We Found a WMD in Iraq!

[boxcar]

Okay, you Libs, listen up. Read what Columnist Cal Thomas has to say about WMDs.

WMD: Wimp of Mass Destruction

"The ultimate weapon of mass destruction has been captured in Iraq.
Saddam Hussein was found hiding in a 'hole in the ground,' like the rat he is, in
a farmhouse on the outskirts of Tikrit. His end came not as a self-styled heroic leader of millions, but as a wimp who resembled a bedraggled homeless
man, unable to muster the nerve to take his own life with the gun on his hip."

- Columnist Cal Thomas

[DeadCrab]

Thanks, Boxie.
I missed this because I never read anything written by admitted coward draft dodgers like Cal Thomas.

[boxcar]

Hey, DC, I suppose anything is possible, but I find it difficult to place Thomas in the same camp as a Clinton or Dean. I know Cal professes to be a Christian, but I don't believe he's a peacenik -- certainly nothing he has ever said or written would lead me to conclude that. Can you substantiante your allegation?

Boxcar

[DeadCrab]

He has admitted it in his column within the past year. Suprised me. But, when you look at the pathetic military records of our leadership, it should come as no suprise.

BTW, Ted Kennedy (as slimey as he is), has a more impressive active duty military record than the President, Vice-President, and Rush Limbaugh combined. John Kerry has a better record than the whole Republican administration combined.

2004: Vote for a vet.

[Lefty]

But military credentials alone doesn't make you capable of leading the country. Look at what Kennedy and Kerry say. I want no part of them. And I'll bet neither one will ever be president. BTW, when you cited who lacked military credentials you left out Clinton. I don't think that was an oversight.
When you look at thje success this adm has had both with protecting us from terrorists and turning around the Clinton recession, I certainly won't hold a lack of military experience against them.
And before Rush, all I heard on the airwaves was the "doom and gloom" liberals. He is more valuable in his current capacity than he would ever have been in the military.

[boxcar]

DeadCrab wrote:

He has admitted it in his column within the past year. Suprised me[b].

To what specifically did he admit? I'd like to know 'cause I think I'll drop him an email to hear it directly from him.

[b]But, when you look at the pathetic military records of our leadership, it should come as no suprise.

Your logic, sir, escapes me. What do the military records of our leadership have to do with a civilian reporter? Or does Thomas hold some secret leadership position of which we know nothing?

BTW, Ted Kennedy (as slimey as he is), has a more impressive active duty military record than the President, Vice-President, and Rush Limbaugh combined. John Kerry has a better record than the whole Republican administration combined.

Two comments: That's nice and so what!?

Point to the place in the Constitution where it stipulates that the Commander-in-Chief must have military experience before he can be elected president. Seems to me that if the Founding Fathers thought that only Generals or Admirals could qualify for Commander-in-Chief , then that would have been stipulated in the Constitution and only Generals or Admirals would have been permitted to run for the top office, don't you think?

2004: Vote for a vet.

I take it, then, that you didn't vote for Slick Willy and won't vote for Dean if he gets the nomination?

Boxcar

[hcap]

Maybe if it was only a few in this administration and there were no wars and occupations taking place during their "reign".

Notable Chickenhawks
PNAC members-the guys that helped get us where we are today

Dick Cheney
Richard Perle
Paul Wofwowitz
Elliot Abrams
Ken Adelman
John Bolton

Others

John Ashcroft
Andrew Card
Tom Delay
Tommy Thompson

AND the reporters who support the Bushies--not just Thomas, but almost all of FAUX major players

Brit Hume
Rush Limbaugh-deferment anal cysts
Roger Ailes- founder Faux TV
Sean Hannity
William Kristol
Bill O’Reilly

Notice Rushs' deferment?

Now, we can argue whether or not Dubya showed up for his reserve duties. You know when he was "not seen for a year" or so.
But thats another story.

[lsbets]

Hcap -

Why is it that no one I know in the military buys any of your chickenhawk bullsh*t? Its a non issue to everyone I know who is currently serving. I also bet it was a non issue for you when Clinton used force as commander in chief. You are full of it. Completely full of it. If Bush combed his hair in the opposite direction you guys would find a hidden reason behind it that proves how evil he is.

You are trying to invent an issue that really has no relevance. As I said, you are full of it.

[hcap]

Just lending some support to DeadCrab's
point.

And I am not inventing an issue. This HAS been an issue among many for at least a year. And the PNAC has been around since the late eighties--and now hold major decision making roles in this administration.

Faux news IS the cheerleader for Bush and his policies, and Thomas is a commentator at times for them.

If Bush combed his hair TO THE LEFT, I would not complain.
:cool:

[lsbets]

Maybe I should have said you guys instead of you. My point is, this is not an issue to anyone I know currently in the military, just as Clinton's lack of service was not an issue to the same people screaming chickenhawk. It is sheer hypocrisy on the part of the left.

[JustRalph]

The military issue is working so well for John Kerry too.....

Hcap....... G.W. Graduated 2nd in his fighter pilot class. I know you will bring up that he got in because of his daddy.........but his daddy didn't help him graduate 2nd. He has some legit military credentials. Most military persons understand what it takes to graduate 2nd in a fighter pilot class. You can bring up him being missing from Guard duty all you want. I have been on active and reserve duty and know some guys who were in the guard at the time. All it takes is a signature from the right person in the unit and you can be gone all you want. It was common. Loyd Bentsen's kid was in the same unit and was gone just as much. It was a loose unit and it had kids from prominent people layered through it. So what ? I don't care how Rush Limbaugh got out of the draft, he isn't running for anything. Neither is Cal Thomas. BTW, I think Cal Thomas sucks.........boring!!! with a capital Bore!

[hcap]

The "chickenhawk" debate is somewhat bogus I will admit. For instance, I don't believe Lincoln was a military man before becoming president.

However before this war the debate was joined by many in the military, and the issue of the "chickenhawk" was used by THEM

WAY BEFORE THE WAR--IN 2002

In an interview with Newsweek, conservative Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-Neb.) said, "It is interesting to me that many of those who want to rush this country into war and think it would be so quick and easy don't know anything about war."
"They come at it from an intellectual perspective versus having sat in jungles or foxholes and watched their friends get their heads blown off. I try to speak for those ghosts of the past a little bit," added Hagel, a Vietnam War Army infantryman with two Purple Hearts.

Tampa Tribune reported on comments made by retired Gen. Anthony Zinni, the White House's special envoy to the Middle East, to the Economic Club of Florida in Tallahassee. Zinni noted that the voices most urging caution on Iraq were people who knew war first hand, former generals Colin Powell, Brent Scowcroft and Norman Schwarzkopf.
"It's pretty interesting that all the generals see it the same way," Zinni said. "And all the others who have never fired a shot and are hot to go to war see it another way."

Woody Powell, the national administrator of Veterans for Peace, echoed that point of view.

"I think if they had had the sobering experience of war — they don't even have to have been in combat, but if they had just walked around and looked at the bodies one time — they might have a little more perspective on the decisions that they are making," said Powell, a veteran of the Korean war, who said he wasn't particularly fond of President Clinton — who "fired missiles to distract" from his personal scandals. "If they haven't smelled the scent of napalm, if they haven't heard the bullets going by them, they just really aren't acquainted with what they're dealing with in a visceral sense. They need to smell it, and it doesn't smell good."

[Lefty]

Like Boxcar said: It's a big so what? We got Saddam, no terrorist attacks since 9-11, Kadafe got the msg and prob N. Korea will soon follow. If you guys had an ounce of objectivety you would be cheering.

[Tom]

Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what You can do for your counry.
I am not a crook.
Mr. Gorbechev, Tear down that wall!
Read my lips: No new taxes.
I did not have sexual relations with that women!
You are either with us of against us.
Ladies and gentlemen, We got him!


We seem to be on an upward trend lately :D

[hcap]

JR

How do you know G.W. graduated 2nd in his class? Haven't seen that.

[JustRalph]

I read it twice, before he was elected........pretty sure one of them was in an article in Readers Digest. I read it at the Doctors office. It had a bunch of info about him and some of his buddies from Texas. It was kind of a puff piece......you know Readers Digest......he was beaten out by a guy who got better scores for landing.......... I guess G.W. planted a couple of hard ones at the end of the course. Having been a pilot.........I can relate to dropping a few hard ones on the runway in my time. I never flew anything like a fighter.......but it happens to the best of us.......

[Tom]

Bobcat Goldwaith once was clled into his high school guidence counselor's office and told that in a class of 100, he was ranked number 97 and what did he plan to do about it?
He replied,"I am going to find 98, 99, and 100 and hang out with them...I'll be their leader!" :D

[Secretariat]

Hcap,

Well researched info. If you go to that depth to find quotes supporting your position like that, I'll bet you're a pretty good horse player.

This president has used the term Commander In Chief more than any president I can remember.

The term was given to George Washington by the Continental Congress in 1776, who was the true Commander during the Revolutionary War. Because of Washington it ws added to Article 2 of the Constitution, but it seems to have tipped the balance in today's world giving the President more power to declare miltary action than Congress, who is really given the constitutional authority to declare war in Article 1. Certainly, comparing Bush or Clinton to George Washington's experience on the battlefield is laughable. I'd prefer to see the term Commander in Chief used as it was intended in the Constitution and allow Congress to make these decisions on war as was intended by the Founding Fathers in the Constitution.

U.S. Constitution: Article I

Section 8.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

War Powers
While the President is the Commander in Chief, Congress holds the power to declare war, to raise and support armies, to provide and maintain a navy, and to make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces.

[DeadCrab]

The reason you don't hear active duty military personel criticizing the president is because it is a courts martial offense to do so.

If the president can't uphold the Uniform Code of Military Justice, he is unfit to hold others to the same standard. There is no greater cowardice than sending others to battle when you yourself would not go. I don't have any problem with someone choosing not to serve, but if they then try to send someone else then they earn the "chickenhawk" label.

Why is it a liberal like me can voluntarily serve 3 years active, 3 years active reserve and have to listen to this (premature) "told you so" crap from a bunch of conservatives who conviently kept themselves from harm's way.

If you want respect. Serve your country.

[Suff]

Originally posted by hcap

Andrew Card
.

Bush's chief of Staff. MA Native. He and another drove Bush Sr. around NH when he campaigned there.

About 10 ago years.. the MASS. DNC were holding thier convention in Springfield MA. Card did a dirty back door deal with The Springfield Police Dept. They agreed to Strike the DAY the convention started. The Police formed a Picket Line in front of the Convention Center on Opening Morning.

Democrats who are pro-labor could'nt commit political death by Crossing a Picket Line. Being anti-labor in Local Politics is "insta-death" in Massachusetts.

It was a Real coup by Card... he became a star in the Republican Party for this. It took a day or two to get the Picket Line down and get started. It Really messed up the Democratic Convention that year.

Btw.. Card wasn't alone.. he had an accomplice that helped him Pull it off.. Andrew Natsios. Currently President Bush's USAID Administrator. Nice work if you can get it.

Its part of the Dirty-Republicans FULL_EMPLOYMENT act of 2001.

Andrew S. Natsios was sworn in on May 1, 2001, as administrator of the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID). For more than 40 years, USAID has been the lead U.S. government agency providing economic and humanitarian assistance to transitioning and developing countries.

President Bush has also appointed him Special Coordinator for International Disaster Assistance and Special Humanitarian Coordinator for the Sudan.

[Lefty]

Things going damn well in this country right now, so you Bush hating leftists have got to get picky picky picky to find things to criticize Bush about. After the last administration you are just not used to having a courageous moral man put his presidency on the line to do what's right for this country.
When Bush was last here in LV Nevada a liberal here criticized him for mispronouncing Nevada. Turns out that according to Spanish he was pronouncing it correctly after all. Like I say, picky, picky picky. And you will have 4 more yrs after this term to find mor nits to pick. Have fun.

[Suff]

Originally posted by JustRalph
. I know you will bring up that he got in because of his daddy.........but his daddy didn't help him graduate 2nd.

The Bush wing of the Republican Party is the Military wing...

Bush is from Texas yes... and he is obviously proud of that. But his American Roots are Yankee in Nature. and the "orginal" Bush's are war fans... east coast money..

They own a Majority share of Raytheon.. One of the Biggest Weapons Producer in the world. Including Most Missiles on the Jets GWB trained in. They have towns and islands named after them in "old-new england". His parents live at walkers Point in Maine,,, George Hebert walker bush... walkers island..

Bath Iron works in Maine, Genaral Dynamics in Connetticut, Raytheon in Massachusetts.. Those are GWB's Sr's Buddies...

and its well within reason to assume they can influence who gets in and where they land...

Its all the same game.. It happens in Little league and it happens as much or more in the Big Leagues.

[lsbets]

Deadcrab,

I am not talking about hearing active duty military personel criticize the President publicly, I am talking about my personal experience of not hearing it in conversations. I am talking about people I know and deal with everyday. Trust me, you heard them criticize Clinton all the time. It is a non issue. The vast majority of people I know on both active and reserve duty have a great deal of respect for President Bush and his policies.

You wrote "If you want respect. Serve your country."

Sounds pretty self righteous there. I do not see anything in the constitution that says one has to serve to be President, Congressman, or anything. There are simply people who get it, and people who don't. Most would benefit from the experience of serving, but it is by no means neccessary. I didn't even hold Clinton's "I loathe the military" comments against him, figuring that people grow up and mature and would usually do some things differently in their 40s and 50s then they would in their early 20s. I have served on active duty and in the reserves. I am about to go to Iraq for 12-18 months and will miss the birth of my second child. And I have nothing but respect for the policy makers in the Bush administration whether they served or not, because the policies that they put forward are the right ones for the security of our nation and it is about time that we had them.

In terms of criticizing the President and how the UCMJ looks at it:

888. ART. 88. CONTEMPT TOWARD OFFICIALS
Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.


Notice the key phrase "while he is on duty or present". The UCMJ does not take away a soldiers right to free speech, however, it does limit how and where, as is completely appropriate. I cannot stand in front of my soldeirs and criticize any official. However, I can go out to dinner with my friends and let out any criticism that I want to. Merely voicing one's opinion is not punishable by court martial. What I was referring to is the conversations that I hear everyday. Like I said, it is a total non-issue to those who I know in the military, myself included.

[hcap]

JR

Readers Digest? No wonder I missed it!!!!

Some Facts

1-year gap in Bush's Guard duty

No record of airman at drills from 1972-73

By Walter V. Robinson, Globe Staff, 5/23/2000
http://awol.gq.nu/AWOL_Globe%20series.htm

AUSTIN, Texas - After George W. Bush became governor in 1995, the Houston Air National Guard unit he had served with during the Vietnam War years honored him for his work, noting that he flew an F-102 fighter-interceptor until his discharge in October 1973.

And Bush himself, in his 1999 autobiography, ''A Charge to Keep,'' recounts the thrills of his pilot training, which he completed in June 1970. ''I continued flying with my unit for the next several years,'' the governor wrote.

But both accounts are contradicted by copies of Bush's military records, obtained by the Globe. In his final 18 months of military service in 1972 and 1973, Bush did not fly at all. And for much of that time, Bush was all but unaccounted for: For a full year, there is no record that he showed up for the periodic drills required of part-time guardsmen.

Bush, who declined to be interviewed on the issue, said through a spokesman that he has ''some recollection'' of attending drills that year, but maybe not consistently.
____________________________
Here are more tidbits

1) He got into the Guard by pulling strings, avoiding the year and a half
waiting list;
2) He took a 2-month vacation in Florida after just 8 weeks, (1 of 3
leaves), to work on a political campaign;
3) Bush skipped Officer Candidate School and got a special commission as a
2nd Lieutenant, without qualifications;
4) He was assigned to a safe plane (being phased out of active service), the
F-102 ;
5) During flight school, he was flown on a government jet to Washington for
a date with President Nixon's daughter Tricia ;
6) Bush got an illegal transfer (later overruled) to a base with no work;
7) George W. skipped all his medical exams after they started drug tests,
and was removed from flight status;
8) He ended his service 10 months early to go to Harvard Business School

AND there is NO mention in any of the sources I checked about graduating 2nd.

Ralph you're correct about GW's unit being lax.

Here are some of the details:

On May 27, 1968, George Bush Jr. was 12 days away from losing his student
draft deferment, at a time when 350 Americans a week were dying in combat.
The National Guard, seen by many as the most respectable way to avoid
Vietnam, had a huge waiting list -- a year and a half in Texas, over 100,000
men nationwide. Yet Bush and his family friends pulled strings, and the
young man was admitted the same day he applied, regardless of any waiting
list.
Bush's unit commander, Col. "Buck" Staudt, was so excited about his VIP
recruit that he staged a special ceremony for the press so he could have his
picture taken administering the oath (even though the official oath had been
given by a captain earlier.)
Bush and his allies have tried to deny this with several changing stories,
but Bush himself admits lobbying commander Staudt, who approved him, and
court documents confirm that close family friend and oil magnate Sid Adger
called Texas Speaker of the House Ben Barnes, who called General James Rose,
the head of the Texas Air National Guard, to get Bush in. Rose, who is now
dead, told his friend and former legislator Jake Johnson that "I got that
Republican congressman's son from Houston into the Guard."
Staudt's unit, the 147th, was infamous as a nesting place for politically
connected and celebrity draft avoiders. Democratic Senator Lloyd Bentsen's
son was in the unit, as was Republican Senator John Tower's, both of Sid
Adger's sons and at least 7 members of the Dallas Cowboys.

As I said in an earlier post Lincoln was not a military man before becomming pres So maybe the above has no bearing on anything, but what is more interesting is how the media basically ignored this story during the 2000 election.

Paul Begala CNN CROSSFIRE
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0211/27/cf.00.html

"We had our -- my assistant, Josh Cowan (ph), who is a brilliant young man, look up on Lexus Nexus, comparing the mainstream media's coverage of Bush and Gore on a variety of issues. Let me give you a few statistics."

"There were exactly 704 stories in the campaign about this flap of Gore inventing the Internet. There were only 13 stories about Bush failing to show up for his National Guard duty for a year. There were well over 1,000 stories -- Nexus stopped at 1,000 -- about Gore and the Buddhist temple. Only 12 about Bush being accused of insider trading at Harken Energy. There were 347 about Al Gore wearing earth tones, but only 10 about the fact that Dick Cheney did business with Iran and Iraq and Libya."

[Lefty]

Oh, my heavens. Let's drum him out of office. Never mind that he has the terrorists on the run, captured Saddam, the economy is going great. Never mind all that. I like what one analyst said: "If Bush walked on water the liberals would say ot was proof he flunked swimming class." I paraphrased that a little bit. Funnier my way.

[hcap]

Lefty
"If Bush walked on water the liberals would say ot was proof he flunked swimming class."
More like "If Bush walked on water, he knew where his staff planted the rocks"

[Lefty]

Ok, "If Bush walked on water, the whiney liberals would say he knew where the rocks were."
There ya go...

[Derek2U]

Like Who Cares? I got something far more important 2 type:
GET the Moody Blues' new CD called DECEMBER. Some of U know
that I sing kinda 4 fun & play music ... I would luv 2 b Justin H.
4 one gig ... his voice is sooo cooL ... so , U oldies + Newers,
get the CD & listen 2 great lyrics + delivery. hehe hes like an idol.
neways, ok, return 2 laura & Bush43 & his non-alky egg nog,
like the biggest bore? Mayb thats what it takes 2 b preZ...
a grey persona w/ no mind-set outside duplicity.

[Tom]

Been listening to the Moodies since 1968.
Went to see them in about 80-81???
Awesome outdoor concert, hot August night, sitting on a hillside, propped up by a beer cooler, music coming out of the trees.
Gotta go check on my roast in the oven....."must be lamb today, 'casue beef was last week!" ;)

[JustRalph]

just like you guys to screw up a perfectly good thread with all this accuracy..........

Hey DeadCrap, how in the hell did you survive with Clinton in office? If you held Clinton to the same standard I am sure you hated him too..........all good points gents..........I must be off!

[Derek2U]

Party PooP .... its dancin drinkin & partyin time ... unless u wanna
join the basH from BoxCar & Lefty bring ur own cranberrys