Azeri in Lukas Barn

[Drew]

Per the Blood Horse website


http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=19761

[Milleruszk]

Lucas could use a live horse in his barn. This was a terrible year for him.

Tom

[rrbauer]

From the article:
Michael Paulson told the Form that a recent examination of Azeri showed "no swelling, no fibers out of alignment. The insurance report says it's a 'miraculous recovery,' " he said.

Lukas is famous for having problem horses declared sound until he runs them. As the ambulance pulls away with the cadaver aboard, Lukas has been heard to say, "This is a big mystery to me. She was fine this morning".

[Tom]

I feel bad for Azeri.
I remeber Lady's Secret....anyone in the world could see she did not want to run anymore, expect this AH.
I have not one ounce of respect for this SOB.
:(

[so.cal.fan]

I concur with Tom!
Shame on these people, bringing this mare back.

[SAL]

The filly I remember him running into the ground was Serena's Song. Shameful how many times he ran this filly in a short span. Hope the owners of Azeri know what they're getting into.

[Observer]

An owner has a right to pull the plug on any horse's career .. or the right to change to horse to a different trainer. Maybe Lady's Secret was a mistake .. and I think I've read where Lukas has admitted to that .. however, unless I'm forgetting something .. I have to disagree about Serena's Song.

As for Azeri .. it had never been officially announced that she was retired, anyway .. and it certainly can not be said that it is the decision of Lukas to bring her back. What's lousy for him, is that he may be getting damaged goods, and it could make him look bad if she runs horribly .. and if she gets hurt in a race, or while training, that is going to be his fault, despite the fact that she had an injury from which she has now had a "miraculous recovery." One might wonder if she was ever really hurt in the first place.

One thing's for sure .. Lukas won't be afraid of running her .. in my opinion .. this is his kind of challenge.

[PaceAdvantage]

You know, if it's one thing I dislike more than a Lukas basher, I don't know what it is. This guy gets knocked more than anyone out there, AND MOST OF IT IS UNDESERVED.

Lady's Secret, Lady's Secret, Lady's Secret......GIVE IT A REST. It's OLD NEWS.


Here's one I read the other day, but I don't hear the Lukas bashers saying anything about it.....

THEY ARE BRINGING BACK STORM FLAG FLYING.....

Come on Lukas bashers...why aren't you crying out about the decision to bring back Storm Flag Flying??

If ever there was a horse in recent memory whose on-track performance was screaming out "I don't want to race anymore" it was her.....

But, I don't hear any Lukas "Lady's Secret" bashers rallying around Storm Flag Flying.....if Storm Flag Flying were trained by Lukas, there would be a HUGE OUTCRY, and you guys KNOW IT.

[Buddha]

I'm not a Lukas hater, but I don't see a legitiment reason to bring Azeri back unless she were bringing down a stall door. She doesn't really have anything left to prove, and if there really was a bowed tendon, what need is there to race her further and risk injury. Within a few months, it will be breeding season, and I am sure they could either keep her, or make a fare share either selling her at auction before breeding, or selling her in foal.

What else does she have to prove other than going 14:12-2-0 or whatever her actual record is? Try for another Breeders Cup? I don't see them getting another HOTY from her next year, unless they ran her against the boys.

Unless she is chomping at the bit and ready to race again, I see no reason to bring her back.

Just my couple pennies :)

[PaceAdvantage]

Let's just make it clear that the RESPONSIBILITY lies 100% with the OWNER of ANY horse when the decision is made to BRING THEM BACK.

Sure, Lukas can offer an opinion, but the owner is the one that decides if Azeri steps another competitive hoof on a racetrack again.

SO...if Azeri does come back, be it with Lukas or ANY OTHER trainer, and it DOESN'T WORK OUT, the blame should start and stop with Paulson......

I for one hope Azeri DOES come back, and I hope she kicks butt.

All the pussy-footing around with horses these days is starting to wear thin. People can talk all they want about how horses aren't as sturdy as they were back in the days when horses ran 5 times a week (ok, so that's a bit of hyperbole), but that is NOT the case with ALL horses. You can't generalize this sort of thing.

People want to talk about how horses are NOT machines. This is TRUE, and it is also TRUE that some horses ARE capable of running more frequently, and running tougher campaigns.

Anyway, I digress.......

[Buddha]

I agree PA, it should start and stop with the owner. I still stand by my thought that there really is nothing else to prove with this mare. Unless she truely is 100%, there is no reason to run her.

There are too many trainers and owners who "take it too easy" on their horses. I mean hell, Seasbiscuit ran 35 times as a 2yo. I understand that they didn't think much of him, he was usually quick to recover and is a drastic example, but why only run horses like Mineshaft 6 or 8 times and say they are the best? With the example of Mineshaft in mind, yes, he was good, yes he may have been the best horse this year, and had bone chips, but too many horses like him that are 100% sound are not raced enough.

With that little rant out of the way, I am also with you in I would like to see Azeri woop some horse butt in 2004.

I just wonder why Paulson waited so long to switch trainers. He says he expressed interest in trying her against the males this past year, but was overruled by DeSeroux. If Paulson is the owner, and wanted to see the horse run against the males, why not force her or switch trainers earlier?

[PaceAdvantage]

I'd like to correct something I wrote....I would like to modify my words "If it's one thing I dislike more than a Lukas basher" to read "If it's one thing I dislike more than Lukas BASHING"

I like Tom and RR Bauer very much and wouldn't want them to get the wrong idea from that post.....LOL

[Milleruszk]

:confused:

Come on guys we (the racing fans) can not have it both ways. We complain when horses are prematurely "retired" and complain when they are "unretired". I guess everthing in racing can be traced back to the old racing adage "woulda, shoulda, coulda". What a great game!! No wonder I love it as much as I do!

Tom

[Tom]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
I'd like to correct something I wrote....I would like to modify my words "If it's one thing I dislike more than a Lukas basher" to read "If it's one thing I dislike more than Lukas BASHING"

I like Tom and RR Bauer very much and wouldn't want them to get the wrong idea from that post.....LOL


Hey, don't worry about anything you say here-we are all friends here (most of us anyways). You are very passionate in your opinion on this and that is a good thing.
We all get a little heated sometimes when our buttons are pushed. I won't bring it up again out of respect for your feelings on the subject. If they can't P**** me off on the Off topics forum, you will never do it out here <G>
Merry Christmas, my friend.

[so.cal.fan]

PA
you can add so.cal.fan to your list of Lukas bashers, and I accept your correction/apology.
Lukas is not a bad trainer....but he doesn't know when to stop on horses and has broken down many over the years that we have seen. He is disliked by many horse lovers and also disliked for his ego maniac type personality.
He has been good for the sport as well, he gets a lot of national media attention.
Some tough horses do well with his training.......many do not.
I really do not like nor dislike him.......I just would never put a horse I owned in his barn.

[SAL]

so.cal.fan just about sums it up for me. I am not slamming Lukas for his ability as a trainer, just his tendency to over race his horses. I remember Serena's Song running against males in some big race after a tough campaign, and if I remember correctly she got blitzed in that race. I've never liked him since then.

[VetScratch]

From the original article:
Michael Paulson told the Form that a recent examination of Azeri showed "no swelling, no fibers out of alignment. The insurance report says it's a 'miraculous recovery,' " he said.The big owner/trainer interests have always been "clever" users of insurance... remember how Cigar's fertility problems were insured in a way that got old man Paulsen (R.I.P.) off the hook after the syndication deal was banked. Go For Wand was no surprise either, because many backsiders who watched her go in the mornings thought she had become an accident waiting to happen.

Could it be that Azeri has fertility problems? I hope and pray she is sound and is being brought back for legitimate reasons.

[Observer]

Originally posted by VetScratch
... remember how Cigar's fertility problems were insured in a way that got old man Paulsen (R.I.P.) off the ...

Anyone with a horse like Cigar that didn't have him insured in such a way would have been foolish .. and Paulson never got Cigar back .. he eventually was sent to the Kentucky Horse Park, not back to Paulson, as he desired.

Originally posted by SAL
... I remember Serena's Song running against males in some big race after a tough campaign, and if I remember correctly she got blitzed in that race. ...

I checked out the record of Serena's Song .. because I really can't figure out why her name keeps coming up in this thread .. and I'm still baffled.

Serena's Song closed out her career with four races against fillies, all seconds (G1 Ruffian, G1 Beldame, G1 BC Distaff, G2 CD Distaff).

These four races came after 2 starts against the boys .. a second in the G1 Whitney, and a third in the G1 Iselin.

In her last year of racing, in 1996, the only off the board finish she turned in was in the G1 Santa Anita Handicap against the boys .. when seventh .. maybe this is the race SAL is referring to??? But she did go on to win after that .. including the G1 Hempstead.

Prior to 1996, she had four starts against the boys ... a win in the G1 Haskell, 16th in the Kentucky Derby, a win in the G2 Jim Beam, and a half-length defeat when second in the G2 Hollywood Juvenile Championship.

From 38 starts, she finished with a record of 18 wins, 11 seconds, and 3 thirds .. meaning she finished off the board just six times .. three of which came in her 2-year-old year .. including her first two career starts.

She won an astounding 11 G1 races .. including one against boys .. and when she retired .. she was the richest female. And while she clearly had her best success in 1995 as a 3-year-old .. she was still a wonderful filly at four .. just not the win-machine she had been .. of her last seven starts, all loses, she ran second in six .. with the biggest margin of defeat just three lengths .. the one time she wasn't second was when she was beaten 3 1/4-lengths in the Iselin.

Who can say without a doubt that had she been raced less, or skipped the SA Handicap, that she would have gone on to a better 1996??? She had won her first two starts of the year against the females .. so what that she was tested against the boys .. you know .. the only other equally bad performance out of her was the Kentucky Derby .. also run at 10 furlongs .. and she bounced right back out of that.

She had an ambitious campaign .. but not one for which Lukas should be criticized. So many owners would love to have a horse with just half as good a year as she had after the SA Handicap in 1996.

[Observer]

As if I haven't already said enough regarding Serena's Song .. her off-the-board finish in her second career start was in stakes company .. she broke her maiden in her next start when back with maiden special weight company.

[SAL]

I never doubted her ability or her record. I was an interested racing fan who rooted for her when I saw her run. Her record was outstanding, I know. But her campaign at 4 is what I'm talking about. Obviously she was not the same horse, she should have been retired. Of course this is MY OPINION, of course there are many of you that think otherwise.

[VetScratch]

Observer,
Anyone with a horse like Cigar that didn't have him insured in such a way would have been foolish .. and Paulson never got Cigar back .. he eventually was sent to the Kentucky Horse Park, not back to Paulson, as he desired.Few doubt that Cigar was checked prior to the syndication deal and should have been red-flagged then (and would have been if he didn't have special connections). Disingenuous insurance deals just drive up the equine premuiums for ordinary owners without extraordinary clout. Some backsiders have suggested that the end of Go For Wand's career may have been such a deal (i.e., extra insurance after a problem was detected).

[Observer]

Clearly her best year was as a 3-year-old .. but why retire a horse that is still capable of winning and running well at the top of the game?? That to me is silly .. 2nd in the BC Distaff as a 4-year-old is pretty sweet .. even if it is 2nd .. and it was a better showing then when she was a 3-year-old and ran fifth, beaten nearly 19 lengths. How can you blame them for going on with her for another try at the Breeders' Cup at age four???

That's one of the things so many people hate about this game .. when a horse gets good .. real good .. they race less and/or are retired early/prematurely, injured or not.

SAL .. I understand YOUR OPINION .. I'm just giving a counter-arguement as to her racing as a 4-year-old. To me, she showed no indications that she should have been removed from the game, or that she was being mismanaged. And obviously, that is just MY OPINION.
;)

[Observer]

Originally posted by VetScratch
Observer,
Few doubt that Cigar was checked prior to the syndication deal and should have been red-flagged then (and would have been if he didn't have special connections). Disingenuous insurance deals just drive up the equine premuiums for ordinary owners without extraordinary clout. Some backsiders have suggested that the end of Go For Wand's career may have been such a deal (i.e., extra insurance after a problem was detected).

First of all .. I'm not getting into speculation .. I try to refrain from doing that. Second .. all I said was that anyone with a horse like Cigar would have been foolish not to carry that kind of insurance .. and who can say for sure had it been anyone else that there would have been a red flag. We've seen too many horses with big sticker prices turn out to be a dud. War Emblem is the latest example.

As for Go For Wand, I read your comment on that the first time you posted it .. just didn't feel the need to acknowledge what it is that you're implying .. which to me reads as if they purposely ran her in the hopes she'd break down. If this were the case with Go for Wand .. where was the outcry?? Like the outcry against Lukas and so many of the horses he's trained?? I can not recall anything but sadness surrounding her breakdown .. never any backlash from poor judgement or training .. or ulterior motives .. as you suggest.

[VetScratch]

No, they don't run horses to break them down... they just pile on insurance at the first sign of a problem... and then take risks that few would accept without the insurance. It happens all the time. Owners hope for the best, but use insurance to venture past the point where the horse's health is the primary concern.

There was no backlash with Go For Wand just as there usually is no backlash. You find backlash when noteriety attracts it... lot's of folks developed strong feelings of envy or dislike for Lukas, so he take a lot of heat when other trainers would never be questioned. Lukas is quite charming and a superb dresser in comparison to most trainers... reminds me of song Werewolves of London, where Lukas' detractors would still love to meet his tailor!

[ceejay]

From an economic sense, why they don't breed her this season is beyond me (not that they can't breed and run her).

[Suff]

When they manage the Animals Career They get knocked...

When they don't race them they get knocked.....

Owners a wimp.. Horse is a Fraud.. Trainer is afraid of racing against so and so.

They know what they are doing... And I think Her previous trainer was a bit off... something about her...and I read everything Kielan Posted ..and if in fact that was her... did anyone else pick up that she was wierd a little.. Harvard square-EarthTone wierd?

I'll tell you one thing... If she goes..and she breaks down,, Racing is back on the front page in another negative national story.. So I hope to hell they know what they are doing...

[Observer]

Don't know when they'd be looking to bring her back for a first start .. but if they got her to a race in February or even March .. and things didn't work out, they'd still have time to get her to the breeding shed for the upcoming season.

But in general .. the breeding aspect is different for a female than for a male .. the boys can make tons of money in their first season .. unless a female is sold directly after her retirement, or after being confirmed in foal (which would be an expense .. especially depending on which sire she'd go to) .. the female is not going to generate anywhere near the dollar amount a male can.

And did it ever occur to anyone .. that maybe this guy just wants to see her run a bit more??? Could it be that maybe an owner actually gets enjoyment out of seeing his horses run, and is not totally focused in on the almighty dollar??? Just some random thoughts .. I'm not actually looking for answers to those questions.

[delayjf]

Seems to me that Lukas is not the only trainer to get bit with the triple crown bug. Baffert has run/trained his share of 3yr olds into the dirt as well.

[Observer]

In all fairness .. how many good 2yos does the sport see go on to be good 3yos??? (Very, very few). How many potential Triple Crown contenders get hurt at the beginning of their 3yo year??? (Too many to keep track of each year). Lukas and Baffert are easy targets, because they have had the biggest stock in this category, so it would be logical to expect them to have the highest number of incidents .. especially considering these potential Triple Crown contenders are the horses that make the public's attention more so than any other. And though it may be that they would appear to have a higher number of incidents .. that doesn't mean they are higher on average when compared to other trainers' histories. Many other trainers have horses so low profile, or low enough .. that it's much simpler for them to hide the incident like nothing ever happen .. often-times only to be found out if the horse eventually does make it back to the races after a prolonged layoff.

[Tom]

Originally posted by Observer
In all fairness .. how many good 2yos does the sport see go on to be good 3yos??? (Very, very few). How many potential Triple Crown contenders get hurt at the beginning of their 3yo year??? (Too many to keep track of each year).

So does this mean that the breed is far too cheap and frail nowadays to stand up to the training and racing schedules established years ago? Does it mean that 2yos are being pushed to the races far too soon?
My opinion, yes. I don't think any crops in the last 10 years compare to the crops of the 60's-70's and early 80's.
The breed has been so diluted and poor traits have been allowed to be bred and now florish becasue the number of tacks and races and days has increased so much, and the lack of a racing season only serves to hurt the breed. I think the Lukas's and the Baffert's get so much heat because they are the guys t the top, the guys that have it made by comparison, the guys that have the money (usually not thier own) behind them, and the guys that should now better. But when you wave trip crown entry slip in fornt of them, they lose their focus. Just look at the stupid calls Baffert made about selecting the far outside posts for the triple crown races a couple of years back. Wiht the modern track surfaces and maintenance in existence today, the horses should be better off than they were generations ago, but they are coming into the game bred bad to begin with, and then pushed into breaking for races that are too soon for their developement.
I remeber when I uses to watcht eh 2yos closely each year looking for the few that would rise to top the next year. Now, any 2 that shows anything, I pretty much don't bother with. Winning the KY derby just insn't a sign of greatness anymore-how many winners come back go onto greatness?

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Tom
So does this mean that the breed is far too cheap and frail nowadays to stand up to the training and racing schedules established years ago?

go over to Equibase and Download Seabiscuits past performances
it was a different world......in more ways than one........

[PaceAdvantage]

The harsh reality of it all is that if we are ever to return to those "Golden Years", we're going to have to start running our horses harder. The one's that survive the grind will in turn produce hardier offspring. It's Darwin to the core, but that's the way things are, unfortunately.....

[Pace Cap'n]

Much has been made of Seabiscuit's 35 races in his first year. But a major portion of those races were short sprints, distances that are not even carded nowadays. About half of the 35 were essentially public workouts.

Maybe those 3.5 - 4.0 furlong races were carded for 2-yr. olds back then for a reason: To build up the horses without breaking them down.

[westny]

Originally posted by Pace Cap'n
Much has been made of Seabiscuit's 35 races in his first year. But a major portion of those races were short sprints, distances that are not even carded nowadays. About half of the 35 were essentially public workouts.

Maybe those 3.5 - 4.0 furlong races were carded for 2-yr. olds back then for a reason: To build up the horses without breaking them down.

and I'd add that he never carried more than 108 lbs in any of those races.