View Full Version : NEW ENGLAND minus the points
lamboguy
01-30-2012, 10:05 AM
on paper the Pats don't have a chance. the Giants have already beaten them in a superbowl and also this season with key injuries. the Giants not only match up well with the Pats, but they have more speed. if this were a 10 game series, i would think the Giants would win 7 out of 10 games. but this is not a series, its a single game, so i am going to the coaching staff, the Giants staff is great but the Pats is better, and i am thinking they will get it right for the the one game.
my choice
Pats minus the points
jdhanover
01-30-2012, 10:15 AM
Go G-Men!!!!!
I think it will be a tight game. My prediction for key player of the game - Mario Manningham. I'm guessing Belichek does something interesting to try to take nicks and cruz out of the game (can't be Edelman on Cruz but guessing Belichek changes schemes). But this probably leaves pats worst cover guy against manningham. Just thinking that he may be the key to the game. And look for Ballard to play a bigger role than he has (healthier now).
Robert Goren
01-30-2012, 11:59 AM
The Ravens missed a FG to send the game into overtime. It took mistakes by a return man to get the Giants there. So both teams got there on "Tebow" luck. I think Brady is a better QB and will win in what figures to be a good game. I think the Giants defense is pretty beat up and Farrell has done great job of hiding the weaknesses. With two weeks to work with, the Pats will find a way to expose them. Pats 38-35.
Marshall Bennett
01-30-2012, 12:18 PM
Patriots turn up the heat. 42-24 Pats.
NJ Stinks
01-30-2012, 01:09 PM
on paper the Pats don't have a chance. the Giants have already beaten them in a superbowl and also this season with key injuries. the Giants not only match up well with the Pats, but they have more speed. if this were a 10 game series, i would think the Giants would win 7 out of 10 games. but this is not a series, its a single game, so i am going to the coaching staff, the Giants staff is great but the Pats is better, and i am thinking they will get it right for the the one game.
my choice
Pats minus the points
Lambo, there was no line offered in Vegas on you taking the Giants! :p :)
lamboguy
01-30-2012, 03:14 PM
Lambo, there was no line offered in Vegas on you taking the Giants! :p :)i am currently long the GIANTS at +4 1/2. i will either even off the position or go long the other side. i am probably going to just try to trap the pointspread.
slew101
01-30-2012, 05:31 PM
Can I ask a question? Is there no end to your BS?
What the heck are you talking about? Is this some type of riddle?
This is what you posted last week.
[i am hearing it will go down to 2, i wish i had bet the giants before their game against the fortyniner's, i could have got 4 1/2 and then i could have tried to trap the game.]
Now last week, you said you didn't get 4.5 before the NFC title game. Now, you have NYG +4.5.
i am currently long the GIANTS at +4 1/2. i will either even off the position or go long the other side. i am probably going to just try to trap the pointspread.
lamboguy
01-30-2012, 05:52 PM
Can I ask a question? Is there no end to your BS?
What the heck are you talking about? Is this some type of riddle?
This is what you posted last week.
[i am hearing it will go down to 2, i wish i had bet the giants before their game against the fortyniner's, i could have got 4 1/2 and then i could have tried to trap the game.]
Now last week, you said you didn't get 4.5 before the NFC title game. Now, you have NYG +4.5.i got $20 on it!
Rookies
01-30-2012, 09:05 PM
i got $20 on it!
Hmmmm... 20 on my site, means it cost you $32 to get that #.
Valuist
01-30-2012, 10:11 PM
The line never hit 4.5. Not even at the biggest square shops.
andicap
01-31-2012, 01:37 PM
Can't you buy points at some sites where you pay in odds? You get 4.5 pts but lay 3-2 or something.
pandy
01-31-2012, 02:02 PM
I posted my complete Super Bowl analysis on my website again this year, have hit 8 of last 10 against the spread.
I like the Giants and the pts, I bet them at 3 1/2.
Both teams have great coaches, great QBs, and top offenses but the Giants defense has been playing great and they are not only better than the Pats defense, but also more experienced. Clear edge to the Giants on defense.
The Patriots only played two teams with winning records all year and lost both games, including the one to the Giants. The Giants beat the world chamption Packers, Patriots, and 49ers, had a tougher schedule and should actually be the favorites in this game.
Interesting things to watch, Belichick doesn't like to get beat by the top offensive player so he'll try to shut down Cruz with double coverage. I think the Giants prepare for that and Eli spreads the ball around to all his receivers including backs and tight ends. Manningham could have some key catches subbing for Hicks.
Another thing to look for, last week the 49ers put tremendous heat on Eli with their blitzes. Will the Patriots blitz? In Nov. Brady was sacked twice, Eli was not sacked.
In the Giants win on Nov. 6 they did an excellent job of confusing Brady by changing coverages so he couldn't read their defense and change the play at the line, and it resulted in 4 turnovers including two interceptions. But now Pats have had time to make adjustments.
The Giants could dominate the game but the Patriots are so well coached and prepared that they usually keep it close, or win, even when they play a team that has more talent. The Giants are the better team, they have no excuse if they don't win.
cj's dad
01-31-2012, 02:09 PM
Giants straight up and under 55.
NE lucky to be in the SB, and as Pandy pointed out, the Pats had a sub-par record vs. winning teams
Marshall Bennett
01-31-2012, 09:05 PM
Giants straight up and under 55.
NE lucky to be in the SB
And the Giants aren't? They barely made the playoffs as I recall.
pandy
01-31-2012, 10:00 PM
I think both teams deserve to be there, they are both outstanding teams. Let's face it, the conference games figures to be close games and the 49ers and Ravens also deserved to be in the S.B.
Bettowin
02-01-2012, 12:52 AM
Giants straight up and under 55.
NE lucky to be in the SB, and as Pandy pointed out, the Pats had a sub-par record vs. winning teams
I agree with you on both bets. I am taking the under and already have the Giants to win the SB at 15-1:) Didn't like Green Bay and the Giants were on a roll similar to GB last year coming into the playoffs. Still going to hedge a bit on the Pats so I come out ahead on that one but do really like the under 55.
Good luck.
Valuist
02-01-2012, 01:27 PM
And the Giants aren't? They barely made the playoffs as I recall.
Not much lucky about the Giants thrashing of both Atlanta and Green Bay. Those were no doubt at it a$$ kickings.
thaskalos
02-01-2012, 02:19 PM
A team is neither as good as its lopsided victories...nor as bad as its embarrassing defeats. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.
IMO, it is wrong to isolate on N.Y.'s triumpths...while ignoring their embarrassing defeats; like the drubbing they received at the hands of N.O....or their 14-point losses to Washington (twice).
The Giants talk of injuries...but some of the teams they LOST to were injury-riddled as well. Heck...the Philadelphia Eagles trotted out an undermanned squad featuring a quarterback who hadn't completed a pass, and a receiver who hadn't caught a ball all season...and yet they beat the Giants 17-10 -- at the Meadowlands!
Seattle beat them easily, also at the Meadowlands...while using a backup quarterback.
rastajenk
02-01-2012, 03:14 PM
I'm almost surprised the G-men aren't the faves, with all the bandwagoning going on. It feels like picking the Bellicheks is going against the Conventional Wisdom...which is why I'mm picking them, to cover and go Over.
ponyplayerdotca
02-03-2012, 12:09 AM
Bet GIANTS money line and/or +3.5 points.
The Giants will win by at least 13 points. I don't necessarily mean they are going to "blowout" the Patriots. But I see a game similar to SB 44 two years ago when the Saints and Colts played a really close game for the most part, but NO did win by 14 points when all was said and done (31-17).
The Patriots are a shell of their former selves, and SB 42 is looking more and more like the beginning of their ultimate downfall. They lost their perfect season, Brady gets hurt in 2008 (no playoffs), one-and-done in 2009 and 2010, and this year, they do make the SB again, but by winning a very soft AFC in comparison to the teams in the NFC.
Belichick and Brady are the two major components left over from their glory days 5-10 years ago. But I simply think they are past their prime. The Giants are playing much better football now and should win this game going away as the late stages approach.
Investorater
02-04-2012, 02:50 AM
Anticipating a spectacular Super Bowl XLVI (#46) comparable to Super Bowl #42 (XLII) between these same two teams in 2008.:ThmbUp:
BlueShoe
02-04-2012, 08:23 AM
Pats 27 Giants 17.
Rookies
02-04-2012, 09:28 AM
Even ifthe Incredible Hulk plays and at 90% medical status, it will be an exciting back and forth game. As soemone who bet NE at the season's beginning, but bet the Giants before the Packers game, I have an interest in both.
This is one SB, where I am stumped on picking a winner. Both can win with high totals.
pandy
02-04-2012, 09:30 AM
A team is neither as good as its lopsided victories...nor as bad as its embarrassing defeats. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.
IMO, it is wrong to isolate on N.Y.'s triumpths...while ignoring their embarrassing defeats; like the drubbing they received at the hands of N.O....or their 14-point losses to Washington (twice).
The Giants talk of injuries...but some of the teams they LOST to were injury-riddled as well. Heck...the Philadelphia Eagles trotted out an undermanned squad featuring a quarterback who hadn't completed a pass, and a receiver who hadn't caught a ball all season...and yet they beat the Giants 17-10 -- at the Meadowlands!
Seattle beat them easily, also at the Meadowlands...while using a backup quarterback.
It's just like horses, a top horse could lose to an inferior horse with less class but once the top horse gets into its peak form cycle that won't happen. Right now the Giants have cycled up and are in peak form, so the overall won loss record and losses to teams like the Redskins earlier in the year is meaningless. This is why so many wild card teams do well. Same in '08, the Giants ended the season on a roll and almost beat the undefeated Patriots in the final game, then went into the post season and won 4 straight on the road.
lamboguy
02-04-2012, 10:05 AM
they must have big lines in the sports books of nevada waiting to get some of this easy GIANT money.
there is only one problem, they didn't spend billions of dollars in the middle of a desert for people to walk into those places to take out the money and bring it back home.
tribecaagent
02-04-2012, 02:00 PM
Wh*t the f**k is everyone looking at?
Either I'm a fumbling, non-paying attention, ignorant moron or the NY football Giants are a mortal lock in this spot?
They are clearly the better team, no?
I'm I going out of my mind?
Marshall Bennett
02-04-2012, 03:34 PM
I believe lots of people are going with the Giants through their hearts and not their heads. Giants shouldn't even be in the Super Bowl. Patriots are obviously the better team and will justify it tomorrow night. :)
tribecaagent
02-04-2012, 03:55 PM
I believe lots of people are going with the Giants through their hearts and not their heads. Giants shouldn't even be in the Super Bowl. Patriots are obviously the better team and will justify it tomorrow night. :)
I'm not a Giant fan Marshall. Perhaps you're right though, either the Giants are the lock-of-the-century or I'm just lost.
pandy
02-04-2012, 04:25 PM
One thing about the stats, they show that New England has the better offense. I believe the Giants offense is just as good if not better. But Belichick likes to "pile it on" when his team is leading so even if the Pats are up three or four scores heading into the 4th quarter, Brady is still throwing the ball all over the place. Wes Welker got hurt at the end of a blowout in the final game of the season once and missed the playoffs. He should have been on the bench.
Anyway, my point is, that's why the Pats have so many points and yards. Very few teams pile it on, most go to the running game when they have the game under control. Of course Belichick has very little confidence in his defense, but even when he had a great defense he liked to pile it on.
forced89
02-04-2012, 06:18 PM
Joe Nameth was on O'Reilly last night a picked the Pats. He said the Giants think their season is a success just by getting to the Super Bowl and don't have the same drive as the Pats. I have the under @ 54 1/2.
pandy
02-04-2012, 06:57 PM
Joe Nameth was on O'Reilly last night a picked the Pats. He said the Giants think their season is a success just by getting to the Super Bowl and don't have the same drive as the Pats. I have the under @ 54 1/2.
I love Joe, but that's an odd analysis. In the Super Bowl passion doesn't come into play because both teams are playing lights out. During the season there are a lot of teams that lose games they should win because they don't play all out but it's a long, grueling, season and all teams go through emotional ups and downs, between the injuries and everything. But tomorrow there's no edge to be had on emotion. That's why the best team usually wins the Super Bowl, unlike the regular season, when strange things happen. Of course if both teams are closely matched then the best team may not win and the team that makes the most mistakes will lose. Luck comes into play sometimes in closely matched games, just like the conference games two weeks ago. But in the Super Bowl, the best team usually wins, that's why it's one of the best sporting contests to bet on.
Valuist
02-04-2012, 06:58 PM
A team is neither as good as its lopsided victories...nor as bad as its embarrassing defeats. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.
IMO, it is wrong to isolate on N.Y.'s triumpths...while ignoring their embarrassing defeats; like the drubbing they received at the hands of N.O....or their 14-point losses to Washington (twice).
The Giants talk of injuries...but some of the teams they LOST to were injury-riddled as well. Heck...the Philadelphia Eagles trotted out an undermanned squad featuring a quarterback who hadn't completed a pass, and a receiver who hadn't caught a ball all season...and yet they beat the Giants 17-10 -- at the Meadowlands!
Seattle beat them easily, also at the Meadowlands...while using a backup quarterback.
Other than the Patriots win over the Ravens in the AFC title game, how many quality wins do they have?
tribecaagent
02-04-2012, 07:33 PM
Other than the Patriots win over the Ravens in the AFC title game, how many quality wins do they have?
I understand it was a win. But was it really a win?
thaskalos
02-04-2012, 08:38 PM
Other than the Patriots win over the Ravens in the AFC title game, how many quality wins do they have?
I am at O'Hare Airport on my way to Vegas as we speak.
If I can find NE at -2.5...it will be the biggest wager I have placed in 2 years.
slew101
02-04-2012, 09:47 PM
I was able to get NE on the ML -135. Jumped on it.
I didn't think Brady & Belichick would win another title until Belichick got better assistant coaches, and let's be fair, the Pats should not even be in this game if the Ravens had executed down the stretch.
But one thing the Pats do is take advantage of their opportunities. They never should have been in Brady's first Super Bowl, and they won that. Everyone talks about the Giants top defensive stars, but are they that much better than the Ravens? The Pats did a good job blocking Suggs, Lewis and Ngata and I think they can block the G-men effectively enough to win this game.
I am at O'Hare Airport on my way to Vegas as we speak.
If I can find NE at -2.5...it will be the biggest wager I have placed in 2 years.
HARVICK_29
02-04-2012, 11:51 PM
THE PATRIOTS HAVE WON 3 SUPER BOWLS AND LOST 1 ALL BY 3 PTS IN ALL 4 GAMES
PATS 28
GIANTS 25
Valuist
02-05-2012, 11:34 AM
The Giants have been doing an awful lot of talking, especially considering they are the underdog. The public is all over them, and there has to start to be concerns of overconfidence. I admit I'm on the Giants, but go to Covers or Madjacks or any pure sports handicapping forum and its about 70% on the Giants. THAT is a concern.
My conventional handicapping came up w/the Giants, but the LAST impression is best. If the number hits -2.5 I will bet New England twice as hard as my original Giants bet.
jdhanover
02-05-2012, 11:46 AM
The Giants have been doing an awful lot of talking, especially considering they are the underdog. The public is all over them, and there has to start to be concerns of overconfidence. I admit I'm on the Giants, but go to Covers or Madjacks or any pure sports handicapping forum and its about 70% on the Giants. THAT is a concern.
But the line is still 3 for NE...someone is betting them, no?
Valuist
02-05-2012, 11:48 AM
But the line is still 3 for NE...someone is betting them, no?
Exactly. You can have 50 $100 bettors on one side and one $5000 bettor on the other side. It really looks that way. Always felt the Pats were a public team but not in this case.
canleakid
02-05-2012, 12:24 PM
got a wager on the g.i. ANTS +2.5, but think they might win by :1: :1: ;)
NJ Stinks
02-05-2012, 01:21 PM
Since I believed the Ravens were a better team than the Patriots and I believe the Giants are on par with the Ravens, I'm fairly confident taking the Giants +3 on a neutral field.
The over-under is another story. While it appears that having either offense on the field is great if one takes over, obvious strategy may be that both teams want to control the ball and keep the other offense off the field. In fact, I was reading an article about the NE-NY 2008 Super Bowl and it was the first time in SB history that each team possessed the ball only once in the first quarter. So what to do with the o/u?
I wound up asking my wife what she liked and true to form she emphatically embraced the over! :) "It could be over by halftime," she reminded me for the thousandth time. :D
So I have the Giants and over 54. :blush:
Jay Trotter
02-05-2012, 02:05 PM
So what to do with the o/u?
I wound up asking my wife what she liked and true to form she emphatically embraced the over! :)
I'm guessing she gets enough of the UNDER at home! :lol:
Valuist
02-05-2012, 02:36 PM
Since I believed the Ravens were a better team than the Patriots and I believe the Giants are on par with the Ravens, I'm fairly confident taking the Giants +3 on a neutral field.
The over-under is another story. While it appears that having either offense on the field is great if one takes over, obvious strategy may be that both teams want to control the ball and keep the other offense off the field. In fact, I was reading an article about the NE-NY 2008 Super Bowl and it was the first time in SB history that each team possessed the ball only once in the first quarter. So what to do with the o/u?
I wound up asking my wife what she liked and true to form she emphatically embraced the over! :) "It could be over by halftime," she reminded me for the thousandth time. :D
So I have the Giants and over 54. :blush:
I like the total (in this case, OVER) better than the side. Two good QBs, two bad pass defenses, a slew of very capable receivers. Not many running plays so many clock stoppages to lengthen the game. Weather no factor and a fast track.
Valuist
02-05-2012, 03:07 PM
The Giants have been doing an awful lot of talking, especially considering they are the underdog. The public is all over them, and there has to start to be concerns of overconfidence. I admit I'm on the Giants, but go to Covers or Madjacks or any pure sports handicapping forum and its about 70% on the Giants. THAT is a concern.
My conventional handicapping came up w/the Giants, but the LAST impression is best. If the number hits -2.5 I will bet New England twice as hard as my original Giants bet.
Its been all Patriot money today at one well known outlet so -2.5 will not be an option. Will stand pat (no pun intended) with NYG +3 and OVER 53.
The Giants have been doing an awful lot of talking, especially considering they are the underdog.
They have been talking like that for the entire playoff season.
PhantomOnTour
02-05-2012, 05:16 PM
I am looking for who's gonna win the game...
My pick?
The New York Football Giants !
I don't expect much outta Gronk tonight and that will hurt the Pats.
No way they light up the G-men.
G-men tough it out in an ugly one, just the way they like it...23-19
Try to look for a karma move very year in the Bowl as i think this is the one game that's in the hands of the football Gods. And the football Gods like teams who block and tackle and run...they like FOOTBALL players and the Giants have more of that than New England.
This is for the future of the game y'all ! The slick and quick five wide video game offense is threatening to change our beloved game into some future ball that i am not familiar with, nor do i like very much..
Think of that famous photo of YA Tittle (LSU Tiger!) on the sidelines with his head bleeding and his uniform all dirty and tattered...has anyone on the Pats ever played so hard that they looked like that?
delayjf
02-05-2012, 05:48 PM
I have to say, I really think the Giants are simply the better team for one reason - their defense. The have the kind of defense that can stop the Patriots because they can rush the passer. It won't help that the Pats have no running game. I'm not saying they will dominate the Pats Offense nobody really does that, but they will slow them down.
On the other side of the ball, the giants have a balance running and passing game playing against the number 31 ranked defense in the NFL. Barring turn over, I don't see how they stop the Giants offense.
canleakid
02-05-2012, 06:54 PM
Cruz controllllllllllllllllll ;) early I know
lamboguy
02-05-2012, 07:57 PM
great first half!
giants showed up with their best today.
canleakid
02-05-2012, 10:05 PM
got a wager on the g.i. ANTS +2.5, but think they might win by :1: :1: ;)
VERY good game ;) and $$$$ :cool:
Dave Schwartz
02-05-2012, 10:07 PM
I don't know if it was just me or what... but I enjoyed this game day more than any I have had in years.
LOL - We had all low-cal food, and the commercials were not great, but it was an excellent game.
What was your EXPERIENCE like?
It was a fabulous game of football.
slew101
02-05-2012, 10:13 PM
Congrats to Giants fans and backers. They were the better team. No doubt about it.
Stick a fork in Brady and Belichick. They are done. Be surprised if they ever get back to the SB.
Unless the brilliant Belichick decides to actually draft some talent at WR and RB or sign some good free agents who are not on the cheap. Right. No chance they do that.
My Pats rant is over.
slew101
02-05-2012, 10:19 PM
Wanted to add what a great broadcast that was by NBC. I like their coverage better than any other network. Collingsworth is OK, and Michaels is still the best play-by-play guy.
They didn't overload the broadcast with Manning family shots, or Gisele shots, or Bob Kraft and John Mara shots. I think they all got one, maybe two.
And only a couple cuts to the sideline for valuable information. None of the "the coach told me we have to play better."
chickenhead
02-05-2012, 10:19 PM
we were talking about Woodhead during the game, I was wondering where he was from and was shocked it was Nebraska (shocked he is from Nebraska and didn't even get recruited to Nebraska).
I love guys like him, undersized but natural studs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Woodhead
Same deal with Welker, amazing how little respect these guys got coming out of high school even.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wes_Welker
Dave Schwartz
02-05-2012, 10:25 PM
Stick a fork in Brady and Belichick. They are done. Be surprised if they ever get back to the SB.
Neither looked "done" to me.
This was two excellent teams in a game with a 3-pt spread.
pandy
02-05-2012, 10:39 PM
The Patriots never cease to amaze me. They always either win or lose a close game even when they play a team that obviously has more talent. The Giants have much more team speed, better running backs and receivers, and a much better defense and yet the Pats had the lead with less than 4 minutes to play.
thaskalos
02-05-2012, 10:48 PM
I don't know if it was just me or what... but I enjoyed this game day more than any I have had in years.
LOL - We had all low-cal food, and the commercials were not great, but it was an excellent game.
What was your EXPERIENCE like?
I must say that I didn't enjoy this game nearly as much as you did, Dave...
It left me with a much lighter wallet...and an irresistible urge to try to get even at the blackjack tables.
I am watching an oriental guy betting one thousand a hand...and he is making it look soooo easy... :)
Valuist
02-05-2012, 11:37 PM
The Gronkowski factor was huge. He's the only game changer on that offense and when he's a decoy, who's going to burn you? Welker is a good player but he doesn't scare anyone. Hernandez is a good player but benefits from all the attention a healthy Gronkowski takes. As for their other wideouts, they need help.
slew101
02-05-2012, 11:41 PM
Agree 100 percent. How can the Giants consistently draft talented WRs, yet NE can't, won't, or try and get by with other team's leftovers? Branch would be a No. 3 WR on most teams. Ochocinco was a bust.
They only got Moss a few years ago because the Raiders gave him away.
The Gronkowski factor was huge. He's the only game changer on that offense and when he's a decoy, who's going to burn you? Welker is a good player but he doesn't scare anyone. Hernandez is a good player but benefits from all the attention a healthy Gronkowski takes. As for their other wideouts, they need help.
delayjf
02-06-2012, 02:30 AM
(shocked he is from Nebraska and didn't even get recruited to Nebraska).
I'm shocked to - especially with that kind of athletic ability.
LottaKash
02-06-2012, 11:37 AM
I don't know if it was just me or what... but I enjoyed this game day more than any I have had in years.
LOL - We had all low-cal food, and the commercials were not great, but it was an excellent game.
What was your EXPERIENCE like?
I thought the game was great !...Of course, I am raised up on, Giants fan....
I watched the game with my 67yr old wife, and 74yr old SIL....But, we are all die-hard Giants people from a long time ago.....So I must say that we had a hoot of a time at this super bowl go round...
I can remember a time when my missus was a more ardent game-watcher, so this year, I got a bigger kick, than a long time ago, out of her, rootin for the team and all....We looked forward to the game, all day long....Munched out, as well...
They liked the 1/2-time show with Madonna, but not the finger-thing....Me, I could've cared less...
Still, if you are a fan of good football, most would admit that, it was a really good and watchable game.....I mean, down to the last play.....:jump:
Also, I thought that this year in particular, the playoffs games, were the most entertaining of most any year's, in my recent memory....
Regardless of who or what you were rooting for, all thruout the playoffs, there was so much drama and so much uncertainty, right up until the end of "all" the games...
What more could a fan want or expect from the game....?
I reall enjoyed the heck out of the end part, of this season's NFL...:ThmbUp:
best,
Dave Schwartz
02-07-2012, 11:01 AM
One of our users sent me this picture he took at the end of the game.
http://www.horsestreet.com/BBSImages/JeffJ-SB..jpg
vBulletin® v3.8.9, Copyright ©2000-2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.