see them go into receivership that doesn't turn out too well most times.

DeanT

04-30-2012, 07:15 PM

Drape reporting that Charlie H has been put on administrative leave

http://twitter.com/#!/joedrape/status/197094771309817856

Charles Hayward put on administrative leave by #NYRA (https://twitter.com/#%21/search/%23NYRA). Here's email chain between he and Crist on bettor overcharges http://bit.ly/IBmAtE (http://t.co/BFbQDVHd)

DeanT

04-30-2012, 07:17 PM

DRF link up now.

http://www.drf.com/news/nyra-puts-two-officials-leave-after-state-issues-report-takeout-errors

usedtolovetvg

04-30-2012, 07:30 PM

I don't know why your happy and want to celebrate. The tracks that I was brought up on has its management team in turmoil right now. If you actually believe this is good for racing I have a bridge to sell you.

I just hope generations after my passing have the opportunity to play the races in New York. Whether NYRA is right or wrong I don't want to see them go into receivership that doesn't turn out too well most times.

That was not me jumping for joy that was supposed to be the NYRA Execs. I guess that bit didn't work. I apologize. Actually I have been saddened by the state of the industry for many years.

PaceAdvantage

04-30-2012, 07:51 PM

Hayward and Kehoe are going to serve time. You can take that to the bank.Why? You're the second to say this, but nobody is explaining why...

I'm not a lawyer and I can already see plenty of holes in this line of thinking.

Just the massive bureaucracy alone involved with how takeout rates are raised and lowered in NY state is enough to introduce reasonable doubt on whatever stretch you're able to introduce that this was somehow criminal in nature.

If I were a betting man, I'd wager you're way wrong in your assessment.

lamboguy

04-30-2012, 08:54 PM

Why? You're the second to say this, but nobody is explaining why...

I'm not a lawyer and I can already see plenty of holes in this line of thinking.

Just the massive bureaucracy alone involved with how takeout rates are raised and lowered in NY state is enough to introduce reasonable doubt on whatever stretch you're able to introduce that this was somehow criminal in nature.

If I were a betting man, I'd wager you're way wrong in your assessment.after reading this i would say those guys are big favorites to do about 5 years, but i am no legal expert either.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/91824424/NYRA-Interim-Report-Takeout

PaceAdvantage

04-30-2012, 09:15 PM

after reading this i would say those guys are big favorites to do about 5 years, but i am no legal expert either.If you're no legal expert, what are you relying on then?

What criminal law was broken? Did Hayward pocket all of this money...burlap sacks in his closet at home?

You're gonna tell me that trainers can drug horses left and right and get slaps on the wrist, but a misinterpretation (whether intentional or not) of what exactly was to be NYRA's RESPONSIBILITY regarding HOW the takeout change was to be PHYSICALLY ENACTED given the complete and total bureaucratic NIGHTMARE that is NY STATE RACING CODE amounts to a five year prison sentence?

Pardon me while I laugh out loud...

:lol:

JustRalph

04-30-2012, 09:20 PM

I think asking Crist to keep it under wraps is the real problem if you want to consider criminal liability. The fact that Crist responded in the affirmitive is also a problem. Could this be considered a conspiracy to defraud horseplayers ?

I would have to read up on the totality of circumstances, and NY laws. But i think it's a reasonable question. If this gets enough play and is ginned up enough, Crist may be drawn into a real mess. Conspiracies normally require an overt act. Who committed overt acts ? Probably those who were aware and participated in the operation of NYRA. Did those others who are mentioned in this mess commit overt acts? Crist? Is purposeful omission an overt act?

Personally i would have to say that Crist informing them that they were breaking the law is a big plus, but it also may lay to waste any defense NYRA executives have. I have yet to read the whole mess. So i am probably talking out of my ass ( as usual, right?) but in just what i have read, i am very curious as to what laws could be applied.

lamboguy

04-30-2012, 09:21 PM

If you're no legal expert, what are you relying on then?

What criminal law was broken? Did Hayward pocket all of this money...burlap sacks in his closet at home?

You're gonna tell me that trainers can drug horses left and right and get slaps on the wrist, but a misinterpretation (whether intentional or not) of what exactly was to be NYRA's RESPONSIBILITY regarding HOW the takeout change was to be PHYSICALLY ENACTED given the complete and total bureaucratic NIGHTMARE that is NY STATE RACING CODE amounts to a five year prison sentence?

Pardon me while I laugh out loud...

:lol:i thought you are a sharp guy. this is an ongoing criminal conspiracy that lasted 2 years. its like robbing a bank and giving the money to charity, you still do time. in this case they just robbed the horse players out of $8 million, and covered it up. its really simple.

PaceAdvantage

04-30-2012, 09:27 PM

i thought you are a sharp guy. this is an ongoing criminal conspiracy that lasted 2 years. its like robbing a bank and giving the money to charity, you still do time. in this case they just robbed the horse players out of $8 million, and covered it up. its really simple.A criminal conspiracy actually needs a crime.

Listing the takeout rate at 26% for the entire time it was at 26%, in the track program every day, isn't much of a conspiracy if you ask me.

That's giant hole number one that any lawyer could use to get any sort of insane criminal charges dropped.

Next.

And for the record, I never actually thought you were all that sharp, considering you like to tell us all the time on here how unsharp you are. Your words...not mine.

PaceAdvantage

04-30-2012, 09:31 PM

Jasonm921

04-30-2012, 09:45 PM

Scheming to defraud (a bit of a stretch) but could be used to hold over there head to force resignations. CUOMO was the former Attorney General..lets not forget that.

lamboguy

04-30-2012, 09:46 PM

A criminal conspiracy actually needs a crime.

Listing the takeout rate at 26% for the entire time it was at 26%, in the track program every day, isn't much of a conspiracy if you ask me.

That's giant hole number one that any lawyer could use to get any sort of insane criminal charges dropped.

Next.

And for the record, I never actually thought you were all that sharp, considering you like to tell us all the time on here how unsharp you are. Your words...not mine. i have to admit, that you might be the only one in the world that thinks that what has happened is not criminal. those guys are going to have their chance to beat this in court. this i can promise you, those guys will be indicted for stealing money, and you can bet me as much money as you feel like putting up on that one.

Charli125

04-30-2012, 09:52 PM

If you're no legal expert, what are you relying on then?

What criminal law was broken? Did Hayward pocket all of this money...burlap sacks in his closet at home?

You're gonna tell me that trainers can drug horses left and right and get slaps on the wrist, but a misinterpretation (whether intentional or not) of what exactly was to be NYRA's RESPONSIBILITY regarding HOW the takeout change was to be PHYSICALLY ENACTED given the complete and total bureaucratic NIGHTMARE that is NY STATE RACING CODE amounts to a five year prison sentence?

Pardon me while I laugh out loud...

:lol:

Mr. Hawyard knowingly broke the law, and admitted the same in his email to Mr. Crist. Mr. Crist is guilty of nothing more than selective journalism followed by blatantly lying, but Mr. Hayward is guilty of knowingly breaking the law. The law said what the maximum takeout was, Mr. Hayward knew this, yet continued to charge more than the maximum takeout by law. Now is that criminal fraud? Hardly, but it most certainly is fraud.

I find it amazing that you're actually going to stick up for NYRA here regardless of your connections.

usedtolovetvg

04-30-2012, 09:54 PM

A public relations problem? Yes.

Neither Crist nor the DRF may face charges, but this is a little bit more than a public relations problem for both Mr. Crist and the Racing Form.

Jasonm921

04-30-2012, 09:56 PM

Biggest story in ny racing and no article from bloodhorse? Im checking it on my phone and cant find a n article on their mobile site....selective journalism.

PaceAdvantage

04-30-2012, 10:06 PM

Mr. Hawyard knowingly broke the law, and admitted the same in his email to Mr. Crist. Mr. Crist is guilty of nothing more than selective journalism followed by blatantly lying, but Mr. Hayward is guilty of knowingly breaking the law. The law said what the maximum takeout was, Mr. Hayward knew this, yet continued to charge more than the maximum takeout by law. Now is that criminal fraud? Hardly, but it most certainly is fraud.

I find it amazing that you're actually going to stick up for NYRA here regardless of your connections.Oh, I doubt he KNOWINGLY broke the law. Perhaps his interpretation (or the interpretation of General Counsel Kehoe) of the law was in error, but I seriously doubt a man like him KNOWINGLY BROKE THE LAW.

More absurdity...

Tom

04-30-2012, 10:07 PM

Only a fool would think that the state of NY would not want that slot money. The only surprising thing about it was how fast they went after it.

Two entities - NY Government, and T-Bred racing.
Pour a boatload of money between them and what do you expect?

Tom

04-30-2012, 10:12 PM

I caution anyone taking anything they hear from any NYS official as fact.
You might know it, but these people are not to be trusted. EVER!

It is blatantly obvious to me this is a crooked plan by NYS to get their thieving hands on some big bucks. They have bled us taxpayers dry and need a new source to fund whatever is is people like these do.

NYRA vs NYS......no brainer.

Charli125

04-30-2012, 10:12 PM

Oh, I doubt he KNOWINGLY broke the law. Perhaps his interpretation (or the interpretation of General Counsel Kehoe) of the law was in error, but I seriously doubt a man like him KNOWINGLY BROKE THE LAW.

More absurdity...

Have you read the report? It doesn't sound like you did. When notified that the current takeout is against the law his response is, "the gentleman is correct". He knew, and decided to wait because of political reasons. He chose to break the law.

Here is his reasoning IN HIS WORDS.
"Since we are showing substantial losses in 2010 and 2011 and we have been smacked around by Cuomo (and he could check the SRWB from approving), we decided to wait."

You're defending a man who condemned himself. That, is absurd.

PaceAdvantage

04-30-2012, 10:22 PM

Have you read the report? It doesn't sound like you did. When notified that the current takeout is against the law his response is, "the gentleman is correct". He knew, and decided to wait because of political reasons. He chose to break the law.

Here is his reasoning IN HIS WORDS.
"Since we are showing substantial losses in 2010 and 2011 and we have been smacked around by Cuomo (and he could check the SRWB from approving), we decided to wait."

You're defending a man who condemned himself. That, is absurd.He didn't think he was breaking the law though, because obviously, if he did, he wouldn't have. Why do you think Kehoe is also on unpaid leave right now? Because I'm sure he advised Hayward that their interpretation of what they were doing allowed them to take this course of action.

There are actual processes involved in changing the takeout rate, no matter what the law said at the time. Just because the law says at this date, the takeout rate should be a certain amount, doesn't mean NYRA just flicks a switch and poof, there it is. I'm sure this is how they interpreted the process, because that's how the process always goes in NY. Some other entity in NY State racing politics tells NYRA to jump, and they jump. Since nobody actually came to them and told them to lower the rate, they simple didn't go out of their way to notify whomever needed to be notified that NYRA was actually going to lower the rate down to 25%.

Let's not forget, a vast NUMBER of checks and balances failed in this lowering back to 26%. That proves right there how CONVOLUTED the political and bureaucratic process is in NY regarding takeout change.

I know, I know...the law said on this date it must go from 26 to 25. And I know, I know, emails now reveal Hayward knew this to be true...it wasn't a simple oversight.

But it's just not that simple. Not when it comes to NY racing. If I teach you anything, let it be that.

drib

04-30-2012, 10:23 PM

A criminal conspiracy actually needs a crime.

Listing the takeout rate at 26% for the entire time it was at 26%, in the track program every day, isn't much of a conspiracy if you ask me.

That's giant hole number one that any lawyer could use to get any sort of insane criminal charges dropped.

Next.

And for the record, I never actually thought you were all that sharp, considering you like to tell us all the time on here how unsharp you are. Your words...not mine.

I disagree....consider this example...a retail store charges 9% sales tax when the legal rate is 8%. It prints the 9% rate on receipts and price tags, then keeps the extra money for itself. I say that is a crime, and cannot be defended by saying the incorrect, illegal, higher rate was published..

Charli125

04-30-2012, 10:28 PM

He didn't think he was breaking the law though, because obviously, if he did, he wouldn't have. Why do you think Kehoe is also on unpaid leave right now? Because I'm sure he advised Hayward that their interpretation of what they were doing allowed them to take this course of action.

There are actual processes involved in changing the takeout rate, no matter what the law said at the time. Just because the law says at this date, the takeout rate should be a certain amount, doesn't mean NYRA just flicks a switch and poof, there it is. I'm sure this is how they interpreted the process, because that's how the process always goes in NY. Some other entity in NY State racing politics tells NYRA to jump, and they jump. Since nobody actually came to them and told them to lower the rate, they simple didn't go out of their way to notify whomever needed to be notified that NYRA was actually going to lower the rate down to 25%.

Let's not forget, a vast NUMBER of checks and balances failed in this lowering back to 26%. That proves right there how CONVOLUTED the political and bureaucratic process is in NY regarding takeout change.

I know, I know...the law said on this date it must go from 26 to 25. And I know, I know, emails now reveal Hayward knew this to be true...it wasn't a simple oversight.

But it's just not that simple. Not when it comes to NY racing. If I teach you anything, let it be that.

There's nothing to be gained by debating this, but things being complicated and convoluted is no excuse. I don't buy that argument and I don't believe Mr. Hayward is so dense that he didn't understand the law even after having it explained to him by a concerned bettor.

chickenhead

04-30-2012, 10:34 PM

Have you read the report? It doesn't sound like you did. When notified that the current takeout is against the law his response is, "the gentleman is correct". He knew, and decided to wait because of political reasons. He chose to break the law.

Here is his reasoning IN HIS WORDS.
"Since we are showing substantial losses in 2010 and 2011 and we have been smacked around by Cuomo (and he could check the SRWB from approving), we decided to wait."

You're defending a man who condemned himself. That, is absurd.

The problem with all his comments is that they don't even make sense, there is something missing. In the full report he says when this all came out that they didn't reduce the rates because they had just received the loan, so politically to go 3 months later and request reduction would look bad. It's a slightly different twist than he gave Crist a year earlier, but again it voices a belief that NYRA had a choice.

What NYRA is missing, to me, is its justifications where it derived this idea that they had a choice as to whether to comply with the law or not, I'm sure that'll come out tho.. Somewhere there came in this idea they had a choice about compliance, that is what I'm curious about. It came from a lawyer somewhere.

I'm wondering what exactly their general council advised at the time. He probably advised something.

What actually is a pisser, is their interpretation of what their rights were may have been wrong, but they knew the provision quite well from day 1.

Which makes basically everything they said publicly about this at the time it came out a lie. They didn't overlook anything, they didn't "miss it", they didn't not know it existed, or whatever other stupid shit they said. They "decided". Disappointing behavior all around.

DeanT

04-30-2012, 11:43 PM

He didn't think he was breaking the law though, because obviously, if he did, he wouldn't have. Why do you think Kehoe is also on unpaid leave right now? Because I'm sure he advised Hayward that their interpretation of what they were doing allowed them to take this course of action.

There are actual processes involved in changing the takeout rate, no matter what the law said at the time. Just because the law says at this date, the takeout rate should be a certain amount, doesn't mean NYRA just flicks a switch and poof, there it is. I'm sure this is how they interpreted the process, because that's how the process always goes in NY. Some other entity in NY State racing politics tells NYRA to jump, and they jump. Since nobody actually came to them and told them to lower the rate, they simple didn't go out of their way to notify whomever needed to be notified that NYRA was actually going to lower the rate down to 25%.

Let's not forget, a vast NUMBER of checks and balances failed in this lowering back to 26%. That proves right there how CONVOLUTED the political and bureaucratic process is in NY regarding takeout change.

I know, I know...the law said on this date it must go from 26 to 25. And I know, I know, emails now reveal Hayward knew this to be true...it wasn't a simple oversight.

But it's just not that simple. Not when it comes to NY racing. If I teach you anything, let it be that.
Give the report a read.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/91824424/NYRA-Interim-Report-Takeout

They do hit the switch to lower rake.

Hayward talked about it. It wasnt complicated, it was political.

WE CAN APPEAL TO THE STATE RACING AND WAGERING BOARD ANDMAKE A CHANGE EVERY QUARTER. WHAT THE LAW DID IS IT MOVED THE TAKE OUTOF THE RANGE. SO THAT'S WHY STATUTORALLY, THEY SET A LAW THAT SUNSETTEDTHAT TOOK IT OUTSIDE THE STATUE [SIC]. IN FACT THEY HARD CODED THAT 26 IN THELAW. SO WHEN THAT WENT AWAY, AND BY THE WAY IT WAS ABOUT 3 MONTHS AFTERWE GOT THE LOAN THAT THE STATE GAVE US, WHICH BECAME EVENTUALLY GENTINGLOAN, WE DID NOT FEEL POLITICALLY WAS THE RIGHT TIME TO GO TO THE STATE AND SAY WE WANT TO REDUCE THE TAKEOUTS, BUT WE SHOULD HAVE

JustRalph

05-01-2012, 12:35 AM

Dean, thanks for that link. That report is much more damning than I thought it would be. I would say that Hayward has worked his last day at NYRA.

I don't know what to say. This violation of the law was known at the highest levels, was supported by incompetent audits that were obviously pencil whipped or in some cases bad information was provided to the auditor. There are multiple personnel who were aware and yet this continued.

It also appears that the person on track who supervised the takeout on a daily basis was either ill informed or was pencil whipping their logs of which 25% were not even signed off on.

How they can say that by publishing the wrong takeout, it insulates them from doing anything wrong, is beyond me. If anything that proves they were absolutely aware that they were breaking the law. Prima facia evidence of such.

This email exchange with Crist is absolutely damning to both parties. There is always a perception by players that they are on the outside looking in, and that there is no media that is a force for good in this game. This exchange goes a long way toward proving that point. Steve Crist may come out looking worse than Hayward. It makes me wonder what other emails from track executives are floating around in his mailbox?

I spoke earlier about a possible conspiracy. The need for overt action on Crist's part. I have no doubt that Hayward is guilty of conspiracy (whether it's criminal or administrative is up the NY Attorney General I guess) but if Steve Crist has gone to dinner with Hayward since that email, BINGO!

I guess they would have to prove they spoke about this issue, but come on ? I am not a lawyer, but we are tip toeing in shallow end of a very deep pond.

I don't know what's worse. The horses breaking down or the wholesale violation of law to avoid a political perception. If my math is right from the report above, if they had not left the rake at 26% they would not have broken even or near it?

8.5 million dollars of extra handle is some incentive I guess.

jelly

05-01-2012, 12:45 AM

According to the report, “Mr. Hayward emailed Mr. Crist on August 1, 2011, confirming that the reader was correct and requested that Mr. Crist keep the information confidential. Mr. Crist agreed.”

Crist repeated the story about the reader’s email and then told the Daily News, “I didn’t know they were overcharging at the time. I asked Charlie if NYRA was going to apply for a lower takeout rate and he said, ‘Not now.’ I didn’t know until December, like everyone else. If I did, we (the Daily Racing Form) would have put it on the front page.”

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more-sports/york-racing-association-ceo-charles-hayward-knew-nyra-over-charging-bettors-state-report-claims-article-1.1069923#ixzz1tadyCWYi

JustRalph

05-01-2012, 12:49 AM

I don't think that's going to fly:

From the Report:
NYRA Takeout-Interim Report April 26, 20122In August 2011 (almost a year after the rates had expired) the Daily Racing Form (DRF)publisher and columnist Steve Crist passed along an email from a DRF reader indicatingthe rates had expired and were outside the parameters of the Racing Law. Mr. Hayward emailed Mr. Crist on August 1, 2011 confirming that the reader was correct and requestedthat Mr. Crist keep the information confidential. Mr. Crist agreed

According to the report, “Mr. Hayward emailed Mr. Crist on August 1, 2011, confirming that the reader was correct and requested that Mr. Crist keep the information confidential. Mr. Crist agreed.”

Crist repeated the story about the reader’s email and then told the Daily News, “I didn’t know they were overcharging at the time. I asked Charlie if NYRA was going to apply for a lower takeout rate and he said, ‘Not now.’ I didn’t know until December, like everyone else. If I did, we (the Daily Racing Form) would have put it on the front page.”

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more-sports/york-racing-association-ceo-charles-hayward-knew-nyra-over-charging-bettors-state-report-claims-article-1.1069923#ixzz1tadyCWYi

PaceAdvantage

05-01-2012, 12:54 AM

Give the report a read.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/91824424/NYRA-Interim-Report-Takeout

They do hit the switch to lower rake.

Hayward talked about it. It wasnt complicated, it was political.I read the report...can you point out the section that illustrates this simple switch process? I failed to find it.

chickenhead

05-01-2012, 01:07 AM

I read the report...can you point out the section that illustrates this simple switch process? I failed to find it.

Like everyone else, I've been reading how complex it is for years...but everything I've read, and everything I've seen says it is this:

NYRA asks for takeout change.
NYSRWB rules yeah or nay.

That ain't complex. At all. If there is more to it, someone needs to say what exactly the complex part is. Politically, maybe. But as far as actually DOING it, doesn't look complex. It either gets approved or it doesn't.

What exactly is the play here, that NYSRWB would have said no, you can't comply with the law? The assumption that the NYSRWB would have rubber stamp approved a change in takeout necessitated by state law is probably fairly sound. Right?

PaceAdvantage

05-01-2012, 01:17 AM

thaskalos

05-01-2012, 01:24 AM

I think what I'm saying is, that in their minds (NYRA/Hayward), they had an excuse...they justified their actions...thus they weren't "knowingly breaking the law."

If they didn't think they were breaking the law, and they felt that their actions were "justified"...why did Hayward ask Crist to keep things quiet?

chickenhead

05-01-2012, 01:25 AM

free gratis, a sample petition:

Dear Sirs,

As of Sept 2010 the maximum takeout rate allowed under state law for Trifecta and Superfecta Wagering will be 25%. Our current takeout rates for Trifecta and Superfecta Wagering are 26%. We request to move them both to 25% in order to comply with state law.

Sincerely,
Charlie and the Boys.

Them saying no isn't exactly a response within the realm of the possible.

PaceAdvantage

05-01-2012, 01:32 AM

If they didn't think they were breaking the law, and they felt that their actions were "justified"...why did Hayward ask Crist to keep things quiet?I think it was more along the lines of a "Don't ask, don't tell" thing. I believe they thought since nobody else noticed, they weren't going to be the ones to point out what was happening.

I guess they felt that ultimate responsibility for this fell on the state...but that's just a guess.

Do you think that Hayward would think it's a good idea to put himself in this position? If you "knowingly break the law," I would have to think that you know you're running the risk of getting into serious trouble. Why would he do that?

RXB

05-01-2012, 01:33 AM

Perhaps someone in New York can explain to me why the State Racing and Wagering Board even exists, if their idea of oversight is to notice 15 months after the fact that NYRA was not in compliance.

thaskalos

05-01-2012, 01:43 AM

I think it was more along the lines of a "Don't ask, don't tell" thing. I believe they thought since nobody else noticed, they weren't going to be the ones to point out what was happening.

I guess they felt that ultimate responsibility for this fell on the state...but that's just a guess.

Do you think that Hayward would think it's a good idea to put himself in this position? If you "knowingly break the law," I would have to think that you know you're running the risk of getting into serious trouble. Why would he do that?

Well...Hayward is pretty clear, in his email to Crist, on why he wanted Crist to keep this "hush hush" for a while...and it doesn't put Hayward in a good light.

It seems that his decision was based on economic and political reasons.

Let me ask you a different question:

In your opinion...what does this do to the DRF's credibility as the "bible" of the industry?

Are cover-ups of this nature, what the most important newspaper in the industry should be engaging in?

chickenhead

05-01-2012, 01:44 AM

Perhaps someone in New York can explain to me why the State Racing and Wagering Board even exists, if their idea of oversight is to notice 15 months after the fact that NYRA was not in compliance.

technically they didnt even notice, the comptroller did. Unbounded incompetence, or some kind of super villain long play kamikazee mission to get NYRA.

PaceAdvantage

05-01-2012, 01:51 AM

Well...Hayward is pretty clear, in his email to Crist, on why he wanted Crist to keep this "hush hush" for a while...and it doesn't put Hayward in a good light.

It seems that his decision was based on economic and political reasons.

Let me ask you a different question:

In your opinion...what does this do to the DRF's credibility as the "bible" of the industry?

Are cover-ups of this nature, what the most important newspaper in the industry should be engaging in?Before I answer, let's continue to explore Hayward's motivation. People are claiming here that he "knowingly broke the law." Again, why would he do that and risk his career or worse? For sure even he didn't think NYRA would go under if the takeout were lowered 1%...so it wasn't absolutely VITAL that the takeout remain at 26% for the survival of the association.

Let's think about this for a moment.

As to your question, telling Crist "I would appreciate it if you could keep these details confidential..." and mind you, those were Hayward's exact words to Crist...

Is that not akin to someone talking to a reporter OFF THE RECORD? And don't most reporters honor such requests if they hope to get more information in the future?

JustRalph

05-01-2012, 02:01 AM

If they didn't think they were breaking the law, and they felt that their actions were "justified"...why did Hayward ask Crist to keep things quiet?

spoken like a good prosecutor in closing arguments.

Is New York "Racing law" as they refer to it, considered under the criminal code?

if it's under administrative law......then I can see why there would be no criminal charges etc. And if it is admin law and not criminal in nature, can you commit a criminal act by defrauding someone while breaking admin law? That's why they have attorney's I guess.

If it's not subject to criminal prosecution for breaking it, I can also then understand Hayward playing a little more loose with the rules. His job would be on the line, but not his ass so to speak.

thaskalos

05-01-2012, 02:05 AM

Before I answer, let's continue to explore Hayward's motivation. People are claiming here that he "knowingly broke the law." Again, why would he do that and risk his career or worse? For sure even he didn't think NYRA would go under if the takeout were lowered 1%...so it wasn't absolutely VITAL that the takeout remain at 26% for the survival of the association.

Let's think about this for a moment.

As to your question, telling Crist "I would appreciate it if you could keep these details confidential..." and mind you, those were Hayward's exact words to Crist...

Is that not akin to someone talking to a reporter OFF THE RECORD? And don't most reporters honor such requests if they hope to get more information in the future?

To be honest with you...I can't understand Hayward's position here. If you remember when this story first came out...I was the one who said that Hayward's intention was to keep the higher takeouts in effect, until the casino profits started rolling in.

I was half-kidding when I said it...because the amount of money we are talking about was not large enough to risk a person's career on.

But now that I read Hayward's email to Crist...it does seem that NYRA's financial situation at the time played a role in the decision they decided to make.

I don't share your opinion on Steven Crist.

Not only did he keep the story "off the record"...he outright LIED when the story finally came out. He flatly stated that he thought this "oversight" was unintentional.

He is even lying NOW...by saying that he believed then, and still believes now...that Hayward had no knowledge that anything intentional was taking place in the NYRA.

There is a world of difference between "keeping a story off the record"...and telling outright lies.

05-01-2012, 02:10 AM

Perhaps someone in New York can explain to me why the State Racing and Wagering Board even exists, if their idea of oversight is to notice 15 months after the fact that NYRA was not in compliance.

Exactly. There is plenty of blame to go around, including NYRA, but there is a reason it is all on NYRA now. S-L-O-T-S.

PaceAdvantage

05-01-2012, 02:49 AM

I don't share your opinion on Steven Crist.

Not only did he keep the story "off the record"...he outright LIED when the story finally came out. He flatly stated that he thought this "oversight" was unintentional.

He is even lying NOW...by saying that he believed then, and still believes now...that Hayward had no knowledge that anything intentional was taking place in the NYRA.

There is a world of difference between "keeping a story off the record"...and telling outright lies.Actually, Hayward did write "OFF THE RECORD" at the start of his email to Crist. I missed that crucial comment, but it's right there in black and white:

http://blog.timesunion.com/capitol/archives/128711/report-says-nyra-president-mislead-the-public-on-overcharges/

“Later on August 1, 2011 Hayward responded to Crist: “This gentlemen is correct. [emphasis added] Off the record, we have been working on this for some time. We originally had thought that we would announce this for Saratoga but political forces intervened. Since we are showing substantial losses in 2010 and 2011 and we have been smacked around by Cuomo (and he could check the SRWB from approving), we decided to wait. Also, the regional OTBs who collectively lost money in 2010 will scream like stuck pigs and that would provoke Skelos who is very tight with the guys who run Nassau OTB to introduce anti-NYRA legislation for the benefit of the OTBs. Finally, we are quietly working on a plan to open 10 or so restaurant/bars in the city and we did not want the politicos to block this effort. We have some internal debates on how much to lower each pool and how we would present this to our simo customers, the consumers and the politicos. I would appreciate it if you could keep these details confidential. I would also welcome a further discussion on this topic with you before the meet is over.Now, what part of this email from Hayward to Crist proves to you this oversight was INTENTIONAL? Reading this email from Hayward to Crist, one could easily come away with the impression (if one were indeed objective), that Hayward was operating from a position of ignorance. And if that were true, there is no intent.

"We have been working on this for some time."

"We originally had thought that we would announce this for Saratoga but political forces intervened."

"We have some internal debates on how much to lower each pool and how we would present this to our simo customers, the consumers and the politicos."

This doesn't sound like the words of a man who is intentionally and knowingly violating a law.

This sounds like the words of a man operating under the assumption that NYRA had some sort of CHOICE here in WHEN and HOW MUCH to lower the takeout. It sounds to me like Hayward was operating under some very bad advice of counsel.

There was a serious misinterpretation of the statute, which NYRA maintained was the problem all along when this story first broke months ago.

But I guess I'm one of the few, if only one who reads this email in that manner...

Track Phantom

05-01-2012, 03:26 AM

Track Phantom

05-01-2012, 03:38 AM

I think what I'm saying is, that in their minds (NYRA/Hayward), they had an excuse...they justified their actions...thus they weren't "knowingly breaking the law."

Like I said, there's a reason Kehoe is on leave along with Hayward. Faulty interpretation of what they can and can't do.

I can't see where this rises to the level of a criminal offense. I guess one could really make the stretch that he gained personally through pay raises based on the additional revenue, but even then...

I'm strictly referring to these comments that a criminal conspiracy took place.

I don't believe ignorace of the law is a defense. He is in a position of authority overseeing an organization that answers to facets of the government. Saying he didn't "intend" for any of this to happen won't likely matter much. His only defense could have been he had "no idea" this was happening but the e-mail clearly puts that to rest.

While I don't know what his agenda was (personal or otherwise), he clearly had an agenda and who is to know what kind of contractual incentives he has tied to revenue/margin, etc.

In my opinion, if horse racing was even on remotely stable ground, people might be willing to give these types of things the benefit of the doubt. But, when day after day, blatant larceny is happening in every nook and cranny of this industry, it's hard not to look forward to the day when corruption of any sort when it is related to horses or betting, gets punished....and preferably a punishment with teeth.

PaceAdvantage

05-01-2012, 03:43 AM

PaceAdvantage

05-01-2012, 03:44 AM

I don't believe ignorace of the law is a defense.I didn't say he was ignorant of the law. I maintain he and his team interpreted the law in a way that was incorrect.

And by doing such, this does NOT necessarily contradict what was said when this story originally broke months ago.

Again, I invite you to comment on my interpretation of the email from Hayward to Crist a few replies back.

lamboguy

05-01-2012, 07:07 AM

Canarsie

05-01-2012, 08:53 AM

Tom

05-01-2012, 08:56 AM

This story is getting major play around here - heard it on three TV channels and the radio since last night. Everyone of them has a "major" story about NYRA holding back money from winners.

Such a shame we have no journalists left at any level.
Monkey hear, monkey report, monkey happy. :rolleyes:

I am calling our local talk show today to try to remind everyone who runs our state - check your wallets and remember. Now, who do we believe? Baby Mario?

FenceBored

05-01-2012, 11:25 AM

Exactly, which is why I think he thought it was an option to request to lower rates. It makes no sense in the context in which it is portrayed.

Let me see if I've got this straight. Hayward, et al, know that the legal authorization for the 26% takeout has sunsetted. They know that if they point it out they'll be expected to lower the rate. Therefore, the fact that they didn't ask proves they thought they still had legal authorization, rather than that they were making excuses to hold onto a revenue stream when they were already losing money. Is that it?

05-01-2012, 11:33 AM

Read the emails closely. If he was trying to hide that he knew the takeout had to be dropped, rather than he could request a drop, why did he mention that Cuomo might quash the request? Does that make any sense?

You are believing everything in the context clearly biased reporters are spinning it. Myself, I prefer to read and form my own opinions. You don't think there is an agenda here?

A liberal governor is using an extremely liberal newspaper and his self appointed Racing and Wagering Board to try to discredit NYRA so he can close down racing and increase gaming. If you can't understand that, there isn't much else I can say. This is all old news spun in a new light. At the least Cuomo could have tried to find some new dirt.

05-01-2012, 11:35 AM

Charli125

05-01-2012, 11:38 AM

Do you think that Hayward would think it's a good idea to put himself in this position? If you "knowingly break the law," I would have to think that you know you're running the risk of getting into serious trouble. Why would he do that?Because he didn't think the consequences would be worse than the benefits. If it wasn't for slots, this entire thing would've been swept under the rug and would never have become a big issue. I think he did a basic risk assessment and decided the risk was worth it. The guy is not an idiot, he's very smart. He didn't get confused.

Now, what part of this email from Hayward to Crist proves to you this oversight was INTENTIONAL? Reading this email from Hayward to Crist, one could easily come away with the impression (if one were indeed objective), that Hayward was operating from a position of ignorance. And if that were true, there is no intent. No, I don't think there is any way to read that email and not get the fact that Hayward intentionally chooses to ignore the law when he specifically says, "we decided to wait". He is aware of the law, is aware that his takeout is outside of the law, and yet, intentionally decides to wait. I don't see how it could be any clearer.

Charli125

05-01-2012, 11:43 AM

Read the emails closely. If he was trying to hide that he knew the takeout had to be dropped, rather than he could request a drop, why did he mention that Cuomo might quash the request? Does that make any sense?

You are believing everything in the context clearly biased reporters are spinning it. Myself, I prefer to read and form my own opinions. You don't think there is an agenda here?

A liberal governor is using an extremely liberal newspaper and his self appointed Racing and Wagering Board to try to discredit NYRA so he can close down racing and increase gaming. If you can't understand that, there isn't much else I can say. This is all old news spun in a new light. At the least Cuomo could have tried to find some new dirt.

I've read all of the emails, and I read the full report. Sure, there is a targeted attack going on against NYRA. Two wrongs don't make a right though, and just because people are trying to discredit NYRA doesn't mean Hayward didn't knowingly break the law.

Remove the politics from the equation and look only at the facts. You can be upset at those trying to take down NYRA but I don't understand how you can defend NYRA in this case.

Tom

05-01-2012, 11:49 AM

It was a story months ago, but not so much now. It is being manufactured.

The twist here is that Bob Duffy, Lt Gov now, but Rochester Mayor then, stukbled into a trifecta at Saratoga - he was trying to bet an exacta.:rolleyes:

Anyways, he won $2600.....and NYRA SCREWED HIM!!!!! :D

I gotta upgrade to FM at work!

Robert Goren

05-01-2012, 11:52 AM

Stories like this get rehashed at Derby time, just as surely as my mail box is filled letters touting betting systems this week.

05-01-2012, 12:24 PM

I've read all of the emails, and I read the full report. Sure, there is a targeted attack going on against NYRA. Two wrongs don't make a right though, and just because people are trying to discredit NYRA doesn't mean Hayward didn't knowingly break the law.

Remove the politics from the equation and look only at the facts. You can be upset at those trying to take down NYRA but I don't understand how you can defend NYRA in this case.

How do you explain the part of the email I mentioned if that is the case? Why would he say the Cuomo would just probably shoot down the decrease anyway if he thought it was mandatory?

thaskalos

05-01-2012, 12:32 PM

It was a story months ago, but not so much now. It is being manufactured.

I have to disagree here...

It was not a real "story" months ago...because the details of it were covered up. Hayward got the benefit of the doubt...and the NYRA came off as just a "careless" organization...who didn't mind the store as closely as they should have.

It's a much bigger story now...because we finally see the key players for what they are.

We have a track operator who allegedly was told by email, on September 28, 2010, that the takeouts were in violation of state law...and what does he do?

Instead of acting on it, he refers the email to the association's general council...and nothing is done about it for 11 months.

And then, the publisher of the biggest newspaper in the game -- the so-called "horseplayer's bible" -- gets wind of the story...and alerts the track operator anew, of the possible illegalities regarding the exotics takeouts.

The two men allegedly meet over lunch...and decide to keep this matter a secret between them, until a suitable plan of restitution can be worked out.

Three more months pass...and do these two fine gentlemen finally decide to do the right thing, and see to it that this money is returned to their rightful owners?

Of course not!

It takes an independent -- and totally unrelated -- audit, to bring this matter to the public's knowledge...at which point, both the track operator and the newspaper publisher lie through their teeth...claiming that the whole thing was just an "unfortunate oversight".

Does the track operator agree to return the money to the public right away?

Of course not...why should they? They did nothing wrong; they were just a little "careless". Plus...this "unfortunate oversight" went on for so long...it is not possible to track down the money's rightfull owners anyway.

So, this is when the track operator decides to show us how "fan friendly" he is.

Not only will he reduce the takeouts to 24% effective immediately...but he will keep them there PERMANENTLY...even after this "unfortunate mistake" is rectified.

What a guy!

No...I have to disagree with your post here, CJ.

The "real" story was not months ago.

It has just come out now...

FenceBored

05-01-2012, 12:39 PM

Read the emails closely. If he was trying to hide that he knew the takeout had to be dropped, rather than he could request a drop, why did he mention that Cuomo might quash the request? Does that make any sense?

Why did he mention Cuomo? It was an excuse. Cuomo wasn't Governor back in Sept. 2010, when they should have gone to the Board knowing as they did at that time that the sunset was occuring. Oh, I forgot, then it would have been big bad Patterson who would have quashed it, right? Excuses, excuses. He figured Crist would fall for the 'Albany's out to get us' line, and he was right.

You are believing everything in the context clearly biased reporters are spinning it. Myself, I prefer to read and form my own opinions. You don't think there is an agenda here?

I believe what I believe based upon seeing this sort of thing involving companies and government agencies over the past few decades. I don't blanket believe reporting, and I most certainly don't believe whatever the guy standing there with his hand in the cookie jar is saying without a boxcar of salt.

Of course there are agendas here. Not just one, but multiple agendas from multiple directions and for multiple reasons. That's why I prefer to read and form my own opinions.

A liberal governor is using an extremely liberal newspaper and his self appointed Racing and Wagering Board to try to discredit NYRA so he can close down racing and increase gaming. If you can't understand that, there isn't much else I can say.

Um, that's a rather biased presentation, don't you think? It couldn't be that maybe some folks, who just happen to work for NYRA, knowingly did something they shouldn't have?

This is all old news spun in a new light. At the least Cuomo could have tried to find some new dirt.

Old news? WTF. So we shouldn't have investigations of malfeasance, because when the report is finished the scandal is old news? Unbelievable.

DeanT

05-01-2012, 12:39 PM

The "real" story was not months ago.

It has just come out now...

Yes.

We have two on admin leave and people like Alan who is very close to NY racing saying Charlie is likely finished at NYRA.

http://leftatthegate.blogspot.ca/2012/05/sorry-charlie.html

It's amazing that this story bumped Joe Drape's story off the news cycle. And it's Derby week to boot.

drib

05-01-2012, 12:40 PM

Interesting to note that there is not one word on the Bloodhorse website about this whole NYRA mess.....what a rag.

alydar

05-01-2012, 12:47 PM

The bottom line is that they witheld money that they should not have, probably accidentally.

Problem 1: Incompetence

Once discovered, instead of coming clean they tried to be clever.

Problem 2: Dishonesty

They way I see it, this is clear. The ones reposnsible for the mistake and the cover it up need to be held accountable, period!

I have always loved NY racing and am very biased in my opinions concerning most matters with them. But let's be honest here. This stinks, and it was wrong. Bettors all over the country were not treated properly.

Finally, what moron says "off the record" and then writes the rest in an email.

Charli125

05-01-2012, 12:53 PM

How do you explain the part of the email I mentioned if that is the case? Why would he say the Cuomo would just probably shoot down the decrease anyway if he thought it was mandatory?

The way I understand it is that they send the request saying that in order to comply with the law they need to lower takeout, and it would then be up to the government to say yes, or to amend the law. If that had happened, we would be in the same place we are now takeout and handle wise, but Cuomo would've been able to say that NYRA, despite these troubled times, was asking for lower takeout. That would have been a huge PR loss for NYRA because it would've been framed as them being irresponsible.

The CHRB had the law amended to remove the sunset clause on the Los Al takeout hike, so it's been done before.

pktruckdriver

05-01-2012, 01:06 PM

New York , you got love it, and I do love NYRA racing , but, why does this not surprise me, honestly. :bang:

Now these people are not now or ever going to jail for this, they have done worse and nothing happened, this is New York. This how they do things around here, and no one does anything about it, or goes to jail over, just hold out your wrist so you can get it slapped and then back to business, NYRA is not going any where , any time soon, does it need a little house cleaning, you know my opinion, will it happen, probally not, is the racing great, most of the time, so I've had my say, see ya in Saratoga this summer

patrick

Indulto

05-01-2012, 02:12 PM

Excellent debate with particularly interesting analyses from Charli125, Thaskalos, and Fencebored!

Who's running the show now with the top two execs on leave?

Will HANA now release some information regarding their private discussions with NYRA, or are they still "off the record" as well?

05-01-2012, 02:22 PM

Indulto

05-01-2012, 02:37 PM

The top two execs aren't on leave.Allow me to rephrase the question. With Hayward and Kehoe on non-paid administrative leave, who is now in charge? Do you happen to know?

05-01-2012, 02:46 PM

The guy listed right under Hayward in the media guide? Just a guess.

Let me ask this, why was this investigation still being conducted? We all know that at least a few other entities should have caught this error, but are any of them under investigation? My guess is no. Why is that again?

I just don't believe for one second things are as clear as they are portrayed right now. Why? Because they rarely are. I'm willing to wait to hear from the other side before a blindly accept the facts from only one, especially when I know that side has a very strong financial motive for doing this.

05-01-2012, 03:42 PM

http://www.drf.com/blogs/my-statement-nyra-takeout-issue

Charli125

05-01-2012, 04:55 PM

http://www.drf.com/blogs/my-statement-nyra-takeout-issue

Ignorance is not an excuse.

You really believe that the CEO of a major racing association didn't understand what was going on even after reading his response to Crist? You really believe that Crist didn't understand what the email he received meant? These are both men with a long history of involvement in the industry and even if they weren't aware prior to receiving that email, there is no way they could have misinterpreted the email that Crist forwarded. It specifically states that the current takeout rates are outside those mandated by the law. How is that even the smallest bit vague?

05-01-2012, 05:04 PM

Ignorance is not an excuse.

With this I agree. However, it is clear to me he didn't understand. How do you explain the "we were going to announce this at Saratoga"? Surely if he knows it is mandated, that makes no sense.

So, if you accept that he didn't understand, the question is if this is an offense for which he should be fired? Are any of the other entities that didn't catch it being fired? The entire Racing and Wagering Board? The Comptroller? Is the Governor that put them in place resigning for such gross incompetence?

Charli125

05-01-2012, 05:37 PM

I don't understand how two intelligent(at least I hope I'm intelligent!) people can read the same thing and come to such opposite conclusions. Anyway, my thoughts are below.

With this I agree. However, it is clear to me he didn't understand. How do you explain the "we were going to announce this at Saratoga"? Surely if he knows it is mandated, that makes no sense.
The way I explain his comment about announcing it at Saratoga is that he was planning on announcing it and getting good press/PR for "lowering the takeout". Since NYRA was faced with all of the political pressure due to the losses from 2010 & 2011 though, he decided that the bad press/PR he would get from the government and the OTB's would outweigh the positive press/PR he would get from the players.

So, if you accept that he didn't understand, the question is if this is an offense for which he should be fired? Are any of the other entities that didn't catch it being fired? The entire Racing and Wagering Board? The Comptroller? Is the Governor that put them in place resigning for such gross incompetence?
If we were to agree that he didn't understand, which I don't by the way, then he should be fired for incompetence. Him, and a lot of people from other entities. Anyone with direct responsibility for takeout should be held responsible. I don't think that goes as far as the Governor, but I definitely think it applies to the Racing and Wagering Board, as well as the Comptroller. For it to take 18 months to address this shows a breakdown of the entire NY racing structure.

I don't accept that he didn't understand though. It's my opinion that he did understand, took a calculated risk by not changing the takeout, and got caught. I think it's ridiculous to suggest that he did it to purposefully harm the bettors or any other group, but the facts prove to me that he knew, and decided to risk it. For that I think he should be fired, along with those responsible for monitoring his actions.

05-01-2012, 05:46 PM

I don't understand how two intelligent(at least I hope I'm intelligent!) people can read the same thing and come to such opposite conclusions. Anyway, my thoughts are below.

The way I explain his comment about announcing it at Saratoga is that he was planning on announcing it and getting good press/PR for "lowering the takeout". Since NYRA was faced with all of the political pressure due to the losses from 2010 & 2011 though, he decided that the bad press/PR he would get from the government and the OTB's would outweigh the positive press/PR he would get from the players.

If we were to agree that he didn't understand, which I don't by the way, then he should be fired for incompetence. Him, and a lot of people from other entities. Anyone with direct responsibility for takeout should be held responsible. I don't think that goes as far as the Governor, but I definitely think it applies to the Racing and Wagering Board, as well as the Comptroller. For it to take 18 months to address this shows a breakdown of the entire NY racing structure.

I don't accept that he didn't understand though. It's my opinion that he did understand, took a calculated risk by not changing the takeout, and got caught. I think it's ridiculous to suggest that he did it to purposefully harm the bettors or any other group, but the facts prove to me that he knew, and decided to risk it. For that I think he should be fired, along with those responsible for monitoring his actions.

I would say your first conclusion might be true, and it might not, just like mine. We will find out.

I can understand how people don't accept it. It is certainly possible. I just try to look deeper and figure out if doing it has an outcome worth taking the risk, and I don't see it here.

In any case, it stinks to high heaven that NYRA is taking ALL the brunt of this when in reality, they were probably third on the list of people that should have known and fixed it.

05-01-2012, 06:05 PM

elhelmete

05-01-2012, 07:19 PM

Do I have this right...the allowable range of takeout on tris topped out at 25%, but was temporarily allowed to go to 26%, but when that authorization expired it was mandatory that it be lowered back to the allowable maximum. But supposedly the proper procedure and need for immediate action for implementing the roll-back wasn't clear?

Whereas if the takeout had been within the allowable range it was completely at the discretion of NYRA to request a bump or a drop from the NYSRWB?

What doesn't make too much sense to me is that a sunset provision would be executed without very clear instructions on what exactly happens and by which party(ies) when time's up.

Grits

05-01-2012, 07:25 PM

I'm not going deep into the politics of this--I don't care to. Still, I can understand what Charlie is saying here. I can understand what Cj is saying regarding all parties involved. Certainly the governor has an agenda--its obvious. With Steven Crist's statement, it appears he is backing his long time friend, Mr.Hayward. This happens, all the time. Its nothing new.

In the business climate of the past several years now, CEOs take risks every day. Monumental ones. Anything to improve the year end statement's P/L. Doesn't matter how big the corporation is. Lehman Brothers was as big as it gets. NYRA isn't even "walk around money" by comparison.

If we can get by, moving under the radar for as long as can benefit us, we'll take our chances.

History has shown us, it doesn't take but one person to begin to notice, to raise question, to blow the whistle. In today's era, it doesn't take the discovery of but one electronic email transmission between two individuals to bring an entire operation down on the shoulders of one man (or woman.) Maybe its all a grave mistake, an innocent oversight, one that a governor is taking every opportunity to capitalize on because HE CAN. He's bigger than the CEO. So is his government.

Has any elected New York official, other than Bruno, ever cared about horseracing? Ever? We all know how his passion for the sport played out.

I feel for the employees of NYRA, the ones who work hard. The ones who do their job, and do it well. Every day. This is the worst of times for these employees.

Life is not fair. And nothing about business is fair. It never has been. The New York Times has reported that horses are commodities. Since when are people not?

Saratoga_Mike

05-01-2012, 07:26 PM

i have to admit, that you might be the only one in the world that thinks that what has happened is not criminal. those guys are going to have their chance to beat this in court. this i can promise you, those guys will be indicted for stealing money, and you can bet me as much money as you feel like putting up on that one.

You're mistaken - I tend to agree with PA.

lamboguy

05-01-2012, 07:40 PM

mike when it all comes down to it, what difference does it really make? it smells to high hell. i could care less if he is right or i am right. i care about the game, not who' s to blame and whether this is a criminal matter or civil matter.

i just hope that when this is over, the racing recover's and puts this matter far behind. it just really hurts right now, because New York racing is the best racing in the land and it is now under attack.

classhandicapper

05-01-2012, 07:55 PM

I have no idea what any of the major players in this fiasco really knew/thought and what their intentions really were. The only thing that's clear is that the whole thing smells to high heaven.

Someone mentioned that the likely outcome of this would be Aqueduct becoming a full scale casino, the NY tracks not getting any casino money, and NYRA losing control of Belmont/Saratoga.

To that I say HOORAY.

Seriously, I love horse racing and want great racing in NY.

But from a purely economic perspective, there are better uses for Aqueduct than winter racing, there is no economic justification for subsidizing a money losing operation like racing with a money making one, and even though I have no specific complaints about NYRA, it's hard for me to make a case that they have been doing a good job either.

I always say the same thing. This industry needs to be consolidated and weaned off casino money so that all the weakest players can be removed and the remaining ones can become self sustaining and profitable as the revenue shifts to them. I think NY should be one of the survivors, but I can't justify the casino money.

Lastly, I really want to like Crist, but he's been making it really difficult for me over the last year. It's not that I disagree with him on some things. If they were honest disagreements it would be no big deal. I could easily be wrong. It's that I sometimes come away thinking he's too driven by short term politics and personal self interest instead of the long term correct things to do.

JustRalph

05-01-2012, 08:09 PM

Hayward advises that he sent this to his general counsel. You cannot tell me they didnt know this was an automatic sunset. The general counsel went along with this charade. There were lesser qualified employee emails that show that they knew, and sent the info up the chain. These are sharp people who dont get into these positions without having some brains. I will not believe for a minute they didnt know what they were doing.

Whether it's criminal or not, i dont know. But no amount of tap dancing will convince me they were all unable to understand that the law required them to lower the takeout.

Btw, i want to know who the emailer to Crist was. And who else did he email etc? That could shed much more light on the context of these communications. I call on Crist to reveal his emails with this party......including his reply to the emailer after agreeing to help keep the subject under wraps. Crist, let's see them........

Charli125

05-01-2012, 08:20 PM

One other thing, anybody find it odd that the group just as responsible for this mess are the ones appointed to do the investigating? How is that not a conflict of interest?

I can see this now in relation to my Air Force days. Craig, that plane crashed because your squadron didn't discover the part was recalled. Of course, two other squadrons should have caught it as well, those installing it and those maintaining it. I tell you what, why don't you head up the investigation Craig.

Yeah, that is the ticket.

CJ, serious question here. Al has tried to explain it to me but we've never had the time for a long conversation about it in person.

I constantly hear regarding takeout that NYRA doesn't have any power. As I understand it, the Racing & Wagering Board gets final approval, but correct me if I'm wrong on that. If that's the case, then what is the purpose/mandate of NYRA? If the board makes all of the decisions then what does NYRA do?

Your analogy rings true with me. I went to the Air Force Academy(for 2 years, I didn't graduate), and I saw a lot of that type of thing in the military. It seems like the fox is guarding the hen house. I definitely agree with you that the blame should be shared, but I'm not sure how that blame should be distributed because I don't understand NY politics. I think it's safe to say that the reason everyone is blaming NYRA is because everything we've seen in the report shows that NYRA was aware of the issue and did nothing about it. If they had requested that the takeout be changed per the law, and the board had said no, then I would have no issue with NYRA.

I can only base my opinion on what I've seen though, and what I've seen is that NYRA knew, and chose to do nothing.

ezpace

05-01-2012, 08:43 PM

REGULATORS ,MANAGERS and LICE

I WONDER HOW WELL THEY REGULUATE MEDICATION FOR HORSES

LOL

alydar

05-01-2012, 09:01 PM

I am amazed that anyone believes that this was an innocent mistake. We are talking about the takeout. What is more important to a racetracks revenue than that. If it is an innocent mistake than you really have to wonder about the competence of the accountants and business managers of NYRA.

This would not happen to a public company which has to answer to shareholders.

It also calls into question all.of regulatory bodies that were supposed to be watching.

drib

05-01-2012, 09:02 PM

REGULATORS ,MANAGERS and LICE

I WONDER HOW WELL THEY REGULUATE MEDICATION FOR HORSES

LOL

Funny, but this simple posts says a lot. NYRA got caught taking a chance in disregarding the law. Their intentions were probably honorable in a sense that they thought this needed money was vital to NYRA's survival until the slots started. No way am I saying this robbery was ok, just that they meant well (society does not excuse an embezzling bookkeeper if she uses the money to donate to the Salvation Army). The further point is imagine how often stuff gets pulled "in the best interests of racing", like when a miracle trainer just stops winning and disappears, without anything being made public.

Grits

05-01-2012, 09:05 PM

We're underway. Shame government wheels don't turn this quickly when there's something GOOD at stake.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/69415/ny-inspector-general-investigating-nyra

chickenhead

05-01-2012, 09:15 PM

The takeout limits allowed by law are now 12-17% for w/p/s, 14-21% for exacta/double wager 15-25% for tri/super and P3/P4 and 15-36% for P6 with no separate rates for carryover and non-carryover pools. (Please note that the tri/super/P3/P4 takeout is currently at 26% which is currently outside the parameters of the law)

Last August 1st, a reader sent me a note saying, as I understood it, that due to the expiration of legislation, NYRA could now ask the State Racing and Wagering Board for a takeout reduction if it wanted to.

What's missing in Crists response is the same thing missing in NYRA response so far-- there is absolutely nothing about the email, or anywhere in the law, that indicates, implies, or suggests anything about "choice", or "if NYRA wanted to".

Laws aren't suggestions, they are prescriptions. If you assumed otherwise, it requires explanation, no?

The email says point blank you are not operating within the parameters of the law. Answer: "Correct".

Crist says it was his understanding that it was "if NYRA wanted to" prior to sending it, NYRA appears to say that was also their independent understanding all along -- and no one can seem to explain how that understanding makes any sense.

05-01-2012, 09:24 PM

BIG49010

05-01-2012, 09:26 PM

Just change Ontario to New York and change Lottery and Gaming to NYRA. Racing fans get the short end of the stick again, because of these idots.

In a move that will greatly affect the future of the horse racing industry in the province, the Ontario government April 24 passed a 2012 provincial budget that ends the slots-at-racetracks program operated by the Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corp in March 2013.

05-01-2012, 09:31 PM

CJ, serious question here. Al has tried to explain it to me but we've never had the time for a long conversation about it in person.

I constantly hear regarding takeout that NYRA doesn't have any power. As I understand it, the Racing & Wagering Board gets final approval, but correct me if I'm wrong on that. If that's the case, then what is the purpose/mandate of NYRA? If the board makes all of the decisions then what does NYRA do?

Your analogy rings true with me. I went to the Air Force Academy(for 2 years, I didn't graduate), and I saw a lot of that type of thing in the military. It seems like the fox is guarding the hen house. I definitely agree with you that the blame should be shared, but I'm not sure how that blame should be distributed because I don't understand NY politics. I think it's safe to say that the reason everyone is blaming NYRA is because everything we've seen in the report shows that NYRA was aware of the issue and did nothing about it. If they had requested that the takeout be changed per the law, and the board had said no, then I would have no issue with NYRA.

I can only base my opinion on what I've seen though, and what I've seen is that NYRA knew, and chose to do nothing.

I don't know that much about NYRA politics. It is very possible that NYRA knew. Maybe they didn't. Perhaps it isn't really there job to set the rates and they sad screw it, let those that should do their job, we're not doing it for them. If that is the case, they probably made a bad decision, but an understandable one.

My whole point in taking the other side is just to point out that information we are getting at this point is what those against NYRA want us to get, and not one iota more. I suspect we don't even have the tip of the iceberg yet, but a lot of people here are ready to form firm opinions and are ready for a lynching based on what has been spoon fed so far. I'd rather wait.

JustRalph

05-01-2012, 09:49 PM

I don't know that much about NYRA politics. It is very possible that NYRA knew. Maybe they didn't. Perhaps it isn't really there job to set the rates and they sad screw it, let those that should do their job, we're not doing it for them. If that is the case, they probably made a bad decision, but an understandable one.

My whole point in taking the other side is just to point out that information we are getting at this point is what those against NYRA want us to get, and not one iota more. I suspect we don't even have the tip of the iceberg yet, but a lot of people here are ready to form firm opinions and are ready for a lynching based on what has been spoon fed so far. I'd rather wait.

And what could come out now that would be considered exculpatory? I dont see how there could possibly be some loophole that would forgive the actors in this mess? There was a legal requirement, it was ignored, and a documented coverup was perpetrated to protect the actors. How that can be forgiven by any further evidence I dont know.

After thinking about my paragraph above for a few minutes, if you told me that the general counsel advised Hayworth incorrectly then i guess he would be off the hook. Maybe that's a possibility.........

PaceAdvantage

05-01-2012, 10:03 PM

Read the emails closely. If he was trying to hide that he knew the takeout had to be dropped, rather than he could request a drop, why did he mention that Cuomo might quash the request? Does that make any sense?No, it does not, and you succinctly make the point I have been trying to make for over 24 hours now...

But some people will read what they want to read. That Hayward and Crist were twirling their handlebar mustaches and rubbing their hands together...it doesn't get any dumber than this on the Internet.

PaceAdvantage

05-01-2012, 10:17 PM

I don't accept that he didn't understand though. It's my opinion that he did understand, took a calculated risk by not changing the takeout, and got caught. I think it's ridiculous to suggest that he did it to purposefully harm the bettors or any other group, but the facts prove to me that he knew, and decided to risk it. For that I think he should be fired, along with those responsible for monitoring his actions.This makes absolutely no sense. What probably happened was that General Counsel for NYRA misunderstood and conveyed to Hayward that what he planned on doing was perfectly OK. That's why Kehoe is on leave as well...how else do you explain the General Counsel also in the frying pan?

Again, I refer to my "two men twisting their handlebar mustaches" image to display the absurdity of what you are trying to present as fact.

PaceAdvantage

05-01-2012, 10:20 PM

But from a purely economic perspective, there are better uses for Aqueduct than winter racing, there is no economic justification for subsidizing a money losing operation like racing with a money making one, and even though I have no specific complaints about NYRA, it's hard for me to make a case that they have been doing a good job either. Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't it been reported that racing at Aqueduct tends to be one of NYRA's more profitable meetings?

Charli125

05-01-2012, 10:33 PM

thaskalos

05-01-2012, 10:40 PM

I am getting a little confused here...

Who are the real victims in this case?

The horseplayers, who had millions of dollars stolen from them...or the NYRA leadership, who are getting heat for not knowing how to do their job?

usedtolovetvg

05-01-2012, 10:51 PM

PaceAdvantage

05-02-2012, 12:34 AM

Assuming your hypothesis is correct, then Hayward is too dumb to be running the organization, so he should be gone. And Crist, who blindly accepted his friend's explanation, did his friend and the horse players a disservice by not investigating his buddy's flawed reasoning and set him straight. Their failure is making no attempt to get it right. Criminal, maybe not, but flawed enough to get them both discharged.My only intent during the last 24+ hours is to beat back the nonsense that THIS is what was happening during the time NYRA kept the rates at 26%:

http://outlandinstitute.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/dastardly.jpg

Whatever the ultimate fallout is from all this is beyond the scope of what my comments are trying to address.

JustRalph

05-02-2012, 02:21 AM

This makes absolutely no sense. What probably happened was that General Counsel for NYRA misunderstood and conveyed to Hayward that what he planned on doing was perfectly OK. That's why Kehoe is on leave as well...how else do you explain the General Counsel also in the frying pan?

As I stated earlier, if that comes out. If Kehoe says he advised Hayward that the decrease was not automatic/or that Hayward had to request it.......then I would agree with you. I just don't get that implication from the emails. In fact, why wouldn't Hayward offer to Crist the explanation that the General Counsel advised him on it? I still think Crist should have run to whomever and printed this thing in the next edition. Right on the front page.

Btw, anyplace in America if you misappropriate 8.5 million bucks and you are fully aware or not, you are breaking the law, you go to jail.

I am hoping that more and more favorable info comes out when it comes to NYRA, but this could easily drop into a criminal case. Damn shame really. Especially this week.

What are the odds NBC covers it during the Derby broadcast? :bang:

Indulto

05-02-2012, 05:31 AM

... Who are the real victims in this case?

The horseplayers, who had millions of dollars stolen from them...or the NYRA leadership, who are getting heat for not knowing how to do their job?The answer is neither.

The real victim here is Snidely Whiplash whose image is being unfairly diminished by those using it to try to reverse the self-inflicted tarnished images of a couple of Dudly DooWrongs. ;)

proximity

05-02-2012, 06:02 AM

between this incident, the almost every third time i log on p.a. form price increases, his promotion of the hokey drf bets and its joke of a rewards program, his failure to address the drf's stone age i.t..... it is becoming increasingly clear that mr crist is no friend of the player.

FenceBored

05-02-2012, 07:44 AM

My only intent during the last 24+ hours is to beat back the nonsense that THIS is what was happening during the time NYRA kept the rates at 26%:

http://outlandinstitute.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/dastardly.jpg

Whatever the ultimate fallout is from all this is beyond the scope of what my comments are trying to address.

Of course not, it was more like this:

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111127211957/disney/images/thumb/a/aa/Ducktales.jpg/288px-Ducktales.jpg

Here's Hayward with the top hat, and Crist in the red outfit, Kehoe in the green outfit and Ellen McClain in the blue.

Saratoga_Mike

05-02-2012, 08:49 AM

lamboguy

05-02-2012, 09:42 AM

i think it has been up, mainly because the field sizes and purse money has increased, so there is more interest in it.

Gulfstream Park had a huge meet this year with handle increases.

FenceBored

05-02-2012, 09:44 AM

How has NYRA handle trended since "Takeout-Gate" broke? I thought it was up, but I could be mistaken. Anyone?

Pari-mutuel handle at this year’s 78-day Aqueduct winter/spring meet was up across the board, the New York Racing Association reported April 26.
Read more: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/69264/nyra-reports-handle-gains-for-aqueduct-meet#ixzz1tigby3Ca

classhandicapper

05-02-2012, 09:53 AM

You know I am no fan of slots. In fact, I hate them. But if everyone else is going to have them, it is foolish for NYRA not to have them too. They almost have to or they won't be competitive.

I agree that in order to accomplish what I think is in the best interests of the industry, the weakest players would have to lose their slot revenue first so they would fail and the revenue could shift to NY.

But I don't any of these guys actually wants the industry to consolidate and become healthy and self sustaining. They want the casino revenue.

classhandicapper

05-02-2012, 09:57 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't it been reported that racing at Aqueduct tends to be one of NYRA's more profitable meetings?

Even if that is true (I have no idea), profit is not the measure of success. The appropriate measure of success is return on invested capital. There's no way they are generating a high ROIC on all that land and those facilities or nearly as high as a casino and other businesses could.

Indulto

05-02-2012, 10:39 AM

Of course not, it was more like this:

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111127211957/disney/images/thumb/a/aa/Ducktales.jpg/288px-Ducktales.jpg

Here's Hayward with the top hat, and Crist in the red outfit, Kehoe in the green outfit and Ellen McClain in the blue.The wayward Hayward as a Disney character reminds me more of Black Pete or a Beagle Boy, with Menga and Sabini as Jr. Woodchucks. Racing's Scrooge McDuck has to be Stronach. ;)

Grits

05-02-2012, 11:01 AM

Even if that is true (I have no idea), profit is not the measure of success. The appropriate measure of success is return on invested capital. There's no way they are generating a high ROIC on all that land and those facilities or nearly as high as a casino and other businesses could.

Maybe I'm thinking fairly simple here, but I don't believe any bank's commercial loan officers would necessarily agree with you, particularly after reviewing tax returns, quarterly summaries indicating operating expenses, FIXED assets--along with depreciation and other factors that go into determining annual profits (or losses), etc, etc.

The only way you're going to get into the further business of investing capital, is to show that you have the fixed assets that are unencumbered. To show that your business operation is profitable, year after year. Profit is success. If you don't have it at the most basic level, you're not likely to have investment capital--period.

Saratoga_Mike

05-02-2012, 11:20 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't it been reported that racing at Aqueduct tends to be one of NYRA's more profitable meetings?

This is absolutely correct.

Track Phantom

05-02-2012, 01:05 PM

The question I would ask is:

How quickly did they increase the takeout rate when it went up to 26% in the first place?
If they were slow, stupid, confused or misinterpreting the law in the reduction from 26 to 25, I would expect similar slowness or confusion on the rate hike. If it was immediate, then the whole idea that the law is "too convoluted" to understand is a joke....

I'm going to ask this again but slightly differently since this wasn't exactly addressed and I'm very curious as to the answer.

Does anyone feel that if the takeout rate was set to INCREASE as of a certain date, it would have been overlooked?
I know there is no way to know but I'm pretty sure it would have increased at 12:01 AM on the day it was set to increase.

05-02-2012, 01:08 PM

I'm going to ask this again but slightly differently since this wasn't exactly addressed and I'm very curious as to the answer.

Does anyone feel that if the takeout rate was set to INCREASE as of a certain date, it would have been overlooked?
I know there is no way to know but I'm pretty sure it would have increased at 12:01 AM on the day it was set to increase.

You are probably right. Let me ask you this. If that were the case, which group that missed the lowering of the takeout would have been there to make sure it was increased? The State Comptroller, the NYSRWB, or NYRA? Or all of them?

thaskalos

05-02-2012, 01:09 PM

I'm going to ask this again but slightly differently since this wasn't exactly addressed and I'm very curious as to the answer.

Does anyone feel that if the takeout rate was set to INCREASE as of a certain date, it would have been overlooked?
I know there is no way to know but I'm pretty sure it would have increased at 12:01 AM on the day it was set to increase.

I think we can all safely assume that this would clearly be the case.

Say what you will about the horse racing industry; they have been very negligent in many facets of this game.

But they have displayed remarkable consistency and effectiveness in collecting the takeout...

jelly

05-02-2012, 01:19 PM

The NTRA,jockey Club and the Steve Byk show seem to be ignoring this story ;)

elhelmete

05-02-2012, 01:19 PM

The NTRA,jockey Club and the Steve Byk show seem to be ignoring this story ;)

Steve mentioned more than once not wanting to address until next week, and I don't blame him.

Track Phantom

05-02-2012, 01:25 PM

I think we can all safely assume that this would clearly be the case.

Say what you will about the horse racing industry; they have been very negligent in many facets of this game.

But they have displayed remarkable consistency and effectiveness in collecting the takeout...

My point exactly. This is a very important distinction in this situation. I admit I'm very uninformed on how takeout rates are adjusted, who is responsible, etc. But I would ask the following questions if I were investigating:

Have takeout rates been decreased in the recent past?
If takeout rates have been decreased, who is responsible to implement the decrease and what is the process?
If takeout rates have decreased, what timeframe have they been implemented and (most importantly) is there precedent for delayed decreases?
If the answers are, YES, takeout rates have decreased recently (within the time frame that the current executive group is employed) and those decreases were handled by "X" and they were implemented in the following "X" way AND they occured on the date they were set to decrease, then why didn't the reverse take place?

foregoforever

05-02-2012, 01:26 PM

I'm going to ask this again but slightly differently since this wasn't exactly addressed and I'm very curious as to the answer.

Does anyone feel that if the takeout rate was set to INCREASE as of a certain date, it would have been overlooked?
I know there is no way to know but I'm pretty sure it would have increased at 12:01 AM on the day it was set to increase.

The answer to the first question was in the background section of the interim report released earlier this week.

The law went into effect Sep 15 2008. NYRA's request for the higher rate was put in on Aug 13 and approved by the Wagering Board on Sep 12. So yes, you're correct in your assumption.

Keep in mind, though, that there were lots of eyes on this issue back then, as the law was intended to help the NYCOTB. All those eyes were shut tight in 2010, apparently.

Track Phantom

05-02-2012, 01:28 PM

The answer to the first question was in the background section of the interim report released earlier this week.

The law went into effect Sep 15 2008. NYRA's request for the higher rate was put in on Aug 13 and approved by the Wagering Board on Sep 12. So yes, you're correct in your assumption.

Keep in mind, though, that there were lots of eyes on this issue back then, as the law was intended to help the NYCOTB. All those eyes were shut tight in 2010, apparently.

I mistyped on my original question. I meant to say DECREASED, not increased. Obviously, my point was the error is in their favor.

aaron

05-02-2012, 01:29 PM

You are probably right. Let me ask you this. If that were the case, which group that missed the lowering of the takeout would have been there to make sure it was increased? The State Comptroller, the NYSRWB, or NYRA? Or all of them?
i think all of them would have been there.
One question,we all know the Aqueduct winter meet is profitable. Saratoga is profitable.Is NYRA unprofitable because of racing at Belmont ?

elhelmete

05-02-2012, 01:33 PM

But I would ask the following questions if I were investigating:

Have takeout rates been increased in the recent past?
If takeout rates have been increased, who is responsible to implement the increase and what is the process?
If takeout rates have increased, what timeframe have they been implemented and (most importantly) is there precedent for delayed increases?
If the answers are, YES, takeout rates have increased recently (within the time frame that the current executive group is employed) and those increases were handled by "X" and they were implemented in the following "X" way AND they occured on the date they were set to increase, then why didn't the reverse take place?

I think the process works one way if the increase/decrease at hand falls within the legally proscribed range. Like as long as you're within the range, it's business as usual and any change in the rate falls 'between the sidelines' with RWB and NYRA knowing what to do.

What I'm feeling here is a failure to define execution part of the sunset provision that was attached to the hike in the trifecta takeout *outside* that range. In my experience, making things "automatic" like this is a bad idea...sounds good at the time to get people to agree to an 'emergency' hike, but the details seem to never be clarified at the time. IMHO, and in my experience with somewhat similar things, you gotta start talking about the 'sunset' a while before it happens.

Ocala Mike

05-02-2012, 03:58 PM

Here is the e-mail I sent to the Saratogian and the Albany Times-Union when this story first hit:

"I don't understand why the New York State Department of Taxation and Finance is getting a pass on this. You need to talk to someone in what passes for their Pari-Mutuel Revenue Unit in Albany and ask them why they didn't catch this error for 15 months.

Prior to 1991, Pari-Mutuel Examiners of the Tax Dept. were in place at NY State tracks and off-track betting venues to check EACH AND EVERY POOL to insure the accuracy of the reported handle, commission, breakage, and payoff to the public. They also saw to the collection of franchise fees and admissions taxes. In that year, NY State decided, AS A COST-CUTTING MEASURE, to disband the entire unit, and lay off or transfer the employees.

I know this for a fact because I was one of the examiners so affected. All you have to do is check the history of NYRA's transgressions over the last two decades to realize the State Tax Dept.'s decision to leave the henhouse unguarded was actually a very costly one. Had we been in place, say, on 9/15/10, the error would have revealed itself after the running of the very first race with "exotic" betting."

Incidentally, my ex-boss who was the only representative of the Tax Dept. remaining in place at NYRA until August, 2010 (!!!) just e-mailed me to inform me that he was recently contacted by a reporter for the Albany Times-Union about this.

classhandicapper

05-02-2012, 04:56 PM

Maybe I'm thinking fairly simple here, but I don't believe any bank's commercial loan officers would necessarily agree with you, particularly after reviewing tax returns, quarterly summaries indicating operating expenses, FIXED assets--along with depreciation and other factors that go into determining annual profits (or losses), etc, etc.

The only way you're going to get into the further business of investing capital, is to show that you have the fixed assets that are unencumbered. To show that your business operation is profitable, year after year. Profit is success. If you don't have it at the most basic level, you're not likely to have investment capital--period.

I don't think you are understanding my point.

There isn't an informed investor on the planet that doesn't consider the amount of capital he has invested in a business when determining if it is successful. I have no idea how much the land and facilities at AQU are worth so I can't use that as an example, but here's the point.

If you have 200m of invested capital in your business and you earn 5m a year, it's time to get out of that business and do something else. You are only earning 2.5% on capital despite the incremental risk and hassle of business ownership when you could get better returns with little to no risk.

I'd turn the page on anything less than 20m (10%) except in some unusual circumstances and in most cases I'd want more than that.

Grits

05-02-2012, 06:33 PM

No I understand quite well what you said, which was "profit is not success."

5 million, is nothing, one's losing their butt, by your example and anyone can realize this, myself included. Its what one would term, a miserable failure. One doesn't pull 200 million out of thin air, or walk into a bank requesting such an amount without having had success in other established business beforehand. Profit, anyway one looks at it creates success. Somewhere, one's got to prove they've got the ability to make good on this investment. It doesn't have to be 200 million. As we both know, I'm sure, this same premise applies everyday in business and in banking. It doesn't matter how large the venture, or how small.

I don't think you are understanding my point.

There isn't an informed investor on the planet that doesn't consider the amount of capital he has invested in a business when determining if it is successful. I have no idea how much the land and facilities at AQU are worth so I can't use that as an example, but here's the point.

If you have 200m of invested capital in your business and you earn 5m a year, it's time to get out of that business and do something else. You are only earning 2.5% on capital despite the incremental risk and hassle of business ownership when you could get better returns with little to no risk.

I'd turn the page on anything less than 20m (10%) except in some unusual circumstances and in most cases I'd want more than that.

Tom

05-02-2012, 09:31 PM

Class, racing is their business.
They have had those assets for decades.

It would make no sense to get out of racing because they could make more money with condos or a strip mall. The only time the capital investment would come up is if they were looking at buying new land.

For NYRA, it is not roi on capital but operating revenue.

Grits

05-02-2012, 09:40 PM

Ocala Mike

05-03-2012, 03:21 PM

I was contacted earlier today by a reporter from the Albany Times-Union named Jim Odato who is covering this story. I gave him a statement regarding the fact that the NY State Tax Department should have had personnel in place at the track to "test" the tote for the change in the commission rate on 9/15/10 from 26% to 25%.

No such "test" ever took place because the Tax Dept. disbanded the Pari-Mutuel Revenue Unit years earlier and eliminated the last employee standing in August, 2010, the month before.

Jim's story is supposed to appear in the Mon., 5/7 edition of the Albany Times-Union, so I'll have to check on-line to see what he writes.

lamboguy

05-04-2012, 05:36 PM

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/69511/nyra-fires-hayward-kehoe#ixzz1twEXwBbc

please bring back BILL NADER

05-04-2012, 06:43 PM

Hmmmm....article says "MAY have known".

betovernetcapper

05-04-2012, 07:12 PM

Yes, like George Costanza 'may have known' it was wrong for him to have sex with the cleaning woman on his desk.

05-04-2012, 07:15 PM

Yes, like George Costanza 'may have known' it was wrong for him to have sex with the cleaning woman on his desk.

He may have known, I'm just saying at this point it doesn't matter, he was toast.

usedtolovetvg

05-04-2012, 07:30 PM

Hmmmm....article says "MAY have known".

I will respectfully suggest that you have misinterpreted what was stated in the article.

DeanT

05-04-2012, 10:31 PM

Charlie response:

- (parahprasing) Mr. Hayward expressed that lower takeout rates breeds higher revenues so it makes no sense he wanted to charge more knowingly and willingly.

Thatta boy. Go get em Charlie!

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B265yMMHh7KJMmNfWmM2SzAwVHM/edit?pli=1

usedtolovetvg

05-04-2012, 10:39 PM

I don't know that anybody said he was fired because he did anything knowingly or willingly. He was fired because he was stupid and incompetent. He didn't know what he should have known. The fact that he doesn't get it more or less proves it.

Ocala Mike

05-04-2012, 11:46 PM

Incidentally, my ex-boss who was the only representative of the Tax Dept. remaining in place at NYRA until August, 2010 (!!!) just e-mailed me to inform me that he was recently contacted by a reporter for the Albany Times-Union about this.

Here's what my ex-boss just sent me:

"My phone still ringing with calls from Albany tax people and that reporter from the Times Union. He is writing an article for this Monday's edition and tells me my picture will appear. Quite a hornet's nest your note to the Times Union stirred up. It will be interesting to see what he writes. I suspect NYRA and the Racing & Wagering Board will be targeted. NYRA for failing to act when advised of their error and the Racing and Wagering Board for their inefficiency. We know our pari-mutuel crew was the eyes and ears of racing surveillance. We assured the integrity of racing in NY State and with our departure the void was not filled."

I'm looking forward to reading that article on Monday. Keep in mind that my old boss was basically "forced to retire" in August, 2010 just a month before this fiasco hit, so he might be a little "disgruntled."

jelly

05-04-2012, 11:53 PM

Aside from the current takeout fiasco.Can anyone tell me if Mr.Hayward,in the 7 to 8 yrs as head of NYRA,has he ever publicly ask the NYSRWB to lower the takeout?

PaceAdvantage

05-04-2012, 11:58 PM

I will respectfully suggest that you have misinterpreted what was stated in the article.How so? How can he misinterpret if he was quoting verbatim? :lol:

With talk swirling of state officials considering the future of its racetrack franchise, the New York Racing Association has fired president Charles Hayward following revelations he may have known the racing group was violating state law by not lowering pari-mutuel takeout rates on exotic wagers.See, "may have known."

usedtolovetvg

05-05-2012, 12:17 AM

How so? How can he misinterpret if he was quoting verbatim? :lol:

See, "may have known."

It does not say that was the reason he was fired. The reason for his firing was clearly stated in the article.

"C. Steven Duncker, the chairman of NYRA's board of directors, stated that the board's decision was based on a determination that these executives failed to perform their duties at a level required by the board,"

Those reason were determined "following revelations he may have known the racing group was violating state law by not lowering pari-mutuel takeout rates on exotic wagers." :lol: :lol: :lol:

usedtolovetvg

05-05-2012, 12:20 AM

Btw, are you and CJ like Clark Kent & Superman? You never seem to be in the room at the same time.

PaceAdvantage

05-05-2012, 12:25 AM

Btw, are you and CJ like Clark Kent & Superman? You never seem to be in the room at the same time.No, but you are quickly becoming The Joker...

lamboguy

05-05-2012, 12:27 AM

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B265yMMHh7KJMmNfWmM2SzAwVHM/edit?pli=1

PaceAdvantage

05-05-2012, 12:27 AM

It does not say that was the reason he was fired. The reason for his firing was clearly stated in the article.

"C. Steven Duncker, the chairman of NYRA's board of directors, stated that the board's decision was based on a determination that these executives failed to perform their duties at a level required by the board,"

Those reason were determined "following revelations he may have known the racing group was violating state law by not lowering pari-mutuel takeout rates on exotic wagers." :lol: :lol: :lol:What did any of this have to do with CJ's ultra-short reply where you accused him of misinterpreting?

CJ wasn't alluding to the reason they were fired. He was pointing out (again) that the use of "may have known" means all the facts aren't in...but rest assured, your opinion has been duly noted multiple times.

PaceAdvantage

05-05-2012, 12:28 AM

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B265yMMHh7KJMmNfWmM2SzAwVHM/edit?pli=1Now where have I seen this link before? I know...another thread...

This place gets popular around Derby time...gotta keep up! :p

05-05-2012, 12:28 AM

Btw, are you and CJ like Clark Kent & Superman? You never seem to be in the room at the same time.

We were both in the War Room for the Derby Chat today, you know, where we actually talk horse racing.

usedtolovetvg

05-05-2012, 12:30 AM

No, but you are quickly becoming The Joker...

But, I was right on point. Revelations came to light that he may have known, they investigated and came to the conclusion that they failed to perform their duties at a level required by the board. :D :D :D

05-05-2012, 12:34 AM

PaceAdvantage

05-05-2012, 12:34 AM

But, I was right on point. Revelations came to light that he may have known, they investigated and came to the conclusion that they failed to perform their duties at a level required by the board. :D :D :DThis has nothing to do with the meaning behind cj's post.

They were fired because they had become a political liability and it was an easy thing to do. Nothing has actually been proven one way or another as to why Hayward acted in the manner he did. His motivations are far from clear.

The email between himself and Crist displays this point with total clarity, as cj has also pointed out recently.

You talk a lot, but say very little. Your "inside man" routine is heavy on style and light on substance.

Give us some raw meat to chew on for once, will ya?

usedtolovetvg

05-05-2012, 12:36 AM

We were both in the War Room for the Derby Chat today, you know, where we actually talk horse racing.

Ok, I'll Have Another

05-05-2012, 12:40 AM

This has nothing to do with the meaning behind cj's post.

They were fired because they had become a political liability and it was an easy thing to do. Nothing has actually been proven one way or another as to why Hayward acted in the manner he did. His motivations are far from clear.

The email between himself and Crist displays this point with total clarity, as cj has also pointed out recently.

You talk a lot, but say very little. Your "inside man" routine is heavy on style and light on substance.

Give us some raw meat to chew on for once, will ya?

Who was that other guy that thought he knew everything about Tracknet, then vanished when NONE of his inside info came to fruition?

05-05-2012, 12:40 AM

Ok, I'll Have Another

Ouch...better stick to TVG, LOL.

usedtolovetvg

05-05-2012, 12:43 AM

This has nothing to do with the meaning behind cj's post.

Your "inside man" routine is heavy on style and light on substance.

Give us some raw meat to chew on for once, will ya?

Then I misunderstood. I think it's clear why he got canned. The rationale is fine for me.

I'm glad you like my style.

usedtolovetvg

05-05-2012, 12:45 AM

Ouch...better stick to TVG, LOL.

That's alright. Who do you like? I don't think your public disclosure will drive down the odds.

05-05-2012, 12:46 AM

Dullahan.

usedtolovetvg

05-05-2012, 12:50 AM

Dullahan.

He should have lots of speed to close into. The concern, of course, is the surface and breeding. Good luck.

thaskalos

05-05-2012, 01:11 AM

This has nothing to do with the meaning behind cj's post.

They were fired because they had become a political liability and it was an easy thing to do. Nothing has actually been proven one way or another as to why Hayward acted in the manner he did. His motivations are far from clear.

The email between himself and Crist displays this point with total clarity, as cj has also pointed out recently.

What about the email between the "reader" and Crist...which Crist relayed to Hayward, and to which Hayward replied that..."the gentleman is right".

You know...the email which flatly told them that, as of the expiration of the old legislation, their takeouts were "outside the parameters of the law"?

Doesn't that email prove that Hayward had at least a hint (:rolleyes: ) that the takeouts were in violation of state law?

Shouldn't he have done something more "constructive" than simply tell Crist to keep a lid on this information?

05-05-2012, 01:16 AM

What about the email between the "reader" and Crist...which Crist relayed to Hayward, and to which Hayward replied that..."the gentleman is right".

You know...the email which flatly told them that, as of the expiration of the old legislation, their takeouts were "outside the parameters of the law"?

Doesn't that email prove that Hayward had at least a hint (:rolleyes: ) that the takeouts were in violation of state law?

Shouldn't he have done something more "constructive" than simply tell Crist to keep a lid on this information?

Have you seen the full emails? Why is it so tough to wait for more information? Hayward is no dummy, and he says all the facts haven't been told. Shouldn't you at least hear his side of this?

I am extremely disappointed in the New York Racing Association’s (NYRA) Board of Directors’ action. Both the interim report and the investigation on which the report is based are flawed and admittedly incomplete. The interim report badly misinterprets documents and was prepared without interviewing me or any other individuals relevant to their investigation.

I have been fully cooperating, and will continue to fully cooperate with the NYRA Board. I look forward to the Racing and Wagering Board and the New York Inspector General completing their investigations as expeditiously as possible. I expect to be fully exonerated when all of the facts come out.

05-05-2012, 01:22 AM

I am amazed how quick people are to assume we are getting the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth from the New York government.

Since slots have been on the table, how many times have we been down this path, and how many times has it turned out the government was full of shit?

thaskalos

05-05-2012, 01:34 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by cj
Have you seen the full emails? Why is it so tough to wait for more information? Hayward is no dummy, and he says all the facts haven't been told. Shouldn't you at least hear his side of this?

I have seen the email that the "reader" sent Crist...and Crist was disingenuous in the way he described the email's content in his statement explaining his actions (on inactions).

Crist said in his statement that the email was telling him that the takeout legislation had expired, and that the NYRA could now ask the SRWB to reduce the takeouts, if it wanted to.

Everyone who has read the actual email knows for a fact that Crist is being less than honest here!

The email tells Crist that the legislation has expired...reminds him what the takeouts should now be...and informs him that the takeouts -- as they stood at that time -- were "outside the parameters of the law".

How did Crist get such a different impression of what the email was saying...when the email's content was crystal clear?

Even a child could understand what the email was saying...and Steven Crist -- a Harvard graduate -- was unable to comprehend its meaning?

We are now supposed to believe that neither Crist nor Hayward suspected that the takeouts were in violation of the law?

usedtolovetvg

05-05-2012, 01:38 AM

Have you seen the full emails? Why is it so tough to wait for more information? Hayward is no dummy, and he says all the facts haven't been told. Shouldn't you at least hear his side of this?

I think it is obvious what he was thinking. And, it never ceases to amaze me how stupid these people who are making so much money are. With all due respect, I think he is a dummy. When the takeout raise sunsetted, Hayward thought he would have to request a takeout reduction rather than it having to take place immediately. He was wrong about his assumption and he probably got bad advice from Kehoe. He may have been unsure about this and that was the reason for his confidentiality request to Crist. That to me is sheer stupidity and incompetence. Knowing how dumb some of these execs are I will give him the benefit of not having done this intentionally. That, seems to me, was the reason for his dismissal, ignorance not wanton abuse of his authority. But, that is still no excuse or justification.

thaskalos

05-05-2012, 01:51 AM

Have you seen the full emails? Why is it so tough to wait for more information? Hayward is no dummy, and he says all the facts haven't been told. Shouldn't you at least hear his side of this?

If there is one thing we know for a fact in this game...it's that, in cases of controversy, all the facts are NEVER told to the betting public.

I doubt that this case will be any different...

classhandicapper

05-05-2012, 02:21 AM

This is what I meant by FIXED ASSETS. Land, buildings, bricks, mortar, etc. When you own it--you've got much greater room for profit and for leverage, particularly when said property is debt clear and you are in possession of the deed. ;)

In this case, NYRA no longers owns the properties, but still in business, you get my drift.

I hear you, but it doesn't change the basic premise of my point.

I am talking about whether Aqueduct should be a casino, race track, or something else. Just because AQU is supposedly profitable does not mean you wouldn't be better off using the land and facilities for something else that could/would generate a much higher return on those same assets.

It's clear NYRA wouldn't want to do that because it's not actually the money (capital) of the people at NYRA earning a shit return and they want to keep the track and their jobs

But if the casino people make the case that they could earn a much higher return on the same assets (and they almost certainly could), then the state would be foolish to keep it as a track because it's probably not even earning enough to justify its existence now.

classhandicapper

05-05-2012, 02:36 AM

I suspect that track/state/OTB politics have been so ridiculously corrupt for so long that even though a lot of people more or less understood that the take was outside the parameters of the law it didn't strike anyone as something that had to be handled immediately because they do a million things worse than that every day in Albany.

PaceAdvantage

05-05-2012, 02:38 AM

What about the email between the "reader" and Crist...which Crist relayed to Hayward, and to which Hayward replied that..."the gentleman is right".

You know...the email which flatly told them that, as of the expiration of the old legislation, their takeouts were "outside the parameters of the law"?

Doesn't that email prove that Hayward had at least a hint (:rolleyes: ) that the takeouts were in violation of state law?

Shouldn't he have done something more "constructive" than simply tell Crist to keep a lid on this information?So then, what you're saying is, Hayward is an idiot who thought he could "break the law" and nobody would notice? Especially given that he is the CEO of NYRA, an organization that was under more scrutiny than ever (it was only a few short months prior to takeout-gate that the state was chastising NYRA for not disclosing salaries, etc.)

I guess he was just another in a long line of big-Ego CEOs who thought nobody would notice (and I guess he would have been right there...for 15 months, nobody else noticed).

thaskalos

05-05-2012, 02:57 AM

So then, what you're saying is, Hayward is an idiot who thought he could "break the law" and nobody would notice? Especially given that he is the CEO of NYRA, an organization that was under more scrutiny than ever (it was only a few short months prior to takeout-gate that the state was chastising NYRA for not disclosing salaries, etc.)

I guess he was just another in a long line of big-Ego CEOs who thought nobody would notice (and I guess he would have been right there...for 15 months, nobody else noticed).
No...I would never call him an "idiot", because that would be "speculating" on my part...and I would rather deal in facts.

Let's just say that his actions in this case don't peg him as a "genius"...

Robert Fischer

05-05-2012, 06:51 AM

If these CEO's were worth their salaries, ESPN would have the Derby on it's home page. Not even a side headline...

racing on tv with an ADW and partnership with major sponsors seems like an unrealistic dream when we can't even control the press (espn, ny times..) (see title)

Canarsie

05-05-2012, 08:16 AM

I'm not going to debate the legal issues here NYS law can be cumbersome to interpret. But I seriously doubt this is ever going to trial.

What will probably play out is that Hayward and Kehoe resign and possibly NYRA makes some additional concessions to the state. If it would go to trial lets say it would probably get ugly on both sides. Since it is well known that Cuomo has presidential aspirations this is the last thing he wants.

Remember if it does go to a jury and he's found innocent the state gains nothing and that's not their game plan.

Also does some player who got beat out of the extra takeout find a lawyer trying to make a name for him or herself. Does the lawyer sue NYRA, Christ, DRF, or all of them?

What did any of this have to do with CJ's ultra-short reply where you accused him of misinterpreting?

CJ wasn't alluding to the reason they were fired. He was pointing out (again) that the use of "may have known" means all the facts aren't in...but rest assured, your opinion has been duly noted multiple times.

This has nothing to do with the meaning behind cj's post.

They were fired because they had become a political liability and it was an easy thing to do. Nothing has actually been proven one way or another as to why Hayward acted in the manner he did. His motivations are far from clear.

The email between himself and Crist displays this point with total clarity, as cj has also pointed out recently.

You talk a lot, but say very little. Your "inside man" routine is heavy on style and light on substance.

Give us some raw meat to chew on for once, will ya?

Have you seen the full emails? Why is it so tough to wait for more information? Hayward is no dummy, and he says all the facts haven't been told. Shouldn't you at least hear his side of this?

First off I'm not proud that I stated what would happen the only reason they said "fired" because it was far better for PR. I'm sure they offered to resign as this headline refused to die. Nowhere have I seen that indictments might be coming down the road that would be ludicrous to me.

Like CJ said all the facts aren't in I'm withholding judgement till then. It is quite apparent that both knew but there might be other facts that come out. I'm not a guy who likes when a crime is committed and makes the front page then a retraction on page 79.

I'm sure there will be some up and coming lawyer who will take the case pro bono to make a name for him or herself. Then quite possibly all the facts will be presented.

I really find it appalling that Hayward would be called an idiot. One doesn't rise to the top of the executive ladder being incompetent. Is this the best some people can do? Its become "vogue" for certain members here just to knock and almost never say anything positive. Give me a "freaking" break!!! This isn't intended for people who take their time and write a "persuasive" argument against like thaskalos and others whose posts I find great reads. Its the one or two sentence ones that really bothers me because the "thought" process just isn't there.

Did he make a serious error in judgement? Of course and it cost him his job and might block future opportunities.

Just be careful what you wish for maybe there is a deal in place where a Cuomo person becomes the head of NYRA. Wouldn't that just be lovely? What happens if he or she if appointed decides to become a quarter hog? Who is going to stand up against such a self destructing proposal?

Off my soapbox.

JustRalph

05-05-2012, 08:44 AM

I'm sure there will be some up and coming lawyer who will take the case pro bono to make a name for him or herself. Then quite possibly all the facts will be presented.

This is a joke right?

usedtolovetvg

05-05-2012, 09:18 AM

I really find it appalling that Hayward would be called an idiot. One doesn't rise to the top of the executive ladder being incompetent.

I will strongly disagree with you. There are a lot more things involved in climbing the executive ladder than being smart. That senior executive at TVG that you wondered why he still had a job after all these years, I think calling him an idiot would be a compliment. I think we've all had bosses that we've known were not that bright and often wondered how they got there. Also, not being an idiot doesn't necessarily make you competent. I have known some very smart people who were not very competent at their jobs because they had a different agenda, themselves. I think once all the facts come out and I don't believe it is really that complicated, the term idiot, for both Hayward and Kehoe, will be quite apropos.

Canarsie

05-05-2012, 10:55 AM

This is a joke right?

Nope why would it be. Lawyers take cases all the time for fame and glory.

I despise talking politics or current events here but do you really think Zimmerman or someone similar with no notoriety has the cash to defend himself even with contributions. CASE CLOSED

Canarsie

05-05-2012, 11:04 AM

I will strongly disagree with you. There are a lot more things involved in climbing the executive ladder than being smart. That senior executive at TVG that you wondered why he still had a job after all these years, I think calling him an idiot would be a compliment. I think we've all had bosses that we've known were not that bright and often wondered how they got there. Also, not being an idiot doesn't necessarily make you competent. I have known some very smart people who were not very competent at their jobs because they had a different agenda, themselves. I think once all the facts come out and I don't believe it is really that complicated, the term idiot, for both Hayward and Kehoe, will be quite apropos.

As you state I often wonder how he has kept his job but NEVER have I called him stupid. A person who can survive numerous regimes without ever turning a profit is anything but.

If anything he is a stinking genius with an incredible line of BS to stay on that long. It doesn't change my opinion of him but the truth is he has always survived.

How the hell do you when all the facts come out they won't vindicate them though I highly doubt it. You have violated every basic freedom that so many in this great country of ours have died defending.

Lets for arguments sake say there is no civil or criminal trial. Do you really think more facts will come out? This was probably the Governor saying get rid of those two or there will be more drastic action coming.

usedtolovetvg

05-05-2012, 11:21 AM

As you state I often wonder how he has kept his job but NEVER have I called him stupid. A person who can survive numerous regimes without ever turning a profit is anything but.

If anything he is a stinking genius with an incredible line of BS to stay on that long. It doesn't change my opinion of him but the truth is he has always survived.

One of my points was that they weren't necessarily competent. You yourself have questioned his competency given the fact the company hasn't made money in over a decade. I think there are certain factors that keep incompetent people in their jobs besides intelligence.

Lets for arguments sake say there is no civil or criminal trial. Do you really think more facts will come out? This was probably the Governor saying get rid of those two or there will be more drastic action coming.

I don't think what went wrong was really that complicated. My rationale is on another thread, very simple really. I doubt there will be criminal charges or a trial. My conclusion was it was arrogance and, yes, stupidity. Crist's mistake was blindly accepting his friend's take on the situation. People, me included, tend to believe, and probably hope, there is something more nefarious going on. Still, there is no doubt in my mind that both Hayward and Kehoe made a colossal error in judgement. And, from my POV, that makes him pretty dumb.

Canarsie

05-05-2012, 12:00 PM

One of my points was that they weren't necessarily competent. You yourself have questioned his competency given the fact the company hasn't made money in over a decade. I think there are certain factors that keep incompetent people in their jobs besides intelligence.

I don't think what went wrong was really that complicated. My rationale is on another thread, very simple really. I doubt there will be criminal charges or a trial. My conclusion was it was arrogance and, yes, stupidity. Crist's mistake was blindly accepting his friend's take on the situation. People, me included, tend to believe, and probably hope, there is something more nefarious going on. Still, there is no doubt in my mind that both Hayward and Kehoe made a colossal error in judgement. And, from my POV, that makes him pretty dumb.

Your being very evasive to your "stupid" quote. Yes I have questioned his "competence" there is no denying that. But there is no way I think he's "stupid".

Did they make an error in judgement? Of course they did I might even be persuaded that it was possibly "colossal". But if that makes the pair "dumb" if would also pertain to every president we had since Washington and I seriously doubt that's the case. From the beginning of time every person has made errors because their human.

If you add up all my errors in life my IQ would be in the minus range. Though others might disagree I don't consider myself "stupid".

usedtolovetvg

05-05-2012, 12:22 PM

mountainman

05-05-2012, 12:26 PM

I have seen the email that the "reader" sent Crist...and Crist was disingenuous in the way he described the email's content in his statement explaining his actions (on inactions).

Crist said in his statement that the email was telling him that the takeout legislation had expired, and that the NYRA could now ask the SRWB to reduce the takeouts, if it wanted to.

Everyone who has read the actual email knows for a fact that Crist is being less than honest here!

The email tells Crist that the legislation has expired...reminds him what the takeouts should now be...and informs him that the takeouts -- as they stood at that time -- were "outside the parameters of the law".

How did Crist get such a different impression of what the email was saying...when the email's content was crystal clear?

Even a child could understand what the email was saying...and Steven Crist -- a Harvard graduate -- was unable to comprehend its meaning?

We are now supposed to believe that neither Crist nor Hayward suspected that the takeouts were in violation of the law?

True, all the info may not be in, but the evidence we do have- mainly, that particular exchange of emails- seems pretty damning to both parties. To speculate that further disclosures MAY alleviate blame placed on Hayward and undo the hit on Crist's good name seems a tiny bit beside the point at this stage.

By the way, Matt Hegarty wrote a tight -and painstakingly worded piece- on Hayward's firing. As the story no doubt continues to develop, I wonder if he'll be given free rein and allowed to run with it. I found interesting the complete ommision of Crist's name from the article.

05-05-2012, 12:31 PM

We are now supposed to believe that neither Crist nor Hayward suspected that the takeouts were in violation of the law?

I'll try again. Shouldn't you at least hear Hayward's side? Apparently, that is too much to ask, since you never answered.

05-05-2012, 12:33 PM

No...I would never call him an "idiot", because that would be "speculating" on my part...and I would rather deal in about 8% facts.

Fixed that up for ya buddy.

thaskalos

05-05-2012, 12:39 PM

I'll try again. Shouldn't you at least hear Hayward's side? Apparently, that is too much to ask, since you never answered.

IMO...the only "new" thing likely to come out of Hayward's side of the argument, will be the possible implication of others...and that will hardly "exonerate" him from his own role in this mess.

Of course...that's if we ever get to hear his side...

05-05-2012, 12:48 PM

IMO...the only "new" thing likely to come out of Hayward's side of the argument, will be the possible implication of others...and that will hardly "exonerate" him from his own role in this mess.

Of course...that's if we ever get to hear his side...

So you'd rather blast him and speculate than wait...ok.

Still, the politicians of New York have a terrible track record when it comes to these reports about NYRA. They always seem so juicy at first, but they always fall apart later.

mountainman

05-05-2012, 01:27 PM

So then, what you're saying is, Hayward is an idiot who thought he could "break the law" and nobody would notice? Especially given that he is the CEO of NYRA, an organization that was under more scrutiny than ever (it was only a few short months prior to takeout-gate that the state was chastising NYRA for not disclosing salaries, etc.)

I guess he was just another in a long line of big-Ego CEOs who thought nobody would notice (and I guess he would have been right there...for 15 months, nobody else noticed).

Who did the derby analysis on the front page, sir? Was it you? It smoothly melds fact and bold opinion, not the simplest of styles to pull off. The result is informative and readable.

thaskalos

05-05-2012, 01:33 PM

Who did the derby analysis on the front page, sir? Was it you? It smoothly melds fact and bold opinion, not the simplest of styles to pull off. The result is informative and readable.
Smoooooth... :)

mountainman

05-05-2012, 01:40 PM

Smoooooth... :)

I'm a great judge of fellow analysts. I can tell in 2 seconds if they've got any game.

thaskalos

05-05-2012, 02:53 PM

So you'd rather blast him and speculate than wait...ok.

Still, the politicians of New York have a terrible track record when it comes to these reports about NYRA. They always seem so juicy at first, but they always fall apart later.
I am not looking at the NY politicians, CJ...

I am looking at the NYRA board...who dropped Hayward like a hot potato.

Why weren't THEY interested in listening to his side of things?

Could it be that NYRA is trying to distance itself as much as it can from him?

Why fire a man instantly, if his guilt is in doubt?

Do you actually believe Hayward when he says he will be exonerated?

What did you expect him to say?

FenceBored

05-05-2012, 02:59 PM

So you'd rather blast him and speculate than wait...ok.

Still, the politicians of New York have a terrible track record when it comes to these reports about NYRA. They always seem so juicy at first, but they always fall apart later.

Wait? And have someone come back with the "old news" defense again if the wait doesn't turn up anything more exculpatory than we've seen so far?

I'm getting a headache from the mental gymnastics defending NYRA executives ...

NYRA didn't know that the law authorizing the 26% takeout had sunsetted in Sept. 2010 because of a devil mind trick from the Cuomo administration (that hadn't come into office yet).
NYRA didn't ask to reduce takeout because asking was a trap laid by the Cuomo cabal.
NYRA wasn't informed that they needed to lower the takeout by state regulators because NYRA not lowering the take was a trap laid by the Cuomo cabal.
NYRA did know that the law had sunsetted, but didn't think that changed the legal framework in which their takeout was judged legal because if the Cuomo intimadated legislature had wanted the framework to change they would have had the framework changed by legislation like inserting a provision that sunsetted the 2008 provisions.
You know what I think? I think I'll have another julep. Then I'll tackle the NYRA board filled with Cuomo flunkies angle with yet another one.
Several of NYRA’s board members have close ties to Cuomo, including the association’s vice chairman, Michael Del Guidice, who is a former chief of staff for Cuomo’s father, former New York Gov. Mario Cuomo. In addition, the board member Leonard Riggio, the chairman of Barnes and Noble, is a major fundraiser for Cuomo.
-- http://www.drf.com/news/nyra-fires-hayward-and-kehoe-after-report-takeout-mishap

FenceBored

05-05-2012, 03:01 PM

What did you expect him to say?

"Are you going to believe me, or your own lying eyes?"

Canarsie

05-05-2012, 03:27 PM

I was just responding to one of your statements, "One doesn't rise to the top of the executive ladder being incompetent." I disagreed. I pointed out our friend at TVG only as an example. I think there are many. I also believe, as you do, there are many people who are pretty smart who do dumb things once in a while and dumb people who continually do dumb things all the time. Right or wrong, I judge people by the magnitude of their mistake(s) and the way they deal with it (them). I give Hayward a colossal failure on all counts. By my reckoning, that makes him pretty dumb. I do accept other people's perspective.

I'm just wondering what you think of Nixon considering practically the whole country has forgiven him over time including me. To the best of my knowledge I don't recall anyone ever calling him "dumb".

I accept other peoples perspective all the time wouldn't have it any other way. I just think there is more to this story. Maybe I am dead wrong won't be the last time.

Also what do you think of Crist? Inquiring minds (mine at least) want to know.

05-05-2012, 03:33 PM

I am not looking at the NY politicians, CJ...

I am looking at the NYRA board...who dropped Hayward like a hot potato.

Why weren't THEY interested in listening to his side of things?

Could it be that NYRA is trying to distance itself as much as it can from him?

Why fire a man instantly, if his guilt is in doubt?

Do you actually believe Hayward when he says he will be exonerated?

What did you expect him to say?
I don't know what to believe, but I'm willing to wait. As far as his firing goes, if you think it wasn't mostly about PR, you are pretty naive about the situation.

Canarsie

05-05-2012, 03:35 PM

I am not looking at the NY politicians, CJ...

I am looking at the NYRA board...who dropped Hayward like a hot potato.

Why weren't THEY interested in listening to his side of things?

Its NY a state that does things differently. Just like the parish of Louisiana

Could it be that NYRA is trying to distance itself as much as it can from him?

Agree 100%

Why fire a man instantly, if his guilt is in doubt?

To stop the momentum a story gathers. Have we heard anything about his severance pay or he violated the terms of his contract yet?

Do you actually believe Hayward when he says he will be exonerated?

Actually at this point NO but he deserves the chance to prove his innocence just like everyone else does in this great country of ours.

What did you expect him to say?

Can't dispute the last statement at all.

PaceAdvantage

05-05-2012, 03:37 PM

Who did the derby analysis on the front page, sir? Was it you? It smoothly melds fact and bold opinion, not the simplest of styles to pull off. The result is informative and readable.Yes, it was me...and admittedly, not my best work, as I did it in the wee hours of the morning...

Well, I take that back...I guess we'll know in a few hours if it is some of my best work... :lol:

05-05-2012, 03:37 PM

Wait? And blah blah blah
As I said, the politicians in NY have an AWFUL track record when it comes to NYRA, so you will have to excuse me if I don't trust one thing they say or do, especially with billions of dollars at stake.

Tom

05-05-2012, 03:50 PM

Good rule of thumb - NEVER believe a thing a NY pol tells you.
They LIE!

Bottom line - Baby Mario has morning wood every time he thinks about the slots money - and he wants every dollar of it. He is planning an assault on NYRA and will lie about everything to bring them down. Take this to the bank - Baby Mario doesn't give a crap about the safety of any horses.

usedtolovetvg

05-05-2012, 04:22 PM

I'm just wondering what you think of Nixon considering practically the whole country has forgiven him over time including me. To the best of my knowledge I don't recall anyone ever calling him "dumb".

I accept other peoples perspective all the time wouldn't have it any other way. I just think there is more to this story. Maybe I am dead wrong won't be the last time.

Also what do you think of Crist? Inquiring minds (mine at least) want to know.

Since I am a product of the 60s, I have never been a fan of any politician. Nixon let his arrogance and ego get in the way but he knew exactly what he was doing. Probably not the proper forum for this kind of discussion. As far as I'm concerned, the best thing I can say about Nixon is that I understand why he did what he did. Don't think I would have ever wanted to socialize with him, nor him me. I have made my feelings about Crist known, if not on this thread then another. He took what his friend told him at face value, that was Hayward believed that it was up to Hayward to decide when and whether he would request a takeout decrease. I do not believe Hayward thought that lowering the takeout was mandated by law, probably on the advice of Kehoe. That is what makes me think Hayward is dumb, btw. My belief is that all Hayward wanted from Crist was Crist not disclosing that lowering the takeout was possible but Hayward had decided not to do it. Crist did everyone, including his friend a disservice by not looking into what Hayward told him. Again, this does not imply that Crist did anything illegal. He just didn't do what he should have done as a journalist and, ultimately in hindsight, as a friend. Hope this makes sense and not too repetitious.

affirmedny

05-05-2012, 04:22 PM

True, all the info may not be in, but the evidence we do have- mainly, that particular exchange of emails- seems pretty damning to both parties. To speculate that further disclosures MAY alleviate blame placed on Hayward and undo the hit on Crist's good name seems a tiny bit beside the point at this stage.

By the way, Matt Hegarty wrote a tight -and painstakingly worded piece- on Hayward's firing. As the story no doubt continues to develop, I wonder if he'll be given free rein and allowed to run with it. I found interesting the complete ommision of Crist's name from the article.

my favorite part of the Hegarty article is the quote from the board member who didn't know Hayward was fired. I guess it wasn't unanimous.

foregoforever

05-05-2012, 04:31 PM

my favorite part of the Hegarty article is the quote from the board member who didn't know Hayward was fired. I guess it wasn't unanimous.

It was reported elsewhere that the firing decision was made by the Executive Board, not the full board. The quoted board member must not be an "executive".

PaceAdvantage

05-05-2012, 04:41 PM

Since I am a product of the 60s, I have never been a fan of any politician. Nixon let his arrogance and ego get in the way but he knew exactly what he was doing. Probably not the proper forum for this kind of discussion. As far as I'm concerned, the best thing I can say about Nixon is that I understand why he did what he did. Don't think I would have ever wanted to socialize with him, nor him me. I have made my feelings about Crist known, if not on this thread then another. He took what his friend told him at face value, that was Hayward believed that it was up to Hayward to decide when and whether he would request a takeout decrease. I do not believe Hayward thought that lowering the takeout was mandated by law, probably on the advice of Kehoe. That is what makes me think Hayward is dumb, btw. My belief is that all Hayward wanted from Crist was Crist not disclosing that lowering the takeout was possible but Hayward had decided not to do it. Crist did everyone, including his friend a disservice by not looking into what Hayward told him. Again, this does not imply that Crist did anything illegal. He just didn't do what he should have done as a journalist and, ultimately in hindsight, as a friend. Hope this makes sense and not too repetitious.Actually, as a friend, he did exactly what he should have done. If I were friends with someone and I told them something off the record, it wouldn't be much of a friendship if that person then went and wrote a story about it...

usedtolovetvg

05-05-2012, 04:49 PM

Actually, as a friend, he did exactly what he should have done. If I were friends with someone and I told them something off the record, it wouldn't be much of a friendship if that person then went and wrote a story about it...

As a journalist, I would have investigated to make sure that my friend wasn't doing something that I should be reporting on. Once I found out my friend was doing something that could be perceived as illegal, I would have told him he has two weeks to straighten this mess out or I would have to report it. I applaud your loyalty but I would not jeopardize my career and the rest of my life protecting a friend who was potentially doing something illegal.

thaskalos

05-05-2012, 05:02 PM

foregoforever

05-05-2012, 05:44 PM

There's an assumption being made in the Wagering Board's analysis of Crist's email exchange, and it's being given a free pass by many people. Let's review that email exchange:

“The 2008 NYCOTB takeout increase legislation included a sunset provision that went into effect on September 15, 2010. (Article 2 Section 238 of the Racing, Pari-Mutuel and Breeding Law)The takeout limits allowed by law are now 12-17% for w/p/s, 14-21% for exacta/double wager15-25% for tri/super and P3/P4 and 15-36% for P6 with no separate rates for carryover and non-carryover pools. (Please note that the tri/super/P3/P4 takeout is currently at 26% which is currently outside the parameters of the law)

NYRA may be waiting for the VTL money before they lower any takeouts, but if NYRA wanted to lower takeout all they have to do is make to request to NYSRWB, which would most likely to approve the request.”

Later on August 1, 2011 Hayward responded to Crist:

“This gentlemen is correct. ...

The emphasis, in bold, was added by the Wagering Board, implying that Hayward's "correct" response was to the bit about "outside the law".

The problem is that following paragraph in the original email stating that NYRA could request a takeout decrease and the Wagering Board would likely approve. Hayward could have been saying that THAT is correct. The rest of his response, which is the "off the record" part, goes into why NYRA hasn't made that very request, which would tend to support this interpretation.

It seems pretty clear that NYRA did not feel bound to put in a reduction request at the time of the sunset. In fact, elsewhere in the Interim Report it states that, when first confronted with the audit results in early December, NYRA indicated that they were operating within the law. It was only after a second meeting with the RWB that NYRA changed its tune.

So I don't buy the notion that the Crist email exchange constituted an admission by Hayward that NYRA was breaking the law. In other words, I can't unequivocally match up the bolded lines the way the RWB did.

It seems obvious to me that NYRA was outside the law, but I suspect that they had somehow rationalized this. Much of their internal communication, as well as on-topic communications with Getnick, are being withheld by NYRA on the basis of attorney-client privilege. Those communications are the key to figuring this whole thing out. Perhaps they got some poor legal advice. Let's hope all this comes out eventually.

I certainly am not defending either Hayward or Crist. There was a lot of stupidity here. And Hayward's "off the record" request was for the details of why they hadn't requested the decrease. It was not a request for Crist to ignore the original question about the sunset provision, and Hayward would have had no business asking for that to be swept under the rug. Crist dropped the ball.

So I'm with cj a bit on wanting some more information, but I'm not sure that anything will rehabilitate NYRA's reputation at this point.

05-05-2012, 05:47 PM

This is true...

He proved to be a good friend...but a mediocre journalist...

What good journalist prints something that he is told "off the record"?

05-05-2012, 05:50 PM

So I'm with cj a bit on wanting some more information, but I'm not sure that anything will rehabilitate NYRA's reputation at this point.

This is what I have said from the beginning. Show the entire e-mail string, not selected items from selected e-mails. Anyway, almost time for the Derby, this has been beaten to death. I'll check back in a month.

05-05-2012, 06:35 PM

Ok, I'll Have Another

Hey, nice call!

thaskalos

05-05-2012, 08:15 PM

What good journalist prints something that he is told "off the record"?
Cj...

Like you, I also have lost the desire to keep on talking about this issue.

But I must add one more thought before I move on to more worthwhile things:

If ever an industry needed a "watchdog"...it's the horse racing industry.

We have only a couple of "real" journalists left in this game, and if they start leaving things "off the record"...then all is lost.

And if we, the horseplayers, can't see that...then we deserve everything we get...

usedtolovetvg

05-05-2012, 10:12 PM

Hey, nice call!

Tx. Perfect trip.

usedtolovetvg

05-05-2012, 10:40 PM

Cj...

Like you, I also have lost the desire to keep on talking about this issue.

But I must add one more thought before I move on to more worthwhile things:

If ever an industry needed a "watchdog"...it's the horse racing industry.

We have only a couple of "real" journalists left in this game, and if they start leaving things "off the record"...then all is lost.

And if we, the horseplayers, can't see that...then we deserve everything we get...

I'll do it.

FenceBored

05-06-2012, 08:20 AM

As I said, the politicians in NY have an AWFUL track record when it comes to NYRA, so you will have to excuse me if I don't trust one thing they say or do, especially with billions of dollars at stake.

If NYRA had wanted to ditch the extra takeout they would have enlisted Crist and the rest of the press to that end instead of pulling them under the Cone of Silence.

Bottom line: Hayward had knowledge, he had the opportunity to at least attempt to do the right thing, and he didn't. WTF can he say that excuses that?

Just because you have political enemies doesn't absolve you from the responsibility to act responsibly.

Tom

05-06-2012, 11:22 AM

05-06-2012, 11:30 AM

FenceBored

05-06-2012, 11:51 AM

FenceBored

05-06-2012, 11:52 AM

Glad to see at least a few people get what is really going on.

Yes we do, but it's a hard slog getting others to be sensible about it.

JustRalph

05-06-2012, 12:03 PM

Glad to see at least a few people get what is really going on.

Yes, but you have to admit, they made it easy for the pols. It's akin to a 4 on 1 fast break and Crist gets credit for an assist.

Tom

05-06-2012, 12:19 PM

I guess Cuomo had the hispanic guy killed on the backstretch of Churchill last night to hurt NYRA's reputation.

Yes we do, but it's a hard slog getting others to be sensible about it.

You make your own point nicely.

FenceBored

05-06-2012, 12:40 PM

You make your own point nicely.

Good, we're making progress.

thaskalos

05-06-2012, 12:55 PM

So I guess we don't need to hold trials anymore......just read a few news stories and we know all there is to know.

Never mind to history of corruption, bias, agendas and what not against an organization that runs the most popular racing in the nation year in and year out.

All this is true, Tom...

But this organization that you speak of has not been free of scandal itself in the past...

Let's not pretend that this "history of corruption" can only be found in the NYRA's enemies...

We need trials in order to get to the bottom of things...but this never prevented us before from talking about these cases -- and choosing sides -- long before the trials actually took place.

We are not "blasting" anybody here...

We are only offering opinions...based on the reports that have already come out. And we reserve the right to change our opinion...if more "truth" comes out in the future.

This has always been the way things are done in cases of controversy...and I don't see why we have to play the "waiting game" now...just because the NYRA is involved.

Would we feel the same if this scandal involved California racing?