Thoroughbred Racing; A Dying Industry?

[rayfox]

Thoroughbred Racing; A Dying Industry?

Frank Sinatra recorded a beautiful holiday song that most have never heard because the classics are the most played. The song was Whatever Happened To Christmas. Frank sings "it's gone and left no traces". Racing fans across America may soon be asking that same question of thoroughbred racing. The once upon a time glamour, colorful silks, exciting stretch runs and super stars no longer to enjoy.

A vital ingredient to any sport is, and has been, missing from the racing recipe for some time now. An ingredient that all sports needs to succeed; charisma. To witness what charisma can do, race fans only need to revert back to the late 70's and 80's when racing had not one but, dozens of super stars racing in the same time period. Racing had the Seattle Slew's, the Affirmed's, the Spectacular Bid's, and its star of stars, Secretariat. One could detail a long list of great horses and great jockeys that competed togetherduring a specified time period. Race fans witnessed many winning streaks like the recent one of Zenyatta and nine tear olds like John Henry beating up on the youngsters. We watched great match races and major stakes races filled with super stars. During that same time period other sports thrived through its super stars. Golf had its crowd pleasers such as Palmer, Nicklaus, Floyd, Player, etc. Then Tiger appeared and golf took on an appearance quite similar to racing; a sort of single super star, but one that made golf prosper. Thoroughbred owners don’t race a single super star choosing instead to retire a star as three year old. Golf on the other hand has the senior tour and super senior tour. What racing is left with today is a sparse list of champion thoroughbreds competing during a same time period.

Thoroughbred racing is a very large national industry, one much larger than most people realize and one that legislators have over the years failed to realize as such. Those of us that do realize this wonder how much longer legislators will continue to ignore the issues or choose to further abuse something so vital to the economy. It appears that the individuals in position to do something about racing’s growing problems seem only to concern themselves with how next to extract more from racing. States that are badly in need of revenue, in my opinion, pilferage the industry with little concern for those that make the wheel go around; the public. The federal government, with its outdated tax codes, continues to drive investors away from the sport. Owners and breeders get little in the way of tax incentives aimed at luring new and retaining current investors. That reluctance to modify tax codes in turn hurts the thousands of providers of products and services to the racing industry. And let’s least not forget the public. The public, for the most part is, and has been, left out of any consideration or input into racing issues. But the public is always included as a victim of legislative sins committed by governmental bodies that are inept, or lack any knowledge of what thoroughbred racing contributes.

I, personally, have been involved in every facet of racing for 50 years, save riding and training. I bred thoroughbreds at Gainsway Farm in Lexington and raced thoroughbreds in three states. I eventually exited the owner/breeder segment of racing when the federal government decided that stud fees had to be capitalized instead of allowing it to be treated as an up front expense. When the maximum tax rate for individuals was set at 50%, tax treatments such as that caused many investors to exit the racing scene.



New tracks have opened in the past ten years while old established race tracks fight for survival causing further saturation of supply with decreasing demand. Most tracks no longer operate on Monday's, Tuesday's and Wednesday’s and the major race tracks can't fill their race cards. Bettors stay at home and wager with off shore facilities that commonly pay a 7% to 10% rebate on the amount wagered. Yes, you read it correctly, on the amount wagered; win or lose. States look for new money by allowing new tracks to open despite watching to closure of some great ones. They elect to extract more revenues with no thought or consideration to how long a new track will remain solvent. Race track owners are forced to charge outrageous prices for concessions to make allowance for the lack of attendance which in turn causes even more bettors to remain at home to wager on the internet. So naturally, what is our government’s answer to the problem? Chase down the off shore facilities rather than taking a competitive approach of giving the public something similar. As a start the ridiculous regulation of the 300-1 tax signing requirement when a bettor makes a wager with his after tax dollars and 27% to 30% that is extracted from the pari-mutual pool prior to a race. Oddly enough, in spite of the latter, it is common to hear sports betting enthusiasts talk about how you can’t overcome a 10% vig charged by bookmakers. Why don’t the various governments become competitors, in some manner, rather than spending all of their time to extricate their opposition?

Most of the tracks that are presently operating are fighting for their very existence, or are badly in need of updated facilities. Investors ask why invest private money into racing facilities only to see the state governments reap all of the benefits? Better idea, why doesn't the state governments invest in thoroughbred racing since they receive most of the financial rewards of private investments? Sadly enough, it has always been take, take, take when it comes to anything involving the thoroughbred racing industry.

In my home state of Florida I have watched the demise of great racing stables and beautiful historic race tracks such as Hialeah Park (soon to become what else, a casino). I often wonder if Tallahassee has even a clue that next to the citrus industry, thoroughbred racing coupled with all of its associated products and services is the second largest employer in the state?

To illustrate how ridiculous tax codes are, I recently cashed a $2 superfecta ticket that returned $854. I had to go to the IRS window to cash the ticket. Now an experienced person such as myself knows better than to buy a $2 ticket instead of two $1 tickets or even ten cent tickets. But why make a person sign an IRS form and report the winnings when another person that won the same bet on two, or even ten $1 tickets did not? Isn't it time the state and federal governments get real?

Casino's, who were supposed to help racing with larger purses appear to more than likely be aiding the ruination. The casino legislative objective of raising purses that was in turn supposed to attract investors for breeding and racing has not done much at all, i.e. 5 and 6 horse fields everywhere. So why hasn’t it helped? Because the cost of boarding, training and transporting horses has gone through the roof at the same or greater pace of the increased purses. The racing industry's battle for existence doesn't end with competition from the casinos and inept legislators. Also drawing blood are scratch off tickets, multi-state lotteries, intrastate lotteries and illegal sports betting. And like Cher sang, "and the beat goes on".

Thoroughbred racing needs immediate attention because the band aids being applied can no longer contain the bleeding.

[DJofSD]

That huge bold font sucks.

[thaskalos]

Very interesting piece Ray...thank you for presenting it.

But, eventhough I agree with most of what you say...I couldn't help but notice that you placed all of the blame for our "dying" sport on the lap of the "State"...and neglected to point an accusing finger at another group, which is AT LEAST equally to blame.

The horse racing industry itself!

They failed to realize that the gambling landscape had CHANGED...and that there was new competition on the horizon for the "gambling" dollar.

Why...even NOW they refuse to acknowledge that they are in the GAMBLING business!

They haven't even been able to organize into something that could be called an "industry"...choosing instead to remain a group of individual special-interest groups...fighting among each other for the biggest piece of the pie...and failing to come to any agreements, even in the face of clear and present danger.

As a 30-year horseplayer myself, I don't hesitate in the least to declare that this sport's "death", will be largely...self-inflicted.

[tzipi]

Very interesting piece Ray...thank you for presenting it.

But, eventhough I agree with most of what you say...I couldn't help but notice that you placed all of the blame for our "dying" sport on the lap of the "State"...and neglected to point an accusing finger at another group, which is AT LEAST equally to blame.

The horse racing industry itself!

They failed to realize that the gambling landscape had CHANGED...and that there was new competition on the horizon for the "gambling" dollar.

Why...even NOW they refuse to acknowledge that they are in the GAMBLING business!

They haven't even been able to organize into something that could be called an "industry"...choosing instead to remain a group of individual special-interest groups...fighting among each other for the biggest piece of the pie...and failing to come to any agreements, even in the face of clear and present danger.

As a 30-year horseplayer myself, I don't hesitate in the least to declare that this sport's "death", will be largely...self-inflicted.


Exactly my thoughts also. Great post :ThmbUp:

[Robert Goren]

Of the things that are killing racing, the tax code is pretty far down the list. Number one on the list is something you didn't even mention. The refusal of the industry to meet the wants and needs of its customers, the handicapper. They don't need more horses, they need more horse bettors. That is something the government can't give the industry. That is some thing they are going to have attract themselves.
You failed to mention the two things that handicappers such as I complain the most about. The very high takeout and the drugging of horses. That are two things that the industry refuses to tackle and until they do, the industry continue to wilt away a little more each year.

[Greyfox]

From what I can see the industry is declining but not dying.
The main problem is simply:

The inability to attract new young handicappers into the sport.

Drugs and takeout are secondary factors. New players are hardly concerned with them. They want action.

Today's younger generation is not being nurtured on horse racing.
The Sports Bar - Betting Parlor that I place most of my bets in is populated by Grey haired folks like myself.
Each year two or three of us die off.
Their empty seats are not being filled by younger players. They remain vacant.
Today's young adults are a "Fast Food" generation.
Sitting around for twenty five minutes or thirty minutes between races does not appeal to them.
They have grown up on fast moving video games.
If they are going to become bettors, they are more likely to be attracted to faster action games such as Poker.
They do not have the attention spans or interest to sit around for almost 4 hours to get only 8 or 9 plays at a track.
Oh, they could get a lot more plays in that time via simulcast.
But that means investing in the purchase of several programs, which they've never bothered to learn how to understand in the first place.
It might help if local colleges offered programs on handicapping and betting.
But that seems a stretch.

[lamboguy]

i wrote this yesterday on another thread. from a bettors standpoint it is almost impossible to handicap horses. you will do a lot better handicapping trainers these days.

years ago large trainer's had no more than 32 stalls in new york racing. today guys have 60, 100, 150. those trainers send their horses our in sets of 5. the condition books are written around those horses that the big trainers have.

how can you be a small guy and win a race against any of the big guys? its almost impossible.

when a small trainer needs his horse to work in company, he has to find another guy in the same boat as him and he probably has a lousy horse too!

the tripple crown races this year were all won by pretty predictable trainers, Graham Motion, Dale Romans, and Bill Mott.

there is no way that racing can exist without smaller trainer's and small owners.

instead of helping the game, the slots are making the game worse. those big purses makes it possible for big out fits to charge big training training bills. the money spent on training is buying the wins these days.

[gm10]

From what I can see the industry is declining but not dying.
The main problem is simply:

The inability to attract new young handicappers into the sport.

Drugs and takeout are secondary factors. New players are hardly concerned with them. They want action.

Today's younger generation is not being nurtured on horse racing.
The Sports Bar - Betting Parlor that I place most of my bets in is populated by Grey haired folks like myself.
Each year two or three of us die off.
Their empty seats are not being filled by younger players. They remain vacant.
Today's young adults are a "Fast Food" generation.
Sitting around for twenty five minutes or thirty minutes between races does not appeal to them.I
They have grown up on fast moving video games.
If they are going to become bettors, they are more likely to be attracted to faster action games such as Poker.
They do not have the attention spans or interest to sit around for almost 4 hours to get only 8 or 9 plays at a track.
Oh, they could get a lot more plays in that time via simulcast.
But that means investing in the purchase of several programs, which they've never bothered to learn how to understand in the first place.
It might help if local colleges offered programs on handicapping and betting.
But that seems a stretch.

Actually you raise a fair point. Though not exactly a spring chicken I often get a vague sense of annoyance when having to wait 30 mins 6-7-8 times in a row. It's just too long after a while even when you do go to the paddock, have lunch, etc in between.

[tzipi]

Today's young adults are a "Fast Food" generation.
Sitting around for twenty five minutes or thirty minutes between races does not appeal to them.

Fast food generation? Weird term to describe people today since fast food has been around for decades.

Also what is this "can't wait 30 min deal between races" If you actually goto the tracks todays you will see you can bet a ton of tracks and there is NO 30 min between every race you can bet. People can bet almost every 2 min if they want. They can also go online and bet every minute if you want at tracks all over. The problem is the way the industry is run. They are years behind everyone else but will not admit it. Keep blaming "young people" who can wait well over 30 mins to play a playable hand in poker.

[castaway01]

I really don't understand the "its too slow" argument. When I used to attend Philly Park, most people walked around with a program that had past performances for 12 tracks crammed in it. You could bet on a race every few minutes if you wanted to. No, that's not as fast as a slot machine, but most people aren't betting from the track anyway these days, so this complaint seems misplaced or dated.

Racing is losing market share because other forms of gambling have grown expontentially and provided many, many, many better options than going to a racetrack. Most states have casinos now, and most casino games have lower takeout and are easier to learn. Even if you don't know what takeout is, if you're getting 95 percent of your money back from a slot machine, you're doing much better than most racetrack newbies. Personally I find slots boring, but other people would rather lose some at a game they can understand and requires no real insight than at one they don't, like racing. Of course, as has been documented very well here, the tracks/states have done little to compete that's worked, mainly just fighting each other for the scraps and trying to get slot machines of their own.

I have to point again to the examples of the Atlantic City casinos here in New Jersey. They are losing market share even faster than most racetracks, but for the same reasons. Did people in PA, NY, Delaware and NJ suddenly decide they don't like poker and slot machines in Atlantic City, or is the casino business in AC down 25 percent because millions and millions of people now have other, better options that are much closer to home? (They also had online poker for a while, and may legally have it again someday.) The gambling dollars (and yes, there is a limit to how much of them there are) are being divided up and racing is not an attractive way to gamble to the uninitiated---yes, too slow, but more importantly too hard to learn and too hard to win---so it's losing out.

[Ian Meyers]

Today's younger generation is not being nurtured on horse racing.

The Sports Bar - Betting Parlor that I place most of my bets in is populated by Grey haired folks like myself.

Each year two or three of us die off.
Their empty seats are not being filled by younger players. They remain vacant.


As bad as it has gotten for racing with a a ten year+ MONOPOLY on internet gaming, can you imagine how it will be when states legalize internet poker? That will likely be within the next 6 months given the recent Justice Department opinion.

If you love the game like I do it's a terrifying thing to contemplate...

[Dahoss9698]

the tripple crown races this year were all won by pretty predictable trainers, Graham Motion, Dale Romans, and Bill Mott.


Close. Bill Mott didn't win a triple crown race this year. The Kelly Breen trained Ruler on Ice won the Belmont.

[RXB]

The industry has been mismanaged and poorly regulated but some of the problems are not anybody's fault. You want to conduct a poker game, you need a room and a table. You want to conduct horse racing, you need to buy a sizable chunk of land and then build and constantly maintain a large racing surface and the associated plant at massive cost. That's a huge competitive disadvantage right from the start.

[Dahoss9698]

I really don't understand the "its too slow" argument. When I used to attend Philly Park, most people walked around with a program that had past performances for 12 tracks crammed in it. You could bet on a race every few minutes if you wanted to. No, that's not as fast as a slot machine, but most people aren't betting from the track anyway these days, so this complaint seems misplaced or dated.

The gambling dollars (and yes, there is a limit to how much of them there are) are being divided up and racing is not an attractive way to gamble to the uninitiated---yes, too slow, but more importantly too hard to learn and too hard to win---so it's losing out.

Good post and I agree that it isn't "too slow." I connect it to what you got at in your final paragraph.

Can you imagine someone looking at PP's for the first time? If you aren't familiar with them, it looks like it is written in a different language. Why bother learning something that appears so difficult when you can pump money into a slot machine, bet a sporting event or play cards?

Educating people on how to handicap and bet and embracing what the sport is will do more to entice the younger generation to bet than anything else IMO.

[lamboguy]

Close. Bill Mott didn't win a triple crown race this year. The Kelly Breen trained Ruler on Ice won the Belmont.
you are right, kelly has a bunch of stalls in monmouth too

[Dahoss9698]

you are right, kelly has a bunch of stalls in monmouth too

I don't disagree with your premise, having so few trainers with so many horses isn't a good thing. In fact it's part of the reason horse racing is in the position it is in. When a few guys run things, competition, which is what this sport is predicated on will (and as we have seen does) suffer.

However, I don't really agree that guys like Dale Romans, Graham Motion, Kelly Breen and Bill Mott fit into that category.

[Tom]

Fast food generation? Weird term to describe people today since fast food has been around for decades.

Nowadays, you sit in a fast food drive thru for 25-30 minutes!

Seriously, if you play on line, or play simulcasting, what does the time between races have to do with it anymore? The complaint I see more is races going off on top of each other.

[PhantomOnTour]

IMO the best way to attract new players is to show them the very nice payouts that can be had for a small investment almost everyday at every track.

My ad campaign would be less like a:
"Come hear the thundering hooves and experience the excitement under the historic twinspires..."
and more like a:
"Come take your shot at our super high 5 jackpot carryover of $1.2million..."

I realized the beauty of the game and picking winners before i realized the beauty of the horse itself.

[Tom]

Can you imagine someone looking at PP's for the first time? If you aren't familiar with them, it looks like it is written in a different language. Why bother learning something that appears so difficult when you can pump money into a slot machine, bet a sporting event or play cards?

I think that when I look at PPs every weekend! :rolleyes:

But good point. That new deal NYRA has is a giant step to solving that problem - they made it look like a game! Ingenious. Frankly, that platform could be marketed as the new Past Performances - I could play today's races in real life with that format and information at my fingertips. The idea of playing old races and then watching the race to validate your learning immediately could bring new people in. Imagine a row of booths - 20, 30, 40 of them, at the track, hooked up to today's races.....learn at home, come on out and play real races in the exact same way you learned how.

[Greyfox]

Fast food generation? If you actually goto the tracks todays you will see you can bet a ton of tracks and there is NO 30 min between every race you can bet. People can bet almost every 2 min if they want. They can also go online and bet every minute if you want at tracks all over.

The Sports Bar-OTB I was referring to has 15 screens.
Yes, you can play every few minutes.
That's an easy way to lose.
I addressed that point when I mentioned young players are not going to buy multiple programs of past performances (especially when they can't understand them).

[tzipi]

Nowadays, you sit in a fast food drive thru for 25-30 minutes!

Very true :D

[tzipi]

The Sports Bar-OTB I was referring to has 15 screens.
Yes, you can play every few minutes.
That's an easy way to lose.
I addressed that point when I mentioned young players are not going to buy multiple programs of past performances (especially when they can't understand them).


I don't buy seperate programs for every single track. Never even seen that.

If they don't ubnderstand then why would they even be playing the game or any game for that matter? Plus the DRF and DRF online carries alot of tracks in it where you can bet every couple min if you want. You don't have to buy seperate programs for every single track. But keep blaming young people and not the industry. Other gambling industries with more complicated play and sometimes slower play have taken in young people with no problem.

[lamboguy]

I don't disagree with your premise, having so few trainers with so many horses isn't a good thing. In fact it's part of the reason horse racing is in the position it is in. When a few guys run things, competition, which is what this sport is predicated on will (and as we have seen does) suffer.

However, I don't really agree that guys like Dale Romans, Graham Motion, Kelly Breen and Bill Mott fit into that category.
motion has 150 horses in Fairhill at all times. his horses all go out in sets of 12.
this one i am sure you don't know. he must charge about $125 a day to train horses over there and he doesn't make to much money from the day rate.
you can't beat a guy like that. i am not saying he is doing anything wrong, or the other guys either. i am just saying they are beating the game with numbers. those numbers are forcing smaller guys out. woody stephens only had 32 stalls in belmont, he still won everything. a guy with 100 stalls can't miss.

i go through this every single day with people. the horses that i send to big trainers win all kinds of races, the horses i send out to smaller guys hardly ever win. they are all the same horses.

eventually there are going to be more and more people training on private facilities. aside from the numbers, those guys can pick the perfect spots for their horses as well.

[Greyfox]

I don't buy seperate programs for every single track. Never even seen that.

If they don't ubnderstand then why would they even be playing the game or any game for that matter? Plus the DRF and DRF online carries alot of tracks in it where you can bet every couple min if you want. You don't have to buy seperate programs for every single track. But keep blaming young people and not the industry. Other gambling industries with more complicated play and sometimes slower play have taken in young people with no problem.

Two racing forms will get you most tracks.
Otherwise separate programs printed electronically at our OTB cost $3.50.

The bottom line is: Younger players are not being attracted to the game.

I am not blaming young people.
The fact is they are not coming into the game and it has little if anything to do with drugs and takeout.
So then we have to look at 1. Marketing and 2. Education
If you know the answers tzipi , as you seem to imply, please tell us why young people are not taking up horse racing to a greater extent.

[tzipi]

Two racing forms will get you most tracks.
Otherwise separate programs printed electronically at our OTB cost $3.50.

The bottom line is: Younger players are not being attracted to the game.

I am not blaming young people.
The fact is they are not coming into the game and it has little if anything to do with drugs and takeout.
So then we have to look at 1. Marketing and 2. Education
If you know the answers tzipi , as you seem to imply, please tell us why young people are not taking up horse racing to a greater extent.

No, you said younger peiople are not able to know the complicated game and have no patience to wait 20 min. I said you're wrong. It's not the younger generation, it's the industry. I NEVER said I had the true answer. All I said was look how casinos and other gambling industries treat their customers compared to racings. I mean thats an age old 100 thread statement on Pace Advantage. I didn't come up with it. I think there's more profitable games out there that the younger generation likes to play and other industries that cater to them.



What's way easier money and gambling for the younger generation? Well for me and this is just me, it's betting offensive powerhouses Green Bay and New Orleans at home against the spread. I like betting football along with the horses. GB and N.O. were a combined 15-1 against the spread. I couldn't have ever made that kinda money at the track in 4 months. No way.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Takeout is a huge factor in why the game doesn't attract young people. Drugs not so much. OK, not specifically takeout, but the fact that the takeout causes next to zero long term winners.
Create long term winners who are visible, and young gamblers will show up, just like they did when it comes to poker.
Why learn the ins and outs of hold em poker? Because the game is perceived as beatable by at least a few.
Why learn the ins and outs of horse racing (much more complicated than poker as well)?

[tzipi]

Also Greyfox, to walk into Belmont this past year cost me parking,entrance and program fee. $8. Then a drink cost me about $7. Down $15 before even a bet! To walk into casino costs $0 and a drink while playing costs $2.50.

Now I'm a racing fan and player obviously but most people and the younger generation see the difference. Take out is a whole other problem. Too big and obvious to get into :)

[Greyfox]

No, you said younger peiople are not able to know the complicated game and have no patience to wait 20 min. I said you're wrong.

The game is complicated. I believe the mindset of a generation brought up on fast action electronic games does not want to wait 25-30 minutes at a track between races.
Gambling is based on intermittent reinforcement.
That length of time between races doesn't hack it.
Trying to bet multiple tracks on simulcast between races won't hack it either unless you know what you're doing.



It's not the younger generation, it's the industry. I NEVER said I had the true answer. All I said was look how casinos and other gambling industries treat their customers compared to racings.

I didn't think you had the "true answer."
But if younger people aren't showing up in the first place, whether or not tracks treat people as well as casinos doesn't matter.






What's way easier money and gambling for the younger generation? Well for me and this is just me, it's betting offensive powerhouses Green Bay and New Orleans at home against the spread. I like betting football along with the horses. GB and N.O. were a combined 15-1 against the spread. I couldn't have ever made that kinda money at the track in 4 months. No way.

Right. Racing faces a game like football that's marketed daily on TV and in the papers. If racing gets a 2" column once a week in a local rag, it's lucky.

[Greyfox]

Takeout is a huge factor in why the game doesn't attract young people. Drugs not so much. OK, not specifically takeout, but the fact that the takeout causes next to zero long term winners.
)?

A newbie coming in to the track doesn't even know what takeout is.
Nor does he care.
He/she either enjoys his day at the races and returns.
Or he/she doesn't.
After people are more connected to the game, takeout becomes a factor.

[tzipi]

The game is complicated. I believe the mindset of a generation brought up on fast action electronic games does not want to wait 25-30 minutes at a track between races.

Again, I don't get this 30 min wait thing you keep blaming it on. There's tons of tracks running with one DRF giving you about 5-6 tracks and 50+ races to play. You can play every 2 minutes at OTB,online or at the track if you want. Saying well you can't win that way. OK well again young poker players DO NOT play every hand and most have said they can wait sometimes 20 min bewteen hands waiting for playable ones. They have no problem with being patient. PLUS, they are sitting at a table. At the track you can walk around,etc. At home you can do anything you want for 20 min between races. Everyone can even bet races from their phones today! I see this "time" arguement holding no water. Gotta run out. Enjoy :)

[Greyfox]

Also Greyfox, to walk into Belmont this past year cost me parking,entrance and program fee. $8. Then a drink cost me about $7. Down $15 before even a bet! To walk into casino costs $0 and a drink while playing costs $2.50.

Now I'm a racing fan and player obviously but most people and the younger generation see the difference. Take out is a whole other problem. Too big and obvious to get into :)

Good point.
I suspect in some cities a nominal small fee would keep homeless/free loaders out.
However, in general, ADMISSION SHOULD BE FREE.
That gives a person $5 more to bet with and for most people they'll give it back to the track anyways. Upfront costs like the ones you cite are a turnoff to young people.

[Robert Goren]

What the racing industry doesn't get is that if a young person thinks 30 between races is a problem, then it is a problem. You can talk all you want about being able to bet every two minutes. It doesn't matter. The industry needs to figure out why he thinks it is a problem and rectify it. Just muttering something about being able bet every two minutes isn't going to change his attitude. It is all about finding out what the customer wants and delivering it in way he will use it. That's marketing 101.

[tzipi]

Good point.
I suspect in some cities a nominal small fee would keep homeless/free loaders out.
However, in general, ADMISSION SHOULD BE FREE.
That gives a person $5 more to bet with and for most people they'll give it back to the track anyways. Upfront costs like the ones you cite are a turnoff to young people.

Well upfront costs might've killed on track a bit but these people todays can bet from their phones if they want and do whatever else in between. The racing industries has a big problem and they have to fix it quick. Casinos clearly haven't done a thing for racing. But most knew they wouldn't. Racing must look at themselves as a gambling business and get on par with the rest of them. JMO ;)

[cosmicway]

The horse racing industry is facing a crisis.
The reasons are many and vary depending on the location.

The salient causes are the following:

1) The emergence of competitive forms of betting, available through the internet as well.

2) Unfair and intense taxation & exorbitant takeouts.

3) Many integrity issues at the tracks.

4) There is by and large no introductory material available for the absolute beginner.

Re. no (4) some people think that if they splash ads on tv and if they glamourize the whole circus, it's going to work. That's good but not good enough. This is the tactic to advertise a holiday resort, not race betting. Race betting is about money and no one wishes to get involved unless he feels confident he can do something.

Re. no (1) the difference with old times is huge. In my country, Greece, up to the mid-90s there was practically no other type of bet. We had football pools, very popular, but it was an ultra longshot type of bet, whichever way you looked at it. Casino was not allowed to Greek citizens, it was only for foreign tourists. At some point it was allowed but you had to carry a tax certificate with you and you had to travel to go there. After the year 2000 we have all kinds of wagering of course.

It appears that the racing authorities are facing a difficult task but also they are slow to take action, in those areas where action can be taken.

[thespaah]

Of the things that are killing racing, the tax code is pretty far down the list. Number one on the list is something you didn't even mention. The refusal of the industry to meet the wants and needs of its customers, the handicapper. They don't need more horses, they need more horse bettors. That is something the government can't give the industry. That is some thing they are going to have attract themselves.
You failed to mention the two things that handicappers such as I complain the most about. The very high takeout and the drugging of horses. That are two things that the industry refuses to tackle and until they do, the industry continue to wilt away a little more each year.
Small fields have little value. ROI potential drops significantly when there are so few betting interests.
Good handicappers are able to weed out non contenders and take advantage of public money chasing favorites.
The better handicappers will wager more dollars when fields are larger.
Larger fields = more dollars and more bettors.
Oh...Please do not reply with "what about Evangeline Downs".

[JohnGalt1]

Televise more races on FREE TV.

I'm a better with only basic cable -- because I don't want to pay $80+ for stations I'm not interested in -- so I could only watch the two hours ABC thought was enough. I did watch the replays on Twin Spires, but it's not the same.

Sports leagues lose fans when they reduce exposure to their product. i.e. boxing.

Maybe (NBC?) could televise a big stakes race one to 4 times a month. And show the entire Breeder's Cup so more than 50% of the country can watch it.

[Dahoss9698]

i go through this every single day with people. the horses that i send to big trainers win all kinds of races, the horses i send out to smaller guys hardly ever win. they are all the same horses.


There has to be a reason for that, right? As with any occupation there are trainers who are just better at their craft than others. I'm not talking about the guys winning with 40% if their starters. That's ridiculous. But the Motion's, Mott's of the world get horses because they are terrific trainers.

There is no doubt that there are some trainers around who are just as good as the big names and just need a good horse or two to show it. And you are correct that some guys win because of sheer numbers. But as with anything it only tells part of the story.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

A newbie coming in to the track doesn't even know what takeout is.
Nor does he care.
He/she either enjoys his day at the races and returns.
Or he/she doesn't.
After people are more connected to the game, takeout becomes a factor.
The young person might go out of curiousity or in a company or family outing, but to get their commitment the game needs to be perceived as beatable in the long term.
I already addressed that a person doesn't need to know the takeout, they just need to know if there are long term winners, however high takeout makes it next to impossible to have such role models.

[lamboguy]

those guys are smart. we sent mott cuyuga waters in he did a super job. i can't remember a horse that went to mott that hasn't done well. same thing with motion. but its not like the horses are trained any different than the ones that go to lesser trainers. we just ran second in the msw race in gulfstream that i thought was going to win. there are some small trainers that have the same good stock, know how to train, yet they don't beat these big guys.

it all comes down to this, in a poker game the guy that holds the most chips usually wins, its the same in horse racing today, its just not such a random sport any more.

[gm10]

Good post and I agree that it isn't "too slow." I connect it to what you got at in your final paragraph.

Can you imagine someone looking at PP's for the first time? If you aren't familiar with them, it looks like it is written in a different language. Why bother learning something that appears so difficult when you can pump money into a slot machine, bet a sporting event or play cards?

Educating people on how to handicap and bet and embracing what the sport is will do more to entice the younger generation to bet than anything else IMO.

That would have worked 20 years ago, but most things do actually have to be 'faster' these days. Personally I don't like this trend, but there's not much I can do about it. Having to wait for anything tends to annoy most people these days, especially when they have alternatives.

I don't buy into the simulcast argument (as mentioned here). Surely most people don't want to spend their day at the track watching races on a TV monitor? I know I don't. I'd prefer a smaller card with bigger fields, and less time in between races.

[gm10]

Also Greyfox, to walk into Belmont this past year cost me parking,entrance and program fee. $8. Then a drink cost me about $7. Down $15 before even a bet! To walk into casino costs $0 and a drink while playing costs $2.50.

Now I'm a racing fan and player obviously but most people and the younger generation see the difference. Take out is a whole other problem. Too big and obvious to get into :)

I went to Lingfield last Saturday and it cost me 30$ just to get in! And this is during low season! It's more expensive during the summer. It was bottom level racing, but you know what, the place was pretty much packed.

[Robert Goren]

Small fields have little value. ROI potential drops significantly when there are so few betting interests.
Good handicappers are able to weed out non contenders and take advantage of public money chasing favorites.
The better handicappers will wager more dollars when fields are larger.
Larger fields = more dollars and more bettors.
Oh...Please do not reply with "what about Evangeline Downs".You make a very good argument for fewer race tracks. Fewer race tracks means larger fields. Besides what happen to racing the horse more often. I have yet hear a reason why a horse could run every 2 weeks in 60s and now needs 4 or 5 weeks to recover from its last race. If they started racing running horses 2 weeks apart like they use to the size of the fields would double. Please do not reply with "the horse are too fragile these days"

[cosmicway]

The young person might go out of curiousity or in a company or family outing, but to get their commitment the game needs to be perceived as beatable in the long term.
I already addressed that a person doesn't need to know the takeout, they just need to know if there are long term winners, however high takeout makes it next to impossible to have such role models.

Assuming that the maths teachers in the country are on permanent strike, the newbie won't go very far knowing nothing about takeouts and such.

There is the following axiom:

"I don't know maths but the bucks in my pocket always know"

[Dahoss9698]

those guys are smart. we sent mott cuyuga waters in he did a super job. i can't remember a horse that went to mott that hasn't done well. same thing with motion. but its not like the horses are trained any different than the ones that go to lesser trainers. we just ran second in the msw race in gulfstream that i thought was going to win. there are some small trainers that have the same good stock, know how to train, yet they don't beat these big guys.

it all comes down to this, in a poker game the guy that holds the most chips usually wins, its the same in horse racing today, its just not such a random sport any more.

What you are suggesting is that all trainers are the same and it isn't true.

[Robert Goren]

That would have worked 20 years ago, but most things do actually have to be 'faster' these days. Personally I don't like this trend, but there's not much I can do about it. Having to wait for anything tends to annoy most people these days, especially when they have alternatives.

I don't buy into the simulcast argument (as mentioned here). Surely most people don't want to spend their day at the track watching races on a TV monitor? I know I don't. I'd prefer a smaller card with bigger fields, and less time in between races.Finally something we agree on.

[Dahoss9698]

That would have worked 20 years ago, but most things do actually have to be 'faster' these days. Personally I don't like this trend, but there's not much I can do about it. Having to wait for anything tends to annoy most people these days, especially when they have alternatives.

I don't buy into the simulcast argument (as mentioned here). Surely most people don't want to spend their day at the track watching races on a TV monitor? I know I don't. I'd prefer a smaller card with bigger fields, and less time in between races.

I have a hard time buying the not fast enough argument considering how much money is bet annually on sporting events by younger people. If they can wait hours for a game to be played they will certainly wait the 20-25 minutes in between races.

I get that as a society we are interested in the right here, right now, but there are exceptions. It's all about making the product attractive. Education makes it more attractive.

[The Hawk]

The game has lots of problems, and there's lots of room for improvement, but didn't Santa Anita get nearly 50,000 people out there on a Monday afternoon? I know, it was a holiday, but so was Jan. 2nd, and the Winter Classic hockey game in Philadelphia drew about the same number with about 1000 times the promotion. I know the events are not similar but the point is that while there aren't going to be 20,000 people at every track every Saturday all year long, racing is not dead.

People also like to talk about how many people used to go to the track 30 years ago, conveniently forgetting that was before simulcasting. Still, I'd love to know the total number of people betting on a given Saturday or Sunday, from home, at OTW's and at the tracks. I think it would be shocking to the doomsayers. And the fact that handle was up at Golden Gate, Hawthorne and Charles Town is an indication that SOMEBODY is betting these races.

[lamboguy]

What you are suggesting is that all trainers are the same and it isn't true.i am saying there are different circumstances. when you deal with numbers there are more people that work in an operation. if a horse is not at the top of his game in big operations you don't see them on the track. the big operations have people that don't care about the money to get winners.

its really the same thing like wallmart, cvs, home depot. those company's operate in big volume, and little guys can't compete.

we got another one in miami this race, i love the horse, but we drew awful for his first start on turf. #13

[Dahoss9698]

if a horse is not at the top of his game in big operations you don't see them on the track.

Again, this isn't true. I'm going to bow out now before we take this any further off topic. But you have a habit of speaking in absolutes and if there is one thing to take away from horse racing is that there aren't any absolutes.

[VastinMT]

I have a hard time buying the not fast enough argument considering how much money is bet annually on sporting events by younger people. If they can wait hours for a game to be played they will certainly wait the 20-25 minutes in between races.

I get that as a society we are interested in the right here, right now, but there are exceptions. It's all about making the product attractive. Education makes it more attractive.

What if tracks offered bets that were more like football bets? What if tracks offered bets on how many races a particular jockey wins that day? or a trainer? how bout an over/under? then make all those bets "in progress" so that the bets could be bought and sold as the day progressed? Shoot -- why not do this for standings for the entire meet?

Offer something like this, make a day's racing worth paying attention to for the full day, make the takeout on these bets more like football's 4.5 percent -- and we grayhairs would soon be dramatically outnumbered at the track. The youngsters would learn to handicap in no time.

[5k-claim]

Again, this isn't true. I'm going to bow out now before we take this any further off topic. But you have a habit of speaking in absolutes and if there is one thing to take away from horse racing is that there aren't any absolutes. You are certainly right about that. But his basic premise is pretty solid, if not absolute. It is like comparing the handicappers with the bigger bankrolls that are able to withstand longer droughts and sitting out, with those with bankrolls that have them always a little bit closer to the edge and tapping out. Probably a lot of handicappers are familiar with how things can get harder the closer you are to the edge.

I agree with what you said in Post #16:.... having so few trainers with so many horses isn't a good thing. In fact it's part of the reason horse racing is in the position it is in. When a few guys run things, competition, which is what this sport is predicated on will (and as we have seen does) suffer. I think there are some people who think it would be a good thing for racing to shrink down to just a few tracks and a handful of trainers. That would probably be an example of "be careful what you wish for."

Personally, I feel that what fans and handicappers should be wanting is for the more honest horsemen to survive and the more dishonest ones to be weeded out. Both of those groups are made up of members in all shapes and sizes.

As for the sport being a dying industry. To just draw out one idea, I like the comments about making everything feel more like a game- and a beatable game at that- for new bettors. Heck, I drive by places that are holding Bingo games and there are lots of cars in the lot. I am guessing they are there because the game is super easy to play and they think they have a shot at winning.

Also, it probably would be a good idea for handicappers to have role models, like the card players have. But this is one area where handicappers should put aside their love affair with bitching and moaning for just a few moments and take on at least some responsibility for themselves. (They can still set aside plenty for the officials.) They could try smiling a little bit more and acting like they are having fun. This board is the top of the line for handicappers, and young potential handicappers to check some things out. But for that younger group, so much of the heavy negativity must come across like a dreadful, scary visit from the Ghost of Christmas Future. [You mean I am going to end up miserable like that?]

.

[cosmicway]

What if tracks offered bets that were more like football bets? What if tracks offered bets on how many races a particular jockey wins that day? or a trainer? how bout an over/under? then make all those bets "in progress" so that the bets could be bought and sold as the day progressed? Shoot -- why not do this for standings for the entire meet?

Offer something like this, make a day's racing worth paying attention to for the full day, make the takeout on these bets more like football's 4.5 percent -- and we grayhairs would soon be dramatically outnumbered at the track. The youngsters would learn to handicap in no time.

All innovations are useful.
Long shots are also attractive, but at reasonable takeout percentage, not twice or three times the win pool takeout !
With a long shot win you can become rich. Difficult but not impossible.
Also these things should be backed by the appropriate automation systems. If I want to play 100 pick 6 lines and they expect me to write them down one by one, forget it. But I can make them into a zip file and the racetrack's tote system should be able to recognize it.

[Dave Schwartz]

What if tracks offered bets that were more like football bets? What if tracks offered bets on how many races a particular jockey wins that day? or a trainer? how bout an over/under? then make all those bets "in progress" so that the bets could be bought and sold as the day progressed? Shoot -- why not do this for standings for the entire meet?

Offer something like this, make a day's racing worth paying attention to for the full day, make the takeout on these bets more like football's 4.5 percent -- and we grayhairs would soon be dramatically outnumbered at the track. The youngsters would learn to handicap in no time.


As the previous poster said, innovation is always good.

However, you nailed it with the bold part: the takeout is simply too high. All the innovation in the world will not stem the tide if they do not fix that problem.

Consider this... If you do not like (say) country music, can I entice you to a CM concert by putting in a slot machine? Yes, I can. That is, I can get you into the building, but you may well wear earplugs so you don't have to listen to the music.

The point is that you cannot "grow a concern" by adding disconnected perks.

That is precisely what racing is trying to do.

Racing must address the core issue which is, "The business model is broken."


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[hansend]

As a 27 year old who is slowing getting his way into this game (been a ghost reader on this forum since 2009) who started around the age of 23 I think the biggest issue for me has been the time inbetween races.

Yes, before I was married I could go to the OTB and get a race every two minutes and even if I tried to handicap using the newspaper the night before I found it difficult to manage when I was trying to find value and post times were going off so frequently. So from a "newbie" standpoint the OTB every two minute argument for me was very overwhelming and I didnt get to play/look at many of the races I had handicapped which was a little frustrating.

Now that I am married the OTB option is out of the question and due to the time between races (Fonner Park has roughly 20-22 minutes between and it sounds like that is short!) it is very difficult to have an "afternoon" out for fun with friends/family when the fun potentially runs into the evening and supper time.

Now maybe my friends/family are not the type of "bettors" you are looking to attract, but I can say that there have been many of times where we will go just for the first half of the day (or last half) because of how long we have to wait between races.

I know I am just one of the "younger" generation, but I felt like saying what my experiences have led me to.

[cosmicway]

Horse race bettors live long.
If there are some guys from 1926 still around, they are still enjoying the game.
Punters' lifetime in other games or chance is shorter or considerably shorter.
But even so, there is a "lifetime" and trouble is there are no replacements for the old guard.

The racing authorities should attend more closely to the punter's needs.
All the revenues come from the betting. Some odd sources of extra income from toothpaste banner adds in some racetracks and in other racetracks not even that.
But in several occasions, perhaps not everywhere, we are witnessing an ignorant behaviour. The type of behaviour that is sure to guarantee last place if you are an election candidate. That's a lose-lose situation.
They do not even take lessons from communities such as this one, where we debate things on equal footing.

[grant miller]

all my non race freinds think that racings "fixed" and nothing i say or do changes there minds.

[mannyberrios]

The game has lots of problems, and there's lots of room for improvement, but didn't Santa Anita get nearly 50,000 people out there on a Monday afternoon? I know, it was a holiday, but so was Jan. 2nd, and the Winter Classic hockey game in Philadelphia drew about the same number with about 1000 times the promotion. I know the events are not similar but the point is that while there aren't going to be 20,000 people at every track every Saturday all year long, racing is not dead.

People also like to talk about how many people used to go to the track 30 years ago, conveniently forgetting that was before simulcasting. Still, I'd love to know the total number of people betting on a given Saturday or Sunday, from home, at OTW's and at the tracks. I think it would be shocking to the doomsayers. And the fact that handle was up at Golden Gate, Hawthorne and Charles Town is an indication that SOMEBODY is betting these races.That is true! Well said!

[cosmicway]

all my non race freinds think that racings "fixed" and nothing i say or do changes there minds.

Ha !
That's an old established view.

In youtube the 90 year old journalist who knew Al Kapone, tells us how Al liked him because he was a nice guy and gave him a sure. That old journalist must be 110 now, from the time the video was uploaded - search it.

But the various hangarounds of the world's race courses also like the idea of fixes, so they can create connections. First thing they care about is to pose as "in crowd". Posing as racing experts is also not unimportant to them, but it is a secondary consideration.

So it's tails we win, heads you lose.

Imagine the following thought experiment:
You are in the main hall of Berkley university and professor Albert Einstein is sitting on a desk and he is helping the sophomores with their race cards, for free.
On a nearby table is Calamity Jane, or some such character, and she is also helping the sophomore students, with the latest activity from the gangster world.
Which of the two college tutors will attract more crowds you reckon ?

In the real world of racing it's the same.
But in modern times it does n't work.
We are no longer visiting our local race course, like we used to.
We use the internet and racecourses are located pretty far, from where the average person lives.
So the Al Kapone system is dead and -in direct consequence- honesty and integrity issues become paramount like they never used to be.
We live in an age where Caesar's wife has to appear honest.

[Greyfox]

As a 27 year old who is slowing getting his way into this game (been a ghost reader on this forum since 2009) who started around the age of 23 I think the biggest issue for me has been the time inbetween races.

.

Yes. And many more young potential players like yourself need to be interviewed to find out why racing is failing to draw your age groups.

[Dahoss9698]

Also, it probably would be a good idea for handicappers to have role models, like the card players have. But this is one area where handicappers should put aside their love affair with bitching and moaning for just a few moments and take on at least some responsibility for themselves. (They can still set aside plenty for the officials.) They could try smiling a little bit more and acting like they are having fun. This board is the top of the line for handicappers, and young potential handicappers to check some things out. But for that younger group, so much of the heavy negativity must come across like a dreadful, scary visit from the Ghost of Christmas Future. [You mean I am going to end up miserable like that?]

.

Agree with a good portion of what you said in the post. As I said to Lamboguy, I agree with his premise. But to me there is a difference between certain trainers that have a lot of horses and others. Without getting too much into it on the board it has to do with my own perception and who I feel is on the up and up, so to speak.

But your last paragraph is what I found the most interesting because it is so true. It's something I was trying to get across in the long NYRA thread the other day. Horseplayers, more than any other gamblers I have ever encountered love to blame losing on everything but their own handicapping. I'm guilty of it plenty myself.

We're consumed by the negative stuff and if anyone doubts it check out how many responses the threads that discuss positive things get, compared to the neagtive.

[cosmicway]

It's in man's nature to look for scapegoats, even when bad handicapping is to blame or just plain misfortune.
Look at it also the other way. Once I lost an overlay bet because the girl jockey mismanaged the reigns. I was cursing, but then I said to myself "wait, if it was n't the girl but a champion jockey aboard, what sort of overlay could that be ?".
So everybody makes stories x N of what is actually true, where N is a number from 2 to 10.

But there are two sides in the coin because while all that is going on, we know they are doing it and somehow a police state is needed to take care of things.
It can't be disguised.
For me putting up a defense fror the system, is like being paroled from Sing Sing - Alkatraz and then saying to you "Listen here, all the guys in Sing Sing - Alkatraz are innocent. Anyone who thinks those folks are guilty is a fool".

Horse racing is about money from prizes and also from betting.
Other competitive sports are affected likewise, but they also have the championship motive, the motive to reach high attendances and the motive to sign high contracts. So gambling may be relegated to fourth-fifth place.
On the other hand horse racing is intrinsically vulnerable and more often than not we see authorities trying to hide and disguise things instead of planning and taking vigorous action.

[thaskalos]

But your last paragraph is what I found the most interesting because it is so true. It's something I was trying to get across in the long NYRA thread the other day. Horseplayers, more than any other gamblers I have ever encountered love to blame losing on everything but their own handicapping. I'm guilty of it plenty myself.


We horseplayers DO complain more than we should...but, to be honest, we cannot be compared with "other gamblers"...because we are exposed to things that other gamblers never have to deal with.

This game is not monitored as closely as it should be...and that makes it very hard for the interested beginner to keep his interest alive in the game.

Take a look at the last race tonight at Delta Downs...

Now, I don't particularly object to seeing the 7-horse win the race; these things happen, and are readily explained.

But when this horse goes off at 5-1 odds, the knowledgeable horseplayer has a legitimate grievance...and has a RIGHT to complain.

How do we explain races like this to an interested newcomer...without having him run for the door, never to return?

[Dahoss9698]

We horseplayers DO complain more than we should...but, to be honest, we cannot be compared with "other gamblers"...because we are exposed to things that other gamblers never have to deal with.

This game is not monitored as closely as it should be...and that makes it very hard for the interested beginner to keep his interest alive in the game.

Take a look at the last race tonight at Delta Downs...

Now, I don't particularly object to seeing the 7-horse win the race; these things happen, and are readily explained.

But when this horse goes off at 5-1 odds, the knowledgeable horseplayer has a legitimate grievance...and has a RIGHT to complain.

How do we explain races like this to an interested newcomer...without having him run for the door, never to return?

I can't believe you actually forced me to look at the PP's for a 10k maiden claimer at Delta. Knowing very little about Delta and just looking at the race briefly, I would imagine someone knew something and bet accordingly. I wouldn't have bet the winner, but I also don't think I could have bet anyone else in there unless I knew something. Unfortunately that is always going to be a part of the game. We can't really do anything about it.

I'm not being difficult, but races like that are often hard to look at and explaining them is even harder. We're never going to be able to make sense of somethings. I realize that isn't the answer you're looking for, but it's all I got.

It's not like we're the only group of gamblers impacted by stuff beyond our control. What did companies that ran online poker games tell people when it was proven there was cheating going on? I'm serious, how did they respond to it all because I don't know? How about the scandals with that NBA ref(s) who was placing bets on games and shaving points?

I think we're looking at it with our own hardened ideas from playing the game and forgetting what it's like for someone who first gets introduced to the track. And that is a big part of it. Get them to the track, preferably a place like Saratoga, Del Mar, Gulfstream, Arlington, Churchill After Dark...a place where there are other people their age there, doing the same thing. The track is a great place to be.

You get to see the horses and the people watching is second to none. Something I like to do when a big group gets together to go is to pool a small amount of money together. I put together a pick 3 or 4 play for us to root on and the rest of the day we play a few horses to win. That way they don't invest a lot of money and they can still have a good time because we're all rooting for the same thing. Plus, it means I can still sneak away and make the bets I need to bet.

Teach them about handicapping (baby steps) and see what happens. The worst thing that can happen is they never want to go again. But, when you get a call from a buddy who you brought to the track a few times and he wants to know your opinion on the late double at Aqueduct on a Thursday because he stopped by an OTB on his lunch break..we have someone interested.

I know there are a lot of things that could be improved. But I just don't think it's THAT bad...or I wouldn't be doing it anymore. If those of us doing it are unhappy with it, how can we possibly expect others to join in our misery? Would you?

[cosmicway]

It's like this.
If you are a local you don't mind the occasional hanky panky.
You may even cash in sometimes and therefore be tolerent.
But the times they-are-a-changing. Betting is nationwide and cross continent also. Take that away and the revenues diminish to nothing.
So they all have to scratch their heads.

[thaskalos]

I can't believe you actually forced me to look at the PP's for a 10k maiden claimer at Delta. Knowing very little about Delta and just looking at the race briefly, I would imagine someone knew something and bet accordingly. I wouldn't have bet the winner, but I also don't think I could have bet anyone else in there unless I knew something. Unfortunately that is always going to be a part of the game. We can't really do anything about it.

I'm not being difficult, but races like that are often hard to look at and explaining them is even harder. We're never going to be able to make sense of somethings. I realize that isn't the answer you're looking for, but it's all I got.

It's not like we're the only group of gamblers impacted by stuff beyond our control. What did companies that ran online poker games tell people when it was proven there was cheating going on? I'm serious, how did they respond to it all because I don't know? How about the scandals with that NBA ref(s) who was placing bets on games and shaving points?

I think we're looking at it with our own hardened ideas from playing the game and forgetting what it's like for someone who first gets introduced to the track. And that is a big part of it. Get them to the track, preferably a place like Saratoga, Del Mar, Gulfstream, Arlington, Churchill After Dark...a place where there are other people their age there, doing the same thing. The track is a great place to be.

You get to see the horses and the people watching is second to none. Something I like to do when a big group gets together to go is to pool a small amount of money together. I put together a pick 3 or 4 play for us to root on and the rest of the day we play a few horses to win. That way they don't invest a lot of money and they can still have a good time because we're all rooting for the same thing. Plus, it means I can still sneak away and make the bets I need to bet.

Teach them about handicapping (baby steps) and see what happens. The worst thing that can happen is they never want to go again. But, when you get a call from a buddy who you brought to the track a few times and he wants to know your opinion on the late double at Aqueduct on a Thursday because he stopped by an OTB on his lunch break..we have someone interested.

I know there are a lot of things that could be improved. But I just don't think it's THAT bad...or I wouldn't be doing it anymore. If those of us doing it are unhappy with it, how can we possibly expect others to join in our misery? Would you?
Let me start off by saying that I am very impressed by the thoroughness of your answers. I appreciate it very much...and I am not being passive-aggressive here...so don't get any ideas.

Here is the deal...the way I see it.

I agree with everything you have said in this thread...and in other threads where you discuss the pros and cons of this game.

You are right, the good outweighs the bad in this game...but for how long?

If the right measures are not taken by the authorities to keep this game as honest as possible...who is to say what the future will hold?

You mentioned online poker...

Let me talk about that for a minute...since I got to be pretty deeply involved in it over the last few years.

People say that young gamblers are unwilling to put forth the effort needed to become proficient in this game. They say that our game is TOO HARD.

I disagree completely!

Young people have proven conclusively that they are willing to work VERY hard in order to learn how to properly play a gambling game...assuming they consider this to be a game worth PLAYING!

When online poker was still offered in this country, no-limit holdem was KING...and no-limit holdem books FLOODED the marketplace. These books were written by winning players...and they were WAY more sophisticated than any book ever published about horseracing.

And yet, these books were devoured by the THOUSANDS...by eager young players who recognized the profit potential that online no-limit holdem had to offer...and who were willing to spend the time necessary to learn the intricacies of the game.

Online poker -- although illegal -- was so well organized...it put horse racing to SHAME.

When I started getting serious about the game...I enrolled into one of the many "online poker schools" which were advertised on the internet. There -- for $30 a month...unlimited access -- I would be allowed to watch over the shoulder of a professional online poker player, as he plied his trade at the tables...while explaining to me his actions and his thinking process.

ALL sorts of games...and ALL the different stakes.

Can you compare that to what THIS game currently offers, to the young players it is trying to attract?

We don't have to "baby" the new players in order to get them interested in this game.

All we have to do is prove to them that our game is worth PLAYING!

But we can't do that when the game has serious integrity issues.

Because no poker player likes to be dealt from the bottom of the deck.

[Dahoss9698]

Good stuff man. My head is pounding and I need to go to bed. I'll respond tomorrow when I have some time.

[menifee]

If you charge a high price (takeout) for a poor product, most businesses will fail. Right now, we have slots subsidizing horse racing, but that is a short sighted solution and will eventually fail.

There is no leadership in the industry. We have small fields and horses that are not durable anymore. The product is bad and the price is high. It's not a mystery as to why the sport is struggling.

Despite that, the sport will always have the ability to capture the nation's heart because it is a great sport. It just needs a superstar to do it. I'm thirty five and I honestly can say that I'm still waiting to see my first once in a generation horse (Citation, Secretariat, Man O'War). The closest that I have seen is Ghostzapper, but he did not run in the Triple Crown series and had very limited races.

[The Hawk]

We have small fields and horses that are not durable anymore. The product is bad and the price is high. It's not a mystery as to why the sport is struggling.

This is true, but the obvious answer, at least to me, is less racing. You'd have bigger fields, bigger payoffs, bigger crowds, more betting. One of the reasons racing was so popular -- there were many -- is because there was a sense of seasons, as opposed to what it is now, which is seemingly 24/7. It dilutes the product and hurts the brand. For the most part, nothing about it is special to the average person, with the exception of the Triple Crown, and you can't really blame them for that line of thinking.

In the Mid-Atlantic region we have LRL, PARX, DEL, MTH, PEN, etc. all running against each other every day, and every one of those tracks puts on substandard racing because of needless competition. As you said, there is no leadership. If there were, and the tracks were able to work together, things would improve dramatically. But how long have we been saying that?

[cosmicway]

Italy is in big crisis now.
Dettori was pictured today with a shirt saying "save Italian racing".

Italians seem to be against foreign racing which is daft imho.
By the same token don't take part in football champions league (where Italy thrives) also soccer world cup !

[Dahoss9698]

We don't have to "baby" the new players in order to get them interested in this game.

All we have to do is prove to them that our game is worth PLAYING!

But we can't do that when the game has serious integrity issues.

Because no poker player likes to be dealt from the bottom of the deck.

I'm not suggesting "babying" them. But a little education would go a long way.

I agree that with the current integrity issues it isn't easy to convince people to play the game. However are our integrity issues worse than the cheating that was going on in online poker? Are they worse than the NBA refereeing scandals?

I don't know. I really don't.

[cosmicway]

Education is necessary.
Here are my specifications of horse racing educational material:

1 - Should make use of all available methods, i.e. text, video, audio, java applets.
2 - Should concentrate on the handicapping side of things. Stuff like history, ancient history, race course photos, detailed rules is also good to have, at the end of the core presentation.
3 - Easy to grasp so the reader is not becoming tired/bored.
4 - At the end of reading the reader should feel confident he can tackle some races himself.

This type of thing was difficult in pre internet days and much more so in pre windows computer days. Also rather uneconomic to produce.
Now it's easier. Some uncoordinated efforts do exist, mainly for US racing.

Pay attention that horse racing is difficult to understand by the uninitiated.
It's not like football where most of us learned what we learned from between the ages of 8 to 10 - and made insignificant progress thereafter. It's more tricky.

The race courses traditionally care about sand, tractors, floodlights and employees leave applications, as was their lot for many years. Now they have to jump into action.