Borel at Gulfstream

[Dahoss9698]

2 for 42 so far at the meet. Not too late to go to Oaklawn Calvin.

[Shelby]

Gulfstream must take some getting used to, eh?


I wish he would come back to Oaklawn 'cause I miss him. :)

[redshift1]

Tough jockey colony at Gulfstream, not many live horses left after Lopez, Castellano, Velazquez and Leparoux get their pickings.

[PhantomOnTour]

He's kind of like Robert Horry.
Pretty good player who had a knack for hitting the big one.

[David-LV]

Just an average rider, nothing special.

________
David-LV

[Shelby]

Just an average rider, nothing special.

________
David-LV

I could not disagree more.

[lamboguy]

for what its worth, at CHURCHILL DOWNS, i don't know of a better rider to have on a horse that does not have as good a numbers as other horses in the race.

the kid rarely gets on cadilac's, he is sometimes a tough guy to get along with. but he is not afraid to ride up a rail to get the win. not only that every time he gets on a horse's back he is giving 110% effort. you really can't ask for more in a rider.

[tbwinner]

Great rider at Churchill. Not the best, but certainly up there at CD.

Anywhere else? Not so much.

[Dahoss9698]

Just an average rider, nothing special.

________
David-LV


I agree.

[lamboguy]

2 for 42 so far at the meet. Not too late to go to Oaklawn Calvin.i think the reason's he went to gulfstream to begin with are that his brother went to the fair grounds this year, and he is probably working BUCK BRADLEY'S 3 year old, so he wants to make sure he gets on that horse in his derby preps.

other than that he has limited business, he rides a few for wilkes and carl naftgzer, and his agent gets him on a few others.

[garyscpa]

Too many turf races at GP for Calvin. I'd bet him on the dirt on the right horse.

[Shelby]

for what its worth, at CHURCHILL DOWNS, i don't know of a better rider to have on a horse that does not have as good a numbers as other horses in the race.

the kid rarely gets on cadilac's, he is sometimes a tough guy to get along with. but he is not afraid to ride up a rail to get the win. not only that every time he gets on a horse's back he is giving 110% effort. you really can't ask for more in a rider.

Yes.


He is a tough rider--and I mean tough as in he gives his all. I give him props for trying Gulfstream.

[Dahoss9698]

i think the reason's he went to gulfstream to begin with are that his brother went to the fair grounds this year, and he is probably working BUCK BRADLEY'S 3 year old, so he wants to make sure he gets on that horse in his derby preps.

other than that he has limited business, he rides a few for wilkes and carl naftgzer, and his agent gets him on a few others.

No, the reason he went to Gulfstream was to ride Ian Wilkes 3 year olds, most notably Motor City. He rides a few for Buff Bradley. Is he related to Buck Bradley?

[lamboguy]

so do you still think its not to late to go to oaklawn?

[Knowclew]

He's kind of like Robert Horry.
Pretty good player who had a knack for hitting the big one.

Great analogy!!!

[Zaf]

Great rider at Churchill. Not the best, but certainly up there at CD.

Anywhere else? Not so much.

Have to agree, remember 2 summers ago at Saratoga :ThmbDown:

Z

[Cardus]

No, the reason he went to Gulfstream was to ride Ian Wilkes 3 year olds, most notably Motor City. He rides a few for Buff Bradley. Is he related to Buck Bradley?

Buck is Buff's illiterate brother.

[Immanuel Kant]

the kid rarely gets on cadilac's, he is sometimes a tough guy to get along with. but he is not afraid to ride up a rail to get the win. not only that every time he gets on a horse's back he is giving 110% effort. you really can't ask for more in a rider.


110% effort? I give you Sun Jan 22 GP Race 3...

Sincerely,

Disgruntled bettor

[redshift1]

Breaking news !!!!!! Breaking news !!!!!! guess who's going to Oaklawn.

[Striker]

Announced today he is going back to Oaklawn and will start riding there Feb 4th.

[Shelby]

I just heard!!! I'm excited!! :jump::jump:

[Dahoss9698]

Wise choice.

[David-LV]

He might as well go back to Oaklawn, can't do any worse ???

_________
David-LV

[Dahoss9698]

It took Ramon Dominguez all of 4 mounts to pass Borel in terms of wins at the current Gulfstream meet.

[cnollfan]

Can Ramon duplicate that feat in the Kentucky Derby?

[Dahoss9698]

Can Ramon duplicate that feat in the Kentucky Derby?

Probably not. Has nothing to do with this thread, the topic or anything else really.

Borel's winning Derby rides have been terrific. It's just too bad he doesn't replicate those performances more consistently. If he did he wouldn't be 2 for the Gulfstream meet right now, running back to Oaklawn because he once again has shown he can't cut it in the big leagues.

I'm sure he'll show Terry Thompson what's up though when he gets back to Hot Springs.

[Cardus]

Probably not. Has nothing to do with this thread, the topic or anything else really.

Borel's winning Derby rides have been terrific. It's just too bad he doesn't replicate those performances more consistently. If he did he wouldn't be 2 for the Gulfstream meet right now, running back to Oaklawn because he once again has shown he can't cut it in the big leagues.

I'm sure he'll show Terry Thompson what's up though when he gets back to Hot Springs.

Hater.

[tbwinner]

Dahoss is speaking the truth. Just look at his records outside of Churchill and Oaklawn.

Saratoga 2 years back, Gulfstream this year, etc..

[precocity]

i will bet his azz at oaklawn :cool:

[Casino]

Is Dominguez as good as Borel at CD?The answer no.

If Dominguez took his act to CD he wouldnt sniff Borel.Jockeys have there circuits Borel was awful in NY.How would Dominguez do in California he would put up a 6 for 56.

Codero was imo is a top 5 rider of all time how many of his 7,000 victories were outside of NY.I think he tried the west coast once and he failed miserably...maybe someone here could loook that up.Borel is good rider is he elite,no,want bet against him at CD?

[FenceBored]

Hater.

Sharp post.

[Casino]

Probably not. Has nothing to do with this thread, the topic or anything else really.

Borel's winning Derby rides have been terrific. It's just too bad he doesn't replicate those performances more consistently. If he did he wouldn't be 2 for the Gulfstream meet right now, running back to Oaklawn because he once again has shown he can't cut it in the big leagues.

I'm sure he'll show Terry Thompson what's up though when he gets back to Hot Springs.

Have you seen the jockeys at the NYRA circuit?Is C. Velasquez that much better the T.Thompson?

[ten2oneormore]

Have you seen the jockeys at the NYRA circuit?Is C. Velasquez that much better the T.Thompson?

If you are talking about the winter meet Junior Alvarado is pretty good but yeah I Ortiz ,C Velasquez,A Garcia, and Curatolo are probably ahead of T Thompson.If you are talking about the circuit as a whole I you left out Castellano and J Velasquez.
I like Borel , he seems to love what he does as and has a passion for the game shown by his work ethic but to try and compare him to Ramon IMO is just playing devils advocate.There is no comparison.Even at Churchill Borel has gotten passed by Lanerie and Leparoux.He is more in the ballpark of Court,Mena,Albarado,Cruz , and Castlanon.At Gulfstream he might as well have a 50 lb anchor on his back the way his mounts run.Some even are logical horses but if they are speed horses he can't get them to settle on the lead and the fade if they are closers he basically puts them to sleep until they are too far out of it to have a chance.I know Gulfstream is a tough colony but Leparoux seems to have adjusted after having a rough time there.

[Dahoss9698]

Is Dominguez as good as Borel at CD?The answer no.

If Dominguez took his act to CD he wouldnt sniff Borel.Jockeys have there circuits Borel was awful in NY.How would Dominguez do in California he would put up a 6 for 56.

Codero was imo is a top 5 rider of all time how many of his 7,000 victories were outside of NY.I think he tried the west coast once and he failed miserably...maybe someone here could loook that up.Borel is good rider is he elite,no,want bet against him at CD?

As usual, you have no idea what you are talking about. Dominguez could ride in any circuit in this country and be successful. The same could be said for Castellano, Velazquez, Gomez, Bejarano, Rosario, Leparoux, etc.

[Casino]

As usual, you have no idea what you are talking about. Dominguez could ride in any circuit in this country and be successful. The same could be said for Castellano, Velazquez, Gomez, Bejarano, Rosario, Leparoux, etc.


Im sure Dominguez could ride anywhere,im sure you thought the same about Cauthen.
Can Dominguez ride in the west absolutely can he dominate like he does in NY,,,,dont think so.

[Dahoss9698]

Im sure Dominguez could ride anywhere,im sure you thought the same about Cauthen.
Can Dominguez ride in the west absolutely can he dominate like he does in NY,,,,dont think so.

Not right away, but because he is an exceptional rider, he would get the mounts that would enable him to be successful pretty quick.

The same could be said for the rest of the guys I mentioned.

[Casino]

Not right away, but because he is an exceptional rider, he would get the mounts that would enable him to be successful pretty quick.

The same could be said for the rest of the guys I mentioned.

OK lets say your right he will get the mounts that will enable him to be successful couldnt that be the same for Calvin at Gulfstream?

[Dahoss9698]

OK lets say your right he will get the mounts that will enable him to be successful couldnt that be the same for Calvin at Gulfstream?

No. Wouldn't he stay there if that was the case?

Good riders manage to get good mounts. It isn't a coincidence.

[Casino]

No. Wouldn't he stay there if that was the case?

Good riders manage to get good mounts. It isn't a coincidence.

Save it,Dominguez would go 6 for 56 if he went out west.

[cj]

Save it,Dominguez would go 6 for 56 if he went out west.

Someday, you'll get something right, just hang in there.

[turninforhome10]

Would not the relationship between jock agent and trainer colony need be considered? How hard would it be to break into a new colony when most trainers have preferred agents they like to deal with? I know Thompson's Agent Kenny Washburn and the guy is one hell of a business man and trainers know he can get races to go. From Borel's agents perspective, getting into the mainstream at GP would be tough. The colony and relationships are pretty tight. Selling a jockey would have to tough regardless of their prior record. A good horse and the access to it is what makes jockeys if they have a decent amount of skill.

[Beachbabe]

Save it,Dominguez would go 6 for 56 if he went out west.

Bejarano went out West after a nice couple of years on the Kentucky circuit and dominated out there (still is among the top 3 in Cal).
Dominguez, who is far superior at this point in his career than Bejarano was at that time he moved out West, would be among the top riders in Cal.
On a circuit where 8-horse fields or fuller, are like hen's teeth, its next to impossible that Dominguez would only have 6 wins in 56 mounts.

[cj]

One thing is clear, if Borel could get mounts in Graded Stakes for Pletcher he'd win about 90%. I think I could ride those horses, just don't fall off.

[turninforhome10]

One thing is clear, if Borel could get mounts in Graded Stakes for Pletcher he'd win about 90%. I think I could ride those horses, just don't fall off.


I remember the trainer I worked for saying one time to a new double bug jock that was riding a horse that was 8-5 and should win,
Jock: Any instructions?
Trainer: Don't fall off and you'll get your picture taken
We won and gave Armando Ruiz the second winner in his short lived career.
Kid rode 4 winners in 84 starts.

[Dahoss9698]

Would not the relationship between jock agent and trainer colony need be considered? How hard would it be to break into a new colony when most trainers have preferred agents they like to deal with? I know Thompson's Agent Kenny Washburn and the guy is one hell of a business man and trainers know he can get races to go. From Borel's agents perspective, getting into the mainstream at GP would be tough. The colony and relationships are pretty tight. Selling a jockey would have to tough regardless of their prior record. A good horse and the access to it is what makes jockeys if they have a decent amount of skill.

A top notch rider (which is what people call Borel) should not have an issue finding quality mounts. Don't you think trainers would want to ride a top notch rider? If he was so good, the mounts would be falling into his lap.

They aren't.

[turninforhome10]

Agreed. But being in the right place at the right time makes all the difference.
Selling a trainer to change anything is what I am referring to. First call is First call. Borel could be the best rider in the worlds but that does not change the fact there are certain ways to do business and spinning your first call jock for a superstar is not the way keep things moving forward long term.
I thought him moving to Gulfstream was a bad financial move as his riding style IMHO was not conducive to the way the track is. But maybe a good health move as he is not getting any younger and spending time in Hallendale might have been good for him.
Calvin is one hell of nice guy and I don't know of very many jocks that would stop by after training and help his brother clean stalls. When I met him at CD that is where he was and I chatted with him while he cleaned. The guy I worked for and the Borel's were all from the swamps and it was cool to listen to their stories of riding on the bush tracks. I still clean stalls the way he showed me.

[cj]

I thought him moving to Gulfstream was a bad financial move as his riding style IMHO was not conducive to the way the track is.

In my opinion, riders shouldn't have styles. They should adapt to the horse's style.

[Dahoss9698]

Agreed. But being in the right place at the right time makes all the difference.
Selling a trainer to change anything is what I am referring to. First call is First call. Borel could be the best rider in the worlds but that does not change the fact there are certain ways to do business and spinning your first call jock for a superstar is not the way keep things moving forward long term.


You're making a lot of excuses here and we're kind of twisting away from the point.

I'll leave it that if he was half as good as he is made out on the internet, he would be in more barns than he is. Based on watching him ride this meet, it's easy to see why he is 2 for the meet. He's lost out there.

Doesn't mean he isn't a nice guy. I'm sure he is.

[turninforhome10]

In my opinion, riders shouldn't have styles. They should adapt to the horse's style.

I agree, I don't want sound cold towards jocks but most are underrated as athletes and overrated to their real ability to make a average horse run that much better. Good horses make all those involved with it look good.

[turninforhome10]

You're making a lot of excuses here and we're kind of twisting away from the point.

I'll leave it that if he was half as good as he is made out on the internet, he would be in more barns than he is. Based on watching him ride this meet, it's easy to see why he is 2 for the meet. He's lost out there.

Doesn't mean he isn't a nice guy. I'm sure he is.


Not really defending the guy and I think you make a point about him being a little lost. I would have never advised the move. I think he will overbet at OP as he is an odds killer anyway. Don't get me wrong the guy is a good rider, but at this point in his career he should take nothing for granted he is not getting any younger. Jocks stay sound and have lots of wins when they stick with their bread and butter outfits Bailey, Day Pincay rode for the best outfits and followed those circuits. Would they ever have pulled something like this in their 50's. Not when you have the Phipps, and the like. This is where Calvin goes broke. Can really think of any of any industry leading type outfits that have him first call. His best mounts have come through pickup type mounts with shippers. His Derby winners IMO came from him knowing the track and getting the best trip Nothing wrong with that but turning that into first call for 30+% outfit at a place like GP is a stretch.
The jock colony at GP is a whole different breed that the colony at OP. Compare rosters and ask where you would want to be if you had a 50+ jock with no real first call connections.

[Grits]

I agree, I don't want sound cold towards jocks but most are underrated as athletes and overrated to their real ability to make a average horse run that much better. Good horses make all those involved with it look good.

Yep, and some of them, SOMEHOW, manage to win three Kentucky Derbys in five years, while the guy being hailed as the greatest jock in all the land and whose agent exercises his mounts in the a.m. rides for the top super trainer in all the land. But, SOMEHOW, the greatest jock has only managed one Kentucky Derby win in how many years of having a mount in it now?

Nope, ain't nothing ELITE about Calvin. He can sure ride in that mighty ELITE race with that 20 horse field though can't he. Odd, just pure odd! :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

Yep, and some of them, SOMEHOW, manage to win three Kentucky Derbys in five years, while the guy being hailed as the greatest jock in all the land and whose agent exercises his mounts in the a.m. rides for the top super trainer in all the land. But, SOMEHOW, the greatest jock has only managed one Kentucky Derby win in how many years of having a mount in it now? Who ever called Johnny V. the greatest jock in all the land? I assume that is who you were talking about (can't think of too many jocks other than JV whose agent could exercise his mounts in the mornings...lol)

[Grits]

Who ever called Johnny V. the greatest jock in all the land? I assume that is who you were talking about (can't think of too many jocks other than JV whose agent could exercise his mounts in the mornings...lol)

JV seems to come up often. Truth be told, I think Ramon's gonna ride into the sunset passing 'em all when careers are done.

[Dahoss9698]

Apparently horse racing comes down to one race, on the first Saturday in May. The day to day stuff is irrelevant.

Learn something new everyday.

[OntheRail]

A top notch rider (which is what people call Borel) should not have an issue finding quality mounts. Don't you think trainers would want to ride a top notch rider? If he was so good, the mounts would be falling into his lap.

They aren't.
In business clicks can and do over rule talent... Much easier to freeze out any competition then share the cookies jar.

[Dahoss9698]

In business clicks can and do over rule talent... Much easier to freeze out any competition then share the cookies jar.

So it's a concerned effort by the NY and Florida cliques to prevent Borel from riding top mounts? If that is the case, why does Leparoux seem to do okay at Saratoga and Gulfstream?

[cj]

So it's a concerned effort by the NY and Florida cliques to prevent Borel from riding top mounts? If that is the case, why does Leparoux seem to do okay at Saratoga and Gulfstream?

Obviously, it is because he is French...geez.

[OntheRail]

So it's a concerned effort by the NY and Florida cliques to prevent Borel from riding top mounts? If that is the case, why does Leparoux seem to do okay at Saratoga and Gulfstream?

If the bucket only holds some much feed... each additional person allowed to scoop out of it means less for those that already have an edge. So if a few can keep any others at arms length they will. Toga and GSP are more linked at the hip then Fair Grounds or OP. So that could explain JL plus he is French. :D

[turninforhome10]

A "zero sum game" as Mr Goren would put it.

[Dahoss9698]

If the bucket only holds some much feed... each additional person allowed to scoop out of it means less for those that already have an edge. So if a few can keep any others at arms length they will. Toga and GSP are more linked at the hip then Fair Grounds or OP. So that could explain JL plus he is French. :D

You're making excuses for the fact he has been dreadful the few times he stepped out of his comfort zone.

It's fine, I understand Borel has a cult like following by a certain element of racing fans. But I prefer to deal in reality and his success (or lack thereof) at Gulfstream is no surprise to anyone who watches him consistently.

[wisconsin]

In the end, who really cares about a jockey's success or lack thereof? So Calvin sucks outside of KY/ARK. Now what?