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cj
12-14-2011, 04:46 PM
The trainers involved with this horse the last several months of his life (3rd race at Aqueduct today) should be ashamed of themselves. They passed the horse around squeezing a few bucks out of him until he finally died.

I have a hard time believing these "horsemen" gave a crap about him or his welfare.

igiveupregistering
12-14-2011, 04:51 PM
The trainers involved with this horse the last several months of his life (3rd race at Aqueduct today) should be ashamed of themselves. They passed the horse around squeezing a few bucks out of him until he finally died.

I have a hard time believing these "horsemen" gave a crap about him or his welfare.

No disagreement here.

You are 100% on target.

They don't. Become callous and cynical.

nijinski
12-14-2011, 06:19 PM
There was a claim in on this last race as well.
The horse certainly had alot of heart but definately was squeezed as pointed out. :( RIP!

classhandicapper
12-14-2011, 06:20 PM
I was at the track today and saw that he was breaking down near the wire, but I didn't know that he got put down. Sad.

It's a business. So money is always going to be a factor in the decision making, but IMO it's pretty clear that the balance between the welfare of the animals and the money is often out of whack. It's really a shame.

tzipi
12-14-2011, 07:13 PM
The trainers involved with this horse the last several months of his life (3rd race at Aqueduct today) should be ashamed of themselves. They passed the horse around squeezing a few bucks out of him until he finally died.

I have a hard time believing these "horsemen" gave a crap about him or his welfare.

Happens all the time sadly. Shame he broke down.

magwell
12-14-2011, 07:35 PM
This thread is the epitome of 20-20 vision .....if he ran big and not broke down not a word would have been said.......wow

horses4courses
12-14-2011, 07:44 PM
This thread is the epitome of 20-20 vision .....if he ran big and not broke down not a word would have been said.......wow

That's the purpose of this thread.
It is the ugly side of the sport.
Some criticism is deserved.

FantasticDan
12-14-2011, 07:49 PM
I need some elaboration on the basis for the criticism. Looking at his PPs, he's been a fairly lightly-raced horse over his career, and 17/19 starts have been in the money. Seems like the kind of horse most trainers would love to have. So the horse broke down because he'd been claimed a couple times over five starts (not including today) in 2011?

In other words, the trainers all knew he was talented, but un-sound? And they "passed him around" accordingly? Is that the implication?

cj
12-14-2011, 07:53 PM
I need some elaboration on the basis for the criticism. Looking at his PPs, he's been a fairly lightly-raced horse over his career, and 17/19 starts have been in the money. Seems like the kind of horse most trainers would love to have. So the horse broke down because he'd been claimed a couple times over five starts (not including today) in 2011?

In other words, the trainers all knew he was talented, but un-sound? And they "passed him around" accordingly? Is that the implication?
check out the claiming tags

classhandicapper
12-14-2011, 08:04 PM
He was a consistent horse, but he's had a number of lengthy layoffs over his career and in the last few races he was dropped sharply in class. That's the profile of a horse with physical problems that the owner/trainer is giving up on. Some of these will continue racing and slowly decline without breaking down, but I think it's fairly clear this horse had issues.

FantasticDan
12-14-2011, 08:39 PM
Ah, okay. Thanks for the clarification. I hadn't noticed the declining tags.

Linny
12-14-2011, 10:11 PM
Ah, okay. Thanks for the clarification. I hadn't noticed the declining tags.


Jason Servis put in a claim on him today so clearly he was willing to take the chance despite the risks.

cj
12-14-2011, 10:12 PM
Jason Servis put in a claim on him today so clearly he was willing to take the chance despite the risks.

He probably wasn't the only one.

GatetoWire
12-14-2011, 10:49 PM
This type of thing is always going to happen at tracks with slot fueled purses.

When a $14K claimer goes for a purse of $28K you are going to see trainers looking to make a quick buck.

1st place money is $16,800 plus the $14K claim price. After paying the jockey and keeping the horse a few weeks Chatterpaul made a nice little profit.

Sad but true.

Ernie Dahlman
12-15-2011, 07:12 AM
This type of thing is always going to happen at tracks with slot fueled purses.

When a $14K claimer goes for a purse of $28K you are going to see trainers looking to make a quick buck.

1st place money is $16,800 plus the $14K claim price. After paying the jockey and keeping the horse a few weeks Chatterpaul made a nice little profit.

Sad but true.

Aqueduct won't have "slot fueled purses" until Jan 1.

nijinski
12-15-2011, 08:24 AM
This thread is the epitome of 20-20 vision .....if he ran big and not broke down not a word would have been said.......wow
We've had discussion's in the past of horses that look to be at risk and some of them fortunately get adopted before this happens. Some get vanned off.

I think the horse's year off , drop down in the pp's while he's hitting the board and winning as well raises questions / red flags.

cj
12-15-2011, 08:39 AM
This type of thing is always going to happen at tracks with slot fueled purses.

When a $14K claimer goes for a purse of $28K you are going to see trainers looking to make a quick buck.

1st place money is $16,800 plus the $14K claim price. After paying the jockey and keeping the horse a few weeks Chatterpaul made a nice little profit.

Sad but true.

Ernie is correct, but you do make an interesting point. Claiming prices have not changed in line with purses. I'm curious what the fallout would be if they were.

igiveupregistering
12-15-2011, 09:40 AM
This type of thing is always going to happen at tracks with slot fueled purses.

When a $14K claimer goes for a purse of $28K you are going to see trainers looking to make a quick buck.

1st place money is $16,800 plus the $14K claim price. After paying the jockey and keeping the horse a few weeks Chatterpaul made a nice little profit.

Sad but true.


Chatterpaul's MO is to race his steeds alot...has one going tomorrow with 22 races so far in 2011...racing for 10k as almost ALL of his horses do unless it is a 7.5k race...

Ernie Dahlman
12-15-2011, 10:04 AM
Chatterpaul's MO is to race his steeds alot...has one going tomorrow with 22 races so far in 2011...racing for 10k as almost ALL of his horses do unless it is a 7.5k race...

He won the Grade 1 Manhattan and ran 2nd to Gio Ponti (in a photo) in the Grade 1 Man o'War with Mission Approved, a NY bred he claimed for $35000.

nijinski
12-15-2011, 11:01 AM
He won the Grade 1 Manhattan and ran 2nd to Gio Ponti (in a photo) in the Grade 1 Man o'War with Mission Approved, a NY bred he claimed for $35000.
Then he hauled him over to Japan this year which didn't turn out too great.

atlasaxis
12-15-2011, 11:31 AM
The trainers involved with this horse the last several months of his life (3rd race at Aqueduct today) should be ashamed of themselves. They passed the horse around squeezing a few bucks out of him until he finally died.

I have a hard time believing these "horsemen" gave a crap about him or his welfare.


I read that the horse was vanned off but where does it say he was put down?

cj
12-15-2011, 11:34 AM
I read that the horse was vanned off but where does it say he was put down?

I don't know, but he was.

atlasaxis
12-15-2011, 11:52 AM
I don't know, but he was.

source?

FantasticDan
12-15-2011, 11:54 AM
I read that the horse was vanned off but where does it say he was put down?It was mentioned on the NYRA replay show. Also here:

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/horse_racing/through_the_binocs_I5RBERhmrjvB7uIHrW57OP?CMP=OTC-rss&FEEDNAME=

cj
12-15-2011, 11:57 AM
source?

Believe it or not, why would I make that up?

atlasaxis
12-15-2011, 12:03 PM
It was mentioned on the NYRA replay show. Also here:

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/horse_racing/through_the_binocs_I5RBERhmrjvB7uIHrW57OP?CMP=OTC-rss&FEEDNAME=
Thanks Dan. Apparently that was too difficult for CJ to simply state.

cj
12-15-2011, 12:05 PM
Thanks Dan. Apparently that was too difficult for CJ to simply state.

I didn't have a link and don't remember how I heard it, Steve Byk maybe? You could have searched Google as well as I could have done. It didn't really matter unless you thought I was making it up which would be ridiculous.

tbwinner
12-15-2011, 12:26 PM
I claim horses pretty often and do agree that declining claim prices while winning is usually a pretty bad sign...unless it's a specific trainer that I know of.

Would anyone be able to share the PPs of this one?

atlasaxis
12-15-2011, 12:28 PM
I didn't have a link and don't remember how I heard it, Steve Byk maybe? You could have searched Google as well as I could have done. It didn't really matter unless you thought I was making it up which would be ridiculous.

Don't be so paranoid CJ. No one is questioning your integrity. It was a simple question. Haven't you ever seen a horse vanned off and wondered what happened? I did google it and nothing came up. I thought you might have a site that offered up that info.

FantasticDan
12-15-2011, 01:08 PM
Would anyone be able to share the PPs of this one?Easily available via equibase.com - just type the name into their horse search:

http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbHorseInfo.cfm?refno=7828995&registry=T

cj
12-15-2011, 01:10 PM
Don't be so paranoid CJ. No one is questioning your integrity. It was a simple question. Haven't you ever seen a horse vanned off and wondered what happened? I did google it and nothing came up. I thought you might have a site that offered up that info.

All good man...I just would never pass that along if I didn't know it was true. I simply didn't know off the top of my head why I knew. If you asked me yesterday, I'd have known.

As far as dropping off a win, this was even more than that. The horse was winning in a manner and with such speed he would normally be moved up quite a bit, not dropped.

FantasticDan
12-15-2011, 01:23 PM
As far as dropping off a win, this was even more than that. The horse was winning in a manner and with such speed he would normally be moved up quite a bit, not dropped.I was watching the replay online yesterday and said wow to myself when he spurted away strongly in the stretch. Then he took a bad step, and even tho he kept running, I turned away from the screen. I didn't even see the second, catastrophic bad step right before the wire.. I killed the replay as soon as I heard Imbriale call it.

cj
12-15-2011, 01:29 PM
Easily available via equibase.com - just type the name into their horse search:

http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbHorseInfo.cfm?refno=7828995&registry=T

Normally I wouldn't post PPs, but I don't think there is much market for PPs for a deceased horse, so here goes:

http://www.pacefigures.com/images/soh.png

PhantomOnTour
12-15-2011, 01:35 PM
Everything was cool with me until the drop in the last race to 14k after airing for 35k.
Horse was undefeated for a tag.

tbwinner
12-15-2011, 03:09 PM
Hmmm. The chart doesn't show it but wondering if anyone knows what the $35k Claimer's conditions were? It says Clm35000B so I assume it had an attached 'non-winners' condition...

The drop was of concern as is the amount of spacing between races so he must've had some kind of on-going problem, probably soundness-related rather than bleeding, mucous, etc..

I guess the key thing would be did Chatterpaul knowingly send out a horse with fractured or torn sesamoids..

cj
12-15-2011, 06:56 PM
Hmmm. The chart doesn't show it but wondering if anyone knows what the $35k Claimer's conditions were? It says Clm35000B so I assume it had an attached 'non-winners' condition...

The drop was of concern as is the amount of spacing between races so he must've had some kind of on-going problem, probably soundness-related rather than bleeding, mucous, etc..

I guess the key thing would be did Chatterpaul knowingly send out a horse with fractured or torn sesamoids..

Yes, it was a race for horses that hadn't won on turf in a certain timeframe (year) then was taken off the turf.