Yep, Socialism works.....Greece

[JustRalph]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2085163/Children-dumped-streets-Greek-parents-afford-them.html


No big deal...... all these parents can retire at 55 and go on a government pension and then take their kids back

[thaskalos]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2085163/Children-dumped-streets-Greek-parents-afford-them.html


No big deal...... all these parents can retire at 55 and go on a government pension and then take their kids back

I don't see how a terribly sad situation like this can elicit such an insensitive comment.

To see a proud country like Greece -- whose history and world contributions are unmatched by those of any other -- sink to such deplorable depths, is heartbreaking...and these suffering, innocent people, deserve our sympathy...and not our ridicule.

Let's not confuse the corrupt politicians, with the common citizens now...

[JustRalph]

Let's not confuse the corrupt politicians, with the common citizens now...

I see the exact opposite. They are responsible for the politicians and they have encouraged them since the end of WWII. Same as our entitlement society here. They are just further down the path.

[thaskalos]

I see the exact opposite. They are responsible for the politicians and they have encouraged them since the end of WWII. Same as our entitlement society here. They are just further down the path.

And because they are "responsible for their politicians" -- like all other citizens, in every other country in the civilized world -- they somehow deserve this fate...and should be laughed at when they are forced to abandon their kids on the streets?

I don't see the same type of ridicule pointed towards the suffering people of THIS country...nor would I want to...

Can't we find anything else to make fun of?

[newtothegame]

And because they are "responsible for their politicians" -- like all other citizens, in every other country in the civilized world -- they somehow deserve this fate...and should be laughed at when they are forced to abandon their kids on the streets?

I don't see the same type of ridicule pointed towards the suffering people of THIS country...nor would I want to...

Can't we find anything else to make fun of?
I really doubt Ralph was making fun of the plight.....but, I can't really speak for him.
I think it is sad as well that we, here in america, can see the plight of those like in Greece and see ourselves heading towards the train wreck as well.....and yet CONTINUE down that path.
That's what I take away from the story......
It's almost as if we refuse to see the inevitable if we dont change course..... :bang:

[thaskalos]

I really doubt Ralph was making fun of the plight.....but, I can't really speak for him.
I think it is sad as well that we, here in america, can see the plight of those like in Greece and see ourselves heading towards the train wreck as well.....and yet CONTINUE down that path.
That's what I take away from the story......
It's almost as if we refuse to see the inevitable if we dont change course..... :bang:
I know that Ralph is a nice guy...but his comment was inappropriate, IMO.

Like you say...there are plenty of countries heading down the same slope as Greece is...and "changing course" is not a simple matter.

Take a look at our own upcoming presidential election...

Do you see a candidate on the ballot, who is capable of turning OUR country around? Of course not!

They present us with nothing but incompetent fools...and then we citizens hold ourselves responsible for the choice that we made...which would have worked out the same either way.

It's the same in every country.

"Democracy"...is dead.

[newtothegame]

I know that Ralph is a nice guy...but his comment was inappropriate, IMO.

Like you say...there are plenty of countries heading down the same slope as Greece is...and "changing course" is not a simple matter.

Take a look at our own upcoming presidential election...

Do you see a candidate on the ballot, who is capable of turning OUR country around? Of course not!

They present us with nothing but incompetent fools...and then we citizens hold ourselves responsible for the choice that we made...which would have worked out the same either way.

It's the same in every country.


"Democracy"...is dead.
I dont know that anyone could turn it around 180.......at this point, I am thinking just stopping or slowing the direction we are heading in would be sufficient for now.
As to these candidates.....I think any of them would do that.
It will be a progression versus a 180. Don't get me wrong though, I would much prefer the 180 turn around. No matter what, there will be pain suffered by a lot of people. I would just prfer it be quick fast and in a hurry versus a long drawn out pain.

[highnote]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2085163/Children-dumped-streets-Greek-parents-afford-them.html


No big deal...... all these parents can retire at 55 and go on a government pension and then take their kids back


This is a tragedy. This is what happens when economies collapse. We all knew it was coming and now it has arrived.

It will be interesting to see who comes to Greece's rescue. Greece has been an independent nation for less than 200 years. Historically, a nation has only given Greece economic support when it serves that nation's interests.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Turkey come to Greece's rescue. The Ottoman Empire arrived around 1204 and the Greek intellects promptly left for Western Europe and helped with the advent of the Renaissance.

It could happen again. History has a way of repeating.

What impoverished, young mother on the verge of abondoning her baby to an orphanage wouldn't welcome aid from a foreign nation?

One of the primary reasons for the European Economic Union was to provide security for member nations so that they would never have to go war over economics. Unfortunately, nations act in their own interests and their may well be nations who will try to take advantage of a weakened Greece.

[TJDave]

At some point the European Union will put together a package that will save Greeks from starving.

So...Yeah, socialism does work. ;)

[chickenhead]

Greece needs to default on their debt and exit the Euro. They need to go back to their own currency, which will be of low value, which will allow them to spur some semblance of an economy via tourism and some low rate exports.

A strong currency like the Euro has been is not a benefit for a country like Greece, a strong currency does great harm to a country like Greece. Their weak economy has however been a benefit for the richer countries of Europe by weakening the Euro relative to what it would be without them (Greece etc) in the Euro.

That is why the rich countries (read Germany) invited countries like Greece into the Euro in the first place, for the rich countries benefit.

The benefit that a country like Greece was supposed to get from the Eurozone in return, better access to capital markets at better rates -- has not been a benefit for them either as they squandered it, and that window is now shut again regardless. Greece has been a serial defaulter and has been shut out many times in the past. Its unfortunate, but corruption is a rampant, rampant problem and always has been.

But going forward, Greece will accumulate exactly zero benefit from the Euro but their economy will continue to pay the price of not exiting. Until they do. And they will.

Currently their economy is being destroyed as the ECB uses them to prop up the European banking system.

[highnote]

The sign of a wealthy nation is a set of good social programs.

Elimination of social programs will not make a nation wealthy.


At some point the European Union will put together a package that will save Greeks from starving.

So...Yeah, socialism does work. ;)

[JustRalph]

At some point the European Union will put together a package that will save Greeks from starving.

So...Yeah, socialism does work. ;)

Thask ......where am I laughing? I wasn't laughing. I was making a point.

Dave , it works as long as you are spending someone else's money

[Tom]

Two words....self inflicted.

[DJofSD]

Let's see if I understand: a parent chooses to abandon a child and it is the fault of the state and the economy?

[Native Texan III]

Greece needs to default on their debt and exit the Euro. They need to go back to their own currency, which will be of low value, which will allow them to spur some semblance of an economy via tourism and some low rate exports.

A strong currency like the Euro has been is not a benefit for a country like Greece, a strong currency does great harm to a country like Greece. Their weak economy has however been a benefit for the richer countries of Europe by weakening the Euro relative to what it would be without them (Greece etc) in the Euro.

That is why the rich countries (read Germany) invited countries like Greece into the Euro in the first place, for the rich countries benefit.

The benefit that a country like Greece was supposed to get from the Eurozone in return, better access to capital markets at better rates -- has not been a benefit for them either as they squandered it, and that window is now shut again regardless. Greece has been a serial defaulter and has been shut out many times in the past. Its unfortunate, but corruption is a rampant, rampant problem and always has been.

But going forward, Greece will accumulate exactly zero benefit from the Euro but their economy will continue to pay the price of not exiting. Until they do. And they will.

Currently their economy is being destroyed as the ECB uses them to prop up the European banking system.

Greece no longer has a currency to go back to - a new one has to be formed even if it were called drachma. Its past problem was that it did not collect tax but borrowed and spent with the help of Goldman's and hid it all from the EU. The EU invested hugely in Greece's infrastructure to give them a chance of modernising their economy.
All of Greece's debts are in Euro and $US and the Euro particularly would surge once Greece departs. Paying back Euro in worthless drachma is an even worse fix.
Those with Ferraris and paying the tax at an unemployed rates or not at all are already putting their Euros into London and Switzerland. The young and skilled are emigrating in droves. All that gets left behind is the debts, failed banks and repossessed housing. There is no chance of any recovery in a new drachma. Greece will be bailed out by the ECB and the debt reduced to maybe 10 cents on the Euro.

[chickenhead]

from this am

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-12/greece-will-have-to-quit-euro-german-lawmaker-says-in-challenge-to-merkel.html

I agree with him about the Greek part, it's a matter of arithmetic. It's not about the debt, they aren't going to pay much of it back in any case. It's about their economy going forward -- the Greeks can't bootstrap an economy at this point with the Euro. It needs something much weaker.

[badcompany]

Sadly, this is the endgame of the welfare state: poverty and chaos.

[JustRalph]

Sadly, this is the endgame of the welfare state: poverty and chaos.

Exactly.........

[Tom]

Who does that benefit?
Extra credit if you capitalize the D.

[elysiantraveller]

Sadly, this is the endgame of the welfare state: poverty and chaos.

Not really... It's what happens when you don't collect taxes... It's not a socialist/free market debate it's just what happens when you are unbelievably stupid.

[badcompany]

Not really... It's what happens when you don't collect taxes... It's not a socialist/free market debate it's just what happens when you are unbelievably stupid.

The reason you have so much tax evasion in Greece is the same reason you had a huge Black Market in the old Soviet Union.

If those taxes were collected, things would be even worse as the pie would shrink even more. Government size and economic growth have an inverse relationship.

This is a mistake I see constantly made by believers in the big government model. They think you can do anything with regard to taxation and regulation without it having any effect on productivity. It's akin to those in the horseracing industry who think raising takeouts will save the game.

[boxcar]

I don't see how a terribly sad situation like this can elicit such an insensitive comment.

To see a proud country like Greece -- whose history and world contributions are unmatched by those of any other -- sink to such deplorable depths, is heartbreaking...and these suffering, innocent people, deserve our sympathy...and not our ridicule.

Let's not confuse the corrupt politicians, with the common citizens now...

Excuse me, Thakalos, but is Greece a democracy? Do the "common citizens" elect their politicians? Do the "common citizens", through those elected representatives, have a voice in public policy issues? If so, then how is it that the "common citizens" are not ultimately responsible for their predicament?

Boxcar

[boxcar]

I know that Ralph is a nice guy...but his comment was inappropriate, IMO.

Like you say...there are plenty of countries heading down the same slope as Greece is...and "changing course" is not a simple matter.

You just made a great case for foresight which, evidently, very few care about. Everyone behaves a wee bit selfishly when it comes to public policy issues because they're thinking basically how it's going to affect them -- the current generation. They care very little for the next generation. They figure future generations will have to fend for themselves.

Take a look at our own upcoming presidential election...

Do you see a candidate on the ballot, who is capable of turning OUR country around? Of course not!

Nope! Neither do I.

They present us with nothing but incompetent fools...and then we citizens hold ourselves responsible for the choice that we made...which would have worked out the same either way.

The citizenry could send a loud signal to the political establishment and their incompetent fools by boycotting elections and demanding better candidates. Shut down the country, if necessary.

It's the same in every country.

"Democracy"...is dead.

All forms of human government are inevitably doomed to fail. They must fail due to the sinfulness of man. Can a bad tree bear good fruit? Then likewise, neither can can corrupt mankind produce good government.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

The reason you have so much tax evasion in Greece is the same reason you had a huge Black Market in the old Soviet Union.

If those taxes were collected, things would be even worse as the pie would shrink even more. Government size and economic growth have an inverse relationship.

This is a mistake I see constantly made by believers in the big government model. They think you can do anything with regard to taxation and regulation without it having any effect on productivity. It's akin to those in the horseracing industry who think raising takeouts will save the game.

Go the head of the class! Good post. :ThmbUp:

Boxcar

[highnote]

Let's see if I understand: a parent chooses to abandon a child and it is the fault of the state and the economy?


I think you've got that exactly correct. These are the unintended consequences of failed economies and states.

Also, we don't know the mental state of the people who abandoned their kids. It must be an awful thing to have to do -- to know that your kids will be better off in someone else's care.

[elysiantraveller]

The reason you have so much tax evasion in Greece is the same reason you had a huge Black Market in the old Soviet Union.

If those taxes were collected, things would be even worse as the pie would shrink even more. Government size and economic growth have an inverse relationship.

This is a mistake I see constantly made by believers in the big government model. They think you can do anything with regard to taxation and regulation without it having any effect on productivity. It's akin to those in the horseracing industry who think raising takeouts will save the game.

I agree with you... in principle...

But the failure of the Greek state simply has to deal with not enforcing regulation. Allow massive tax evasion to take place here and see what happens?... We have this entity here, one that everyone loves, called the IRS to prevent these things from happening. They can and will make your life shit.

In Greece its much more a discussion of pluses and minuses than it is about left and right. A command economy is a tough thing to make work... its even tougher when you aren't commanding anything. ;)

[badcompany]

I agree with you... in principle...

But the failure of the Greek state simply has to deal with not enforcing regulation. Allow massive tax evasion to take place here and see what happens?... We have this entity here, one that everyone loves, called the IRS to prevent these things from happening. They can and will make your life shit.

In Greece its much more a discussion of pluses and minuses than it is about left and right. A command economy is a tough thing to make work... its even tougher when you aren't commanding anything. ;)

You seem to have a greater confidence in the Money Management capabilities of politicians than I have. That's not saying much because I have none.

If they were to collect those taxes that you seem to feel would solve their problems, IMO, the politicians would just find new ways of pissing it away.

It's Lucy pulling away the football, "If you just give us more money, we'll be responsible with it, and gosh darnit, this time we really mean it!"

Yeah, sure you do.