I Just can't help it

[Dave Schwartz]

It seems that I often post provocative things and then resist the urge to respond. Well, this is another of those times. I got this one from a good friend who shall remain nameless (but he always uses interesting signtaure lines <G> And his first name is Dick. Schmidt.).

Anyway, since things have cooled off on the other political threads, it was probably time for a "heater" anyway. <G>

Actually, this describes very much how I see things, but I suppose there MIGHT be another view point. <G>

Dave Schwartz

+++++++++++++
GOD GIVEN COMMON SENSE vs. "RELATIVE MORALITY"/ aka MORAL STUPIDITY

For those who don't know General Hawley, he's a newly retired USAF 4-star general. He commanded the USAF Air Combat Command [our front-line fighters and bombers]. The Command headquarters is at Langley AFB, VA. General Hawley is now retired and no longer required to be politically correct. His short speech is very much to the point. The following are excerpts:

"Since the attack [9-11], I have seen, heard, and read thoughts of such surpassing stupidity that they must be addressed. You've heard them too. Here they are:

1) "We're not good, they're not evil, everything is relative." Listen carefully: We're good, they're evil, nothing is relative. Say it with me now and free yourselves. You see, folks, saying "We're good" doesn't mean, "We're perfect." Okay? The only perfect being is the bearded guy on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. The plain fact is that our country has, with all our mistakes and blunders, always been and always will be the greatest beacon of freedom, charity, opportunity, and affection in history. If you need proof, open all the borders on Earth and see what happens.

2) "Violence only leads to more violence." This one is so stupid you usually have to be the president of an Ivy League university to say it. Here's the truth, which you know in your heads and hearts already: Ineffective, unfocused violence leads to more violence. Limp, panicky, half-measures lead to more violence. However, complete, fully thought-through, professional, well-executed violence never leads to more violence because, you see, afterwards, the other guys are all dead. That's right, dead. Not "on trial," not "reeducated," not "nurtured back into the bosom of love." Dead. D-E --Well, you get the idea.

3) "The CIA and the rest of our intelligence community have failed us." For 25 years we have chained our spies like dogs to a stake in the ground, and now that the house has been robbed, we yell at them for not protecting us. Starting in the late seventies, under Carter appointee Stansfield Turner, the giant brains who get these giant ideas decided that the best way to gather international intelligence was to use spy satellites. "After all, (they reasoned,) you can see a license plate from 200 miles away." This is very helpful if you've been attacked by a license plate. Unfortunately, we were attacked by humans. Finding humans is not possible with satellites. You have to use other humans. When we bought all our satellites, we fired all our humans, and here's the really stupid part. It takes years, decades to infiltrate new humans into the worst places of the world. You can't just have a guy who looks like Gary Busey in a Spring Break '93 sweatshirt plop himself down in a coffee shop in Kabul and say "Hiya, boys. Gee, I sure would like to meet that bin Laden fella. "Well, you can, but all you'd be doing is giving the bad guys a story they'll be telling for years.

4) "These people are poor and helpless, and that's why they're angry at us." Uh-huh, and Jeffrey Dahmer's frozen head collection was just a desperate cry for help. The terrorists and their backers are richer than Elton John and, ironically, a good deal less annoying. The poor helpless people, you see, are the villagers they tortured and murdered to stay in power. Mohammed Atta, one of the evil scumbags who steered those planes into the killing grounds is the son of a Cairo surgeon. But you knew this, too. In the sixties and seventies, all the pinheads marching against the war were upper-middle-class college kids who grabbed any cause they could think of to get out of their final papers and spend more time drinking. It's the same today.

5) "Any profiling is racial profiling." Who's killing us here, the Norwegians? Just days after the attack, the New York Times had an article saying dozens of extended members of the gazillionaire bin Laden family living in America were afraid of reprisals and left in a huff, never to return to studying at Harvard and using too much Drakkar. I'm crushed. Please come back. Let's all stop singing "We Are the World" for a minute and think practically. I don't want to be sitting on the floor in the back of a plane four seconds away from hitting Mt. Rushmore and turn, grinning, to the guy next to me to say, "Well, at least we didn't offend them."

SO HERE'S what I resolve for the New Year: Never to forget our murdered brothers and sisters. Never to let the relativists get away with their immoral thinking. After all, no matter what your daughter's political science professor says, we didn't start this. Have you seen that bumper sticker that says, "No More Hiroshimas"? I wish I had one that says, "No More Pearl Harbors."

[boxcar]

Bravo, Schwartzy for posting this! I luvvvved it.

Boxcar

[lsbets]

I loved it too - and I was also thinking today that things were a little too quiet on the political end, but could not think of anything new to stir things up. Good post.

[PaceAdvantage]

Why did we let the dozens of members of extended bin Laden family leave America without a thorough interrogation? Weren't planes grounded for quite some time after 9/11? How were they able to fly out of the country? Or is this an urban legend?

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Why did we let the dozens of members of extended bin Laden family leave America without a thorough interrogation? Weren't planes grounded for quite some time after 9/11? How were they able to fly out of the country? Or is this an urban legend?

Pa.... I read that several were followed for months......and wire tapped at their destinations........thinking they were home free, we used them to gather info.

Bravo on the article..........

[Tom]

Oh boy, Dave, you instigater! <G>

Earthquak ein Iran. Maybe 30-50 thousand dead, untold are hurt, suffering, homeless, hungry.
What a sad thing for them that the USA wouyld take advantage of that situation! When they are down, the Big Evil, the USA crosses the borders, treads on Arab ground. Our forces make their wy to the disastor sites and set up camp. An occuppting force? Easy pickin's? Invasion #3?
Yeah, right. Who is always one of the first to show up to offer aid and comfort, even to our enemies? Who else is always their with first aid and even while the bleeding is still being stopped, back at home preperations are being made for long term help. Who else but Big Evil, the USA.
Why, I am sure that the only reason the Taliban and Al Qeda are not there right now pitching in is that we took their spots. LEft them no room. Boy, we are really a pian in the *ss sometimes.

And then, those halloween costumed air-heads that rule Iran tell us that they will accept our aid, but not to expect any thawing of the cold relations that exist between the two countries. And what do we do? Pack up and leave? Tell them where to go? Oh Nooooooooooooo! Not US. We just say, yeah, yeah, fine. Where do you need this blood supply stored? How much food do they need over there?

You know what is going to bring dowm the Islamic world? End terroist support world-wide? The truth. The truth about the USA and maybe some of these young boys lying near death in a MASH Tent, getting a transfusion and some food will see the Flag and later on in life they will associate it with what it really stands for-not the lies and crap they have been fed since birth by truly evil people.
Maybe those who now walk free in Afgahnistan and try to today in Iraq will have the courage to tell the islamic cockroaches to go to hell and say hi to allah when you get there.

Now Iran has two freed countries bordering it, so it will harder and harder for the brain-damaged halloween costumed black hat bottom feeders to keep the boys in line. Once you been to Kansas city, how you gonna keep 'em down of the farm?

[kenwoodallpromos]

Inndiiividually and collectively we are better off polically and financially than whoever is #2! If we want a change it is a numbers game instead of violence.

[Amazin]

Speaking of contradictions,I think Bush is over his head declaring his commitment to Jesus Christ. If I was running for president,I'd certainly bring up that issue.There is alot of meat to chew on there. He's not even in the same league.Has he read anything Jesus said like In Matthew 5:43,44 :

, Jesus said: "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you."

Let's see Bush pull off that miracle.

[Dave Schwartz]

Amazin,

Yup. You passed the test.

See, I wanted to see if anyone was smart enough to know that this thread was about Bush.

Only you were smart enough to make the connection (again).


LOL

[Big Bill]

Dave,

What Boxcar said!

Happy New Year to all.

Big Bill

[Dick Schmidt]

I know that violence never solves anything in the long term. It is just so tempting to think that it does. Consider some of the problems we tried to solve using violence, and then consider how much better off we would have been to accept the status quo and talk out the solutions. Some of our noted failures:

1) We used violence to create our country.

2) We used violence to give black men and women the basic human right of not being property.

3) We used violence to close the death-camps.

4) Most recently, we used violence to overthrow a dictator who kept a special prison just to house and, when the mood struck, torture children.

And you know, now that I think of it, it is most likely all Bush's fault. Especially that last one. Damn the man!

Dick


"If you are unwilling to defend your right to your own lives, then you are merely like mice trying to argue with owls. You think their ways are wrong. They think you are dinner." --Terry Goodkind in "Naked Empire"

[hcap]

Do you think all this would've happened if Iraq's chief export was broccoli?

False story Dave
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/hawley.htm

"Origins: Yes, Gen. Richard E. Hawley is a real person, a United States Air Force general who served as commander of the USAF's Air Combat Command until his retirement in 1999, but no, he didn't write or deliver the speech quoted above. This "speech" is actually a column by humorist Larry Miller which appeared in The Daily Standard on 14 January 2002; the version circulating on the Internet omits the opening and closing paragraph"

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/000/762dbnlm.asp?pg=1

"I'm happy to introduce you to Larry Miller. You may recognize him from his work as a comedian and actor (he's been in everything--"The Princess Diaries," "Best in Show," "10 Things I Hate About You," and his turn as the sinister Doorman on "Seinfeld" stand out). Look for his essays in The Daily Standard every other week."

The General's actual comments are a bit more tame, but by no means dovish.

However the devil is in the details as usual.
The whole "good vs evil" argument is difficult to apply without knowing THE DETAILS.
Your a programmer, I'm sure "garbage in, garbage out" must concern you as you program.
Without factual imput no matter how great or nifty a program may be, the output is doomed to be false-or at least cannot be relied upon. How we responded to the threat of Saddam, WE BELIEVED to be based on the truth.
And we trusted our leaders.
But if the info we were fed was false or exagerated, our conclusions may be erroneous-and the use of violence may also be erroneous.

In manufacturing the case for war, the neoconservatives in the top echelons of the Defense Department set up their own parallel intelligence apparatus, as Seymour Hersh, Jim Lobe, Robert Dreyfuss, and others have reported, devoted to churning out war propaganda rather than objective analysis. Rather than discover the facts, the "Office of Special Plans" and Vice President Cheney's staff "cherry-picked" data to suit their agenda.
Karen Kwiatkowski (google for her) details in her multi-part account of life inside the Pentagon's policy bunker during the run-up to war, the system in which OSP chief Abram Shulsky and his policy shop worked was guaranteed to produce misleading information. It was created for that purpose.

Here's another General who sees things somewhat different

Excerpts of Gen. Anthony Zinni (ret.) during a speech before the Florida Economic Club, Aug. 23, 2002:

"But let me tell you what the problem is now as I see it. You need to weigh this: what are your priorities in the region? That's the first issue in my mind."

"The Middle East peace process, in my mind, has to be a higher priority. Winning the war on terrorism has to be a higher priority. More directly, the situation in Afghanistan and Pakistan, Central Asia need to be resolved, making sure Al Qaeda can't rise again from the ashes that are destroyed. Taliban cannot come back. That the warlords can't regain power over Kabul and Karzai, and destroy everything that has happened so far."

"Our relationships in the region are in major disrepair, not to the point where we can't fix them, but we need to quit making enemies we don't need to make enemies out of. And we need to fix those relationships. There's a deep chasm growing between that part of the world and our part of the world. And it's strange, about a month after 9/11, they were sympathetic and compassionate toward us. How did it happen over the last year? And we need to look at that -- that is a higher priority."

Also in
Nashville, August 2002 receiving the group's Dwight D. Eisenhower Distinguished Service Award, recognition for his 35 years in the Marine Corps.

Vice President Cheney was also there, delivering a speech on foreign policy.

"Time is not on our side," the vice president said. "The risks of inaction are far greater than the risks of action."

"These guys don't understand what they are getting into." -General Zinni

Zinni's concern deepened at a Senate hearing in February, just six weeks before the war began. As he awaited his turn to testify, he listened to Pentagon and State Department officials talk vaguely about the "uncertainties" of a postwar Iraq. He began to think they were doing the wrong thing the wrong way. "I was listening to the panel, and I realized, 'These guys don't have a clue.' "

"The more I saw, the more I thought that this was the product of the neocons who didn't understand the region and were going to create havoc there. These were dilettantes from Washington think tanks who never had an idea that worked on the ground."

Also General Zinni
Washington Post
Tuesday, December 23, 2003; Page C01

"Iraq is in serious danger of coming apart because of lack of planning, underestimating the task and buying into a flawed strategy," he says. "The longer we stubbornly resist admitting the mistakes and not altering our approach, the harder it will be to pull this chestnut out of the fire."


Excerpts from
http://www.mca-usniforum2003.org/forum03zinni.htm

"Whatever blood is poured onto the battlefield could be wasted if we don't follow it up with understanding what victory is."

"These are now culture wars that we're involved in. We don't understand that culture. I've spent the last 15 years of my life in this part of the world. And I'll tell you, every time I hear somebody talk about this, or one of the dilettantes back here speak about this region of the world—they don't have a clue. They don't understand what makes them tick. They don't understand where they are in their own history. They don't understand what our role is in moving this away from a disaster for the entire world, and for us and our interests."

"It kills me when I hear of the continuing casualties and the sacrifice that's being made. It also kills me when I hear someone say that, well, each one of those is a personal tragedy, but in the overall scheme of things, they're insignificant statistically. Never should we let any political leaders utter those words. This is the greatest treasure the United States has, our enlisted men and women. And when we put them into harm's way, it had better count for something. It can't be because some policy wonk back here has a brain fart of an idea of a strategy that isn't thought out."

December 24, 2003 Excerpts from
http://www.warblogging.com/archives/000781.php

"This, my American friends, is not democracy. Whatever Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz may tell you, this is not democracy. The order being enforce in Iraq by the army of occupation — the American army — is purely and simply dictatorial and totalitarian. America would not and should not stand for it if it were to happen here. Why should Iraqis stand for it when foreigners enter their country, occupy their nation by force and arrest high school students for daring to display a photograph of their deposed president?"

PA
Why did we let the dozens of members of extended bin Laden family leave America without a thorough interrogation? Weren't planes grounded for quite some time after 9/11? How were they able to fly out of the country? Or is this an urban legend?
http://www.judicialwatch.org/080703_PR.shtml
Judicial Watch to subpoena the redacted pages of the Joint Congressional Committee’s 9/11 Report dealing with Saudi Arabia."

The controversial Report of the U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence and the U. S. House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence entitled, “Joint Inquiry Into Intelligence Community Activities Before and After the Terrorist Attacks of September 11, 2001,” is nearly 900 pages long and features at least 28 pages of redacted material detailing Saudi support of and involvement in terrorism. The full, classified report, dated December 2002, was released to the public on Thursday, July 24, 2003 in a declassified and highly redacted form.

9-11 Insider Traders: Why don't we know who they are—or more importantly—why don't we care?
By Michael Gaddy
http://www.sierratimes.com/03/04/10/gaddy.htm

Speculators sold "short" 38 stocks that could reasonably be expected to fall in value as a result of the attacks of September 11. Short selling of stocks involves the opportunity to gain large profits by passing shares to a friendly third party, then buying them back when the price falls.

"Fox News on Oct. 16, 2001, broke stories disclosing the use of sophisticated Promis software by the FBI and the Justice Department. A multitude of court records and investigative reports have established not only the reality, but also the versatility of a program initially designed to incorporate data from a variety of data bases in different languages into one readable format. Fox and the Washington Times have both reported based on interviews with Justice Department officials that PROMIS is used to monitor banking and financial transactions in a virtual real-time environment."

An examination of "put options" during this period with the above-mentioned companies would reveal the following:
On Sept. 6, 2001, the Thursday before the tragedy, 2,075 put options were made on United Airlines and on Sept. 10, the day before the attacks, 2,282 put options were recorded for American Airlines. Given the prices at the time, this could have yielded speculators between $2 million and $4 million in profit. This averages out to 75 times the number of normal activity on these entities.

FOLLOW THE MONEY!

[Tom]

It works.
Ever try robbing a liquor store by asking please?
Think Hitler would have stopped if we asked nicely?

[lsbets]

Hcap,

There is evil in the world, and we must deal with it now rather than later. Sorry bud, you could not be more wrong in your thinking. As simple as the statement is, I think the way that I described my leaving to my son sums it up pretty damned well:

There are some bad people in the world that need to be dealt with to help keep you and Mommy safe. I'd rather do it now than have to have you leave your family and do it when you grow up. I love you and I'll be back as soon as I can.

I have no problem teaching my son that sometimes it is okay to kill, and I truly believe that there are people in this world that need killing. If our enemies can't wait to behold the glory of Allah, than I am more than willing to help set up the meeting.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by hcap
FOLLOW THE MONEY!

first off....who cares who wrote it? Larry Miller is a funny guy. he should have received an emmy for his roles on Law and Order, but I digress...........

I have stated this over and over......."We needed to Kick somebodies ass" Iraq was as good a target as any. We showed the Arab world that we can march across their countries in a matter of days. That is what is important. If you are "joe leader of an Arab state" you might end up living in a hole. The message is there for all of these idiots to see. It will remain until those kids lining the arab street, grow old. The rest of this stuff is secondary at best. It had to be done and I am glad President Bush had the testicles to do it. Especially without a U.N. signoff. It means more that way. We should have been much more ferocious about it though. More people dying in the streets in puffs of smoke, flames and hell fire. Those impressions would be left for a longer period of time. Allah's ass would be on fire if it was up to me............

Oh yeah.....Hcap.........i can see how all that oil flowing out of Iraq has changed the world landscape.........yeah right....it's all about oil. Don't respond...... I won't waste my time reading it.

[Larry Hamilton]

The greater evil is those who would tolerate evil to "give peace a chance." These 3 or 4 members of this board are willing to give our country away thru inaction. They too represent a facet of terrorism that must be stopped. They don't belong in any country they wont protect--certainly not ours.

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by JustRalph
It had to be done and I am glad President Bush had the testicles to do it. Especially without a U.N. signoff. It means more that way.

Personally, I am uninterested in President Bush's testicles.

As to his truthfulness however, that is another issue.

Check out this site....


http://www.newwartimes.com/warnings.html

[DJofSD]

Does evil exist? If so, how do you define it? Is it experienced in our day to day lifes?

If you would like to find answers to questions such as these, read M. Scott Peck's "People of the Lie."

How does it relate to this thread? Read chapter 6 entitled "Mylai: An Examination og Group Evil."

DJofSD

[Amazin]

Lh states:
The greater evil is those who would tolerate evil to "give peace a chance."

Guess that leaves JC out.

LH further states:They don't belong in any country they wont protect--certainly not ours.

The greatest threat to this country comes from within. Drop Bush not bombs.

[lousycapperII]

The greatest threat to this country comes from within. Drop Bush not bombs. [/B][/QUOTE]

Is the SEARS TOWER high enough?

-LCII

[hcap]

DJofSDDoes evil exist? If so, how do you define it? Is it experienced in our day to day lifes?
If you would like to find answers to questions such as these, read M. Scott Peck's "People of the Lie."
How does it relate to this thread? Read chapter 6 entitled "Mylai: An Examination og Group Evil."

Since I'm not gonna run out and buy it, how about summarizing your view?

By the way, the last time I may have believed in absolute good and evil was when I watched "The Exorcist" and believed the devil puked up pea soup. Since then I have come to beleive all sorts of vomit exist in varying degrees-depending on what belief system you buy into.
My acceptance of "relative" good and evil" does not mean I deny the existance of absolute good and evil, just that that discernment is hard to come by.

Instead of "The Exorcist" , try "Rashomon"--Akira Kurosawa

A comment ----
" The aspect of the film that effected the most lasting and memorable impression upon me was the director's altogether novel and groundbreaking approach to creating a film: concerning any situation or event, the various participants will subsequently reveal differing and often opposing versions of reality. Many reasons for this lack of unity exist. Naturally, people will remember facets of an experience in different ways, emphasizing disparate portions of the incident with variability. In addition, each one relating the events of an incident will perhaps want to portray their actions as better than they were in reality, either for the sake of covering up their own cowardice or guilt, or simply to add in a noble quality to their actions. "

Other than bloating up on our money, isn't this the reason lawyers and judges exist? In fact any judicial system is supposed to wade thru conflicting "relative" points of view and find "absolute" truth. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.

So the real question is truth absolute or relative?

[MarylandPaul@HSH]

I *like* Elton John.

[Show Me the Wire]

Truth can be both absolute and relative. It is absolute truth, in math, one plus one equals two. Under a set of relative facts this absolute mathematical truth may be perceived as one plus one equals one. If I happened upon a glass container holding what I perceive as a single drop of water, I perceive the sum of two drops of water as one.

My relative truth is real based on my observation of the facts. The absolute truth is obscured, because outside my presence a person placed two single droplets of water at separate times into the glass container making it the absolute truth, in math, the glass container holds two drops of water. Both truths seem correct under each set of facts, one set of facts being absolute and another set of facts based on perception.

The question may not be is truth either absolute or relative, but how much distortion of absoluteness is caused through perception. The varying degree of distortion is relative to perception and defines truth as known by the observer, believer of the truth stated or observed.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality.

[Dave Schwartz]

SMTW,

That is, perhaps, the best definition of "personal truth" that I have ever seen.

Thank you.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[JustRalph]

you can talk about perceived truth and perceived evil all day long. there are absolute truths and evils.

take this example"

Saddam Husseins son kidnaps a political enemy and

has him fed into a Wood Chipper while he is alive and kicking

that is absolute evil no matter how you perceive it.

To the witnesses, it is absolute truth to believe that this was an evil act. You cannot see this and not think it evil (not counting for mental defect) To non witnesses who say it isn't absolutely evil because they didn't witness the event, or that they are not sure how valid the witness perceptions are, is hogwash. If they won't even agree that a hypothetical description of the above is absolute evil, then they will never be swayed. There is absolute evil in this world. There is absolute truth also. Perceptions are personal in nature. The act is still evil..........no matter the perceptions of those witnesses. Evil is evil. Truth is truth. But perception can distort all of the above. Perception is a personal problem and sometimes influenced by other factors. Perception of an event is a totally different argument. But it has no bearing on whether something is truthful or evil. There are no true shades of evil or Truth. an act is either evil or not. Facts are either truthful or untruthful. Based on what we perceive, we must decide. For some of us it is easy to make these decisions. For others not so easy.................it is what makes the world go round. It stirs debate. But it doesn't change the nature of the event or the facts.

[Dave Schwartz]

Ralph,

Agreed. But for the truths that are not so apparent I still like SMTW's analogy.

And, it would appear that many of life's truths are not so black-and-white.

Dave

PS: The wood-chipper was also an excellent analogy and, some would argue, a potential destiny for Saddam. <G>

[Amazin]

Truth has nothing to do with perception or fact.This ia a superficial form of truth and therefore not THE truth. Both perception and facts can be distorted altred or manufactured and ultimately changed.

Sadamm kills x number of people and x number of people want revenge. An earth quake kills 30k Iranians.Does anyone want revenge?Obviously not. But the facts are the same.People's lives unecessarily lost resulting in suffering. The only difference is the THOUGHTS process of UNDERSTANDING the scheme of things and the ultimate truth

[Show Me the Wire]

Dave:

Thank you for your compliment.


Amazin:

If a fact is altered, distorted, changed, etc., it is no longer a fact and that is an absolute truth.

Regarding your earthqauke scenario, who can physical revenge be taken against? Divine providence? Due to the suffering I believe some people will turn away from their beliefs as a substitute for physical revenge.

You have an interesting perception of truth as you speak in absolutes and conclusions.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[Amazin]

SMTW quoteIf a fact is altered, distorted, changed, etc., it is no longer a fact and that is an absolute truth.

I'll give you an example of what I mean. When you were born people called you a baby.That was a fact.When you were 10,they called you a child.That was a fact.Now they call you an adult and that is a fact. Where's the truth when the fact keeps changing?

[Show Me the Wire]

Amazin:

I believe you are refering to descriptions and descriptions are not facts. Factually, I am born and I am a human being, those facts cannot be altered without changing the truth.

Descriptions i.e toddler, are not facts. I understand the reason why you believe facts can be altered, becuase you believe descriptions are absolute facts.

However, I agree, it is a fact that descriptions can and do change.


Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[Amazin]

SMTW saysI believe you are refering to descriptions and descriptions are not facts.

True ,but in this reality,descriptions are perceived as facts. Saddam killed x number of people is a description that is taken as fact to put him to death.

What I'm saying is whether it be description or fact,they're all transitory in this reality and therefore are not truth.You were a child,or you are a human being is all transitory.It will all vanish.They are only temporary facts or descriptions that will change in time.Truth is deeper than that and allways runs in the backround,being impercievable to us most of the time.

[Tom]

The truth is something that I tell with complete confidence, that allows me to sleep at night, and that I can always remeber to tell you the same again at a later time.
And that's the bottom line.

Amazin...? for U

30,000 people died unecesarily in an earthquake?
Isn't that really a necessity, since we all must die at some point,
and this was obviously their "time?"
Now, The iranian clowns that run the place are not allowing humantarian aide from the US to go to their "ground zero" becasue of political fears. So those that die from here are in could be called "unnecessary" due to islamic stupidity and fears?

Or, as Michael Savage describe the earthquake, it was God telling allah, "You want a piece of me?"

****
Sick joke waring.....

A guy and does to the pearly gates where he meets St. Peter.
"You must be pretty busy this week with that big earthquake and all," he says.
St Peter replies, "Quake? What quake?"



:rolleyes:

[boxcar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Amazin
Truth has nothing to do with perception or fact.This ia a superficial form of truth and therefore not THE truth. Both perception and facts can be distorted altred or manufactured and ultimately changed.

Sadamm kills x number of people and x number of people want revenge. An earth quake kills 30k Iranians.Does anyone want revenge?Obviously not. But the facts are the same.People's lives unecessarily lost resulting in suffering. The only difference is the THOUGHTS process of UNDERSTANDING the scheme of things and the ultimate truth

Scuse me, sir, but the facts most certainly are not the same! The only common element in your two propositions are that thousands of people died. What you conveniently overlook is that some people were murdered, others were "merely" killed. The former were murdered by immoral acts of a man, while the latter were killed by an "amoral natural" event.

Even if theists (such as myself) who believe in the absolute sovereignty of God were to say that the Iranians (in your example) were ultimately slain by the permissive will of God, we could not argue that God is immoral because tens of thousands fell by "his hand". This is so because the bible reveals certain things about man and God (man's creator). For example, man is fallen ("utterly sinful') and fully deserves God's holy wrath (justice). But Saddam Hussien (who may very well think he is a god) is not one, nor is he holy and therefore, he unjustly murdered 300 to 400 thousand people during his reign of terror and tyranny.

In summary, then, there are no parallels between the "natural" phenomenon of an earthquake and, consequently, the loss of lives and the immoral acts of a sinful man who murdered (or ordered the murder) of other human beings -- even when those he murdered are in the same spiritual condition as he.

Boxcar

[lousycapperII]

That we better enjoy each and every heartbeat because this might be the last one, especially, if you liisten to Michael Savage...AKA Mr. Positive Attitude [that's a yoke, son]. Ha, Ha!

-LCII

[Amazin]

Boxcar

From what I have heard,those who have died either from an earthquake or a murderer are not bitter about their death.They have forgiven the cause of their death,be it mother nature or Saddam and have moved on.

In their new reality,where the physical does not rule,the truth is more apparent.

[Tom]

Originally posted by Amazin
Boxcar

From what I have heard,those who have died either from an earthquake or a murderer are not bitter about their death.They have forgiven the cause of their death,be it mother nature or Saddam and have moved on.

In their new reality,where the physical does not rule,the truth is more apparent.

????? Are you talking to the dead now???:confused:

[Amazin]

Not personally

[Lefty]

amazin, are you saying murderers should go unpunished? Are you saying that if a dictator tries to enslave us we should not kill him and obtain our freedom? I think if you were born in one of the enslaved countries you would have a very different viewpoint. And if the "heros" of this country, past and present, had your mindset we would surely be enslaved. Better come out of the "heavens" that is is the domain of the 5 yr old and get in the real world, where there are real people out to do others real harm and must be dealt with harshly.

[boxcar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Amazin
Boxcar

From what I have heard,those who have died either from an earthquake or a murderer are not bitter about their death.They have forgiven the cause of their death,be it mother nature or Saddam and have moved on.

In their new reality,where the physical does not rule,the truth is more apparent.

From what you've "heard"? Who told you this? Some mystic?

Evidently, you have never read a passage like this one in the Good Book:

Rev 6:9-11
9 And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed also.
NAS

Even Able sought to have his murder avenged:

Gen 4:9-11
9 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?" And he said, "I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?" 10 And He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to Me from the ground. 11 And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand.
NAS

And just, lawful, civilized societies do not forgive murderers. Murderers are hunted, caught, jailed, prosecuted, convicted and tried. Coversely, societies don't prosecute earthquakes, do they?

Two-fold bottom line: There is no moral equivalency between a natural death and an unnatural one --and as usual, you know not of what you speak -- particularly when it pertains to spiritual realities.

Boxcar

[VetScratch]

Money is the key to understanding our presence in Iraq. When $100-billion+ has been spent by U.S. taxpayers to rebuild Iraq's infrastructure, there is no possibility that the result will be other than Iraqis who are more productive but remain thoroughly anti-American.

The money twist is political insistence that re-vitalizing Iraq will be our $100-billion gift rather than a reconstruction loan to be repaid from oil revenues that are likely to surpass all expectations. Very respected petroleum geophysicists have asserted that Iraq's reserves have been grossly underestimated and may now consitute the largest "national" oil reserve in the world.

Without a $100-billion+ loan obligation, Iraqi oil margins will enrich big oil interests, just as they do in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, where American society is also hated while a privileged class of "new globalized Americans" are allowed to collect their pound of flesh.

Who are the friends of big oil? Cheney? Bush? Duh!

Of course, U.S. taxpayers will foot the bill to move the profit horizon from Iraqi oil closer to the oil barons.

Any honest attempt to end Middle-East terrorism, oppression, and anti-American sentiment must focus on the Israeli-Palestinian issue. We will have no friends in the Middle East until this issue is resolved. How sad that so many Israelis and Arabs must suffer because the military-industrial gnomes and oil barons need strife to profit.

[Lefty]

If you think we are in Iraq to make money for the oil barons,re:Bush, Cheney you have bght into knee-jerk liberal rhetoric.
Guess what, take the oil away and you and the others who can't drive your cars, heat your homes and all the other things that come from oil, it is you that will cry the loudest. But you can't stand the thght that oil companies make a profit. Wake up and embrace capitalism.
Bush and Cheney would have done allright for themselves, war or no war. You are so used to demos and their ulterior motives you wouldn't know people who really are trying to do the right thing for their country if you tripped over them.

[lousycapperII]

"Any honest attempt to end Middle-East terrorism, oppression, and anti-American sentiment must focus on the Israeli-Palestinian issue. We will have no friends in the Middle East until this issue is resolved. How sad that so many Israelis and Arabs must suffer because the military-industrial gnomes and oil barons need strife to profit."




The only way this will get resolved is total victory by one side or the other. Negotiations are not going to work any more than Neville Chamberlain's visit with Herr Hitler prior to WWII. The "White Paper" he so lovingly waved, while exiting his return flight, proved to be worthless. Try to negotiate with the school yard bully and see what happens!

Lest we forget...General Douglas MacArthur when he said, "There is no substitute for victory."

[Tom]

Originally posted by VetScratch
[B]

Who are the friends of big oil? Cheney? Bush? Duh!

Of course, U.S. taxpayers will foot the bill to move the profit horizon from Iraqi oil closer to the oil barons.

Any honest attempt to end Middle-East terrorism, oppression, and anti-American sentiment must focus on the Israeli-Palestinian issue. We will have no friends in the Middle East until this issue is resolved. How sad that so many Israelis and Arabs must suffer because the military-industrial gnomes and oil barons need strife to profit.

Who are the friends of big oil?
Me, you, everyone who drive a car, watches TV,uses any kind of plastic, vinyl, PVC.....oil is a key ingrediant in our economy. And not just for gasoline.
And wihtout our oil money (western world) the arabs would be a nothing group of camel humpers contributing nothing to the world and having nothing. You think that sheik that owned Point Given would have been racing him? Hell no, he would have eaten him!

And many honest attempts have been made to resolve the palestinean issue-they are always thwarted by POS terrorists like Arafart-they should have killed him when they had him surrounded. These mind-dead homicide bombers aren't concerned with oil, only their own insanity. There will not be peace until the palestineans are thoroughtly beaten, destroyed, driven into the sea, anhilated, snuffed out, erradicated, take your pick.

[lsbets]

VS,

You say American society is hated in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia - I would ask you, how do you know that? You sound so sure of yourself. Do you have first hand knowledge? Have you ever been to Kuwait? How many Kuwaitis do you know?

I won't speak to Saudi Arabia, I have never been there and do not know any Saudis. However, I have spent a great deal of time in Kuwait, and have several Kuwaitis who I call friends. I can tell you, based on my firsthand experience, you could not be more wrong in how the Kuwaitis perceive us. They may disagree with some of our policies, but Kuwait is by and large a fairly westernized society - you can get McDs, KFC, BK, Fudruckers, etc.... - most of the women do not cover themselves, and wear way too much makeup. A small minority of the population is of Saudi descent and follows strict Islamic law, but the vast majority of the population does not.

In terms of the war and oil - if our goal was to get oil, we could have done what France did and kiss Hussein's ass to ensure the flow of oil. You are sort of right when you say that some aspects of the war were about oil - France's opposition to the war was largly based on their interest in Iraq's oil.

[VetScratch]

Lefty,

Why was our money gifted and not loaned? The gift was not the idea of liberals. I would have favored a quick nuke strike to take out the regime... then just leave Baghdad smoldering... no troops are needed where there are no friends to win and no spoils of war to keep!

LCII,

There would already have been a decision if we did not prop up both sides of strife in the Middle East. We even backed Iraq against Iran. The only legitimate reason for us to intervene is colonialism... I could see that as a legimate investment of our tax dollars.

Lsbets,

In Kuwait, there is a growing backlash against the Americanization that you described... we always try to export our social behavior as the price of friendship.

[lsbets]

VS,

Again I will ask - how do you know of this growing backlash? Do you have any firsthand knowledge? You assert it as if it is a fact, but I am asking what you base that statement on.

[VetScratch]

Lsbets,

Second hand via half-sister who worked for Reuters in Tel Aviv until 2002, but she got to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia several times a year. Neither are democracies, and neither extends full equal rights to women with respect to politics, employment, or legal/property rights. Throughout the Middle East, secular Muslim law generally applies to disputes between men and women.

Rather than export hamburgers and cosmetics, we should be cracking down on the Religious Right and Catholic Church in America, both of which oppress women. When all are equal here we can consider the plight of others.

Granted, citizens in Kuwait are subsidized in grand style... and they may be reacting to criticism from neighbors who think they have sold out to the West. However, public pro-American views are waning... whether under pressure or not.

[Jaguar]

VS, interesting that you believe that women are oppressed by Christians in America.

I would have thought quite the opposite. Namely, that faithful Christians are interested in advancing morality and in working to enhance the dignity of women.

Jesus gave multiple comments in praise of faithful women- such as Rahab, Martha, etc. He emphasized to His listeners that such wonderful women are the backbone of His Church.

There are a great many individuals in academia that- for whatever reason- hate the Christian church. You are too intelligent and too thoughtful to have fallen for their casuistry...if they have- in fact- influenced you.

All The Best,

Jaguar

[VetScratch]

Does anyone expect a non-secular democracy to emerge in Iraq?

Lebanon has been devastated by strife, Turkey is viewed as a crossroads country... so where is the model for a non-secular democracy in Iraq?

[kenwoodallpromos]

I think we should crack down on anyone who is not middle-of-the-road like me!!

[VetScratch]

Jaguar,

Modern theologians have found no evidence that Jesus and his disciples reviled Mary Magdellan as a harlot... this was a Vatican invention. Like all prophets who have left their mark, a lot of BS has been appended to Christ's legacy. Secular views on birth control and abortion should never become political issues in a non-secular state.

I resent not being eligible for the big job in Rome. From what I've read about the succession of Borgia Popes, that was a nice family business. Of course, at my banquets, handsome guys would be pouring the wine and riding naked on the white stallions! :D

PS: I bet they were really geldings despite chronicled accounts of the Borgia banquets.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Tom- we're not out of bananas- we have Amazin! Amazin- I understand what you mean. Nothing in this life matters as it will become the past because eventually it will all disappear. And since the future (the afterlife or absolute truth) is truthfully unknown, anything goes in this life!!LOL!! We can vote for Dean and then give Hussein and Ben Laden bail!! THAT is relative moralism by liberals! Relative moralism means it is moral if I or my relatives do iit!!LOL!!

[Tom]

Is there a full moon tonight?:confused:

[Jaguar]

VS, there is a common mis-understanding in this world regarding the nature of Holy Orders(the diaconate, the priesthood, and the episcopacy- that is, deacons, priests and bishops).

The three branches of the historic church which have continued up to today are the Anglican church, the Roman Catholic church, and the Eastern Orthodox church. These 3 churches have maintained the tradition of unbroken apostolic succession, as ordained(which means "ordered", "directed") by Jesus.

The fact that Jesus chose men to be His first Apostles(what we would call bishops) and instructed them to make new deacons, priests, and bishops- by means of a bishop(or several bishops together) laying hands on the candidate.

What is unique about this "laying on of hands" method is that by doing so the bishop(or bishops gathered for that ordination or consecration) transmit the authority(what we might call the "Holy Spirit") which Jesus imparted to their forebears when He laid His hands upon His Apostles.

Therefor, the nature of Holy Orders is sacramental. The fact that Jesus chose men to be His bishops is based upon reasons known only to Him. But, his actions were never intended to impugn women in any way. He emphasized that men and women are equal in God's eyes.

An often stated truism is that a man cannot be a mother because that role was not assigned to men by the Creator. Christians accept the fact that God has different roles in mind for men and women and that this does not derogate either gender.

I would recap by saying that the nature of Holy Orders is sacramental(sacred in origin)- and not based upon the sex of the individual. There is more to this, but perhaps for another forum.

All The Best,

Jaguar

[VetScratch]

Jaguar,

Most of the great prophets substantially agree on a core set of values that circumscribe what is fair, ethical, or harmonious... however, what is sacred is obviously beyond man's comprehension. Sacred causes too frequently saddle War, the white mount among the Four Horses of the Apocalypse.

Placing Christ in historical perspective, his choice of Apostles may have been more pragmatic than sacred. Women were not equally empowered to be effective evangelists when Christ considered his options.

[Tom]

...Originally posted by Jaguar


What is unique about this "laying on of hands" method is that by doing so the bishop(or bishops gathered for that ordination or consecration) transmit the authority(what we might call the "Holy Spirit") which Jesus imparted to their forebears when He laid His hands upon His Apostles.

Has this tradition been passed on to alter boys?

[Jaguar]

Tom, human nature has a tendency toward evil. When priests do evil things it is upsetting not just to the laity, but to other priests who are faithful to God's laws- especially when children are victims of criminal acts.

You can be certain that those priests who have abused children are well aware of what will come to them- as Jesus said it would be better for a man to have a millstone tied around his neck and be cast into the sea than to suffer the fate which God has in store for child abusers.

All The Best,

Jaguar

[VetScratch]

We gifted $-Billions of our tax dollars to free Kuwaitis who only need to prove ancestry before 1920 to share the proceeds of our generosity. Whether they actually "work" or not, over 90% of these entitled Kuwaitis hold government positions and practically all non-government workers are imported foreign nationals.

The economic policy has been to subsidize entitled Kuwaitis while making massive investments abroad. Kuwaiti income from these foreign investments now exceeds annual income from oil.

For entitled Kuwaitis, income per capita is much higher than U.S. income per capita... so when you allowed politicians to tax you to free Kuwaitis, you merely created a new privileged class that can employ your sons and daughters in multinational enterprises that operate under familiar brand names on Main Street, U.S.A.

In 2015, when a wealthy Iraqi tourist pinches your daughter's ass and tips your son to carry the baggage, you can proudly proclaim that you helped pay for Iraqi freedom in 2003-2005.

[JustRalph]

anybody consider the possiblility that there is no god?

this is just one big biological accident.............

or as George Carlin puts it

"religion is the result of one huckster, thousands of years ago, convincing a group of people that there is a magic dude living in the sky. Look what it has turned into"

[VetScratch]

Jaguar,

BTW, who did Jesus first reveal himself to after the Resurrection?

Mary Magdellan, of course, so he probably foresaw the hierarchy of the Church descending from a High Priestess to the Apostles. I imagine that the Apostles found this unappealing, and started the Catholic tradition of slandering Mary Magdellan, Christ's chosen spiritual heiress!

Tom,

Today's Catholic pedophile issue is trivial compared to the institutionalized immorality that was prevelant during papal dynasties like that administered by the Borgia family.

[VetScratch]

JustRalph,anybody consider the possiblility that there is no god?Is that vacancy advertised like the NYRA monitoring position? :D :D :D

====
I was brought up to believe God lived at Graceland.

[Lefty]

Vet, since I am not a confidante of GW, I can't know why the money was gifted not loaned. But, you think without this war Cheney or Bush any less well off financially? If it was about oil, as
another poster has said Bush could have followed France and kissed saddam's ass. Vet, and the rest of you, it's about safety, OUR safety. I guess by gifting the money Bush feels he can get them on track to their own democracy sooner. I can't know what he's thinking, but unlike my feelings toward Clinton, I trust him.
When there has been a democracy established in Iraq, this Pressident will have accomplished one of the greatest feats of any President.

[VetScratch]

Lefty,

We will be in Iraq until 2020 if you are waiting for a democracy that will last more than the blink of an eye. Where is your example of a successful democracy in the Arab oil world? Iraq has never had a democracy even though it was one of the most advanced Arab countries when the monarchy was overthrown.

Democracy in Iraq is a sound bite pipe dream. You can't enforce democracy with marshall law forever.

Gift versus loan is an action that reveals the political agenda.

[Lefty]

Vet, have you been using amazin's crystal ball?
The gift vs loan reveals political agenda? Hardly. Reveals political strategy and the strategy is a democratic Iraq, in my opinion. Unlike you and amazin, I do not have a crystal ball or access to the dead, so all I can offer is my opinion. No, it's never been done, that's what makes Bush a million times smarter and gutsier than Clinton.
Better change your crystal ball though, think it has a crack in it.

[Lefty]

another thing, don't think we hjave to enforce democracy through marshall law. The fact that the Iraqui's are opening business' all over the place, seems to indicate they want to embrace democracy and capitalism. That puts them ahead of even the liberals in this country who seem to want to embrace socialism.

[VetScratch]

Lefty,
Re-opening businesses is more like it. Many businesses thrive in the Middle East without the benefit of democracy. Capitalism and democracy are not mortally embraced.

[Lefty]

Vet, WHAT? Are you kidding me? There are new businesses opening every day in Iraq. Yeah, I bet during Saddam the business climate was thriving. I bet in the old Soviet Union the business climate was thriving. There are a lot of success stories in a dictatorship. Yeah, right. Geez...

[VetScratch]

PA,
Why did we let the dozens of members of extended bin Laden family leave America without a thorough interrogation?Because they have been our strategic partners in Saudi Arabia since the first Gulf War. The bin Ladens built our military bases, and their selection as our primary contractor was dictated by the Saudi royal family. It's business as usual in the Middle East, and we still do business with the bin Ladens because the Saudi royal family still runs the show.

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by Lefty
Vet, WHAT? Are you kidding me? There are new businesses opening every day in Iraq. Yeah, I bet during Saddam the business climate was thriving. I bet in the old Soviet Union the business climate was thriving. There are a lot of success stories in a dictatorship. Yeah, right. Geez...

Lefty, one of the largest business success stories in a dictatorship is China today.

As to the businesses thriving in Iraq, many are old merchant familes from Hussein's regime, which have controlled Iraq for years.

Often I ponder, what are we doing in Iraq? Liberating people, preventing the proliferation of nuclear weapons. I don’t know for sure. Lately, the message is we are liberating the Iraqi people to establish a democracy. But we are not liberating Cuba which is 90 miles from Key West, nor North Korea, nor China (in fact a communist country which pays workers slave wages and is one of our leading trading partners), nor numerous countries around the world. So the question is what does Iraq hold that these other non-democracies do not. If it is the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, none of these claims have been borne out. In fact, thus far, to the contrary. If it is that Iraq is a harbor for terrorists on 911, why has this not been borne out. In fact most of the terrorists were Saudis, one of our major mid-east allies (which is not a democracy either.

We feel better as a nation that Saddam Hussein has been captured because he was an inhuman tyrant, just as we would if Fidel Castro or Kim Jong-il or Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao was paraded on television. But news of the apparent mastermind of 911 Bin Laden’s capture is greatly exaggerated.

Meanwhile, deals are being cut in Afghanistan with lords to eliminate women from the political process there, while our own personal freedoms are being reduced via Patriot Act I and II recently signed into law, massive securities scandals without CEO or Preseident prosecutions (Enron), our deficit is ballooning, the Pentagon has frozen Iraq contracts due to corruption (http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2003/12/30/pentagon_freezes_iraq_funds_amid_corruption_probes/ )

Yet I admit, people do feel things are going better, that Bush is a person one can trust, despite his stone walling of the 911 commission, his lack of promised investigation into the money trail after 911, or by his endorsment of a Medicare bill that “prohibits” negotiation with drug companies to insure lower costs for prescription drugs, or Amnesty International’s and the Red Cross’s criticism of our hypocrisy by detaining prisoners in Guantanamo Bay in violation of International Law, while we laud Amnesty International’s criticism of Cuba’s human rights to its prisoners.

But we as a nation are now living in fear, and due to 911, national security is paramount. When asked how long this war on terror wil ltake, the answer is “as long as it takes.” Many experts believe this may be perpetual. One wonders if “as long as it takes” can be paid for by ever increasing deficits.

No one on this board would defend Saddam Hussein, but to classify “Bush” as “truthful” or as “one of our greatest presidents” is about the scariest thing I believe I’ve ever heard. Teddy Rooselvelt said “walk softly and carry a big stick”, Bush’s actions seem to be “whack with the big stick and speak loudly.” Perhaps that is our new direction.

[Lefty]

Yeah, and why did Clinton, on three separate occassions let Bin Laden go when he had the chance to get him?
Why don't you Bush Haters let go of all these crazy conspiracy theorys and realize we are much safer now. Everything is going great and you guys can't stand it.= And i'm loving it.

[lsbets]

We do business with the Bin Laden construction company because there are only two companies in the world that are capable of reacting in a hostile environment in the Middle East without a 6 month lead time - Bin Laden and Halliburton (Brown and Root).

As far as the gift vs. loan issue, the purpose is to not saddle the new Iraq with debt so they can use their revenues to rebuild their country rather than repay the US. That is also why Baker went to Europe and Asia to get other nations to forgive some or all of the debt Iraq owed. No evil agenda at hand, just an attempt to make reconstruction easier and not give Iraw the same type of debt that the left wants the west to forgive in every other third world country. Funny how when it comes to Iraq the left is against forgiving foreign debt. Who has the agenda there?

[Lefty]

Why is Bush scary to you? This man has stood up for our country. During Clinton's admin the World Trade Center was attacked. The USS Cole was attacked. Our embassies were attracked. Clinton did nothing. So then due to his inactions the terrorists got brave and brght down the World Trade Center. Bush has captured and killed many of their top men. He has frozen many of their bank accts. He has freed two countries. I'll take that kind of scary.

[lsbets]

Secretariat,

You ask what does Iraq have that Cuba, China, and North Korea don't have. Yes, oil is one thing, but there is something else - terrorists. When we get attacked by Chinese, North Korean, or Cuban terrorists, then we should strike back. But, news flash - We were attacked by Muslim terrorists, and we have taken steps across the Muslim world to stem the tide of terror. Iraq is only a campaign in the overall war, not a seperate war in itself. A message has been sent, that if you mess with us, you will get whacked with the big stick. Bush wasn't waving it around before 9/11, but he is using it now, as he should.

[Lefty]

I agree that since 911 our world has changed. We have come to realize that we are not safe. That's certainly not Bush's fault. Now if one of those "let's appease the world" Dems gets elected we truly will not be safe.

[VetScratch]

Lsbets,As far as the gift vs. loan issue, the purpose is to not saddle the new Iraq with debt so they can use their revenues to rebuild their country rather than repay the U.S.The purpose must be weighed against the consequences. There is no hope that Iraq will become a U.S. ally embedded in the Middle East. Meanwhile, the gift becomes our national debt that present and future American taxpayers will pay interest on for many years to come. In all probability, the new Iraq will spawn more exported terrorism than under Saddam, who was so paranoid that he didn't even trust other ruthless criminals.

First it was WMDs.

Then Saddam.

Now democracy in Iraq?

You guys are smoking something that you are not sharing! :) :)

[lsbets]

VS,

Would you handicap a race that had never been run before that had no prior races under conditions even resembling those of the new race on which to base your handicapping decisions? You would probably pass, but you are doing the opposite here. You say in all probablility and there is no hope, yet what is happenning now in Iraq has never, NEVER, been tried in the Middle East before. We could look at where new democracies have been tried in other countries, but Eastern Europeans are not Arabs, so it is hard to use them as a basis to compare. We could look at Japan after WWII, or the constant struggle in S. Korea to establish and maintain a democracy. Those nations would not offer good insight either.

I get a kick out of the fact that you sound so sure of yourself when the reality is you have nothing to base your assertions on. This has never been tried before. I will at least admit that I do not know if it will work, but we need to try and make it work.

[Derek2U]

hehe .. its vCool of u 2 relate this political stuff 2 capping. LEFTY
& BOXCAR r 2 guys who should b banished by PA (& others 2)
cause there not really cappers but Bush ass suckers who go
2 many many sites 2 cause dissension. so i say, GO AWAY DEMONS. I CAST U to PITTSBURGH.

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by lsbets
Secretariat,

You ask what does Iraq have that Cuba, China, and North Korea don't have. Yes, oil is one thing, but there is something else - terrorists. When we get attacked by Chinese, North Korean, or Cuban terrorists, then we should strike back. But, news flash - We were attacked by Muslim terrorists, and we have taken steps across the Muslim world to stem the tide of terror. Iraq is only a campaign in the overall war, not a seperate war in itself. A message has been sent, that if you mess with us, you will get whacked with the big stick. Bush wasn't waving it around before 9/11, but he is using it now, as he should.

You associate Iraq with terrorists despite no Iraqi was a part of 911 (again primarily Saudis), and no proof has ever been established that Iraq was exporting terror to strike against the US despite numerous attempts to justify in that regard. I notice you state we were attacked by Muslim, not Iraqi terroists. Using your logic we should be attacking all Muslim countries (i.e. Syria, Iran, Pakistan, etc.) Certainly President Bush doesn't justify that since we live in a nation where freedom of religion is a first amendment right. You state Iraq is a "campaign" in the overall war. I'm curious. Is this the war on terror, the war on WMD's, the war to liberate all nations and transform them into democracies?

[hcap]

The origin of this thread was the black and white "views" of a General Hawley. Although this "story" really originated at The Weekly Standard, a neocon publication, this story still made the rounds on the web as though the fine General was spouting an "absolute" TRUTH.

This is the crux of the problem-our perception of historical and political "TRUTH" . We all come at this dilema individually with huge piles of assumptions and particular mindsets. The majority of Americans do not get their information from media outlets that are not beholden to the multi nationals and our government, most of which is bought and paid for by those same mega corporations. "Truth in Advertising" should apply to the media as well as Madison avenue.
The PR induustry has found a new home in the media and government The problem has always been "garbage in, garbage out"

Oil is, and has been THE driving force behind various colonial adventures.
Control of oil is more important than how much you may have in custody at any one time. The geopolitics of the Caspian and middle east regions have been in play since the origins of the British Empire. It was known by all players as "The Great Game"..

If oil has nothing to do with the U.S. intervening in Iraq, then why hasn’t the U.S. intervened in Sudan, where 2 million Christians have been killed during the past decade? What about the persecution of Christians in Indonesia? Why hasn’t the U.S. intervened in Zimbabwe, where the Marxist tyrant Robert Mugabe has been confiscating the country’s farmland? Why has Fidel Castro – 90 miles away from our shores – been untouched for 40 years? Why didn’t the U.S. instigate a "regime change" when Idi Amin was killing thousands of his own black people in Uganda in the 1970s? Why didn’t the U.S. instigate a "regime change" when the Tutsis were slaughtered by the Hutu government of Rwanda in 1994? Would things have been different if Sudan, Indonesia, Zimbabwe, Cuba, Uganda, and Rwanda had significant oil reserves?

If, as Bush says, Saddam acted as a "Hitler" while "gassing his own people," during the 1980s, we were fully aware and implicitly approving, via economic and military aid, of his most nefarious deeds. Saddam's crimes were committed on our watch, when he was a U.S. ally, and we knowingly looked the other way.

It may not be quite as evil as JustRalph points out--"Saddam Husseins son kidnaps a political enemy and has him fed into a Wood Chipper while he is alive and kicking.,that is absolute evil no matter how you perceive it.
But winking at evil and enabling evil is
part of our history.

[VetScratch]

Hcap,
If we reset to the beginning of this thread, I notice that no one has asked whether General Hawley's fictitious speech was planted here and applauded as a conspiracy among unscrupulous rabble rousers! :D :D :D :D

[VetScratch]

Frankly, I smelled right-wing conspiracy when Bill Clinton's credibility was questioned.

Bill simply defined sex as a three-way with Maggie Thatcher and Madonna while Hillary watches and Lyle Lovett sings "Stand By Your Man."

Obviously, those who think of Bill as a sophist or Hillary as a fool are easy marks for the words Cheney puts in Bush's mouth.

[hcap]

Vet
Does sound like another chapter in right wing conspiracies.
Maybe some of us are on the Weekly Standard's payroll??- but not to worry.
Paranoia is not to be feared

"Communism is like one big phone company."
-- Lenny Bruce
"Military intelligence is a contradiction in terms."
-- Groucho Marx
"No, that's just perfectly normal paranoia. Everyone in the Universe has that."
---Douglas Adams
the "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy,"
And
"I envy paranoids; they actually feel people are paying attention to them."
--Susan Sontag

:cool: :cool:

[hcap]

The new Great Game

The 'war on terror' is being used as an excuse to further US energy interests in the Caspian
Monday October 20, 2003
The Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1066570,00.html

"In this rerun of the first great game - the 19th-century imperial rivalry between the British Empire and Tsarist Russia - players once again position themselves to control the heart of the Eurasian landmass. Today, the US has taken over the leading role from the British. Along with the Russians, new regional powers, such as China, Iran, Turkey and Pakistan, have entered the arena, and transnational oil corporations are also pursuing their own interests.

The main spoils in today's Great Game are Caspian oil and gas. On its shores, and at the bottom of the Caspian Sea, lie the world's biggest untapped fossil fuel resources. Estimates range from 110 to 243bn barrels of crude, worth up to $4 trillion. According to the US department of energy, Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan alone could sit on more than 130bn barrels, more than three times the US's reserves. Oil giants such as ExxonMobil, ChevronTexaco and BP have already invested more than $30bn in new production facilities. "

"I cannot think of a time when we have had a region emerge as suddenly to become as strategically significant as the Caspian," said Dick Cheney in a speech to oil industrialists in 1998. In May 2001, the US vice-president recommended in the national energy policy report that "the president makes energy security a priority of our trade and foreign policy", singling out the Caspian basin as a "rapidly growing new area of supply".

Besides raising the spectre of inter-state conflict, the Bush administration is wooing some of the region's most tyrannical dictators. One of them is Islam Karimov, the ex-communist ruler of Uzbekistan, whose regime brutally suppresses any opposition and Islamic groups. "Such people must be shot in the head. If necessary, I will shoot them myself," Karimov once told his rubber-stamp parliament.

Although the US state department acknowledges that Uzbek security forces use "torture as a routine investigation technique", Washington last year gave the Karimov regime $500m in aid and rent payments for the US air base in Chanabad. The state department also quietly removed Uzbekistan from its annual list of countries where freedom of religion is under threat. The British government seems to support Washington's policy, as Whitehall recently recalled its ambassador Craig Murray from Tashkent after he openly decried Uzbekistan's abysmal human rights record.

Worse is to come: disgusted with the US's cynical alliances with their corrupt and despotic rulers, the region's impoverished populaces increasingly embrace virulent anti-Americanism and militant Islam. As in Iraq, America's brazen energy imperialism in Central Asia jeopardises the few successes in the war on terror because the resentment it causes makes it ever easier for terrorist groups to recruit angry young men. It is all very well to pursue oil interests, but is it worth mortgaging our security to do so?

Winking at, and enabling evil, no woodchipper needed
hcap

[VetScratch]

Lsbets,
We do business with the Bin Laden construction company because there are only two companies in the world that are capable of reacting in a hostile environment in the Middle East without a 6 month lead time - Bin Laden and Halliburton (Brown and Root).So while rebuilding Iraq in the hostile environment of the Middle East, we can expect the Bin Ladens and Halliburton to suck up $-Billions of our gifted tax dollars... but who was the Halliburton CEO between the two Bush administrations? Cheney, of course, and he is now GW's CEO.

[lsbets]

VS,

Does that mean we should do business with no one? Give a friggin break - when another company comes along nprepared to do the job - use em. There is no one else. I think Larry was right about his Mars post.

[VetScratch]

Do you think Cheney or the Saudi royal family will be inclined to support other companies? Add Schlumberger to the Bin Ladens and Halliburton, and you have accounted for the main beneficiaries of our tax dollars appropriated to rebuild Iraq.

You boys have been duped!

[lsbets]

So what companies should we use? You can't answer that question and you won't even try, and therein lies my answer - you know not of what you speak.

[hcap]

Let the Iraquis rebuild Iraq. They will do it cheaper, capitol will flow directly into Iraqui hands and what better way to learn about "The American Way".

I am suprised that repubs don't believe in local economies over centralized planning

[lsbets]

Hcap -

Good idea, some points:

1) BRSC hires locals.
2) The Army has been awarding construction contracts to local firms all over Iraq, and one of the challenges has been in dealing with tribal chiefs who might not be the lowest bidder, but who carry a ton of clout with the people. It is a delicate balance, but is happenning everyday. Too bad the Guardian doesn't talk about that.

In terms of BRSC - someone has to get things started and needs expertise in the areas being worked on. We can't start from scratch. Plus, we will (and should) only give base support contracts to American firms - a competitive bidding process that occurs every three years to cover any contingency operations which might occur. BRSC (Halliburton) won the contract. They will probably win it again. They are damned good at what they do, far better than the only other company I have seen do the work. That is a fact that you libs choose to ignore because it doesn't suit your agenda. Back to the perception thing again.

[hcap]

Isbets

It seems like a boondongle already.
[list=1] To be honest," says Ed Kubba, a consultant and board member of the American Iraqi Chamber of Commerce, "I don't know where the line is between business and corruption." He points to US companies subcontracting huge taxpayer-funded reconstruction jobs for a fraction of what they are getting paid, then pocketing the difference. "If you take $10 million from the US government and sub the job out to Iraqi businesses for a quarter-million, is that business, or is that corruption?"
"U.S. contractors are importing labor and expatriating the benefits," complained one Iraqi construction manager to the Financial Times. "Where's the benefit accruing to Iraq?"
Unemployment is rampant in post-war Iraq, with an estimated 7 million Iraqis out of work.
Workers for the Saudi-based Tamimi Company, which was contracted by Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg Brown and Root to provide food service for U.S. troops and administrators, live in temporary housing on the site of the Baghdad palace. The workers are paid three dollars per day and get time off once every two years.
Kellogg Brown and Root received an over two billion dollar open-ended contract from the U.S. for subcontracting in Iraq.[/list=1]

Okay where is oversight and accountability? Maybe you're right and the Guardian has only got part of it, meanwhile the PENTAGON says

Fri 2 January, 2004 08:30
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. military says it will soon take over Halliburton's role of getting fuel into Iraq, a decision that follows a draft Pentagon audit that found Vice President Dick Cheney's old firm may have overcharged for the job.

The Pentagon's Defense Energy Support Center said on Wednesday it had expanded its traditional mandate of providing fuel to the U.S. military and would now be responsible for importing and distributing fuel products to the Iraqi people.

The DESC was asked several months ago to look into taking over the job, a request that became more urgent after a preliminary Pentagon audit this month found evidence KBR may have overcharged U.S. taxpayers $61 million to supply fuel to Iraq via Kuwait.

[VetScratch]

In my experience, backside rumors turn out to be true more often than any other off-the-record source of news. Horsemen at Ascot claim the Iraqi invasion and reconstruction were casually planned over cocktails between races in 2002. In addition to two members of Blair's cabinet, other racegoers in the conspiracy were reportedly Cheney, Rice, Gould (Schlumberger), three sons of Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah Bin Abdul Aziz, and two of the many Bin Laden brothers who have publically castigated Osama.

From what I also heard, Condoleezza Rice was the only big winner among the group, but her handicapping skills have never been questioned.

[lsbets]

Oh my God - the invasion was planned, and by members of our government. That should never have happenned, we should have improvised and made it up as we went along, and should have let it be lead by people not involved in national security.

[Tom]

Originally posted by hcap
Let the Iraquis rebuild Iraq. They will do it cheaper, capitol will flow directly into Iraqui hands and what better way to learn about "The American Way".

I am suprised that repubs don't believe in local economies over centralized planning

I agree 100% with you. Keep them busy. We have bigger fish to kill. According to All-gibbeirish, the Islamic version of the NY Times,
Bin Laden is threatening holy war. Let all those who do not know it yet, ......"you are either with us or against us."

Iran......can you spell "next?" Now is the perfect time to take them out...they are busy murdering thier own by refusing outside help...so, what will be will be. One more heathen state to take down.

Vet was right-we have no friends in the middle east. And who wants any? Not me. The palestine/arab world has, thorughout my whole lifetime been running amouck committing terroist act around the world - the 72 olympics, the Achielle Luro cruise ship, on and on and on. They have been desperately tryingh to send a message to world. I have received the message loud and clear. It is now time to respond. We are in a holy war....it is time to act like it. Thank GOD it was BUSH not GORE.
It would have been even better if it had been Michael Savage, but 2008 is coming.......

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[PaceAdvantage]

VS always sounds sure of herself, no matter what she talks about. She's an expert on everything.....don't you know?

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by lsbets
So what companies should we use? You can't answer that question and you won't even try, and therein lies my answer - you know not of what you speak.

Maybe the Boston Globe does:

Pentagon freezes Iraq funds amid corruption probes
By Stephen J. Glain, Globe Staff, 12/30/2003
WASHINGTON -- The Pentagon has frozen new funds approved for Iraqi reconstruction amid growing allegations of corruption and cronyism associated with the rebuilding process.

Companies eager for a stake in the $18.6 billion in fresh postwar funds that Congress approved in November have been told not to expect requests for proposals from the Defense Department, the first step in the kind of ambitious redevelopment slated for the war-torn country. The freeze will almost certainly mean the United States will not issue new contracts until well after the initial Feb. 1 target date.

"We're on hold and we'll be on hold until we hear differently," Admiral David Nash, the director of the Pentagon's Iraq Program Management Office, yesterday told the Engineering News-Record, a construction trade journal. He gave no further details.

The Pentagon also announced last week it would postpone until early January a conference for companies interested in rebuilding Iraq, according to Robyn Powell of the National Defense Industrial Association, which coordinates meetings between industry and the military.

"I don't know why the conference has been canceled again," Powell told Reuters.

The Pentagon's decision to delay Iraqi reconstruction is another setback for a process already hobbled by political insecurity and, increasingly, concerns over corruption and misconduct. The success of the US-led bid to remake Iraq politically depends largely on efforts to reverse the country's chronic unemployment by repairing it economically. But lawmakers in Washington and businesspeople in Iraq say the bidding process lacks transparency and favors a growing class of monopolists and oligarchs that could overwhelm the country's infant regulatory framework.

"Everyone is focusing on the capture of Saddam Hussein," said Laith Kubba, a former Iraqi dissident who divides his time between Washington, London, and Iraq. "But with Saddam gone the most important thing is the country's political and economic transformation, and that is being held hostage by vested interests."

Bids for 26 contracts were to be submitted by Jan. 5. But that date has been postponed indefinitely.
Meanwhile, the Pentagon announced Dec. 18 that it would investigate a controversial contract for an Iraqi cellphone grid, the second such probe into Iraq-related reconstruction.

For weeks, Iraqi businesspeople and officials had been calling for an investigation into the three telephone contracts worth hundreds of millions of dollars that the US-led coalition awarded in October to three Arab consortia. Work on the networks, considered crucial to the rebuilding of Iraq, should have been well underway by now and service set to be up and running by spring. Construction has not yet begun.

The cellphone probe followed by one week a Pentagon investigation into whether Brown & Root Services overcharged by $61 million for fuel it brought into Iraq from Kuwait. Brown & Root, a subsidiary of Halliburton Co., the oil giant Vice President Dick Cheney once chaired, is doing a variety of petroleum-related work in Iraq under a no-bid contract the government issued in March. The company has denied any wrongdoing.
The investigations highlight the need, according to lawmakers and businesspeople, for a credible watchdog authority to keep an eye on how money for reconstruction, dominated by Halliburton and engineering giant Bechtel Group, is spent.

The Washington office of the Coalition Provisional Authority, the US-led organization in charge of the Iraqi occupation, did not return calls for comment.

Since it was ruled under the Ottoman Empire more than a century ago, the Iraqi economy has been dominated by a dozen or so merchant families. These clans, active in everything from farming to finance, survived the Hussein regime with their fortunes more or less intact. With Iraqi business still desperate for cash, the big merchant families are bankrolling smaller companies bidding for rebuilding work in exchange for a share of profits.
"All of this is going on under the surface," attorney Timothy Mills, who was active in the rehabilitation of former east bloc economies, said in congressional testimony last month after returning from Iraq. "We don't see it and the US government doesn't see it. All they see is the price."

The US government and the International Finance Corp., the lending arm of the World Bank, say they have made available hundreds of millions of dollars for small to mid-sized businesses in Iraq. In addition to new sources of capital, Iraqi businesspeople say they want enhanced oversight and regulation over the subcontracting process to prevent larger players from tilting the awards in their favor.

"Otherwise, the next round of bidding is going to be more corrupt than the first," said an Iraqi consultant to US telecommunications companies with offices in Baghdad and Washington. "The clans have always done this, but now it's a hundred times worse."

Stephen J. Glain can be reached at glain@globe.com.
© Copyright 2003 Globe Newspaper Company.

[lsbets]

Secretariat - nice article, but it did not answer the question that I asked - what companies should we use?

I always tell my soldiers - its your right to bitch, but if you are going to bitch to me don't waste my time. Bring me a solution.

[Amazin]

Boxcar quote:"In summary, then, there are no parallels between the "natural" phenomenon of an earthquake and, consequently, the loss of lives and the immoral acts of a sinful man who murdered (or ordered the murder) of other human beings..."

Evil is in the eye of the beholder.

Do you know why you were born or why you live and die?How you die is not up to you,just like your birth.As a matter of fact,this isn't your show at all.So whether you die from an eathquake or die from a murderer,your life has been scripted by the same author.That's the parallel.

[lousycapperII]

Originally posted by Tom
I It would have been even better if it had been Michael Savage, but 2008 is coming.......

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Mr. Tom,

:) Mr. Savage would be a bad choice, simply because he's a psychotic nincompoop. My first choice would be General "Everything's under control" your pal, Al Haig. That's provided he's learn how to walk and chew gum at the same time. :)

-LCII

[lousycapperII]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
VS always sounds sure of herself, no matter what she talks about. She's an expert on everything.....don't you know?

:) I'd swear she was my older sister. Ms. VS, with her flowery verbiage, should sit down and write the great American novel, est id, if she hasn't done it already. :) LOL

-LCII

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by lsbets
Secretariat - nice article, but it did not answer the question that I asked - what companies should we use?

I always tell my soldiers - its your right to bitch, but if you are going to bitch to me don't waste my time. Bring me a solution.

You miss the point. The point is that a competitive bidding process insures there is no indication of cronyism or corruption while assuring that taxpayers get the best bang for the buck. When there is no bidding these kind of questions arise. If you want possible competitors though, here are a few:

Bechtel, Fluor, the Parsons Group, Schlumberger, Foster Wheeler

Even if Bechtel bid against Halliburton we'd have competition and probably a better accounting. When there's only one firm awarded a contract without bidding taxpayers lose, and it looks even worse when the benefiting companies former CEO is the Vice President. Perhaps Halliburton would have been best for the job, but no other companies were given the opportunity to challenge that.

And from reading the Globe article you can see the Pentagon has been less than satisfied with the overcharging issue with Halliburton.

[VetScratch]

PA,Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
VS always sounds sure of herself, no matter what she talks about. She's an expert on everything.....don't you know? You're finally reaching for the right hymn book! :)

Your earlier post wondering why bin Laden relatives were not detained after 9/11 may find its way into the next Nataional Security Committee meeting. While they wait for Bush, Rumsfield keeps the gang loose with his marvelous Donald Duck voice impersonations, usually reading naive Internet posts from folks who have no clue. When the door opens, Bush often finds them rolling on the floor with laughter.

[Lefty]

Vet, yeah, racetrack rumors always reliable. That's why i've always done so well with trainer and owner tips. NOT!

Amazin, Our lives are scripted? You don't believe in free choice?
I think a lot of dead pedestrians thought the same thing here in Vegas. I invite you to Vegas to go jaywalking on Lake Mead Blvd or any busy street and see how long you last? You get sillier all the time.
Hey, don't worry about murderers and dictators and traffic cause it's all scripted. Poppycock!

Then why do you call soldiers and Bush murderers? After all, it's scripted. Ypu're not consistent, my man.

[boxcar]

The Maze writes:

Evil is in the eye of the beholder.

Bravo! Spoken like a true moral relativist. Good thing you're not in charge of administering divine justice.

Our Inquisitive Maze continues:

Do you know why you were born or why you live and die?

Yes and Yes! And...I even know why I die. You, too, would know the answers to these "cosmic riddles" if you spent more time reading, studying and contemplating the message of the Good Book instead of wasting your time away writing on forums about things of which of you know little or nothing.

Finally, The Maze sums up with:

How you die is not up to you,just like your birth.As a matter of fact,this isn't your show at all.So whether you die from an eathquake or die from a murderer,your life has been scripted by the same author.That's the parallel.

Ahh...how true. But this doesn't change the fact that we mere mortals are still held morally responsible for our actions. The truth is very simply this: HOW we die makes all the difference in the world to the "author" and to all civilized societies. Again, socieities don't prosecute natural disasters, but they they do prosecute illegal and immoral actions of their citizens -- including murder.

Boxcar

[VetScratch]

Originally posted by lsbets
Secretariat - nice article, but it did not answer the question that I asked - what companies should we use?

I always tell my soldiers - its your right to bitch, but if you are going to bitch to me don't waste my time. Bring me a solution. We should come home because re-construction may be the one battle we cannot win. Royal families, clerical dynasties, tribal hierarchies, merchant clans, and centuries of Mid-East corruption ensure that 80% of our tax dollars will never be translated into tangible results that will help the average Iraqi.

After $100-billion or more has been spent (as a gift), children of the Iraqi poor will still be reciting anti-American hate propaganda in quasi-religious classes, we will be viewed as the architects of the next generation of oppressive rule in Iraq, and it will still cost only a few $-million to plan and execute another 9/11 disaster.

Hunting down and killing international terrorists is one aspect of bolstering domestic security, but re-molding nations and re-shaping religions by military intervention are futile endeavors. What worked in post-war Japan would fail in today's world because geographic containment and suppression of political factions and opposition propaganda are no longer possible.

The money would be better spent along our own borders and within our domestic security programs.

[Lefty]

Vet, looks like can't is a big part of your vocabulary. We were once told man can't fly byt those pesky Wright Bros. did it anyway.
We are succeeding in Iraq. If that bothers you and the dems and the libs, well, too bad. We are doing the right thing.

[Tom]

1775....Fed up with abuse of power by the English crown, a small band of rag-tag country bumkins power up thier muskets and take on the most powerfull army the world had ever know at that time. What the hell could a bunch of ill-equiped, untrained, amatures do against mighty Brittish war machine?
Guess what........

1941- Our navy was all but destroyed, the japs were thoroughtly entrenced in the far eastern hemisphere. They were in war nmode and were already rolling over everyone in thier way.
Hitler was similarly storming through Europe, had taken France, was threatening Brittian, had war-factories humming and controlled all access points to even get onto the continent.

Poor ole Uncle Sam.....his boats wouldn't float, his factories were truning out cars and trucks, his "army" was still in school, craming for mid-terms.

What could we do we COULDN'T beat those odds.

Guess what.......



1960.....President Kennedy makes a remark in a speech that we should send a man to the moon and bring him safetly back by the end of the decade. Less than 10 years to accomplish this! What kind of a moron makes a stupid statement like that?
Guess what.....1969.....One small step for man one giant leap for mankind.

1990...Sadamm Hussein marches what many consider to the be 4th most power army in the world into Kuwait and conquers them.
We will have a tough time getting this devil out of Kuwait, his army is fierce and we may have a very hard time when he unleashes his republican guard.

Well, ya got me there,,,,when his "army marhed on us, they damn near shut us down cold.....there were so many soldiers surrendering, we had to resort to letting media representatives take prisoners for us.

9-11-2001....out of the blue, an attack by madmen, by evil itself.
What could we do? those terrorists were thoroughtly entrenched in Afghanistan and even the mighty Soviet Union tasted defeat when they spend 10 years trying to defeat this counry.

Guess what.......

Since before we were a nation, people have been sitting around complaining that we "can't".....they don't get too much argument by most people because they are too busy doing it.

Guess what.....we can, and we do.

In spite of the liberal anchors we have to deal with.

[Amazin]

IN response to my post Boxcar writesAhh...how true. But this doesn't change the fact that we mere mortals are still held morally responsible for our actions. The truth is very simply this: HOW we die makes all the difference in the world to the "author" and to all civilized societies. Again, socieities don't prosecute natural disasters, but they they do prosecute illegal and immoral actions of their citizens -- including murder.

For once I sort of agree with a statement by you.The problem is can you recognize the truth?Throughout history,those that have preached the truth in spiritual matters or science have been persecuted and portrayed as evil,while their oppressors get away with murder and portray themselves as the good and just.

[Tom]

Do you consider Hussein and Bin Laden as "victims?
How many people live free today because of the sacrifices and the courage of the arab world?
How many people have survived natural disators and live today because of the generosity of the islamic community?
Did Jesus ever tell his apostles to strap on a bomb and go forth and spread My word?
There is evil in this world, there are those who are in league with the devil, and seek to destroy instead of build.
If it isn't clear which world is which, let give you a clue.....it is them!

[Amazin]

Tom QuoteDo you consider Hussein and Bin Laden as "victims?

I consider those two scapegoats for the invasion and conquering of specific foreign countries which was the true motivation of our government before you ever even heard of their names.

[kenwoodallpromos]

All nations want to expand. And religions. That includes the "scapegoats" in case you did not notice!!

[boxcar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Amazin
IN response to my post Boxcar writes[b]Ahh...how true. But this doesn't change the fact that we mere mortals are still held morally responsible for our actions. The truth is very simply this: HOW we die makes all the difference in the world to the "author" and to all civilized societies. Again, socieities don't prosecute natural disasters, but they they do prosecute illegal and immoral actions of their citizens -- including murder

For once I sort of agree with a statement by you.The problem is can you recognize the truth?

This is only a "problem" to Skeptics like yourself. You remind me of Pontius Pilate who just before sentencing Jesus to death, sarcastically asked him:

"What is truth?" (Jn. 18:38b)

What prompted this question was Jesus' take on "truth" to wit:

John 18:37-38
37 Pilate therefore said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."
NAS

Note very carefully the kind of person it is who hears the truth.

Throughout history,those that have preached the truth in spiritual matters or science have been persecuted and portrayed as evil,while their oppressors get away with murder and portray themselves as the good and just.

So what else is new? Evil people always seem to think very highly of themselves, don't they? Didn't Hussein, in his feeble self-defense of killing thousands, put the blame squarely on the victims' heads by saying that they were thieves and enemies of the state, etc. The Wicked always like to call good evil and evil good.

Boxcar

[VetScratch]

C'mon, Tom, you give us comic book descriptions of success.

It impossible to know how history might have unfolded if we had remained part of the British Empire. However, who can say that a worldwide Pax Britannica might not have evolved and persist to this day. In any case, historians confirm that Americans in 1775 were divided on roughly even terms between rebels and royalists.

In 1941, the best minds in Japan, including the commanding admiral of the Pearl Harbor attack fleet, were opposed to war with the United States... Japan was no match for the U.S.

Many scientists opposed the "man on the moon" crusade because an equal commitment to unmanned missions would have yielded more scientific value, whereas the "manned" approach catered to cold war propaganda objectives.

Since 1948, we have poured funds into the Middle East without finding a path to peace or winning the hearts and minds of the Muslim population.

[lousycapperII]

http://users.chartertn.net/tonytemplin/FBI_eyes

LOL

-LCII

[Amazin]

Boxcar quoteSo what else is new? Evil people always seem to think very highly of themselves, don't they? Didn't Hussein, in his feeble self-defense of killing thousands.....

Apparently you are still having trouble recognizing the truth. I don't see the name GWB anywhere in your list of murderers. He should be at the top.Do you honestly think JC would condone his actions of killing thousands of innocent Afghanistans and Iraqi's in the name of Peace?What Peace? As Jesus would say,I pity you.

[Lefty]

amazin, guess it's been lost on you that Afghanistan, the other day ratified a Constitition. That would never have been done without GW Bush sendoing in the troops to rout Bin Ladin and his thugs.

Hussein, and Bin Ladin scapegoats? Boy you are something. I don't see how with all the hate you exhibet for this county how you can even stand being amongst us "heathens"

[Amazin]

It's Bush who exhibits his hatred towards the world.

[Lefty]

amazin, c'mon. Get rid of that 5 yr old mentality. You say two evil men are scapegoats and a man committed to keeping the U.S. safe from terrorists and along the way has freed two countries and brought Kadafe in line and now N. Korea wants to talk about suspending its nuke prgm and you have the audacity to call this man a murderer? There is something seriously wrong with you.
Go join the Taliban then "badmouth" Bin Ladin and see how long your "poor misunderstood hero" lets you live.

[Derek2U]

AMAZIN U have done the UnThinkable. U've made me side w/ the
universe's 2 badBrain bookends: Lefty & BoxCar. I coulda liked
U but now, I gotta burn some incense & cell phone Budha.

[VetScratch]

If Kuwait had no oil, we would have brushed off the Iraqi invasion as just another of the endless Mid-East border disputes (like the simmering dispute between Turkey and Iraq).

If Iraq had no oil, Saddam's ruthless regime would be no different than countless other dictatorships and monarchies that we have sometimes supported and at other times tried to topple via covert operations.

If the oil was in North Korea instead of the Mid-East, our tanks would be in Pyongyang instead of Baghdad.

[VetScratch]

From the classifieds in the Financial Times:

Bankrupt strife-torn nation of tribal factions needs ruthless dictator, experienced terrorists, and WMD scientists to attract U.S. invasion and post-war aid.

[Figman]

The Bush daughters took their lumps in the press. Why does Howard Dean's son get a free ride in the national press? This is from the current issue of THE NEW YORKER magazine.....but I haven't seen it anywhere else!

A rare candid—and quite grim—Dean family snapshot appeared on page 1 of the August 6th edition of the Burlington Free Press last summer. It captured Howard and Judy Dean and their seventeen-year-old son, Paul, as they arrived, the previous day, for an appointment in Costello Courthouse, in downtown Burlington. They had gone there to meet with a staff member of a court diversion program for youthful offenders—the youthful offense in question being Paul’s participation several weeks earlier in the burglary of beer, champagne, and other spirits, worth a total of $549.88, from a storage shed at the Burlington Country Club, one of those indiscretions that tend not to delight Mom and Dad even when Dad isn’t running for President. One mitigating circumstance—that Paul had not actually burgled but merely driven the car that transported four of his pals and the hooch from the scene of the crime—was deemed moot by the authorities. His misfeasance earned him many hours of community service, something to add (or perhaps not) to his résumé, along with his sterling high-school transcript and superb hockey skills.

Shortly after Paul’s arrest, Dean officially kicked off his Presidential campaign. By far the most unscripted, and least comfortable, moment of that day occurred when Dean was asked how he planned to win over the same Democratic Party leaders he’d been criticizing for months. Once they really get to know me, he said, they’ll come around. Then he quipped a quip he immediately wished he hadn’t: “It is a bit of a club down there. The Democratic Party, all the candidates from Washington, they all know each other, they all move in the same circles, and what I’m doing is breaking into the country club.” He winced and added, “That was an incredibly unfortunate phrase,” then turned to an aide and asked, “Why do I say these things

[Lefty]

And what do you drive? I love you gas guzzling comfort seeking liberals and assorted other nuts who rail against oil.
Your mantra getting most tiresome.

[VetScratch]

I hope no one missed the Sixty Minutes report on Turkmenistan and demigod dictator Serdar Turkmenbashi.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/31/60minutes/main590913.shtml

By virtue of having the world's largest natural gas reserves and operating a lucrative drug tollway, Turkmenbashi has elevated himself to candidacy for a membership in the Cheney New World Order, which recently dispatched Donald Rumsfield to court Turkmenbashi, a dictator so brazen that he officially renamed the calendar months after his family members and has elevated his Ruhnama spiritual guide above the Muslim Koran (Qur'an).

:D :D :D :D

[Amazin]

Lefty

I have something called a conscious.I cannot justify the killing of innocent civilians for anything, let alone questionable intentions. I dont see this life as and end in itself ,but rather as a stop on an infinite journey.

When you die and your spirit comes into contact with other spirits whose bodies died as a result of your American ideal,I don't think you will be feeling the same way you feel now.Instead you will be crying a river over your illusion that you could justify killing people for a "cause"There's only one cause on this planet and that ain't it.

[VetScratch]

Reality Check

Ok... now this is fun, but please confirm that this is just entertainment.

We come in, pick a side (or both sides), then start posting progressively extreme nonsense until we are exhausted, then someone starts a new thread. That is what this is, right?

I ask because this kind of role playing would be harmful to real lunatics who might think genuine passions and beliefs are being expressed.

As a reality check, let's pick up all the tokens and assume that any posts after this one are crys for help from real people who don't know that this is a fantasy game.

Ready, set, go!

[Lefty]

amazin, you sure you are not a 5yr old playing with dad's computer? You can't justify freeing an unfree people and protecting ourselves at the same time? You can't justify bringing terrorists to justice that killed 3,000 innocent human beings in this country? Afghanistan just ratified a consitution. They think it was worth it. If you truly had a mature adult conscience, you would realize there are things that must be balanced.
As you told Boxcar, I pity you. You are not a mature man, just a mighty confused one. And you have picked the wrong side. Remember in a long past thread I urged you to rent the movie Shenendoah, starring Jimmy Stewart? I double urge you to visit or revisit that movie. Comes a time when a man has to pick a side and comes a time when killing is necessary.

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by VetScratch
I hope no one missed the Sixty Minutes report on Turkmenistan and demigod dictator Serdar Turkmenbashi.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/31/60minutes/main590913.shtml

By virtue of having the world's largest natural gas reserves and operating a lucrative drug tollway, Turkmenbashi has elevated himself to candidacy for a membership in the Cheney New World Order, which recently dispatched Donald Rumsfield to court Turkmenbashi, a dictator so brazen that he officially renamed the calendar months after his family members and has elevated his Ruhnama spiritual guide above the Muslim Koran (Qur'an).

:D :D :D :D

Great post. Here's another interesting link about the unethical support of oil at all costs.

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040112&s=ireland

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by Figman
The Bush daughters took their lumps in the press. Why does Howard Dean's son get a free ride in the national press? This is from the current issue of THE NEW YORKER magazine.....but I haven't seen it anywhere else!

A rare candid—and quite grim—Dean family snapshot appeared on page 1 of the August 6th edition of the Burlington Free Press last summer. It captured Howard and Judy Dean and their seventeen-year-old son, Paul, as they arrived, the previous day, for an appointment in Costello Courthouse, in downtown Burlington. They had gone there to meet with a staff member of a court diversion program for youthful offenders—the youthful offense in question being Paul’s participation several weeks earlier in the burglary of beer, champagne, and other spirits, worth a total of $549.88, from a storage shed at the Burlington Country Club, one of those indiscretions that tend not to delight Mom and Dad even when Dad isn’t running for President. One mitigating circumstance—that Paul had not actually burgled but merely driven the car that transported four of his pals and the hooch from the scene of the crime—was deemed moot by the authorities. His misfeasance earned him many hours of community service, something to add (or perhaps not) to his résumé, along with his sterling high-school transcript and superb hockey skills.

Shortly after Paul’s arrest, Dean officially kicked off his Presidential campaign. By far the most unscripted, and least comfortable, moment of that day occurred when Dean was asked how he planned to win over the same Democratic Party leaders he’d been criticizing for months. Once they really get to know me, he said, they’ll come around. Then he quipped a quip he immediately wished he hadn’t: “It is a bit of a club down there. The Democratic Party, all the candidates from Washington, they all know each other, they all move in the same circles, and what I’m doing is breaking into the country club.” He winced and added, “That was an incredibly unfortunate phrase,” then turned to an aide and asked, “Why do I say these things

I agree Figman. I wish the press had not brought the Bush daughters into it, and I am hopeful they don't make the same ridiculous mistake with a minor such as Dean's son.

It's not the $549 that worries me as much as the 1.2 million that Neil Bush, GW brother is getting from the communist ex-president of China.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/01/03/wbush03.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/01/03/ixnewstop.html

[Amazin]

Lefty

If you think Bush is freeing an unfree people you are hallucinating. If they wanted freedom they would have asked for it. They're not as stupid as you and this biased government would like to portray them. If you think they were too scared of Hussein think again.They're obviously not scared to mix it up with a stronger adversary,I.E. Americans.IMO,Iraqi's had a better quality of life before the invasion than since and it's also the opinion of most Iraqi's .Right now all they have are empty promises from their invaders. All those graves you claim Hussein as being responsible for is b.s.Most of those are mass graves of people who died in the Iran-Iraqi war. Where do you think they bury 1 million people? Naivety will get you nowhere.

[Lefty]

Amazin, You are so blkinded by your hatred of Bush that you can't see the truth on your own tv screen. The fact that the Afghanistans have now their own consitution is plenty proof they like being free of the rule of the Taliban. How could they ask for freedom when completely oppressed and ruled by the Taliban? I guess the dancing in the streets and men shaving their beards was all a hallucination?
Saddam was great. His people loved him. It's a lie that he tortured people and put them in mass graves? It's a lie that his sons and his men raped and executed women? That seems to be your position.
You are not this consciously elevated man you pretend to be. You are just a Bush hater and everyone of your posts give you away and i'm getting bored responding to such a naive or hatefilled or both, man that you have proven yourself to be. Go live with the Taliban. They're a nice misunderstood bunch who would welcome you.
I hope you are not a teacher in any school dealing with young impressionable minds. That's a prayer. Amen.

[Tom]

Originally posted by Amazin
Tom QuoteDo you consider Hussein and Bin Laden as "victims?

I consider those two scapegoats for the invasion and conquering of specific foreign countries which was the true motivation of our government before you ever even heard of their names.

Why would anyone want Afghanistan? It is a useless Sh*thole
of rocks and mountains.
Bin Laden a scapegoat? that is the stupidist thing I have ever heard. Congratualtions.....you just imnproved Clinton's approval rating amoung republicans.

[Tom]

Originally posted by Amazin
Lefty

I have something called a conscious.I cannot justify the killing of innocent civilians for anything, let alone questionable intentions. I dont see this life as and end in itself ,but rather as a stop on an infinite journey.



And we are only helping some of them expidite their journey.
How can you condmen us fro sending them meet allah?
Are they not far better off dead and with allah than alive and being supressed by us??????


(Vetscratch.....HELP! KILL ME BEFORE I POST AGAIN!):D

[Amazin]

Lefty

Your about as duped as they get.You go around chanting constitution in Afghanistan when it A)hasn't been implemented and has no track record B)does not seperate mosque and state and C)discriminates against 3/4 of their population.It fails to protect women's rights from forced marriages and other abuses.So discrimination based on gender is still in force.Even though wording was amended to say men and women have equal rights,the lack of seperation of mosque and state has sealed women's fates. Two decades of war has created millions of orphaned children to be breadwinners for their families.It does not grant children the rights they would need to continue supporting their families.In a country where food,water,shelter,security,and health care are lacking and poverty and hardship is abundant,this constitution does nothing but invite the Taliban back.Cause when your desperate,you don't give a damn whose side will alleviate your suffering. And the Taliban have been making a little comeback.The U.S. is playing right into their hands and this has been the Taliban's succesful pattern with other invaders:remission and resurgence. So get off your qualudes and get a reality check.

Tom

I think everyone would agree that they would prefer to choose the time to meet their maker rather than have someone else decide that for them.

[Tom]

Originally posted by Amazin
[.....The U.S. is playing right into their hands and this has been the Taliban's succesful pattern with other invaders:remission and resurgence. So get off your qualudes and get a reality check.

Tom

I think everyone would agree that they would prefer to choose the time to meet their maker rather than have someone else decide that for them. [/B]

1. Afghanistan had zero chance of a constitution under the Taliban
2. At one point, ours was unproven and counted slaves as 3/5 of person....we evolved and did ok
3. I would say by launching terrorist attacks, by torturing innocent people, by stealing countries ans freedom away from people, theses animals are sending a clear message that they have chosen now as the time to meet thier maker. I for one am extremely HAPPY to oblige them. Killing cockroaches like these is a GOOD thing.
4. Do you have a spider hole in your back yard? You seem ready to crawl into one and hide every time there is a crisis or a challenge.

Bin Laden, a scapegoat? Boy oh boy......and you accuse Lefty of being on drugs.

[VetScratch]

Damn... I can't resist any longer myself! :D :D

Much of the mistrust and animosity aimed at the U.S. stems from our vacillating policies and situational ethics.

We armed and put the Taliban in power when it pleased us, knowing full well they were Muslim fundamentalists opposed to a non-secular democracy.

We armed and backed Saddam Hussein in the Iraq-Iran war, knowing full well that he was a ruthless dictator who used gas against Iranian troops and was dropping any leftover surplus on the Kurds.

Now we are courting the world's biggest nutcase dictator in Turkmenistan to help us catch fleeing Taliban while completely ignoring how he treats the Turkmen.

After awhile, word gets around.

With no huge oil reserves in the ground to interest us, we were quite content to let Israel and Syria turn Lebanon into debris.

[Lefty]

amazin, I am not duped but you are and by your own hatred. The Constitution is a start. A journey of a 1000 miles does start with that single step. But never mind, you'll never get it. If you hadf your way we would have done nothing and would still be digging out of the rubble of more attacks.
Vet, duh... Every nation looks out for itself and acts in its own self interest. What's wrong with that? You rail so much against oil you better be riding a bike or you're just another hypocrite.

[VetScratch]

Lefty,Every nation looks out for itself and acts in its own self interest.So do street gangs.

[Lefty]

Another flawed analagy.
Vet, you are a citizen, right? You'd rather for us to look out for other nations at our own expense? If gasoline was 10 bucks a gallon you people that rail about oil and oil interests would be first to bitch. Even now when gas goes up a few cents people like you are yelling conspiracy. Now, what about that bike?

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by VetScratch
Lefty,So do street gangs.

I start watching sometimes just to see where this crap goes. It can be fun, sometimes. The above was beneath you dear. I expect more........why don't we all just back out of this thread real slow and close the door ever so gently............

PA, Lock it Hurry! Hurry!

[Amazin]

VS made a true analogy to an obvious generalization because that generalization proved nothing.You knock her for that? Maybe I have overestimated the intellect I am responding to. Instead of knocking her,why don't you come out with a more substantial response on the issue.

[Lefty]

You call comparing the U.S. to a streetgang a true analagy? Of course you do. What else can i expect from a man that excuses stone cold killers like Bin Laden and saddam and then dares to say our soldiers and President are worse than the vermin we're trying to stamp out?
What else can I expect from a man who basks in freedom but would deny that freedom to others.
What else can I expect from a man that vigorously exercises his right to free speech, but obviously, would not lift a finger to protect that free speech if necessary.
The answer: NOTHING.
I live in the midst of street gangs. They kill for fun. They kill for validation among their peers. They rob and steal and sell drugs because they are to lazy to work. And if you truly believe we as a country are like that, then I say, why are you not on a plane going to your socialist utopia in another country?

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by Lefty
Vet, duh... Every nation looks out for itself and acts in its own self interest. What's wrong with that? You rail so much against oil you better be riding a bike or you're just another hypocrite.

The problem with every nation acting in its own self interest is that it leads to chaos. Germany under Hitler beleived it was acting in its own self interest, as did Japan during WW II.

And no, I'm not comparing Germany or Japan to the US, but simply your statement referring to "every nation".

This is part of the Israel-Palestine problem. Both nations are acting in their own self interests.

This is why we have a thing called diplomacy.

[Lefty]

Sec, disagree completely. Germany and Japan did not act in its own best interests. You had two dictators bent on rulling the world acting in their own "mad" interests, with complete disregard to their people. Another flawed analogy.

[Lefty]

And in the Israel/Palestine prob. you have one(the Palestines)completely bent on destroying the other.

[VetScratch]

Lefty,

The U.S. has a history of backing dictators and corrupt political regimes without regard to the folks who suffer at their hands.

Why do you think current anti-American sentiment is focused on our government in countries that are ancestral homes for millions of Americans? We are not hated... we are viewed as dupes of our own political process... nice but simple folks who have squandered the virtues of democracy through ignorance.

When I travel abroad, folks in a position to influence opinions are dismayed that so many Americans trivialize our democracy by voting like children without understanding the issues. Cosmetic appeal and sound bites swing elections, then domestic and foreign policies are crafted by the powerful special interest groups that backed the winners.

Candidates who sincerely try to articulate a political platform to deal with complex issues get trounced at the polls. KISS is what wins elections because we let uninformed and ignorant folks vote.

I'm all for democracy so long as we ask voters to demonstrate some knowledge about candidates, government, and issues. One recent polling study showed that where non-partisan votes are solicited (i.e., where there is no incumbent and candidates are not listed by their affiliations to political parties), the majority of votes are impulsive reactions to the names of the candidates... votes cast with zero knowledge about the candidates behind the names. In other circumstances, incumbents tend to inherit votes from folks who have no knowledge about any candidate!

Anyone who votes without knowledge is part of the problem regardless of how they vote.

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by Lefty
Sec, disagree completely. Germany and Japan did not act in its own best interests. You had two dictators bent on rulling the world acting in their own "mad" interests, with complete disregard to their people. Another flawed analogy.

Vet, duh... Every nation looks out for itself and acts in its own self interest. What's wrong with that?



OK. Lefty. Though you said nothing about dictatorships in your original quote above, I assume you mean by "self interest" you are only talking about "approved democracies". OK...how bout France? Certainly, not a dictatorship. I suppose its decision not to tacitly approve the US invasion of Iraq was fine with you. After all they were only acting in their own self interest. But perhaps the leaders of France weren't really speaking on behalf of the people of France. Let's face it. The US currently is at an all time low when it comes to world approval. Even our two closest partners in the coalition Britain and Australia's leaders are facing massive anti-resistance in their countries for joining in the decision to invade Iraq.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Amazin
VS made a true analogy to an obvious generalization because that generalization proved nothing.You knock her for that? Maybe I have overestimated the intellect I am responding to. Instead of knocking her,why don't you come out with a more substantial response on the issue.

I wrote you off a long time ago. You are close minded and lack intelligence, wit and just about everything else that might make you worth reading. Now Vettie popped back in here with a nice post. I still say this thread died two or three days back.

Oh yeah.....let me make a generalization......... people like amazin are bone heads.........freeway debris..... was that general enough for you......... Amazin, with all the great people on this board you are looking pretty weak. Just like most of your arguments.

[ranchwest]

Originally posted by VetScratch
Jaguar,

Most of the great prophets substantially agree on a core set of values that circumscribe what is fair, ethical, or harmonious... however, what is sacred is obviously beyond man's comprehension. Sacred causes too frequently saddle War, the white mount among the Four Horses of the Apocalypse.

Placing Christ in historical perspective, his choice of Apostles may have been more pragmatic than sacred. Women were not equally empowered to be effective evangelists when Christ considered his options.

And what about Priscilla?

[VetScratch]

Originally posted by ranchwest
And what about Priscilla? Christ would likely put Mary (Magdellan) and Prisca in charge of apostlehood today! :) :)

[Amazin]

JR and Lefty

Both of you have one thing in common. When you cannot respond in an intelligent manner relating to the issue at hand,you resort to personal attacks and claims of being unpatriotic.

It's apparent to me that when you have to debase yourself to those tactics,you do not have a full understaning of the subject at hand and try to hide you ignorance with those personal attacks. What I do not understand is how someone like you two can live with a belief knowing it does not hold up under scrutiny. My speculation is you are more interested in following the herd than following the truth. A pathetic existence. If you knock me for speaking the truth,it's a compliment coming from the likes of you.

[Lefty]

Vet, glad you are for democracy, quite condenscending of you.

amazin, I say you are unpatriotic because your posts scream it. And you wouldn't know the truth if you found it in a sandwhich.

Sec, yes all nations act in their own self interest, even the unscupulous ones. So you are saying we should not and thereby put us at the mercy of say, a nation like France, or Germany or Russia who did not want Saddam defeated because they were selling him weapons and cutting oil deals with him? We should not act in our own best interests? That's just plain nuts.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by VetScratch
When I travel abroad...

Now hold the phone here....when do you get a chance to travel abroad when you're on here almost 24/7!!! ;)

...dismayed that so many Americans trivialize our democracy by voting like children without understanding the issues. Cosmetic appeal and sound bites swing elections, then domestic and foreign policies are crafted by the powerful special interest groups that backed the winners.

And a better democratic model would be which nation??????

[Amazin]

Lefty

Once again you generalize.(hope you don't mind my saying so JR).Them bad,we good.

It's one thing for a country to act in their own self interest and it is necessary many times. The problem is you don't distinguish between a reasonable need for self preservation and greed.

We want democracy in Iraq. Has anyone polled Iraqi's as to what type of government they would like to see? Is that Democracy?Answer:If you are flag waving,moslem fearing, ass kissing, 911 brainwashed,uneducated,closed minded imbecile.Then yes. If you have common sense and an affinity for the obvious,the answer is the truth.

[ranchwest]

Originally posted by VetScratch
Christ would likely put Mary (Magdellan) and Prisca in charge of apostlehood today! :) :)

And why would Christ act differently today? He is King of Kings, he doesn't need to change. He wasn't being PC in charting his course, he knew what he was doing.

[Lefty]

amazin, oh, yes I do. We are a democracy, and any problem in the world we are there to help. When we had 9-11 did Iran help us, yet we are there trying to help them after the earthquake. This is the most reasonable country on earth. As PA said, and a better model is?:

Yes, if you would quit reading the liberal rags and listen to a lot of soldiers and even some newsmen that have returned from Iraq they are thisting for democracy and i've said many times many new businesses have opened and get this: It was the Iraquis who "fingered" Saddam. What's that tell you?
It is your narrowmindedness that seems to think it's only Christans and Jews who thirst for freedom.

[Amazin]

Lefty

You still don't get my point. If we are to be an example of freedom,justice and democracy,we should show that to the world. Instead we are showing what VS properly alluded to, and that is a thug mentality. Before you start with buying me a plane ticket out of this country(I'll take you up on it when I need a vacation),consider me this:

In Iraq,there are approxmateley 13,000 Iraqi's being held as prisoners by Americans. They have not been charged with a crime. They have been in jail for months.Their visitation priveledges are practically non-existent.Alot are family men ,some with proffessional careers.Basically their rights have been stripped from them with no evidence of a crime. Is this an example of democracy?Guilty till proven innocent.

Let's get a little more intense. After the fall of the Taliban,1000 taliban soldiers surrendered to American soldiers,Newsweek published an article about the slaughter of these prisoners by U.S. forces. Is that the democracy you advocate?

These examples are just the tip of the iceberg.My point is I am not against America or Democracy.I am against the injustices in the name of America and Democracy. And I will not support or associate myself to these treacherous acts or lies.

[Secretariat]

Below is a link to Moore's site. Lefty, there's even a letter from an American soldier fighting in Iraq. I know he's going to be in trouble for writing this, but its worth reading since he's over there fighting. Also down below are some great links to articles to help see a little about the other point of view.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/

[delayjf]

Amazin,

Are you claiming that American Forces took 1000 Tailiban Fighters out in the desert and shot them. OR are you refering to the prison uprising that resulted in the deaths of 1000 taliban prisoners, who by the way were killed in large part by Afgan coalition forces not Americans. the CIA was there, but the majority of the fighter were Afgans.

By the way, POWs are not afforded the same "constitutional rights" as American citizens. I can't believe you can't see the difference. Whats next, should the Iraqis be allowed to elect Senators and congressmen to represent them here in the US.

What is your solution?

[Amazin]

Delay

Taliban prisoners who had surrendered to the Northern Alliance following the battle for Konduz were herded by the hundreds into sealed cargo-container trucks—without air or water—at the Qala Zeini fort, and left to die of asphyxiation and dehydration during the two- to three-day journey to the Sheberghan prison. Their corpses were then dumped and buried in a mass grave at Dasht-e Leili, just west of Sheberghan.

The Newsweek investigation was prompted by discoveries by Bill Haglund, a forensic anthropologist and archeologist, at the mass grave at Dasht-e Leili. He traveled there after investigators from the Boston-based Physicians for Human Rights interviewed surviving prisoners at Sheberghan, who told them of the killings.


I can see the difference between POW's and an American citizen. But this is murder in the first degree. Hardly a democratic process.

[lsbets]

Okay, I've got internet access - not good access, but access.

Secretariat - why do you only link to far left shit bags? You claim to be equally critical of both sides, but be honest - you only crticize the right. I read the "letters". Two points:

1) I have seen a lot more positive letters, what does it prove? Nothing - If you could get 130,000 people to agree on anything 100% you would be performing a miracle.

2) One letter speaks about the equipment issued to Reserve truck drivers. Well, that is a subject that I know an awful lot about - the letter is either false, or the person who wrote it knows nothing. The new Interceptor Body Armor was not available in suffiecient quantities to issue to everyone. Those who needed it most got it, those who did not received the same flak vest that I had in Kuwait and Bosnia. Pleny of reservists got the armor, plenyt of active did not, it depends on the job. The soldiers had plenty of protection. The company that makes the body armor was unable to keep up with the production demands after 9/11, but has caught up and all soldiers now receive the new body armor. In terms of sidearms - a pistol is USELESS in a convoy - no range and no killing power. I am a Captain and I draw an M-16 to ride with because my 9 mil would do NOTHING.

Based on that one letter, I would doubt anything on that site. If the letter is genuine, simple fact checking should have led to its omission.

Amazin -

Lefty calls you unpatriotic because you are. You have proven it over and over again. I still invite you to join your beloved Iraqi resistance. I would love to run into you there.

P.S. - I am in North Carolina right now, then we go to Virginia next month, and deploy in the March time frame. I have an outstanding group of soldiers who are all proud to be headed over to Iraq, and who I am proud and privelaged to lead. It has been an intesting week getting everyone into "Army" mode, but things are going great. Thanks for all of the good wishes and support that I have received from members of this board. It is noticed and appreciated.

[Dave Schwartz]

LS,

Let us know when to start sending the cookies. <G>

And try to stay out of harm's way, will you? Clients are just too hard for me to come by these days. <G>

And Fahyetnam can be a rough place. (I assume that is where you are.)


Dave

[delayjf]

Amazin,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that was the Northern Alliance not US Forces. Besides, they probably deserved it.

[VetScratch]

Lsbets,

No one doubts your sincerity, courage, intentions, or patriotism... and once deployed, it is treasonous not to pray for the success and safety of you and your men. However, there is no shame in questioning the mission that will put you in harm's way and the wisdom of our political leaders.

I wish none of our boys had to go, but when dropped in country, if we must go to war, they should be shooting and torching every m*****f******g thing that moves or breathes. Let's make war a serious undertaking instead of a political/economic option measured in terms of expendable resources and collateral damage.

[VetScratch]

PA,
Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Now hold the phone here....when do you get a chance to travel abroad when you're on here almost 24/7!!! ;)

And a better democratic model would be which nation?????? When I am not pulling a year's duty taking care of a family member who would otherwise have to go into an assisted living environment for medical reasons. I will get replaced in March... then I'm free to go again.

So... I'm making a list, checkin it twice; I'm gonna decide who's naughty or nice. You better watch out, you better not cry, you better not pout, i'm tellin' you why... I'll buy the first round when I see you later this year! :D :D :D :D

A good model? Jeffersonian concepts of democracy in America (except for race/creed/sex restrictions) would be a good model. Why should ignorant folks be allowed to vote... by that I mean folks who are too lazy to become informed voters.

[lsbets]

VS,

I hope you did not take my post as directed at you or saying that you do not have the right to question or criticize. I agree with a lot of what you said.

However, I disagree when you say "No One". Amazin has already said he considers me and everyone in the military a murderer. He has said we are cowards. I have no doubt that he roots for our enemies because their success would hurt Bush (and I also think he supports our enemies), and I have a hunch that there are 2 or 3 other posters on here who would be more than happy to see soldiers die if it kept Bush from being reelected. The more they post, the more they disgust me. You are not in that group, even though I disagree with you a lot. Please don't think that I lump you in with the trash.

[lsbets]

VS,

How do you determine who is too lazy to become informed? What defines ignorant? Is it anyone who you disagree with? That is a dangerous road to travel and sounds like the start of exclusion to the "politically educated" in the old Soviet Union.

[VetScratch]

LS,

Amazin' is lunatic fringe... probably doesn't even vote.

I would say a few fundamental questions like "Who is the current governor of this state?" would be a sensible way to screen lazy voters at the polls. The one that might literally disqualify millions unless it was asked as a multiple choice is "Who is the current Vice President of the United States?"

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by lsbets
Okay, I've got internet access - not good access, but access.

Secretariat - why do you only link to far left shit bags? You claim to be equally critical of both sides, but be honest - you only crticize the right. I read the "letters". Two points:

1) I have seen a lot more positive letters, what does it prove? Nothing - If you could get 130,000 people to agree on anything 100% you would be performing a miracle.

2) One letter speaks about the equipment issued to Reserve truck drivers. Well, that is a subject that I know an awful lot about - the letter is either false, or the person who wrote it knows nothing. The new Interceptor Body Armor was not available in suffiecient quantities to issue to everyone. Those who needed it most got it, those who did not received the same flak vest that I had in Kuwait and Bosnia. Pleny of reservists got the armor, plenyt of active did not, it depends on the job. The soldiers had plenty of protection. The company that makes the body armor was unable to keep up with the production demands after 9/11, but has caught up and all soldiers now receive the new body armor. In terms of sidearms - a pistol is USELESS in a convoy - no range and no killing power. I am a Captain and I draw an M-16 to ride with because my 9 mil would do NOTHING.

Based on that one letter, I would doubt anything on that site. If the letter is genuine, simple fact checking should have led to its omission.

Amazin -

Lefty calls you unpatriotic because you are. You have proven it over and over again. I still invite you to join your beloved Iraqi resistance. I would love to run into you there.

P.S. - I am in North Carolina right now, then we go to Virginia next month, and deploy in the March time frame. I have an outstanding group of soldiers who are all proud to be headed over to Iraq, and who I am proud and privelaged to lead. It has been an intesting week getting everyone into "Army" mode, but things are going great. Thanks for all of the good wishes and support that I have received from members of this board. It is noticed and appreciated.

Ok, you don't like Michael Moore, or dozens of news articles by the Associated Press.

How about a GW Bush Cabinet appointment? Here's what Paul O'Neill says now that he's "free" to talk.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040109/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/bush_o_neill_1

[lsbets]

Secretariat,

I specifically addressed the issues that you linked to and gave my thoughts on the link, both the content and the individual. You reply by linking to something completly unrelated rather than responding to the topic at hand. You have done this numerous times before. You should be a politician. Would you care to reply to my points 1 and 2, or would you rather further prove that you are driven by nothing more than hate for Bush?

As far as O'Neills comments - I don't know, I have never been in a cabinet meeting before. This is not the first time that a fired cabinet secretary blasts his old boss, it happens to every President, always publicly, and my thoughts are always the same:

There is someone who does not know when to keep his mouth shut and does not know how to respect the chain of command. No wonder he was fired, I could never trust him. I said that about the people who turned on Clinton too. Whether what any of them say has merit or not, I do not respect individuals who do that.

[VetScratch]

I just think Granada, Panama, and twice with Iraq have made it too easy for voters to say yes to war. Uninformed voters are tempted to jingoism when our volunteers win the fights for them. How many will jump to answer the bell of necessity if we ever need them for duty like Chicamauga, Meuse-Argonne, the beaches of Normandy, Iwo Jima, Chosin Reservoir, or the Tet Offensive?

I have worked with a lot of arrogant X-gen MBAs who foresee wars being fought only by volunteers (a few elite professionals with the vast majority of troops indirectly conscripted out of necessity by their ethnic and socio-economic circumstances).

[Lefty]

amazin, no sense responding to your drivel. We are in a war. If you are on the other side, that's your problem. Besides, lsbets said it better than I.

Vet, qustion the mission all you want, that's your right. But most americans think you are just wrong.

Sec, gawd, next you'll be using Al Franken as a source.

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by lsbets
Secretariat,

I specifically addressed the issues that you linked to and gave my thoughts on the link, both the content and the individual. You reply by linking to something completly unrelated rather than responding to the topic at hand. You have done this numerous times before. You should be a politician. Would you care to reply to my points 1 and 2, or would you rather further prove that you are driven by nothing more than hate for Bush?

As far as O'Neills comments - I don't know, I have never been in a cabinet meeting before. This is not the first time that a fired cabinet secretary blasts his old boss, it happens to every President, always publicly, and my thoughts are always the same:

There is someone who does not know when to keep his mouth shut and does not know how to respect the chain of command. No wonder he was fired, I could never trust him. I said that about the people who turned on Clinton too. Whether what any of them say has merit or not, I do not respect individuals who do that.

You say you specifically addressed the issues that I addressed. All I did was provide a link to the Moore site where there are a lot of letters from some pretty upset soldiers complaining about their commander in chief. But to your specifics:

Your Point One

"1) I have seen a lot more positive letters, what does it prove? Nothing - If you could get 130,000 people to agree on anything 100% you would be performing a miracle."

My Reponse

How does one repond to this kind of generality. My response to this point is that there is dissension in loyal patriotic soldiers fighting out there. It is not as posed by yourself and many here that if you disagre with your president you’re unpatriotic.

Your Point Two

"1) One letter speaks about the equipment issued to Reserve truck drivers. Well, that is a subject that I know an awful lot about - the letter is either false, or the person who wrote it knows nothing. The new Interceptor Body Armor was not available in suffiecient quantities to issue to everyone. Those who needed it most got it, those who did not received the same flak vest that I had in Kuwait and Bosnia. Pleny of reservists got the armor, plenyt of active did not, it depends on the job. The soldiers had plenty of protection. The company that makes the body armor was unable to keep up with the production demands after 9/11, but has caught up and all soldiers now receive the new body armor. In terms of sidearms - a pistol is USELESS in a convoy - no range and no killing power. I am a Captain and I draw an M-16 to ride with because my 9 mil would do NOTHING.

Based on that one letter, I would doubt anything on that site. If the letter is genuine, simple fact checking should have led to its omission."

My Response

I am assuming you are referring to this letter below:

From a 56 year old Navy veteran, relating a conversation he had with a young man who was leaving for Iraq the next morning:

“What disturbed me most was when I asked him what weapons he carried as a truck driver. He told me the new M-16, model blah blah blah, stuff never made sense to me even when I was in. I asked him what kind of side arm they gave him and his fellow drivers. He explained, "Sir, Reservists are not issued side arms or flack vests as there was not enough money to outfit all the Reservists, only Active Personnel". I was appalled to say the least.

"Bush is a jerk agreed, but I can't believe he is this big an Asshole not providing protection and arms for our troops to fight HIS WAR!” "

First, it is interesting you choose this among many of the letters. You say “all soldiers now receive body armor” in your post. Obviously, you were misinformed. See below links. This really was another example of poor planning in going to war without proper equipment, and now the Pentagon is trying to catch up as even MSNBC reports.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/1000971.asp

From as late as Dec 18, 2003 below we learn Maine reservists still have no body armor:

http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/newengla2003/me__bodyarmor_2003.shtml

I realize that Lefty and yourself are so convinced of Bush’s justifcations that you will buy anything he says. Your own comment below about Paul O’Neill’s comment is quite revealing.

“There is someone who does not know when to keep his mouth shut and does not know how to respect the chain of command. No wonder he was fired, I could never trust him. I said that about the people who turned on Clinton too. Whether what any of them say has merit or not, I do not respect individuals who do that.

In other words anyone who questions (in your own words “whether what any of them say has merit or not”), you cannot respect people like that. I’m more interested in Americans knowing the truth, rather than respecting the “chain of command”. That “chain of command” argument didn’t work at Nuremburg, and it doesn’t fly now.

You will be relieved to know that I’ve decided this is my last post on this Thread. When people become as closed minded as yourself it is simply a waste of my time to attempt to convince you otherwise no matter how many supporting documents I supply, because everything will always be “liberal” or “lies” or “doubtful” to you, even when these sources come directly from soldiers, or Bush appointed officials themselves.

[VetScratch]

Secretariat,

We seldom see left-and-right or hawk-and-dove entertain the kind of debates where everyone comes away with more understanding, despite ideological moorings.

One of my favorite debates was Keyes versus Dershowitz, two frequently reviled public figures even among their natural constituencies, but both never failing to elevate an audience.

http://www.renewamerica.us/archives/speeches/00_09_27debate.htm

[lsbets]

Secretariat,

For once you decided to speak for yourself insteadd of hiding behind a link, well sort of at least, and you proved how poor your ability to comprehend is.

1) I never, ever said that if you disagree with the President you are unpatriotic. I did say that I feel that certain people who post here are. Big, huge difference. Too bad you don't get it.

2) Your MSNBC link goes to a dead end. Must be an old story. The other story is dated December 18, 2003. I said "Now". Now does not mean December 18. It is recent, yet out of date. You say I am misinformed. Trust me on the body armor one buddy - my knowledge is as first hand as it gets. The soldeirs rotating into Iraq ALL GET IT NOW! But, I guess I am not as well informed as a liberal bufoon like yourself who has no first hand knowledge and is normally too scared to speak for himself so he hides behind links.

3) I believe in loyalty, and I distrust people who betray that loyalty in a book. Golly, I never knew that there was something wrong with having values. Well, someone as extreme as you apparantly thinks nothing of values unless they are convenient to his position.

4) You say it is interesting that I chose that letter. I chose it for what should have been an obvious reason - I am a Captain in the friggin Reserves with a truck company. I have firsthand knowledge of the subject and do not have to read some questionable letter to form an opinion. Once again you show that your comprehension skills are lacking.

I am not relieved that this was your last post, I am laughing. You are running away, as people with extreme agendas tend to do when confronted. I do not blindly support Bush and have been openly critical of him on many fronts. I do support his foreign policy, and he is my commander in chief. You are blinded by your hate for the man, and I have a feeling that if people woke up on election day to news of 100 dead Americans in Iraq, you would smile because you felt it would hurt him. You have not said anything to that extent, but that is the impression that you give me.

[ljb]

Lefty,
Al Franken is a much better source then that doper you use.
What's his name?

[Derek2U]

that Keyes vs Dersh debate was GreaT. i started out 100%
Dersh, then 85, then 92, then 50, then, ..... not sure how I
finished, probly 80-20 fav of Dersh.

[Tom]

Originally posted by Amazin
[B We want democracy in Iraq. Has anyone polled Iraqi's as to what type of government they would like to see? Is that Democracy?...... [/B]

Amazin...THAT is the whole point. WE are the only ones to ever give them that choice. Duh!!!!!!!

:eek:

[Tom]

Originally posted by VetScratch


A good model? Jeffersonian concepts of democracy in America (except for race/creed/sex restrictions) would be a good model. Why should ignorant folks be allowed to vote... by that I mean folks who are too lazy to become informed voters.


1. VS...a WORKING model. Not a book model. Name one better than ours.

2. Why allow them the right to vote? Because it is their right and YOU don't the right to deny it, no matter how lazy they are. That, too, is their right.

[Tom]

Originally posted by Amazin
Lefty

If you think Bush is freeing an unfree people you are hallucinating. If they wanted freedom they would have asked for it. They're not as stupid as you and this biased government would like to portray them. If you think they were too scared of Hussein think again.They're obviously not scared to mix it up with a stronger adversary,I.E. Americans.IMO,Iraqi's had a better quality of life before the invasion than since and it's also the opinion of most Iraqi's .Right now all they have are empty promises from their invaders. All those graves you claim Hussein as being responsible for is b.s.Most of those are mass graves of people who died in the Iran-Iraqi war. Where do you think they bury 1 million people? Naivety will get you nowhere.

Amazin is a perfect handle for you. you are sooooo far from the target it is truly amzin you can find this board every day. Hey, Brainiac....mass graves BS.....Did you forget the thousands he gassed to death? Did you see the mourning masses there trying to pick up remains of their loved ones, all decrying Hussein as the devil?
You know, A, Bin Laden is still out there, and he wants to kill you, too. *sigh*

[Tom]

Originally posted by ljb
Lefty,
Al Franken is a much better source then that doper you use.
What's his name?

How about this for a book title, in the same class as the rest of Frankens' classy works-
"Al Franken is Big Fat Slimeball and I Hope He Dies of Aids!"

That, L is the class of that worthless POS.

[Tom]

So 100 Taliban were slaughtered?
Who cares who did it?
The good thing, is they are dead.
Too bad whoever it was didn't torture them to death..could have saved the bullets for Iran.

[ranchwest]

Originally posted by VetScratch
Why should ignorant folks be allowed to vote... by that I mean folks who are too lazy to become informed voters.

Ah, so you are the elitist you appear to be.

[ljb]

Tom,
I thought you had more class then that. Al Franken just reports the facts, not the lies like most of the rightwing dudes/chicks.

[Tom]

Al Franken is a POS. He is nothing but an insulting low life.
He is to an author what what a live-in ho is to a lasting relationship.

[ljb]

Tom,
Can you give any reasons for your dislike of Al Franken? Other then the fact that he is a liberal and catches most of the rightwingers in their lies?

[Amazin]

All Redneck Right wingers

Your true colors were clearly displayed in your responses to the 1000 taliban who were slaughtered. You have no moral convictions nor do you care for right,wrong or democracy. Your #1 agenda is to be right whether or not you are right,or whether or not it is democratic. In short you talk one way but practice another

I would expect a true consciencious conservative with class to show some remorse or admit a mistake in judgement about a Nazi style execution of prisoners(Taliban). Instead respones are the most stupid,meaningless and barbaric answers such as:

A)your unpatriotic(no backup)
B)They deserved it
C) Who cares

Now from these answers regarding a massacre,you want me to believe that you care about Saddam massacaring people.An excuse you've used to justify forcefully removing him.Hypocrites.Apparently you believe it's o.k. for us to act like a butcher but Saddam can't act like a butcher unless we give him permission to like in the Iran war. You don't care about massacres or mass graves if we do it..You don't care about right or wrong if we do it nor do you display an understanding of democracy or human rights.You only care about yourselves regardless of how many(foreigners) are killed so you can feel good.You think God is only on your side. A convenietly wretched approach to humanity.You are not even conservative,just twisted.You are not even qualified to discuss this subject.

[Lefty]

amaze, the Taliban are waiting for you, or are you already in place as the propaganda man?

[Lefty]

www.frankenlies.com
One quick ex: Franken says that the Sudanese did not offer up Bin Laden to Clinton. That's a big fat Franken lie.

[VetScratch]

Tom,
VS...a WORKING model. Not a book model. Name one better than ours.Norway comes to mind if they would just send out a fleet of Viking Ships and conquer someplace warm like Florida. :D :D :D :D

[VetScratch]

Ranchwest,

Where do you find a connection between elitism and criticism of lazy folks. If some 20-year-old burger flipper ignores the real issues decided at the polls but has mastered Grand Theft Auto, he/she should be given a ballot for Game of the Year. No one needs to be left out; we just need to match folks with their interests and categories of demonstrated knowledge. :) :)

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by lsbets
Secretariat,

For once you decided to speak for yourself insteadd of hiding behind a link, well sort of at least, and you proved how poor your ability to comprehend is.

1) I never, ever said that if you disagree with the President you are unpatriotic. I did say that I feel that certain people who post here are. Big, huge difference. Too bad you don't get it.

2) Your MSNBC link goes to a dead end. Must be an old story. The other story is dated December 18, 2003. I said "Now". Now does not mean December 18. It is recent, yet out of date. You say I am misinformed. Trust me on the body armor one buddy - my knowledge is as first hand as it gets. The soldeirs rotating into Iraq ALL GET IT NOW! But, I guess I am not as well informed as a liberal bufoon like yourself who has no first hand knowledge and is normally too scared to speak for himself so he hides behind links.

3) I believe in loyalty, and I distrust people who betray that loyalty in a book. Golly, I never knew that there was something wrong with having values. Well, someone as extreme as you apparantly thinks nothing of values unless they are convenient to his position.

4) You say it is interesting that I chose that letter. I chose it for what should have been an obvious reason - I am a Captain in the friggin Reserves with a truck company. I have firsthand knowledge of the subject and do not have to read some questionable letter to form an opinion. Once again you show that your comprehension skills are lacking.

I am not relieved that this was your last post, I am laughing. You are running away, as people with extreme agendas tend to do when confronted. I do not blindly support Bush and have been openly critical of him on many fronts. I do support his foreign policy, and he is my commander in chief. You are blinded by your hate for the man, and I have a feeling that if people woke up on election day to news of 100 dead Americans in Iraq, you would smile because you felt it would hurt him. You have not said anything to that extent, but that is the impression that you give me.

I wasn’t going to repond to your post and won’t respond by getting into juvenile namecalling (liberal bufoon) that you chose too. But I will this last time.

However, I will address a few of your points.

Your quote:
1. “For once you decided to speak for yourself instead of hiding behind a link”

My response:
I only provided links because in so many of your earlier posts on this thread you kept querying others with “where’s the proof?” A fair enough question.

When you had difficulty comprehending the analogy in the links that I posted about Halliburton bidding, you became dissatisfied and asked me for the names of companies who could bid against Halliburton. I then provided those for you in a post. You then chose not to respond after that. Then you stated you wanted me to “speak for myself” rather than hiding behind the links. The links are news articles, unfortunately, all that most of have access to.

Your response to one of our fellow soldier’s letters below:

2) “One letter speaks about the equipment issued to Reserve truck drivers. Well, that is a subject that I know an awful lot about - the letter is either false, or the person who wrote it knows nothing. The new Interceptor Body Armor was not available in suffiecient quantities to issue to everyone. Those who needed it most got it, those who did not received the same flak vest that I had in Kuwait and Bosnia. Pleny of reservists got the armor, plenyt of active did not, it depends on the job. The soldiers had plenty of protection.”

My own research:

You asked me earlier to “trust you” on this. I don’t know you. You’ve never in this thread provided any information except anecdotal claims where one can find information indicating “all” soldiers are now wearing body armor. I truly hope they are, and I will continue to search for some viable proof that soldeirs are sufficiently equipped, rather than parents needing to send them body armor as was happening earlier in the war. What really bothered me, however, was that you completely disregarded the soldier’s letter as “false” or “the person who wrote it knows nothing.” Moore never posted the date that letter was written. Maybe it was before Dec. 18th. If that soldier knew nothing what about Sen. Warner, or Gen. John Abizaid or the Dec. 18th article about the Maine reservists. I really do hope you are right.

“At a hearing of the Senate Armed Services Committee on Nov. 19, Sen. John W. Warner, R-Va., the committee's chairman, told acting Army Secretary Les Brownlee that the shortage of body armor in Iraq was "totally unacceptable."

Last month, Rep. Ted Strickland, D-Ohio, and 102 other House members wrote to Rep. Duncan Hunter, R-Calif., chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, to demand hearings on why the Pentagon had been unable to provide all U.S. service members in Iraq with the latest body armor.

In the letter, the lawmakers cited reports that soldiers' parents had been purchasing body armor with ceramic plates and sending it to their children in Iraq.

The demand came after Gen. John Abizaid, head of the U.S. Central Command and commander of all military forces in Iraq, told a House Appropriations subcommittee in September that he could not "answer for the record why we started this war with protective vests that were in short supply."

With the armor, "it's the difference between being hit with a fist or with a knife," said Ben Gonzalez, chief of the emergency room at the 28th Combat Support Hospital in Baghdad, the largest U.S. Army hospital in the country, which treats most of the wounded soldiers.

"Now, where was the error -- and I say it's an error made in planning -- to send those troops to forward-deployed regions, and the conflict in Iraq, without adequate numbers of body armor?" Warner asked.

Your other point realting to O’Neill’s comments on Bush:

3) I believe in loyalty, and I distrust people who betray that loyalty in a book. Golly, I never knew that there was something wrong with having values. Well, someone as extreme as you apparantly thinks nothing of values unless they are convenient to his position.

I guess I prize honesty, integrity, and truth to the american people as a greater value than blind “loyalty” to a superior. Thankfully, John Dean (eventually) felt the same way during Watergate. Unquestioning loyalty may be admirable in a soldier (although even that has limits), but in a democracy where elected and appointed officials are responsible to the people, the people have the right to know what kind of officials are governing our nation. O’Neill’s comments to inform the people about what is happening during cabinet meetings is revealing. As a tax payer, I am interested in how our present decision making process is occuring. If sometimes, that picture isn’t pretty, well then, loyalty be damned.

Your last comment:

“You are blinded by your hate for the man, and I have a feeling that if people woke up on election day to news of 100 dead Americans in Iraq, you would smile because you felt it would hurt him. You have not said anything to that extent, but that is the impression that you give me.”

I resent this remark personally very much. Yes, I dislike Bush. I’ve tried to back up my opinion with articles and information. I served in Vietnam, sir, and the loss of one life to me “needlessly” is way, way too much!!! How dare you make such a statement that I would smile at the death of 100 Americans. This statement is the most appalling and offensive statement I have ever read on this board. To make that statement to someone you don’t even know shows your true colors.

[VetScratch]

Originally posted by Derek2U
that Keyes vs Dersh debate was GreaT. i started out 100%
Dersh, then 85, then 92, then 50, then, ..... not sure how I
finished, probly 80-20 fav of Dersh. In an all-or-nothing debate with the Brits over who gets the Iraqi oil, I would prefer to see Tony Blair opposed by either of the two Alans rather than G.W. :) :)

[Derek2U]

#1 ... Bush is an idiot. #2 ... I support our guys in Iraq 100% ...
#3 ... The righties are kinda banal dopes w/ limited education
& no prospects 4 getting laid .... #4 ... Religion has ZERO ZERO
place in politics & the courts should take away ALL there Tax
Exemptions. This isn't an attack on any religion but why should
taxpayers support that crap. Me & my wife Solange go 2 Sunday
mass very other sunday & we both beleive but its private and
it getting 2 crazy especially when U read my #3 point & those
moron tards try 2 interpet scripture. Also, churches should try
more different candle scents like vanilla & boysenberry -- my
wife's fav.

[VetScratch]

Secretariat,

The chain-of-command card played against you was taken out of the deck at the Nurenberg Trials if orders are unlawful, just as they were unlawful in the case of Colonel Oliver North.

D2U,

And I want to know why the damn Unitarians always get the best mandolin players! :)

[VetScratch]

BTW, those Unitarians are too cool for school. They played ALL on top of their exacta in the Eternity Stakes, so they win no matter who the Chosen People really turn out to be. The worst they can expect is a consolation payout. :) :)

[lsbets]

Secretariat,

I've got about a half a second to respond, so I will go to your last comment. I stated I had nothing to back up my feelings about you. If you are appalled by the way that you are perceived, maybe you should look at the way you present yourself. As I said, you never said anything to that extent, but that is the vibe you give off.

Big difference between Watergate and I guy who is pissed off that he got fired. That is my impression of O'Neill, so I stand by what I said. He's mad that he got fired and every President has a few like him to deal with.

In terms of the letter, once again, I am talking about now, this rotation. Trust me or not, I don't care, I know the truth. Also, one of the things that set me off about that letter is that the "soldier" would rather have a handgun than an M-16. Excuse me? I could not imagine anyone in combat who would rather have the almost worthless 9 mil with no knockdown power over the very accurate, yet maintenance intensive M-16. That was what primarily set me off when I origionally responded.

Regarding the request for links, I recall asking people if they had first hand knowledge to back up their opinions. That does not include links to Michael Moore. You gave a list of companies. Great. Can they deploy personnel on short notice to a hostile area? As far as I know, the answer is no. You provided nothing to the contrary. I stand by my thoughts that you are very selective in what you decide to read and what you decide to ignore.

Let me make one more thing clear to you. Next to my family, there is nothing in the world more important to me than my soldiers. They are my second family, and it is my job to bring them home alive. If they were not getting the equipment that they need to go to combat, I would be on here screaming about it, and my wife would be calling all of our local news outlets. I would not stop until I was relieved or they got what they needed. I take my responsibility to them and their families as seriously as the vows that I said to my wife. Don't think for a second that I would put my political views ahead of the welfare of my soldiers. They come first, and they have the equipment that they need (once again - "NOW" - I'm still trying to figure out what part of now you don't understand)

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Derek2U
[B#3 ... The righties are kinda banal dopes w/ limited education
& no prospects 4 getting laid [/B]

nice Derek..........you reveal yourself every so often. Remember when it rains to point that nose down a little, that way you won't drown.

Main Entry: ba·nal
Pronunciation: b&-'nal, ba-, -'n[a']l; bA-'nal; 'bA-n&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: French, from Middle French, of compulsory feudal service, possessed in common, commonplace, from ban
Date: 1840
lacking originality, freshness, or novelty

Do you really think you are better than others? I consider myself "a righty" and I defy your description sir. I hope you are trying to be funny. But I suspect you meant it.

[Lefty]

Vet, guess you are off to Norway since you think they are better than America. Do us a favor and take amazin with you.

Also under your proposal that only the intelligent can vote I guess that leaves out all those people who couldn't master a simple punchcard ballot. And now they even seem to be having probs with "touch screens"

[Tom]

Originally posted by Lefty
Vet, guess you are off to Norway since you think they are better than America. Do us a favor and take amazin with you.

Also under your proposal that only the intelligent can vote I guess that leaves out all those people who couldn't master a simple punchcard ballot. And now they even seem to be having probs with "touch screens"

The Gore-miesters.....couldn't figure out a punch card.
Lefty, good one.....GOOD one. Natural selection at vote in the election. :D

[VetScratch]

Lefty & Tom,

With Gore and Bush, you were given a choice between two special interest agendas:
(1) First, enrich gnomes who want to invest in China, then support gnomes invested in the Middle East.
(2) First, support gnomes invested in the Middle East, then enrich gnomes who want to invest in China.

[Lefty]

Gore and Bush were selected via primaries by the american people. That was their choice. Maybe you'll like it better in Norway.

[VetScratch]

Lefty,
Gore and Bush were selected to run in primaries by the special interests that backed them.

[Lefty]

Vet, and I guess those others running in Primaries such as McCain and Bradley were stopped by special interests and not a lack of votes.? You are just too clever by half.

[VetScratch]

Lefty,
Now you're beginning to get it.

[VetScratch]

Lefty,
Cheney was prudently selected as Bush's mentor and monitor, but by the time the elections were over even the depths of his soul had been indentured to special interests. In today's national news, Moral Majority fundamentalists forced Cheney to publicly embarrass his family when he was ordered to announce support for a federal ban on lesbian marriages. Since he only breaks ties in Senate voting, you would think he should have been allowed to remain on the sidelines pending the rare necessity to use him as a tie breaker. Does this help you see how special interests make puppets out of our politicians? They are not even permitted to preserve their family dignity if it does not serve the purposes of the special interests.

[Derek2U]

#1 ... Happy Sunday Jan 11 ... #2.... Formula... I typed this idea:
Odds Used As U Often Do Needs Work. Why? Cause ur using
odds as a "Discriminant Variable" and the way ur data was gotten was NOT in sync w/ that & so ur results would play right
into Mr Chance's grasping hands..... #3...Just Ralph ... ah Mr JR,
and ALL U political heads, Lighten Up. The world is NOT naturally divided into RIGHT vs LEFT. Think about it b4 u type. U can slice most of us a lotta ways & the few that r mono-brained, well, hey, get happy. Rightys love being Rightys so much they get soundin
like Britney Spears rappin on physics. And TheLeftys? There
a sensative bunch cause OurMaker created Them that Way & So,
when U attack them U kinda declare War on HIM. #4 ... Lesbians.
Yes, most guys w/juice would pay 2 see 2 or more Lesbians makin
out. It's just 1 of them universal laws like e=mc sqrd. #5 ... Why
don't more of U come into the WarRoom? Just make a entrance.
Give a PICK but explainin it also is Cool. #6 ... The other day I asked 2 capping questions. 1st Q, Whats the danger of REanalysing data from 1 large dataBase? ... hehe I joked by
saying 1 hit wonders .... 2nd Q, Does anyone have a database
of TrackVariants THAT are very good? LAST ......Do Any Of You
Realize What Moment This Is, Right Now? hehe, probly not cause
Most of U are too self-absorbed. Well, Right Now, as I clik the
"Submit Reply" I tallied my 1,000th Hit. hehe lets all toast. djc

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by lsbets
Secretariat,

I've got about a half a second to respond, so I will go to your last comment. I stated I had nothing to back up my feelings about you. If you are appalled by the way that you are perceived, maybe you should look at the way you present yourself. As I said, you never said anything to that extent, but that is the vibe you give off.

...

Let me make one more thing clear to you. Next to my family, there is nothing in the world more important to me than my soldiers. They are my second family, and it is my job to bring them home alive. If they were not getting the equipment that they need to go to combat, I would be on here screaming about it, and my wife would be calling all of our local news outlets. I would not stop until I was relieved or they got what they needed. I take my responsibility to them and their families as seriously as the vows that I said to my wife. Don't think for a second that I would put my political views ahead of the welfare of my soldiers. They come first, and they have the equipment that they need (once again - "NOW" - I'm still trying to figure out what part of now you don't understand)

Even by your own admission you state “I had nothing to back up my feelings about you”, yet you resorted to name-calling and a disgusting derogatory slur. Again, I shall not resort to the same as it is the lowest form of debate.

I disagree with about 90% of the opinions you’ve stated in your posts thus far, but we do agree on one thing. You have been assigned a very important task and that is bringing those soldiers home all alive. I wish you only the best in that task.

[Lefty]

Vet, what about the Trilateralists and the Bilderburghs?

[VetScratch]

I don't know, Lefty... I'm still dazed from last Derek's post. My God, what neck muscles he must have! I have visited therapy centers and watched those poor souls clench the wands in their teeth, then peck away, one letter at a time. Even one sentence is tiring. His last post was a monumental effort... with lots of complete words for a change. :) :) :) :)

[Derek2U]

Thanx VS but I've been clocked typing at over 450 WPM so that
post took only ~2mins in all. djc

[VetScratch]

Lefty,

The Trilateralists emerged in the 60s espousing Rostow's basic ideology that orchestrated global economic development would promote peace and prosperity. This philosophy appeals to folks who believe prosperity purges human nature of its flaws. With regard to conflicts between societies and nations, globally managed sharing of wealth and technology was viewed as a way extinguish the aggressive habits of underdeveloped and immature societies.

The international economic policy implications from this analysis were two-fold: (1) economic trade -- including the transfer of technology -- with the Soviet Union and other Communist nations ought to be expanded; and (2) massive and sustained "external aid would be required to lift all of Asia, the Middle East, Africa, and Latin America into regular growth." The Trilateralists Henry Kissinger and Zbigniew Brzezinski, heirs to Rostow's throne as mentor of aspiring global managers, persistently advocated both such policies.

The Trilateralists went underground and chaffed during the Reagan years, while deriding Reagan's "simplistic" plan to bankrupt Soviet economy rather than elevate it. In retrospect, however, few can argue that Reagan's extraordinary military spending was the straw that broke the camel's back and precipitated the collapse of the Soviet Union, although Trilateralists suddenly resurfaced beginning with Carter, and have dominated our foreign and economic policies in every administration since Reagan.

Free trade agreements disadvanteous to American workers, advocacy for "most favored nation" trading status for China, and gifting $100-billion+ to rebuild Iraq are typical expressions of Trilateralist ideology.

The question that should be asked by Democrats, Republicans, and Independents is how many hours per week must Americans toil to fund Trilateralist experiments in global economic management. Will the transfer of wealth and technology to underdeveloped and/or immature societies really eradicate flaws in human nature that have plagued mankind since the beginning of recorded history? Will prosperity sharing really squelch antagonism among the world's religious and ethnic factions?

[Tom]

Yadda yadda yadda......bottom line is liberals cannot figure out a punch card. Hahahahahahahaha!:eek:

[VetScratch]

Well, Tom, you are working to fund the Trilateralists every day of the week!

One correction:

...few can argue that Reagan's extraordinary military spending was NOT the straw that broke the camel's back and precipitated the collapse of the Soviet Union, although Trilateralists suddenly resurfaced beginning with Carter, and have dominated our foreign and economic policies in every administration since Reagan.

[Lefty]

Vet, we are in agreement about Derek. And when he has a fairly long post I suffer from severe eyestrain.

[Lefty]

Vet, and oh, I figured you were on board with the trilateral conspiracy. But the Bilderburghs preceded them.

What we are all working so hard for is to give more than 60% of our money to all the social engineering fostered upon us by Democrats intent on us being beholden to them and keeping us all on the "Govt Plantation."

[VetScratch]

Lefty,

As invited speakers, Bill Clinton and Tony Blair were groomed at Bilderberg meetings before rising to fame as U.S. President and British Prime Minister, respectively. Bush and Cheney bypassed this initiation by virtue of approval/inclusion in the Carlyle Group, and they have not been observed attending annual Bilderberg meetings, although Powell and Rumsfield are Bilderbergers and are seen by some observers as Cheney/Bush proxies at Bilderberg meetings. Most analysts view the Carlyle Group of power brokers with far more suspicion than the Bilderbergers, whose annual roll call seems to include many theorists.

The Democratic and Republican parties have both been annexed by the global management special interests. We are serving their agenda no matter which way we vote.

[Lefty]

Ok, can't cure a dyed in the wool conspiracy theorist.

[VetScratch]

Lefty,

I hardly consider what is so transparent to be a hidden conspiracy. The agenda of the New World Order power brokers plays out right before our eyes. Only the rhetoric is aimed at suppressing dissent... you are supposed to engage in the political process in the way sports fans are invited to wear team apparel and remain loyal to regional teams while overlooking the effects of free agency roster upheavels and carefully planned revenue sharing among franchises.

So long as you label yourself, you are not a factor in shaping the future, just another fan in the league audience.

[Lefty]

Vet, haven't really heard all this crap since I gave up listening to Chuck Harder. One thing about it, if the trilateralists and bilderbergs trying to take over the world, they are sure doing it slooow.
Darn it, I forgot the Masons. Another group clothed in secrecy and trying to effect world domination.
Like I said, you are too clever by half. The truth is not as fascinating as all these conspiracy theories.

[VetScratch]

Lefty,

There is NO hidden conspiracy... it's a consensus movement, and you are totally immersed in it whether you realize it or not. Here is a partial list those who attended the 2002 annual Bilderberg Meeting in Virginia. None of these folks are hiding from you.

Chantilly, Virginia, U.S.A. ..... 30 May - 2 June 2002

Honorary Chairman: Davignon, Etienne - Vice Chairman, Société Générale de Belgique

USA Allaire, Paul A. - Former Chairman and CEO, Xerox Corporation
CDN Baillie, A. Charles - Chairman and CEO, TD Bank Financial Group
GB Balls, Edward - Chief Economic Advisor to the Treasury
P Balsemao, Francisco Pinto - Professor of Communication Science, New University, Lisbon; Chairman of IMPRESA, S.G.P.S.
F Belot, Jean de - Editor-in-Chief, Le Figaro
USA Bergsten, C. Fred - Director, Institute for International Economics
N Bernander, John G. - Director General, Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation
CDN Black, Conrad M. - Chairman, Telegraph Group Ltd.
INT Bolkestein, Frits - Commissioner, European Commission
P Borges, António - Vice Chairman and Managing Director, Goldman Sachs
USA Boyd, Charles G. - President and CEO, Business Executives for National Security
F Castries, Henri de - Chairman of the Board, AXA
E Cebrián, Juan Luis - CEO, Prisa (El Pais)
F Collomb, Bertrand - Chairman and CEO, Lafarge
CH Couchepin, Pascal - Federal Councillor; Head of the Federal Department of Economic Affairs
GB Dahrendorf, Ralf - Member, House of Lords; Former Warden, St. Antony's College, Oxford
USA Dam, Kenneth W. - Deputy Secretary, US Department of Treasury
GR David, George A. - Chairman of the Board, Coca-Cola H.B.C. S.A.
USA David-Weill, Michel A. - Chairman, Lazard Frères & Co.
TR Dervis, Kemal - Minister of Economic Affairs
USA Deutch, John M. - Institute Professor, MIT
USA Dinh, Viet D. Assistant Attorney General for Office of Policy Development
USA Donilon, Thomas E. - Executive Vice President, Fannie Mae
I Draghi, Mario - Vice Chairman and Managing Director, Goldman Sachs International
USA Eizenstat, Stuart - Covington & Burling
DK Eldrup, Anders - Chairman of the Board of Directors, Danish Oil & Gas Consortium
USA Feldstein, Martin S. - President and CEO, NAtional Bureau of Economic Research
P Ferreira, Elisa Guimaraes - Member of Parliament, Former Minister of Planning
USA Foley, Thomas S. - Partner, Akin, Gump, Strauss, Hauer & Feld
INT Fortescue, Adrian - Director General, Justice and Internal Affairs, European Commission
CDN Frum, David - American Enterprise Institute; Former Special Assistant to President Bush
F Gergorin, Jean-Louis - Executive Vice President, Strategic Coordination, EADS
USA Gigot, Paul A. - Editorial Page Editor, The Wall Street Journal
USA Greenspan, Alan - Chairman, Federal Reserve System
NL Groenink, Rijkman W.J. - Chairman of the Board, ABN AMRO Bank N.V.
A Gusenbauer, Alfred - Member of Parliament; Chairman, Social Democratic Party
NL Halberstadt, Victor - Professor of Economics, Leiden University; Former Honorary Secretary General of Bilderberg Meetings
USA Hills, Carla A. - Chairman and CEO, Hills & Company, International Consultants
USA Hoagland, Jim - Associate Editor, The Washington Post
USA Hubbard, Allan B. - President, E&A Industries
USA Hutchison, Kay Bailey - Senator (Republican, Texas)
B Huyghebaert, Jan - Chairman, Almanij N.V.
D Ischinger, Wolfgang - Ambassador to the US
USA James, Charles A. - Assistant Attorney General for Antitrust
USA Johnson, James A. - Vice Chairman, Perseus, L.L.C.
USA Jordan, Jr., Vernon E. - Managing Director, Lazard Frères & Co. LLC
USA Kissinger, Henry A. - Chairman, Kissinger Associates, Inc.
NL Kist, Ewald - Chairman of the Board ING N.V.
NL Kleisterlee, Gerard J. - President and CEO, Royal Philips Elecronics
D Kopper, Hilmar - Chairman of the Supervisory Board, Deutsche Bank AG
USA Krauthammer, Charles - Columnist, The Washington Post
USA Kravis, Henry R. - Founding Partner, Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co.
USA Kravis, Marie-Josée - Senior Fellow - Hudson Institute Inc.
CH Kudelski, André - Chairman of the Board & CEO, Kudelski Group
USA LaFalce, John J. - Congressman (Democrat, New York)
USA Leschly, Jan - Chairman & CEO, Care Capital LLC
F Lévy-Lang, André - Former Chairman, Paribas
B Lippens, Maurice - Chairman, Fortis
USA Mathews, Jessica T. - President, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace
USA McAuliffe, Terry - Chairman, Democratic National Committee
USA McDonough, William J. - President and CEO, Federal Reserve Bank of New York
E Miguel, Ramón de - Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs
USA Mitchell, Andrea - Chief Foreign Affairs Correspondant, NBC News
F Moïsi, Dominique - Deputy Director, French Institute of International Relations
F Montbrial, Thierry de - Director, French Institute of International Relations
USA Moskow, Michael H. - President, Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago
N Myklebust, Egil - Chairman, Norsk Hydro ASA
FIN Ollia, Jorma - Chairman of the Board and CEO, Nokia Corporation
TR Özaydinlí, Bulend - CEO, Koç Holding A.S.
INT Padoa-Schioppa, Tommaso - Member of the Executive Board, European Central Bank
GR Papahelas, Alexis - Foreign policy columnist. TO VIMA
USA Pearl, Frank H. - Chairman and CEO, Perseus, L.L.C.
USA Perle, Richard N. - Resident Fellow, American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research
D Polenz, Ruprecht - Member of Parliament, CDU/CSU
USA Prestowitz, Jr., Clyde V. - President, Economic Strategy Institute
USA Racicot, Mark - Chairman, Republican National Committee
USA Raines, Franklin D. - Chairman and CEO, Fannie Mae
A Randa, Gerhard - Chairman and CEO, Bank Austria AG
USA Rattner, Steven - Managing Principal, Quadrangle Group LLC
CDN Reisman, Heather - President and CEO, Indigo Books and Music Inc.
USA Rockefeller, David - Member, JP Morgan International Council
E Rodriguez Inciarte, Matías - Executive Vice Chairman, Banco Santander Central Hispano
GB Roll, Eric - Senior Adviser, UBS Warburg Ltd.
USA Rose, Charlie - Producer, Rose Communications
F Roy, Olivier - University Professor and Researcher, CNRS
USA Rumsfeld, Donald H. - Secretary of Defense
TR Sanberk, Özdem - Director, Turkish Economic and Social Studies Foundation
D Schrempp, Jurgen E. - Chairman of the Board of Management, DaimlerChrysler AG
D Schulz, Ekkehard - Chairman, ThyssenKrupp AG
F Schweitzer, Louis - Chairman and CEO, Renault S.A.
DK Seidenfaden, Toger - Editor-in-Chief, Politiken
F Seillière, Ernest-Antoine - Chairman and CEO, CGIP
RUS Shevtsova, Lilia - Senior Associate, Carnegie Moscow Center
USA Siegman, Henry - Council on Foreign Relations
USA Soros, George - Chairman, Soros Fund Management
USA Steinberg, James B. - Vice President and Director, Foreign Policy Studies Program
N Stoltenberg, Jens - Leader of the Opposition (Social Democratic Party)
USA Summers, Lawrence H. - President, Harvard University
IRL Sutherland, Peter D. - Chairman and Managing Director, Goldman Sachs International; Chairman BP Amoco
FIN Taxell, Christoffer - President and CEO, Partek Oyj
USA Thoman, G. Richard - Senior Advisor, Evercore Partners Inc.
USA Thornton, John L. - President and co-CEO, The Goldman Sachs Group Inc.
FIN Tiilikainen, Teija H. - Director of Research, Centre for European Studies
S Treschow, Michael - Chairman, Ericsson
F Trichet, Jean-Claude - Governor, Banque de France
CH Vasella, Daniel L. - Chairman and CEO, Novartis AG
USA Vink, Lodewijk J. R. de - Chairman, Global Health Care Partners; Credit Suisse First
A Vranitzky, Franz - Former Federal Chancellor
S Wallenberg, Jacob - Chairman of the Board, Skandinaviska Enskilda Banken
CDN Whyte, Kenneth - Editor, The National Post
GB Williams, Gareth - Leader, House of Lords; Member of the Cabinet
INT Wolfensohn, James D. - President, The World Bank
D Zumwinkel, Klaus - Chairman of the Board of Management, Deutsche Post AG

[Lefty]

Hmm, if these men are orchestrating our lives from both sides of the political spectrum, then what's with your earlier post that the ignorant shouldn't vote? If it doesn't matter, because they have both sides covered, then it really doesn't matter who votes or doesn't vote. So why worry about who votes?

[VetScratch]

Lefty,

One reason fringe lunatics smell conspiracy is that Bilderberger Andrea Mitchel, Chief Foreign Affairs Correspondant, NBC News, is Alan Greenspans' wife, but NBC failed to present any coverage of the meeting. In fact, there is no need for a conspiracy when so many Americans have unwittingly volunteered to become global management resources.

[VetScratch]

Lefty,

We are locked in a two-party system where it has become almost impossible to distinguish any remarkable differences. From either party, or as independents, even lukewarm reform candidates get painted as troublemakers by a barrage of sound-bite newscasts and advertisements. In very subtle ways, this is what happened to McCain and Bradley, neither of whom could be considered as true revolutionaries.

[PaceAdvantage]

So, what Lefty said about your voting ideas is true then, correct? By your most recent logic, it doesn't matter who is allowed to vote.

[Shacopate]

reminds me of an old Monty Python sketch.

"I'm looking for an arguement."

"I'm sorry, you have to try down the hall, this is getting hit on the head lessons here."

[VetScratch]

PA,

If all lethargic voters stayed away from the polls, candidates would be less inclined to become indebted to special interest groups that deliver uninformed votes by virtue of massive contributions for media blitzes and organized constituencies that pay little attention to the full spectrum of issues at stake.

Succesful national candidates have to sell virtually all of their intellectual shares in order to put together a winning coalition of special interests.

Do you keep track of the legislative voting records of candidates that you helped elect?

[VetScratch]

Shacopate,Originally posted by Shacopate
reminds me of an old Monty Python sketch.
"I'm looking for an arguement."
"I'm sorry, you have to try down the hall, this is getting hit on the head lessons here." Before 2003, I lived where we received TV via C-band satellite instead of cable. On one of the wild feed transponders, I found a tape loop of the legendary Monty Python Dead Parrot skit being repeated over and over. Watched it for two hours and was still laughing at the end. Fortunately, BBCAM is on cable here, so I still occasionally see Python skit reruns.

Our current account deficit (trade deficit) for 2003 has been estimated at $550-billion. This means that American assets are being transferred into foreign hands at the rate of approximately $50-billion per month. To me, it seems stupid to ask American taxpayers to gift $100-billion to rebuild Iraq when our traditional Western allies as well as China, Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan have amassed huge dollar reserves in order to prop up the value of our currency in order to maintain favorable foreign exchange rates that bolster their trade advantages and promote even greater current account deficits in the future.

In between Python reruns, do you ever think about such matters?

[hcap]

Since the story broke about former treasury secretary O"Neil describing Bush as "a blind man in a room full of deaf people.", we've heard Bush's defenders claim that was his "management style". What does he manage,? The question should be -what does Cheny et al LEAVE him to manage?
And so far none of the biggies in the administration have stood up to defend their uncurious pres---

From the Talking Points memo-Josh Marshall January 11, 2004 -- 07:54 PM
"Oh, they can do better than that, can't they? CNN's headline story on the O'Neill story reads: "Cabinet members defend Bush from O'Neill"
And then, when you click through, it turns out the cabinet members are Don Evans (the president's Texas crony and political fixer) and John Snow (O'Neill's tepidly respected successor at Treasury). None of the bigs? That's all? No Colin? We're Rummyless?"


The whole thing, as well as the rest of the controlled pr releases about Bushs'
leadership reminds me of the emperors' new clothes.

from "The Emperor's New Clothes"---

Everyone said, loud enough for the others to hear: "Look at the Emperor's new clothes. They're beautiful!"
"What a marvellous train!"

"And the colors! The colors of that beautiful fabric! I have never seen anything like it in my life!" They all tried to conceal their disappointment at not being able to see the clothes, and since nobody was willing to admit his own stupidity and incompetence, they all behaved as the two scoundrels had predicted.

A child, however, who had no important job and could only see things as his eyes showed them to him, went up to the carriage.

"The Emperor is naked," he said.

"Fool!" his father reprimanded, running after him. "Don't talk nonsense!" He grabbed his child and took him away. But the boy's remark, which had been heard by the bystanders, was repeated over and over again until everyone cried:

"The boy is right! The Emperor is naked! It's true!"

The Emperor realized that the people were right but could not admit to that. He though it better to continue the procession under the illusion that anyone who couldn't see his clothes was either stupid or incompetent. And he stood stiffly on his carriage, while behind him a page held his imaginary mantle.

I strongly believe we are subjects of a marketing experiment being run by so far, an ineficient 1984 corporate and govermental apparatus.

http://www.prwatch.org/spin/December_2003.html#1072242000
Monday, December 1, 2003

Pushing the Brain's "Buy Button"
Commercial Alert and prominent psychology experts sent a letter today to Emory University President James Wagner, requesting that Emory stop conducting neuromarketing experiments on human subjects. Neuromarketing (http://www.commercialalert.org/index.php/category_id/1/subcategory_id/82/article_id/202) is a controversial new field of marketing that maps the brain's activation responses in order prod desires for particular products. It seeks, in the words of Forbes magazine, to "find a buy button inside the skull." (http://www.commercialalert.org/index.php/external/true/article_id/209) According to the Commercial Alert letter, this marketing technique "sounds like something that could have happened in the former Soviet Union, for the purposes of behavior control. Yet it is happening right here in America." Source: Commercial Alert, December 1, 2003

Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?

[Larry Hamilton]

An old man approached the White House from the park across Pennsylvania
Avenue where he'd been sitting on a park bench. He spoke to the US Marine
standing guard and said, "I'd like to go in and meet with President Clinton."

The Marine looked at the man and said, "Sir, Mr. Clinton is no longer
president and no longer resides here."

The old man said, "Okay" and walked away. The following day, the same
man approached the White House and said to the same Marine, "I would like to
go in and meet with President Clinton."

The Marine again told the man, "Sir, Mr. Clinton is no longer president
and no longer resides here."

The man thanked him and again, just walked away. The third day, the same
man approached the White House and spoke to the very same US Marine,
saying "I would like to go in and meet with President Clinton."

The Marine, understandably agitated at this point, looked at the man and
said, "Sir, this is the third day in a row you've been here asking to speak
to Mr. Clinton. I've told you already that Clinton is no longer president
and no longer resides here. Don't you understand?"

The old man looked at the Marine and said, "Oh, I understand. I just love
hearing it."

THE MARINE SNAPPED TO ATTENTION,
SALUTED AND SAID, "SEE YOU TOMORROW, SIR!"

[hcap]

Hey Larry a postcard from home


http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/rover-images/jan-10-2004/mosaic-380-280.jpg

George W. Bush' s Top Ten Reasons for Building a Permanent Moon Base

10. To serve as a stepping stone to Mars.

9. I know something about global warming that you don't.

8. We need a solution for "No Child Left Behind" that doesn't involve money actually going to schools. We won't leave any child behind.

7. Some of my corporate benefactors need to move "really" offshore for tax purposes.

6. Rummy said it's where Saddam hid the WMD.

5. Condi said I'd need a nice secure place for my presidential library.

4. Halliburton just opened a space mining subsidiary.

3. Nice Palestinian homeland, don'cha think?

2. Guantanamo is getting too crowded.

1. When y'all find out the truth you will probably chase me off the planet.

:cool: :cool:

[hcap]

Some of our neighbors


http://www.witchfondler.com/mars-osama/mars-osama.jpg

[MarylandPaul@HSH]

Originally posted by hcap
Pushing the Brain's "Buy Button"

This just just the silliest thing I've ever {..must buy Mike Warren systems..} heard. To think that anyone's mind can be controlled to that {..ooo, RPM catalog...where's my visa?..} extent is crazy.

[Lefty]

Actually, Vet, the media LOVED McCain and painted him as the saviour of the Republican Party. Meanwhile the media painted Bush as a dumb texan clinging to his daddy's coattails. The public didn't buy it.
And Almost is right. There used to the Whigs and Torries. So other parties can emerge. Right now, the public, who you denigrate, is satisfied with the 2 party system.

[hcap]

MarylandPaul@HSH"This just just the silliest thing I've ever {..must buy Mike Warren systems..} heard. To think that anyone's mind can be controlled to that {..ooo, RPM catalog...where's my visa?..} extent is crazy."

http://www.commercialalert.org/index.php/category_id/1/subcategory_id/82/article_id/211

'Neuromarketing is a controversial new field of marketing which uses functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging (fMRI) – a medical technology -- not to heal, but to sell products. A BrightHouse Institute for Thought Sciences news release issued June 22, 2002 explains that it uses fMRI “to identify patterns of brain activity that reveal how a consumer is actually evaluating a product, object or advertisement. Thought Sciences marketing analysts use this information to more accurately measure consumer preference, and then apply this knowledge to help marketers better create products and services and to design more effective marketing campaigns.”

Why is this silly? Just the latest better mousetrap in advertising and PR
The guys with the money/power are always advancing the latest technology--computers, defense, and like it or not, public manipulation.
Whether corporate--the old bottom line, or government--herding the sheep into an illusionary pasture, we are on the bottom of the food chain.

Already monkeys are controlling computer interfaces with electrodes attached to their brain. Neurological studies are improving by scientific and technological feedback not available when Pavlov first taught dogs to salivate by conditioned response.

If only Pavlov was alive today.

"What the neuromarketing research “really does” according to Adam Koval of the BrightHouse Institute, “is give unprecedented insight into the consumer mind. And it will actually result in higher product sales or in brand preference or in getting customers to behave the way they want them to behave.”

The risks of this research are obvious, as is the moral repulsiveness. The benefits are more questionable, except to corporations such as Coca-Cola.

"Thought Sciences researchers took a picture of the volunteer’s brain and compared the response of the brain to the response on the survey. From the results, the researchers pinpointed the preference area of the brain. Using this data, the Thought Sciences team can now help their client to design better products and services and a more effective marketing campaign."

You don't think that maybe, just maybe developments along these lines are not ALREADY being used by anyone with enough money/power to take advantage of the situation?

Does the name Pavlov ring a bell??

[hcap]

Ain't cheap-who finances these studies?
Follow the money.

http://www.commercialalert.org/index.php/external/true/article_id/208

Financial Times, November 28, 2003

Peering into the consumer's brain in this way is not cheap. Use of an MRI scanner that generates moving pictures costs about Dollars 1,000 an hour, while a single experiment involving 12 subjects can cost Dollars 50,000. The fee for a recent study by Brighthouse, with 30 subjects viewing images ranging from rock climbing and President George W. Bush to BMWs and the National Enquirer, was Dollars 250,000."

"But the promise of neuromarketing is alluring and, rightly or wrongly, we may yet see political focus groups swept away as volunteers are herded into scanners to see which politicians tickle their medial prefrontal cortexes."

[VetScratch]

Originally posted by Lefty
Actually, Vet, the media LOVED McCain and painted him as the saviour of the Republican Party.McCain was certainly liked by some elements of the press and folks who want to see campaign reforms. At the same time, I think other reporters were aware that focus groups had revealed some worries about McCain's POW experiences with respect to the Presidency. As I recall, either men or women (one or the other), tended to think a POW experience would carry residual problems or produce abnormal behavior.

[MarylandPaul@HSH]

*sigh*.....I was being funny! Damn, I hate it when I have to explain jokes...

Ok, you believe this is a serious issue? That Madison ave. can target our purchasing epicenter, turning us into free-spending zombies? Guess what....show me a picture of a Lexus SC400 and my brain will light up their CAT scans. But guess what happens after that? Rational thought kicks in. The part of my brain that houses common sense tells me that I'd have to live in the back seat of that Lexus if I bought it.

Your first quoted paragraph explains it nicely:
Thought Sciences marketing analysts use this information to more accurately measure consumer preference

Seems innocuous to me. You're only a sheep if you allow yourself to be one.

[hcap]

"Sheepness" is relative.
Free spending Zombies don't have be zombies most of the time for directed spending to take place. Neuromarketing is going to be the new kid on the PR block

Not all of us use our rational thought centers all of the time.

"Insights into decision making and emotions are ripe for exploitation. Take the prefrontal cortex, an area that plays a key role in levelheaded decision making and long-term goals. It takes years to develop and then starts to lose some of its swagger when we're in our late 50s. That means kids under 12 and older people are more susceptible to urges that come from the amygdala, the emotional hot button in our heads. It responds to threats, emotional communication and sexual imagery--some of the stuff we see or hear in ads and other marketing ploys. The cookies on the low shelf in the grocery store are aimed at the 5-year-old's amygdala; an investment scam is aimed at the amygdala of a retiree. "By understanding the development of the prefrontal cortex, companies can market things in different ways," says Jordan Grafman, chief of the Cognitive Neuroscience Section of the National Institute of Neurological Disorders & Stroke at the National Institutes of Health. "There may be certain combinations of pitches they can use to appeal to the amygdala and prefrontal cortex. Or, if they know the age range of people watching a TV show, they can change a commercial to target them in different ways."


117 billion was spent last year on advertising in the U.S., not to mention $6.8 billion on, among other things, focus groups, opinion polling and ad and market tracking

By the way, RPM is quite succesful at selling junk. Why? Dave Powers understands THE PROMISE of a Lexus
puts some of us in dreamland far enough to reach for the ole' credit card

I also as most reasonably rational folks, can resist the "consumer" herd mentality, but my main concern is our bought and paid for corporate government using these and other existing pr techniques to herd us into the barn. So far a dumbed-down 1984.
The tools are not yet efficient.

YET

[MarylandPaul@HSH]

Ok, I'll submit that the technology could reach a level of concern if they really discover ways to trigger urges.

Gotta go....the doorbell just rang, and I'm sure it's Domino's delivering me a Philly Cheesesteak pizza...

[VetScratch]

Neuromarketing Experiments

Discriminating Buyers Will Still Triumph!

The VW Passat, Audi A4, and one Euro-only Mercedes model share the same exact platform. Curiously, the VW Passat and Audi use an Audi engine while the Mercedes uses a VW engine.

However, when you cram all three with Kit Kat warppers and empty Smirnoff bottles, the Passat clearly offers the best container value!

[hcap]

Discriminating Buyers?

What happens when your discriminating
teenager decides he/she has to HAVE the latest MTV trend, drummed into their psyche by relentless record industry marketing types and their crap videos?
Or your five year old temper tantruming down isle 5 in the supermarket reaching for the cookies they saw having an animated dance on the saturday morning cartoon choreographed by some relentless kid marketing type?

I know smack some sense into them and knock some discrimination into their muddled brain!!

Emory University is using federal funds and university property (a la corporate welfare) to benefit the
Brighthouse Institute for Thought Sciences
Sounds creepy, like the junked "Total Information Awareness" department idea.

"The real risk of neuromarketing research is to the people – including children – who are the real targets of this research. Already, marketing is deeply implicated in a host of pathologies. The nation is in the midst of an epidemic of marketing-related diseases. Our children are suffering from extraordinary levels of obesity, type 2 diabetes, anorexia, bulimia, and pathological gambling, while millions will eventually die from the marketing of tobacco. Such illnesses affect also the population at large, as does chronic debt that people incur to support the consumption that the marketing industry encourages."

[hcap]

Commercial Alert is the organization fighting federal funding for Emerory U.

http://www.commercialalert.org/

This is their mission statement

"Commercial Alert's mission is to keep the commercial culture within its proper sphere, and to prevent it from exploiting children and subverting the higher values of family, community, environmental integrity and democracy."

"We believe that children and communities are more important than corporate profits."

hcap

[VetScratch]

Originally Posted By MarylandPaul,
Gotta go....the doorbell just rang, and I'm sure it's Domino's delivering me a Philly Cheesesteak pizza...Here it is again, same code words ("cheesesteak pizza"), this time from MarylandPaul but historically planted by a variety of posters. Of course each time it appears, a search for previous occurrences comes up empty, so it is obviously getting purged to cover the trail after each plant. How many others recall "cheesesteak pizza" popping up prior to a significant event?

First strike hits Baghdad bunker,
Funny Cide loses the Belmont,
JustRalph is mysteriously tranferred back to Ohio,
Mandella wins 3 of 6 in huge BC Pick-Six,
Saddam is captured, and
more...

What will tomorrow's news reveal?

What about this, PA? I think we deserve an explanation.

[Tom]

Originally posted by hcap
Some of our neighbors


http://www.witchfondler.com/mars-osama/mars-osama.jpg


So....there is no intelligent life on Mrs after all!:D

[Tom]

I like Derek.
I like to read his posts.
Some of them have to be deciphered.
But at least, after I figure out what he has to say,
he has something to say.
Now, Vetscratch,.......

Ooops. Gotta run. I hear a chopper over my house. I am sure it a black helicopter delivering my cheesesteak pizza.

:rolleyes:

[GameTheory]

Interesting observation Tom --

Derek -- impossible to read, total vomit all over the screen, but usually with a point in there somewhere.

VS -- easy to read, very articulate, but with no point whatsoever -- total smokescreen

If only we could meld them somehow...

[Jaguar]

VS, interesting post, but you mentioned 4-cylinder cars. They tend to lack torque and acceleration. A 6cyl. vehicle would not tend to slow down as much on hills and would be quicker on highway access ramps. More enjoyable to drive.

At highway speeds the gas mileage differential between a 4-cyl. and a 6-cyl. car is not that great.

Overall, if I can't have a v-8 engine, I'll always choose a 6-cyl. over a 4-cylinder engine. The 6-cyl. Audi is probably a car you would approve of, nice design and well-made- though pricey.

If I had my druthers, I'd order the 05 Ford Mustang GT. Good looking and great performance. Not up to Cobra levels of get-up-and-go, but still plenty of Moxie. Enough to make a man smile from here to Monday morning.

Middle-aged male Volvo drivers will weep when they catch sight of the new GT.

All The Best,

Jaguar

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by VetScratch

JustRalph is mysteriously tranferred back to Ohio



I can answer this one........no conspiracy here. I have a gorgeous wife who has a knack for getting promoted in her job every couple of years (this time she did it in just a year) and they keep throwing New Cars and more money at her. After 18 years with her there is no way I am bailing out now. I am hoping for Vegas in the next move. If we time it right we can move there just in time to cash in the stock options and take part in the "No state Tax" Sweepstakes that is Nevada.

You guys are too hard on Vettie....... I don't agree with her on everything...........but she damn sure knows how to get her point across. Now Derek............ I don't know.......... us UnEDuCated 4wheelDrivin Righties sureenuff can't CiPher his PosTes. It's HaRD2See Da ComputeerTVsCreenThruDaRebelFlag and GunRACk onMaDeSK

[Tom]

Originally posted by GameTheory
Interesting observation Tom --

Derek -- impossible to read, total vomit all over the screen, but usually with a point in there somewhere.

VS -- easy to read, very articulate, but with no point whatsoever -- total smokescreen

If only we could meld them somehow...


Derek just got married. Too bad he didn't meet Vet sooner :rolleyes:

I can just see the child they would produce!
Vet2U?
Derek2Scratch?
It boggles the mind!
:confused:

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Tom
Derek just got married. Too bad he didn't meet Vet sooner :rolleyes:

I can just see the child they would produce!
Vet2U?
Derek2Scratch?
It boggles the mind!
:confused:

Now that's a Breeding Conundrum! Whatever it would be, it would look good in a bathing suit, huh Tom!

I would go with..........

Scratch2Derek4U