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pktruckdriver
02-02-2012, 03:01 PM
What book or books best deals with the emotions of horse betting, best.

We all know you must have nerves of steel and discipline up the ying yang, but most important of all never let it get emotional, or personal .

Psychology Of Winning, Doc Sartin

What else ??



patrick

Dark Horse
02-02-2012, 03:29 PM
Deep breathing during the half hour between races?

I told my wife recently that if I were to die prematurely it would be from a heart attack watching a horse race.

DJofSD
02-02-2012, 03:36 PM
Doc offered a number of different approaches to the psychological side of the game.

There's no one way to manage emotions. You have to find what works for you.

What part of the process do you struggle with the most?

CincyHorseplayer
02-02-2012, 03:54 PM
Read all the chapters of all the handicapping books you own that directly address this.And keep an ongoing notebook of horse related stuff.I am far from a finished product in this game but this has evolved me bigtime.

thaskalos
02-02-2012, 04:14 PM
You don't learn self-control from a book. You learn it only from long, painful, hands-on experience...if you are lucky.

Some never learn it at all...

It's what separates the men from the boys...

Dave Schwartz
02-02-2012, 05:06 PM
I told my wife recently that if I were to die prematurely it would be from a heart attack watching a horse race.

:ThmbUp:

And I can only think of one better way to die.

JBmadera
02-02-2012, 07:47 PM
Take a look at Trading in the Zone by Douglas.

wonatthewire1
02-02-2012, 08:11 PM
Control Stress - Paul McKenna

(all of his stuff is really good) comes with a hypnosis cd which is really good too

You might like his confidence book too

Robert Goren
02-02-2012, 08:13 PM
The Mental Game of Poker: Proven Strategies for Improving Tilt Control, Confidence, Motivation, Coping with Variance, and more by Jared Tendler and Barry Carter deals similar mental problems in Poker. A word of warning, It reads like a text book but it may be of some help if self discipline is your problem and not self control. If self control is your problem, then you need to stop gambling period.

CincyHorseplayer
02-02-2012, 08:16 PM
The Mental Game of Poker: Proven Strategies for Improving Tilt Control, Confidence, Motivation, Coping with Variance, and more by Jared Tendler and Barry Carter deals similar mental problems in Poker. A word of warning, It reads like a text book but it may be of some help if self discipline is your problem and not self control. If self control is your problem, then you need to stop gambling period.

Ever read a book by Immanuel Kant?Can't be worse than that!

LottaKash
02-02-2012, 08:20 PM
:ThmbUp:

And I can only think of one better way to die.

With your "bootz" on, Dave ?

bet,

Robert Goren
02-02-2012, 08:25 PM
Ever read a book by Immanuel Kant?Can't be worse than that!Yes and you are right. Kant is unreadable. The Mental Game of Poker is not that bad, but is not a fluff piece either. Just thought I would warn everyone.

pktruckdriver
02-02-2012, 08:42 PM
Thanks Guys

I found alot here from 1 article, and was wondering if investing is any different than gambling, you decide..


Investors are risk-averse, while gamblers are risk-seekers.

Investing is a continuous process; gambling is an immediate event or series of
events.

Investing is the ownership of something tangible; gambling isn't.

Investing is based on skill and requires the use of a system based on research, while gambling is based on luck and emotions.

Investing - "Any activity in which money is put at risk for the purpose of making a profit, and which is characterized by some or most of the following (in approximately descending order of importance): sufficient research has been conducted; the odds are favorable; the behavior is risk-averse; a systematic approach is being taken; emotions such as greed and fear play no role; the activity is ongoing and done as part of a long-term plan; the activity is not motivated solely by entertainment or compulsion; ownership of something tangible is involved; a net positive economic effect results."


Gambling - "Any activity in which money is put at risk for the purpose of making a profit, and which is characterized by some or most of the following (in approximately descending order of importance): little or no research has been conducted; the odds are unfavorable; the behavior is risk-seeking; an unsystematic approach is being taken; emotions such as greed and fear play a role; the activity is a discrete event or series of discrete events not done as part of a long-term plan; the activity is significantly motivated by entertainment or compulsion; ownership of something tangible is not involved; no net economic effect results."


by Tom Murcko, CEO, InvestorGuide.com
Credit to Tom

I guess being an Investor would be okay as it takes the emotion out of it, lost of study and research is done thru extensive data and programs, so I fit the defintion, just leave the emotions at the door and don't look back, move forward with confidence and conviction, and thru proper study and research and planning , then winning is the only option, this works for me, cool.

A few saying's before I go...

Remember that great love and great achievements involve great risk.

Believe you can and you're half way there ~ Theodore Roosevelt

" Whatever happens, just relax and manage to make a smile. Life is not a problem to be solved but a gift to be enjoyed. Make everyday your best day!"

patrick

CincyHorseplayer
02-02-2012, 08:50 PM
Yes and you are right. Kant is unreadable. The Mental Game of Poker is not that bad, but is not a fluff piece either. Just thought I would warn everyone.

I'll read it RG.Anything within the solar system of what were into.I like difficult reads.Some of the Jungian and Sartre stuff is painful to read but worth the effort.

DJofSD
02-03-2012, 10:31 AM
Patrick,

Did you know that when Doc orginally started his efforts that led to PIRCO, he was working with losing gamblers some of which were truck drivers?

If you have used the access to the scanned copies of the "Follow Up" found at another web site, you have access to a gold mine. I'm not saying it is concise or easily digested but like mining for gold, there's an occasional nugget that makes it worth the effort.

One of the core methods taught was keeping a record of each 20 race cycle. Each race you bet two horses, $6 on the shorter odds and $4 on the longer (and, back then, with full fields you usually had odds that would allow such wagers.) At the end of each 20 race cycle, you were to send in the stat sheet to Doc. The goal was to get 65% winners, that is, 13 of the 20 races where you placed a wager, you had the winner.

Dutching two horses to win will certainly bring out the nay sayers because it is not optimal as far as they are concerned. But, that is not the point of the exercise. If you can apply yourself and to do so in a consistent manner so that you can achieve that 65% goal time after time, you are well on your way to becoming a winner. And, you will have obtained the inner knowing it can be done and you can do it. Confidence is a cure for a lot of the fear and uncertainity surrounding betting horses.

One technique that has benefits beyond betting the races is meditation. Learning to empty your mind is a way to get a handle on all of those furtive thoughts that distract and introduce doubt. There are plenty of resources to aid in learning the skill. One is a book by Wayne Dyer. I'm not sure if this book (http://www.amazon.com/dp/140190131X/ref%3Dasc_df_140190131X1737711/%3Ftag%3Daskcom05el-20%26creative%3D394997%26creativeASIN%3D140190131X %26linkCode%3Dasn) is the one I have in my collective, but, I believe it is -- it has a CD.

Good luck,

DJ

turninforhome10
02-03-2012, 11:19 AM
One technique that has benefits beyond betting the races is meditation. Learning to empty your mind is a way to get a handle on all of those furtive thoughts that distract and introduce doubt. There are plenty of resources to aid in learning the skill. One is a book by Wayne Dyer. I'm not sure if this book is the one I have in my collective, but, I believe it is -- it has a CD.

Zen Mind Beginning Mind by Suzuki is very good too. Learned to treat the game as whole rather than individual plays, meaning that one bad ticket should not be a reason to scrap a whole mindset. Follow the path and the path will answer your questions if you are in tune to your methods. I enjoy his commentary on the mind being a garden and as gardeners we must treat the problems as weeds that can be pulled and used for compost rather than a mind full of weeds causing our flower to not bloom. Also compares the mind to an ocean, just a tsunami can tower above the ocean eventually it will have to come to shore and will always end its movement by being gentle and turning back to the ocean.
All our problems are for us to better ourselves, not punishment for being bad. We reap what we sow, and as gardeners if we deal with the problems before they take over our garden, we can reap a full harvest later. I am a big fan of Zen Buddhism in the way it looks at our problems as being a chance to make a better future. Stay on the path.

Tom
02-03-2012, 01:53 PM
I have a cassette tape with the alpha sound on it - I play that when I handicap. When I am away from the tape, I have a technique to use - that I have practiced and mastered - I can enter alpha by pressing my thumbs against my first two fingers and mentally visualizing my alpha place. Bert Mayne taught this course back in the day...Silva Mind Control. Excellent stuff.
Worked great on bad airline flights, too.

DJofSD
02-03-2012, 02:44 PM
I forgot about Doc's teaching of Silva Mind control. Good job!

Doc had a number of classes that used operant conditioning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning) which is what it sounds like you employ, Tom, when you touch your thumb to your two fingers.

Another technique taught by one of the teaching members was an avoidence operant method using a rubber band on the wrist.

All good stuff and whatever works for you, use it. If it doesn't then don't worry about it. Find what works and adopt it.

pktruckdriver
02-03-2012, 02:47 PM
I have a cassette tape with the alpha sound on it - I play that when I handicap. When I am away from the tape, I have a technique to use - that I have practiced and mastered - I can enter alpha by pressing my thumbs against my first two fingers and mentally visualizing my alpha place. Bert Mayne taught this course back in the day...Silva Mind Control. Excellent stuff.
Worked great on bad airline flights, too.

Wow, Tom you always amaze me, who'd thunk it, Bert Mayne, Dr Wayne Dyer, John Kabat-Zinn's, "Wherever You go, There you are," , then this blog I found, http://zenhabits.net/meditation-for-beginners-20-practical-tips-for-quieting-the-mind/ (http://zenhabits.net/meditation-for-beginners-20-practical-tips-for-quieting-the-mind/), but for the beginner totally new to this , what is suggested.

Audio tapes or videos being the media of choice, as reading books are not my specialty, yet I do read them, but listening to them is easier for me, this from my trucking days, listening to tapes driving down the road for 10+ hours a day. Nightingale-Cognat, will give ne what i need but with so many different things to choose from where does one begin, anyone got some old copies they no longer use, just an economical thought on my part, but thanks for your replies.

patrick

DJofSD
02-03-2012, 02:53 PM
Point #18 is important, othewise, you'll fall asleep!

maddog42
02-03-2012, 03:01 PM
:ThmbUp:

And I can only think of one better way to die.
Maybe I am getting old, but the thrill of a 25-1 shot that you have 10 bucks on barreling wide around the turn and taking the lead coming down the stretch might be better than sex. Very close call. The 25-1 shot is less likely to kill me than a 25 year old girl.

DJofSD
02-03-2012, 03:09 PM
What's the odds of getting a 25 year old female into bed? Greater than 25:1?

Which reminds me of a joke.....

Dave Schwartz
02-03-2012, 03:39 PM
Maybe I am getting old, but the thrill of a 25-1 shot that you have 10 bucks on barreling wide around the turn and taking the lead coming down the stretch might be better than sex. Very close call. The 25-1 shot is less likely to kill me than a 25 year old girl.

I used to say that sex was better than a $30 horse. Now I say $50 horse.

maddog42
02-03-2012, 03:44 PM
Patrick,

Did you know that when Doc orginally started his efforts that led to PIRCO, he was working with losing gamblers some of which were truck drivers?

If you have used the access to the scanned copies of the "Follow Up" found at another web site, you have access to a gold mine. I'm not saying it is concise or easily digested but like mining for gold, there's an occasional nugget that makes it worth the effort.

One of the core methods taught was keeping a record of each 20 race cycle. Each race you bet two horses, $6 on the shorter odds and $4 on the longer (and, back then, with full fields you usually had odds that would allow such wagers.) At the end of each 20 race cycle, you were to send in the stat sheet to Doc. The goal was to get 65% winners, that is, 13 of the 20 races where you placed a wager, you had the winner.

Dutching two horses to win will certainly bring out the nay sayers because it is not optimal as far as they are concerned. But, that is not the point of the exercise. If you can apply yourself and to do so in a consistent manner so that you can achieve that 65% goal time after time, you are well on your way to becoming a winner. And, you will have obtained the inner knowing it can be done and you can do it. Confidence is a cure for a lot of the fear and uncertainity surrounding betting horses.

One technique that has benefits beyond betting the races is meditation. Learning to empty your mind is a way to get a handle on all of those furtive thoughts that distract and introduce doubt. There are plenty of resources to aid in learning the skill. One is a book by Wayne Dyer. I'm not sure if this book (http://www.amazon.com/dp/140190131X/ref%3Dasc_df_140190131X1737711/%3Ftag%3Daskcom05el-20%26creative%3D394997%26creativeASIN%3D140190131X %26linkCode%3Dasn) is the one I have in my collective, but, I believe it is -- it has a CD.

Good luck,

DJ
DJOFSD Let me respectfully disagree:
While I heartily endorse betting 2 horses on some races, you had better know where your cut-off is. Steve Fierro in his marvelous book The 4 Quarters of Horse Investing said his cutoff was 8-1 on both horses. That is both horses needed to be above 8-1 to make a profit!!! This was reflected in my own research on my own betting habits. My own cutoffs are in the 5-1 or 6-1
range to bet 2 horses, and that is to just break even. As a former student of Doc and Bradshaw, and one who learned a great deal from these men, let me say: I never found anyone in the Sartin group that could convince me they could hit 65% LONG TERM betting 2 horses to win. I know this sounds like heresy, and I really respect the Sartin guys. I went to 3 seminars and can be heard on at least one seminar tape being a "yeah butter". Jim hated "yeah but". No one ever convinced me they could hit 65% long term. I have had great runs where I would hit 80% and even hit 10 or 11 in a row before, but I never had a 100 race cycle that I hit 65%. I have thrown down the gauntlet,
and let anyone who wants to try this for 100 races, let him publicly post his Picks on this forum for 100 races.
Stick with the Overlays PK.
DJofSD let me again apologize for disagreeing in a somehwat rude manner.

DJofSD
02-03-2012, 03:55 PM
You know, some times, you just can make book.

Fine. Forget I brought up dutching let alone having a 65% hit rate.

You tell Patrick how to get over the hump and deal with the psychological aspects of a very tough game.

maddog42
02-03-2012, 04:06 PM
You know, some times, you just can make book.

Fine. Forget I brought up dutching let alone having a 65% hit rate.

You tell Patrick how to get over the hump and deal with the psychological aspects of a very tough game.

Dutching is a very good thing, and I did tell him. Be very selective. This last fall
I had a 200 race cycle where I lost only 3%. That may not sound like much, but I am being honest with you. I don't have all the answers and in general I think you gave him good advice. Let me apologize one more time. I was respectfully disagreeing with you, on a minor point.

maddog42
02-03-2012, 04:33 PM
What's the odds of getting a 25 year old female into bed? Greater than 25:1?

Which reminds me of a joke.....

Without using money, probably 1000-1.

wonatthewire1
02-03-2012, 08:37 PM
I have a cassette tape with the alpha sound on it - I play that when I handicap. When I am away from the tape, I have a technique to use - that I have practiced and mastered - I can enter alpha by pressing my thumbs against my first two fingers and mentally visualizing my alpha place. Bert Mayne taught this course back in the day...Silva Mind Control. Excellent stuff.
Worked great on bad airline flights, too.


Same ideas (setting up anchors) in the McKenna stuff mentioned earlier in the thread. Very helpful stuff
I'll have to check out the Mayne stuff

raybo
02-06-2012, 08:30 PM
DJOFSD Let me respectfully disagree:
While I heartily endorse betting 2 horses on some races, you had better know where your cut-off is. Steve Fierro in his marvelous book The 4 Quarters of Horse Investing said his cutoff was 8-1 on both horses. That is both horses needed to be above 8-1 to make a profit!!! This was reflected in my own research on my own betting habits. My own cutoffs are in the 5-1 or 6-1
range to bet 2 horses, and that is to just break even. As a former student of Doc and Bradshaw, and one who learned a great deal from these men, let me say: I never found anyone in the Sartin group that could convince me they could hit 65% LONG TERM betting 2 horses to win. I know this sounds like heresy, and I really respect the Sartin guys. I went to 3 seminars and can be heard on at least one seminar tape being a "yeah butter". Jim hated "yeah but". No one ever convinced me they could hit 65% long term. I have had great runs where I would hit 80% and even hit 10 or 11 in a row before, but I never had a 100 race cycle that I hit 65%. I have thrown down the gauntlet,
and let anyone who wants to try this for 100 races, let him publicly post his Picks on this forum for 100 races.
Stick with the Overlays PK.
DJofSD let me again apologize for disagreeing in a somehwat rude manner.

Post what - 100 races where your hit rate is 65% with 2 picks and made a profit, or 100 races where you bet 2 horses and made a profit (what about betting up to 3 horses at 3/1 or higher, nowhere near 65% hits, while making a profit)?

raybo
02-06-2012, 08:52 PM
Actually, I can post one of 192 races, up to 3 win bets per race, no where near 65% hit rate, betting only picks that are 3/1 or higher, and a net ROI of 1.62, if PA oks it and increases the attachment size to 40KB.

Handiman
02-06-2012, 10:14 PM
$30 or $50 I don't think matters Dave, I'm pretty sure you aren't suppose to have sex with a horse....:lol:


Handi:)

Dave Schwartz
02-06-2012, 10:20 PM
LOL - I didn't say "Sex with a $50 horse" I said "a $50 horse."

On the other hand... remember the thread about the vet who's been molesting the horse.

mostpost
02-07-2012, 12:40 AM
I have a cassette tape with the alpha sound on it - I play that when I handicap. When I am away from the tape, I have a technique to use - that I have practiced and mastered - I can enter alpha by pressing my thumbs against my first two fingers and mentally visualizing my alpha place. Bert Mayne taught this course back in the day...Silva Mind Control. Excellent stuff.
Worked great on bad airline flights, too.

it's called going to your level, right? I took Jose's course many, many years ago.
I'm not sure they do the in person training anymore, but they do have a website and recorded sessions. Silva Mind Control would be a good thing to fall back on when you are driving me crazy in off-topic. :D

Handiman
02-07-2012, 02:11 AM
Oh I must have misread your post....:lol:


Handi:)

Kevroc
02-07-2012, 07:30 AM
I used to say that sex was better than a $30 horse. Now I say $50 horse.


In both cases it's all about the sweat.


:D

pktruckdriver
02-22-2012, 08:53 PM
I forgot about Doc's teaching of Silva Mind control. Good job!

Doc had a number of classes that used operant conditioning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning) which is what it sounds like you employ, Tom, when you touch your thumb to your two fingers.

Another technique taught by one of the teaching members was an avoidence operant method using a rubber band on the wrist.

All good stuff and whatever works for you, use it. If it doesn't then don't worry about it. Find what works and adopt it.


Thanks

I just read up on this and feel it is really a neat way to deal with things.


patrick