Red Ink Creeps Into Another Green Company

[boxcar]

First, two links from the lamestream media:

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_southeast_valley/tempe/first-solar-lays-off-2000-workers-in-tempe

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-first-solar-20120417,0,4703561.story

Now a link to a more honest news source reporting on the same story. It will become apparent to most (or maybe just "many") what component has conveniently been omitted from the first two versions of this story.

http://newsok.com/doe-backed-solar-company-lays-off-2000/article/feed/371754

This is, yet, another government-"invested" green company that is about to go belly-up, in all likelihood. Obama keeps talking about how we need to invest more of OUR tax money in this, that or some other greenie thing, yet one tax-payer funded green investment after another seems to find itself eventually swimming in red ink. Losing investments recommended and made by the Loser-in-Chief... :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[badcompany]

Hey, man. Solar is the future.:lol:


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-17/first-solar-will-cut-30-of-jobs-shut-german-malaysian-plants.html

First Solar Will Cut 30% of Workforce, Shutter Plants

By Christopher Martin and Benjamin Haas - Apr 17, 2012 1:03 PM ET

First Solar Inc. (FSLR), the largest thin- film panel maker, will cut 30 percent of its workforce, about 2,000 jobs, as demand in Europe slows faster than the company can expand in emerging markets in Asia. The shares surged.

[whiptastic]

This is, yet, another government-"invested" green company that is about to go belly-up, in all likelihood. Obama keeps talking about how we need to invest more of OUR tax money in this, that or some other greenie thing, yet one tax-payer funded green investment after another seems to find itself eventually swimming in red ink. Losing investments recommended and made by the Loser-in-Chief... :rolleyes:

Boxcar

One of the biggest problems with domestic solar panel manufacturers is that they are getting creamed by the Chinese companies. They regularly dump panels at below manufacturing cost and their government manipulates the currency to their benefit as well. I guess I don't really have a problem with the DOE backing loans to domestic manufacturers given that this is clearly not a level playing field. The SBA has similar loan backing for other manufacturers.

[mostpost]

Hey, man. Solar is the future.:lol:


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-17/first-solar-will-cut-30-of-jobs-shut-german-malaysian-plants.html

First Solar Will Cut 30% of Workforce, Shutter Plants

By Christopher Martin and Benjamin Haas - Apr 17, 2012 1:03 PM ET

First Solar Inc. (FSLR), the largest thin- film panel maker, will cut 30 percent of its workforce, about 2,000 jobs, as demand in Europe slows faster than the company can expand in emerging markets in Asia. The shares surged.

Your first sentence tells the whole story. The whole attitude of the right is that innovation like solar or wind is a fad and will not work. Then you wonder why Solar companies are not doing well. The answer is simple. It is the propaganda campaign against any new technology.

[mostpost]

One of the biggest problems with domestic solar panel manufacturers is that they are getting creamed by the Chinese companies. They regularly dump panels at below manufacturing cost and their government manipulates the currency to their benefit as well. I guess I don't really have a problem with the DOE backing loans to domestic manufacturers given that this is clearly not a level playing field. The SBA has similar loan backing for other manufacturers.
We will never sustain a solar technology unless we reinstate tariffs on products coming in from abroad, especially China.

[badcompany]

One of the biggest problems with domestic solar panel manufacturers is that they are getting creamed by the Chinese companies. They regularly dump panels at below manufacturing cost and their government manipulates the currency to their benefit as well. I guess I don't really have a problem with the DOE backing loans to domestic manufacturers given that this is clearly not a level playing field. The SBA has similar loan backing for other manufacturers.

To put it another way, the Chinese government is subsidizing American consumers, yet Solar is still just serves a niche market. It speaks volumes that solar, barring a radical technological innovation will not supply a significant amount of electricity generation.

[badcompany]

Your first sentence tells the whole story. The whole attitude of the right is that innovation like solar or wind is a fad and will not work. Then you wonder why Solar companies are not doing well. The answer is simple. It is the propaganda campaign against any new technology.

That you think a windmill is a new technology shows how your mind has been warped by lefist propaganda.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windmill

A windmill used to generate electricity is commonly called a wind turbine. The first windmills for electricity production were built by the end of the 19th century by Prof James Blyth in Scotland (1887),[29][30] Charles F. Brush in Cleveland, Ohio (1887–1888)[31][32][33] and Poul la Cour in Denmark (1890s). La Cour's mill from 1896 later became the local powerplant of the village Askov. By 1908 there were 72 wind-driven electric generators in Denmark from 5 kW to 25 kW. By the 1930s windmills were widely used to generate electricity on farms in the United States where distribution systems had not yet been installed, built by companies like Jacobs Wind, Wincharger, Miller Airlite, Universal Aeroelectric, Paris-Dunn, Airline and Winpower and by the Dunlite Corporation for similar locations in Australia.

[whiptastic]

To put it another way, the Chinese government is subsidizing American consumers, yet Solar is still just serves a niche market. It speaks volumes that solar, barring a radical technological innovation will not supply a significant amount of electricity generation.

I don't look at it that way. China is trying hard to get away from the 'assembly for hire' model and into the 'dominate new technology' model. They have no problem cheating to get to that end, if it means they can short cut their way to the finish line. In that sense, they are trying their best to dominate the solar market, which is going to be a very significant part of the energy game in the up coming decades. If we as a country allow this to happen, we will be fighting for scraps in the middle of the heap. This is why I don't have a problem with the DOE guaranteeing loans to expand and assist our domestic solar industry. It may be somewhat of a niche market now, but it won't be in a decade or so.

[DJofSD]

Solar energy dominating? Sounds like the same BS I heard for fuel cell cars.

[badcompany]

I don't look at it that way. China is trying hard to get away from the 'assembly for hire' model and into the 'dominate new technology' model. They have no problem cheating to get to that end, if it means they can short cut their way to the finish line. In that sense, they are trying their best to dominate the solar market, which is going to be a very significant part of the energy game in the up coming decades. If we as a country allow this to happen, we will be fighting for scraps in the middle of the heap. This is why I don't have a problem with the DOE guaranteeing loans to expand and assist our domestic solar industry. It may be somewhat of a niche market now, but it won't be in a decade or so.

You're another one who acts like solar is "new." It's not. The government has been studying it for almost forty years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Renewable_Energy_Laboratory

Meanwhile, the projections have invariably been overly optimistic. In a decade we'll hear the same song and dance you're giving us, now.

Solar can be of use to a homeowner who wants to save a few bucks on his electric bill. That's why it's important that the panels be as cheap as possible, enter the Chinese. However, barring radical innovation, Solar or Wind CANNOT supply electricity to major population centers.

[boxcar]

Your first sentence tells the whole story. The whole attitude of the right is that innovation like solar or wind is a fad and will not work. Then you wonder why Solar companies are not doing well. The answer is simple. It is the propaganda campaign against any new technology.

Really? Talk is trumping money? Whatever happened to, "Money talks and everything else walks"? :rolleyes:

The state is trying to do another con job on us by jamming this stuff down Americans' throats like it did with ObaminationCare. But it isn't working. No one wants to ride around on skateboards, change out to $60. light bulbs or invest in a technology that takes more energy to create than what it will produce and even save consumers over time. I had solar once. No big deal. Minimal savings. I was glad to get rid of the butt ugly eyesore panels from my roof. Even the enlightened Europeans don't want to touch solar. They have seen the light. :lol: :lol:

Boxcar

[Tom]

The only think that can compete with coal and oil is nuclear power.

Green crap is decades away and it will be longer than that if the government keeps getting involved. The only way green energy succeeds is it becomes profitable, and the market will determine that, no Obama.

There is a reason we are not using windmills now.

[boxcar]

:lol: :lol: Instead of expanding it's "green" industries, they're turning instead to more conventional and less expensive energy sources. How come so many governments in the world are seeing the folly behind this green energy nonsense, except for BO and his horde of Dem(on)s?

China slows solar, wind expansion undermining White House green PR strategy

[i]The Chinese government dealt the public relations strategy of green technology advocates in the Obama administration a blow last month when Premier Wen Jiabao announced that the state-run economy would stop expanding its wind and solar industries, choosing instead to focus on nuclear, hydroelectric and shale — or fracking — as the energies of the future.

“It is getting tougher and tougher for the Obama administration to argue that somehow we’re in this big race for green power worldwide when the rest of the world seems to have decided that the race isn’t worth winning,” Daniel Kish, the senior vice president for policy at the Institute for Energy Research, told The Daily Caller.[/quote]

http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/14/china-slows-solar-wind-expansion-undermining-white-house-green-pr-strategy/

Obama is obviously delusional.

Boxcar

[badcompany]

:lol: :lol: Instead of expanding it's "green" industries, they're turning instead to more conventional and less expensive energy sources. How come so many governments in the world are seeing the folly behind this green energy nonsense, except for BO and his horde of Dem(on)s?



China slows solar, wind expansion undermining White House green PR strategy









[i]The Chinese government dealt the public relations strategy of green technology advocates in the Obama administration a blow last month when Premier Wen Jiabao announced that the state-run economy would stop expanding its wind and solar industries, choosing instead to focus on nuclear, hydroelectric and shale — or fracking — as the energies of the future.

“It is getting tougher and tougher for the Obama administration to argue that somehow we’re in this big race for green power worldwide when the rest of the world seems to have decided that the race isn’t worth winning,” Daniel Kish, the senior vice president for policy at the Institute for Energy Research, told The Daily Caller.


Boxcar[/QUOTE]

Truth is the Chinese were never gung ho over green energy. They've been building Coal and Hydro plants all the while.

Solar panels were just part of an unsustainable mercantilist strategy that the Chinese are now abandoning.

[badcompany]

There is a reason we are not using windmills now.

They do have some profitable uses:

http://www.djphantom.com/Pics/MiniGolf2.jpg

[Robert Goren]

Solar power has a long way to go before it becomes a viable energy source. The technology isn't there yet. Germany who had a big push to incorporate solar energy in to it electrical production is cutting back on its efforts. I think the country that develops a viable solar technology first will have sizable economic advantage for a while. The problem is that it maybe 40 or 50 years before anybody does. Right now the US government is probably sending too much money on solar energy, but it should spend some. We can't afford not to have a foot in the door in case there is a a breakthrough. But most of our efforts right now need to go into developing natural gas. Recently developed technologies have made it possible to harvest it very cheaply compared to the cost of getting crude oil and coal. The nice thing about natural gas is that we have an almost limitless supply in this country in easy to get at locations. It now is only matter of switching over to it use. That is beginning to happen in the production of electrical power at least in some of the power plants that produce power for this region of the country.

[boxcar]

Solar power has a long way to go before it becomes a viable energy source. The technology isn't there yet. Germany who had a big push to incorporate solar energy in to it electrical production is cutting back on its efforts. I think the country that develops a viable solar technology first will have sizable economic advantage for a while. The problem is that it maybe 40 or 50 years before anybody does. Right now the US government is probably sending too much money on solar energy, but it should spend some. We can't afford not to have a foot in the door in case there is a a breakthrough. But most of our efforts right now need to go into developing natural gas. Recently developed technologies have made it possible to harvest it very cheaply compared to the cost of getting crude oil and coal. The nice thing about natural gas is that we have an almost limitless supply in this country in easy to get at locations. It now is only matter of switching over to it use. That is beginning to happen in the production of electrical power at least in some of the power plants that produce power for this region of the country.

So, if you had limited funds to invest, would solar or wind power technologies be your top choices?

Boxcar

[Greyfox]

Your first sentence tells the whole story. The whole attitude of the right is that innovation like solar or wind is a fad and will not work. Then you wonder why Solar companies are not doing well. The answer is simple. It is the propaganda campaign against any new technology.

I don't follow your logic.
You are saying because of the propaganda campaign against any new technology Solar companies are not doing well.

I don't buy that.
If something works, it works and it doesn't matter whether or not "propaganda" is put out against it.

If Solar companies are not doing well, there must be another reason and it isn't propaganda.

[Tom]

Then you wonder why Solar companies are not doing well. The answer is simple. It is the propaganda campaign against any new technology.

Nonsense.
How silly can you get?

[Robert Goren]

So, if you had limited funds to invest, would solar or wind power technologies be your top choices?

BoxcarNo, but they would have some priority. We can not afford to a stake in the game if/when those technologies become practical. America did not become the great country it has become by playing catch up when some technology became practical. We have always been among the leaders in developing new technologies, not a country 30 years behind trying to catch up.

[badcompany]

I don't follow your logic.
You are saying because of the propaganda campaign against any new technology Solar companies are not doing well.

I don't buy that.
If something works, it works and it doesn't matter whether or not "propaganda" is put out against it.

If Solar companies are not doing well, there must be another reason and it isn't propaganda.

There is no logic.

The reality is that Solar and Wind, while "unlimited," are extremely inefficient ways to generate electricity, mainly because they aren't concentrated as compared to coal, nat gas, and, especially nuclear. I'll bet Mostpost has never given the slightest bit of thought to how many giant windmills it would take to power a large population center, and what those windmills would do to the landscape.

In addition, wind and solar can't be stored efficiently or transported, and depend on the sun shining and the wind blowing. These aren't left/right opinions. They're scientific facts.

Electricity is generated by moving Electrons on the outer shell of the atom through a conductor. Now, wouldn't using the nucleus of the atom to move those electrons be the natural "progression" of the technology?

[DJofSD]

In addition, wind and solar can't be stored efficiently or transported, and depend on the sun shining and the wind blowing. These aren't left/right opinions. They're scientific facts.

Unless you have a battery farm, all power is consumed as it is generated. Regardless of the source no power is stored.


Electricity is generated by moving Electrons on the outer shell of the atom through a conductor. Now, wouldn't using the nucleus of the atom to move those electrons be the natural "progression" of the technology?
It's the movement of the "holes" left when the electrons are stripped which is what we call electricity.

[badcompany]

Unless you have a battery farm, all power is consumed as it is generated. Regardless of the source no power is stored.




I'm not talking about the power itself, but the means of generating that power: coal and nat gas can be moved and stored. Solar and Wind can't.

[DJofSD]

OK, sorry. Thx for the clarification.

[badcompany]

OK, sorry. Thx for the clarification.

No prob. I'd be interested in hearing CJ's Dad's thoughts on this subject. He's an actual electrician.

I've taken a few electrical courses and can install a dimmer switch, but, my doing a serious wiring job would probably end with a call to the Fire Dept. ;)

[boxcar]

No, but they would have some priority. We can not afford to a stake in the game if/when those technologies become practical. America did not become the great country it has become by playing catch up when some technology became practical. We have always been among the leaders in developing new technologies, not a country 30 years behind trying to catch up.

You need to get up to speed with your president. We are no longer a nation of exceptionalism. We're just a mediocre nation who is now running in the pack of nations -- economically and soon militarily. Even our credit has been downgraded. We're the next Greece of North America.

And what the heck does the doubletalk in your first sentence mean? If you wouldn't invest YOUR personal money, then why should the government invest the taxpayers? Oh, wait...I know...because there is no limit on tax dollars, is there? The government, therefore, can squander away as much money as it wants because taxpayers have very deep pockets, right?

Boxcar

[Tom]

No, but they would have some priority. We can not afford to a stake in the game if/when those technologies become practical. America did not become the great country it has become by playing catch up when some technology became practical. We have always been among the leaders in developing new technologies, not a country 30 years behind trying to catch up.

And we do that through free enterprise and capitalism, not government meddling.

[Robert Goren]

And we do that through free enterprise and capitalism, not government meddling.Oh really, free enterprise and capitalism is going get that pipeline the conservatives want built without the use of imminent domain. I don't think so.

[Tom]

Now you are changing the subject. Is it because you have no competent reply?

You are becoming a drive-by poster.