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precisionk
02-02-2012, 05:43 PM
I am interested in learning a bit more about how to do Pedigree handicapping or rather find resources about Sire's and Dam's. I would love to be able to have the ability to look at PP's and determine quickly for maiden races or other races, if I feel the horse has the bloodlines to get certain distances etc etc.

Anyone have any good resources for learning this as well as large resources of said sire and dam's?

Capper Al
02-02-2012, 08:48 PM
This is one of the toughest ones. I've read a few books on the subject and still can't remember who's who come race day.

Try these two articles from BRIS:

BRIS Pedigree Ratings F.A.Q. (http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/static.cgi?page=pedigreerate)
Using Pedigree Stats to Handicap (http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/static.cgi?page=pedigree)

CincyHorseplayer
02-02-2012, 09:09 PM
Precision I'm right there with you.After 15 years I'm starting to know some of the sires and dams but I know I need a better structural understanding of the subject.Here are a few from my to read list from last year and prices from Amazon;

Mike Helm-Pedigree Handicapping($9.70 + shipping)

Lauren Stitch-Pedigree Handicapping($2.99)

Ledbetter-The Body Language Of Horses($0.90)

Pell Mell
02-02-2012, 09:44 PM
This may sound kind of silly to some but I've done pretty good over the years using pedigrees to handicap. I mostly use pedigrees to determine what horses can get the classic distances.

When looking at pedigrees I don't look at who won what and when. I
don't pay too much attention to immediate sires and in fact, don't care too much who the sire is as long as he matches the mare.

Anyone can check stuff I've written and see I do ok with pedigree capping.

EvenSteven
02-02-2012, 09:52 PM
Thanks for the link

PaceAdvantage
02-03-2012, 02:57 AM
This may sound kind of silly to some but I've done pretty good over the years using pedigrees to handicap. I mostly use pedigrees to determine what horses can get the classic distances.Why would that sound silly? Most rational horseplayers realize there are many different roads to profit in this game.

turninforhome10
02-03-2012, 04:28 AM
The book that changed it for me was Great Breeders and their Methods by Hewitt. Very thoughtful historical look at the breeders who changed the breed. I must have read this thing a dozen times and always find something new. The Thoroughbred Heritage http://www.tbheritage.com/ is very good resource for learning historical sirelines and reines de course. This time of year with the new maidens, I like to use the Dam Production Index and follow those with top producing mama's.

precisionk
02-03-2012, 09:39 PM
Thanks for the links and resources. Looking to dig in this topic and hopefully get a beneficial edge that others may lack. If anyone has any more resources or info on this topic, feel free to put it here.

Pell Mell
02-05-2012, 10:09 AM
Why would that sound silly? Most rational horseplayers realize there are many different roads to profit in this game.

What I meant was that many would think I'm silly to think I'm able to handicap by pedigree by using a very simple method. Most of those guys that wrote books about the study of pedigrees go through all kinds of contortions and yet few do as well as I do. I can't write a book about it because it would only take up a few pages.

It's one thing to talk up a pedigree after the fact but I do it before the fact and that's why I get those huge winners.

I know there are some who check my writings but few will admit I do very well. My pedigree picks have probably made enough money already this year to last through the TC series. Just saying...

Dahoss9698
02-05-2012, 11:29 AM
What I meant was that many would think I'm silly to think I'm able to handicap by pedigree by using a very simple method. Most of those guys that wrote books about the study of pedigrees go through all kinds of contortions and yet few do as well as I do. I can't write a book about it because it would only take up a few pages.

It's one thing to talk up a pedigree after the fact but I do it before the fact and that's why I get those huge winners.

I know there are some who check my writings but few will admit I do very well. My pedigree picks have probably made enough money already this year to last through the TC series. Just saying...

You give out 4-6 horses a race and then thump your chest if one wins. Yeah....real revolutionary stuff.

That isn't handicapping. You're playing equine bingo.

Pell Mell
02-05-2012, 01:27 PM
You give out 4-6 horses a race and then thump your chest if one wins. Yeah....real revolutionary stuff.

That isn't handicapping. You're playing equine bingo.

Bullshit! I give 4 horses and 3 of the 4 run 1-2-3

Like yesterday in the Rb Lewis..I gave 4 and 2 of them ran 1-2 with the 44/1 on top of my top choice...you ain't never done anything like that...your true colors always show through...your green through and through..met a thousand like you in my life time..

There are people that could buy and sell you with their pocket change that love my stuff, so go sell your jealous rants to somebody that gives a shit!!

Dahoss9698
02-05-2012, 02:01 PM
Bullshit! I give 4 horses and 3 of the 4 run 1-2-3

Like yesterday in the Rb Lewis..I gave 4 and 2 of them ran 1-2 with the 44/1 on top of my top choice...you ain't never done anything like that...your true colors always show through...your green through and through..met a thousand like you in my life time..

There are people that could buy and sell you with their pocket change that love my stuff, so go sell your jealous rants to somebody that gives a shit!!

I gave out a $114 horse here last year. Only I do it with one per race and don't play bingo.

You give out 4 per race and then whine that no one will pay the $2.50 for your newsletter. Hilarious.

Pell Mell
02-05-2012, 02:12 PM
I gave out a $114 horse here last year. Only I do it with one per race and don't play bingo.

You give out 4 per race and then whine that no one will pay the $2.50 for your newsletter. Hilarious.

Maybe you don't like exotics especially ones with box car payoffs but a lot of people do...

The only thing hilarious is that you can't see that by your comments you show people what an ass you are.. :D

Dahoss9698
02-05-2012, 02:27 PM
Maybe you don't like exotics especially ones with box car payoffs but a lot of people do...

The only thing hilarious is that you can't see that by your comments you show people what an ass you are.. :D
If so many people do, you wouldn't be whining that people won't pay the $2.50 for them, right? If so many people liked your stuff, they'd be paying the money right?

Pell Mell
02-05-2012, 03:04 PM
If so many people do, you wouldn't be whining that people won't pay the $2.50 for them, right? If so many people liked your stuff, they'd be paying the money right?

you have a way of misinterpreting things...I don't care about 2 bucks..I was just needling a lot of those who thought 2 bucks was a lot of money, people like you..I actually send it for free to those who ask and don't act like a scum bag..

Dahoss9698
02-05-2012, 03:20 PM
you have a way of misinterpreting things...I don't care about 2 bucks..I was just needling a lot of those who thought 2 bucks was a lot of money, people like you..I actually send it for free to those who ask and don't act like a scum bag..

Sounds like a good business practice. I imagine needling potential customers is an excellent strategy.

Free sounds about right though.

Capper Al
02-05-2012, 03:24 PM
Do any of PA's vendors handle maidens well? If so, would they share a little strategy?

Pell Mell
02-05-2012, 03:33 PM
Sounds like a good business practice. I imagine needling potential customers is an excellent strategy.

Free sounds about right though.

Geez, I'm sorry..had I known you didn't have 2 nickles to rub together I may have offered it to you for free.. :(

Capper Al
02-05-2012, 03:40 PM
Geez, I'm sorry..had I known you didn't have 2 nickles to rub together I may have offered it to you for free.. :(

Only wanted to talk in theory overall. And you're right I didn't have two nickles to rub together-- but I do have an app of my own. We'll have to assume that there isn't such an app out there.

Dahoss9698
02-05-2012, 03:42 PM
Geez, I'm sorry..had I known you didn't have 2 nickles to rub together I may have offered it to you for free.. :(

I could always use more toilet paper.

Pell Mell
02-05-2012, 03:57 PM
I could always use more toilet paper.

There ain't enough toilet paper made to clean up a pile like you..

Pell Mell
02-05-2012, 03:59 PM
Only wanted to talk in theory overall. And you're right I didn't have two nickles to rub together-- but I do have an app of my own. We'll have to assume that there isn't such an app out there.

Sorry Al, I wasn't replying to you..

PaceAdvantage
02-05-2012, 05:48 PM
Sorry Al, I wasn't replying to you..You really ought to stop replying altogether...

I mean seriously...this is YOUR REPLY to Dahoss' initial reply...

Bullshit! I give 4 horses and 3 of the 4 run 1-2-3

Like yesterday in the Rb Lewis..I gave 4 and 2 of them ran 1-2 with the 44/1 on top of my top choice...you ain't never done anything like that...your true colors always show through...your green through and through..met a thousand like you in my life time..

There are people that could buy and sell you with their pocket change that love my stuff, so go sell your jealous rants to somebody that gives a shit!!Your above belligerent reply was to this:

You give out 4-6 horses a race and then thump your chest if one wins. Yeah....real revolutionary stuff.

That isn't handicapping. You're playing equine bingo.What was so offensive about Dahoss' opinion that you had to come back at him with such anger and venom? You're way out there man...wound tighter than a pissed off rattlesnake...

lamboguy
02-05-2012, 05:55 PM
i have no clue how to handicap horses, i would like to learn the pedigree method

Capper Al
02-05-2012, 06:27 PM
i have no clue how to handicap horses, i would like to learn the pedigree method

Of the top of my head, the guy that developed the pedigree numbers for the DRF wrote a book on the subject. I can't remember the book's title. You might want to search the DRF website or the Gambler's Book Club.

thaskalos
02-05-2012, 06:48 PM
I believe it was called "Mudders and Turfers".

lamboguy
02-05-2012, 06:50 PM
thank you, i am going to have to study it and learn the methodolgy behind pedigree handicapping.

thaskalos
02-05-2012, 06:55 PM
Good luck...

BIG49010
02-05-2012, 07:00 PM
A nice feature of Equibase is you can put in a horse name, and then look at the race record of the dam. If they look rather productive, you can look at the charts for there wins for keys to weather the horse will be in the correct spot.

Pell Mell
02-05-2012, 07:05 PM
You really ought to stop replying altogether...

I mean seriously...this is YOUR REPLY to Dahoss' initial reply...

Your above belligerent reply was to this:

What was so offensive about Dahoss' opinion that you had to come back at him with such anger and venom? You're way out there man...wound tighter than a pissed off rattlesnake...

"You give out 4-6 horses a race and then thump your chest if one wins. Yeah....real revolutionary stuff.

That isn't handicapping. You're playing equine bingo."

That was his initial post. So he was saying that I was stabbing by giving 4 horses and playing bingo.

So I'll say it again, either he can't read or likes to poke his finger in light sockets to see if they are turned on.
He is on me every time I post something and I don't need his ignorant ass.
Maybe he's use to giving people shit and getting nothing back but it doesn't work that way with me.

PaceAdvantage
02-05-2012, 08:24 PM
Maybe he's use to giving people shit and getting nothing back but it doesn't work that way with me.How come you don't post picks here anymore?

Dahoss9698
02-05-2012, 08:28 PM
I read fine. I read a guy giving out 4-6 horses a race and then running here to promote himself if something hits. Congrats.

I'm certainly not on everything you post. I don't believe we have conversed in weeks. The truth is you like to give it, but anytime someone gives it back you run to your blog to whine about it.

Call me crazy, but someone so successful wouldn't need to peddle a newsletter for $2.50.

cj
02-05-2012, 09:17 PM
How come you don't post picks here anymore?

I imagine because they were downright embarrassing.

duncan04
02-06-2012, 01:14 AM
I read fine. I read a guy giving out 4-6 horses a race and then running here to promote himself if something hits. Congrats.

I'm certainly not on everything you post. I don't believe we have conversed in weeks. The truth is you like to give it, but anytime someone gives it back you run to your blog to whine about it.

Call me crazy, but someone so successful wouldn't need to peddle a newsletter for $2.50.

Couldn't agree more. Got to love those who pick 4 horses and when the 4th listed wins boom! I gave you the winner! :rolleyes: :D I got money but wouldn't pay for that crap! Give me a break!

Tom
02-06-2012, 08:42 AM
breedingwinners.com

GatetoWire
02-07-2012, 09:51 PM
Check out Lauren Stich's Pedigree Handicapping book.
She also does some work for the Grade One Racing website.

I would also recommend checking out Jim Mazur's Progressive Handicapping products www.proghandicapping.com
Mazur produces a yearly sire ratings book that is very useful.

lamboguy
02-07-2012, 10:13 PM
Couldn't agree more. Got to love those who pick 4 horses and when the 4th listed wins boom! I gave you the winner! :rolleyes: :D I got money but wouldn't pay for that crap! Give me a break!there are people that post here that have 4 picks every race on the board, and they do have lots of winners. i couldn't pick a winner if you gave me 7 horses to pick in an 8 horse field, so finding a winner with 4 shots isn't that bad!

BIG49010
02-07-2012, 11:11 PM
Check out Lauren Stich's Pedigree Handicapping book.
She also does some work for the Grade One Racing website.

I would also recommend checking out Jim Mazur's Progressive Handicapping products www.proghandicapping.com (http://www.proghandicapping.com)
Mazur produces a yearly sire ratings book that is very useful.

I didn't know Jim did Pedigree info, thanks for your input on a very screwed up thread!

turninforhome10
02-08-2012, 06:49 AM
First thing to look at first is who bought and where at and how much?
Horses kept by big name outfits from high producing dams are always considered.
Look for owner-trainers of good reputation for finding quality flesh. Holledorfer comes to mind. Look at who bred the grandam and how we got to now. Was the family held in high regard as evidenced by stallion selection? Were the breeders sellers or racers? Was this a horse born to sell or born to run? Did the trainers have the relatives and might lean them the way of their kin with respect to running? Is their a name in the pedigree that leans toward a surface bias?
Most of the stallion data is available free at Bris. Twinspres Express also shows the dam production which garned me a nice 3-1 shot at Houston the other night.

iceknight
02-08-2012, 11:04 PM
You really ought to stop replying altogether...

I mean seriously...this is YOUR REPLY to Dahoss' initial reply...

Your above belligerent reply was to this:

What was so offensive about Dahoss' opinion that you had to come back at him with such anger and venom? You're way out there man...wound tighter than a pissed off rattlesnake...

haha I think you need to chill out... some of your phrases show that you are the one that is getting offended by reactions at Dahoss.. oh wait.. are DaHoss and you the same person??

Dahoss's "opinion" was quite unwarranted. he does a lot of personal attacks.. If he dishes it out, he should be able to take it back.. funny world it is.

iceknight
02-08-2012, 11:09 PM
I read fine. I read a guy giving out 4-6 horses a race and then running here to promote himself if something hits. Congrats.

I'm certainly not on everything you post. I don't believe we have conversed in weeks. The truth is you like to give it, but anytime someone gives it back you run to your blog to whine about it.

Call me crazy, but someone so successful wouldn't need to peddle a newsletter for $2.50.
At least he is complaining on "his blog".. You are usually complaining on this blog.. which is not yours.. unless. judging by PA's defense of you with regularity, I would have to guess that you are PA. LOL
THen it just seems like a Yahoo Stock Message board where 1 guy pumps his posts with ten other aliases..!

I am not sure if anyone was "giving it back to him". In this thread, I noticed that you Dahoss started the first personal attacks.. Unless you hold longstanding grudges from other threads.. kinda like Israel-Palestine conflict? I would never know who started the animosity first .. you or casino or pell mell or .. (Add names here)..

I feel a lot of people of this board could focus more on data and picking winners than fighting over opinions. Big deal man, You gotta get the Pace Advantage.. no point in fighting like Borel and Castellano ! ding.

iceknight
02-08-2012, 11:14 PM
"
Maybe he's use to giving people shit and getting nothing back but it doesn't work that way with me.

This is a hilarious thread.. I think Dahoss thinks you are Casino.. .. please check our DaHoss vs Casino threads to understand how Dahoss works..

Actually, it is quite entertaining for most of us, it would be more fun if DaHoss actually posts his location (he doesn't because either he is imaginary or he is ashamed of the town he lives in -- perhaps Sandusky, MI ?:lol: )

PaceAdvantage
02-08-2012, 11:24 PM
haha I think you need to chill out... some of your phrases show that you are the one that is getting offended by reactions at Dahoss.. oh wait.. are DaHoss and you the same person??

Dahoss's "opinion" was quite unwarranted. he does a lot of personal attacks.. If he dishes it out, he should be able to take it back.. funny world it is.Clueless doesn't even begin to fully encompass this hilarity.

Dahoss9698
02-09-2012, 12:18 AM
Must be a full moon....or someone had a beer and went hog wild posting afterwards. Either way, funny stuff.

Cardus
02-09-2012, 02:03 AM
haha I think you need to chill out... some of your phrases show that you are the one that is getting offended by reactions at Dahoss.. oh wait.. are DaHoss and you the same person??

Dahoss's "opinion" was quite unwarranted. he does a lot of personal attacks.. If he dishes it out, he should be able to take it back.. funny world it is.

Calling out a guy who gives out multiple horses in his selections each race and trumpets them when one wins is not a "personal attack". Only the thin-skinned think this way.

And, if "fighting over opinions" is to be discouraged, then you should shut down Internet Land.

Tom
02-09-2012, 10:31 AM
Calling out a guy who gives out multiple horses in his selections each race and trumpets them when one wins is not a "personal attack".



Not exactly on-topic either.

Dahoss9698
02-09-2012, 12:46 PM
Not exactly on-topic either.

Almost every thread in the history of this board goes off topic at some point. For example, your post wasn't on topic, neither was the one from Cardus, Iceknight...etc.

However, take a look back to this thread, page 3,4 and 5 specifically.
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86786&page=4&pp=15


Change your mind a little?

Tom
02-09-2012, 01:43 PM
Why would I change my mind?
That thread makes this one on topic?
No reply is required - we all know your agenda here.

Dahoss9698
02-09-2012, 01:57 PM
Why would I change my mind?
That thread makes this one on topic?
No reply is required - we all know your agenda here.

You're right. There's an agenda here, but it has nothing to do with me. I've done nothing wrong and the moderators seem to agree. Take it up with them if you have an issue (among your many others.)

Tom
02-09-2012, 02:29 PM
Don't disappear again,now.

Dahoss9698
02-09-2012, 02:43 PM
Like I said, there's an agenda here, but it's not on my end.

EOC

Tom
02-09-2012, 02:55 PM
I forgot, first the victim card, then the disappearing act.
My bad.

Dahoss9698
02-09-2012, 03:20 PM
You sure told me.

Instead of being a hit and (slowly) run artist, explain yourself. What is my agenda? Address my point, PA didn't seem to think I did anything wrong, so tell him what it is I'm wrong about.

If you just want to needle me because you're harboring some years long grudge, that's cool. I can take it and won't run to the mods like some. But for someone so concerned with keeping on topic (when it's convenient) you sure have ventured off course here.

Tom
02-09-2012, 03:41 PM
Getting that poor me routine polished, I see.
Good for you.

Dahoss9698
02-09-2012, 04:59 PM
I'll ask again, what is my agenda and what have I done in this thread that you object to?

Simple questions.

iceknight
02-09-2012, 08:05 PM
Calling out a guy who gives out multiple horses in his selections each race and trumpets them when one wins is not a "personal attack". Only the thin-skinned think this way.

And, if "fighting over opinions" is to be discouraged, then you should shut down Internet Land.

If someone gives 4 selections and you work on it further to pick 1 winner, good for you.

If not, do you expect to be spoon fed with a single winner... I am still surprised that this forum seems to tilt slightly more toward boasting and ego, rather than on picking winners, making money and having fun. Note that PA was the one "discouraging" fighting (back) over Dahoss's opinions.

iceknight
02-09-2012, 08:10 PM
You're right. There's an agenda here, but it has nothing to do with me. I've done nothing wrong and the moderators seem to agree. Take it up with them if you have an issue (among your many others.)


Here is something "relevant" to the thread's topic (and to ruffle feathers more).

a) .Dahoss's pedigree is definitely from some Angry rooster clan.

b) To quote Dahoss " I've done nothing wrong and the moderators seem to agree"..

The "moderators".. are "law enforcers" on the board, they are not the "jury". So yeah, they can kick someone off but they can't change my opinion that you seem to pick fights on purpose and Initiate personal attacks a lot of times.

Anyways, I am going for some more beers now.. so maybe I will post a few later :lol:

Dahoss9698
02-09-2012, 08:17 PM
Guess I got told again.

:(

thaskalos
02-09-2012, 08:27 PM
Guess I got told again.

:(
I see a kinder, gentler Dahoss this year...

Was this a New Year's resolution of yours? :)

Cardus
02-09-2012, 11:50 PM
It's too bad that there are people on here who post as if their mentality is "I can be a buffoon, but don't you call me out on being a buffoon." And then there are those posters' enablers.

There is nothing unreasonable about calling out someone for offering multiple selections in a race and watching that person trumpet his picks as successful if one of those horses wins.

Those who play "you must be angry" card simply due to disagreement seem unreasonable to me. Those are the people who need to get a grip... and a thicker skin.

Cardus
02-09-2012, 11:56 PM
Not exactly on-topic either.

Are you kidding, Tom?

Not one of your posts deviated from the main, so to speak? Not one?

PaceAdvantage
02-10-2012, 02:59 AM
Time to close this thread. Not only is it way off topic, but it has become completely non-productive.