Final word on the cancellation of "Luck"

[PaceAdvantage]

The cancellation of Luck was plain and utter BULLSHIT! They caved to left-wing PETA pressure, bottom line. Seeing the programming that has recently made its way to HBO, I'm not surprised by this one bit.

The people who say HBO really cancelled Luck because of poor ratings are off base. If HBO was so concerned with ratings, they wouldn't have automatically renewed Luck for season #2 after only one episode had aired of season #1. They would have waited to see how the ratings trended over subsequent episodes...that's IF they were worried about ratings.

This was one of the best racing productions ever made...movie or not...the actual racing scenes were for the most part done AMAZINGLY well. Some of the best "fictional" racing action I have EVER seen caught on film.

Watching this last episode, I literally got angry knowing this was it. How prophetic was Marcus' line near the beginning of Sunday night's finale when they were in their motel room getting ready for the day:

"Wanna know how I feel? Today's the day they take it all away from us."

And that's exactly what PETA did. They royally ****ED us out of one of the best racing productions to EVER evolve out of Hollywood. You will never again have this kind of star power associated with racing.

Dustin Hoffman. Oscar Winner (2).
Eric Roth. Oscar Winner (1).
Michael Mann. Oscar Nominated (4).
Nick Nolte. Oscar Nominated (3).
Joan Allen. Oscar Nominated (3).
David Milch. Emmy Winner (4).
Henry Bronchtein. Emmy Winner (2).

The last half of this first (and only) season was picking up momentum with each and every episode, story-wise. Those of you who bailed early on this show because it was "too hard to hear" or "too confusing to follow" really missed out on something special.

Plus, you made it easier for PETA to get its way, if indeed ratings were the major reason why HBO canned this show...but I refuse to believe that.

Thanks a lot to all you "fans" of racing out there who decided not to support this show as the season progressed.

Can't wait until you whine in some future thread about how racing never gets any "much needed" exposure.

And one last word about PETA. It has recently been reported that PETA KILLS 95 PERCENT OF THE ANIMALS IN ITS CARE.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/02/24/documents-peta-kills-more-than-95-percent-of-pets-in-its-care/

PETA does not dispute this number. In fact, this was their response:PETA told the Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/peta-and-humane-society-attacked-by-reports--but-are-they-real/2012/02/27/gIQAZdR2dR_blog.html) that it does euthanize animals, but only because of “injury, illness, age, aggression, and other problems, because their guardians requested it, or because no good homes exist for them.”Oh really now? How utterly hypocritical of you bastards.

[Let's Roll]

PA,
Thanks for laying it down the way you did. This really is a raw deal to the fans because this was a great show on many levels.

[HoofedInTheChest]

Well said PA (happy belated by the way), they are truly hypocrites and have been for a long time. They bring in over 35 million annually but only 1 million goes to the preservation of animals. I sometimes wonder what the real agenda is because it has nothing to do with animals, they call themselves non profit yet the salaries are outrageous among the staff. They slaughter more animals than the humane society, how f'n ethical is that? Than they have the balls to question the production of LUCK, i am amazed they found the time seeing that cremate more animals than the nazi's! Last year i came across a PETA demonstration downtown and as i walked by i asked if any of them were meat eaters? As expected it went silent.

It is really unfortunate LUCK got taken down, to be honest this was the best series i have seen since The Soprano's, they just don't seem to be putting out good programming for the most part. I am really gonna miss Escalante, loved his personality, "let me know whats what" along with Gus Demitriou, "greatest f*ckin country in the world".... not today it isn't.

I hope by some miracle someone picks up the show, it could truly be a great one, even for non racing fans.

[redshift1]

Plummeting ratings played a big part if the weekly audience was 10M it would still be on.

[PaceAdvantage]

I really would be interested in comparing the ratings of Luck with some other HBO shows of recent times during their first 9 episodes...then see who was cancelled and who wasn't...

HBO would never be so quick to pull the plug on a series with that kind of star power both in front and behind the camera.

People weren't cancelling their subscriptions to HBO because Luck was on...and most certainly people were adding HBO to their lineup to watch the series.

The case that ratings played the major role in the cancellation is a VERY weak one at best...

[HoofedInTheChest]

Look at the ratings of Seinfeld and The Soprano's in their first year, to name a couple off the top of my head..... then get back to me.

Here's a few more....
Cheers
The X Files
The Dick Van Dyck Show
Hill Street Blues
CSI (Las Vegas)
Family Guy
WKRP

[redshift1]

Ratings opened at 1M per episode and quickly dropped to 500k per, I know for sure they also measure the number of times someone time shifts each episode for later viewing and that number may have down as well.


Boardwalk Empire 3M average.

Game of Thrones 2.5M average.

Deadwood 1M when cancelled.

Rome 3M when cancelled.


.

[redshift1]

Look at the ratings of Seinfeld and The Soprano's in their first year, to name a couple off the top of my head..... then get back to me.

Here's a few more....
Cheers
The X Files
The Dick Van Dyck Show
Hill Street Blues
CSI (Las Vegas)
Family Guy
WKRP

Soprano's opened to 3.5M and rose steadily thereafter do I need to research the rest as well? Luck was at half a million and in free-fall.

..

[bigmack]

It was clear from the start they were playing a numbers game with viewership.

I lost interest so don't care to look it up but the numbers you see redshift posting would make any HbO exective 'cave-in' the show with the slightest hint of animal exploitation.

I might have to break my rule of not posting lengthy posts and actually pen a review of the show sometime soon.

From my vantage it was a mess.

[judd]

id rather look at the leggs on danceing :) ;) with the stars

[exactatom]

I wrote Jenny Rees an email about the subject which I will attach here as I do not know where else to put out my thoughts on the subject:


I was watching Luck last night and was thinking how the canceling of the show is a shame for the industry.

I was wondering, doesn't the state of Kentucky have a film commission? This may sound like a crazy idea, but could the local film commission put up a grant to have the show shot here? The storyline could be changed to incorporate Kentucky's beauty, horse farms, etc. Couldn't you fast forward the calendar and bring the storyline to a new season start with the following changes.

1. The Derby is approaching and both Nick Nolte's and Dustin Hoffman's horses are entered. You could incorporate Keeneland into the mix by having both horses go through the Blue Grass as a prep and show off the scenery at Keeneland.
2. A portion of the show could be transitioned away from the racetrack necessitating racetrack scenes involving horses to the farm in which Nolte originally worked. The race scenes could be used from the archives at Churchill and Keeneland through at least the first season as you could follow a trail through Blue Grass, Derby and Stephen Foster.
3. The character that plays Dustin Hoffman's love interest could be rewarded for her fund raising with a job with Old Friends.
4. The injured horse claimed by the Foray Stable man could be sent to be bred in Kentucky. The guys come to visit and decide to stay for the Summer. They also could buy a horse at the sales and you could incorporate that aspect into the show.
5. The slots issue could be raised here in Kentucky. Dustin Hoffman's character could be expanded and you could use the recent issues of a Senate President as plenty of fuel for a script which eventually sees slots get legalized and Hoffman acquiring ownership of a fictitious racetrack.

[castaway01]

Ratings opened at 1M per episode and quickly dropped to 500k per, I know for sure they also measure the number of times someone time shifts each episode for later viewing and that number may have down as well.


Boardwalk Empire 3M average.

Game of Thrones 2.5M average.

Deadwood 1M when cancelled.

Rome 3M when cancelled.


.

I posted this in the other thread, but I'll say it again. You are looking at the ratings too simplistically. This is HBO, not NBC. They make their money on subscriptions, not advertising. However, as far as ratings, what you aren't counting are the DVR viewers, or the viewers of the 20 replays of the show on each of the HBO channels, or the people who watch the show via On Demand. The total number was in the area of 4.5 million viewers per week. But again, that wasn't even the issue.

"Luck" was already renewed for a second season. The show had Oscar and Emmy winners all over it. The show had great reviews from critics. These things are what HBO wants because they're tired of AMC getting all the prestige and awards with "Mad Men" and "Breaking Bad" that they used to get with "The Sopranos" and "The Wire".

If it wasn't for the freak accident where the third horse died and the pressure from PETA, THE SHOW WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN CANCELLED. This is simply a fact---HBO was afraid the bad publicity would lead to people cancelling their subscriptions. That is how they make their money, through subscriptions. They bowed to PETA, and David Milch was extremely pissed off about it (read the DRF interview or various other interviews he's done, like this one).

http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/whats-alan-watching/posts/interview-luck-creator-david-milch-on-the-series-premature-end

I thought it was a very good show that was sometimes slow moving but had a lot of potential to get even better. It's a real shame that it's gone.

[castaway01]

Soprano's opened to 3.5M and rose steadily thereafter do I need to research the rest as well? Luck was at half a million and in free-fall.

..

"The Sopranos" was a huge ratings success, but that is by far the exception to the rule among pay cable programming. Comparing any cable show to "The Sopranos" is going to make the other show look bad, so it's a ludicrious comparison because one show was a cultural phenomenon and the others weren't. HBO would love to get that again but no other show has brought that viewership and they weren't cancelled for it either.

[badcompany]

I posted this in the other thread, but I'll say it again. You are looking at the ratings too simplistically. This is HBO, not NBC. They make their money on subscriptions, not advertising.

You're right. You have to look at the ratings in the context of the talent on the show. This obviously was an abnormally expensive show for HBO to produce. So, bad ratings for a show like this is worse than for a show with a bunch of unknowns working for peanuts.

[blind squirrel]

I watched the show{mostly ON DEMAND}....Ratings for HBO? i subscribed
for LUCK,now i'll cancel..the last show was the best i'd seen..I guess Luck
was the ARAZI of TV Dramas..Oh what could have been! :(

[maddog42]

PA everything you said about the quality of the show is correct. This first (and only) season is destined to become a classic. And you are partially correct about PETA. Lets not forget that at least 2 legitimate horse deaths were caused by production of the show. The militant vegetarianism of PETA bugs the hell out of me, and I have never liked their founder. Ratings and PETA probably pushed this show off the cliff.
I liked this show a lot and REALLY hated to see it go. Many on this board were so quick to judgement on the quality of this show, that it pissed me off. It got better and better.
Happy belated.

[Shelby]

PA, you took what has been in my mind and said it much better than I could.


Literally, every time I think of the show my stomach sinks knowing that there will never be another one.

PETA is nothing but a PITA.

[A. Pineda]

Probably a minority opinion, but I think PITA PETA's part in the cancellation of this series was just the final straw. If you checked entertainment forums around the web, you would learn that the public was far from enamored with the show. Some of the most common comments were:

"I didn't watch the show because I was afraid that the horses would be hurt."

"The horses just run around in a circle. So what?"

"I had no idea what the people were talking about"

" Disjointed and boring."

That pretty much left an audience of just horse racing fans and, apparently, there aren't that many of us left.

For my part, I was initially put off by what I felt was poor writing and a misuse of a couple of excellent actors, namely Hoffman and Farina. To cast a charismatic actor like Farina as a go-fer left me underwhelmed, but he was allowed to expand his role in the final episode, which I thought was very good. Hoffman was adequate in a role that called for much, much, more.

I would have enjoyed the racing scenes more if I had not been distracted by the heads and necks of the runners being yanked back as the riders held them in order for the other horses to pass. Although I could not understand the mumblings of several actors, I skirted that issue by using the "mute" button and reading the subtitles.

If the purpose of "Luck" was to attract new fans to the sport, new viewers to HBO, or garner industry awards, I think that it failed on all counts. However, I would have continued to watch the show, if only for the little scraps it offered in fine performances from actors whom we shall surely see more of in the future.

[Cardus]

Dustin Hoffman. Oscar Winner (2).
Eric Roth. Oscar Winner (1).
Michael Mann. Oscar Nominated (4).
Nick Nolte. Oscar Nominated (3).
Joan Allen. Oscar Nominated (3).
David Milch. Emmy Winner (4).
Henry Bronchtein. Emmy Winner (2).

I thought that Nick Nolte had won an Oscar for "Blue Chips".

[Cardus]

The cancellation of Luck was plain and utter BULLSHIT! They caved to left-wing PETA pressure, bottom line. Seeing the programming that has recently made its way to HBO, I'm not surprised by this one bit.

The people who say HBO really cancelled Luck because of poor ratings are off base. If HBO was so concerned with ratings, they wouldn't have automatically renewed Luck for season #2 after only one episode had aired of season #1. They would have waited to see how the ratings trended over subsequent episodes...that's IF they were worried about ratings.

This was one of the best racing productions ever made...movie or not...the actual racing scenes were for the most part done AMAZINGLY well. Some of the best "fictional" racing action I have EVER seen caught on film.

Watching this last episode, I literally got angry knowing this was it. How prophetic was Marcus' line near the beginning of Sunday night's finale when they were in their motel room getting ready for the day:

"Wanna know how I feel? Today's the day they take it all away from us."

And that's exactly what PETA did. They royally ****ED us out of one of the best racing productions to EVER evolve out of Hollywood. You will never again have this kind of star power associated with racing.

Dustin Hoffman. Oscar Winner (2).
Eric Roth. Oscar Winner (1).
Michael Mann. Oscar Nominated (4).
Nick Nolte. Oscar Nominated (3).
Joan Allen. Oscar Nominated (3).
David Milch. Emmy Winner (4).
Henry Bronchtein. Emmy Winner (2).

The last half of this first (and only) season was picking up momentum with each and every episode, story-wise. Those of you who bailed early on this show because it was "too hard to hear" or "too confusing to follow" really missed out on something special.

Plus, you made it easier for PETA to get its way, if indeed ratings were the major reason why HBO canned this show...but I refuse to believe that.

Thanks a lot to all you "fans" of racing out there who decided not to support this show as the season progressed.

Can't wait until you whine in some future thread about how racing never gets any "much needed" exposure.

And one last word about PETA. It has recently been reported that PETA KILLS 95 PERCENT OF THE ANIMALS IN ITS CARE.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/02/24/documents-peta-kills-more-than-95-percent-of-pets-in-its-care/

PETA does not dispute this number. In fact, this was their response:Oh really now? How utterly hypocritical of you bastards.

From this, do I conclude that you believe that if the ratings were "X"% higher, then PETA's attack would not have caused HBO to cancel the show?

[castaway01]

Probably a minority opinion, but I think PITA PETA's part in the cancellation of this series was just the final straw. If you checked entertainment forums around the web, you would learn that the public was far from enamored with the show. Some of the most common comments were:

"I didn't watch the show because I was afraid that the horses would be hurt."

"The horses just run around in a circle. So what?"

"I had no idea what the people were talking about"

" Disjointed and boring."

That pretty much left an audience of just horse racing fans and, apparently, there aren't that many of us left.

For my part, I was initially put off by what I felt was poor writing and a misuse of a couple of excellent actors, namely Hoffman and Farina. To cast a charismatic actor like Farina as a go-fer left me underwhelmed, but he was allowed to expand his role in the final episode, which I thought was very good. Hoffman was adequate in a role that called for much, much, more.

I would have enjoyed the racing scenes more if I had not been distracted by the heads and necks of the runners being yanked back as the riders held them in order for the other horses to pass. Although I could not understand the mumblings of several actors, I skirted that issue by using the "mute" button and reading the subtitles.

If the purpose of "Luck" was to attract new fans to the sport, new viewers to HBO, or garner industry awards, I think that it failed on all counts. However, I would have continued to watch the show, if only for the little scraps it offered in fine performances from actors whom we shall surely see more of in the future.

There would always be "regular" people who didn't get it, the same as they didn't get "The Sopranos" or "The Wire". That doesn't make the show bad.

I disagree about Dennis Farina. He's usually an overacting scenery-chewer, but here he was reined in (pun intended) to where his work was actually effective.

I agree about the racing sequences sometimes having the horses' reins pulled back, though to be fair the same people who didn't "understand what people were saying" or said the horses ran in a circle also wouldn't know that that was unrealistic.

As far as the mumbling, I somewhat agree. Escalante was hard to understand, but he was fine as an actor and having a racing world that had no Hispanic actors (who may have accents) would have been ludicrous. I don't mean "non-PC", just that these are people in the actual world of horse racing. The whole show had a language of its own, but again, so did various other shows ranked in the best dramas of all times (Sopranos, Wire).

The show would have garnered awards, or at least nominations, before the bad publicity.

[tzipi]

John From Cinncinnati which HBO considered a bust and cancelled.
John From Cinn- 3,000,000 viewers at end.
Luck- 501,000 at the end.


"Update (03/16): Rumors are that 'Luck's cancellation is not (exclusively) the result of the horse accidents, but that it's rather the disappointing follow-up ratings; all subsequent episodes rated more than 50% lower than the pilot. Also, according to the owner of the race track where filming took place, he wanted to end the agreement because the show puts the horse racing business in a bad light. Of course, these are just rumors and they have come out only after the show was cancelled, but it's still food for thought. The truth? That's something we'll never know."


There's NO way in my opinion HBO could keep this show going with horse accidents and horrible viewership. In this buisness ratings are ratings and HBO obviously wants to put money into better (ratings= NEW subscriptions) shows. HBO shows have been cancelled with 2-3 million viewers and Luck had 500,000 and dropping.

[castaway01]

John From Cinncinnati which HBO considered a bust and cancelled.
John From Cinn- 3,000,000 viewers at end.
Luck- 501,000 at the end.


"Update (03/16): Rumors are that 'Luck's cancellation is not (exclusively) the result of the horse accidents, but that it's rather the disappointing follow-up ratings; all subsequent episodes rated more than 50% lower than the pilot. Also, according to the owner of the race track where filming took place, he wanted to end the agreement because the show puts the horse racing business in a bad light. Of course, these are just rumors and they have come out only after the show was cancelled, but it's still food for thought. The truth? That's something we'll never know."


There's NO way in my opinion HBO could keep this show going. In this buisness ratings are ratings and HBO obviously wants to put money into better (ratings= NEW subscriptions) shows. HBO shows have been cancelled with 2-3 million viewers and Luck had 500,000 and dropping.

Again, how could a rating equal a new subscription when you can't watch the show unless you have a subscription?

Also, that rating was for the first run, not the second through 20th runs, the DVR viewings, or the On Demand viewings. You're talking like this is NBC, not HBO.

[tzipi]

Again, how could a rating equal a new subscription when you can't watch the show unless you have a subscription?

Also, that rating was for the first run, not the second through 20th runs, the DVR viewings, or the On Demand viewings. You're talking like this is NBC, not HBO.

Not going to get into it too much. Pointless. You never understand and claim against facts. Not the second episode ratings. These are the last epsiode ratings. Viewership was dropping. Viewership=ratings=buzz=new subcriptions for cable companies like HBO. Go argue and tell all cable companys to stop monitring and mentioning ratings then. Geez

"Beyond the tragic animal deaths, Luck also has been cursed with low ratings: Just 474,000 viewers tuned in Sunday, far lower than the average for the series."

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/entertainment/post/2012/03/hbos-luck-canceled/1

I enjoyed show a bit and love racing but can't argue with HBO's facts and if they dont want to put big money into it anymore and go with another show. That's all.

[tzipi]

Again, how could a rating equal a new subscription when you can't watch the show unless you have a subscription?

Also, that rating was for the first run, not the second through 20th runs, the DVR viewings, or the On Demand viewings. You're talking like this is NBC, not HBO.

Luck is on Sunday nights when everyones home, not Fridays night. Big DVR ratings for sunday nights?

I understand people have DVR's etc but when other shows pull in huge numbers on their initial night runs HBO notices that I guess. Shows like John From Cinn and others had 3,000,000 viewers at the end and that does not include DVR. That's initial run time. So even though Luck had DVR, on demand etc, it's still low rated. Again, I am NOT HBO and just go by the ratings and what they are saying. That's all. ;)

Hey I'd love to have a racing show on again or whatever but this one didn't seem to work between viewership and horses deaths.

[A. Pineda]

Dustin Hoffman. Oscar Winner (2).
Eric Roth. Oscar Winner (1).
Michael Mann. Oscar Nominated (4).
Nick Nolte. Oscar Nominated (3).
Joan Allen. Oscar Nominated (3).
David Milch. Emmy Winner (4).
Henry Bronchtein. Emmy Winner (2).

I thought that Nick Nolte had won an Oscar for "Blue Chips".

Interesting that you post a list that is irrelevant to the discussion. Most actors and filmmakers have participated in box office flops or really terrible films after being successful and having won awards.

Peter Bogdanovich received an Oscar nomination for "The Last Picture Show" in 1972, but also directed "At Long Last Love" in 1975,a debacle which he apologized for.

William Friedkin won an Oscar for "The French Connection" in 1972, and a Golden Globe for "The Exorcist" in 1974. He also directed a huge flop called "Sorcerer" in 1977, and he was nominated for a Razzie in 1981 for "Crusing."

Excellent writer Steve Zaillian won an Oscar for "Schindler's List" in 1994, but also wrote the screenplay for a real dog called "All The King's Men" in 2006.

Heck, some of your favorite horses may have thrown in a clunker or two. Past success may be a good indicator, but it is definitely not a guarantee.

[castaway01]

Not going to get into it too much. Pointless. You never understand and claim against facts. Not the second episode ratings. These are the last epsiode ratings. Viewership was dropping. Viewership=ratings=buzz=new subcriptions for cable companies like HBO. Go argue and tell all cable companys to stop monitring and mentioning ratings then. Geez

"Beyond the tragic animal deaths, Luck also has been cursed with low ratings: Just 474,000 viewers tuned in Sunday, far lower than the average for the series."

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/entertainment/post/2012/03/hbos-luck-canceled/1

I enjoyed show a bit and love racing but can't argue with HBO's facts and if they dont want to put big money into it anymore and go with another show. That's all.

Those are the first-run ratings after the series was cancelled. They again ignore everything else I wrote and all logic as well, but whatever, you wouldn't get it if I wrote it 20 times.

[castaway01]

Luck is on Sunday nights when everyones home, not Fridays night. Big DVR ratings for sunday nights?

I understand people have DVR's etc but when other shows pull in huge numbers on their initial night runs HBO notices that I guess. Shows like John From Cinn and others had 3,000,000 viewers at the end and that does not include DVR. That's initial run time. So even though Luck had DVR, on demand etc, it's still low rated. Again, I am NOT HBO and just go by the ratings and what they are saying. That's all. ;)

Hey I'd love to have a racing show on again or whatever but this one didn't seem to work between viewership and horses deaths.

Yes, people in 2012 use DVRs. Wow, what a relevation.

I love how you ignored that the show is on throughout the week 20 other times, or that the show was renewed for a second season.

I don't know why I bother debating with people who are too dumb to understand TV. It's not low rated and HBO doesn't care about ratings anyway.

[badcompany]

We get it. Only your massive intellect can understand the difference between subscription revenue and advertising revenue.

[castaway01]

We get it. Only your massive intellect can understand the difference between subscription revenue and advertising revenue.

No need to be a prick. My only point is that ratings were not why the show was cancelled. If you're too much of a prick to understand, that's fine, but no need to post.

[badcompany]

No need to be a prick. My only point is that ratings were not why the show was cancelled. If you're too much of a prick to understand, that's fine, but no need to post.

Self awareness isn't your strong point is it? You continually call people dumb and then get butt hurt when someone gives it back to you.

[castaway01]

Self awareness isn't your strong point is it? You continually call people dumb and then get butt hurt when someone gives it back to you.

I called this poster dumb, because he or she is. You seem to want to join the club, so join it. Yeah, I got your pricky "you're dumb" post, but you'd sort of have to refute the facts I'd posted to show me how. Since you haven't, it just points back at you, doesn't it?

[tzipi]

Yes, people in 2012 use DVRs. Wow, what a relevation.

I love how you ignored that the show is on throughout the week 20 other times, or that the show was renewed for a second season.

I don't know why I bother debating with people who are too dumb to understand TV. It's not low rated and HBO doesn't care about ratings anyway.

Oh now it's those are first run ratings, not those are just after 1st episode. Didn't people here list first run ratings of other HBO shows?




Boy you're a smart one. Knocking me and my intelligence? Ok....

So Luck is the ONLY show on HBO Castaway?

Luck is the ONLY HBO show to ever be on Sunday night and shown multiple times during the week? :D

Sunday nights is a big DVR night for a show everyone watches?


Sorry Castaway almost all HBO's big shows have been Sunday nights and shown multiple times during the week and on Demand. First run ratings? Yeah these ratings were horrible compared to all orher shows HBO has had. Have you read any other peoples posts on here about it and about tshows first run ratings? Keep spinning the "first run",etc all you want. In fact blame me and people who are against your opinion as stupid all you want. Doesn't change what happened and why. Not the enemy here.

Yeah you shouldn't debate anyone. You have no idea what you're talking about and think HBO got rid of a huge viewership and big money show just to I don't know...frustrate you ha. Where's your posted letters you should've written to HBO by now telling them they have no idea what they are doing or how to run their company?

[castaway01]

Boy you're a smart one. Knocking me and my intelligence? Ok....

So Luck is the ONLY show on HBO Castaway?

Luck is the ONLY HBO show to ever be on Sunday night and shown multiple times during the week? :D

Sunday nights is a big DVR night for a show everyone watches?


Sorry Castaway almost all HBO's big shows have been Sunday nights and shown multiple times during the week and on Demand. First run ratings? Yeah these ratings were horrible compared to all orher shows HBO has had. Have you read any other peoples posts on here about it and about tshows first run ratings? Keep spinning the "first run",etc all you want. In fact blame me and people who are against your opinion as stupid all you want. Doesn't change what happened and why. Not the enemy here.

Yeah you shouldn't debate anyone. You have no idea what you're talking about and think HBO got rid of a huge viewership and big money show just to I don't know...frustrate you ha. Where's your posted letters you should've written to HBO by now telling them they have no idea what they are doing?

I never said the viewership was huge. I said the ratings were not why the show was cancelled. yes, I know HBO ran other shows on Sunday nights that got better ratings...your point is what? Again, what you say is moronic. Your debate is like saying "Why hasn't "30 Rock" been cancelled when it ran on Thursday nights and "Friends" got 6 times the ratings?" Um, because it's 2012 and not the 1990s.

The rest of it was just to show that "first run" ratings don't mean anything to HBO...none of which your ridiculous last three paragraphs refuted...my letters to HBO? What are you even talking about?

Again, my point was that PETA got the show cancelled...as PA said, as David Milch said...why not text them instead of posting gibberish?

[tzipi]

I never said the viewership was huge. I said the ratings were not why the show was cancelled?

Your debate is like saying "Why hasn't "30 Rock" been cancelled when it ran on Thursday nights and "Friends" got 6 times the ratings?" Um, because it's 2012 and not the 1990s.

The rest of it was just to show that "first run" ratings don't mean anything to HBO...none of which your ridiculous last three paragraphs refuted...my letters to HBO? What are you even talking about?

Again, my point was that PETA got the show cancelled...as PA said, as David Milch said...why not text them instead of posting gibberish?


Yup we're all dumb and posting gibberish. You're not the sharpest tool in the shead Castaway. I guess now we're even ;)

You claimed Luck has a disadvantage saying "Luck is run 20 times a week on HBO". Uhh so is every other show they have had Castaway. You don't get it and never will. You're standing on a claim that EVERY other show HAS/HAD to deal with. Guessing this is the first time ordering and watching HBO for you.

Why didn't "20 times a week" hurt Sopranos,Broadwalk,First Blood, The Wire,etc?? Shouldn't that have hurt their ratings to and made them look like Lucks?

Yeah letters to HBO. Go write how they are going to get huge second run ratings and subscription surge and that they should've never shut down this big show. That's your whole thing here, right? Why talk to us dumb people. Go after HBO. You want to the show back on, right?

[badcompany]

I called this poster dumb, because he or she is. You seem to want to join the club, so join it. Yeah, I got your pricky "you're dumb" post, but you'd sort of have to refute the facts I'd posted to show me how. Since you haven't, it just points back at you, doesn't it?

Here's two stories in major newspapers which indicate that I might be on to something. BTW, my original post regarding the ratings issue was dated before either of these.

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-03-15/news/31198725_1_hbo-horse-deaths-luck
HBO is out of ‘Luck,’ and just in time
RICHARD HUFF
Thursday, March 15, 2012
Let’s be realistic: Had more people cared about HBO’s horse-racing drama “Luck,” killing it wouldn’t have been so easy.
Instead, the controversy over the treatment of horses in the show may have given HBO an easy way out of a series that failed to meet expectations.


http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/entertainmentnewsbuzz/2012/03/hbos-luck-had-was-no-sure-thing-from-get-go.html

The death of a third horse during production made it easy for HBO to pull the plug on its horse-racing drama "Luck." Already renewed for a second season despite very low ratings, "Luck" was quickly becoming the type of vanity project that HBO may no longer have the luxury to indulge.

HBO brass often makes the case that because it is a pay cable channel that carries no advertising, it doesn't have to worry about ratings. That is true to an extent. HBO's billion dollars in profits comes from subscriber fees as well as sales of its content both here and abroad.

However, ratings do indicate whether a show is catching on with HBO's audience. HBO has close to 30 million subscribers. It is a number that has not been growing in recent years (while its competitors Showtime and Starz have added subscribers) and, in a tough economy, all pay cable channels have to be worried that frugal consumers may decide to save a few bucks.

[tzipi]

So PETA took down big money, big company HBO? C'mon. Why didn't PETA take down small time Animal Planet and their Mike Tyson Pigeon racing show? PETA said it will never air if they get their way. It aired of course. So did Jockeys.

http://digitaljournal.com/article/289390

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/03/09/peta-protests-mike-tysons-pigeon-racing-tv-show/



Why didn't Tyson and Animal planet fold?
Why didn't fishing shows on discovery channels fold?
Why didn't the Triple Crown fold?
Why didn't Jockeys fold?
Why didn't other spotlight shows fold to PETA?
Just big powerful HBO did??

If HBO has a winner and money maker on their hands, they look at PETA and say they couldn't even shut down other shows for the same reasons and no one boycotted those shows, so why are we HBO going to fold? No way, they folded for another reason. IMO

[tzipi]

USA channel and Westminister has never folded to these people even after years of PETA rants. Check out the PETA tactics and garb. No one cares about these "people". Either did HBO. Wish show was still on but refuse to believe PETA thing. No way.

THE KKK :eek: Please.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/2009-02-09-peta-westminster-kkk-protest_N.htm

[Zydeco]

I agree with PA's original post. Peta is so hypocritical. I added HBO only to watch "LUCK". 3 times I watched an episode on Monday and not Sunday, because it was available on demand. If it would have been on only on Sundays I would have been there to watch it. So 3 of my viewings were not on Sunday night. I also watched it again during the week with the subtitles on. Wish it was still around. I will be cancelling my HBO subscription.

As for me , I am still a member of PETA.......People Eating Tasty Animals!

[tzipi]

The cancellation of Luck Plus, you made it easier for PETA to get its way, if indeed ratings were the major reason why HBO canned this show...but I refuse to believe that.

Thanks a lot to all you "fans" of racing out there who decided not to support this show as the season progressed.

Can't wait until you whine in some future thread about how racing never gets any "much needed" exposure.

And one last word about PETA. It has recently been reported that PETA KILLS 95 PERCENT OF THE ANIMALS IN ITS CARE.

Pace I know we disagree on this Luck thing and ratings thing. I still say ratings is a ruler for them but not the same as national tv. Anyway...

If you look at my last posts PETA has done NOTHING to shut down shows or TC races,televised animal show, etc even after months or years of protesting!

They couldn't even bring down Mike Tysons pigeon racing on Animal Planet and even when it got press in NY papers! Nobody cares about PETA or their ridiculousness. Surely not big powerful HBO either after a day of complaining. You're absoulutely right PETA kills numerous healty animals and does worse stuff that you can easily look up on the internet with backed facts. I do agree that a racing show for fans is great to have but I will say. Just because you like a ceratin thing doesn't mean everyone has to watch or like it. There was someone here a while ago who said they liked poker but hated the poker drama espn had on that was short lived. Everyones tastes are different.

Again I refuse to believe this group below who everyone knows now is a fraud brought down HBO after a split second rant when they couldnt bring down WAY easier targets for months or years.

http://bullmarketfrogs.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/wenn-peta__oPt.jpg

[big frank]

I don't know how you could be an avid horseplayer and NOT like this show ?? would have loved to see what happens to the players in the show.... it was a well done and solid show !!!!

[lansdale]

"The cancellation of Luck was plain and utter BULLSHIT! They caved to left-wing PETA pressure, bottom line. Seeing the programming that has recently made its way to HBO, I'm not surprised by this one bit.

The people who say HBO really cancelled Luck because of poor ratings are off base. If HBO was so concerned with ratings, they wouldn't have automatically renewed Luck for season #2 after only one episode had aired of season #1. They would have waited to see how the ratings trended over subsequent episodes...that's IF they were worried about ratings.

This was one of the best racing productions ever made...movie or not...the actual racing scenes were for the most part done AMAZINGLY well. Some of the best "fictional" racing action I have EVER seen caught on film."

Hi PA,

Thanks for these positive comments on the 'Luck' series, which I shared, and which I was also very sad to see come to an untimely end. I have to admit to a strong bias in favor of the show: one of my brothers hired Richie Coster (one of the handicappers) early in his career, another actor brother worked with Mercedes Ruehl, and other friends have worked for Milch, as writers, directors, and producers. Aside from that I admire Milch tremendously, and believe him to be, maybe aside from David Chase, the best writer who has ever worked in television. I also have worked for HBO and would like to dispel what seem to be some delusions as to why the show was cancelled.

First, as far as those who didn't care for the quality of the show or find it entertaining, you're entitled to your opinion. I know that Milch would like to make any show that he writes entertaining, but more important to him is that it be good. He's famous for this. For him, quality means truth. Truth is usually the element conspicuously lacking in entertainment. If you would like some examples in a nutshell - the movie 'Rocky' was 'entertaining' - 'Raging Bull' was good. In fact, although it bombed at the boxoffice, pulling in a total of only ca. $1 million on a $20 million budget, it was voted the best American film of the previous thirty years by a national group of critics in 2000.

What are the exploitable elements that normally constitute a film/TV entertainiment product? Some combination of violence (or action), comedy, sex (or romance), suspense, and sentimentality. I think everyone knows this. In 'Luck', Milch abandons all five of these elements almost completely, although there are bits of each, and concentrates on the element that rarely appears in entertainment, but always is the mark of art: truth. In drama, truth is revelation of character. And, as we know, (and Jake LaMotta knew), the truth isn't always fun - or entertaining.

Like his key influences, Faulkner and Dostoevsky, Milch has a vision that is dark, complex, and ambiguous. Somewhat like 'Raging Bull'. The mass audience, by and large, does not like dark, complex, and ambiguous.

Now, HBO knows all this about Milch going in. They're agreeing to do a show about horseracing not because they want one, but because it's a subject close to his heart, and they want to be associated with him. Why? Because, like very few people in the entertainment business (Scorsese, Woody Allen, at one time Kubrick, Welles e.g), he's not only admired, but regarded with something like reverence. That means not only that everyone will cut their price to work for these people, but that producers and investors are often willing to lose money to be associated with them. Also the kind of people that are motivated to work at HBO are not the kind of people who want to work in straight commercial film and TV. Because, like Milch, they also care about quality, which is why they, and not the networks produce 'The Sopranos', 'The Wire'.

Those that believe that ratings (or money), was the primary reason for the cancellation of the show are mistaken. castaways01 was right. First of all, remember that HBO knows it's taking a chance and is willing to lose some money on a project it believes has quality. Second, since the network operates on a subscription basis, it works not off of ratings, like the networks, but from the cumulative viewer totals. In the case of 'Luck', this total was about 4.5 million viewers. As is obvious, this doesn't compare with shows like 'Boardwalk Empire', which is also a very good, but also has a far higher budget. So you really don't know what the profits are on that. Yet, as PA observes, despite the viewer totals, HBO had still picked it up for the second season, despite this. If you're looking for a comparison, it also picked up the well-reviewed 'Enlightened' for a second season, despite even lower ratings than 'Luck'. (Let me put in a plug for Mike White here). So again, they're not entirely about the money.

To look at it from another angle, there's probably very little demographic overlap between the average HBO subscriber, and the average horseracing fan, who, based on what I've read and seen, is a aging (60+) white man, both culturally and politically conservative. I don't see this guy tuning in to 'Def Comedy Jam' or Bill Maher. From what I read here, this is the profile of the typical guy on PA who subscribed to HBO to watch this show and will now drop it, since it's been cancelled. OTOH, HBO is unlikely to lose any viewers from its target demo because 'Luck' is gone. Like most of those I know who watched (who had no interest in racing), they were there for Milch, Mann, Hoffman, and Nolte. So, no skin off HBO's nose.

Why did they cancel? I still don't know. One thing that has been in the press that no one has mentioned, is that Frank Stronach hated what he regarded as the negative portrayal of racing, and was thinking of pulling the plug on the use of Santa Anita. He had set up a meeting with Mann and Milch, that was to take place only a few days after the last horse died while shooting. My own guess is that Milch, as someone who loves horses, was not only upset up these horse deaths, but also dreaded the possibility of another death, and the ongoing negative publicity from PETA that would ensue. Add to that the possibility that he knew that Stronach might be pulling the plug, and I think you have at least plausible line of reasoning. In any event, I'm extremely disappointed by the outcome, and believe it likely that these were the best hours of TV we'll have on this sport.

Cheers,

lansdale

[tzipi]

While I do not agree with a few things, I have to say Lansdale.... GREAT POST. :ThmbUp:

[glengarry]

Loved the show, and sorry it's gone. As for why, no one will ever convince me that PETA brought HBO to its knees. If the show was enjoying Soprano like success, than HBO would have ignored PETA like so many others have. I don't know if any Italian-American anti defamation leagues contacted HBO, but wouldn't be surprised if they did and were ignored.

I never heard a thing in the media about the two initial horse deaths. The first news of this was the show's sudden cancellation. Very strange. As for the impact of ratings, those in the know aren't saying. I would assume HBO also makes money on DVD releases after each year of a series, and syndication as well. The potential for LUCK in those areas certainly seemed limited

There could have been multiple responses to PETA's concerns by HBO, including a moratorium on production until certain issues were addressed, or a change in storyline to use less race recreations. A show with great potential is gone, and every minor league track with sore horses will go on racing $5,000 state bred claimers, non winners of a race since Seabiscuit won the Big Cap. And horses will break down, and PETA will hem and haw, and no one will care. Wish another network could pick up the show, but don't see it happening.

[A. Pineda]

I agree that this was a good post, but I think that we may have been watching different shows.


What are the exploitable elements that normally constitute a film/TV entertainiment product? Some combination of violence (or action), comedy, sex (or romance), suspense, and sentimentality. I think everyone knows this. In 'Luck', Milch abandons all five of these elements almost completely, although there are bits of each, and concentrates on the element that rarely appears in entertainment, but always is the mark of art: truth.


Bits of each? Two murders, the gamblers having sex, the jockeys having sex, the vet and trainer having sex, and the attempted murder while having sex. The suspense re the health of the fetus, the suspense re the hit put out on "Ace," the suspense re the safety of the grandkid, the suspense re the outcome of the poker games, the suspense re the health of the injured horse, the suspense re the ownership of Nolte's horse. You missed the sentimentality about Nolte's feelings for his horse, the trainer's feelings for his baby, Ace's feelings for his grandkid? The follies of two of the Forays?

Those that believe that ratings (or money ), was the primary reason for the cancellation of the show are mistaken.
Why did they cancel? I still don't know.

Maybe a combination of factors.

[tzipi]

Those that believe that ratings (or money), was the primary reason for the cancellation of the show are mistaken. castaways01 was right. HBO works off subscriptions.

That's what I and others have said...subscriptions. I think people are getting confused that people are saying HBO is NBC,CBS,etc. We all know they are not and don't have to worry about commercial time,etc. They're different in terms of ratings. But to say HBO could care less about them is wrong I think. They of course look at them to gauge viewership on shows and popularity.


I think it was great to have a racing show and it would've been good to see go on but I also think from what insiders said "out of control" production costs was the biggest problem and why they stopped. I will not say no impact PETA had any affect.

But according to some HBO doesn't care, look at or speak about ratings because they don't go by them at all. Well for years(Sopranos,Wire,etc) they have talked about them, even recently.

HBO LAUDS "GAME CHANGE" RATINGS.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/hbo-lauds-game-change-ratings-but-palin-movie-couldnt-top-pawn-stars-rerun/2012/03/13/gIQAFyoUAS_story.html

http://www.vulture.com/2012/03/game-change-is-hbos-biggest-movie-in-eight-years.html

[CincyHorseplayer]

We are a world unto ourselves.Period.The world outside doesn't get our passion.I have a cousin that prints T-Shirts.I'm getting a batch printed out that says "It's A Track Thing.You Wouldn't Understand".Talking to my raceform guy we both have been alienated at times by people we know for our love of racing and responded the same way= "F*** them".They really don't get it.I haven't been able to watch the last 2 shows knowing it's a dead duck.You know,that's everybody else's bad.We are a world unto ourselves.

[PaceAdvantage]

From this, do I conclude that you believe that if the ratings were "X"% higher, then PETA's attack would not have caused HBO to cancel the show?I don't believe I stated the ratings didn't make the decision easier. They most certainly did. But I do not think ratings were the MAJOR reason why this show as cancelled.

I think PETA and the mindset of those running HBO were the major reason.

If Luck was drawing 3 million an episode, then the decision obviously becomes that much harder for the HBO suits.

Bottom line: absent public pressure from PETA, this show would have completed its second season.

[PaceAdvantage]

I thought that Nick Nolte had won an Oscar for "Blue Chips".You are one funny dude... :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

Not going to get into it too much. Pointless. You never understand and claim against facts. Not the second episode ratings. These are the last epsiode ratings. Viewership was dropping. Viewership=ratings=buzz=new subcriptions for cable companies like HBO. Go argue and tell all cable companys to stop monitring and mentioning ratings then. Geez

"Beyond the tragic animal deaths, Luck also has been cursed with low ratings: Just 474,000 viewers tuned in Sunday, far lower than the average for the series."

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/entertainment/post/2012/03/hbos-luck-canceled/1

I enjoyed show a bit and love racing but can't argue with HBO's facts and if they dont want to put big money into it anymore and go with another show. That's all.I'm sure Sunday's low ratings also had something to do with the fact that it had become common knowledge before airing that the series had been cancelled. I would think this would lead some people to not bother watching , knowing the show was effectively over.

[PaceAdvantage]

Luck is on Sunday nights when everyones home, not Fridays night. Big DVR ratings for sunday nights?

I understand people have DVR's etc but when other shows pull in huge numbers on their initial night runs HBO notices that I guess. Shows like John From Cinn and others had 3,000,000 viewers at the end and that does not include DVR. That's initial run time. So even though Luck had DVR, on demand etc, it's still low rated. Again, I am NOT HBO and just go by the ratings and what they are saying. That's all. ;)

Hey I'd love to have a racing show on again or whatever but this one didn't seem to work between viewership and horses deaths.3,000,000 is pretty big for HBO...makes you wonder why John from Cincinnati was cancelled...viewership had actually started to INCREASE through the final couple of episodes too...

I actually liked that show...

[PaceAdvantage]

Interesting that you post a list that is irrelevant to the discussion. If you read my post again, you'll find why the list is relevant. I was talking about how you're not likely to get such an "A-list" team to star in, produce and direct a show/film related to racing like you had with this project.

[PaceAdvantage]

No need to be a prick.Calling someone dumb might also be viewed as being a prick...

No need to be a hypocrite.

[Donnie]

Ratings are calculated by looking at viewership "across the spectrum", I would think. What other programming has been going on Sunday nights that would draw viewership? There is this little Grade 1 event early on called the Super Bowl. I would think that would be a tough week for all other programming. Any other big events in the past 9 Sundays? Were the Emmys on Sunday or Monday? Anything in Basketball?

It was a great show. Very glad I tivo-ed them all.

[Robert Fischer]

Season finale was probably my favorite episode.

[David-LV]

HBO did not want to get involved with a group like PETA, they did not want rallies and picket lines and all the negative crap that goes with it no matter who is right or wrong.

It is unfortunate that it comes down to bullying by these types of groups in our great Country, which is changing right before our eyes.

Our lost was a very entertaining show which was getting better and better as the weeks went on.

________
David-LV

[depalma113]

Show's been cancelled, yet HBO still uses it in their On Demand promos.

I would think if they were really worried about peta, they would have yanked everything and this promo wouldn't continue to be used.

[JustRalph]

http://www.vulture.com/2012/03/luck-recap-season-1-episode-9.html

recap and post mortem in a way

[tzipi]

3,000,000 is pretty big for HBO...makes you wonder why John from Cincinnati was cancelled...viewership had actually started to INCREASE through the final couple of episodes too...

I actually liked that show...

Yeah I liked that show too. Towards the end of the show, ratings were up to about about 3 million.

[tzipi]

HBO did not want to get involved with a group like PETA, they did not want rallies and picket lines and all the negative crap that goes with it no matter who is right or wrong.

It is unfortunate that it comes down to bullying by these types of groups in our great Country, which is changing right before our eyes.

Our lost was a very entertaining show which was getting better and better as the weeks went on.

________
David-LV

I don't think HBO cares one bit about PETA. Horse racing didn't care about them during the Preakness with Eight Belles and PETA accomplished nothing.
Discovery channel and Animal planet didn't care about PETAS "protesting" and nothing came of it of course as their shows still aired.
Westminister Dogs show and American Kennel Club still do shows and are on tv every year as they and no one else cared about them ranting. PETA does nothing with this kind of stuff and no one notices. HBO knows that.
As some said earlier if this was PETA against HBO's Sopranos, you think HBO would've folded?

No one cares about PETA and surely not HBO. They are a joke. No one takes these people and their "protests" seriously.
http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lbosw94RRo1qedbkxo1_400.jpg

[David-LV]

I don't think HBO cares one bit about PETA. Horse racing didn't care about them during the Preakness with Eight Belles and PETA accomplished nothing.
Discovery channel and Animal planet didn't care about PETAS "protesting" and nothing came of it of course as their shows still aired.
Westminister Dogs show and American Kennel Club still do shows and are on tv every year as they and no one else cared about them ranting. PETA does nothing with this kind of stuff and no one notices. HBO knows that.
As some said earlier if this was PETA against HBO's Sopranos, you think HBO would've folded?

No one cares about PETA and surely not HBO. They are a joke. No one takes these people and their "protests" seriously.


I will tell you that I happen to know an executive from HBO and my comments are not mine, but lets just say that they came directly from the horses mouth.

In fact his exact words to me were, "HBO does not need this".

________
David-LV

[tzipi]

I will tell you that I happen to know an executive from HBO and my comments are not mine, but lets just say that they came directly from the horses mouth.

In fact his exact words to me were, "HBO does not need this".

________
David-LV

Doesn't need what? They have never accomplished anything. They have never hurt anything. They have not shut down any of these shows,races,etc they've tried to. No one pays attention to them.

OK, assuming HBO statement is true, it's amazing small time Animal Planet didn't even flinch about PETA's big Tyson pigeon show and aired it to no boycott from people. They didn't fold to them about Jockeys and show ran on with no problems. Same with Discovery Channels fishing shows, or USA's dog shows. Heck horse racing said whatever you're not stopping our triple Crown, protest all you want PETA, WE DON'T CARE, and of course no one listened to PETA and viewership was fine. No one in America even cares about PETA's BS rants and these shows still get their viewership and make money. No one even cared when they "protested" outside the Preakness,Animal Planet,etc.

So I still find it shocking HBO knows that this group is a joke and no one in their industry has paid attention to them or has been hurt by them but big HBO folded in a second. NO way would they have folded in it was the Sopranos. I have to go with what insiders say. PETA was a good excuse to stop this out of control production cost show that didn't have the big viewership it was looking for.

Again, obviously not knocking show, not knocking racing, or Milch or whatever. Just knocking this BS group PETA, who people are giving way too much credit for. They are a joke no one cares about because they accomplished nothing in this animal/tv entertainment buisness and everyone knows that.

Don't buy it at all but we'll have to agree to disagree David ;)

[glengarry]

I will tell you that I happen to know an executive from HBO and my comments are not mine, but lets just say that they came directly from the horses mouth.

In fact his exact words to me were, "HBO does not need this".

________
David-LV

Maybe they didn't "need this", meaning the PETA headache, because the show was not adding to their bottom line. If a 50% juice trainer was getting his every move scrutinized, as some eventually do, they put up with "this" (barn raids, etc.) because they are making too much money not to. It goes with the territory. If you are waking up 4 in the morning and winning at 4%, then you do "not need this". If the show was a blockbuster that was bringing in new subscribers daily, with more money expected from all the residual stuff down the line, then HBO would have put up with whatever "this" is, and done so smiling.

What I find most strange is that there was no effort by HBO to save the show, no campaign to refute PETA's claims, nothing. What's the matter, HBO doesn't have media contacts or the assets to fight back? They could have donated millions to some PETA cause and bought their silence. You end up with the biggest subscription network on the planet waving the white flag and saying "I quit". Did Vince McMahon fold up the tent when everything hit the fan about his talent and their issues? No, he was making money, and wasn't about to let go because of some bad press. Like anything else in the business world, the answer is money. Now what was the question?

[thaskalos]

Doesn't need what? They have never accomplished anything. They have never hurt anything. They have not shut down any of these shows,races,etc they've tried to. No one pays attention to them.

OK, assuming HBO statement is true, it's amazing small time Animal Planet didn't even flinch about PETA's big Tyson pigeon show and aired it to no boycott from people. They didn't fold to them about Jockeys and show ran on with no problems. Same with Discovery Channels fishing shows, or USA's dog shows. Heck horse racing said whatever you're not stopping our triple Crown, protest all you want PETA, WE DON'T CARE, and of course no one listened to PETA and viewership was fine. No one in America even cares about PETA's BS rants and these shows still get their viewership and make money. No one even cared when they "protested" outside the Preakness,Animal Planet,etc.

So I still find it shocking HBO knows that this group is a joke and no one in their industry has paid attention to them or has been hurt by them but big HBO folded in a second. NO way would they have folded in it was the Sopranos. I have to go with what insiders say. PETA was a good excuse to stop this out of control production cost show that didn't have the big viewership it was looking for.

Again, obviously not knocking show, not knocking racing, or Milch or whatever. Just knocking this BS group PETA, who people are giving way too much credit for. They are a joke no one cares about because they accomplished nothing in this animal/tv entertainment buisness and everyone knows that.

Don't buy it at all but we'll have to agree to disagree David ;)

You cannot compare pigeons to horses, IMO...and this time things might be a lot different, because PETA has a powerful new ally in their attack against horse racing. The New York Times.

The New York Times has charged that..."breakdowns can be caused by a variety of factors...but drugs, often used to mask existing injuries, are the prime suspect".

Of course, the horse racing industry has not issued any sort of response to this...probably because this statement cannot be refuted.

The horsemen may claim that these horses need drugs like Butazolidin on race day in order to withstand the stress of modern racing...but all the general public sees are thousands of beautiful animals, sent to the starting gate with pre-existing injuries all numbed-up, thus endangering both themselves...and the humans on their back.

Not exactly the sort of image our sport would like to portray to the general public...

[Steve R]

[snip]...No one cares about PETA and surely not HBO. They are a joke. No one takes these people and their "protests" seriously.[snip]
Somebody cares. They have 3 million members. The NRA has 4.3 million. Just because you don't care, don't assume nobody else does.

[badcompany]

What I find most strange is that there was no effort by HBO to save the show, no campaign to refute PETA's claims, nothing. What's the matter, HBO doesn't have media contacts or the assets to fight back?


PETA, which, last year, had revenues of 35 million and an operating LOSS of 5 million, is much too formidable an opponent for Time Warner Cable which only had revenues of 29 BILLION and an operating income of only 5.9 billion.:lol:

[badcompany]

Not exactly the sort of image our sport would like to portray to the general public...

With the exception of the first Saturday in May, the overwhelming majority of the general public doesn't know our sport exists.

[castaway01]

Calling someone dumb might also be viewed as being a prick...

No need to be a hypocrite.

that's true, I got a bit fired up there. If I posted "I know people in the business" I'd have come off as a bigger prick (ha), but was just trying to explain how cable TV works. It's frustrating when certain people won't believe me, but I shouldn't resort to name calling.

[castaway01]

I will tell you that I happen to know an executive from HBO and my comments are not mine, but lets just say that they came directly from the horses mouth.

In fact his exact words to me were, "HBO does not need this".

________
David-LV

David, for what it is worth, I heard literally the exact same thing that you did.

[appistappis]

I hope PETA gets claimed by Uriah st lewis.

[tzipi]

You cannot compare pigeons to horses, IMO...and this time things might be a lot different, because PETA has a powerful new ally in their attack against horse racing. The New York Times.

The New York Times has charged that..."breakdowns can be caused by a variety of factors...but drugs, often used to mask existing injuries, are the prime suspect".

Of course, the horse racing industry has not issued any sort of response to this...probably because this statement cannot be refuted.

The horsemen may claim that these horses need drugs like Butazolidin on race day in order to withstand the stress of modern racing...but all the general public sees are thousands of beautiful animals, sent to the starting gate with pre-existing injuries all numbed-up, thus endangering both themselves...and the humans on their back.

Not exactly the sort of image our sport would like to portray to the general public...


Ok so I won't compare pigeons to horses. How about I compare horses to horses. PETA wanted horse racing and TC shut down after the Derby. They got nowhere of course.

Wouldn't say NY or LA Times are an ally. They just report PETA stuff and still the majority doesn't side with them. The papers are just doing their job. Not siding. ;)

LA TIMES reported Animal planets pigeon racing.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/showtracker/2011/03/peta-blasts-new-show-featuring-mike-tyson-and-his-pigeons.html

NY TIMES reported Westminister dog show.
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/13/peta-vs-the-dog-show/

NY TIMES covered PETA and Derby/Preakness
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/16/sports/othersports/16belles.html

Just a few. Too many to list. Pretty big papers and still no fold.

It didn't affect them in the slightest. Still going strong. These people and channels continued their shows, money making and lives and PETA made no impact with their "claims" at all. PETA is a hypocritical sham and everyone knows it today.

HBO folded for another reason from what entertainment insiders have said and I will not give this no impact group any credit. NO ONE else has over the years.

[tzipi]

that's true, I got a bit fired up there. If I posted "I know people in the business" I'd have come off as a bigger prick (ha), but was just trying to explain how cable TV works.

No you're right Castway, not argueing about ratings being different from NBC,etc. I totally agree but you said it has no affect on HBO and they don't care or go by them. But they do and do use them as a gauge.

Check out post #46. HBO said it, not me.

[glengarry]

David, for what it is worth, I heard literally the exact same thing that you did.

I take the HBO exec's comment that several of you heard to mean something a little different. For me, "doesn't need this" could really be "isn't worth it". If you don't have a major league hit on your hands, then it probably was not worth it. I don't believe for a second that Luck's demise was about PETA and nothing else. Makes no sense. The show, probably for a variety of reasons, was not worth fighting for.

[Tom]

Do what I did - call your cable provider, cancel HBO and tell them why.
I feel much better - I canceled everything except Cinemax. Send a few dozen e mails as well.

HBO - I do no need this.

[glengarry]

Do what I did - call your cable provider, cancel HBO and tell them why.
I feel much better - I canceled everything except Cinemax. Send a few dozen e mails as well.

HBO - I do no need this.

I am sure they thought this out, and realized, from the ratings, they wouldn't face a serious loss of subscriptions. In the end, these are always business, meaning money, decisions. Why would this one be any different? Oh, that's right, PETA forced their hand. Please.

[Tom]

So your solution is congratulate them, roll over, and play dead?

[tzipi]

So your solution is congratulate them, roll over, and play dead?

Just to take a stab in response. No I dont think anyone here will congratulate them. It's just buisness. We all do it everyday of our lives. BUT I hope things will get better in our horse industry. Forget a HBO show. We NEED to concentrate on our horses and sport, not some show that didn't make it for certain reasons. JMO.

[glengarry]

So your solution is congratulate them, roll over, and play dead?

If it's Showtime, I drop it. HBO has some good programming, so I will keep it. Every racing fan I know loved the show. I'm disappointed, but nothing can be done.

[PaceAdvantage]

So I still find it shocking HBO knows that this group is a joke and no one in their industry has paid attention to them or has been hurt by them but big HBO folded in a second.You are ignoring the fact that HBO does not consider them a joke. HBO leans solidly to the left. When you finally understand that, you understand why a far-left organization such as PETA carries weight with HBO brass.

[bigmack]

Mildly entertaining take from a chum of DaMilch.

Milch is an improviser by nature. On his other series, he would come up with new dialogue right up until the cameras were ready to roll (and sometimes after). When HBO rejected his pitch to do a show about a couple of cops in ancient Rome because they already had a Rome show in development, he reconfigured it into "Deadwood." He's fond of repeating the old saying that, "If you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans."

It feels like Milch had been planning his whole life to do this show. And he got to do it for a season.

Then God laughed.

http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/whats-alan-watching/posts/some-thoughts-on-the-luck-cancellation

[KingChas]

What I find hard to believe about this whole situation is with all the technology available to the TV industry,couldn't HBO possibly have simulated the actual racing scenes themselves and only used the horses in perhaps the stable,winner circle scenes.....etc.?

Some of todays simulations in the film industry are very realistic.

[PaceAdvantage]

What I find hard to believe about this whole situation is with all the technology available to the TV industry,couldn't HBO possibly have simulated the actual racing scenes themselves and only used the horses in perhaps the stable,winner circle scenes.....etc.?

Some of todays simulations in the film industry are very realistic. It would be impossible, even with today's technology...plus it would cost a fortune...plus it would suck big time and completely negate the vision that created the show in the first place.

[KingChas]

It would be impossible, even with today's technology...

I was thinking along the lines they put the series jocks on a fake horse ala what real jocks use to excercise and super impose that onto real race footage.
There certainly isn't any shortage of horseracing replays at all distances and views.

I would think that would be possible and cheaper.........?
Also every race needn't be 5 minutes long to get the point across.

[GameTheory]

I was thinking along the lines they put the series jocks on a fake horse ala what real jocks use to excercise and super impose that onto real race footage.
There certainly isn't any shortage of horseracing replays at all distances and views.

I would think that would be possible and cheaper.........?
Also every race needn't be 5 minutes long to get the point across.
It wouldn't matter -- they would still be AROUND horses, and any of those horses that died for whatever reason would be blamed on the production. I mean one of the dead horses was just walking to the stable -- it wasn't being endangered in any way at all -- and yet "Luck" killed that horse.

[tzipi]

Hate PETA and don't like giving them credit in anything but I will attack whoever made the horse choices. From the NECROPSY reports.

http://kosherveg.com/wp-content/plugins/rss-poster/cache/b15a0_1323.4084275497_5F00_58156d6da7_5F00_z.JPG

OUTLAW YODELER:

1) 5 yr old horse who hadn't run in months.

2) He was so sore that he was given a potent cocktail of muscle relaxant and anti-inflammatory and painkilling drugs, including BUTOPHANOL, a painkiller so strong that it's often used as an analgesic for horses undergoing some kinds of surgery.

3) Was raced twice in one day when he broke down.

4) Had a "voilent" fracture.




MARC'S SHADOW:

1) 8 yrs old

2) He was athritic. He had degenerative arthrosis to both the right carpus and the left carpus and an injury in which his leg exploded into more than 19 pieces.

3) Hadn't raced in FOUR YEARS.

4) Was raced twice in one day when he broke down.

5) Had a "violent" fracture.


Third horse died while having an accident walking back to groom. Can't say there's blame there.


As they say and we all know, even super fit and healthy thoroughbreds don't race or even excercise twice in one day.
Someone involved with the show did this and pick these horses. I'd like to know who.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/vickeryeckhoff/2012/03/16/luck-ran-old-unfit-drugged-horses-says-necropsy-report/

[David-LV]

You are ignoring the fact that HBO does not consider them a joke. HBO leans solidly to the left. When you finally understand that, you understand why a far-left organization such as PETA carries weight with HBO brass.

BINGO MIKE, you hit the nail right on the head.

_______
David-LV

[Tom]

If it's Showtime, I drop it. HBO has some good programming, so I will keep it. Every racing fan I know loved the show. I'm disappointed, but nothing can be done.

But dropping Showtime would help it it were them???
Personally, there is nothing on HBO I really like - I never like any of their original programming - I prefer Cinemax, for actual movies.

HBO is no loss for me.

[Robert Fischer]

MARC'S SHADOW:

1) 8 yrs old

2) He was athritic. He had degenerative arthrosis to both the right carpus and the left carpus and an injury in which his leg exploded into more than 19 pieces.

3) Hadn't raced in FOUR YEARS.

4) Was raced twice in one day when he broke down.

5) Had a "violent" fracture.


How was he even alive, much less able to run twice having had a previous injury where "his leg exploded into more than 19 pieces". That doesn't even make sense.

[tzipi]

How was he even alive, much less able to run twice having had a previous injury where "his leg exploded into more than 19 pieces". That doesn't even make sense.

Not sure. That was according to the equine vet who looked at the necropsy report. Well maybe it could mean it was the injury from the show and it was in the report.

I just want to know who or what vet choose or cleared these horses to run. :mad:

[tzipi]

Hopefully there are reports to combat these reports. Because that just seems too cruel if these horses were in this bad of shape. Just wanted to post them to see if anyone diagress or can give better news than these horrible reports. Like I hope to God the sedatives were given after and not during shooting to mask pain while running.

[Dahoss9698]

How much were these horses even "running?" It's not like they were running actual races.

[PaceAdvantage]

I was thinking along the lines they put the series jocks on a fake horse ala what real jocks use to excercise and super impose that onto real race footage.
There certainly isn't any shortage of horseracing replays at all distances and views.

I would think that would be possible and cheaper.........?
Also every race needn't be 5 minutes long to get the point across.They DO do this in certain scenes...and THANKFULLY, they don't do it very often, because you can tell every single time...

[PaceAdvantage]

Hate PETA and don't like giving them credit in anything but I will attack whoever made the horse choices. From the NECROPSY reports.

http://kosherveg.com/wp-content/plugins/rss-poster/cache/b15a0_1323.4084275497_5F00_58156d6da7_5F00_z.JPG

OUTLAW YODELER:

1) 5 yr old horse who hadn't run in months.

2) He was so sore that he was given a potent cocktail of muscle relaxant and anti-inflammatory and painkilling drugs, including BUTOPHANOL, a painkiller so strong that it's often used as an analgesic for horses undergoing some kinds of surgery.Wasn't this the horse that PETA mistakenly thought was on these drugs BEFORE he was injured? Turns out those drugs were administered AFTER he suffered his fatal injury...so OF COURSE they show up in the necropsy.

Must...think...logically...

You and PETA both...

[PaceAdvantage]

But dropping Showtime would help it it were them???
Personally, there is nothing on HBO I really like - I never like any of their original programming - I prefer Cinemax, for actual movies.

HBO is no loss for me.Isn't Cinemax owned by HBO?

[Tom]

I think they are related somehow, but CM has far better programming.

[badcompany]

Cinemax operates under the umbrella of HBO Inc. which is a subsidiary of Time Warner (Ticker: TWX)

[tzipi]

Wasn't this the horse that PETA mistakenly thought was on these drugs BEFORE he was injured? Turns out those drugs were administered AFTER he suffered his fatal injury...so OF COURSE they show up in the necropsy.

Must...think...logically...

You and PETA both...

You and PETA??

Do you read posts Pace or are you just out to go after me? I'm having a conversation and trying to ask others for info... Mr know it all. It's a forum!
I SAID hopefully these reports are not true and someone can combat them.
I SAID hopefully they were given after the injury in POST#90
I didn't make up claims. Linked from Forbes.

Try READING all the posts and stop being so angry and nasty towards me. Grow up.

[PaceAdvantage]

You and PETA??

Do you read posts Pace or are you just out to go after me? I'm having a conversation, Mr know it all.
I SAID hopefully these reports are not true and someone can combat them.
I SAID hopefully they were given after the injury in POST#90

Try READING all the posts and stop being so angry and nasty towards me. Grow up.Where do you get angry and nasty from my reply?

Just trying to clear up obvious misconceptions that both PETA and you seem to be making...I know why PETA is making them...it furthers their cause.

You, I'm not quite sure why...

[tzipi]

Where do you get angry and nasty from my reply?

Just trying to clear up obvious misconceptions that both PETA and you seem to be making...I know why PETA is making them...it furthers their cause.

You, I'm not quite sure why...

"You and PETA" Why me? I said can this be true. I SAID I hope this was given after injury. I'm looking at reports. I didn't do them.

"Must...think...logically" Yes I know you know it all and were there. Geez. Whatever Ill stay off your thread PA. Was just asking around and seeing what others heard and shocked by "many" reports. I was saying why 8 yrs olds? Why not fit 3yr olds? Geez sorry. Whatever. Enjoy

[PaceAdvantage]

"You and PETA" Why me? I said can this be true. I SAID I hope this was given after injury. I'm looking at reports. I didn't do them.

"Must...think...logically" Yes I know you know it all and were there. Geez. Whatever Ill stay off your thread PA. Was just asking around and seeing what others heard and shocked by "many" reports. Whatever. EnjoyIt's obvious you are the one that has a problem with me...not the other way around.

This was the first line from your post in question:Hate PETA and don't like giving them credit in anything but I will attack whoever made the horse choices. From the NECROPSY reports.Does this line not completely endorse what followed? It sure reads like that to me. "I will attack whoever made the HORSE CHOICES."

As in, these are the horses, this is the condition they were in...I buy into this...just like PETA did...

[tzipi]

It's obvious you are the one that has a problem with me...not the other way around.

This was the first line from your post in question:Does this line not completely endorse what followed? It sure reads like that to me. "I will attack whoever made the HORSE CHOICES."

As in, these are the horses, this is the condition they were in...I buy into this...just like PETA did...


Seriously, you jumped on me on another thread when someone attacked me saying I was wrong about 7th episode ratings. I was right. End ratings were 470,000-500,000. It wasn't second episodes ratings as they claimed.
You've jumped on me numerous times. I don't even know you. I linked from Forbes. There's a million links out there to reports. Was it off PETAS site? No I just listed what has been written saying this is insane and hope it's not true. READ the posts.

Yes mr know it all. I said 8 yr old race worn horses hould not be running these strenuous scenes. That's my opinion. You know for SURE they were'nt arthritic and NO fit 3yr olds could've been used? So YES I do question whoever chose this 8yr old race worn horse over a fit 3yr old. It's my opinion. Get over it.

[PaceAdvantage]

Seriously, you jumped on me on another thread when someone attacked me saying I was wrong about 7th episode ratings. I was right. End ratings were 470,000-500,000. It wasn't second episodes ratings as they claimed.
You've jumped on me numerous times. I don't even know you. I linked from Forbes. There's a million links out there to reports. Was it off PETAS site? No I just listed what has been written saying this is insane and hope it's not true. READ the posts.

Yes mr know it all. I said 8 yr old race worn horses hould not be running these strenuous scenes. That's my opinion. You know for SURE they were'nt arthritic and NO fit 3yr olds could've been used? So YES I do question whoever chose this 8yr old race worn horse over a fit 3yr old. It's my opinion. Get over it.Why are you bringing up the other horses? I specifically singled out the one horse (Outlaw Yodeler) whom you seem to believe was running while pumped up on all sorts of drug cocktails.

Stick to the issue.

And I don't know what you're talking about with the ratings thing where I supposedly attacked you...link please?

[tzipi]

Why are you bringing up the other horses? I specifically singled out the one horse (Outlaw Yodeler) whom you seem to believe was running while pumped up on all sorts of drug cocktails.

Stick to the issue.

And I don't know what you're talking about with the ratings thing where I supposedly attacked you...link please?

I have the problem with you? I never talk to you.

Do you READ Or just bother a select group here for no reason. I SAID I hope this is not true and these drugs were given after and not bfore injury in POST #90. Geez

Yeah "Luck Series is Cancelled" Post #77
"You weren't attacked"
You choose me out of everyone talking normally. I never said I was attacked. I told the person who was going saying people were insane for writing about something they didn't know about and stop attacking people about it. He was wrong 500,000 wasn't for first run episode as he said. It was for the 7th and it was 470,000. I was right with the link and quote.

Post #77
"Helpful Advice Tzipi" Stop betting horses if you're this thin skinned"

Who the heck are you? Stop betting horses because I'm debating someone like everyone else and calmly?? I never yelled or cursed or anything on that thread. My posts were basically no different than many others but you called out me? I was having the same conversations everyone else was having. It's a forum and I was fairly debating.

Find something else to do. I will stand by my post. 8 yrs old race worn horses are probably not a better choice over 3yr old new and fit horses. And I hope the reports are not true.

[tzipi]

BTW I have been nothing but nice to you PACE, giving you accolades for your site and running it. I also don't think I've ever attacked you or a post by you and always apologize(for some reason, I dont know why now) when you jump on me out of nowhere. Whatever enjoy your thread.
Sorry I caused such a big disturbance with the Necropsy report from Forbes link. So horrible I did that and said I hope it wasn't true.


BTW show me posts of me attacking you first and having problems with you? Like to see them. This is like the first time I've ever been really frustrated by you since I've been on here. I'll stand by that I did nothing wrong. Enjoy your thread.

[Marlin]

Any stats that age is a significant variable in horse breakdowns? 3yo versus 8yo? I'm not sure a race worn horse is more apt to breakdown. BTW I own one horse. Last year she was 8 and won three races. This year she is nine and I hope to win a few more.

[tzipi]

Any stats that age is a significant variable in horse breakdowns? 3yo versus 8yo? I'm not sure a race worn horse is more apt to breakdown. BTW I own one horse. Last year she was 8 and won three races. This year she is nine and I hope to win a few more.

Congrats and I hope she wins more than a few :)

[PaceAdvantage]

BTW I have been nothing but nice to you PACE, And I've been nothing but nice to you as well, ZIPI.

Nothing you've posted would qualify as an ATTACK in my book. Some people (such as yourself) have a very odd definition of ATTACK. (I bet you think this statement was another "attack," don't you? :lol: )

One of the examples you post of me "attacking" you is a thread where you claim you were "attacked" by a third party...and me telling you (in my opinion) that you were not, in fact, "attacked," in and of itself qualifies as an "attack" in your book. :lol:

How utterly confusing... :lol:

And telling you to stop betting horses if you're this thin skinned (also from that same example) isn't an attack...it's helpful advice.

[PaceAdvantage]

Sorry I caused such a big disturbance with the Necropsy report from Forbes link. So horrible I did that and said I hope it wasn't true.You didn't cause a big disturbance. You simply posted misleading information, just like PETA. When I point this out to you, you roll up into a ball and claim you were attacked. Whatever...

I stand by everything I wrote to you in response to a reply like this. I did not attack you. I engaged you in a discussion on what you wrote. Nothing more, nothing less. I did not pull in threads or replies from the past. I did not complain. I did not whine. All I did was address exactly what you posted in a direct and adult manner, hammering home the point that you were making the same mistake as PETA, the organization you claim to hate.

And by the way, nowhere in the following reply (the one that I initially replied to), did you ever state you hoped it wasn't true...here's your reply again...word for word...Hate PETA and don't like giving them credit in anything but I will attack whoever made the horse choices. From the NECROPSY reports.

OUTLAW YODELER:

1) 5 yr old horse who hadn't run in months.

2) He was so sore that he was given a potent cocktail of muscle relaxant and anti-inflammatory and painkilling drugs, including BUTOPHANOL, a painkiller so strong that it's often used as an analgesic for horses undergoing some kinds of surgery.

3) Was raced twice in one day when he broke down.

4) Had a "voilent" fracture.




MARC'S SHADOW:

1) 8 yrs old

2) He was athritic. He had degenerative arthrosis to both the right carpus and the left carpus and an injury in which his leg exploded into more than 19 pieces.

3) Hadn't raced in FOUR YEARS.

4) Was raced twice in one day when he broke down.

5) Had a "violent" fracture.


Third horse died while having an accident walking back to groom. Can't say there's blame there.


As they say and we all know, even super fit and healthy thoroughbreds don't race or even excercise twice in one day.
Someone involved with the show did this and pick these horses. I'd like to know who.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/vickery...ecropsy-report/

[Dahoss9698]

BTW I have been nothing but nice to you PACE, giving you accolades for your site and running it. I also don't think I've ever attacked you or a post by you and always apologize(for some reason, I dont know why now) when you jump on me out of nowhere. Whatever enjoy your thread.
Sorry I caused such a big disturbance with the Necropsy report from Forbes link. So horrible I did that and said I hope it wasn't true.


BTW show me posts of me attacking you first and having problems with you? Like to see them. This is like the first time I've ever been really frustrated by you since I've been on here. I'll stand by that I did nothing wrong. Enjoy your thread.

You've taken this entire Luck stuff personally. It's not a personal thing. Calm down.

You linked the Forbes article and seemed to follow what it said pretty closely. The reason certain drugs were in the horses system were they were administered after the accident. The Forbes article leaves out that very important piece of information. Not your fault, it's just more poor journalism when it comes to our sport.

As for their horse choices, maybe I'm naive, but on a (fairly) big Hollywood production like this, I'm sure the horses that were being used were vetted extensively beforehand. I don't think the producers were overworking the horses, they weren't running in actual races.

As we know, horses break down. It's an unfortunate part of the game, but it happens.

[tzipi]

You've taken this entire Luck stuff personally. It's not a personal thing. Calm down

No, I didn't. I was confronted once again by Pace for doing nothing. Calm down for what? I was having a calm normal debate with people on the thread. Clearly shows that. Enjoy.

[tzipi]

You didn't cause a big disturbance. You simply posted misleading information, just like PETA. When I point this out to you, you roll up into a ball and claim you were attacked. Whatever...

I stand by everything I wrote to you in response to a reply like this. I did not attack you. I engaged you in a discussion on what you wrote. Nothing more, nothing less. I did not pull in threads or replies from the past. I did not complain. I did not whine. All I did was address exactly what you posted in a direct and adult manner, hammering home the point that you were making the same mistake as PETA, the organization you claim to hate.

And by the way, nowhere in the following reply (the one that I initially replied to), did you ever state you hoped it wasn't true...here's your reply again...word for word...

You don't adress a lot of people here in a adult manner. "Hey Tzipi quit betting horses is my advice to you if you thin skinned." made no sense. From a thread I was calmly debating on with someone else and had facts to back up my posts. Meanwhile other people on threads use language and agressiveness towards people and you say nothing. It's old.

Also again, like everyother person on here and on this forum and on these threads we have multiple posts AS we talk and debate. "The post I initally replied to" You see all the posts. Cmon. Please you clearly read all before posting and it was right below it. It's a running conversation/forum. Why just read up to one point?

From Post #90(right below my original post)

"Hopefully there are reports to combat these reports. Because that just seems too cruel if these horses were in this bad of shape. Just wanted to post them to see if anyone disagrees or can give better news than these horrible reports. Like I hope to God the sedatives were given after and not during shooting to mask pain while running."



So now we or I are judged by one post in a multiple page thread EVEN if we are still debating and learning and posting after? Wow...ok. Keep going after me and my ONE post from a running debate on here. It's fine. Obviously is more important.

[tzipi]

And I've been nothing but nice to you as well, ZIPI.

Nothing you've posted would qualify as an ATTACK in my book. Some people (such as yourself) have a very odd definition of ATTACK. (I bet you think this statement was another "attack," don't you? :lol: )

One of the examples you post of me "attacking" you is a thread where you claim you were "attacked" by a third party...and me telling you (in my opinion) that you were not, in fact, "attacked," in and of itself qualifies as an "attack" in your book. :lol:

How utterly confusing... :lol:

And telling you to stop betting horses if you're this thin skinned (also from that same example) isn't an attack...it's helpful advice.


Real "adult" reply Pace with all the :lol: you put in.

Nothing but nice to me? Trust me, you couldn't show one post. I showed mine you asked for.

Yes we know, you gave me such helpful advice for having a calm convo like everyone else. That really made sense? No one here should ever bet horses again then.

No, I said in a debate with the person(not even you) stop attacking people as in stop going after people in a rude way for something they were backing up. We all know what attack means and it doesn't have to mean totally out of control or physical. It clearly showed that.



P.S. Finally done with this racket and could care less about anything I didn't say being posted as if its a one and done forum. Or if people come out saying Pace is right, quit it. Yeah ok we get that. Finally, still great forum, one of the best and best run. I still stand by that because a frustrating thread doesn't ruin it.

[Dahoss9698]

No, I didn't. I was confronted once again by Pace for doing nothing. Calm down for what? I was having a calm normal debate with people on the thread. Clearly shows that. Enjoy.

You weren't confronted. You posted something and he replied. Again, it's not personal.

You keep wanting to make it about something else. You posted the Forbes article. PA responded to it.

Do you think the Forbes article left out major parts of the story by not mentioning the drugs in the horses system were administered post injury? Isn't that pretty important to their article?

[tzipi]

You weren't confronted. You posted something and he replied. Again, it's not personal.

You keep wanting to make it about something else. You posted the Forbes article. PA responded to it.

Do you think the Forbes article left out major parts of the story by not mentioning the drugs in the horses system were administered post injury? Isn't that pretty important to their article?

The personal stuff has nothing to do with just this one thread. Ive said that. I am also not cursing at him, anyone or yelling. So enough with the comments to calm down,etc. You've haven't been perfect either. Why stir the pot more?

Try reading post #90, right after it and way before PA reply. It's an ongoing conversation and debate. That's what this forum is, or what I thought it was. If post #90 was way after replies, you'd have a case.

So if you learn something new in say post #100 of a thread and say so, ill just go after your first post in the thread where you didn't know? Ok makes sense?
Actually this has nothing to do with you. Was just talking with PA. He runs this forum and I was just discussing it with him. He can take whatever action he wants or sees fit. That's fine by me, it's his house. But this little frustration and convo was between him and I. That's all.

[tzipi]

Btw PACE you can write in reply whatever you want even if it's 110% right/against me,etc, I'll respect that and I wont reply because this is getting overplayed and its clogging up your thread and I know you don't want that or does anyone else trying to discuss. Post away. Enjoy

Geez, 62-1 kills my pick 3 at Aqueduct. Pace cursed me, I know it! Just kidding ;)

[Dahoss9698]

The personal stuff has nothing to do with just this one thread. Ive said that. I am also not cursing at him, anyone or yelling. So enough with the comments to calm down,etc. You've haven't been perfect either. Why stir the pot more?

Try reading post #90, right after it and way before PA reply. It's an ongoing conversation and debate. That's what this forum is, or what I thought it was. If post #90 was way after replies, you'd have a case.

So if you learn something new in say post #100 of a thread and say so, ill just go after your first post in the thread where you didn't know? Ok makes sense?
Actually this has nothing to do with you. Was just talking with PA. He runs this forum and I was just discussing it with him. He can take whatever action he wants or sees fit. That's fine by me, it's his house. But this little frustration and convo was between him and I. That's all.

You keep avoiding my efforts to get the conversation back to the topic. I'm not stirring the pot. I'm trying to discuss the topic.

No one is "going after you."

[tzipi]

You keep avoiding my efforts to get the conversation back to the topic. I'm not stirring the pot. I'm trying to discuss the topic.

No one is "going after you."

OMG. You are ridiculous. :rolleyes: . You never read posts. It's over. Let the thread move on.

[PaceAdvantage]

You don't adress a lot of people here in a adult manner. "Hey Tzipi quit betting horses is my advice to you if you thin skinned." made no sense. From a thread I was calmly debating on with someone else and had facts to back up my posts. Meanwhile other people on threads use language and agressiveness towards people and you say nothing. It's old.

Also again, like everyother person on here and on this forum and on these threads we have multiple posts AS we talk and debate. "The post I initally replied to" You see all the posts. Cmon. Please you clearly read all before posting and it was right below it. It's a running conversation/forum. Why just read up to one point?

From Post #90(right below my original post)

""



So now we or I are judged by one post in a multiple page thread EVEN if we are still debating and learning and posting after? Wow...ok. Keep going after me and my ONE post from a running debate on here. It's fine. Obviously is more important.I could be wrong, but I think you never have actually addressed the point that the drugs listed in the necropsy report were added post injury...you continue to throw all sorts of other (personal) stuff in there on how you're treated...

OK, if you don't want to discuss how your initial post was massively misleading, and how you were taken in by the very organization you claim to hate, that's fine. I understand.

[Dahoss9698]

OMG. You are ridiculous. :rolleyes: . You never read posts. It's over. Let the thread move on.

So you don't want to discuss the topic?

[tzipi]

I could be wrong, but I think you never have actually addressed the point that the drugs listed in the necropsy report were added post injury...you continue to throw all sorts of other (personal) stuff in there on how you're treated...

OK, if you don't want to discuss how your initial post was massively misleading, and how you were taken in by the very organization you claim to hate, that's fine. I understand.

Pace I saw an article about the breakdown. I posted it. Your first post responding to me considering my post #90, was kind of rude. WHY not just answer nicely? Other people on other threads have mentioned the injuries too. I then said I hope this is wrong and does anyone have any information that combats this. Hoping they did. They did. Which was great. It's an ongoing forum where you maybe right maybe wrong and learn things as things move on. Tons of other people here have discussed things, posted different takes,etc. Yes was mad i've been called out for calm posts in other threads when other people skate by even while using curse words or agressiveness. Wasn't the only one to see that.
Just because someone dislikes a group because they kill innocent dogs doesn't mean a necropsy report HAS to be false.

If you want to continue on this topic, you can. I do not. I posted a article and then said right after anybody got any other takes and said boy I hope this is wrong and drugs were after injury. This is so common here and not the only one who thinks this is weird considering I corrected myself and asked others if this is false way before you even posted to me(POST #90).

Again, I think it's over and done with. If you want to continue asking me about original post and post #90 which was right after it, go ahead. It's your house, your rules, your choice. Enjoy Pace ;)

[tzipi]

So you don't want to discuss the topic?

No, you can try reading orginal post and POST #90 right after it where I said I hope this is not true and then saw answers for that. BTW your nose is brown. Gnight DaHoss. ;)

[Dahoss9698]

No, you can try reading orginal post and POST #90 right after it where I said I hope this is not true. BTW your nose is brown. Gnight DaHoss. ;)

Solid response.

[PaceAdvantage]

Solid response.It's amazing how tzipi criticizes me for making things personal, yet that's all he/she has done here.

Now he/she has resorted to calling you a brown noser...you...of all people...how many fights have we gotten into the past year? :lol:

At least we cleared up one thing. All those nasty drugs pumped into Outlaw Yodeler's system were given POST-injury...and if that's all that was accomplished, I say job well done... :ThmbUp:

[tzipi]

It's amazing how tzipi criticizes me for making things personal, yet that's all he/she has done here.

Now he/she has resorted to calling you a brown noser...you...of all people...how many fights have we gotten into the past year? :lol:

At least we cleared up one thing. All those nasty drugs pumped into Outlaw Yodeler's system were given POST-injury...and if that's all that was accomplished, I say job well done... :ThmbUp:

Gotcha Pace this is really mature.
Post #85 Put up report off of Forbes.

Post #90 I said anyone disagree or have better news and that I hope the sedatives were there form after injury. Glad they were :) . Wish they used younger horses is all I've said now.

Then your first post to me in reply I SEE I am wrong but you have to once again be rude about it, instead of just saying I was wrong. That's all. This is ongoing and not the only to see it. Why always be rude. I showed you other threads backing this. So know I have to keep on getting pounded because I posted a report? Guess you were never wrong in life. ;)

"Dahoss you nose is brown" is a big personal thing? OK sorry for that harsh statement after he keeps pricking me way after I saw report was wrong and talked about it.

[Robert Fischer]

Probably gonna watch the last episode again...

[PaceAdvantage]

Gotcha Pace this is really mature.
Post #85 Put up report off of Forbes.

Post #90 I said anyone disagree or have better news and that I hope the sedatives were there form after injury. Glad they were :) . Wish they used younger horses is all I've said now.

Then your first post to me in reply I SEE I am wrong but you have to once again be rude about it, instead of just saying I was wrong. That's all. This is ongoing and not the only to see it. Why always be rude. I showed you other threads backing this. So know I have to keep on getting pounded because I posted a report? Guess you were never wrong in life. ;)

"Dahoss you nose is brown" is a big personal thing? OK sorry for that harsh statement after he keeps pricking me way after I saw report was wrong and talked about it.Look man, I'm pissed this show was cancelled. I'm also pissed that one of the reasons it was cancelled was because of the misleading information bandied about by PETA.

So, when you come on here posting the same misleading information, I am going to respond. I'm going to tell you to think logically. Ask yourself what kind of drugs are in that necropsy report. Then ask yourself what kind of drugs are given to horses who have suffered major injuries. Ask yourself if you really think the producers of Luck are going to want to use horses that have to be running on those kinds of powerful drugs (and really, how well could they perform if they had all those drugs running through their system...how useful could they really be?)

That's all I was saying. Sorry you took it all the wrong way. There was no reason to get so super-duper defensive. What did I say that was so wrong? Telling you to think logically...wow...what a horrible thing to say...then telling you that you're just like PETA with that post...which you were...

Yes, these were all high crimes and misdemeanors...Mr. Meany I am...

To have you go off on some diatribe about my conduct both in this thread and everywhere else you and I have interacted is disingenuous and totally deflective. And no, I'm not going to back down in the face of such nonsense being written about me in a topic I am quite passionate about...

I started this thread...and you willingly decided to participate in it...of course I'm going to respond.

[tzipi]

Look man, I'm pissed this show was cancelled. I'm also pissed that one of the reasons it was cancelled was because of the misleading information bandied about by PETA.

So, when you come on here posting the same misleading information, I am going to respond. I'm going to tell you to think logically. Ask yourself what kind of drugs are in that necropsy report. Then ask yourself what kind of drugs are given to horses who have suffered major injuries. Ask yourself if you really think the producers of Luck are going to want to use horses that have to be running on those kinds of powerful drugs (and really, how well could they perform if they had all those drugs running through their system...how useful could they really be?)

That's all I was saying. Sorry you took it all the wrong way. There was no reason to get so super-duper defensive. What did I say that was so wrong? Telling you to think logically...wow...what a horrible thing to say...then telling you that you're just like PETA with that post...which you were...

Yes, these were all high crimes and misdemeanors...Mr. Meany I am...

To have you go off on some diatribe about my conduct both in this thread and everywhere else you and I have interacted is disingenuous and totally deflective. And no, I'm not going to back down in the face of such nonsense being written about me in a topic I am quite passionate about...

I started this thread...and you willingly decided to participate in it...of course I'm going to respond.


Fair enough Pace. You just had to say I was wrong or Forbes link report of Necropsy was wrong in reply. Reply just irked me because I said before I hope this report is wrong. Just because I don't agree with someone or a group doesn't mean I will always assume they are liars. I did say to you I agree with you about them and that I hate the dog aspect of them.
Stinks it got to this and as I said, maybe I wasn't right in all my posts here. Well I know you are passionate about this and the forum you've built. I have said that numerous times to you. I know the show was good and good to have for fans and you would love to watch it. Can't fault you and your opinion of that.
Well hopefully this can end and we can go on discussing how to make things better in the game. Enjoy Pace.

[comet52]

I will tell you that I happen to know an executive from HBO and my comments are not mine, but lets just say that they came directly from the horses mouth.

In fact his exact words to me were, "HBO does not need this".

________
David-LV

He meant they don't need a show where no one would be watching by the 3rd episode of season 2.