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View Full Version : DRF increases PP's subscription price by 20%


BombsAway Bob
01-18-2012, 03:43 PM
DAILY RACING FORM using the scorched-earth policy, sales must have been down 15% last year, so they raise prices by 20%!
DRF increased the cost of their 60-Card Annual Plan
from $99.95 to $119.95?
i Can't believe they're Gonna Make me switch PPs after 30years!
http://www.drf.com/store/classic-past-performances%20

Tom
01-18-2012, 03:53 PM
Nothing like a price increase to spur sales!
I gave up DRF PPs a long time ago.

tbwinner
01-18-2012, 03:56 PM
I am about ready to change to Bris. I'm tired of paying $150/month for my PP subscription.

If I pull past performances prior to raceday on Bris/Twinspires will I still get credit/not charged for those if I make the required wager on raceday, or does it apply the day you pulled the PPs?

jimmy m
01-18-2012, 04:02 PM
Iam ready also to give up on the Form i know the old adage is you need to spend money to make money but i play mulitple tracks im still old school i need the paper version but here at Prm it is 14 Bucks on a Saturday for east and west coast forms.What i do not understand is why is it so Expensive on the net.3.50 for 3 tracks and u are using ur own paper and printer.2 50 per card on Xpressbet.

misscashalot
01-18-2012, 04:11 PM
http://www.trks2day.com/trks2day.html

netbet
01-18-2012, 04:30 PM
You only need to wager at least $2 on the race date/track that you download PPs for.

If I download PP's for Jan 19th Santa Anita card....just need to wager on the SA card on Jan 19th...

I am about ready to change to Bris. I'm tired of paying $150/month for my PP subscription.

If I pull past performances prior to raceday on Bris/Twinspires will I still get credit/not charged for those if I make the required wager on raceday, or does it apply the day you pulled the PPs?

bob60566
01-18-2012, 05:18 PM
As stated in the past Download the Data single comma past performance from Bris and use with the free downloadable PP Generator and you now have a excellent Past performance to read or handicap if you so choose to use the options all this for $1.
Unbeatable price as i play one track per day mostly.

Mac:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Light
01-18-2012, 05:22 PM
You only need to wager at least $2 on the race date/track that you download PPs for.



Incorrect. You just need to wager 10 cents (a random super will do) to get each race card.(Ultimate PP's not data files). I do it all the time and have had no problems with my account.However they do discount the $1 data files to 80 cents each if you wager around $300 a month.

RXB
01-18-2012, 05:38 PM
For an occasional/casual player, BRIS is much more reasonably priced and their PDF offerings are as good as DRF's.

As a Mac-only guy, Formulator is almost my only good web-based option. Fortunately it is a quality product-- pricing notwithstanding. I'm hoping that file exporting, card customization, and auto-scratching functionalities are about to be introduced in order to compensate for the significant price hike.

One thing I'd like to point out to DRF: as tracks continue to reduce their racing dates, the number of cards offered by the "unlimited" monthly/quarterly/annual plans is reduced. So DRF is steadily delivering less product to its unlimited customers than in previous years, yet charging quite a lot more.

takeout
01-18-2012, 05:45 PM
i Can't believe they're Gonna Make me switch PPs after 30years!They made me switch in the early Ď90ís.

GaryG
01-18-2012, 06:01 PM
There is just too much info on Formulator to make me want to switch. Just a click away from race replays and on the charts have links to the pp's of all runners. Not to mention any kind of trainer data you could want. Last time I saw BRIS the speed and pace figures were horrible.

lamboguy
01-18-2012, 06:03 PM
i think that's cheap, they should charge more like everything else in horseracing.

bob60566
01-18-2012, 06:18 PM
i think that's cheap, they should charge more like everything else in horseracing.

I was at Otb in November and the machine charged me $3.50 for print sheet of Drf for one track Ouch.

Mac:ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

dansan
01-18-2012, 06:57 PM
move to Nevada you can look at the DRF for free at just about any casino lol

Cholly
01-18-2012, 07:29 PM
DAILY RACING FORM using the scorched-earth policy, sales must have been down 15% last year, so they raise prices by 20%!
DRF increased the cost of their 60-Card Annual Plan
from $99.95 to $119.95?
i Can't believe they're Gonna Make me switch PPs after 30years!
http://www.drf.com/store/classic-past-performances%20

For the monthly unlimited plan, theyíve likewise instituted a 20% price hike from $100 to $120. I bet thru Twinspires and so would like to switch to the free BRIS, but their PPís are so visually cluttered it hurts my eyes.

Iím fond of Formulatorís ability to only print 6 running lines (when you look deeper than six races, my thought is youíre looking at some other horse). If I could get BRIS to do that, and drop all those pace numbers to give me some white space, Iíd give DRF the boot. I donít know if BRISís Generator software would do that, but Iíve been told that Generator wonít run on Apple.

bob60566
01-18-2012, 08:13 PM
For the monthly unlimited plan, theyíve likewise instituted a 20% price hike from $100 to $120. I bet thru Twinspires and so would like to switch to the free BRIS, but their PPís are so visually cluttered it hurts my eyes.

Iím fond of Formulatorís ability to only print 6 running lines (when you look deeper than six races, my thought is youíre looking at some other horse). If I could get BRIS to do that, and drop all those pace numbers to give me some white space, Iíd give DRF the boot. I donít know if BRISís Generator software would do that, but Iíve been told that Generator wonít run on Apple.

It can and more, Apple i have no idea

RXB
01-18-2012, 08:30 PM
All of the BRIS programs require Windows. Not much other than DRF Formulator will run on a Mac OS.

BlueShoe
01-18-2012, 09:43 PM
If the online price has been increased, does that mean that an increase for the printed DRF is not far behind? It may have already happened for all I know. Since I am on a self imposed hiatus from racing have not been to the track or otb since Dec. 30. Even before that, a couple of liquor stores that carried the Form in my area suddenly raised their price from $6 to $7. It was $5.75 at the track or otb. Nothing like raising prices because things are slow is there? Told one guy where he could put his seven dollar Form. Now must drive even farther from home to get a Form without being gouged. If the price is going up again after I go back, think that it might be time to start playing a little poker to get my gambling fix.

JustRalph
01-18-2012, 09:58 PM
You guys are still betting racing ? .........?

:bang:

PhantomOnTour
01-18-2012, 11:42 PM
I made the switch to BRIS about 2yrs ago and i am happy with the move:
1) cost blows DRF away, esp. as a TwinSpires member
2) BRIS pp's have way more info than DRF, esp. pedigree & sales info for 2yr olds
3) their PP Generator program has saved me time and enhanced my game

DRF Formulator does have some neat stuff, esp. the ability to view charts at the click of a button and the trainer research tools...but the cost is too high imo.

proximity
01-19-2012, 12:33 AM
$1500 now for an annual subscription?????

thank god i renewed when it was still only :rolleyes: :rolleyes: $1250.

WHEN WILL BRIS STEP UP AND GET SOME UNLIMITED SUBSCRIPTION PLANS TO THE DATAFILES AND CRIPPLE DRF BUSINESS??????????????

certainly there is a cost to pps, but it shouldn't be more than $100 a month.

how's the game supposed to attract new fans when people can play poker for free mr crist??

jelly
01-19-2012, 12:36 AM
The cost of PPs is definitely hurting the game,Could be one of the reasons that handle is down over $5 Billion.


The Industry needs to get free basic PPs out there for all who want to bet on the game.

ranchwest
01-19-2012, 02:20 AM
DAILY RACING FORM using the scorched-earth policy, sales must have been down 15% last year, so they raise prices by 20%!
DRF increased the cost of their 60-Card Annual Plan
from $99.95 to $119.95?
i Can't believe they're Gonna Make me switch PPs after 30years!
http://www.drf.com/store/classic-past-performances%20

IMHO, they're not making you -- they're begging you.

proximity
01-19-2012, 05:27 AM
should a racing form subscription (not even counting paper and toner, mind you) cost more than my car insurance mr crist??

windoor
01-19-2012, 08:37 AM
DAILY RACING FORM using the scorched-earth policy, sales must have been down 15% last year, so they raise prices by 20%!
DRF increased the cost of their 60-Card Annual Plan
from $99.95 to $119.95?
i Can't believe they're Gonna Make me switch PPs after 30years!
http://www.drf.com/store/classic-past-performances%20

I Use the HDW data plan at $90 per month for all North American tracks.

If you sign up through Jeff Platts J/Capper you get the Silver database program for free. A very good deal I think, and an easy way to explore database handicapping.

Windoor

netbet
01-19-2012, 11:05 AM
What is the major differences between JCapper silver and platinum.
Love the idea of getting data for all the tracks plus a handicapping database.

How steep is the learning curve for JCapper?

Thank you.

Off to search this forum for JCapper items.

Patrick

Fingal
01-19-2012, 11:36 AM
IMHO, they're not making you -- they're begging you.

They made that choice for me a long time ago & I've never looked back. Making the switch to Bris at first was different, but like any breakup, one eventually gets over it.

IMO Bris-DRF, it's like night & day.

windoor
01-19-2012, 01:17 PM
What is the major differences between JCapper silver and platinum.
Love the idea of getting data for all the tracks plus a handicapping database.

How steep is the learning curve for JCapper?

Thank you.

Off to search this forum for JCapper items.

Patrick


If I remember correctly, the Platinum makes use of some proprietary speed/pace numbers and costs more for the data and use of these factors.

I found it quite difficult to get it to do what I wanted, but I had no prior experience and am old to boot. YMMV.

I eventually got it to work to my satisfaction, and couldn't be happier with the results.

Even if you just use the data, it is still a good deal from what I see.

Regards,

Windoor

BombsAway Bob
01-19-2012, 01:33 PM
I made the switch to BRIS about 2yrs ago and i am happy with the move:
1) cost blows DRF away, esp. as a TwinSpires member
2) BRIS pp's have way more info than DRF, esp. pedigree & sales info for 2yr olds
3) their PP Generator program has saved me time and enhanced my game

DRF Formulator does have some neat stuff, esp. the ability to view charts at the click of a button and the trainer research tools...but the cost is too high imo.
A few months ago, i got to test out TwinSpires Express interface, & it
really blew me away! Formulator Basic is what i buy, & it doesn't include
Sire/Dam production records, or race chart results.
TS Express has those, along with LIFETIME PPs INCLUDING WORKOUTS,
along with result charts for EVERY RACE IN a horses career!
But for Beyer figs, DRF would be begging for business in 3 years time,
unless they offer some better deals. Online prices are a bigger crime
than the paper version, where labor/printing/handling costs come into
play, along with retailers' cut.

mistergee
01-19-2012, 02:50 PM
If the online price has been increased, does that mean that an increase for the printed DRF is not far behind? It may have already happened for all I know. Since I am on a self imposed hiatus from racing have not been to the track or otb since Dec. 30. Even before that, a couple of liquor stores that carried the Form in my area suddenly raised their price from $6 to $7. It was $5.75 at the track or otb. Nothing like raising prices because things are slow is there? Told one guy where he could put his seven dollar Form. Now must drive even farther from home to get a Form without being gouged. If the price is going up again after I go back, think that it might be time to start playing a little poker to get my gambling fix.
yes I believe going up to $7.75 about 03-15-12

Track Collector
01-19-2012, 03:00 PM
$1500 now for an annual subscription?????

thank god i renewed when it was still only :rolleyes: :rolleyes: $1250.

WHEN WILL BRIS STEP UP AND GET SOME UNLIMITED SUBSCRIPTION PLANS TO THE DATAFILES AND CRIPPLE DRF BUSINESS??????????????

certainly there is a cost to pps, but it shouldn't be more than $100 a month.

how's the game supposed to attract new fans when people can play poker for free mr crist??

What????? I only paid $1199 for MY annual subscription. :lol:

Seriously, the cost of data plans can be overwhelming.:mad:

highnote
01-19-2012, 03:10 PM
With all the illegal downloading of movies and music that is supposedly going on, you'd think there would be a site to download racing forms illegally. :D

jk3521
01-19-2012, 03:31 PM
With all the illegal downloading of movies and music that is supposedly going on, you'd think there would be a site to download racing forms illegally. :D
I guess pirates don't play the horses.

proximity
01-19-2012, 03:52 PM
But for Beyer figs, DRF would be begging for business in 3 years time,
unless they offer some better deals. .

this post basically sums it all up.

bris getting some unlimited plans for the data files would put another nail in the drf coffin.

proximity
01-19-2012, 03:53 PM
What????? I only paid $1199 for MY annual subscription. :lol:

Seriously, the cost of data plans can be overwhelming.:mad:

if there's anyone i know that could swing such a deal it would be you. :)

proximity
01-19-2012, 03:58 PM
With all the illegal downloading of movies and music that is supposedly going on, you'd think there would be a site to download racing forms illegally. :D

there was at least one user name and password that i'm sure many horsemen were using (yes, i even used it a time or two:blush: ) but the one i knew of no longer works. i.t. is the drf's weakness and if they'd improve that they could develop some more user friendly plans and maybe even some cheaper "one click" unlimited plans where accounts are charged extra for each time over one that a pp card is clicked on (maybe giving an allowance of a half dozen extra clicks a month to allow for mistakes).

duncan04
01-19-2012, 05:02 PM
Used to buy the DRF when I went to the track. Now thanks to Twinspires I download the card before I go. Save it on my iPad and make a bet online, and take my iPad to the track! Free pp's. Saves $$

lamboguy
01-19-2012, 05:12 PM
Used to buy the DRF when I went to the track. Now thanks to Twinspires I download the card before I go. Save it on my iPad and make a bet online, and take my iPad to the track! Free pp's. Saves $$
they also have bris stats which are pretty good.

i just noticed that they have a real good betting pad since yesterday on the express platform.

they have certainly made some improvements since the day they took over youbet. they still have plenty more to do to be as good as youbet was, such as the stable alert's and multi-track view's, but i imagine those things are not they easy to get right and take time.

jelly
01-19-2012, 06:46 PM
yes I believe going up to $7.75 about 03-15-12




All the more reason for the Industry to get involved with the distribution of PPs.

lamboguy
01-19-2012, 07:07 PM
they also have bris stats which are pretty good.

i just noticed that they have a real good betting pad since yesterday on the express platform.

they have certainly made some improvements since the day they took over youbet. they still have plenty more to do to be as good as youbet was, such as the stable alert's and multi-track view's, but i imagine those things are not they easy to get right and take time.
i just bet on it, it works on the explore browser, i had trouble with chrome

highnote
01-19-2012, 07:42 PM
Used to buy the DRF when I went to the track. Now thanks to Twinspires I download the card before I go. Save it on my iPad and make a bet online, and take my iPad to the track! Free pp's. Saves $$


It does save you money, but someone must pay DRF for the data.

Twinspires must have a deal with DRF. This would be a promotional expense for Twinspires. I suppose.

Pace Cap'n
01-19-2012, 07:53 PM
All the more reason for the Industry to get involved with the distribution of PPs.

The industry is involved in it. That's who furnishes the data, and no doubt why it costs so much.

bob60566
01-19-2012, 09:18 PM
The industry is involved in it. That's who furnishes the data, and no doubt why it costs so much.

The orginal data is from one company is this correct.

Mac:)

jelly
01-20-2012, 12:30 AM
EQUIBASE



the Jockey Club and TRA, made an initial investment in Equibase nearly 20 years ago so that the industry could own its data. The hope I had then, and the hope I still have today, is that the people who run Equibase will look beyond the bottom line of their profit and loss statement, and begin to use the statistics that the industry owns to make horse racing more popular and more accessible. All they’re doing now is making Equibase as profitable as it can be. It’s a bean counter's mentality, and it’s the kind of business philosophy that will stifle any prospect of industry growth.

http://www.paulickreport.com:8080/index.php/news/ray-s-paddock/equibase-strikes-out/?commentStart=60

tbwinner
01-20-2012, 12:48 AM
Using BRIS PPs for the first time tomorrow alongside Thorograph. Will miss the Look and feel of DRF but I will get used to it...

duncan04
01-20-2012, 02:17 AM
It does save you money, but someone must pay DRF for the data.

Twinspires must have a deal with DRF. This would be a promotional expense for Twinspires. I suppose.

Nobody pays DRF for data. All the data comes from Equibase.

highnote
01-20-2012, 02:21 AM
Nobody pays DRF for data. All the data comes from Equibase.


So DRF publishes data for free?

duncan04
01-20-2012, 02:26 AM
So DRF publishes data for free?

No what DRF charges customers helps pay for them getting the data from Equibase

highnote
01-20-2012, 02:33 AM
Nobody pays DRF for data. All the data comes from Equibase.


That's right. I forgot. Equibase collects all the data, nowadays.

However, is Twinspires giving away DRF pps or BRIS pps? If they're giving away DRF pps then I would think DRF gets some kind of royalty for letting Twinspires use their format.

If I bought data from Equibase and sold it in a form that looked like DRF I'm sure it would be a violation of their copyright.

Now, I could change the format -- like BRIS does -- and then be able to sell Equibase data. But if Twinspires is giving away DRF pps then I don't see how DRF is not getting paid for it.

duncan04
01-20-2012, 02:42 AM
That's right. I forgot. Equibase collects all the data, nowadays.

However, is Twinspires giving away DRF pps or BRIS pps? If they're giving away DRF pps then I would think DRF gets some kind of royalty for letting Twinspires use their format.

If I bought data from Equibase and sold it in a form that looked like DRF I'm sure it would be a violation of their copyright.

Now, I could change the format -- like BRIS does -- and then be able to sell Equibase data. But if Twinspires is giving away DRF pps then I don't see how DRF is not getting paid for it.


The free ones with a bet on the track download are the BRIS ones, since TWINSPIRES owns BRIS or something like that

highnote
01-20-2012, 03:10 AM
The free ones with a bet on the track download are the BRIS ones, since TWINSPIRES owns BRIS or something like that


It makes sense for Twinspires to give away their own product rather than a competitor's!

proximity
01-20-2012, 03:17 AM
if i used those free bris pps i'd have to get a new toner about every other day. it must be about 40 densely packed pages per card.

takeout
01-20-2012, 07:50 AM
The free ones with a bet on the track download are the BRIS ones, since TWINSPIRES owns BRIS or something like thatI think CDI owns them both now.

Iíve always wondered what the deal was (is?) between BRIS and DRF. That thing always seemed screwy to me. However, I see that BRIS no longer has the ďmade with DRF dataĒ part on its home page any more like it used to.

All I know is that DRF and BRIS still have the same handful of wrong trainer names that Iíve been looking at for decades now. The track program has them right. TSN had them right, until they killed it.

I view DRF as a lost cause in this regard but I donít get why BRIS doesnít use the right ones like they were doing in the TSN files. :confused:

teddy
01-20-2012, 10:54 AM
You will pay dearly for those free forms. I used to download 5 and forget to bet a few , cancelled cards, scratched horses and such when I prebet, ran over $120 for a short trial. No free lunch.

Tom
01-20-2012, 11:13 AM
Ever go into a diner and pay for a menu?

Racing is run by idiots.

jerry-g
01-20-2012, 11:45 AM
As the King once said, "It's a puzzlement!" The greater the puzzle the better the price on the overlays. If they ever do give us an impeccable database, the computer folks would clean them out overnight and they would not have enough money left over to light a 40w light bulb by high noon on Sunday.

PhantomOnTour
01-20-2012, 11:51 AM
As the King once said, "It's a puzzlement!" The greater the puzzle the better the price on the overlays. If they ever do give us an impeccable database, the computer folks would clean them out overnight and they would not have enough money left over to light a 40w light bulb by high noon on Sunday.
Who are THEY and THEM?

How would computer folks clean THEM out?

speed
01-20-2012, 12:28 PM
As the King once said, "It's a puzzlement!" The greater the puzzle the better the price on the overlays. If they ever do give us an impeccable database, the computer folks would clean them out overnight and they would not have enough money left over to light a 40w light bulb by high noon on Sunday.
Jerry bettors do not wager against the track, except in minus pools. We wager against each other. Which is why the game is beatable.

PacePal_Pete
01-20-2012, 12:33 PM
check out www.hkjc.com A true non-profit.

Hong Kong ran 776 races and bet more last year than the US in 46,000 races. They offer free pp's, free video of workouts, free videos linked in the pp's and free charts. They have an expert in the paddock whose only job is to track the appearance and condition of each horse when saddled and in morning workouts.

They out bet us 59-1. Granted horse racing is the only legal gambling, but certainly info drives betting.

netbet
01-20-2012, 03:39 PM
In the past, BRIS has made their PP's free for the month of February...keep an eye out.

Never understood why PPs are not offered for free on the big race days, special events and such.

Also, look at the Australian races....free info

Valento
01-24-2012, 12:35 AM
DRF is playing a major part in killing horse racing.

I've played this game for 26 years and have used a paper or online version of DRF every day. The entire game is based 100% on data. If you took away ALL data form on each horse, it would be a bunch of equines running in a circle...hardly interesting to anyone. The data, in my opinion, is the heart and sole of the game.

The fact that DRF is raising their prices AGAIN by 20% in the state of racing and the state of this economy is appalling....and I'm one to usually give businesses a benefit of the doubt.

I don't know what the right answers are. Clearly, DRF makes a killing on selling the past performances and certainly have shareholders to consider. I don't think we'll ever see a day in which their data will be free. I just never thought I would see such outrageous prices.

Never thought I'd say this...but these prices might push me from the sport alltogether. I've been tetering on the edge for years. Might have pushed me over this time.

jelly
01-24-2012, 01:22 AM
The DRF doesn't have to give away anything.It's Equibase that needs to give away free basic pps.

Valento
01-24-2012, 01:25 AM
The DRF doesn't have to give away anything.It's Equibase that needs to give away free basic pps.


Why would they? What incentive do they have?

David-LV
01-24-2012, 01:34 AM
In Las Vegas where we get all the PP's and handicapping sheets for free there is competition for the customer by the many race and sports books that are in close proximity to each other.
Good place to move to if you are a retired horse player.
Cheap housing, low taxes, and plenty of cheap or free food are also offered.

:):):)

_________
David-LV

thaskalos
01-24-2012, 01:41 AM
In Las Vegas where we get all the PP's and handicapping sheets for free there is competition for the customer by the many race and sports books that are in close proximity to each other.
Good place to move to if you are a retired horse player.
Cheap housing, low taxes, and plenty of cheap or free food are also offered.

:):):)

_________
David-LV

If only we could sell our houses for a decent price in today's market...then we'd be on our way.

proximity
01-24-2012, 05:16 AM
i don't think the drf should be free. it isn't just equibase data it is a premium product with formulator, beyer, and moss figures.

tsn was $60 a month (which was probably reasonable) and i'd say drf should definitely be more, but not twice as much. $125 a month?

$100 a month or $1000 a year (paid in advance) is probably about the correct price. but that is just my opinion.

BlueShoe
01-24-2012, 09:16 AM
In Las Vegas where we get all the PP's and handicapping sheets for free there is competition for the customer by the many race and sports books that are in close proximity to each other.
Would you care to elaborate and be specific and name the places that comp or discount Forms? There is a recent thread about LV racebooks, but many of the comments expressed personal preferences about this or that racebook based on such trivial things as food and drink service or ambience of the place, which are meaningless to myself. Give me some dump downtown, out on Boulder Highway, or an outlying locals joint, that has good low level comps such as a generous Form policy and decent customer service and I am content. Could care less about the fancy high end clubs on the Strip, down to earth and practical does it for me.

castaway01
01-24-2012, 10:30 AM
DRF is playing a major part in killing horse racing.

I've played this game for 26 years and have used a paper or online version of DRF every day. The entire game is based 100% on data. If you took away ALL data form on each horse, it would be a bunch of equines running in a circle...hardly interesting to anyone. The data, in my opinion, is the heart and sole of the game.

The fact that DRF is raising their prices AGAIN by 20% in the state of racing and the state of this economy is appalling....and I'm one to usually give businesses a benefit of the doubt.

I don't know what the right answers are. Clearly, DRF makes a killing on selling the past performances and certainly have shareholders to consider. I don't think we'll ever see a day in which their data will be free. I just never thought I would see such outrageous prices.

Never thought I'd say this...but these prices might push me from the sport alltogether. I've been tetering on the edge for years. Might have pushed me over this time.

If you think DRF is "making a killing" these days, you're really not paying attention to the market. Their customer base is diminishing and they're struggling to hang on, which is why they're boosting prices---they're trying to get what cash they can out of a small but loyal audience. I imagine they're comparing what they offer to the prices charged by Thoro-Graph or other online data providers and thinking they can boost rates and still compete. However, unless more people start betting on horse racing, all DRF will be doing is hanging on, not thriving. If you compare the company valuation in the 1970s vs. what it is now, you'll better understand how it has shrunk.

While anyone has the right to complain about a price increase and switch products, I have to admit I don't understand how the price of past performances going up by a dollar or two would make you quit wagering. Are you betting $2 a day where this is your whole budget? For people betting hundreds of dollars a day, why would a dollar make a difference? And again, if it does, that's fine, but for most people it's only a tiny fraction of what they're wagering.

PaceAdvantage
01-24-2012, 11:03 AM
If you think DRF is "making a killing" these days, you're really not paying attention to the market. Their customer base is diminishing and they're struggling to hang on, which is why they're boosting prices---they're trying to get what cash they can out of a small but loyal audience. I imagine they're comparing what they offer to the prices charged by Thoro-Graph or other online data providers and thinking they can boost rates and still compete. However, unless more people start betting on horse racing, all DRF will be doing is hanging on, not thriving. If you compare the company valuation in the 1970s vs. what it is now, you'll better understand how it has shrunk.

While anyone has the right to complain about a price increase and switch products, I have to admit I don't understand how the price of past performances going up by a dollar or two would make you quit wagering. Are you betting $2 a day where this is your whole budget? For people betting hundreds of dollars a day, why would a dollar make a difference? And again, if it does, that's fine, but for most people it's only a tiny fraction of what they're wagering. Replies like this one are what makes this board worthwhile. Well thought out, fact-based and sensible on every point.

Well done.

jelly
01-24-2012, 11:05 AM
Why would they? What incentive do they have?



To attract more people to horseracing.

BombsAway Bob
01-24-2012, 12:05 PM
Replies like this one are what makes this board worthwhile. Well thought out, fact-based and sensible on every point.

Well done.
Well thought out... absolutely...
judging by your reply, you feel a 20% increase, on top of
annual increases of around 10% the past
four years, is a reasonable good business practice?
DRF used to offer 3cards-same day for $5.95... Gone
10-card subscription was $17.95 four years ago...
This Year,10-card plan is $27.95...
nice way to go out of business, imho
their costs in online sales are relatively stable.
These increases are price gouging to cover lost Newsstand sales...
the tail is wagging the dog...
http://www.drf.com/store/classic-past-performances%20

David-LV
01-24-2012, 12:34 PM
Would you care to elaborate and be specific and name the places that comp or discount Forms? There is a recent thread about LV racebooks, but many of the comments expressed personal preferences about this or that racebook based on such trivial things as food and drink service or ambience of the place, which are meaningless to myself. Give me some dump downtown, out on Boulder Highway, or an outlying locals joint, that has good low level comps such as a generous Form policy and decent customer service and I am content. Could care less about the fancy high end clubs on the Strip, down to earth and practical does it for me.

All Station Casinos Locations have the same & best comp and form policies.

If you never make a bet at Stations, you will never pay more then one dollar for a form.

When you reach the Platinum level on your card all forms are free.

You get 2% in comps for all WPS bets, and 4% in comps for all exotic bets.


http://www.stationcasinos.com/pdf/allnewbp_rules.pdf

________
David-LV

mountainman
01-24-2012, 01:01 PM
DRF is playing a major part in killing horse racing.

I've played this game for 26 years and have used a paper or online version of DRF every day. The entire game is based 100% on data. If you took away ALL data form on each horse, it would be a bunch of equines running in a circle...hardly interesting to anyone. The data, in my opinion, is the heart and sole of the game.

The fact that DRF is raising their prices AGAIN by 20% in the state of racing and the state of this economy is appalling....and I'm one to usually give businesses a benefit of the doubt.

I don't know what the right answers are. Clearly, DRF makes a killing on selling the past performances and certainly have shareholders to consider. I don't think we'll ever see a day in which their data will be free. I just never thought I would see such outrageous prices.

Never thought I'd say this...but these prices might push me from the sport alltogether. I've been tetering on the edge for years. Might have pushed me over this time.

Hey, pal..how have you been? Saw this post and want to concur. As an official, i'm furnished with free forms, but purchase pp's online that offer formulator. It's a useful feature that has cut my prep time for the show in half. Sounds like i'm about to get gouged. No surprise from a company that enjoys -and has earned-a relative monopoly for its main product.

Not a bris fan, but do wish they could give drf a run for their money. With the exception of Joe Devivo, not a fan of the good folks at drf , either. Smug, inflexible and not pleasant to deal with behind the scenes. At least that's been my experience. Although it's a courtesty often extended other oddsmakers, they even refused me complimentary pp's to do mnr's morning line. Their stated reason was apprehension that i'd abuse the privilege by circulating the password amongst my friends. REALLY?? I'm a state-licensed official and well known as a man of my word.

mountainman
01-24-2012, 01:19 PM
DAILY RACING FORM using the scorched-earth policy, sales must have been down 15% last year, so they raise prices by 20%!
DRF increased the cost of their 60-Card Annual Plan
from $99.95 to $119.95?
i Can't believe they're Gonna Make me switch PPs after 30years!
http://www.drf.com/store/classic-past-performances%20


Good thread, pal. Any luck so far this year?

BombsAway Bob
01-24-2012, 01:51 PM
Good thread, pal. Any luck so far this year?
luckily still playing off a good December.
January is my worst month of year, W/L wise over past 5 years.
Miss my Mon/Tue. Mountain fix...
Los Alamitos has smallest fields of year Jan/Feb, my weekend go-to track.
Sub Mountain Monday nights with Sammy Houston on Mon. afternoon,
& use your Bias notes for Mtr.shippers Tuesday nights @CharlesTown.
Hope you're doing well, & hope to get you tweeting this meet!

mountainman
01-24-2012, 02:00 PM
For people betting hundreds of dollars a day, why would a dollar make a difference?

Or 2 bucks next time, then 3..4..5. And aren't the people wagering hundies a day buying lots of forms over the course of a season? So. we aren't really talking about one-single-dollar, are we? We are talking about a 20% hike-which is hefty by any standard.

Also, haven't sinister track execs and politicians been (rightfully) villified for expressing this EXACT logic when implementing usurious take hikes? And haven't we horseplayers taken EXTREME umbrage at this "the idiots are addicted and will still bet at ANY takeout rate" logic???????????????????

Good post overall, but must take sharp exception to the quoted sentence.

Valento
01-24-2012, 03:00 PM
Hey, pal..how have you been? Saw this post and want to concur. As an official, i'm furnished with free forms, but purchase pp's online that offer formulator. It's a useful feature that has cut my prep time for the show in half. Sounds like i'm about to get gouged. No surprise from a company that enjoys -and has earned-a relative monopoly for its main product.

Not a bris fan, but do wish they could give drf a run for their money. With the exception of Joe Devivo, not a fan of the good folks at drf , either. Smug, inflexible and not pleasant to deal with behind the scenes. At least that's been my experience. Although it's a courtesty often extended other oddsmakers, they even refused me complimentary pp's to do mnr's morning line. Their stated reason was apprehension that i'd abuse the privilege by circulating the password amongst my friends. REALLY?? I'm a state-licensed official and well known as a man of my word.

Hello Mark-- Doing well, thanks for asking :) Hope all is well with you.

I'm not usually one to complain about the cost of information as I know it's a business. But, I really believe if DRF had real competition, they would figure out a way to sell their product at half the price and remain competitive.

Unfortunately, it's one in a long line of variables that make this game virtually impossible to beat and less likely to encourage friends or family to get involved.

Just overall disappointing.

BlueShoe
01-24-2012, 03:33 PM
All Station Casinos Locations have the same & best comp and form policies.

If you never make a bet at Stations, you will never pay more then one dollar for a form.

When you reach the Platinum level on your card all forms are free.

You get 2% in comps for all WPS bets, and 4% in comps for all exotic bets.


http://www.stationcasinos.com/pdf/allnewbp_rules.pdf

________
David-LV
Thanks for the quick response, this is the kind of practical info I was looking for. :ThmbUp: Las Vegas has become so huge and spread out, with dozens of places with racebooks, that it is hard to keep up with things. From reading the Stations rules link, it would seem that the players card can be used at any Stations property, an advantage if moving around checking different books looking for the preferred one. Have been to about a third of the LV Stations, most time was at Boulders. Comped or discounted Forms is a big plus. Paying full retail for three editions of the DRF, which is sometimes required, can really add up over a long extended period of time.

RXB
01-24-2012, 04:11 PM
Also, haven't sinister track execs and politicians been (rightfully) villified for expressing this EXACT logic when implementing usurious take hikes? And haven't we horseplayers taken EXTREME umbrage at this "the idiots are addicted and will still bet at ANY takeout rate" logic???????????????????


I was thinking the same thing. There are a few differences, however. DRF has steadily improved Formulator, at least, so those of us who use that product are getting enhancements in exchange for higher pricing. (Non-Formulator users, not so lucky.)

Most racetracks are carding steadily smaller fields and more of those awful state-bred races, so when they increase takeout they're charging more for a product that is getting worse rather than better.

RXB
01-24-2012, 04:23 PM
One other thing: if someone goes to Hastings and wants to play just one or two tracks, he can print out a DRF (or Equibase) for $1.50 per track-- which is a better deal than he ever would've got in bygone years.

calltopost
01-24-2012, 04:34 PM
Here is a question - which PDF report should I - as an infrequent but capable horseplayer - get for a day at the track?

Is there one that has track bias and key races included in the past performances? Does it also have Beyers? Jockey-trainer angles? I would like one with this extra info.

Also - any reason DRF doesn't have Classic PPs yet if the post positions are already drawn? I would like PPs for the 28th at Gulfstream and Santa Anita but they aren't up yet.

Thank you.

mountainman
01-24-2012, 04:56 PM
I was thinking the same thing. There are a few differences, however. DRF has steadily improved Formulator, at least, so those of us who use that product are getting enhancements in exchange for higher pricing. (Non-Formulator users, not so lucky.)

Most racetracks are carding steadily smaller fields and more of those awful state-bred races, so when they increase takeout they're charging more for a product that is getting worse rather than better.

True, but no track enjoys the virtual monopoly that drf is to some extent exploiting, and a 20% takeout hike would be met with riots. I think. Also, if such an extreme price hike can't be traced to some emerging increase in production cost, isn't drf doing this (at least in part) because they CAN?

mountainman
01-24-2012, 05:05 PM
which is a better deal than he ever would've got in bygone years.

Which also might be taken as proof that the purveyance (and, perhaps, enhancement) of computer pp's just isn't that costly to drf.

cj
01-24-2012, 05:07 PM
True, but no track enjoys the virtual monopoly that drf is to some extent exploiting, and a 20% takeout hike would be met with riots. I think. Also, if such an extreme price hike can't be traced to some emerging increase in production cost, isn't drf doing this (at least in part) because they CAN?

DRF has a monopoly on the print edition, but only because nobody else wants to take on that losing quest. This price increase is for online products where I would guess they are far from a monopoly. There are plenty of competitors of which I'm aware...

BRIS
Equibase
Trackmaster
PostTimeDaily
HDW

Those are just off the top of my head. There may be more. If someone thinks the price isn't worth the value of the product, there are plenty of alternatives, no?

mountainman
01-24-2012, 05:28 PM
DRF has a monopoly on the print edition, but only because nobody else wants to take on that losing quest. This price increase is for online products where I would guess they are far from a monopoly. There are plenty of competitors of which I'm aware...

BRIS
Equibase
Trackmaster
PostTimeDaily
HDW

Those are just off the top of my head. There may be more. If someone thinks the price isn't worth the value of the product, there are plenty of alternatives, no?

Not a true threat to drf amongst them. As oblique proof that drf monopolizes the market; Start a Trackmaster thread here and see how much response you get. No, anyway you cut it, drf knows full well they can jam this down our throats without fear of some mass exodus to 'Post Time Daily.'

castaway01
01-24-2012, 05:42 PM
Or 2 bucks next time, then 3..4..5. And aren't the people wagering hundies a day buying lots of forms over the course of a season? So. we aren't really talking about one-single-dollar, are we? We are talking about a 20% hike-which is hefty by any standard.

Also, haven't sinister track execs and politicians been (rightfully) villified for expressing this EXACT logic when implementing usurious take hikes? And haven't we horseplayers taken EXTREME umbrage at this "the idiots are addicted and will still bet at ANY takeout rate" logic???????????????????

Good post overall, but must take sharp exception to the quoted sentence.

Well, I didn't have time to write 20 paragraphs. Obviously there's a limit, and I don't argue that DRF passed it. My point was more that DRF is legitimately struggling, not that they're rolling around in piles of extra money and then jacking up prices. Also, I really don't understand why someone who uses DRF would quit because of this increase, but if someone has to draw the line at this dollar, then fine.

castaway01
01-24-2012, 05:45 PM
I want to add that in some hypothetical casino-esque world, it would be nice if all DRFs were provided by the racetracks or ADWs, because that would make sense to facilitate gambling. Everyone funds a great source for PPs, that is only surpassed by those like CJ who have their own figs or those willing to pay a greater price. However, we all know that's not the world we live in.

cj
01-24-2012, 05:52 PM
Not a true threat to drf amongst them. As oblique proof that drf monopolizes the market; Start a Trackmaster thread here and see how much response you get. No, anyway you cut it, drf knows full well they can jam this down our throats without fear of some mass exodus to 'Post Time Daily.'

They are only not a threat because apparently the price isn't too high yet. You think if the price of a single card were $20 there would be a mass exodus? How about $15? $10? Obviously, there is a price somewhere that will kill them. Maybe this new raise is it, maybe it isn't. But they are certainly not a monopoly. I know amongst my customers, BRIS outnumbers Formulator users by a pretty decent margin and I started supporting Formulator only. I added BRIS later due to demand. I have not added others because there isn't enough demand, but I have had more than a few requests for HDW and PTD.

jelly
01-24-2012, 05:55 PM
Well, I didn't have time to write 20 paragraphs. Obviously there's a limit, and I don't argue that DRF passed it. My point was more that DRF is legitimately struggling, not that they're rolling around in piles of extra money and then jacking up prices. Also, I really don't understand why someone who uses DRF would quit because of this increase, but if someone has to draw the line at this dollar, then fine.




How do you know that the DRF is struggling?

proximity
01-24-2012, 05:58 PM
Not a bris fan, but do wish they could give drf a run for their money. With the exception of Joe Devivo, not a fan of the good folks at drf , either. Smug, inflexible and not pleasant to deal with behind the scenes. At least that's been my experience. Although it's a courtesty often extended other oddsmakers, they even refused me complimentary pp's to do mnr's morning line. Their stated reason was apprehension that i'd abuse the privilege by circulating the password amongst my friends. REALLY?? I'm a state-licensed official and well known as a man of my word.

excellent post.

the drf is just a good ol boyz network. going with moss (who still doesn't have pace figures for california fairs and pid) and not a guy like cj m (who already had figures on their own beyer scale) is just one example. and while i think you and nancy do a great job, mnr doesn't exist in mr crist's world. pid certainly doesn't. they don't understand full card simulcasting. nyra, so cal, cd, kee, and gp are about all that matter to them.

and that they're concerned that only YOU will circulate your password is a joke when this is their whole problem because certainly there is massive password sharing. i.t. is their problem. have unlimited plans that allow only one click per card (with an allowance of maybe 5 extra clicks a month) and they'd see a big increase in the number of accounts.

Pell Mell
01-24-2012, 06:19 PM
excellent post.

the drf is just a good ol boyz network. going with moss (who still doesn't have pace figures for california fairs and pid) and not a guy like cj m (who already had figures on their own beyer scale) is just one example. and while i think you and nancy do a great job, mnr doesn't exist in mr crist's world. pid certainly doesn't. they don't understand full card simulcasting. nyra, so cal, cd, kee, and gp are about all that matter to them.

and that they're concerned that only YOU will circulate your password is a joke when this is their whole problem because certainly there is massive password sharing. i.t. is their problem. have unlimited plans that allow only one click per card (with an allowance of maybe 5 extra clicks a month) and they'd see a big increase in the number of accounts.

Thanks, that was very helpful but to who I don't want to guess. :rolleyes:

proximity
01-24-2012, 06:33 PM
Thanks, that was very helpful but to who I don't want to guess. :rolleyes:

well you're welcome, i guess. :rolleyes:

locally here in tiny grantville alone i know of several people that were using a "delawarepark" account while i pay $1250 for mine and next year $1500 unless they raise the price again before it's time for me to renew. :rolleyes:

PaceAdvantage
01-24-2012, 09:13 PM
judging by your reply, you feel a 20% increase, on top of
annual increases of around 10% the past
four years, is a reasonable good business practice?Please don't be so liberal with your interpretation of my reply. I said nothing of the sort. Stuff like this is way beyond my pay grade. Only the suits at DRF know whether this is a good business practice. Bottom line results will reveal all the answers eventually.

PaceAdvantage
01-24-2012, 09:17 PM
No surprise from a company that enjoys -and has earned-a relative monopoly for its main product. Are you another who thinks they are raising prices just because they can?

There is a reason why they have little competition. Nobody else can think of a way to profitably enter such a limited market.

PaceAdvantage
01-24-2012, 09:22 PM
But, I really believe if DRF had real competition, they would figure out a way to sell their product at half the price and remain competitive. What likely would happen would be the competition would be out of business slightly before the DRF. I don't think some of you realize just how small the market is out there. What percentage of horseplayers do you think regularly downloads PPs? Or even buys a DRF more than once or twice a week?

GatetoWire
01-24-2012, 10:57 PM
Not sure why everyone associates the DRF past performances with free PP's that are available from ADW's and other PP's that are free in Hong Kong etc.

They have spent quite a bit of money developing formulator, Beyer Speed figs and Moss Pass figs and feel that they can charge a premium to access these features.

If you are not using these features then you can get free PP's from your ADW.

proximity
01-24-2012, 11:43 PM
. I don't think some of you realize just how small the market is out there. What percentage of horseplayers do you think regularly downloads PPs? Or even buys a DRF more than once or twice a week?

you're probably right about this and i think part of the problem with drf is that the ratio of paying customers to non paying customers is too low. password sharing, horsemen's accounts, (non-mountainman) track employees....

i may sound paranoid here, but len ragozin was even paranoid about people copying sheets long before the days of the internet and our laptops.

BombsAway Bob
01-25-2012, 12:19 AM
Please don't be so liberal with your interpretation of my reply. I said nothing of the sort. Stuff like this is way beyond my pay grade. Only the suits at DRF know whether this is a good business practice. Bottom line results will reveal all the answers eventually.
i just feel the "Pay it, switch, or shut up" mentality displayed by many
solidifies DRF stance. Perhaps they could throw a bone and at least
keep "Basic","Classic",or whatever they call the version that doesn't
include replays,etc. at a reasonable price.
Understand a Paper DRF at $6.50-$7, (or the inevitable $7.50 or $8
coming soon) AT LEAST PAYS for Four,Five, or more tracks daily.
Charging $2 per card at a "Discounted" 60-Card Annual Plan when
DRF doesn't have to pay printing, shipping, handling, or retail newsstand
cuts for the Paper version does not seem like a "DISCOUNT"to me!
By the time a subscriber buys paper & ink to print
DRF online PP's, you're looking at $3 a card easy!
LISTEN, i LOVE DRF.. i can get FREE PPs through TVG or Twinspires,
i spend over $1,000 yearly now on DRF PPs, via paper/online purchases.
i'd just like to get kissed when i'm getting poked,
& i think i hear DRF unzipping something as i type. :eek:
PERHAPS DRF's ultimate goal is price the product so high that
their "DRF BETS" program will be the only affordable way smaller
everyday players can afford their product.

Dark Horse
01-25-2012, 05:53 AM
I agree that DRF is stuck in the earlier part of the previous century. On the other hand, the free daily form certainly makes it possible to let DRF pay for itself. That's 360 free races a year. If you can't make money with those, why even use the form at all?

BlueShoe
01-25-2012, 08:08 AM
There is a reason why they have little competition. Nobody else can think of a way to profitably enter such a limited market.
Have we forgotten the Racing Times so soon? For awhile in the early 90's it was doing quite well and giving the DRF some real competition. Then the owner drowned and his estate sold out to the Form, and that was the end of the RT. Different era for sure, 20 years ago racing was thriving with the spread of simulcasting. Would be much harder today to start up and compete with the Form, but still a thought---.

proximity
01-25-2012, 09:17 AM
drf charges twice as much for a simple single card moss pace figure report ($2.00) than bris charges for a complete pp data file ($1.00)!! :rolleyes:

when will the insanity end???

mountainman
01-25-2012, 10:16 AM
Are you another who thinks they are raising prices just because they can?

There is a reason why they have little competition. Nobody else can think of a way to profitably enter such a limited market.

I'm another who thinks no pepsi has emerged to compete with their coke. How many form buyers-apart from the type of hardcores that might frequent this site-do you think even know what trackmaster is? And i agree that nobody has figured a way to storm drf's castle. Which only reinforces my point concerning the steep price-hike.

I just don't see them losing appreciable volume over a move like this, and that's a little scarey to a committed drf devotee such as myself. Hey, I'm not a wealthy guy, i purchase a lot of online pp's-and I'm pretty much at their mercy.

Cholly
01-25-2012, 10:52 AM
DRFís price increase has prompted a week of considering my position and options available. Formerly I purchased the monthly unlimited plan from DRF and paid $100/mo. to follow two or three circuits simultaneously. Iíve decided to dial back to following NYRA exclusively, and cut my DRF expenses to $40 per month.

I donít harbor any antagonism around this--DRF is likely lodged between a rock and a hard place. As the number of people betting races persistently declines, thereís surely a similar decline in the number of people purchasing their product. I doubt DRFís profits (if they have any) have risen in the last five years. Theyíve got a cost structure to maintain, and have to try something to keep revenue steady.

But raising prices into the face of a contracting market smacks of desperation, and is unlikely to be successful in raising net revenues. I look for sometime in the next year that they will significantly reduce their news gathering/reporting functions, or eliminate those completely. I find this sad, but it is what it isÖ

mountainman
01-25-2012, 11:14 AM
I look for sometime in the next year that they will significantly reduce their news gathering/reporting functions, or eliminate those completely. I find this sad, but it is what it isÖ

Oh gee....nobody to rave about how easily some stakes horse worked a half in 49?

takeout
01-25-2012, 12:03 PM
I wonder if it is the tail wagging the dog? That lemon has been squeezed an awful lot and it has always been overpriced. Recent investment group owners have probably just magnified that. Shades of Hialeah?

Robert Fischer
01-25-2012, 01:41 PM
they run a business.

would be nice to see DRF grow its ADW, using their brand name to take some of the tv market, and perhaps offering formulator to acct holders.

castaway01
01-25-2012, 01:53 PM
Well thought out... absolutely...
judging by your reply, you feel a 20% increase, on top of
annual increases of around 10% the past
four years, is a reasonable good business practice?
DRF used to offer 3cards-same day for $5.95... Gone
10-card subscription was $17.95 four years ago...
This Year,10-card plan is $27.95...
nice way to go out of business, imho
their costs in online sales are relatively stable.
These increases are price gouging to cover lost Newsstand sales...
the tail is wagging the dog...
http://www.drf.com/store/classic-past-performances%20


First, thanks to PA for the compliment.

Second, Bob, I know you are a serious horse racing fan and probably enjoy figuring out the races as much as anyone. However, unfortunately there aren't many like you---but those who are like you usually bet a lot of money. I'm not saying you don't bet much...just that those who do bet a lot realize that an increase of a dollar is only a tiny fraction of what they wager, so they don't care. Now, if that increase does hurt the DRF's bottom line, then they screwed up. It's impossible to know that from our end, unless the company shuts down.

I agree there is little newsstand profit these days, which was sort of my point in my earlier posts. DRF is dealing to a shrinking marketplace that appears (note "appears") to be willing to pay more, so they're trying to raise prices. I hate to see guys like you shut out, and I agree their "per year" prices are high...people who are willing to commit should get a better discount.

mountainman
01-25-2012, 01:55 PM
They are only not a threat because apparently the price isn't too high yet. You think if the price of a single card were $20 there would be a mass exodus? How about $15? $10? Obviously, there is a price somewhere that will kill them. Maybe this new raise is it, maybe it isn't. But they are certainly not a monopoly. I know amongst my customers, BRIS outnumbers Formulator users by a pretty decent margin and I started supporting Formulator only. I added BRIS later due to demand. I have not added others because there isn't enough demand, but I have had more than a few requests for HDW and PTD.

Appreciate your perspective, but rather doubt that the sort of advanced player purchasing your numbers much represents drf's customer base.

castaway01
01-25-2012, 01:56 PM
I was thinking the same thing. There are a few differences, however. DRF has steadily improved Formulator, at least, so those of us who use that product are getting enhancements in exchange for higher pricing. (Non-Formulator users, not so lucky.)

Most racetracks are carding steadily smaller fields and more of those awful state-bred races, so when they increase takeout they're charging more for a product that is getting worse rather than better.


It's not a takeout hike. It's a company trying to get by. It's not 20 percent out of each dollar you bet---it's one dollar more that is a tiny fraction of the thousands we bet a year. If you pay $50 more in past performances a year and bet $100,000, that's hardly the same as a takeout increase of 1 or 2 percent. Do the math.

Also, while I agree that the overall quality of racing is declining, I don't think tracks TRY to have bad cards. They can only deal with the horses on the grounds. The quality is poor, the number of horses is small...how do you make miracle allowance fields out of that?

castaway01
01-25-2012, 02:01 PM
How do you know that the DRF is struggling?

It sold for $400 million in 1988 to News Corporation.

It sold for less than $200 million in 2007 to Wicks Corporation, in 2007 dollars.

Any company that has diminished that much in value in 20 years isn't raking in the cash.

cj
01-25-2012, 02:12 PM
Also, while I agree that the overall quality of racing is declining, I don't think tracks TRY to have bad cards. They can only deal with the horses on the grounds. The quality is poor, the number of horses is small...how do you make miracle allowance fields out of that?


This is for another thread, but tracks should fight to race less days and card less races. I know that isn't easy, but it can be done. You think if New York cut to three days a week and spread the purse money from the other two days into those races it would help field size and quality?

cj
01-25-2012, 02:14 PM
It's not a takeout hike. It's a company trying to get by. It's not 20 percent out of each dollar you bet---it's one dollar more that is a tiny fraction of the thousands we bet a year. If you pay $50 more in past performances a year and bet $100,000, that's hardly the same as a takeout increase of 1 or 2 percent. Do the math.

They have every right to do what they want. Customers can choose to buy or not buy. As I've said, there are plenty of other alternatives. Time will tell if raising prices was better than cutting expenses and content.

RXB
01-25-2012, 02:46 PM
It's not a takeout hike. It's a company trying to get by. It's not 20 percent out of each dollar you bet---it's one dollar more that is a tiny fraction of the thousands we bet a year. If you pay $50 more in past performances a year and bet $100,000, that's hardly the same as a takeout increase of 1 or 2 percent. Do the math.

Also, while I agree that the overall quality of racing is declining, I don't think tracks TRY to have bad cards. They can only deal with the horses on the grounds. The quality is poor, the number of horses is small...how do you make miracle allowance fields out of that?

Re: DRF price vs. takeout, I said that I had thought of the parallel initially but then pointed out that in fact there were differences, right in the post that you quoted. And my math skills are truly fine, thanks. I'm perfectly aware that most people on this board would be affected more by a takeout hike than a DRF increase.

Nowhere did I suggest that tracks TRY to offer worse cards. But they ARE putting out worse cards. (And, to the extent that the racing industry as a whole is involved in the various state-bred ponzis and some of the other unfortunate trends, it is actively helping to diminish the product.)

mountainman
01-25-2012, 03:33 PM
---it's one dollar more that is a tiny fraction of the thousands we bet a year.

Your post made several good points, but i'm not quite getting why my churn should somehow justify or minimize the effect of this price increase on me. My past performances are a completely separate issue from my play-and none of drf's business, btw.

jelly
01-25-2012, 06:32 PM
One thing for sure is that it's another negative on the game and will not attract more fans/gamblers.

Tom
01-25-2012, 10:59 PM
They lost me long before the increase.
I want to use the data files for CJ's program,so I cannot use the web based formulator, because they still have not figured out how to export from that version. So I pay a premium for files that are usable for what, 48 hours, then I have nothing left??? Uh, not.

I They can do whatever they want...so can we. Frankly, the BRIS printed PPS are much superior to DRF printed ones. IMHO, and CJ's are much better than Beyer's, in many people's HO.

Trust me, there is life after DRF.

castaway01
01-26-2012, 12:22 PM
Your post made several good points, but i'm not quite getting why my churn should somehow justify or minimize the effect of this price increase on me. My past performances are a completely separate issue from my play-and none of drf's business, btw.

I don't understand what your point. I never said DRF should know or care about your churn, so I have no idea where you got that from. I'll try to explain it more simply for you. If there's a tool that helps you win, and it costs .0001 percent of the money you spend on betting, why would you give it up? Would the carpenter making 100K a year stop using his favorite tools because they went up in price by a dollar? That was my only point---you're arguing about a tiny, tiny fraction of money spent.

Whether or not there are better or more cost-effective tools than a DRF and their information is a separate discussion, not to mention a matter of opinion. That $1 a day is meaningless to a $100,000 a year winning bettor is a fact.

castaway01
01-26-2012, 12:43 PM
Actually, I want to add to what I wrote because I know I didn't state it well. My point was that if you're betting 200K a year and you're winning 5 percent before rebates using DRF or whatever, and giving that product up because it would cost you $300 more a year means you'll now lose 10 percent of your 200K a year while learning new past performances, THEN that is a bad value.

mountainman
01-26-2012, 01:46 PM
That was my only point---you're arguing about a tiny, tiny fraction of money spent.



Of WHAT money "spent?????" Dollars wagered aren't an expenditure.

mountainman
01-26-2012, 01:54 PM
That $1 a day is meaningless to a $100,000 a year winning bettor is a fact.

A 20% increase on ANYTHING I purchase daily is meaningful to me. If you, however, are in a financial position to blow it off-I simply salute you, sir.

By the way, the quoted sentence is somewhat unclear. Please express yourself with more precision the next time you honor me by explaining something "more simply." Tx in advance, I'll try to keep up.

jelly
01-26-2012, 02:24 PM
Has the 20% increase been reported in the horseracing media?

Tom
01-26-2012, 02:58 PM
They are the horse racing media.

mannyberrios
01-26-2012, 03:00 PM
They are the horse racing media.
Since when?

Robert Goren
01-26-2012, 03:08 PM
They are the horse racing media.How many times I have warned you about not everybody getting sarcasm?:rolleyes:

Dark Horse
01-26-2012, 03:31 PM
Beyers Remorse.

takeout
01-26-2012, 04:40 PM
Exactly! :D

PaceAdvantage
01-26-2012, 10:12 PM
A 20% increase on ANYTHING I purchase daily is meaningful to me. If you, however, are in a financial position to blow it off-I simply salute you, sir.

By the way, the quoted sentence is somewhat unclear. Please express yourself with more precision the next time you honor me by explaining something "more simply." Tx in advance, I'll try to keep up.I think what he's saying is that if you're a winning player, and you use the DRF info to win, then the price increase won't matter to you. And he's 100% correct.

If you're not a winning player, then the price increase just sends you to the sidelines faster...you're gonna eventually tap out no matter what.

Pretty simple stuff, right?

BombsAway Bob
01-26-2012, 10:22 PM
I think what he's saying is that if you're a winning player, and you use the DRF info to win, then the price increase won't matter to you. And he's 100% correct.

If you're not a winning player, then the price increase just sends you to the sidelines faster...you're gonna eventually tap out no matter what.

Pretty simple stuff, right?

yeah, i think i get it now...
1) i'm a cheap loser,
2)so STFU and pay,
3)or quit it altogether.
no wonder this great sport is thriving...
((PS- Thanks to Mark for understanding the plight of
the guy buying 400 racecards a year churning only $40k.))

PaceAdvantage
01-26-2012, 10:38 PM
yeah, i think i get it now...
1) i'm a cheap loser,
2)so STFU and pay,
3)or quit it altogether.
no wonder this great sport is thriving...
((PS- Thanks to Mark for understanding the plight of
the guy buying 400 racecards a year churning only $40k.))WHAT?

Why would you do that? That's not what I was saying at all...sorry you took it that way...

But then again, the realities of this game can be harsh...I was simply trying to break down what castaway was saying about a serious player.

There are all types of players. Serious players who win. Serious players who lose. Recreational players who win. Recreational players who lose.

A price rise will affect all of these folks in different ways.

I don't think I was nasty in my replies here, so I wonder why you felt the need to put words in my mouth like that.

jelly
01-26-2012, 11:10 PM
Actually, I want to add to what I wrote because I know I didn't state it well. My point was that if you're betting 200K a year and you're winning 5 percent before rebates using DRF or whatever, and giving that product up because it would cost you $300 more a year means you'll now lose 10 percent of your 200K a year while learning new past performances, THEN that is a bad value.





What percentage of people betting the horses do you think bet 200k a year,2%?

And what percentage of people betting the horses do you think win 5% before rebates,1%?


I agree the increase won't effect the 1 or 2%(who probably get their pps for free anyway)but it will effect the 98 or 99%.


The increase probably won't even effect most of those working in the industry who get it for free.

proximity
01-27-2012, 10:46 AM
If you're not a winning player, then the price increase just sends you to the sidelines faster...you're gonna eventually tap out no matter what.



having less losing players doesn't hurt winning players???

proximity
01-27-2012, 10:58 AM
not too long ago we could get tsn for like $720 a year and john del riccio's kuck ratings for about another $800......about $1500... roughly the same price drf is charging now for an annual subscription for pp generator software that was more flexible than drf's and ratings that were better than drf's. same price, but for neither of those superior services did a player need to pay for more than 3 months at a time to "only" spend $1500 a year.

BlueShoe
01-27-2012, 11:18 AM
If you're not a winning player, then the price increase just sends you to the sidelines faster...you're gonna eventually tap out no matter what.

Pretty simple stuff, right?
Right. There are a couple of old sayings that fit the situation; "Little things mean a lot", and "The straw that broke the camel's back". Speaking only of those that use the printed DRF and attend the track or otb site, but every time the Form price has gone up I have heard grumbling and remarks from players that they have had it, that they are going to stay home. A few seem to have kept their word, as crowds are way down. Of course there are other factors, but increases in the cost of doing business does matter. For a recent example, a few months ago the otb site I usually attend raised their food and drink prices. Coffee went from $1.25 to $1.50. Lots of griping about that, since horse players tend to drink a lot of coffee. A gal working a concession stand with whom I am friendly remarked that coffee sales are down. Little things do matter.

proximity
01-27-2012, 11:45 AM
Right. There are a couple of old sayings that fit the situation; "Little things mean a lot", and "The straw that broke the camel's back". Speaking only of those that use the printed DRF and attend the track or otb site, but every time the Form price has gone up I have heard grumbling and remarks from players that they have had it, that they are going to stay home. A few seem to have kept their word, as crowds are way down. Of course there are other factors, but increases in the cost of doing business does matter. For a recent example, a few months ago the otb site I usually attend raised their food and drink prices. Coffee went from $1.25 to $1.50. Lots of griping about that, since horse players tend to drink a lot of coffee. A gal working a concession stand with whom I am friendly remarked that coffee sales are down. Little things do matter.

excellent post blue shoe.

last year i actually stopped drinking the coffee at penn national when they raised the price to well over $2 for a small cup. two dinky cups of their inferior brand would fit in a similarly priced (and of course much better tasting) dunkin donuts extra large cup.
of course downstairs in their casino coffee is only a white chip to the cocktail waitress and there are fountains where soda is totally free. :bang:

mountainman
01-27-2012, 01:10 PM
I think what he's saying is that if you're a winning player, and you use the DRF info to win, then the price increase won't matter to you. And he's 100% correct.

If you're not a winning player, then the price increase just sends you to the sidelines faster...you're gonna eventually tap out no matter what.

Pretty simple stuff, right?

I didn't say that winning players can't or won't foot the increase, just that a 20% hike on anything I buy daily-and sometimes a lot of-certainly adds up over the course of time. Just because the increase is readily absorbed on a product indispensible to profitable play doesn't mean the added cost is felt less acutely than a similar raise on razor blades, some grocery item, or even gasoline might be.

* For anybody who might be wondering: McMichael is very generous, too. Has given me her last dime several times. (can't stand cheap chicks)

For the record, pace, 2011 was kind to me at the windows, but I still decry this steep increase. And I'm not a cheap guy. In fact, I'm known for grabbing the check and treating money like it grows on trees.

mountainman
01-27-2012, 01:14 PM
Beyers Remorse.

Post of the month.

aaron
01-27-2012, 06:31 PM
just heard from a friend of mine that the Daily Racing Form print edition will be going up.

bob60566
01-27-2012, 09:55 PM
Post of the month.

Mark thanks for link looking forward to first week in March love the comments from both of you.

Mac:) :) :) :)

Tom
01-28-2012, 09:43 AM
just heard from a friend of mine that the Daily Racing Form print edition will be going up.

Wow. How could it? :rolleyes:

Attention lamboguy.......gold or DRF?

mountainman
01-28-2012, 11:12 AM
Mark thanks for link looking forward to first week in March love the comments from both of you.

Mac:) :) :) :)

tx, mac...me too...i'm a person who needs structure...another week, and i'll be knocking over a liquor store

proximity
01-28-2012, 03:39 PM
Wow. How could it? :rolleyes:

Attention lamboguy.......gold or DRF?

indeed soon it will be gold for drf.

Tom
01-28-2012, 05:06 PM
That stack of old DRFs in my basement....my new retirement fund?
(probably better than my 301K) :bang:

vikingrob
01-29-2012, 11:45 PM
The free ones with a bet on the track download are the BRIS ones, since TWINSPIRES owns BRIS or something like that

Both are owned by Churchill Downs.

vikingrob
01-29-2012, 11:53 PM
What's more, I have gotten to the point where I don't print the past performances out any more - I just save them to my iPad and take that to the track with me.

If I wanted a printout, I have a laser printer.

Dark Horse
01-30-2012, 10:34 AM
Just want to add a positive.

I only turn to the speed figures after I fully handicapped the field. At that point I use a speed conversion key. The conversion applied to Beyers produces very worthwhile results. Not so for Bris. Side by side on paper there may not seem much difference between these two sets of numbers. But, for me at least, where Bris figures remain one-dimensional, the Beyers come alive and add significant focus when I add my own method. So Beyer figs are worth every penny to me. I'm impressed by their scientific value. (although I wish I could identify a key to bring their good, sloppy, and muddy races back down to earth; their translation of moisture content is anything but scientific, imo).

lamboguy
01-30-2012, 11:33 AM
i am not a fan of the DRF, but i am sure they pay a lot for their data these days.

even so, if i was them, instead of raising their prices, i would cut them in half or give them away for free. they are now in the ADW business, the majority of people that buy the form to begin with don't bet $200k a year. i would try to convert those people that buy that form into players on their newly formed ADW site where there is a big profit margin.

since the majority of players today are online smaller players, the kind that might play $20k per year tops, you can't raise prices to scare those people away. if indeed those people bet $20k per year and hold on an adw is $1000, then the racing form would be way ahead of the game. if by giving the forms away for free, they might actually get a $20k player and make him a $25k a year player.

BlueShoe
01-30-2012, 02:08 PM
just heard from a friend of mine that the Daily Racing Form print edition will be going up.
Confirmed. Just spoke to DRF customer service a few minutes ago. Good and bad news, provided the person spoken to was correct. On track price remains the same; $5.75 and $6.00 Saturday, tax included. Off track price goes up half a buck from $5.50 and $6.00 to $6.00 and $6.50. In California you must pay sales tax which ups the price, plus whatever the seller decides to charge. A few of my local liquor stores recently jacked up their price to $7, which really ticked off many of us. Will see if these guys go up again to $7.50 or even $8.00. The prices given above are supposed to go into effect the 2nd week of February for the SoCal area, the prices in other areas may vary considerably. Would have to think that prices will rise everywhere, not just California.

Tom
01-30-2012, 03:36 PM
Around here, the Saturday issue has been 7 bucks for a long time now.

duncan04
01-30-2012, 03:58 PM
Around here, the Saturday issue has been 7 bucks for a long time now.

Same here. Even at the track.

johnhannibalsmith
01-30-2012, 04:13 PM
Anymore I just give them a $20 and figure I might still get some change.

Immanuel Kant
02-01-2012, 03:08 PM
The publichandicapper.com special 100 cards for $100 is gone the way of the dodo.


The price is now $130

that's a hefty increase by anyone's accounting.

thaskalos
02-02-2012, 03:29 AM
just heard from a friend of mine that the Daily Racing Form print edition will be going up.

I see no problem with them increasing the price of their printed edition...because the service they provide is always exemplary.

Yesterday(wednesday), the DRF elected to print only the AM version of their paper for the Chicago region...leaving out Delta Downs and Portland Meadows.

You can't blame them though...

Why would they give their customers eight tracks, for only 6 bucks?

Tom
02-02-2012, 01:45 PM
Good interview on Byk today - last half hour or so of the show - with the NHC winner. He has some thoughts on the price of information.

EvenSteven
02-02-2012, 08:58 PM
Twinspires is a great place to get Free (well with some wagering) Bris PP's and Power plays. Their rewards / rebates leave something to be desired