Race Condition help

[FiveWide]

Hi All,

Hopefully somebody can lend a hand. I've ran across several of these race conditions that I don't see how a horse fits. For instance, today 1-22-12 at AQU race 6 the conditions are as follows:

"...For fillies and mares four years old and upward which have never won three races or four years old." And the race is Clm 7500B.

How do you interpret the or four years old? Does it mean a 4 yr old can run no matter what the win/loss record is?
There is a horse Carmella Cee that has won 4 races so she clearly doesn't meet the non-winners of 3 condition. But she is a four year old. How does she get in this race?

Thanks in advance!

-Five

[Overlay]

"...For fillies and mares four years old and upward which have never won three races or four years old."
I would interpret that as saying that the race is open unrestrictedly to four-year-old fillies, regardless of how many races they have or have not won; and that mares five years of age and older can also enter, provided that they have never won three races.

[DJofSD]

Good question.

Maybe the conditions mean never having won a race in it's four year old year.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I would interpret that as saying that the race is open unrestrictedly to four-year-old fillies; and that mares five years of age and older can also enter, provided that they have never won three races.

Yes, its a combo condition for older non-threes and an open straight four-year-old race. It looks more odd this time of year when the three-year-olds have just turned four... you see this condition a lot it seems like back east now with people more willing (I guess) to run three-year-old multiple winners (more than three) against other straight threes and older that are still eligible for lifetime conditions.

[Linny]

Carmella Cee just won. She will remain eligible for this condition until they start using the "3 and up" phrasing where the 3yo's can have unlimited wins and the "4 and up" is conditioned. That probably won't happen for a few months.

Also, in NY I see this condition used with the additional option of "non winners of a race since." This means a 5yo which has won out past the condition can still get in if s/he is winless in the time designated. The "B" basically means that there are multiple conditions. The horse must be able to meet at least one of the conditions.

Some tracks (Parx being one) use multiple conditions in starters using the tern "and" rather than "or." They run starters with a starter level AND a condition like "Started for a $12.5k tag AND non winner of a race other than ..." For those you must meet BOTH conditions.

[Tom]

Getting a lot like harness.
This allows for cheap horses to run for artificially high money.

Whatever happened to your horse was a pig you dropped in claiming price?

[5k-claim]

Yes, its a combo condition for older non-threes and an open straight four-year-old race. It looks more odd this time of year when the three-year-olds have just turned four... you see this condition a lot it seems like back east now with people more willing (I guess) to run three-year-old multiple winners (more than three) against other straight threes and older that are still eligible for lifetime conditions.This is a claiming race. Why would it be surprising for someone with a 3yo that has run out of its lifetime conditions to be willing to go against an older horse that still has its lifetime conditions? Especially as it gets later in the year for the 3yos.

The surprise should be the older horses who are willing to step out of their conditions (in this case by running against horses with possibly more than 3 lifetime wins). I guess maybe they don't have races being carded/filled of their own (lifetime conditions)?

The top 3 finishers in this race were all 4 year-olds.

.

[lamboguy]

to answer the question: hypothetically the 4 year olds in the race could have already won 3 career races, while the horses that are 5 year olds and up could only have won 2 races. the condition does not restrict the 4 year old that has only won 1 or 2 races either

[johnhannibalsmith]

This is a claiming race. Why would it be surprising for someone with a 3yo that has run out of its lifetime conditions to be willing to go against an older horse that still has its lifetime conditions? Especially as it gets later in the year for the 3yos...

It isn't surprising. If that was implied, it wasn't intended. I don't run and haven't run anywhere that uses that particular conjoining of a condition and didn't want to imply that I was speaking from first-hand experience in conveying an intent.

[5k-claim]

It isn't surprising. If that was implied, it wasn't intended. I don't run and haven't run anywhere that uses that particular conjoining of a condition and didn't want to imply that I was speaking from first-hand experience in conveying an intent.Gotcha. I was thrown off by the placement of the "(I guess)" in your post.

Like you, I don't have any first-hand experience with such a condition, either. My first reaction to seeing it was that I liked it. But then it only took a few seconds of putting myself in the shoes of the guy with the older horse with lifetime conditions having to win against open claimers to conclude that it might not be so fun to enter. Even if the open claimers were a year younger. And especially if these races were being written as substitutes for some older Non-Winner Lifetime races.

.

[Linny]

NY has been running them for a couple of years but with greater frequency of late. Basically the younger horses (in this case 4yos, though in about late March it will be 3's) are most likely to have "winning profiles" and can have unlimited wins, they are typically good bets against 2-fer type older horses. Those with older 2-fer runners are hoping that they can benefit from an age and experience edge.

In a couple of months horses like Carmella Cee won't be eligible because it will be written for "3 and up" with the restriction coming on the over 3's.

[startngate]

Basically the rule when you read race conditions and see the word 'or' is to just treat everything after it as a new condition ... until you see the word 'or' come up again (yes, sometimes you will see it multiple times, especially in harness conditions).

You will often see a break in conditions between 4yo and older in Jan/Feb since the 3yo's have just turned 4. The new year also gives you the NW in 2011-2012 for a few months, and then it becomes NW of the year. Just a way to extend conditions for a couple of months.

The key for all of these 'multiple condition' races is to see which horse benefits from the secondary conditions the most. That's likely who the race was written for.

[cnollfan]

I believe that these conditions strongly favor the younger horse that has won more races than the older horse that has not.