Top 5 NBA players

[cj]

These are my top 5, right now, past glory doesn't count:
Lebron
KD
CP3
D-Rose
Dirk

How about you guys?

[cj's dad]

Shocked that you have included no- one from the Wiz.

1- KD
2- LeBron
3-Dirk
4-Rose
5- Lin

Honorable mention- DW- can't help, I love the guy !!

[Valuist]

These are my top 5, right now, past glory doesn't count:
Lebron
KD
CP3
D-Rose
Dirk

How about you guys?

First four the same but my fifth player would either be Kevin Love or DeWayne Wade.

[cj]

First four the same but my fifth player would either be Kevin Love or DeWayne Wade.
I could buy Wade, but Love has some glaring weaknesses. He wouldn't be in my top 10, maybe 15. I'd take LA over him in a second. Howard, Griffin, Carmelo, and Westbook are others just off the top of my head.

[Valuist]

I could buy Wade, but Love has some glaring weaknesses. He wouldn't be in my top 10, maybe 15. I'd take LA over him in a second. Howard, Griffin, Carmelo, and Westbook are others just off the top of my head.

Are we talking just pure talent, or who's having the best season(s)? There's no way anyone can say Carmelo is having a better season than Kevin Love.

[menifee]

Dwight Howard needs to be on that list.

Lebron
Wade
Durant
Howard
Rose

Tough call between DN and Wade.

[cj]

Are we talking just pure talent, or who's having the best season(s)? There's no way anyone can say Carmelo is having a better season than Kevin Love.

No, he has been hurt, but I'm talking who is the better player overall now and in the near future, the next year or two. I have one tried and true rule that has rarely let me down when it comes to basketball. Beware the stat sheet stuffers on mediocre or bad teams. Box scores don't tell near whole story in hoops.

If you really need a basket down the stretch, Love is not going to get it without help. He can't beat anyone off the dribble, and he doesn't have a post game. The best hope is to throw up a brick and see if he can get an offensive rebound.

As for Howard, he is a liability at the end of games, and he has very little offense. I can't put a guy like that in the Top 5. The same will go for Blake Griffin if his FT shooting doesn't improve.

[Valuist]

No, he has been hurt, but I'm talking who is the better player overall now and in the near future, the next year or two. I have one tried and true rule that has rarely let me down when it comes to basketball. Beware the stat sheet stuffers on mediocre or bad teams. Box scores don't tell near whole story in hoops.

If you really need a basket down the stretch, Love is not going to get it without help. He can't beat anyone off the dribble, and he doesn't have a post game. The best hope is to throw up a brick and see if he can get an offensive rebound.

As for Howard, he is a liability at the end of games, and he has very little offense. I can't put a guy like that in the Top 5. The same will go for Blake Griffin if his FT shooting doesn't improve.

Ok if we are talking about a final possession, who do you want with the ball in your hands. I have no argument with your original list, except that Wade has to be there somewhere. And what about Kobe? I know he's not as good as he used to be, but to create one's own shot, he's as good as it gets. I would probably bump Paul and put in either Wade or Kobe. Dirk is right there also.

But is that how to judge the top 5 player list? Dwight Howard is one of the top 5 players but I don't want him having to create his own shot. And under that criteria, Love certainly doesn't belong, although the guy is having a great season.

No doubt one can pile up bigger numbers on a bad team. Look at how Bosh's numbers went down when he went from being "the man" in Toronto to just another option in Miami.

[cj]

Ok if we are talking about a final possession, who do you want with the ball in your hands. I have no argument with your original list, except that Wade has to be there somewhere. And what about Kobe? I know he's not as good as he used to be, but to create one's own shot, he's as good as it gets. I would probably bump Paul and put in either Wade or Kobe. Dirk is right there also.

But is that how to judge the top 5 player list? Dwight Howard is one of the top 5 players but I don't want him having to create his own shot. And under that criteria, Love certainly doesn't belong, although the guy is having a great season.

No doubt one can pile up bigger numbers on a bad team. Look at how Bosh's numbers went down when he went from being "the man" in Toronto to just another option in Miami.

I wasn't saying that was the only criteria, just one. Love has a lot of weaknesses. I personally don't think Howard is one of the top 5, but of course it is all opinion.

[Robert Fischer]

WHO CAN BEAT MY TEAM?
These are the top5 players in the NBA and perfectly assembled into

the greatest TEAM of all times.

Feel free to quote and post your current or all-time TEAM that you think can hang with my squad.

PG WADE = BEST IN GAME
2G KOBE = BLACK MAMBA
SF DURANT = LB4LB BEST SCORER
PF LEBRON = 1 WANT 15REBS!:mad:
CF HOWARD = LUCKY 2 BE HERE SON.


RUNDOWN

Wade = you slept on D.Wade? Rose?? as the kids say = REALLY?? Wade is 100x more complete player, I guess we forget how clutch he is with the rock in his hands running the point. He sure handles the 2G great but I love him here at Point on my top5 team. Assists will come naturally with the unselfish nature of having 4 allstars running and gunning with you. Wade plans to frustrate your team's Derrick Rose. Hopefully you guys bring out an all time team because I can't think of any current guys.

KOBE - He isn't on your teams. He's mad.

DURANT - Pure scorer. Figures to take over and get a couple rings soon.

LEBRON - Yea PF. POWER. FORWARD. He's big and explosive enough to play defensive end for the Giants. Stands 6'8 and jumps out of the gym. I just want him to concentrate on rebounds. Just out-move his opponent grab 10-15boards, play hard defense, move the ball passing, and finish in 1-on-1 situations.

SUPERMAN = I really didn't want you on my team. Howard and Griffin are the two biggest representatives of the steroid/gh era in basketball. Two super-human's with very limited games. The fans love the dunks, and these guys are in fact very good at finishing on an unprotected hoop. All they need is a step and are talented enough to finish over and through an NBA center. I really liked true center DeMarcus Cousins here and his strong ability on the offensive glass. I looked at DeAndre Jordan and his blocked shots. But Howard won out for the simple fact that if I don't take Howard he is going to out run or out muscle my guys all game.

[cj]

WHO CAN BEAT MY TEAM?
These are the top5 players in the NBA and perfectly assembled into

the greatest TEAM of all times.

Feel free to quote and post your current or all-time TEAM that you think can hang with my squad.

PG WADE = BEST IN GAME
2G KOBE = BLACK MAMBA
SF DURANT = LB4LB BEST SCORER
PF LEBRON = 1 WANT 15REBS!:mad:
CF HOWARD = LUCKY 2 BE HERE SON.


RUNDOWN

Wade = you slept on D.Wade? Rose?? as the kids say = REALLY?? Wade is 100x more complete player, I guess we forget how clutch he is with the rock in his hands running the point. He sure handles the 2G great but I love him here at Point on my top5 team. Assists will come naturally with the unselfish nature of having 4 allstars running and gunning with you. Wade plans to frustrate your team's Derrick Rose. Hopefully you guys bring out an all time team because I can't think of any current guys.

KOBE - He isn't on your teams. He's mad.

DURANT - Pure scorer. Figures to take over and get a couple rings soon.

LEBRON - Yea PF. POWER. FORWARD. He's big and explosive enough to play defensive end for the Giants. Stands 6'8 and jumps out of the gym. I just want him to concentrate on rebounds. Just out-move his opponent grab 10-15boards, play hard defense, move the ball passing, and finish in 1-on-1 situations.

SUPERMAN = I really didn't want you on my team. Howard and Griffin are the two biggest representatives of the steroid/gh era in basketball. Two super-human's with very limited games. The fans love the dunks, and these guys are in fact very good at finishing on an unprotected hoop. All they need is a step and are talented enough to finish over and through an NBA center. I really liked true center DeMarcus Cousins here and his strong ability on the offensive glass. I looked at DeAndre Jordan and his blocked shots. But Howard won out for the simple fact that if I don't take Howard he is going to out run or out muscle my guys all game.

Wade at PG? I can't read the rest after that. He can't play point guard. There is nobody better than Chris Paul right now. I couldn't argue much with anybody wanting Rose either, if we are going strictly by position.

[elysiantraveller]

PG CP3 = BEST IN GAME
2G WADE/DROSE

FTFY.

That would be the best team you could make. The rest is fine. Derrick Rose would make a great 2 guard.

As for CJ's original top 5 (best in league) I think thats spot on.

[Valuist]

Here's another one: how about best supporting parts. These guys are not going to be top 5 superstars, but they clearly make their teams better:

1. Manu Ginobli---pretty much does everything well. And he's still somewhat under the radar.
2. Chauncy Billips---yeah he's out for the year, and maybe for good. Too bad; great team player.
3. Shane Battier---once they started adding Sabermetric like stats for things like defense, Battier scored at the top. Great addition by the Heat.
4. Jeremy Lin---a month ago today the guy played one game in the NBDL and lit it up, earning a trip back to New York. A bit turnover prone but the positives have more than outweighed that. He fits the system great.

Oh yeah, D-Wade is NOT a point guard.

[elysiantraveller]

Here's another one: how about best supporting parts. These guys are not going to be top 5 superstars, but they clearly make their teams better:

1. Manu Ginobli---pretty much does everything well. And he's still somewhat under the radar.
2. Chauncy Billips---yeah he's out for the year, and maybe for good. Too bad; great team player.
3. Shane Battier---once they started adding Sabermetric like stats for things like defense, Battier scored at the top. Great addition by the Heat.
4. Jeremy Lin---a month ago today the guy played one game in the NBDL and lit it up, earning a trip back to New York. A bit turnover prone but the positives have more than outweighed that. He fits the system great.

Oh yeah, D-Wade is NOT a point guard.

I think it should be more of a 6th man list. Billups (healthy) is a great addition to any team but thats more because he is just too old to be a starter, younger he was always a top PG in the league.

Harden would have to make my list. Does everything very well off the bench, young too.

[Valuist]

I think it should be more of a 6th man list. Billups (healthy) is a great addition to any team but thats more because he is just too old to be a starter, younger he was always a top PG in the league.

Harden would have to make my list. Does everything very well off the bench, young too.

It wasn't intended to be a 6th man list. Just about guys who do things that don't always show in the box scores or stat sheets.

How about Spencer Hawes? Philly is 12-2 when he plays; 8-11 when he's been out. He is certainly under the radar.

[cj]

Here's another one: how about best supporting parts. These guys are not going to be top 5 superstars, but they clearly make their teams better:

1. Manu Ginobli---pretty much does everything well. And he's still somewhat under the radar.
2. Chauncy Billips---yeah he's out for the year, and maybe for good. Too bad; great team player.
3. Shane Battier---once they started adding Sabermetric like stats for things like defense, Battier scored at the top. Great addition by the Heat.
4. Jeremy Lin---a month ago today the guy played one game in the NBDL and lit it up, earning a trip back to New York. A bit turnover prone but the positives have more than outweighed that. He fits the system great.

Oh yeah, D-Wade is NOT a point guard.

If you are putting Shane Battier on this list, you have to have James Harden and Luol Deng about 20 spots ahead of him.

[cj]

It wasn't intended to be a 6th man list. Just about guys who do things that don't always show in the box scores or stat sheets.

How about Spencer Hawes? Philly is 12-2 when he plays; 8-11 when he's been out. He is certainly under the radar.

OK, I understand better now what you are saying. Nick Collison fits the bill here big time, as does Kendrick Perkins. Of course I'm biased towards the Thunder, but those guys don't stuff stat sheets but they are invaluable to the team.

Tony Allen is like that for Memphis too.

[Valuist]

OK, I understand better now what you are saying. Nick Collison fits the bill here big time, as does Kendrick Perkins. Of course I'm biased towards the Thunder, but those guys don't stuff stat sheets but they are invaluable to the team.

Tony Allen is like that for Memphis too.

Definitely true on Perkins. Boston clearly has regressed after they traded him.

But yeah, guys like him and Allen are what I was referring to.

[Robert Fischer]

Wade at PG? I can't read the rest after that. He can't play point guard. There is nobody better than Chris Paul right now. I couldn't argue much with anybody wanting Rose either, if we are going strictly by position.

C'mon thats a weak dismissal:cool:
what is this PTI on espn?

Wade will manhandle CP3 like a little kid at PG. CP3 already got "sonned" as they say by the lakers(espn beeping noise for points beepeep )

Wade will surprise you how much point he actually plays, even though it's easier on wade physically and the heat team-wise to have Chalmers and Cole bring the ball up.
Wade has NO trouble playing a traditional pg.

[Robert Fischer]

Here's another one: how about best supporting parts. These guys are not going to be top 5 superstars, but they clearly make their teams better:

1. Manu Ginobli---pretty much does everything well. And he's still somewhat under the radar.
2. Chauncy Billips---yeah he's out for the year, and maybe for good. Too bad; great team player.
3. Shane Battier---once they started adding Sabermetric like stats for things like defense, Battier scored at the top. Great addition by the Heat.
4. Jeremy Lin---a month ago today the guy played one game in the NBDL and lit it up, earning a trip back to New York. A bit turnover prone but the positives have more than outweighed that. He fits the system great.

Oh yeah, D-Wade is NOT a point guard.

supporting parts for an all star team?

Kevin Love

6th man?
not sure maybe
DWADE AT POINT:liar:

[cj]

C'mon thats a weak dismissal:cool:
what is this PTI on espn?

Wade will manhandle CP3 like a little kid at PG. CP3 already got "sonned" as they say by the lakers(espn beeping noise for points beepeep )

Wade will surprise you how much point he actually plays, even though it's easier on wade physically and the heat team-wise to have Chalmers and Cole bring the ball up.
Wade has NO trouble playing a traditional pg.

I started this as the five best players, regardless of position. I don't think Wade is one of them any longer, just like Kobe. Obviously both were at one point. If you want to go by position, that is fine, but then I'm certainly not going to agree that Wade would be on the best 5 team playing out of position if I don't think he is one of the best 5 playing his natural position.

Chris Paul is just a fabulous basketball player. To think Wade could play point guard better than him is, to be honest, laughable.

[Robert Fischer]

So if we went 5 on 5 with our top 5...

Am i correct ?

PG WADE VS CP3
2G KOBE VS DROSE
SF KD VS KD
PF LEBRON VS LEBRON
CF HOWARD VS DIRK

I guess we disagree at the guard position. Obviously forward is a push(same guys), and Dirk is a tough matchup for Howard.

Both good teams IMO.

[Valuist]

I didn't watch any of the skills competition last weekend. Was shocked to learn that Mr Rebound, Kevin Love, won the 3 point shootout over Durant.

The guy can play.

[cj]

I didn't watch any of the skills competition last weekend. Was shocked to learn that Mr Rebound, Kevin Love, won the 3 point shootout over Durant.

The guy can play.

Of course he can play. He can shoot 3s, and he can rebound. If that is what you need he is great. If you want an inside game or defense of any kind, look elsewhere.

[Valuist]

I was surprised to hear he was even in the event.

[cj]

I was surprised to hear he was even in the event.

He is a really good three point shooter.

If I had to have one guy make one in the game, it would be Ryan Anderson, but he didn't shoot that well in the contest.

[Robert Fischer]

Kevin Love could shoot 5-6 threes a game and not disrupt the offense.

He currently attempts 4/game.

[maddog42]

These are my top 5, right now, past glory doesn't count:
Lebron
KD
CP3
D-Rose
Dirk

How about you guys?
It makes me a Homer, but Westbrook is outplaying Dirk this year, especially the last 7 games. Wade is probably in the top 7.

[cj]

It makes me a Homer, but Westbrook is outplaying Dirk this year, especially the last 7 games. Wade is probably in the top 7.
Westbrook is getting there. Hard to overlook Dirk after last year, and he was playing really well after a bad start. But, he is hurt again, so I might have to move Wade to 5.


Anyone wondering about Howard still? The difference between him and a guy like Durant and even RW was in plain view tonight.

[maddog42]

OK, I understand better now what you are saying. Nick Collison fits the bill here big time, as does Kendrick Perkins. Of course I'm biased towards the Thunder, but those guys don't stuff stat sheets but they are invaluable to the team.

Tony Allen is like that for Memphis too.

When Kobe was in town, he had very favorable things to say about the
Thunder. He called Perkins the best one on one post defender in the league.

[maddog42]

I am a huge fan of Dirk, but every time I have seen him (this year)he is playing poorly. Last year in the playoffs was the best shooting exhibition I have ever seen from a 7 footer or maybe anyone. I have NBA league pass so I will try to watch him more.

[menifee]

Westbrook is getting there. Hard to overlook Dirk after last year, and he was playing really well after a bad start. But, he is hurt again, so I might have to move Wade to 5.


Anyone wondering about Howard still? The difference between him and a guy like Durant and even RW was in plain view tonight.


You don't give enough credit to Howard and you are not really considering defense in your list. He had 33 and 9 tonight. Plus he is clearly the best defender in the NBA. He's been named defensive player of the year three years in a row.

[cj]

You don't give enough credit to Howard and you are not really considering defense in your list. He had 33 and 9 tonight. Plus he is clearly the best defender in the NBA. He's been named defensive player of the year three years in a row.

I know all the things he can do. I also know what he can't do. When it really counted, and Perkins was on him in the 4th quarter, he did very little. He also, as usual, missed foul shots. They lost a game they led by at least 15 at home, and by 11 heading into the 4th quarter.

I am not saying the guy isn't a great player. I'm saying he isn't a top 5 player.

[Canarsie]

I'm going to catch a lot of Heat (no pun) for this but I can't consider a player top five until they make an NBA Final. I know everyone can name lots of players but that's my criteria.

One of my best friends used to go bananas when I used to say I'd rather have Jim Plunkett in a big game than Peyton Manning. This was before he won a Super Bowl. I never said he was better but on the grand stage he's my pick.

I would say the same thing against A-Roid before the Yanks won with him. Yankee fans would go nut when I would say Brosius would be my starter in the World Series.

I just feel great players in any sport should be able to lift their teammates to a higher level. In the finals talent usually wins out so I don't hold that against them.

[cj]

I'm going to catch a lot of Heat (no pun) for this but I can't consider a player top five until they make an NBA Final. I know everyone can name lots of players but that's my criteria.

One of my best friends used to go bananas when I used to say I'd rather have Jim Plunkett in a big game than Peyton Manning. This was before he won a Super Bowl. I never said he was better but on the grand stage he's my pick.

I would say the same thing against A-Roid before the Yanks won with him. Yankee fans would go nut when I would say Brosius would be my starter in the World Series.

I just feel great players in any sport should be able to lift their teammates to a higher level. In the finals talent usually wins out so I don't hold that against them.

I don't buy it in a team game, and your Plunkett example actually shows the fallacy of your argument.

[Robert Fischer]

Westbrook is getting there. Hard to overlook Dirk after last year, and he was playing really well after a bad start. But, he is hurt again, so I might have to move Wade to 5.


Anyone wondering about Howard still? The difference between him and a guy like Durant and even RW was in plain view tonight.

Just don't even think about playing him at point guard!! :D

[Canarsie]

I don't buy it in a team game, and your Plunkett example actually shows the fallacy of your argument.

It's not an argument its my position and I know its in the deep minority. For all his greatness Brett Favre has one ring the same as many others. Eli Manning has two in way less years. I'm not a fan of his but he is very impressive.

Its ok most of my friends think I'm nuts also. Before Jordan, Russel was considered by many to be the greatest play even though Wilt got all the press being an offensive machine and also being a great passer.

Would Les Miles rather have switched places with Alabama and lost the first game and won the national title? Nobody is going to remember that LSU was undefeated going into the game. Nobody talks about Miles now its all about Saban. Same deal with the Patriots Eli got all the kudos both times.

Most players say the ring means more then anything and they would trade all their MVP trophies for one. I'm not going to disagree with them one iota.

[Valuist]

I know its only one game but if you are gonna call yourself "Superman", your team better to able to score a bit more than 59 points in a home game against a Rose-less Bulls team.

48% from the line? Better work on those super powers.

[Marlin]

Man is Love putting up some monster numbers right now. Quotes from recent opposing coaches. (less than a week)
"We used to call him kind of a poor man's Larry Bird. I think you can take poor man's off that comparison." - Karl
"If he continues to do what he is doing for a good portion of his career, he is going to be one of the best ever." - Silas

[cj]

Man is Love putting up some monster numbers right now. Quotes from recent opposing coaches. (less than a week)
"We used to call him kind of a poor man's Larry Bird. I think you can take poor man's off that comparison." - Karl
"If he continues to do what he is doing for a good portion of his career, he is going to be one of the best ever." - Silas

Love is great on one end of the floor, mediocre on the other. He really needs to work on his defense.

[Bettowin]

Maybe not in the top 5 of all around players but surely in the top 5 in the most entertaining.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBnRXO6ndGI&feature=g-logo&context=G23f2600FOAAAAAAAAAA

[cj]

Maybe not in the top 5 of all around players but surely in the top 5 in the most entertaining.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBnRXO6ndGI&feature=g-logo&context=G23f2600FOAAAAAAAAAA

I guess if you prefer dunks. He wouldn't be in my top 5 for entertainment either.

[Bettowin]

I guess if you prefer dunks. He wouldn't be in my top 5 for entertainment either.

Dunks are fun and until the 2nd round of the playoffs there really isn't anything important to watch in the NBA beside the highlights.

[cj]

Dunks are fun and until the 2nd round of the playoffs there really isn't anything important to watch in the NBA beside the highlights.

The Spurs were the best in the West last year and lost in the 1st round. I think there is more parity than years past.

[Canarsie]

The Spurs were the best in the West last year and lost in the 1st round. I think there is more parity than years past.

There might be more parity but the lower tier teams will have to play hard till the end if they want a certain playoff seed. Teams that have seeding wrapped up including the NBA finals will be able to give their stars more rest and at least to me that's a decided advantage.

The Knicks are a good example. They play the Bulls or Heat and their bye bye. If they win the division or get a 6th or better seed and the chances of them reaching the second round greatly increase. But they will be a tired team exerting all that energy just to get there.

[maddog42]

Looking at the NBA season Stats I notice that Bynum is the number 1 center in the west statistically.He and Howard dominate most statistics in the league by centers. I know the guy has a screw loose (ala insisting to shoot 3's). This is a guy who sure would have benefited from a couple years of college. Lotsa talent.
Not very mature.

[Valuist]

Speaking of Derrick Rose, I have a feeling the Bulls haven't been completely upfront about the extent of his groin injury. The whispers are he has been seen leaning heavily against the railing just to get up and down stairs at the United Center. If its a tear, he's done for the season.

[mountainman]

1) Lebron
2) K. Love
3) K. Durant
4) D. Howard
5) M. Westbrook

[headhawg]

Kevin Love second? Seriously? And is that supposed to be Russell Westbrook? Leaving Derrick Rose off any Top 5 list is silly even though he is hurt right now.

[Valuist]

Kevin Love second? Seriously? And is that supposed to be Russell Westbrook? Leaving Derrick Rose off any Top 5 list is silly even though he is hurt right now.

The only guys on his list I'd put ahead of D-Rose are Lebron and Durant.

[headhawg]

Agreed. But with the game on the line I would take Rose over Lebron.

[mountainman]

Kevin Love second? Seriously? And is that supposed to be Russell Westbrook? Leaving Derrick Rose off any Top 5 list is silly even though he is hurt right now.

Yes,I meant Russell Westbrook-love his scoring ability and explosiveness. And K Love's run of double doubles (rebounding and points) is simply incredible. I think they're both vastly underrated. No question, though: D Rose is a fantastic player. There are so many to choose from.

[cj]

Yes,I meant Russell Westbrook-love his scoring ability and explosiveness. And K Love's run of double doubles (rebounding and points) is simply incredible. I think they're both vastly underrated. No question, though: D Rose is a fantastic player. There are so many to choose from.

There probably isn't a bigger Westbrook fan on the planet that isn't related to him, but he isn't a top 5 player...yet. And Kevin Love, no way. If he was, the T-Wolves would make the playoffs at least.

Howard is showing even more now why he isn't in my top 5. He is a head case, much like Andrew Bynum.

[mountainman]

There probably isn't a bigger Westbrook fan on the planet that isn't related to him, but he isn't a top 5 player...yet. And Kevin Love, no way. If he was, the T-Wolves would make the playoffs at least.

Howard is showing even more now why he isn't in my top 5. He is a head case, much like Andrew Bynum.

Lots of pundits agree with me on Love, he's commonly mentioned now as a top 3 player-so I don't think it's a huge reach to rate him second. And I think it's important to consider just how poor his supporting cast is-and how much higher his profile would be if he played in a big market.

As to Howard and Bynum, the former is a better rebounder, much better on defense, and, unlike Bynum, has become less mechanical on offense and developed a wider array of moves. In addition, Howard plays hard and confines his pouts to the sidelines, whereas Bynum's issues spill onto the court.

[cj]

In addition, Howard plays hard and confines his pouts to the sidelines, whereas Bynum's issues spill onto the court.

OH, I wouldn't agree with that at all. Howard has his moments too.

As for Love, he is a great offensive player, but on the other end, he is well below average. I would take his supporting cast over that of Dwight Howard, and his team still wins more than they lose. Let me ask you this...name another top 5 player that was part of a losing team when they played most of the season?

[mountainman]

OH, I wouldn't agree with that at all. Howard has his moments too.

As for Love, he is a great offensive player, but on the other end, he is well below average. I would take his supporting cast over that of Dwight Howard, and his team still wins more than they lose. Let me ask you this...name another top 5 player that was part of a losing team when they played most of the season?

Bynum is an infant, while Howard at least burns to win. And you can't classify a scorer/ rebounder like Love as a one dimensional player. Can you name any player with similar rebounding stats who possesses his 3-point range? Or any player with his singular skillset likewise condemned to toil in such a small market-AND with such lackluster team-mates? I'm not sure there IS a precedent for Love's predicament-he's that unique. Kevin Garnett comes to mind, but at least he had Stephon Marbury during his stint with the t-wolves, and in all fairness, never equaled Love's string of double-doubles, or had the same scoring knack.

[cj]

I don't find Love's teammates nearly as bad as you do. I like Love, just not as high as you have him. I'd honestly take LeMarcus Aldridge over him at PF.

Was having Marbury supposed to be a plus?

[mountainman]

Was having Marbury supposed to be a plus?

Er ah...I'm sure it seemed so-at the time. lol.

[Robert Goren]

Love is tough player to rate. I do think it is pretty hard to rate him as a great player at this time. Remember James took Cleveland to finals with a cast of teammates that were not a whole better than what Love has now.

[Canarsie]

Here I go expect to get hammered again. A top 5 player to me can get his team to the NBA finals at least once. Malone and Barkley didn't get the ring but they made it there both losing to the Bulls. I love Barkley even today he states "its something I will have to live with the rest of my life". No excuses just plain facts.

The jury is still out on my top five because there are many just hitting their prime now. But if I had a top five I respect it would be not necessarily in order.

Kobe
LBJ
Duncan
Rose
Durant

Even the hated LBJ took a lousy Cavaliers team to the finals that was quite an achievement.



One player I will always exclude from my list is Dwight Howard. To egg your home town crowd to cheer for the Knicks is a capitol crime imo. Carmello Anthony also he smiles too much during a game when his team is losing. Look at the great players they have a look of "hatred" when the game is being played. If either of them were in the top five give me number six or seven who hate to lose.

[Robert Fischer]

Westbrook
Kobe
Lebron
Durant
Howard

[classhandicapper]

I'm mostly an advanced stats guy, but I watch a million games because I'm an active gambler.

IMO

1. Points Per Game tends to be overrated relative to scoring efficiency.

2. Offense tends to be overrated relative to defense.

3. The ability to score, create shots, and make athletic plays tends to be wildly overrated relative to contributions that change the number of possessions a team will have.

Things like rebounding, TOs, Steals, drawing offensive fouls, keeping a ball alive when you can't secure the rebound, blocking shots to yourself or a teammate instead of up into the stands etc... add a ton of value by adding possessions (or subtracting them from the opponent). Yet some of these things are not even tracked in the standard stats sheets. It takes a great offensive player (vs. average offensive player) several possessions to make up the value of a single extra possession because the scoring efficiencies between players are simply not that far apart.

4. The ability to hit 3 pointers at an above average rate is underrated because it's hard to measure the positive value the extra spacing generated has for the rest of the offense.

I could easily jumble these all around (except James being #1) because it's hard to compare players at different positions

1. James
2. Paul
3. Durant
4. Wade
5. Howard

IMO, Love will be on that list if he improves his defense because he is wildly productive on multiple fronts.

I also want to put in an honorable mention for Tyson Chandler. IMO he's the prototypical underrated player because he's not a high volume scorer.

Chandler occasionally dominates games defensively. He's so great on that end you can put him with 4 weak defenders and still have an above average defense. He's ridiculously quick to help and recover, direct traffic etc... He turned one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA into one of the best just with his presence (OK Shumpert has helped also).

He gives the Knicks a multitude of extra possessions every game that aren't even in the box score. Even though he doesn't score a lot, he's wildly efficient around the basket on the possessions he does use. IMO, clear cut DPOY and wildly underrated.

[maddog42]

Tyson Chandler? Great player. I think Perkins is almost as good defensively. Dallas wishes they had Chandler back and Boston wishes they had Perkins back.
With Odom being let go, Dallas is desperate for another big guy.

[maddog42]

CP3 really put on a show tonight against OKC. He singlehandedly took over that game.

[Canarsie]

Tyson Chandler? Great player. I think Perkins is almost as good defensively. Dallas wishes they had Chandler back and Boston wishes they had Perkins back.
With Odom being let go, Dallas is desperate for another big guy.

Chandler would get my vote as defensive player of the year. Maybe because I see him more often but the guy is a monster out there. The other players feed off his intensity which is amazing on a dysfunctional Knicks team. Plus he was one of less then a handful who back stabbed Diantoni. That means to me his is a team player.

When it comes to defense other players will feed off the person making stops. Well let me rephrase that other SMART players.

I don't think OKC feeds off Perkins but they are a well knit unit that doesn't need that type of encouragement most times.

[cj]

A lot of people here think Ibaka is a great defender, but in truth, he is below average man on man. He is a great help defender that blocks a lot of shots and keeps them in play.

What is sad for me is OKC had Chandler for nothing, then backed out due to a physical issue. He is tremendous. He can play on ball and help defense. He was actually the main reason Dallas beat OKC in the WCF last year.

Chandler would get my vote as defensive player of the year. Maybe because I see him more often but the guy is a monster out there. The other players feed off his intensity which is amazing on a dysfunctional Knicks team. Plus he was one of less then a handful who back stabbed Diantoni. That means to me his is a team player.

When it comes to defense other players will feed off the person making stops. Well let me rephrase that other SMART players.

I don't think OKC feeds off Perkins but they are a well knit unit that doesn't need that type of encouragement most times.

[maddog42]

A lot of people here think Ibaka is a great defender, but in truth, he is below average man on man. He is a great help defender that blocks a lot of shots and keeps them in play.

What is sad for me is OKC had Chandler for nothing, then backed out due to a physical issue. He is tremendous. He can play on ball and help defense. He was actually the main reason Dallas beat OKC in the WCF last year.

I agree mostly about Ibaka. I wouldn't put him as below average, but he lets a lot of guys get by him. There is a lot more to defense than blocking shots and keeping people from the rim and out of the lane are a couple of them.

The same Doctor who failed Chandler on the physical was the same Doctor who operated on his toe 2 years earlier. What a stupendous goof.
I didn't follow Chandler at Chicago but watched him a lot with the Hornets. It was always hard for me to believe that you couldn't build a very good team around Paul and Chandler. I guess they were good for a year or two. They should have beat San Antonio a few years ago.

[cj]

Russell's dunk, just ridiculous for a PG.

TZ87Y7qGhpQ

[headhawg]

Good, but the DRose one's are sick!

yqFwcYX-an4

[cj]

They are both incredible athletes, though one never misses a game. I don't see anything in that top 5 Westbrook hasn't done before.

Surely you remember this one?

VEcqGZ9hNx4

This one was over two little known guys, LeBron and Dwight Howard:

P5pwLAzsOWA

[Valuist]

Anyone who believes Wade is the straw that stirs the drink for the Heat is kidding themselves.

[Valuist]

Thought we would re-visit this thread.

Does anybody still think Dwight Howard is one of the five top players in the NBA?

[fiveouttasix]

as a Nets fan I am glad we have Brook Lopez...they were trying for a year + to trade for Howard

[Stillriledup]

Lebron
KD
CP3
D Rose (healthy of course)
(Kobe-melo)

[Robert Fischer]

Durant and Lebron far and away the best.

Chris Paul may be the distant 3rd.

After that give me supporting cast guys.

I don't want *Kobe or Melo on my team.

Howard? He's always been limited, but I haven't seen enough this year to say if it's injuries or Kobe that have limited his usual play level. He doesn't make a top 5 list without a positional advantage @ Center.

*Kobe could make my top 4 players list if he raises the level of play of Howard and Gasol in the 2nd half of this season.

[Stillriledup]

Durant and Lebron far and away the best.

Chris Paul may be the distant 3rd.

After that give me supporting cast guys.

I don't want *Kobe or Melo on my team.

Howard? He's always been limited, but I haven't seen enough this year to say if it's injuries or Kobe that have limited his usual play level. He doesn't make a top 5 list without a positional advantage @ Center.

*Kobe could make my top 4 players list if he raises the level of play of Howard and Gasol in the 2nd half of this season.

I agree, KD, CP3 and Lebron are the 3 best players out there today.

[cj]

These are my top 5, right now, past glory doesn't count:
Lebron
KD
CP3
D-Rose
Dirk

How about you guys?

I never thought Howard was top 10, let alone top 5.

I would now put it like this:

1 ) Lebron
1a) KD
3 ) CP3
4 ) Melo (no, not Fab Melo)
5 ) Westbrook

[Robert Fischer]

Kobe has been playing like Magic Johnson the last couple games. :eek:

[Stillriledup]

Kobe Bryant.

[mountainman]

Commentators who speculate on what it might take to get top echelon stars like Lebron to do the dunk contest just don't get it. Right now there is mystique about how high the guy can jump. Fans eager to mythologize nba superstars assume literally that the sky is the limit. So to compete in the dunk and, inevitably, display human limitations makes the dunk contest a no-win scenario for players of that ilk. Lebron's mystique is worth much more than any prize the contest might muster.

[PhantomOnTour]

1) Lebron James



(massive chasm)





2 thru 5....take your pick of Durant, CP3, Kyrie Irving (yes - Kyrie Irving), Carmelo, etc etc....

[cj]

1) Lebron James



(massive chasm)





2 thru 5....take your pick of Durant, CP3, Kyrie Irving (yes - Kyrie Irving), Carmelo, etc etc....

Lebron has definitely a stranglehold on the top spot, but Durant is just as clear a #2. I'd probably remove CP3 from my top 5 currently and put Parker in.

[cj]

Kobe Bryant.

Yes, scoring lots of points while nipping the Pelicans and the Raptors is highly impressive...laughing my ass off.

[PhantomOnTour]

Kobe is the biggest shot-misser in the history of the NBA

[elysiantraveller]

Lebron has definitely a stranglehold on the top spot, but Durant is just as clear a #2. I'd probably remove CP3 from my top 5 currently and put Parker in.

I would agree with the Durant a free and clear #2 but you would take CP3 out of the top 5? If I did I would put Kyrie Irving in his place, he is certainly the most talented PG in the game right now. Don't you think Parker benefits from the abundance of shooters on that team?

[cj]

I would agree with the Durant a free and clear #2 but you would take CP3 out of the top 5? If I did I would put Kyrie Irving in his place, he is certainly the most talented PG in the game right now. Don't you think Parker benefits from the abundance of shooters on that team?

Before Parker was hurt, he was playing at an unbelievable level. Yes, he has shooters, but he is incredibly hard to stop when he wants to drive and score. His shot has improved a ton as well.

There is no way I can put Paul ahead of Westbrook any longer. Every time they play, Westbrook dominates him. They are obviously different types of players. Paul assists a little bit more, Russ scores a lot more. The big difference in the two is on defense. Westbrook is a really good defender, Paul not so much.

Irving will probably be there some day soon. He shows flashes, but it is pretty inconsistent still.

[Robert Fischer]

Stephen Curry is an interesting possibility as a top 10 player.

He averages 22 and 7 as a point guard, and he takes 7 threes a game and hits 45% from behind the arc.

That has to put a ton of pressure on the defense.

[cj]

Stephen Curry is an interesting possibility as a top 10 player.

He averages 22 and 7 as a point guard, and he takes 7 threes a game and hits 45% from behind the arc.

That has to put a ton of pressure on the defense.

He is a tremendous shooter, not sure I'd go beyond that just yet. He probably isn't even a top 5 PG yet, let alone top 10 overall.

[Robert Fischer]

He is a tremendous shooter, not sure I'd go beyond that just yet. He probably isn't even a top 5 PG yet, let alone top 10 overall.

Pretty much agree.

I'd have to see him play on a decent team with other top weapons.

It would either be impossible to defend, or he would simply score less.

[JustRalph]

Kobe out again with broken bone in Knee...........

these wheels aren't long for this world. And he just cashed a 21 million dollar check?

[Valuist]

Who are the most underrated players in the league?

I'd put Paul George in that mix. Damian Lillard, DeMar DeRoza and Aaron Affalo also.

[cj]

I never thought Howard was top 10, let alone top 5.

I would now put it like this:

1 ) Lebron
1a) KD
3 ) CP3
4 ) Melo (no, not Fab Melo)
5 ) Westbrook

Clearly, Melo has to go.

1 ) Lebron
2 ) KD
3 ) Westbrook
4 ) CP3
5 ) George

[ronsmac]

1. Lebron when he plays small forward. 2. Lebron when he plays power forward. 3. lebron when he plays point forward. 4. when Lebron plays point guard. 5. durant

[Stillriledup]

Clearly, Melo has to go.

1 ) Lebron
2 ) KD
3 ) Westbrook
4 ) CP3
5 ) George

That's ballsy putting KW ahead of CP3.

[Ocala Mike]

Who are the most underrated players in the league?

I'd put Paul George in that mix.

Big game last night!

[ManU918]

At this point if I were to make a top 5... Kevin Love is going to be on it. Hes by far and away the best PF in the NBA.

[lansdale]

At this point if I were to make a top 5... Kevin Love is going to be on it. Hes by far and away the best PF in the NBA.

If try to be objective, using WS/48, the best measure of player value per Nate Silver, the top 5 are: C. Paul, K. Durant, L. James, K. Love, and P. George.

For purists, since the top three are in a virtual deadlock at .30 (an order of magnitude above all other players), the next two would be Anthony Davis of NO and Stephen Curry of GSW.

[cj]

At this point if I were to make a top 5... Kevin Love is going to be on it. Hes by far and away the best PF in the NBA.

I just can't buy that seeing that they just keep losing. I know he is only guy, but still. He plays no defense and that matters.

And far and away better than Lamarcus Aldridge? No way.

[ManU918]

I just can't buy that seeing that they just keep losing. I know he is only guy, but still. He plays no defense and that matters.

And far and away better than Lamarcus Aldridge? No way.

You seem like someone who follows the NBA... But take a look at the Timberwolves roster.... For christ sake a guy they spent a 6th overall pick on 4 years ago (Flynn) is not even in the league anymore. Love has no one and a player like Rubio who I thought 5 years ago would be a star right now seems to have taken a step back (which is really shocking to me). What do you want Love to do? Hes a one man show and he is still putting up ridiculous numbers. It takes a team to win in the NBA and unfortunately he doesn't have that... Teams are already getting their finances in place to offer this guy the max in 2 years when he is an unrestricted FA.. Would love to see him land in Philly.

Did you see the game three days ago between Love and Aldridge? Love completely owned Aldridge... I know that is only one game but still... I know Love isn't good on defense but I think his ability to stretch the floor makes up for that. And if you think Love plays no defense... Then Aldridge would be considered one to play little to no defense.

[cj]

You seem like someone who follows the NBA... But take a look at the Timberwolves roster.... For christ sake a guy they spent a 6th overall pick on 4 years ago (Flynn) is not even in the league anymore. Love has no one and a player like Rubio who I thought 5 years ago would be a star right now seems to have taken a step back (which is really shocking to me). What do you want Love to do? Hes a one man show and he is still putting up ridiculous numbers. It takes a team to win in the NBA and unfortunately he doesn't have that... Teams are already getting their finances in place to offer this guy the max in 2 years when he is an unrestricted FA.. Would love to see him land in Philly.

Did you see the game three days ago between Love and Aldridge? Love completely owned Aldridge... I know that is only one game but still... I know Love isn't good on defense but I think his ability to stretch the floor makes up for that. And if you think Love plays no defense... Then Aldridge would be considered one to play little to no defense.

I didn't see the game. I've watched them both play many times. I'm not knocking Love much, he is a very good player, I just don't think he is top 5. Hard to believe a top 5 player could be on a team that never wins. He is also a power forward that shoots a ton of threes, not exactly what most teams look for in a 4.

I've always had one rule that has served me well when following the NBA. Beware the best player on a bad team. They usually look better than they are and tend to disappoint when going to a winning team.

[Stillriledup]

At this point if I were to make a top 5... Kevin Love is going to be on it. Hes by far and away the best PF in the NBA.

Love not in the same class as Blake. I agree with some of CJs points, Love isnt a winner, he's a garbage time rebound guy on a losing team, a team with no heart, these guys can look fancy and pile up stats but when they need to win, this love guy shrinks.

[ManU918]

Love not in the same class as Blake. I agree with some of CJs points, Love isnt a winner, he's a garbage time rebound guy on a losing team, a team with no heart, these guys can look fancy and pile up stats but when they need to win, this love guy shrinks.

Your post is a prime example of why I avg about one post a day on this forum... I admit I am wrong about a lot of things but I respect the opinion of a lot of posters here and understand their side of a disagreement we might have. But to say Kevin Love is not in the same class as Blake Griffin is just flat out stupid and ignorant. If your going to say something like that you should have some type of substance to back it up.

[Relwob Owner]

Your post is a prime example of why I avg about one post a day on this forum... I admit I am wrong about a lot of things but I respect the opinion of a lot of posters here and understand their side of a disagreement we might have. But to say Kevin Love is not in the same class as Blake Griffin is just flat out stupid and ignorant. If your going to say something like that you should have some type of substance to back it up.


I just could not agree more.....if you are waiting for something with substance from SRU, it could be a while

[cj]

Blake Griffin has gotten better, but he still isn't in the league of some other power forwards. His reputation is mostly built on a rigged dunk contest.

[cj]

Watched Griffin v Aldridge last night. There is no question in my mind I would take Aldridge 10 times out of 10 if I had a choice. Blake simply cannot create on his own. Aldridge is just a beast on the box. Griffin looks better than he is because of Chris Paul, and really he is undersized.

[Relwob Owner]

Watched Griffin v Aldridge last night. There is no question in my mind I would take Aldridge 10 times out of 10 if I had a choice. Blake simply cannot create on his own. Aldridge is just a beast on the box. Griffin looks better than he is because of Chris Paul, and really he is undersized.


I watched the game as well and totally agree. Aldridge seems like the much more complete player and seems to make those around him better as well. Man, did Paul play well.

[cj]

I watched the game as well and totally agree. Aldridge seems like the much more complete player and seems to make those around him better as well. Man, did Paul play well.

Paul really did, though he ran out of gas late. One thing I think every time I watch the Clippers play is that Paul needs to cut back on his assists and score more. It would be better for the team.

[Valuist]

Paul really did, though he ran out of gas late. One thing I think every time I watch the Clippers play is that Paul needs to cut back on his assists and score more. It would be better for the team.

I'm sure he could, but I don't think it would be the best thing, long term, for him or the team. Point guards who shoulder heavy scoring burden tend to get beat up along the way.

[cj]

I'm sure he could, but I don't think it would be the best thing, long term, for him or the team. Point guards who shoulder heavy scoring burden tend to get beat up along the way.

I see them often, and they really struggle to score in the half court offense. Teams realize that Paul is the only guy that can create his own shot. Generally, Paul is reluctant to shoot for the first 3 quarters for whatever reason, and it hurts the team. Eventually teams would adjust and he could go back to shooting less.

[Stillriledup]

I see them often, and they really struggle to score in the half court offense. Teams realize that Paul is the only guy that can create his own shot. Generally, Paul is reluctant to shoot for the first 3 quarters for whatever reason, and it hurts the team. Eventually teams would adjust and he could go back to shooting less.

J Crossover can also create with the best of them.

I think CP3 will shoot when he can create something to his advantage, he's not going to pull a Kobe (or a Nick Young) and just shoot shots that are bad choices. Also, maybe its more tiring to "Create" than it is to put your teammates in a position to succeed, i won't question Chris Paul and his decision as to when to shoot and when to pass, also hurts that Redick is out for them, Redick frees up some more space because of his outside range.

[Stillriledup]

I watched the game as well and totally agree. Aldridge seems like the much more complete player and seems to make those around him better as well. Man, did Paul play well.

Aldridge was a monster no doubt, he was unstoppable, that was a fun game, not sure i agreed with all the officials calls, but the Clippers played a great game off an emotional try the previous night, Portland a very tough place to play.

[cj]

J Crossover can also create with the best of them.

I think CP3 will shoot when he can create something to his advantage, he's not going to pull a Kobe (or a Nick Young) and just shoot shots that are bad choices. Also, maybe its more tiring to "Create" than it is to put your teammates in a position to succeed, i won't question Chris Paul and his decision as to when to shoot and when to pass, also hurts that Redick is out for them, Redick frees up some more space because of his outside range.

Yeah, Crawford can, you are right.

I think Paul is fair game. He racks up assists, but his playoff record is iffy at best, as is his record against the good teams. I think he needs to score more, and I know he can do it. Being selfish isn't always bad in basketball.

[Stillriledup]

Yeah, Crawford can, you are right.

I think Paul is fair game. He racks up assists, but his playoff record is iffy at best, as is his record against the good teams. I think he needs to score more, and I know he can do it. Being selfish isn't always bad in basketball.

No doubt. The goal is to get the best percentage shot you can and if CP3 has to shoot 50 times in a row, its the right decision if he's in a prime scoring position. LAC also has a bunch of "point guards" so they can give Chris a rest if all that scoring tires him out! :D

[lansdale]

I didn't see the game. I've watched them both play many times. I'm not knocking Love much, he is a very good player, I just don't think he is top 5. Hard to believe a top 5 player could be on a team that never wins. He is also a power forward that shoots a ton of threes, not exactly what most teams look for in a 4.

I've always had one rule that has served me well when following the NBA. Beware the best player on a bad team. They usually look better than they are and tend to disappoint when going to a winning team.

Hi cj,

Interesting post, and when I first read it, I saw your point - one with which I usually agree. But I also hadn't seen Love much, and when I did, he had looked unspectacular. So I took a more careful look and changed my mind.

Right now, Love is leading the NBA in rebounding - 13.9 pg, and is third in scoring - 25.9 - a hair in front of Lebron James, and behind Melo. As we've seen, he's 4th in the league in WS 48, the best available measure of overall player ability we have.

In a recent win vs. Portland (and Aldridge) 120-109, he had 29 pts, 15 rb, 9 asst to Alridge's 15 pts, 14 rb, 3 asst. The other night in a close (120-116) loss to LAC in LA, he had 45 pts, 19 rb. In the month of December, he averaged 30 pts., 14 rpg. I think this refutes the argument that he can't play against good teams.

During the 2011-2012 season, he had a 30/30 game. No one in the NBA had had 30 rpg since Charles Barkley in 1996, and no one had had a 30/30 game since Moses Malone in 1982.

During the 2010-2011 season, he had a streak of 53 consecutive double-doubles (pts, rbs), the longest such streak since the NBA/ABA merger in 1976. (Record for the longest is held by Chamberlain - 227 from 1964-1967.)

You may object to a 3 pt. shooting PF, but it doesn't seem to have hurt the career of Dirk Nowitzki much. In fact Nowitzki is probably the player KL's numbers and style most resembles - a PF who can shoot 3s and rebound, but doesn't have much or any shot-blocking. And Love is a much better rebounder at ca. 14 ppg, than the Mav star, who averaged ca. 9.5.. He's also doubled his asst. average this year to 4.5 pg. - not too shabby for a big man.

I think the hoary canard that good players on bad teams being overrated should be laid to rest - Kevin Garnett, unarguably a great player, was the best player on bad and mediocre teams in Minneapolis for years until McHale decided to give both him and the Celts a break. The same is true of Lebron with Cleveland.

This doesn't necessarily mean that Love is on a par with those players. But if he's capable of sustaining his current level of performance - and that 53-games streak suggests that he is - he may be the best big man in the NBA, and possibly one of the best in the game.

Cheers,

lansdale

[Relwob Owner]

Paul really did, though he ran out of gas late. One thing I think every time I watch the Clippers play is that Paul needs to cut back on his assists and score more. It would be better for the team.

I would tend to agree. I was exhausted and cant remember exactly when but I think it was when Portland went up by 10 and Paul seemed to take that score first attitude and dropped about 10 in a row

[jballscalls]

]

Did you see the game three days ago between Love and Aldridge? Love completely owned Aldridge... I know that is only one game but still... I know Love isn't good on defense but I think his ability to stretch the floor makes up for that. And if you think Love plays no defense... Then Aldridge would be considered one to play little to no defense.

I'm totally biased because I watch the Blazers every game, but I think LA is better than Love. The entire Blazers team was flat in Minnesota that night. It was a fourth game in 5 days on the road trip, a trip where they had won the first three games, two in dramatic last second style. They looked exhausted and Minnesota ran them out of the gym.

But LA has just been so good. For years people here beat him up for not going inside and being tough enough, but now it seems he's going inside and outside so much better. And I think having an actual center (Robin Lopez having a career year) has really helped LA. I think we're seeing the best of Lamarcus because he finally has some pieces that compliment him well. I'd be really curious to see Kevin Love with a good team around him and see how much it would raise his game. He's from Portland so still root for him :)

[Stillriledup]

KD currently best player. He's the best guy out there.

[Stillriledup]

Anyone care to re-rank your top 5.....or, are you leaving it "as is"?

[cj]

These are my top 5, right now, past glory doesn't count:
Lebron
KD
CP3
D-Rose
Dirk

How about you guys?

1) Lebron
1a) KD
3) Paul
4) George
5) Westbrook

[Stillriledup]

1) Lebron
1a) KD
3) Paul
4) George
5) Westbrook

Why take out D Rose and not Westbrook?

[Robert Fischer]

Durant - F
LeBron - F
Chris Paul - PG
Anthony Davis - PF/C
James Harden - SG

[Stillriledup]

Durant - F
LeBron - F
Chris Paul - PG
Anthony Davis - PF/C
James Harden - SG


http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/

[cj]

Why take out D Rose and not Westbrook?

LOL, one guy has basically missed two years straight. The injuries are not similar and Westbrook will be back very soon. Should I take out Paul too? He missed almost as much time as Westbrook.

[Valuist]

Durant - F
LeBron - F
Chris Paul - PG
Anthony Davis - PF/C
James Harden - SG

Harden is a cardboard cutout on the defensive end. Have to play both ends of the floor.

[cj]

Harden is a cardboard cutout on the defensive end. Have to play both ends of the floor.

Totally agree, even Dwight Howard can't cover for him most of the time.

[Robert Fischer]

Is there an elite shooting guard in the NBA?

Or do I have to pick up another forward ?

[cj]

Is there an elite shooting guard in the NBA?

Or do I have to pick up another forward ?

Nobody said by position, but if that was where you are going, I can see Harden. With Wade getting old and Kobe old and injured, Harden is the best for sure.

[Valuist]

My top 5:

Lebron
Durant
Chris Paul
Paul George
Kevin Love

[Valuist]

Is there an elite shooting guard in the NBA?

Or do I have to pick up another forward ?

How about Steph Curry?

[cj]

How about Steph Curry?

He plays point.

[Valuist]

He plays point.

Sort of. He's really a hybrid point/shooting guard.

[lansdale]

These are the top 15 WS 48 players at the moment. Looks like Durant is virtually playing in his own league at this point, and interesting to see a seemingly ageless Nowitzki edge his way on to this list among a much younger group.

I'd go with the same top 5 as Valuist, but am tempted to include Anthony Davis in this group, even though he's still young (21, I think). In the limited times I've seen him, I've been impressed by his hoops IQ, toughness, and ability to score in the paint. In addition, he's leading the league in shot-blocking. Have to wait until he plays in the post-season to know more.

Reading this thread reminds how much positions and roles have blurred in the NBA over the decades - Harden is supposed to be a 2 but he usually ends up with as many if not more assists than Lin or Beverly, and Curry is more like a pure shooter who can also pass. Probably makes more sense to focus on the player rather than their nominal positions.


1.Kevin Durant (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duranke01.html)-OKC.3202.Chris Paul (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paulch01.html)-LAC.2763.Kevin Love (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html)-MIN.2664.LeBron James (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html)-MIA.2635.Stephen Curry (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/curryst01.html)-GSW.2246.Blake Griffin (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/griffbl01.html)-LAC.2157.Anthony Davis (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/davisan02.html)-NOP.2118.Dirk Nowitzki (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nowitdi01.html)-DAL.2109.Goran Dragic (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dragigo01.html)-PHO.20610.Kyle Lowry (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lowryky01.html)-TOR.20611.Paul George (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/georgpa01.html)-IND.20012.George Hill (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hillge01.html)-IND.18613.Andre Drummond (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/drumman01.html)-DET.18614.James Harden (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01.html)-HOU.18615.DeAndre Jordan (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordade01.html)-LAC.183

[cj's dad]

If Wilt is not on your list then you have zero credibility

[Stillriledup]

If Wilt is not on your list then you have zero credibility

this is top 5 current players, heres a discussion here wilt is mentioned.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=110902

[Robert Fischer]

These are the top 15 WS 48 players at the moment...
Looking at Lansdale's WS numbers and I'll trade out Harden for Kevin Love:
Durant - F
LeBron - F
Chris Paul - PG
Kevin Love - PF
Anthony Davis - PF/C

[Stillriledup]

Looking at Lansdale's WS numbers and I'll trade out Harden for Kevin Love:
Durant - F
LeBron - F
Chris Paul - PG
Kevin Love - PF
Anthony Davis - PF/C

Davis ahead of Griffin?

[cj]

Davis ahead of Griffin?

Could go either way on that one. Griffin isn't much on D.

[RXB]

Harden is a cardboard cutout on the defensive end. Have to play both ends of the floor.

The cardboard cutouts phoned me; they said how dare you put them down at Harden's level defensively. If you see a bunch of guys of unusually thin physical depth with frozen expressions approaching you, run.

[Stillriledup]

Could go either way on that one. Griffin isn't much on D.

He's improving. Also better at FTs.

LAC is involved in what is essentially a playoff atmosphere every night...i don't know, maybe rival players hate the CP3 and Blake tv commercials and "hype" so they play extra hard.....blake double and triple teamed on every play, teams play as hard as you can play when LAC is in town (or when they visit), especially golden state, those guys have a chip on their shoulder when they play the Clips. Also, Blake is essentially fouled on at least half his baskets, and rarely gets an "and 1" i would say at least 5 times a night after scoring he's asking the ref "where's the and 1" i have to imagine that its a completely different atmosphere for Davis, playing on a losing team, teams don't "Get up" to play him, so he's got an advantage there statistically.

[cj]

He's improving. Also better at FTs.

LAC is involved in what is essentially a playoff atmosphere every night...i don't know, maybe rival players hate the CP3 and Blake tv commercials and "hype" so they play extra hard.....blake double and triple teamed on every play, teams play as hard as you can play when LAC is in town (or when they visit), especially golden state, those guys have a chip on their shoulder when they play the Clips. Also, Blake is essentially fouled on at least half his baskets, and rarely gets an "and 1" i would say at least 5 times a night after scoring he's asking the ref "where's the and 1" i have to imagine that its a completely different atmosphere for Davis, playing on a losing team, teams don't "Get up" to play him, so he's got an advantage there statistically.

Yeah, because nobody plays extra hard against the Thunder, or the Heat, or the Pacers. ::rollseyes::

Griffin doesn't get calls because he is a flop machine. Who knows when he is really fouled any more?

[Stillriledup]

Yeah, because nobody plays extra hard against the Thunder, or the Heat, or the Pacers. ::rollseyes::

Griffin doesn't get calls because he is a flop machine. Who knows when he is really fouled any more?

That's not my point. I'm just comparing Davis vs Griffin....teams player harder against Griffin.

As far as him not getting any calls due to flopping, why would you think he's a flopper, where did that come from?

[cj]

That's not my point. I'm just comparing Davis vs Griffin....teams player harder against Griffin.

As far as him not getting any calls due to flopping, why would you think he's a flopper, where did that come from?

I don't really buy the "play harder against" stuff. I see way too many games in person to believe that.

As for why does he flop? Been doing it since high school. I think Paul has taught him a few tricks since he entered the NBA.

[Robert Fischer]

Could go either way on that one. Griffin isn't much on D.

Pretty much this.

Neither player will make or break a top 5 list. I went with the team thing, so the interior defense from Davis got the nod.

[lansdale]

This seems to be a popular subject of debate by NBA fans I've heard personally and on the BBs. I would say that roughly 80% favor Davis, I think rightly. But first, a take on Griffin.

Griffin is a very good PF but, after a few years in which there wasn't much competition in the league at this position, this year a number of other PFs have made quantum leaps in their game, while he has stayed at the same level. While it was clear before that Love was better, I think most teams now might also opt for Aldridge or Davis given the choice, if they were a good fit.

Griffin appears to have plateaued at his current level, and seems to me to be a career high-level all-star rather than a potential HOF player. His powerful but one-dimensional style reminds me most of someone like Amare Stoudemire, another PF with great athleticism, who appears to have owed much of his success to a fortunate relationship with one of the great point guards in NBA history, much like Griffin's with CP3. LAC as a team is also reminiscent of the high-scoring No-D Phoenix teams of the early '00s, and will never reach Finals level for the same reasons.

As far as SRU's claim that every game is like the post-season for the Clips, putting Griffin under that much more pressure than others (Davis?), everyone knows that Griffin has collapsed like a house of cards in his two years of actual playoff experience. Last year he averaged 13 pts. and 6 boards a game.

Re Davis, at the age of 20 (doesn't turn 21 until March), he's already having a second year much like the first season of the 21-year-old Tim Duncan, with slightly less rebounding: 21 pts., 10 rbs, 3 blks, 1.4 stls per game. No way to predict HOF for someone this young, but hard to believe he won't get there with some growth.

BTW, Davis has been chosen to replace the injured Kobe in today's All-Star game. Don't know if I can catch it, but anyone who wants to check out his game might be interested.

Cheers,

lansdale

[Stillriledup]

This seems to be a popular subject of debate by NBA fans I've heard personally and on the BBs. I would say that roughly 80% favor Davis, I think rightly. But first, a take on Griffin.

Griffin is a very good PF but, after a few years in which there wasn't much competition in the league at this position, this year a number of other PFs have made quantum leaps in their game, while he has stayed at the same level. While it was clear before that Love was better, I think most teams now might also opt for Aldridge or Davis given the choice, if they were a good fit.

Griffin appears to have plateaued at his current level, and seems to me to be a career high-level all-star rather than a potential HOF player. His powerful but one-dimensional style reminds me most of someone like Amare Stoudemire, another PF with great athleticism, who appears to have owed much of his success to a fortunate relationship with one of the great point guards in NBA history, much like Griffin's with CP3. LAC as a team is also reminiscent of the high-scoring No-D Phoenix teams of the early '00s, and will never reach Finals level for the same reasons.

As far as SRU's claim that every game is like the post-season for the Clips, putting Griffin under that much more pressure than others (Davis?), everyone knows that Griffin has collapsed like a house of cards in his two years of actual playoff experience. Last year he averaged 13 pts. and 6 boards a game.

Re Davis, at the age of 20 (doesn't turn 21 until March), he's already having a second year much like the first season of the 21-year-old Tim Duncan, with slightly less rebounding: 21 pts., 10 rbs, 3 blks, 1.4 stls per game. No way to predict HOF for someone this young, but hard to believe he won't get there with some growth.

BTW, Davis has been chosen to replace the injured Kobe in today's All-Star game. Don't know if I can catch it, but anyone who wants to check out his game might be interested.

Cheers,

lansdale

I have to respectfully disagree that Griffin hasn't improved his games in leaps and bounds. I watch every second of every clipper games (even the games where they win by 45, i watch till the end! :D ) and he's a different player under Doc Rivers.

The entire Clippers team, including Deandre Jordan who is also much improved and actually plays in the 4th quarter now, is much improved. They had a couple of years of Vinny Delnegro who is not in the same class as Rivers, Doc actually coaches these guys, you can see it in their play, it looks much different than what you saw under Vinny.

Clippers have entire new coaching staff and many new players, so a few bumps in the road have cost them some games learning a new style of play, Griffin is much improved, you just have to watch the games (and have seen all his career games) to know this.

As far as the Clippers playing no defense like the Antoni (no D in D'Antoni) teams in Phx, i'm not sure how they compare because i don't know what those Suns teams looked like....but, i am concerned that their lack of defense will cost them down the line. They have tried to play defense on occasion, but the way they're built, they're built to outscore you, but i have seen them try and play defense in certain situations.

Jordan and Griffin have improved defensively, so, hopefully they can keep improving their games, Clippers block a lot of shots with Jordan leading the way, but i don't think they're constructed to win the NBA title with this team, they are lacking a Kendrick Perkins (in his prime of course) type of player, so maybe they'll make some kind of move at the trade deadline to beef up the defensive end. (is the trade deadline passed? Not sure)

Lastly, i'd love to ask for you to explain how Griffin has collapsed in the playoffs, he's been in the playoffs under Vinny Delnegro for the past 2 seasons, season one they won a grueling 7 game series vs Memphis with the entire team playing injured and then had a quick turnaround with virtually no rest vs a rested Spurs team....they had no shot to win a game in that series and they almost stole game 4, they played hard, but the entire team was hurt including Paul and Griffin (as well as Caron Butler and Eric Bledsoe).

Lets see how they do under Doc Rivers this season, i think they're poised to capture one of the top 4 seeds in the west, so they'll start off at home in Round 1, should be fun.

[ronsmac]

Lebron told Kevin Durant " not so fast my friend" last night.

[Stillriledup]

Magical night for Blake last night, hitting jumpers, 3 pt shots, free throws, flying lion dunks and buzzer beaters. Beastly performance in the face of a Suns team who was incredibly motivated and Eric Bledsoe had a career game.

Blake's dunk at 2:00 in this highlight package.

Dx_5eCjSPi0

[Robert Fischer]

Magical night for Blake last night, hitting jumpers, 3 pt shots, free throws, flying lion dunks and buzzer beaters. Beastly performance in the face of a Suns team who was incredibly motivated and Eric Bledsoe had a career game.

Blake's dunk at 2:00 in this highlight package.

Dx_5eCjSPi0
LeBron - F
Durant - F
Chris Paul - PG
Blake Griffin - PF
Anthony Davis - C

[cj]

LeBron - F
Durant - F
Chris Paul - PG
Blake Griffin - PF
Anthony Davis - C

Davis doesn't play center. I'd take him over Griffin 100 times out of 100. Griffin had a great game obviously, but he isn't playing as well this year as he has the last few. Rebounding and shooting percentage are noticeably down.

But this isn't a knock on Griffin, it is more about Davis. I think he is a top 5 NBA player right now, possibly top 3. He is just on a team that isn't very good.

[Robert Fischer]

Davis doesn't play center. I'd take him over Griffin 100 times out of 100. Griffin had a great game obviously, but he isn't playing as well this year as he has the last few. Rebounding and shooting percentage are noticeably down.

But this isn't a knock on Griffin, it is more about Davis. I think he is a top 5 NBA player right now, possibly top 3. He is just on a team that isn't very good.
Davis is surpassing expectations.

He's gonna have to guard opposing bigs for me.

Do you suggest any lineup changes? Do you have a different top-5 or top team?

[cj]

Davis is surpassing expectations.

He's gonna have to guard opposing bigs for me.

Do you suggest any lineup changes? Do you have a different top-5 or top team?

Your top 5 has no SG either, so I won't go by position.

My top 5 right now:

James, Durant, Davis, Westbrook, Curry

[Stillriledup]

Your top 5 has no SG either, so I won't go by position.

My top 5 right now:

James, Durant, Davis, Westbrook, Curry

Sorry, i'm going to respectfully disagree with putting Davis ahead of Griffin at this point. James and Durant are the consensus 1-2 guys so i'm not going to ever argue that they're not, but the next 3 guys are interchangeable, in fact, there's probably 5 to 7 players who at any time could jump into the 2nd half of the top 5.

I'm not sure what criteria you use to determine top 5, is it just 100% statistic based? Is there ANY "eyeball test" stuff in your top 5?

Davis is like Kevin Love was with Minny, playing on a bad team, being largely invisible as far as winning games goes and collecting garbage stats when nobody is paying attention.

Blake just played Davis, but there was really never a point in the game where you felt that Davis's team was going to win, when the Clippers play, teams know that there's very little room for error if you plan on winning, you have to play hard and play a perfect game to win, so Griffin gets defended much differently than Davis, when good teams play New Orleans, they know they don't have to play balls to the wall to win, it was the same when people played the Wolves, since there's no urgency, Davis (and love with Minny) wasn't guarded or defended like it mattered, so those guys can "get theirs" largely under the radar, with Griffin, he's defended like they know if Blake "Gets his" the Clippers are probably going to win.

This is not to mention that Griffin is on all these tv commercials and he's posterized plenty of players over the years, which means when players defend Blake or play against him, their intensity level is raised, not only because they want to beat "Kia man" but because the Clippers are an elite team and in order to win, you have to play harder than if you're playing the Hornets (or whatever they are called these days).

That's where the eyeball test comes in, if Griffin wasn't a #1 pick on all these tv commercials and dunking in people's faces as well as being on a top team, people woudn't play as hard against him, there's much more urgency for players to not end up on Blake Griffin posters, but because he's a big shot who does tv commercials and wins slam dunk titles, guys want to beat him and its much more "personal" than it is with Davis, who is piling up stats under the radar.

[cj]

Sorry, i'm going to respectfully disagree with putting Davis ahead of Griffin at this point. James and Durant are the consensus 1-2 guys so i'm not going to ever argue that they're not, but the next 3 guys are interchangeable, in fact, there's probably 5 to 7 players who at any time could jump into the 2nd half of the top 5.

I'm not sure what criteria you use to determine top 5, is it just 100% statistic based? Is there ANY "eyeball test" stuff in your top 5?

Davis is like Kevin Love was with Minny, playing on a bad team, being largely invisible as far as winning games goes and collecting garbage stats when nobody is paying attention.

Blake just played Davis, but there was really never a point in the game where you felt that Davis's team was going to win, when the Clippers play, teams know that there's very little room for error if you plan on winning, you have to play hard and play a perfect game to win, so Griffin gets defended much differently than Davis, when good teams play New Orleans, they know they don't have to play balls to the wall to win, it was the same when people played the Wolves, since there's no urgency, Davis (and love with Minny) wasn't guarded or defended like it mattered, so those guys can "get theirs" largely under the radar, with Griffin, he's defended like they know if Blake "Gets his" the Clippers are probably going to win.

This is not to mention that Griffin is on all these tv commercials and he's posterized plenty of players over the years, which means when players defend Blake or play against him, their intensity level is raised, not only because they want to beat "Kia man" but because the Clippers are an elite team and in order to win, you have to play harder than if you're playing the Hornets (or whatever they are called these days).

That's where the eyeball test comes in, if Griffin wasn't a #1 pick on all these tv commercials and dunking in people's faces as well as being on a top team, people woudn't play as hard against him, there's much more urgency for players to not end up on Blake Griffin posters, but because he's a big shot who does tv commercials and wins slam dunk titles, guys want to beat him and its much more "personal" than it is with Davis, who is piling up stats under the radar.

It isn't just statistics based. I watch a TON of NBA games, including all the Thunder home games live and countless others on TV. It is my favorite sport, bar none.

I think Davis is better based on what I've seen. He is nearly as good offensively already, and much better defensively, not even close on that front.

As far as your "they all play hard against the Clippers", which you've trotted out before, it is rubbish. Teams don't play any differently than they do against other good teams. Maybe if the Clippers get out of the 2nd round of the playoffs some day they'll get special consideration.

I said a while back I'm not the biggest Kevin Love fan. He is obviously very good, but there are a few power forwards I'd take above him, including Griffin and Davis. Aldridge is another.

[Stillriledup]

It isn't just statistics based. I watch a TON of NBA games, including all the Thunder home games live and countless others on TV. It is my favorite sport, bar none.

I think Davis is better based on what I've seen. He is nearly as good offensively already, and much better defensively, not even close on that front.

As far as your "they all play hard against the Clippers", which you've trotted out before, it is rubbish. Teams don't play any differently than they do against other good teams. Maybe if the Clippers get out of the 2nd round of the playoffs some day they'll get special consideration.

I said a while back I'm not the biggest Kevin Love fan. He is obviously very good, but there are a few power forwards I'd take above him, including Griffin and Davis. Aldridge is another.

I didnt' doubt you pay attention, just wasn't sure if eyeball test was something you used as the main criteria or it was just a small part and your main opinion on top 5 was largely statistics based.

Teams play harder vs the Clippers because they have to. You know the NBA, nobody is extended to the bottom of the well in all 82 games, so you have to sort of pick and choose which games you treat like playoff games.

The Suns played out of their brain the other night, if i didnt know it was a regular season game i would have thought it was game 7 of the Finals. No way the Suns play like that every night, they were so emotionally drained vs LAC that they lost at home to Miami (which was going to be my writeup pick here, but Canarise caused me to just refrain from giving it out) and i know they didnt play as hard or as emotional last night at home as they did 2 night ago in LA.

[cj]

I didnt' doubt you pay attention, just wasn't sure if eyeball test was something you used as the main criteria or it was just a small part and your main opinion on top 5 was largely statistics based.

Teams play harder vs the Clippers because they have to. You know the NBA, nobody is extended to the bottom of the well in all 82 games, so you have to sort of pick and choose which games you treat like playoff games.

The Suns played out of their brain the other night, if i didnt know it was a regular season game i would have thought it was game 7 of the Finals. No way the Suns play like that every night, they were so emotionally drained vs LAC that they lost at home to Miami (which was going to be my writeup pick here, but Canarise caused me to just refrain from giving it out) and i know they didnt play as hard or as emotional last night at home as they did 2 night ago in LA.

So why would teams play harder against the Clippers than they do against the Spurs, Memphis, Golden State, Portland, OKC, Cleveland, Chicago, etc?

Schedules have a lot more to do with how hard it appears teams play than do opponents IMO.

[Stillriledup]

So why would teams play harder against the Clippers than they do against the Spurs, Memphis, Golden State, Portland, OKC, Cleveland, Chicago, etc?

Schedules have a lot more to do with how hard it appears teams play than do opponents IMO.

I would say part of it is that the better the team you're playing, the harder you have to play in order to win...so, just by definition, if you're playing a top team you know the effort that is going to be required to even have a chance is much higher than if you're playing Philly or some other team like that.

Also, the Clippers are the Clippers, they're on tv commercials, they're from LA (which automatically makes them a target) and they play a brand of basketball that is high flying, guys on other teams don't appreciate all the dunks and stuff like that, so yeah, teams are going to want to beat the Clippers more than someone else. Golden State has a HUGE chip on their shoulder when they play the Clippers, i know for sure they raise their game and play much harder, that's one team i know gets up for a rivalry and right now the Warriors and Clippers have a "dislike" for each other.

Does anyone dislike the Spurs? The face of their team is Tim Duncan and he's not nearly as demonstrative as the Clippers, and those guys are all older and businesslike, so while they're going to play hard vs SA because they have to, there's no extra "mustard" that guys are going to have in those games......maybe Dallas will play harder vs SA than they will vs LAC because of intra-state rivalry, but for the most part, teams want to beat the Clippers.

Its just my opinion that teams get up for LAC more, if you don't see that, i can respect that.

[cj]

Its just my opinion that teams get up for LAC more, if you don't see that, i can respect that.

Sounds like homer vision to me. These guys are professionals. Sure, they are human, but they try hard most of the time...sometimes the bodies just won't allow maximum effort.

[Stillriledup]

Sounds like homer vision to me. These guys are professionals. Sure, they are human, but they try hard most of the time...sometimes the bodies just won't allow maximum effort.

NBA players are being paid a lot of money to perform, so yeah, for the most part, guys are going to play pretty hard nightly, i just think that the difference between playing hard as a pro is different than playing hard when you have a chip on your shoulder. You don't think Steph Curry gets up a little higher to beat Griffin and the Clippers? If you dont see it or don't think it, like i said, that's fine, you're allowed to have that opinion.

[cj]

NBA players are being paid a lot of money to perform, so yeah, for the most part, guys are going to play pretty hard nightly, i just think that the difference between playing hard as a pro is different than playing hard when you have a chip on your shoulder. You don't think Steph Curry gets up a little higher to beat Griffin and the Clippers? If you dont see it or don't think it, like i said, that's fine, you're allowed to have that opinion.

Of course guys get up for some games more than others, I just don't see the Clippers as a team targeted by the majority of the NBA. They have rivals like everybody else. Players care about winning, not commercials. The Clippers have won what, one series in the playoffs?

[Stillriledup]

Of course guys get up for some games more than others, I just don't see the Clippers as a team targeted by the majority of the NBA. They have rivals like everybody else. Players care about winning, not commercials. The Clippers have won what, one series in the playoffs?

I think players are "offended" that the Clippers are getting all this press and doing all these commercials and haven't won anything, so i think that's a factor as well as the dunks and lob city. Its hard to lob and dunk like that without rival players taking it personally. Griffin gets CLOBBERED nowadays, much more than Davis, he's fouled on almost every play as well as double and triple teamed. Not sure Anthony Davis is being guarded and hounded like this. In fact, i know for sure he's not.

[magwell]

I think all teams get up to play Lebron what ever team he's on,and you cant blame them, what other player could go from a title contender who then becomes "just another team" when he leaves, to a non contender team and make them a major contender overnight, nobody but a "real MVP of the NBA"...... nobody

[Robert Fischer]

I think all teams get up to play Lebron what ever team he's on,and you cant blame them, what other player could go from a title contender who then becomes "just another team" when he leaves, to a non contender team and make them a major contender overnight, nobody but a "real MVP of the NBA"...... nobody

No doubt about it.

Everyone gets up to play LeBron.
He's the MVP. :ThmbUp:

[Robert Fischer]

Blake just played Davis,...

I'm biased against Blake Griffin and in favor of Anthony Davis.

Davis has incredible upside. He's eventually going to be a legit defensive POY while being an all-star on offense.

Griffin and the Clippers are poised to make a serious run at a title. They need such a run to shed their label of a 'superficial regular season squad'.

Griffin's game is more complete than in year's past. Pick and roll, face-up jumper, up-and-under move in the post...
We are seeing a 2014 Stockton to Malone out there now in Paul to Griffin.

Griffin got the best of Davis in the matchup, and it wasn't just Davis worn thin against a superior team, - Griffin was fed the ball repeatedly as if Davis was a mismatch.

[Stillriledup]

I'm biased against Blake Griffin and in favor of Anthony Davis.

Davis has incredible upside. He's eventually going to be a legit defensive POY while being an all-star on offense.

Griffin and the Clippers are poised to make a serious run at a title. They need such a run to shed their label of a 'superficial regular season squad'.

Griffin's game is more complete than in year's past. Pick and roll, face-up jumper, up-and-under move in the post...
We are seeing a 2014 Stockton to Malone out there now in Paul to Griffin.

Griffin got the best of Davis in the matchup, and it wasn't just Davis worn thin against a superior team, - Griffin was fed the ball repeatedly as if Davis was a mismatch.

Don't get me wrong, i like Davis a lot, he's really "long" and moves so well for someone his size, the sky is the limit for sure. I think its really different when you are a "target" for lack of a better word, its also a LOT different when you're on a really good team and not being one great player on a bad (or average) team. That's why Love looked so good, when teams played the Wolves, they knew they didn't really have to work hard defensively vs love because what was the difference, it wasn't like the wolves were going to win anyway, so Love was able to collect garbage, pile up stats in non-winning situations.

I'm not in love with the Clippers to be able to win the title this year, i just think they lack some interior toughness and their bench isn't anything to write home about, they're really depending a LOT on Crawford as the 6th man, but when the starters are off the court, these guys look lost, there doesn't seem to be much chemistry with the backup group as well as effort...that's really what you need out of the 2nd group, you need unbridled effort, and its just like these guys are going thru the motions.

[Robert Fischer]

I'm not in love with the Clippers to be able to win the title this year, i just think they lack some interior toughness and their bench isn't anything to write home about, they're really depending a LOT on Crawford as the 6th man, but when the starters are off the court, these guys look lost, there doesn't seem to be much chemistry with the backup group as well as effort...that's really what you need out of the 2nd group, you need unbridled effort, and its just like these guys are going thru the motions.
Really?

They look like the champs to me.

Clips play like they have superior coaching.

I have no idea what level of coaching that they actually have. Maybe it's just Paul and their chemistry. Doesn't really matter 'why'.
And I may not even see things the right way.

I'm simply talking about working backwards from watching them score the ball, and rewinding from there = out of the hoop-> and back into DeAndre Jordan's hands,-> and arcing out of Jordan's hands up and down back into Chris Paul's hands,-> and watching Chris Paul dribble backwards, diagonally through defenders to the top of the key,-> as Paul takes his eyes off Blake Griffin,-> and Griffin stalks backwards into a screen position drawing defenders away from him.

I'm just saying, that's what I see, but who knows.

Certainly, the Clippers have a reputation as a paper tiger.
You are saying they have all these teams taking shots at them...
Maybe so, to some extent. In the other top team's heart-of-hearts, I don't think there is a level of respect or fear of the Clippers.

I think I do see enough genuine fundamental quality there.

and this is the year to do it-
Cleveland is not quite the super-team some thought. Whether or not Love elevates to the elite level come playoff time, will be key. The energy of the playoffs could see the Cavaliers either elevating to champion-level, or highlighting chemistry problems. Spurs are a wonderful team, but they are grinders. Oklahoma City is vulnerable. Golden State has more questions than even LAC.

[Stillriledup]

The Clippers aren't really "improved" per se over the last few years. Maybe Blake is a little more rounded, but overall, there's not that 'x factor' to get them over the hump.

They have a lot of 3 pt shooters, and their starters are obviously strong, but the backups are shaky.

Clips have great coaching, they have 2 asst coaches who were successful HCs in the league and of course, Sudden Sam Cassell to round it out, maybe they can win without a "kendrick Perkins in his prime" type of player, but i just don't know, they'll be there due to being able to score, but they're not deep and if they get one key player injured, they really have nobody to step in, they don't have anyone close to Eric Bledsoe coming off the bench in a defensive role, he's a far superior player to Jordan Farmar, so as far as CP3s backup, that took a hit and not sure how that will matter down the line, i get the feeling that Doc doesn't trust these backups to hold the fort, i would check the starters minutes and see how many miniutes these guys play compared to previous years, that will give you the "Tell" to how confident the coaches are in the backups....my guess right now is that they're worried a bit.

[lansdale]

Since some of the usual suspects for this list (Durant, Westbrook) haven't played many minutes, and others, like LBJ, have been a little below par, I'm going with the players who actually seem to be playing best at the moment - will be different by the end of the year. The biggest shockeroo is Harden's transformation into a force on the defensive end. He's #2 in the league on Defensive Win Shares.

WS

1.Anthony Davis
2. Stephen Curry
3. Chris Paul
4. James Harden
5. Kyle Lowery

WS

1. Anthony Davis
2. Stephen Curry
3. Chris Paul
4. Brandan Wright
5. James Harden

[lansdale]

Since some of the usual suspects for this list (Durant, Westbrook) haven't played many minutes, and others, like LBJ, have been a little below par, I'm going with the players who actually seem to be playing best at the moment - will be different by the end of the year. The biggest shockeroo is Harden's transformation into a force on the defensive end. He's #2 in the league on Defensive Win Shares.

WS

1.Anthony Davis
2. Stephen Curry
3. Chris Paul
4. James Harden
5. Kyle Lowery

WS

1. Anthony Davis
2. Stephen Curry
3. Chris Paul
4. Brandan Wright
5. James Harden

Second category should be WS-48.

[cj]

Since some of the usual suspects for this list (Durant, Westbrook) haven't played many minutes, and others, like LBJ, have been a little below par, I'm going with the players who actually seem to be playing best at the moment - will be different by the end of the year. The biggest shockeroo is Harden's transformation into a force on the defensive end. He's #2 in the league on Defensive Win Shares.

WS

1.Anthony Davis
2. Stephen Curry
3. Chris Paul
4. James Harden
5. Kyle Lowery

WS

1. Anthony Davis
2. Stephen Curry
3. Chris Paul
4. Brandan Wright
5. James Harden

The Harden thing won't last, more playing a ridiculously easy schedule so far. Watched several games this year, average at best on D.

[lansdale]

The Harden thing won't last, more playing a ridiculously easy schedule so far. Watched several games this year, average at best on D.

You could be right. But the team is obviously dedicated to D this year - this could be for real. Just have to watch.

[cj]

You could be right. But the team is obviously dedicated to D this year - this could be for real. Just have to watch.

They are better, and I still like Harden. He didn't trade himself.

[cj]

From Twitter:

Royce Young ‏@royceyoung

Westbrook's per 36 numbers don't seem real: 31.6 points, 7.1 rebounds and 8.3 assists.

[Stillriledup]

From Twitter:

Royce Young ‏@royceyoung

Westbrook's per 36 numbers don't seem real: 31.6 points, 7.1 rebounds and 8.3 assists.

If he's not the best in the game right now with those numbers, he's really close.

[lansdale]

From Twitter:

Royce Young ‏@royceyoung

Westbrook's per 36 numbers don't seem real: 31.6 points, 7.1 rebounds and 8.3 assists.

...still the best index of player value. WB, w/only 294 mp doesn't yet qualify in the listed stat totals (think ca. 425 min. at this point) - the average comparable starter has played 600-700 minutes. That aside, with a WS 48 of .298, the highest of his career, WB is, right now, the best player in the NBA, slightly edging out Anthony Davis and Stephan Curry. The big difference, is not his assists or rebounds, which are in line with his recent average, but his shooting - an order-of-magnitude jump in FG%. If he can maintain this level throughout the season, OKC may be unbeatable in the post-season.

[cj]

...still the best index of player value. WB, w/only 294 mp doesn't yet qualify in the listed stat totals (think ca. 425 min. at this point) - the average comparable starter has played 600-700 minutes. That aside, with a WS 48 of .298, the highest of his career, WB is, right now, the best player in the NBA, slightly edging out Anthony Davis and Stephan Curry. The big difference, is not his assists or rebounds, which are in line with his recent average, but his shooting - an order-of-magnitude jump in FG%. If he can maintain this level throughout the season, OKC may be unbeatable in the post-season.

He is taking less threes, and making more of those he does take. I'm pretty sure he is drawing more fouls as well and he is a good free throw shooter.

[Canarsie]

He is taking less threes, and making more of those he does take. I'm pretty sure he is drawing more fouls as well and he is a good free throw shooter.

That's what makes him the top PG in the game as of today. When he is outside the 3 line most opponents will give him that shot but if he tries to drive inside from there defensive rotations might have to scramble quite a bit. It was the only thing stopping him from being the best at his position and a first ballot hall of famer.

If he continues to shoot less from the three line (unless he's hot) he definitely deserves consideration (I know its very early) as MVP even with the missed games. He certainly has impressed me and I will comment quickly when he hogs the ball or shoots twenty six footers and beyond. It looks like his thought process has changed the ring is more important than individual honors.

[lansdale]

He is taking less threes, and making more of those he does take. I'm pretty sure he is drawing more fouls as well and he is a good free throw shooter.

That's it. He's taking about 1.5 fewer threes, and making roughly 1 more two-pt. shot than his recent average. And, as you say, getting to the line more - I'm guessing this last stat may owe something to playing more at home. Worth noting, he's only played about 10 games. Before people start thinking about him as the best point in the game, his WS 48 average of the past two years is about .18, so I think the question is whether he can maintain this current incredibly high level. Steph Curry, mean WS 48 ca. .20 for the past two years, and Chris Paul, ca. .275.

[cj]

That's it. He's taking about 1.5 fewer threes, and making roughly 1 more two-pt. shot than his recent average. And, as you say, getting to the line more - I'm guessing this last stat may owe something to playing more at home. Worth noting, he's only played about 10 games. Before people start thinking about him as the best point in the game, his WS 48 average of the past two years is about .18, so I think the question is whether he can maintain this current incredibly high level. Steph Curry, mean WS 48 ca. .20 for the past two years, and Chris Paul, ca. .275.

I understand, no way to know if he keeps it up. But I'm not living and dying on win shares either. Westbrook pretty much dominates Paul head to head every time they play. Does defense weight into that stat at all? Because he is probably better than both on that end too.

[Robert Fischer]

Davis is back vs. Utah, after that 'chest contusion' thing. Underwent some tests and all came back well.

Pretty good game GS vs Mem
Top 2 NBA records @ MEM(11-1home)

[cj]

Davis is back vs. Utah, after that 'chest contusion' thing. Underwent some tests and all came back well.

Pretty good game GS vs Mem
Top 2 NBA records @ MEM(11-1home)

No Bogut for GS, which will be a problem if he isn't healthy come the playoffs. He rarely is.

[Robert Fischer]

No Bogut for GS, which will be a problem if he isn't healthy come the playoffs. He rarely is.
Memphis favored 2.5pts...

[lansdale]

I understand, no way to know if he keeps it up. But I'm not living and dying on win shares either. Westbrook pretty much dominates Paul head to head every time they play. Does defense weight into that stat at all? Because he is probably better than both on that end too.

I appreciate how much you love WB - I agree he's a great player. But I don't think the outcomes of their matchups is relevant in what is, after all, a team game. And that's what WS 48 measures - the value of your contribution to team wins - if you reverse engineer it you can see it projects wins better than any other stat. As far as their differences, Paul is a better shooter from the floor and the free throw line. WB leads in ppg - 23/18, but he also takes more shots 17:13. They're equal on steals. WB is a better rebounder, by not by much 5.8:4.5 pg.. And of course, CP3 is a better passer 10:7 apg.. But it's not so much the difference in total passes as in passing efficiency - CP3's turnover-assist ration 4/1 to WB's 2/1. And in the games he's played so far this season, WB's t/a ration is about 7/4.

I think that last stat is an indicator of why some NBA fans, myself among them, question WB's composure and judgement, and would rate Paul above him in these crucial components of NBA post-season and championship play.

To put CP3's WS numbers in perspective, they're the highest for any pg in NBA history except for the Big O, and higher than any other guard, except for MJ, Kobe, and Jerry West. I think CP3 is somewhat the same posiion as Robertson at this point in his career - no championships until he teamed up with Jabbar. CP3 is still waiting, but Griffin is surely not Jabbar. So much more likely that WB will get that shot at a title first.

[lansdale]

Memphis favored 2.5pts...

So both David Lee and Bogut are out and the line is only Grizz -2.5? Wonder what Valuist would say about this?

[cj]

I think that last stat is an indicator of why some NBA fans, myself among them, question WB's composure and judgement, and would rate Paul above him in these crucial components of NBA post-season and championship play.


I get all this, but sometimes stats just don't measure everything. There are things that aren't measured. One example, Westbrook would easily average 2 assists more per game if he wasn't playing the last several years with god awful offensive players name Perkins and Sefalosha. He is asked to do different things because of the team around him.

Did you see Game 5 last year when Paul melted down and pissed away the series? Westbrook gets in his head. Paul has virtually no experience in the post season, at least winning in it, while Westbrook has three conference finals and an NBA Finals. He has gotten better in every one of them, and was arguably the best player in the playoffs last year.

[Robert Fischer]

I really haven't seen enough basketball lately to claim to have any accurate insight.

Westbrook is a star, but Durant has been the man, regardless of win shares. I know Durant is coming off an injury and WB is hot, but I'm talking about when things ultimately settle down.

Chris Paul is a very good player, and certainly an efficient all-star, but he hasn't struck me as an MVP type, regardless of WS. If Paul can continue to be a John Stockton type of player, that in itself is great for what it is.

Anthony Davis is probably a third player whose Win Shares may distort his quality, just a bit. Tremendously valuable player, exciting potential, putting up great numbers, but I think he's yet to reach that level where he can dominate a game irrespective of pressure or opponent.

All great players, and WS is probably one of the top statistical measures out there, but certainly room for interpretation.

[lansdale]

I get all this, but sometimes stats just don't measure everything. There are things that aren't measured. One example, Westbrook would easily average 2 assists more per game if he wasn't playing the last several years with god awful offensive players name Perkins and Sefalosha. He is asked to do different things because of the team around him.

Did you see Game 5 last year when Paul melted down and pissed away the series? Westbrook gets in his head. Paul has virtually no experience in the post season, at least winning in it, while Westbrook has three conference finals and an NBA Finals. He has gotten better in every one of them, and was arguably the best player in the playoffs last year.

I have to admit, I don't have the same kind of partisan intensity about these two guys as you and SRU naturally do. Both of them are great players and I love watching them compete. I agree that stats aren't everything, but when I look at the weighted composite stats, like WS 48, I find it usually agrees with my own subjective sense of how good a given player is, especially if they've been in the league for a couple of years. But even that doesn't convey the most important qualities for a player like CP3 or WB, who aspire to the highest level of the game: judgement, intelligence, composure.

For me, this is where CP3 has a decisive edge, and tips the balance in his favor. Gary Payton on his blog recently said something related: that there are only three real PGs in the NBA right now, Rondo, CP3, and Tony Parker. And by that, he meant a player who's a floor general, a guy who can recognize what's needed by his team at any given moment and does everything he can to fill it, whether it's scoring, playing more D, rebounding more, and of course getting the ball to the right people at the right time. I'm sure you would say WB does all these things, but I think it's difficult to deny that he still makes a lot of questionable decisions and plays on the edge of out-of-control at times. This isn't something you need stats to tell you, any experienced fan can see it. You can have guys like this in football and hockey - in fact maybe it's more of a positive than a negative. But hoops requires self-control big time. In fact, I can't think of any NBA player who was one of the one or two key players on his team who had this kind of personality, who won an NBA title.

One part of your post that I think is really false reasoning: that great players getting deep into the playoffs or to the championship is a sign of their greatness. There are many other examples, but take Kevin Garnett - no one would deny he's a HOF player. He's now in his 20th season, but has only played in two championship series, and only gotten to the conference finals two other times. In eight years of his career, his team didn't get out of the first round, and in six others, his team didn't make the playoffs. It was not until year 12 of his career that he got to the CF and not until the next year that he played for the championship.

As Nate Silver pointed out in debunking this idea, most players in the NBA never get anywhere near a championship. If you're a HOF player, you have a better chance than the average player, but you still won't get there unless you're coupled with at least one other HOF player, and won't win unless you have at least one more player who is at least an All-Star. In WB's 2011-2012 title appearance, he had two other undoubted HOF players, Durant and Harden, and a likely third, Ibaka. That's not to deny WB's great talent, but to say that he couldn't have gotten there without them. On the Clips, CP3 is the only HOFer (all due respect to Griffin), and it now seems very unlikely, given the stacked lineups of the west, that he'll ever have a chance to perform on that stage.

I would love to see both of these guys get a shot at the championship, but I think OKC is clearly the better team (which is why they won the last playoff series with the Clips) and, of these two players, WB is the one with a much better shot. But it doesn't mean he's a better player.

[cj]

I don't really disagree with any of that. How far a player goes in a team game doesn't necessarily mean they aren't a great player.

But my point was this...when the "out of control" guy faced the "floor general" when it mattered most, and the floor general had a chance to win the game and take a 3-2 lead on the road in a series, he choked. He made three bad to horrible plays that cost his team the series when the pressure was highest.

They are both great players and I'd take either one on my team. Paul has a better offensive team around him so he gets more assists, Westbrook has to score so he does that. Both are capable of doing the other if that is what the team needs.

I've seen them play in person head to head many times and it is a physical mismatch. I know it, Paul knows it, and Westbrook knows it. That is the real difference in my opinion. There is something to be said for bigger, faster, and stronger in sports when playing the same position.

We'll see how it all plays out, should be a great season. There are a lot of really good teams this year, and they are all in the West. Maybe Cleveland will be there later in the year from the East, but that is it.

[Robert Fischer]

are LeBron and Durant still the best of the NBA?

Are they still the best by a dominating margin, to the point that by season's end it will again be clear? Or has it become a lot closer?

[Stillriledup]

are LeBron and Durant still the best of the NBA?

Are they still the best by a dominating margin, to the point that by season's end it will again be clear? Or has it become a lot closer?

its a lot closer.

[cj]

are LeBron and Durant still the best of the NBA?

Are they still the best by a dominating margin, to the point that by season's end it will again be clear? Or has it become a lot closer?

I'm not really sure who else would be considered closer, other than Durant is just rounding back to form from his surgery.

[Robert Fischer]

its a lot closer.
yea?

[Stillriledup]

yea?

No question.

[Robert Fischer]

No question.
Why?

Interested in why you feel that to be the case. (as well as CJ, Lansdale, Valuist and any other fan's input).

Any players in particular? Griffin? Paul? Westbrook? Davis??

More a case of the LeBron and Durant slightly declining, Or more a case of the league catching up?


the jury is still out imo
LeBron seemed to lose a tiny bit of his physical edge. He lost that weight in the off-season, and things like growth-hormone or designer PEDs came to mind for me...(I think his public explanation was the 'paleo diet').
"The LeBron who could dunk on any player at any time is probably gone," was a recent headline. He's got a sore knee as well.

Durant obviously is coming off an injury.

I'll just have to see how these guys round into form for the playoffs. Long season and it's early.

When the "rings" or "deep playoffs" thing gets brought up - I do think it applies to the truly elite players.
LeBron is the best current example.
He's the top on-court player. He's literally good enough to take over games and decide games. He's also valuable to the league and to sponsors. Everyone has a better time when LeBron has every opportunity to go deep into the playoffs.
He's a rare superstar who combines the on top 1 or 2 players dominance with the corporate push.

Most all-stars, and even guys we are now calling 'Hall of Fame' guys aren't affecting the outcomes in that way, and I agree that for them, counting rings and playoff runs is almost meaningless.

CJ does make an interesting point about matchups like Paul and Westbrook.
I see the Clippers as a team ready to turn that corner, but those 'clutch' moments do mean a lot in my opinion.

[Stillriledup]

I feel that the NBA is by far the best company in the world at feeding a perception. They're amazing at making you feel they have "otherworldly" players on their court. When sports fans are asked who's the best athlete ever in American History, Michael Jordan's name will be at the top of many lists as the #1 guy and certainly, he would be in almost everyone's top 5.....its no coincidence, in my opinion, that he's an NBA player. They're great at making "Stars".

In 2014, in all sports, the athletes are the best they have ever been in history from a speed, size and athletic ability standpoint in all sports, so the top level 5 or 10 best guys are REALLY close...the only thing separating them is perception. NBA has been known to "Cater" to their star players and right now, Lebron is the "chosen one" to be the face of the NBA.

Do you think if the NBA decided tomorrow in their corporate offices that they were going to make Russell Westbrook the "Face" of the NBA, they wouldnt be able to convince you thru slight of hand that the's really the best player? They could do that very easily if they want to without most people even knowing they were manipulated like that.

Of course, in order to he a "chosen" player like MJ or Lebron or even Kobe in his prime, you have to actually be great, they're not going to choose a 2nd tier player and transform him into the incredible hulk.

NBA is a "Star creating" league, its not an accident that they had Michael jordan who was perceived to be head and shoulders better than the 2nd best player in his prime as is Lebron now. Its not an accident that if NBA fans are asked "who's the best" they know, all of them know and all of them have the same answer. They're not saying "Gee, like 5 or 10 guys are all equal" its never been that way in the NBA and won't be going forward as long as they can help it.

[lansdale]

Why?

Interested in why you feel that to be the case. (as well as CJ, Lansdale, Valuist and any other fan's input).

Any players in particular? Griffin? Paul? Westbrook? Davis??

More a case of the LeBron and Durant slightly declining, Or more a case of the league catching up?


the jury is still out imo
LeBron seemed to lose a tiny bit of his physical edge. He lost that weight in the off-season, and things like growth-hormone or designer PEDs came to mind for me...(I think his public explanation was the 'paleo diet').
"The LeBron who could dunk on any player at any time is probably gone," was a recent headline. He's got a sore knee as well.

Durant obviously is coming off an injury.

I'll just have to see how these guys round into form for the playoffs. Long season and it's early.

When the "rings" or "deep playoffs" thing gets brought up - I do think it applies to the truly elite players.
LeBron is the best current example.
He's the top on-court player. He's literally good enough to take over games and decide games. He's also valuable to the league and to sponsors. Everyone has a better time when LeBron has every opportunity to go deep into the playoffs.
He's a rare superstar who combines the on top 1 or 2 players dominance with the corporate push.

Most all-stars, and even guys we are now calling 'Hall of Fame' guys aren't affecting the outcomes in that way, and I agree that for them, counting rings and playoff runs is almost meaningless.

CJ does make an interesting point about matchups like Paul and Westbrook.
I see the Clippers as a team ready to turn that corner, but those 'clutch' moments do mean a lot in my opinion.

Hi RF,

Just to make a belated response to your post, with the injuries of key players like KD, WB, and LBJ, the hierarchy of top players in the NBA has been somewhat turned upside down this year, and I think it's likely we'll see someone new as MVP. If team record didn't mean anything, I'm guessing it would be Anthony (Brow) Davis, who is second only to LBJ in this year's All-Star voting. But since that does matter, it seems like it might come down to a contest between Curry and Harden. Although each is having a fantastic year, I would guess that the Dubs are more likely to go deep into the post-season, making Curry the likeliest candidate for MVP.

Current Top 5

Anthony Davis
Stephen Curry
James Harden
CP3
Russell WB/Jimmy Butler


Cheers,

lansdale

[Robert Fischer]

Hi RF,

Just to make a belated response to your post, with the injuries of key players like KD, WB, and LBJ, the hierarchy of top players in the NBA has been somewhat turned upside down this year, and I think it's likely we'll see someone new as MVP. If team record didn't mean anything, I'm guessing it would be Anthony (Brow) Davis, who is second only to LBJ in this year's All-Star voting. But since that does matter, it seems like it might come down to a contest between Curry and Harden. Although each is having a fantastic year, I would guess that the Dubs are more likely to go deep into the post-season, making Curry the likeliest candidate for MVP.

Current Top 5

Anthony Davis
Stephen Curry
James Harden
CP3
Russell WB/Jimmy Butler


Cheers,

lansdale

Pretty good top 5.

[cj]

Kevin Love is getting exposed big time this year. Do the Cavs even re-sign him?

[Relwob Owner]

Kevin Love is getting exposed big time this year. Do the Cavs even re-sign him?

I think "exposed" is a little severe....he has had an understandable dip in stats after adjusting to not having the ball as much with Lebron and Irving and not being the first option. He's never been accused of being a good defender but other than that, his stats in the last three games show there is nothing about him that is being "exposed' and he is still a very good baller.

[cj]

I think "exposed" is a little severe....he has had an understandable dip in stats after adjusting to not having the ball as much with Lebron and Irving and not being the first option. He's never been accused of being a good defender but other than that, his stats in the last three games show there is nothing about him that is being "exposed' and he is still a very good baller.

He is good, but people were talking like he was a Hall of Famer. He is a guy that is going to put up numbers if he is the first option, but if he is the first option that is not going to be a very good team. He might not be a top 5 power forward in the NBA right now if you are going to count defense.

[Robert Fischer]

He is good, but people were talking like he was a Hall of Famer. He is a guy that is going to put up numbers if he is the first option, but if he is the first option that is not going to be a very good team. He might not be a top 5 power forward in the NBA right now if you are going to count defense.
Yea.
The NBA that moves capital and sells tickets and cable packages..., and the NBA that moves game outcomes are two very different things.

Capital NBA = Love is an All Star, he's a 15 million a year player, he can support a market like Minnesota by himself. Very marketable and fan-friendly. Can put up big point totals fairly consistently when featured.

Game Outcome NBA = Love's real value is situational. The fact that he is a stretch-4 who can (when properly used) prevent the opposing PF from sagging in the lane to help against a screen for a guard, because he can counter with an efficient 3pt shot. He can hypothetically keep a forward from sagging to help against an Irving or James drive, greatly increasing the chance of a high percentage bucket, and being very productive from 3 when the defense sags, and Irving and James react unselfishly to set up Love.
When he's not actively being used to to exploit that specific situational skill, he also has a high IQ and above-average skill set, and below average athletic talent. He needs help in certain defensive situations from a strong well disciplined team-defense.

[Stillriledup]

Yea.
The NBA that moves capital and sells tickets and cable packages..., and the NBA that moves game outcomes are two very different things.

Capital NBA = Love is an All Star, he's a 15 million a year player, he can support a market like Minnesota by himself. Very marketable and fan-friendly. Can put up big point totals fairly consistently when featured.

Game Outcome NBA = Love's real value is situational. The fact that he is a stretch-4 who can (when properly used) prevent the opposing PF from sagging in the lane to help against a screen for a guard, because he can counter with an efficient 3pt shot. He can hypothetically keep a forward from sagging to help against an Irving or James drive, greatly increasing the chance of a high percentage bucket, and being very productive from 3 when the defense sags, and Irving and James react unselfishly to set up Love.
When he's not actively being used to to exploit that specific situational skill, he also has a high IQ and above-average skill set, and below average athletic talent. He needs help in certain defensive situations from a strong well disciplined team-defense.

I've been critical of Love as overrated, its easy to get garbage time points and rebounds when nobody takes your team seriously and guys just retreat on defense after they shoot. Many of Love's rebounds were when he was the only guy battling for the ball....guys dont battle him because the team he's playing for (Minny) stunk. In many of the games where Griffin matched up against Love, Griffin destroyed him and it was only late in the game when the game was out of reach, with Blake on the bench because Clips had insurmountable lead, that Love "Acquired his stats" and looked good on paper.

[Robert Fischer]

...guys dont battle him because the team he's playing for (Minny) stunk.

A lot of the teams that played Love and the T'Wolves were saving their energy for the Clippers. :cool:

[Stillriledup]

A lot of the teams that played Love and the T'Wolves were saving their energy for the Clippers. :cool:

Or their wives.

oShTJ90fC34

[Relwob Owner]

He is good, but people were talking like he was a Hall of Famer. He is a guy that is going to put up numbers if he is the first option, but if he is the first option that is not going to be a very good team. He might not be a top 5 power forward in the NBA right now if you are going to count defense.

Understood. I think your 'exposed' thought was in retrospect more geared towards the thread title than him not being a very good player overall. Counting D, your thought of him not being in the top 5 could be spot on.

[Stillriledup]

Anyone want to update your top 5?

[cj]

Anyone want to update your top 5?

I don't remember who I had, but I'd go this way:

James
Durant
Westbrook
Curry
Harden

If we exclude Durant because of injury, I'd add Paul, he has really stepped it up. It is a shame he hurt himself, I want to see him get a fair shot.

[Stillriledup]

I don't remember who I had, but I'd go this way:

James
Durant
Westbrook
Curry
Harden

If we exclude Durant because of injury, I'd add Paul, he has really stepped it up. It is a shame he hurt himself, I want to see him get a fair shot.

Yeah, its tough to pick top 5 because you have to leave out Griffin and Davis and Paul, hard to argue with your top 5, you can really go anyway you want there and its hard to argue.

How about this for a top 10 (not necessarily in order)

James
Durant
Curry
Westbrook
Harden
Griffin
Paul
Davis
Irving
Leonard

[cj]

Yeah, its tough to pick top 5 because you have to leave out Griffin and Davis and Paul, hard to argue with your top 5, you can really go anyway you want there and its hard to argue.

How about this for a top 10 (not necessarily in order)

James
Durant
Curry
Westbrook
Harden
Griffin
Paul
Davis
Irving
Leonard

Even top 10 is tough, not sure I'd have Leonard or Irving in mine. If not, I'd add Marc Gasol (not pretty but so effective) and LaMarcus Aldridge. Aldridge dealt with injuries all year and wasn't himself, but even then he was still really good.

Irving it still just a scorer, a really good one, but one dimensional. Leonard will be there some day most likely, is a really good all around player, but he isn't that gifted offensively.

[Stillriledup]

Even top 10 is tough, not sure I'd have Leonard or Irving in mine. If not, I'd add Marc Gasol (not pretty but so effective) and LaMarcus Aldridge. Aldridge dealt with injuries all year and wasn't himself, but even then he was still really good.

Irving it still just a scorer, a really good one, but one dimensional. Leonard will be there some day most likely, is a really good all around player, but he isn't that gifted offensively.

I had Gasol and Aldridge on the bubble, they're probably the next two guys, you could swap them out for Irving and Leonard and i wouldn't have a problem with it.

[Stillriledup]

Even top 10 is tough, not sure I'd have Leonard or Irving in mine. If not, I'd add Marc Gasol (not pretty but so effective) and LaMarcus Aldridge. Aldridge dealt with injuries all year and wasn't himself, but even then he was still really good.

Irving it still just a scorer, a really good one, but one dimensional. Leonard will be there some day most likely, is a really good all around player, but he isn't that gifted offensively.

If you take Irving out of the top 10, the only 2 teams with two top 10 guys are LAC and OKC.

[ronsmac]

I don't have Irving in the top10, but to the guy I had the argument with about Irving. I concede, you were right and i was wrong. He's much better than I thought.

[Stillriledup]

I don't have Irving in the top10, but to the guy I had the argument with about Irving. I concede, you were right and i was wrong. He's much better than I thought.

If he's not actual top 10 yet, he's on the fringes and certainly top 15. Lots of players in that top 10/15 are really close, many of them interchangeable.

[cj]

If you take Irving out of the top 10, the only 2 teams with two top 10 guys are LAC and OKC.

True, but it is still a team game. Both have pretty weak benches. I think the Thunder improved that a ton, but it was tough to tell with injuries this year so the jury is out. The Clippers bench is the only thing holding them back right now. It is better, and Rivers is shocking me and showing signs of life, but still far from a strength.

Atlanta and Chicago have nobody that anyone would put in the top 10, they just have a lot of really good players.

[cj]

I don't have Irving in the top10, but to the guy I had the argument with about Irving. I concede, you were right and i was wrong. He's much better than I thought.

I remember when most thought he was the guy that wouldn't fit with Lebron, but in the end it was K-Love. They are going to rue the day they traded Wiggins for him, if they aren't already.

[Stillriledup]

True, but it is still a team game. Both have pretty weak benches. I think the Thunder improved that a ton, but it was tough to tell with injuries this year so the jury is out. The Clippers bench is the only thing holding them back right now. It is better, and Rivers is shocking me and showing signs of life, but still far from a strength.

Atlanta and Chicago have nobody that anyone would put in the top 10, they just have a lot of really good players.

No doubt. Its amazing the Clips were able to beat the Spurs considering the benches, Rivers is streaky and has some talent/upside, but he's too inconsistent and out of control, but he's young and should learn a few more fundamentals of the game, his own strengths and become more polished. Its like it feels like he's not a true PG, but in this role, he's playing PG and is on a new team, lots of pressure with his dad there and the expectations and whatnut but you're totally right, the Clippers need a better bench, its totally holding them back, other than Crawford and Rivers on occasion, the other guys are a mess.

[ronsmac]

I remember when most thought he was the guy that wouldn't fit with Lebron, but in the end it was K-Love. They are going to rue the day they traded Wiggins for him, if they aren't already.I thought it was a good trade at the time. Then I had my doubts. I was encouraged during the Boston series before the injury. Now if he leaves it'll really be bad.

[cj]

I thought it was a good trade at the time. Then I had my doubts. I was encouraged during the Boston series before the injury. Now if he leaves it'll really be bad.

He won't leave this year I don't believe, he can wait another year then make a lot more money as a free agent, if his stock doesn't drop too severely in the interim.

[Stillriledup]

Yeah, its tough to pick top 5 because you have to leave out Griffin and Davis and Paul, hard to argue with your top 5, you can really go anyway you want there and its hard to argue.

How about this for a top 10 (not necessarily in order)

James
Durant
Curry
Westbrook
AUSTIN RIVERS
Griffin
Paul
Davis
Irving
Leonard


Updated list. Harden got replaced by RIV-SANITY! :D

[Canarsie]

He won't leave this year I don't believe, he can wait another year then make a lot more money as a free agent, if his stock doesn't drop too severely in the interim.

Money can't buy happiness even though it's rare for a max player to be attempt to seek greener pastures.

Howard did it and my hunch is he thinks it was the right move. If its true that Kobe and him couldn't get along get the hell out of there. The same would apply to Love if he's really that miserable.

If a person could get a job at a starting rate of $110,000 but knows management sucks there are alternatives. He can go to an organization that pays $100,000 but knows that his work and ideas won't go unnoticed trying to climb the ladder. One has to decide what their priorities are and what they think the future might bring.

It's hard to leave ten grand (as a microscopic comparison) on the table but in the long run it might prove beneficial. The same could be saod about Love only time will tell.

[cj]

Money can't buy happiness even though it's rare for a max player to be attempt to seek greener pastures.

Howard did it and my hunch is he thinks it was the right move. If its true that Kobe and him couldn't get along get the hell out of there. The same would apply to Love if he's really that miserable.

If a person could get a job at a starting rate of $110,000 but knows management sucks there are alternatives. He can go to an organization that pays $100,000 but knows that his work and ideas won't go unnoticed trying to climb the ladder. One has to decide what their priorities are and what they think the future might bring.

It's hard to leave ten grand (as a microscopic comparison) on the table but in the long run it might prove beneficial. The same could be saod about Love only time will tell.

I understand your point, but there is going to be a huge difference in the salary cap and the max salary level after next year. The cap is projected to be 67.1 million for next season, 89 the year after, and 108 after that. It will be interesting this summer for a lot of players. Probably going to be shorter contracts than we are used to seeing.

[cj]

Updated list. Harden got replaced by RIV-SANITY! :D

Dude has one good game and mocks Harden, he'll probably regret that, very immature.

[Stillriledup]

Dude has one good game and mocks Harden, he'll probably regret that, very immature.

its not something i would have done, i would have just let the "scoreboard" do the talking, but to be fair, you don't know what goes on in the trash talk dept, you dont know what's been said to Rivers by the Rockets players on the court, so i take any of that stuff with a grain of salt, the guy had a career game, he was feeling his oats, he's 22 and got carried away, you got Harden's mom trash talking the players so if she's doing it, who's to say Harden isn't doing it too. Without knowing the context of what has been said on the court, its hard to come down too hard on him for mocking. Rivers might have been minding his own business and playing the game and some players on the Rockets could have been getting personal with him and saying stuff about daddy and whatnut.

[Canarsie]

I understand your point, but there is going to be a huge difference in the salary cap and the max salary level after next year. The cap is projected to be 67.1 million for next season, 89 the year after, and 108 after that. It will be interesting this summer for a lot of players. Probably going to be shorter contracts than we are used to seeing.

When the playoffs are all over I will start reading the salary cap gurus. I can't make heads or tails about it when it comes to certain issues. This is a sport where an agent really earns his fee the contracts can get really complex. He or she might have to hire a guru so he gets the contract worded exactly as he or she wants.

Durant won't struggle he gets 30 mil from Nike alone. If he really wants to go back home the endorsements from the D. C. metro area will surely soften the blow and possibly (I don't think so) even put it in the plus column.

If allowed a three year deal with an opt out after two would be ideal if you want to move. Whether they are then eligible for a max deal with the new team I have no clue.

Let's not forget a probable work stoppage in 2017-18. I'm sure KD will do this with an abundance of other players joining in.


According to the CBA, the default payment schedule is 12 months (24 paychecks) but players who make above the minimum salary can choose to be over 18 months (36 paychecks) or six months (12 paychecks)

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/salaries/2014/07/01/nbpa-union-players-18-month-contracts-prepare-for-lockout/11902881/

[Canarsie]

Dude has one good game and mocks Harden, he'll probably regret that, very immature.

Ya think??? :eek:

You mean an unintentional elbow in the paint when it's crowded. Or for a crafty veteran some move that even tv won't pick up right away.

[Stillriledup]

Dude has one good game and mocks Harden, he'll probably regret that, very immature.

James can watch Austin on tv tomorrow night :jump:

(Then they can meet each other Saturday morning for some golf) :D