Aqueduct Sunday Card

[David-LV]

I don't know why Aqueduct is even running today with the terrible card that they put together.
Higher purses do not equal more horses as they are now finding out.
Horse racing is on life support in NY right now.

________
David-LV

[Vinman]

I don't know why Aqueduct is even running today with the terrible card that they put together.
Higher purses do not equal more horses as they are now finding out.
Horse racing is on life support in NY right now.

________
David-LV

I read a quote recently, perhaps from here, that they could double the purses at Philly Park and the product would still "suck". Perhaps the same logic applies at AQU.

The track that is going to get my betting dollars is the one with the fullest fields and the fewest first time starters. Right now Delta Downs is looking pretty good.

Vinman

[cj]

I read a quote recently, perhaps from here, that they could double the purses at Philly Park and the product would still "suck". Perhaps the same logic applies at AQU.

The track that is going to get my betting dollars is the one with the fullest fields and the fewest first time starters. Right now Delta Downs is looking pretty good.

Vinman
Higher purses alone aren't going to do much. Why would someone leave Philly, or somewhere else with decent purses, to face stiffer competition and testing? Do you want to play at the 100,000 poker tournament against a bunch of dummies or the $150,000 tourney against all the sharps?

[tzipi]

Higher purses alone aren't going to do much. Why would someone leave Philly, or somewhere else with decent purses, to face stiffer competition and testing? Do you want to play at the 100,000 poker tournament against a bunch of dummies or the $150,000 tourney against all the sharps?

Perfect way to put it :ThmbUp:

[cj]

How many trainers in New York do you think are lowering day rates due to the extra purse money they are receiving, trying to get more horses? I'd put the over under at 0.5 and take the under.

At some point, and it is still early, NYRA has to find a way to get competitive fields that are worthy of the purses for which they are competing. If I were them, I'd start lobbying to race less if field sizes don't improve. Why run 45 races a week with an average of about 6 horses when you can run 27 and get 10 per race?

Why can't $10,000 female claimers run against $7,500 hundred dollar males, each with different claiming prices. Why can't conditioned claimers be combined, like NW2LT or NW16MO? There are ways to make fields better, but racing is stuck so badly in tradition there is zero innovation. Write better races and force trainers to fill them or they don't go, period.

This isn't unique to NRYA. Giving away all this money for the races being put on around the country is irresponsible. If you can't put out respectable fields, run less races. This isn't rocket science. I know a lot of this is mandated by state regulations, but regulations can be changed. I'm pretty sure I know which sides states will come down on if tracks fight the horsemen, and it won't be the horsemen, not now.

[nijinski]

This was on a NY Bred breeding fund site 2011. definately contributes to the problem.

The U.S. Thoroughbred population has been declining since 2008, when general economic conditions dissuaded many owners and breeders from bringing more horses into the world. Because of the horse shortage, tracks from coast to coast struggle to put on decent cards. Aqueduct on April 3 ran a nine-race program with no field larger than six horses. Golden Gate Fields last month carded 20 consecutive races with fields of seven or fewer entrants. As bettors steer away from weak products, a vicious cycle ensues. A track’s betting pools shrink, and the smaller pools in turn make the races even less attractive to big players. So they bet even less. One of the highest of U.S. high-rollers told me his wagering is down by 90 percent from his heyday.

[cj]

This was on a NY Bred breeding fund site 2011. definately contributes to the problem.

The U.S. Thoroughbred population has been declining since 2008, when general economic conditions dissuaded many owners and breeders from bringing more horses into the world. Because of the horse shortage, tracks from coast to coast struggle to put on decent cards. Aqueduct on April 3 ran a nine-race program with no field larger than six horses. Golden Gate Fields last month carded 20 consecutive races with fields of seven or fewer entrants. As bettors steer away from weak products, a vicious cycle ensues. A track’s betting pools shrink, and the smaller pools in turn make the races even less attractive to big players. So they bet even less. One of the highest of U.S. high-rollers told me his wagering is down by 90 percent from his heyday.

Exactly....less races and more innovation in race writing is needed.

[camourous]

Speaking of PARX, they raised their purses since getting the slots, and have the same crappy horses and jockeys who used to race for $11,000 now racing for $30,000..

[Vinman]

One obvious thing that's been done before that would certainly help the field size problem is purse bonuses for bigger fields. In this era of a smaller horse population, I'm surprised that this particular "envelope" isn't being pushed much harder by any track.

NYRA is now in a great position to be aggressive on this. They should start now. One shouldn't have to rely upon the Delta Downs of the world for 9 to 10 horse fields.

Vinman

[RXB]

This was on a NY Bred breeding fund site 2011. definately contributes to the problem.

The U.S. Thoroughbred population has been declining since 2008, when general economic conditions dissuaded many owners and breeders from bringing more horses into the world. Because of the horse shortage, tracks from coast to coast struggle to put on decent cards. Aqueduct on April 3 ran a nine-race program with no field larger than six horses. Golden Gate Fields last month carded 20 consecutive races with fields of seven or fewer entrants. As bettors steer away from weak products, a vicious cycle ensues. A track’s betting pools shrink, and the smaller pools in turn make the races even less attractive to big players. So they bet even less. One of the highest of U.S. high-rollers told me his wagering is down by 90 percent from his heyday.

Speaking of NY breeding funds... I can think of few things that are a bigger waste of money, a bigger political con than the huge purse subsidies and anti-competitive protections for in-state breeders in most racing jurisdictions.

[Pell Mell]

I don't know if it would help but I think they should do away with conditioned claimers. Go back to the way it was when there were less horses but the fields were full. Straight open claimers with only the weight penalty for recent wins.

They have broken the claiming ranks into so many divisions and sub-divisions I can't count them. All 500 of those 5G claimers on the grounds should be racing against each other rather than all the little niche races.

I guess it's to give everybody a better shot at winning...why don't they just go PC like they do with the kids...don't even keep score... everybody's a winner..

[Tom]

Stop racing Wed and Thursday.

Put a limit of the starter allowances - now more than one win under that condition.

[Tom]

Turned out to be a seller day - 53 horses ran, 6 races paid under $5, nothing over $8.30. and a holiday weekend, too.

Why bother?

[jeebus1083]

Higher purses alone aren't going to do much. Why would someone leave Philly, or somewhere else with decent purses, to face stiffer competition and testing? Do you want to play at the 100,000 poker tournament against a bunch of dummies or the $150,000 tourney against all the sharps?

We all have to remember, that there is a meet going on at Gulfstream (and Santa Anita) right now, and most major outfits are not going to give up a warm and sunny Florida and California winters to run over an unforgiving inner track in cold and brisk conditions at Aqueduct - purses be damned.

The fact of the matter is this: it is easier to train a horse down in Florida and California this time of the year than it is to train at Aqueduct, or any Northeastern track that is regularly affected by the rigors of winter weather. Sure, horses like cooler weather (they can breathe easier), but it's harder to get a horse warm when its environment is colder. You also have the "freeze/thaw" cycles that can reek havoc on the consistency of a racetrack surface. A questionable surface coupled with a horse that isn't 100% loose can be a recipe for ailments that will keep the horse in the barn. Most winters in the Northeast, we get buried with various amounts of snow, and one storm can interrupt a training/racing schedule enough to set a horse or an entire stable back. They may find a race, but often are not 100% ready. Aside from some rain, horsemen in FL can expect to have a consistent regimen in a more favorable climate. The rainy season in SoCal can lead to some interruptions, but the warmer temps are still favorable than 20-30 degrees in the Northeast.

Even if a trainer would rather grab the moneybags in NY, you still have to contend with your owners, and most of the traditional owners are not going to give up warm and sunny winters that easily, no matter how much purse money you throw at them.

IMO, the real test will come when Belmont opens at the end of April, when these outfits return from their winters and Keeneland stays.

[Rise Over Run]

You mention the difficulties of training/racing in a cold weather environment like it's something recent. I may be wrong, but adverse weather conditions have occurred in the NY area in the December-March timeframe since well before the beginning of recorded history. This product they serve up in NY has been getting worse and worse on an annual basis and is completely independent of any weather "issues". Every year I think it's hit rock bottom, another year comes along to take the cake.

[jeebus1083]

You mention the difficulties of training/racing in a cold weather environment like it's something recent. I may be wrong, but adverse weather conditions have occurred in the NY area in the December-March timeframe since well before the beginning of recorded history. This product they serve up in NY has been getting worse and worse on an annual basis and is completely independent of any weather "issues". Every year I think it's hit rock bottom, another year comes along to take the cake.

The winter product in NY has always been bottom shelf. Small-time owners and trainers have to play while the big cats are away. It keeps getting worse because the game has downsized big time over the past several seasons. If an owner has a horse worth a damn, they probably aren't going to do battle on a bi-weekly basis over the cold Inner Track. They are going to care for it the best way that they can, and that is in Florida. Of course, there are exceptions, but those are often very rare.

If horseplayers actually believed that Aqueduct's jackpot purses were going to "steal" the flights of "A" stock from Gulfstream and resurrect the winter Inner Track product, they were living a delusional dream.

[Mr Saratoga]

Well stated jeebus.

[jeebus1083]

And to CJ's point, most of the PRX horses are going to stay home, because the purses are "good enough" to compete where their trainers are not compelled to run against often "better" horses. For some trainers, you also have to compete with the drug issue. If you are a conspiracy theorist and believed that JCG's success at PRX came from a needle, all you have to do is compare his 2011 PRX numbers with his 2012 AQU numbers for evidence, and no other explanation or alibis will do.

[GARY Z]

Perhaps thois thought would eliminate the winter blues in the spirit
of a win-win-win for three tracks.

Perhaps both NYRA and Parx could create racing cards at all levels
(claiming /allowance/stakes) Wed-Friday afternoons at the
Meadowlands.

Purses could be combined, maybe have special awards at the end of the meet(Spring) for leading purse winners at the specific level
including trainder/owner awards.

This thought could create big fields, better wagering opportunities
at a neutral track, rejuvenate the Club Med aura.

I believe track attendance would be a non issue, and the tracks could actually reduce expenses for their respective facilites..

[JustRalph]

Slots have always been a false savior for racing. The tracks that got in early did well for a while, but now that slot money is everywhere, the game is back to square.

Closing at least a third of the tracks is the only way to make any appreciable gains. Closing half the tracks in the next 2 years would be even better.

I hardly look at the races anymore and have officially pretty much dropped the game from my weekly schedule.

Damn shame, I really used to love it.

[alhattab]

I don't know if it would help but I think they should do away with conditioned claimers. Go back to the way it was when there were less horses but the fields were full. Straight open claimers with only the weight penalty for recent wins.

They have broken the claiming ranks into so many divisions and sub-divisions I can't count them. All 500 of those 5G claimers on the grounds should be racing against each other rather than all the little niche races.

I guess it's to give everybody a better shot at winning...why don't they just go PC like they do with the kids...don't even keep score... everybody's a winner..

Good idea. The problem I think is that other tracks like Parx, Penn in winter and more in summer will run these conditioned claimers and lure barns away. So unless they collude to end conditions claimers they are here to stay.

I think realistically the only way the problem will be solved will be for the slots money to dry up at most tracks, and therefore let the natural selection process that should have occurred 5-8 years ago finally occur. The tracks have shown no ability to work together on cutting races/dates. Hell we all thought it was a win when Aqu and GP thought it made sense to coordinate post times!

[Robert Goren]

The problem is not slot money per se. It is the way they spend it. Throwing slot money at purses has done a lot of harm to the game. If you look at tracks that have been doing that for several years, you generally find a huge mess. Results never seem to matter to race tracks. Every track that gets a casino goes with same failed strategy. What the horse racing people don't seem to get is that unless they use the casino money to strengthen their game in a way that will make them competitive against the casino games, most horse racing gambler's dollars will end up in the casino. Sure there will be a few die hard that continue to bet the ponies, but those numbers will continue to shrink to the point where even with casino money horse racing stops being a viable business. The people who always say I am negative will now take their shots at me. That is fine. But the results of trying to saving horse racing by misusing casino money is not positive for Racinos that have been around for awhile. No matter how you slice it places like Penn National and Parx are a blight on the game.

[Robert Goren]

This business of saying that higher purses will draw more horses at anyplace other than a rock bottom level track is bull shit. There are trainers at almost every track begging for more stalls. If you want larger fields, build more barns so more horses can be housed at the race track.

[chico9166]

Aqueduct has become a complete and utter joke. Small fields, no value, chalk outcomes etc, etc. Heads should roll.

[Robert Fischer]

Aqueduct has become a complete and utter joke. Small fields, no value, chalk outcomes etc, etc. Heads should roll.

that bad ?

[David-LV]

that bad ?

Yes, most cards worse then bad, although it looks like they found a few extra horses for Sat. card , that is before scratches.

__________
David-LV