Kirk Ziadie and Frank Calabrese

[Beachbabe]

Ziadie wins both ends of today's Daily Double(first 2 races).

The first race he wins with a horse he claimed out of his last race. Ziadie, before today, is a whopping 47% first off the claim.

In the second race he wins with a horse he claimed two races back. Of course in this horse's first race for Ziadie, he improved the horse's best Beyer by a mere 23 pts as the horse won by 11 lengths. Today, the horse drew off to win by open lengths again.

Ziadie is just 8 for 23 at Gulf, but will most assuredly pick those figures up.
It's amazing how Frank Calabrese can pick these fantastic trainers like Nick Canani and now Kirk Ziadie. I'm just sayin'.

[illinoisbred]

Many of us up here in Illinois are sincerely hoping Mr. Calabrese is very happy with his new residence in Florida.

[Striker]

Ziadie wins both ends of today's Daily Double(first 2 races).

The first race he wins with a horse he claimed out of his last race. Ziadie, before today, is a whopping 47% first off the claim.

In the second race he wins with a horse he claimed two races back. Of course in this horse's first race for Ziadie, he improved the horse's best Beyer by a mere 23 pts as the horse won by 11 lengths. Today, the horse drew off to win by open lengths again.

Ziadie is just 8 for 23 at Gulf, but will most assuredly pick those figures up.
It's amazing how Frank Calabrese can pick these fantastic trainers like Nick Canani and now Kirk Ziadie. I'm just sayin'.
Anybody could train for FCC and have comparable numbers. Slide any trainer you want to into that slot it will not matter. So what are the "constants" in this operation?

[Beachbabe]

Anybody could train for FCC and have comparable numbers. Slide any trainer you want to into that slot it will not matter. So what are the "constants" in this operation?

Oh, you're correct.
There was a guy named Faucheux (or something like that) and a trainer with a Spanish surname who had no stats at all, but took over for Canani last year for a few races and was around 40% with a limited amount of starts.

The constants are:
1) Huge improvement almost immediately after a claim.
2) Horses will garner multiple wins in this barn
3) Most will set new lifetime marks
4) Trainers will maintain a minimum of 30% win ratio.

[illinoisbred]

Ron Faucheux is currently winning at a 40% clip at Fair Grounds...sans Calabrese.

[Robert Fischer]

good job Ziadie :ThmbUp:

[Striker]

Oh, you're correct.
There was a guy named Faucheux (or something like that) and a trainer with a Spanish surname who had no stats at all, but took over for Canani last year for a few races and was around 40% with a limited amount of starts.

The constants are:
1) Huge improvement almost immediately after a claim.
2) Horses will garner multiple wins in this barn
3) Most will set new lifetime marks
4) Trainers will maintain a minimum of 30% win ratio.
Yep and what draws even more red flags to FCC is what happens when these horses or any horses that are claimed from him go into new hands? It's amazing that the horses usually end up not performing just as well at the same levels isn't it.

[magwell]

Kirt Ziadie is as good a horse trainer, Ive seen in the last few years.....IMHO.

[Robert Fischer]

guess the question is whether FC is using PEDs with his owners...

I don't like to call out an owner or trainer that I don't specifically have a strong opinion about.

That said in general - a lot of these guys are using PEDs.

On top of that certain owners that are "win factories"

money to claim decent horses when others drop
willing to drop and win
willing to drop off a win /or not raise
willing to drop off a claim / or not raise



with the purse structure at some tracks we are going to see the winners win even higher%, because purse money is often higher than claiming price.





all these excuses, but sure some are cheating and some are good at it.





like I said no comment on FC in particular

[Striker]

The answer on your 4 bullet points for FCC are YES multiplied by 4.

[Valuist]

Kirt Ziadie is as good a horse trainer, Ive seen in the last few years.....IMHO.

Wasn't he banned from Florida for a couple years?

As for FCC, can you imagine if he hired Ness? Would Ness become an over 50 percent trainer?

[Beachbabe]

guess the question is whether FC is using PEDs with his owners...

I don't like to call out an owner or trainer that I don't specifically have a strong opinion about.

That said in general - a lot of these guys are using PEDs.

On top of that certain owners that are "win factories"

money to claim decent horses when others drop
willing to drop and win
willing to drop off a win /or not raise
willing to drop off a claim / or not raise



with the purse structure at some tracks we are going to see the winners win even higher%, because purse money is often higher than claiming price.





all these excuses, but sure some are cheating and some are good at it.





like I said no comment on FC in particular


Majestic Express, the Ziadie horse who won the second at Gulf today, was claimed by him out of a conditioned 16k claimer. Ziadie next started him in a 50k starter allowance where he bettered his best Beyers to that point by 23 pts. This was no" drop after a claim" nor a "drop after a win".

[Striker]

Majestic Express, the Ziadie horse who won the second at Gulf today, was claimed by him out of a conditioned 16k claimer. Ziadie next started him in a 50k starter allowance where he bettered his best Beyers to that point by 23 pts. This was no" drop after a claim" nor a "drop after a win".
You are right, but what RF is talking about is what occurs in a higher % of the races with these win factories. FCC is known to drop horses all the time right after claims or at any time. You pretty much have to be a YES man to work for him as I would see him and Wayne Catalano going at it all the time around the paddock at Arlington after FCC lost a race.

[onefast99]

Majestic Express, the Ziadie horse who won the second at Gulf today, was claimed by him out of a conditioned 16k claimer. Ziadie next started him in a 50k starter allowance where he bettered his best Beyers to that point by 23 pts. This was no" drop after a claim" nor a "drop after a win".
As an owner this group is on the "DO NOT CLAIM FROM" list. As far as KZ goes I wouldn't let him feed my cat while I was on vacation.

[Valuist]

You are right, but what RF is talking about is what occurs in a higher % of the races with these win factories. FCC is known to drop horses all the time right after claims or at any time. You pretty much have to be a YES man to work for him as I would see him and Wayne Catalano going at it all the time around the paddock at Arlington after FCC lost a race.

You are exactly right. Calabrese not only will often drop off the claim, but loves to drop off a win. Years ago we didn't see that maneuver; now its become commonplace.

I have pretty much quit betting claiming races. Why bother playing guessing games with guys like Ziadie or Ness? There's plenty of maiden, allowance and stakes races to fill one's betting appetite.

[BIG49010]

As an owner this group is on the "DO NOT CLAIM FROM" list. As far as KZ goes I wouldn't let him feed my cat while I was on vacation.

I just wonder, if every trainer put Ness, Ziadie, Canani, etc.. on the "DO NOT CLAIM LIST" could these guys, with tracks limiting there stalls, get to a point where they can't operate and the horses they have get "Tapped Out" ?

[Robert Fischer]

Majestic Express, the Ziadie horse who won the second at Gulf today, was claimed by him out of a conditioned 16k claimer. Ziadie next started him in a 50k starter allowance where he bettered his best Beyers to that point by 23 pts. This was no" drop after a claim" nor a "drop after a win".

good example.
These are the type of "red flag" claims that have to be looked at.

My comments weren't meant to cover every move-up the barn may happen to have. I understand you have noticed specific things with this specific trainer. Some of the things I mentioned were geared to the general state of the game and how it is now more geared to these barns than ever.

As a fan/ lover of the sport, we should be suspicious. As a bettor we should be fine. When these high% barns move up in class we know they are usually not outclassed. They wouldn't be 30% if they took a lot of gambles with raise-ups. And we can see the crazy fact that running for $9k winners share on the turf = Majestic was 9/2. Claimed by Mr. Z., MOVED-UP to a race running for $21k winners share and the horse was 5/2!! Bettors weren't fooled - and shouldn't be. Trust me I'm not saying betting is all that matters! Pointing out how crazy this all is and that the public seems to expect these dramatic move-ups!:bang:

However I agree that the real point is that the horse went on to run a major improvement first time with the supertrainer and he did it in a style that has been typical of many move-ups. -Set the pace keep on going and "never" tire.
If I had a substance that caused a horse's blood to carry more oxygen - that is way to run him if you can - enter a route race - set the pace and run the others out of it.
Used to be it took a real good horse to do that.

Im rambling on, and running low on java. Point is we aren't that far apart on what we see. Wasn't trying to dismiss your observations, I notice them as well. Aside from the horses he(they) move-up dramatically, there are a LOT of things right now regarding purse, claiming price, conditions, and the economics differences of the winFactory barns that are all driving up % even more.

[Fastracehorse]

good example.
These are the type of "red flag" claims that have to be looked at.

My comments weren't meant to cover every move-up the barn may happen to have. I understand you have noticed specific things with this specific trainer. Some of the things I mentioned were geared to the general state of the game and how it is now more geared to these barns than ever.

As a fan/ lover of the sport, we should be suspicious. As a bettor we should be fine. When these high% barns move up in class we know they are usually not outclassed. They wouldn't be 30% if they took a lot of gambles with raise-ups. And we can see the crazy fact that running for $9k winners share on the turf = Majestic was 9/2. Claimed by Mr. Z., MOVED-UP to a race running for $21k winners share and the horse was 5/2!! Bettors weren't fooled - and shouldn't be. Trust me I'm not saying betting is all that matters! Pointing out how crazy this all is and that the public seems to expect these dramatic move-ups!:bang:

However I agree that the real point is that the horse went on to run a major improvement first time with the supertrainer and he did it in a style that has been typical of many move-ups. -Set the pace keep on going and "never" tire.
If I had a substance that caused a horse's blood to carry more oxygen - that is way to run him if you can - enter a route race - set the pace and run the others out of it.
Used to be it took a real good horse to do that.

Im rambling on, and running low on java. Point is we aren't that far apart on what we see. Wasn't trying to dismiss your observations, I notice them as well. Aside from the horses he(they) move-up dramatically, there are a LOT of things right now regarding purse, claiming price, conditions, and the economics differences of the winFactory barns that are all driving up % even more.

that's one good thing about these high % types - they can be over bet in races they have no business being the fave; like GP's 5th on grass

fffastt

[onefast99]

I just wonder, if every trainer put Ness, Ziadie, Canani, etc.. on the "DO NOT CLAIM LIST" could these guys, with tracks limiting there stalls, get to a point where they can't operate and the horses they have get "Tapped Out" ?
Actually the answer is no, just look at JC Guerrero at Parx it was a rarity if anyone claimed off of him for quite sometime. The owners end up getting the horses to Fingerlakes or to Mtnr and run them under trainers who are friends of a JC Guerrero type, some do well and others you never hear about again.

[Striker]

Can't find anything on Ziadie being suspended, but looking at the PPs for Gulfstream this week it appears that this relationship is done. So, FCC has gone to the bullpen and called in Gamaliel Vazquez, who used to train for Michael Gill, and has been ejected by at least one track that I know of.

[Howlet]

Kirk had Caymanas Ralph and Frank Carl had Frankie Breeze. Exemplary role models both.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Calabrese,_Sr.

[PICSIX]

Can't find anything on Ziadie being suspended, but looking at the PPs for Gulfstream this week it appears that this relationship is done. So, FCC has gone to the bullpen and called in Gamaliel Vazquez, who used to train for Michael Gill, and has been ejected by at least one track that I know of.

Rumor is Frank fired Ziadie.....haven't heard why :confused: :confused:

[Saratoga_Mike]

Kirk had Caymanas Ralph and Frank Carl had Frankie Breeze. Exemplary role models both.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Calabrese,_Sr.

Wrong FC - not related. FC, the horse owner, sued the Chicago Tribune over this very issue and prevailed.

[onefast99]

I just wonder, if every trainer put Ness, Ziadie, Canani, etc.. on the "DO NOT CLAIM LIST" could these guys, with tracks limiting there stalls, get to a point where they can't operate and the horses they have get "Tapped Out" ?
If you limit who can and can't run at your track you will eventually have 5 horse fields hopefully the machines that can detect cobalt and a few other now non-detectable PEDs will make there way to the USA!

[Beachbabe]

Can't find anything on Ziadie being suspended, but looking at the PPs for Gulfstream this week it appears that this relationship is done. So, FCC has gone to the bullpen and called in Gamaliel Vazquez, who used to train for Michael Gill, and has been ejected by at least one track that I know of.

No problem for Gamaliel. He's 1 for 1 with one more going in the 9th.

[BIG49010]

If you limit who can and can't run at your track you will eventually have 5 horse fields hopefully the machines that can detect cobalt and a few other now non-detectable PEDs will make there way to the USA!

I didn't say they couldn't run, I said if other trainers stop claiming off these guys, and they limit there stalls they would put the pressure on these guys.

FCL is like George Steinbrenner...

Catalano
Miller
Canani
Ramirez
Fauchenx
Ward
Rivelli
Ziadie
Vasquez

I can see why he fired him, after 40+ % win, this 22% crap just doesn't cut it:lol:

[WoxFan]

At some point, you would figure that FCC would be smart enough to fire himself and get out of the horse owning business.
What is the over/under for this new trainer? I give him 14 months - April 2015.

[Valuist]

Hyperbaric chambers do wonders.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Hyperbaric chambers do wonders.

Know someone who has used one - isn't as great as some think

[Not4Love]

Anyone know what happened to Zaidie?????

[PICSIX]

Anyone know what happened to Zaidie?????

Another rumor, he is out of the country.

What are you guys/gals in Florida hearing?

[lamboguy]

i've been selling horses to Red and Frank for years, they take the good with the bad. when you give them a price, they don't beat you down, when the horse doesn't pan out they don't complain either.

[greengorilla]

How about giving Frank a call Lambo if you know him so well, I would love to buy Strong Humor for 22k from him if he vets. I'll through u 2 k for your troubles.

[lamboguy]

How about giving Frank a call Lambo if you know him so well, I would love to buy Strong Humor for 22k from him if he vets. I'll through u 2 k for your troubles.do you really think that horse is worth $25,000? he will probably be in for less next time out.

[greengorilla]

I have buyers right now in LA that are seriously interested. Horse can win going 3/4 all day on the grass for fun.. He won the non 3L on dirt going 6 1/2. And hes a bettor horse on grass. Frank probably will want more like 40k if he can vet. Hes fast and boy is he nice.

[Stillriledup]

How about giving Frank a call Lambo if you know him so well, I would love to buy Strong Humor for 22k from him if he vets. I'll through u 2 k for your troubles.

Why would you want to buy a horse trained by Kirk Z, do you think your trainer can move him up?

[PaceAdvantage]

This board is not a big supporter of rumor and innuendo unless backed up with some kind of proof or the person writing about it isn't hiding behind a made up message board name.

Thus, some posts in this thread have been removed.

[Striker]

FCC says he fired him but Ziadie says he walked away. Nice try Kirk.


http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/83449/calabrese-splits-with-trainer-kirk-ziadie

[onefast99]

I didn't say they couldn't run, I said if other trainers stop claiming off these guys, and they limit there stalls they would put the pressure on these guys.

FCL is like George Steinbrenner...

Catalano
Miller
Canani
Ramirez
Fauchenx
Ward
Rivelli
Ziadie
Vasquez

I can see why he fired him, after 40+ % win, this 22% crap just doesn't cut it:lol:
Well said!

[onefast99]

Why would you want to buy a horse trained by Kirk Z, do you think your trainer can move him up?
The claiming game is as tough as it gets you have to have a real sharp eye to see anything that looks suspicious on a claimer and if it looks like a good deal you shake for the horse and hope you get him if he ran well or hope you don't get your pill picked if he finished dead last.

[SouthFlorida]

Nick Canani has been seen sitting with FCC the last 2 days at Gulfstream

[Stillriledup]

TIme for owners who patronize rules breakers to get demerits, accrue enough demerits and you get fined, suspended or kicked out of the game altogether.