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postpicker
03-10-2012, 08:37 AM
Bill Finley brought up some interesting points with his article on Ghostzapper this week. With many of the best horses in racing having shortened careers for one reason or another, it will be interesting to see how some voters view these horses. So I ask you at PA, do you think any of these horses deserve to be in the HOF, with one horse that I know will bring a lot of controversy:

Smarty Jones
Afleet Alex
Invasor
Bernardini
Rags to Riches
Barbaro
aaron
03-10-2012, 10:07 AM
I would probably not put any of them in. I haven't seen any horses in recent times that i'd call great.
With no real Handicap Races,where horses have to give weight and most good horses ducking each other till the Breeders Cup,I find it hard to call any of them great.
In my opinion a horse should have at the minimum ,15-20 races in a career before it can be called great.
Tom
03-10-2012, 10:30 AM
Invasor, he is the best!
classhandicapper
03-10-2012, 11:21 AM
I would definitely vote for Invasor.

All the rest were on the verge of greatness, but it's harder to justify.
Some_One
03-10-2012, 11:26 AM
Given how we have Derby and Classic winners barely breaking 100 on the Beyer scale, I don't know how you can dismiss Zapper and his 110's & 120 because he didn't run as many races as 1930's claimers.
Robert Fischer
03-10-2012, 12:46 PM
Horses today are prima donnas.
PaceAdvantage
03-11-2012, 12:00 AM
Smarty Jones
Afleet Alex
Invasor
Bernardini
Rags to Riches
Barbaro

Nope
Nope
Yes
Nope
Nope
Would like to, but can't...
Spalding No!
03-11-2012, 12:13 AM
I can't really remember what sort of figures Invasor put up, but I do remember him beating Wanderin Boy, A.P. Arrow, Wild Desert and Sun King. Of course, those lofty achievements are tempered by the fact that he was beaten a pole by Discreet Cat.

Huge thumbs down.

Rags To Riches accomplished about as much as Winning Colors, who I have no idea if she's in the HOF or not.
affirmedny
03-11-2012, 12:21 AM
I can't really remember what sort of figures Invasor put up, but I do remember him beating Wanderin Boy, A.P. Arrow, Wild Desert and Sun King. Of course, those lofty achievements are tempered by the fact that he was beaten a pole by Discreet Cat.

Huge thumbs down.

Rags To Riches accomplished about as much as Winning Colors, who I have no idea if she's in the HOF or not.
Of course Invasor came back and drubbed Discreet Cat.....
Spalding No!
03-11-2012, 12:29 AM
Of course Invasor came back and drubbed Discreet Cat.....
A lot of horses drubbed Discreet Cat when he finally reappeared.
PaceAdvantage
03-11-2012, 12:30 AM
I can't really remember what sort of figures Invasor put up, but I do remember him beating Wanderin Boy, A.P. Arrow, Wild Desert and Sun King. Of course, those lofty achievements are tempered by the fact that he was beaten a pole by Discreet Cat.

Huge thumbs down.

Rags To Riches accomplished about as much as Winning Colors, who I have no idea if she's in the HOF or not.Rags To Riches raced seven times. Las Virgenes, SA Oaks, Kentucky Oaks and Belmont Stakes were her stakes wins.

Winning Colors is in the HOF (2000). Raced 19 times...won 8...SA Oaks, SA Derby, Kentucky Derby, Turfway BC Stakes (now Kentucky Cup Distaff). Had the unfortunate luck of running into Personal Ensign twice along the way, running to within a whisker of her in the BC Distaff.

Invasor:

Won 11 of 12 lifetime including:
Suburban
Pimlico Special
Whitney
BC Classic
Dubai World Cup
Donn Handicap

After review, I still say thumbs down to RTR and thumbs up to Invasor.
MickJ26
03-11-2012, 10:13 AM
What hurts Smarty Jones' chances is he was never allowed to be a handicap horse.
Rise Over Run
03-11-2012, 10:57 AM
What hurts Smarty Jones' chances is he was never ABLE to be a handicap horse.
FTFY

Smarty was retired because he was physically crippled after the Triple Crown run. He still wasn't walking right when they did a short feature of him for the following year's Kentucky Derby. When they realized he wasn't making it back to the track in 2004 and probably a good portion of 2005, they made the deal to send him to stud. The Chapman's would have loved to continue running him into his 4yo season.
MickJ26
03-11-2012, 10:17 PM
FTFY

Smarty was retired because he was physically crippled after the Triple Crown run. He still wasn't walking right when they did a short feature of him for the following year's Kentucky Derby. When they realized he wasn't making it back to the track in 2004 and probably a good portion of 2005, they made the deal to send him to stud. The Chapman's would have loved to continue running him into his 4yo season.

I wasn't aware of that. I thought he was retired immediately after the Belmont. I stand corrected. What does FTFY stand for?
Cholly
03-11-2012, 10:22 PM
Nope
Nope
Yes
Nope
Nope
Would like to, but can't...

Ditto all of the above
guckers
03-12-2012, 01:50 AM
I wasn't aware of that. I thought he was retired immediately after the Belmont. I stand corrected. What does FTFY stand for?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ftfy
PaceAdvantage
03-12-2012, 02:46 AM
After review, I still say thumbs down to RTR and thumbs up to Invasor.And by the way, I have to say that Winning Colors is a pretty suspect Hall of Famer. RTR almost did just as much as WC (but let's face it, the Derby carries more weight than the Belmont), and I would not seriously consider RTR a Hall of Fame type.

BUT, Winning Colors did win the Derby and she came within 3/4 of a length of Personal Ensign in the Maskette and almost held her off by a lip in the BC Distaff...I'm sure that had something to do with her getting in...but she is a dicey entrant at best in hindsight.
shouldacoulda
03-12-2012, 04:29 AM
I recently found a list of HOF horses. I don't know if it was complete but I was disappointed that Hoist The Flag was not on it. I know he had a shortened career but he was one hell of a horse.
Cardus
03-12-2012, 12:51 PM
I recently found a list of HOF horses. I don't know if it was complete but I was disappointed that Hoist The Flag was not on it. I know he had a shortened career but he was one hell of a horse.

The horse was brilliant, but come on...

Wouldn't it be fairer to say "disasppointed that his career was cut short by injury" than to be disappointed that he is not in the Hall of Fame?
shouldacoulda
03-12-2012, 05:23 PM
The horse was brilliant, but come on...

Wouldn't it be fairer to say "disasppointed that his career was cut short by injury" than to be disappointed that he is not in the Hall of Fame?
I would have to say both. JMO
MickJ26
03-12-2012, 07:27 PM
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ftfy

Okay, gotcha. Smarty Jones did come about a furlong away from immortality, though. That's basically the difference between footnote in history and legend status.
CryingForTheHorses
03-12-2012, 07:30 PM
FTFY

Smarty was retired because he was physically crippled after the Triple Crown run. He still wasn't walking right when they did a short feature of him for the following year's Kentucky Derby. When they realized he wasn't making it back to the track in 2004 and probably a good portion of 2005, they made the deal to send him to stud. The Chapman's would have loved to continue running him into his 4yo season.


WOW!! Thankyou sir..Back when Smarty Jones was running the triple crown,They showed a clip of him cooling out.I did say then that he wasnt walking right.The thread Im sure is in the archives and there was a great debate over my words.
CyberBet
03-13-2012, 01:42 PM
I will say this, Invasor should be a lock if this horse (http://www.racingmuseum.org/hall-of-fame/horses-view.asp?varID=695) made it to the HOF.
Spalding No!
03-13-2012, 02:09 PM
I will say this, Invasor should be a lock if this horse (http://www.racingmuseum.org/hall-of-fame/horses-view.asp?varID=695) made it to the HOF.
In the realm of juvenile and 3yo fillies, Open Mind was one of the best. She put together one of the great campaigns of her division, winning at the top level at 8f, 8.5f, 9f, 10f, and 12f in the span of 10 months (with an additional graded win at 7f). From the BC Juvenile Fillies onwards, she took down every prestigious race for her age group save the Test Stakes.
the little guy
03-13-2012, 02:17 PM
In the realm of juvenile and 3yo fillies, Open Mind was one of the best. She put together one of the great campaigns of her division, winning at the top level at 8f, 8.5f, 9f, 10f, and 12f in the span of 10 months (with an additional graded win at 7f). From the BC Juvenile Fillies onwards, she took down every prestigious race for her age group save the Test Stakes.


I agree, but it would be nice in her Hall of Fame write-up if when they referenced her CCA Oaks " win " if they said it was via DQ.
Spalding No!
03-13-2012, 02:38 PM
I agree, but it would be nice in her Hall of Fame write-up if when they referenced her CCA Oaks " win " if they said it was via DQ.
All the HOF write-ups are horrendous. And the race records are atrocious. It's like the back of a baseball card.

Why don't they get together with DRF or Equibase and put up some meaningful PPs?

No wonder racing is in the tubes.
Rise Over Run
03-13-2012, 09:10 PM
WOW!! Thankyou sir..Back when Smarty Jones was running the triple crown,They showed a clip of him cooling out.I did say then that he wasnt walking right.The thread Im sure is in the archives and there was a great debate over my words.

Well I wasn't around on PA in 2004 and I'm not sure how to dig through the older archives, but I'll take your word for your observations. I know your a good horseman from what I read here as well as my limited involvement in a racing partnership with Mike D in ~2006.

All things considered, the John Servis barn did an outstanding job keeping Smarty together for as long as they did. He gets a lot of flak for his training regiment between the Preakness and Belmont. Smarty really should have won that race, bad feet and all, and reached "immortal" status whether he ever ran again or not.

The Chapman's had extremely strong roots in the Philly area and wanted to run Smarty in the PA Derby, where a record crowd would have surely packed in to Philly Park.

Fragile breed..., yup. As great as he was for a 4 month stretch in 2004, Smarty doesn't belong in the HOF.
PaceAdvantage
03-13-2012, 09:23 PM
Well I wasn't around on PA in 2004 and I'm not sure how to dig through the older archives, but I'll take your word for your observations..Here you go:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=111978&highlight=Smarty#post111765
Dahoss9698
03-13-2012, 09:31 PM
Where is the "great debate" over that opinion?
PaceAdvantage
03-13-2012, 09:36 PM
Where is the "great debate" over that opinion?In subsequent threads (especially after he was officially retired). I believe in the "Smarty Jones Retired" thread specifically...or maybe not...I just looked that one over...

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13848&page=1&pp=15