Monmouth Park back to square one!

[onefast99]

Monmouth Park's future has been thrust into question as a deal to privatize the state-owned Oceanport racetrack has fallen through (http://www.app.com/article/20111207/NJNEWS1002/312070015/Rift-derails-talks-Monmouth-Park-deal), the Asbury Park Press reported

The Christie administration broke off talks, according to the Press, due to a dispute with the New Jersey Thoroughbred Horsemen’s Association over the number of days the track will hold racing

The stalemate between the association and the governor's administration has cost prospective manager of the track, real estate developer Morris Bailey, a chance to complete the deal

At this point the only thing I can say for Mr. Bailey is we’re extremely disappointed. We don’t know what’s next,” Bailey's attorney, Ronald J. Riccio told the paper

[lamboguy]

some rep in jersey introduced a bill to stick slot machines in the race tracks.

the only way that would go through is if christy becomes the next president. in my opinion, that guy don't want racetracks in new jersey

[onefast99]

Looks as if Bailey may be out as the leasee of MP.

[toussaud]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/66574/new-jersey-governor-puts-blame-on-horsemen

[Spiderman]

some rep in jersey introduced a bill to stick slot machines in the race tracks.

the only way that would go through is if christy becomes the next president. in my opinion, that guy don't want racetracks in new jersey


Christie will not be re-elected. To know him is to not love him.

[toussaud]

I don't' think it has anything to o with him not wanting tracks in NJ, I think h e just doesn't want to have to subsidize the industry. I kinda agree with him. shit is getting old. run a meet that you can afford to run, just like any other business. stop looking for handouts, and stop crying to your momma because your bother has a bigger piece of chicken than you do at the dinner table.

[phattty]

''I don't' think it has anything to o with him not wanting tracks in NJ, I think h e just doesn't want to have to subsidize the industry. ''

close all museums, state parks, libraries too while your @ it

also add more employees to take care of thousands who work and contribute to the economy in the horse industry

[toussaud]

close all museums, state parks, libraries too while your @ it

come on man, seriously. that is the worst analogy i have ever heard in my life.

[nearco]

''I don't' think it has anything to o with him not wanting tracks in NJ, I think h e just doesn't want to have to subsidize the industry. ''

close all museums, state parks, libraries too while your @ it

also add more employees to take care of thousands who work and contribute to the economy in the horse industry

You seriously think that the horse industry should be artificially supported?
You equate horse racing to to a publically owned resource like a library, museum or state park?
So let me get this straight, artificially inflated prize money should be supplied for owners of horses, because it provides jobs for people in the horse industry?

This is a very unusual take on things for this board, which is usually more of the right wing, libertarian, free marketer type/

[Tampa Russ]

Oh well. I'm glad I made it to MTH while I could. Time to close up shop and move on.

[lamboguy]

don't write monmouth off so fast. they still have atlantic city money until 2015.

after that they are pretty much dead in the water unless they come up with a friendly governor or a different game plan

[toussaud]

the sad thing is, there really is a niche for the Monmouth park/jersey shore thing. a mid afternoon track that runs in the late spring/early summer for 2-3 months, 3 or so days a week, would work and I think while not employ the same amount of people now, would be able to eek out a living/ survive. In stead they run to freaking thanksgiving now.

but the horseman want the cake and to eat it too by "only going to 3 days" if they were to be able to make up for it by having stupid large purses that in no way reflect the amount of money the track is actually making. the horseman aren't allowing any type of sound business to fuction. It's quite sad but I don't blame Christie one bit. this has to stop.

[David-LV]

Christie will not be re-elected. To know him is to not love him.

The only way he could lose the next election is to change parties.

________
David-LV

[Mike_412]

"Forbes said that the horsemen offered to operate the lease under the same terms as Bailey. He said the horsemen had received a commitment for financial support for the operation of the lease, but he would not identify the party that would provide the funding"

http://www.drf.com/news/developer-walks-away-monmouth-park-lease-deal

You could have some fun speculating on who the party providing the funding is. It should be interesting to see what happens in the next week or so. I made it out to Monmouth for the 1st time this past September. Pretty sad considering I only live about an hour north of it. Really nice track that I enjoyed.

[redshift1]

Here's where Christie's interests lie.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd1E3460UD8

[Robert Goren]

The only way he could lose the next election is to change parties.

________
David-LVI agree that it is highly unlikely he would lose the next election. He laid off policemen, firemen and teachers and the horsemen think he is going to use state funds to keep a race track open. They must have been smoking that funny smelling alfalfa.

[toussaud]

I agree that it is highly unlikely he would lose the next election. He laid off policemen, firemen and teachers and the horsemen think he is going to use state funds to keep a race track open. They must have been smoking that funny smelling alfalfa.
That's why I don't mind at all. With Christie, at the very leatw you know he means what he is saying and you know where he stands. It's not like he's making a political gesture to just out the gaming industry. he honestly does not feel it's right to do this, especially if he's tightening the budget elsewhere.

The fact that he is laying off real jobs in other more important industries should at it's face have told the horseman he isn't F'ing around. This is not the time to play poker.

[The Hawk]

That's why I don't mind at all. With Christie, at the very leatw you know he means what he is saying and you know where he stands. It's not like he's making a political gesture to just out the gaming industry. he honestly does not feel it's right to do this, especially if he's tightening the budget elsewhere.

The fact that he is laying off real jobs in other more important industries should at it's face have told the horseman he isn't F'ing around. This is not the time to play poker.

These people who are against racing and/or slots at the tracks love to point out that Monmouth lost $6 or $7 million last year, and will do so again. That may or may not be accurate (it doesn't account for the OTB revenues, among other things), but it is clearly short-sighted.

According to an INDEPENDENT study (by Rutgers, I believe), racing in New Jersey provides $780 million of economic impact annually, 7,000 jobs, and $110 million in federal, state and local taxes. You're going to compare that to $7 million? Isn't $7 million worth 7,000 jobs and $110 million in taxes, not to mention the boosting of other business to the tune of $780 million? How about the town of Oceanport, which would likely be bankrupt without Monmouth Park? That's what this governor wants?

I understand you don't want to give away money, and you want the state out of the business. So get rid of it. But to threaten to shut down an entire industry because of a disagreement in negotiations makes you a bully, at best.

[Tom]

A billion dollar a yer industry, thousands of job directly or indirectly linked to T breds, the deal was agreed to, signed, and for 4 month the gov acted like he was a man of his word - which he clearly is not - then at the 11th hour, he drops the bomb. The mans smells worse than week old fish.

T Breds are not allowed to have a lobbyist, but harness can - because they contribute a lot of $$$ as tribute to his highness.

People like this governor are garbage. Believe this lying SOB at your own peril. He has 0 integrity.

[toussaud]

These people who are against racing and/or slots at the tracks love to point out that Monmouth lost $6 or $7 million last year, and will do so again. That may or may not be accurate (it doesn't account for the OTB revenues, among other things), but it is clearly short-sighted.

According to an INDEPENDENT study (by Rutgers, I believe), racing in New Jersey provides $780 million of economic impact annually, 7,000 jobs, and $110 million in federal, state and local taxes. You're going to compare that to $7 million? Isn't $7 million worth 7,000 jobs and $110 million in taxes, not to mention the boosting of other business to the tune of $780 million? How about the town of Oceanport, which would likely be bankrupt without Monmouth Park? That's what this governor wants?

I understand you don't want to give away money, and you want the state out of the business. So get rid of it. But to threaten to shut down an entire industry because of a disagreement in negotiations makes you a bully, at best. Actually it makes you a Republican ;)

A good analogy at this point would be a drug addict son whose parents keep bailing him out and giving him money only for him not to get right. At some point the parents have to cut cut out the support, and while if he is true to himself, he will try to blame the parents for being "heartless" and being "part of the problem" at the end of the day, he really has no one ot blame for himself.

at the end of the day, economic impact aside, Monmouth has themselves to blame for not running a more economically feasible meet. When the economy goes down, at least the police force, city goverment, public works people, cuts staff or cuts overtime / hours to try to make it work. lol, horse racing is the only industry I know that has the galls to sit there and demand more money when everyone else is tightening their belts, it's actually quite sickening. If all that stuff were really important to the horseman, they would run a 3 day meet at purses that make sense for the amount of money being wagered. They are doing nothing more than using the economic impact studies/figures to hold their hands out.

[The Hawk]

Actually it makes you a Republican ;)

A good analogy at this point would be a drug addict son whose parents keep bailing him out and giving him money only for him not to get right. At some point the parents have to cut cut out the support, and while if he is true to himself, he will try to blame the parents for being "heartless" and being "part of the problem" at the end of the day, he really has no one ot blame for himself.


That's not a good analogy, that's an awful analogy, on a few different levels.

at the end of the day, economic impact aside, Monmouth has themselves to blame for not running a more economically feasible meet. When the economy goes down, at least the police force, city goverment, public works people, cuts staff or cuts overtime / hours to try to make it work. lol, horse racing is the only industry I know that has the galls to sit there and demand more money when everyone else is tightening their belts, it's actually quite sickening. If all that stuff were really important to the horseman, they would run a 3 day meet at purses that make sense for the amount of money being wagered. They are doing nothing more than using the economic impact studies/figures to hold their hands out.

This is true, for the most part, but it misses the point. The point is the governor is threatening the close the tracks to punish a few individuals who negotiated in a way he didn't like, despite the fact that he'd be hurting tens of thousands of people, either through lost jobs, wages, or enjoyment. Forget the horsemen, and whether they're looking for handouts, which I'm not arguing: For him to consider closing the track in the face of this report is negligent, and not in the best interests of the people of NJ. Can it be better run? Of course. So find a way to run it better, or sell it. Don't close it down because you have your balls in a knot.

[Tom]

at the end of the day, economic impact aside, Monmouth has themselves to blame for not running a more economically feasible meet.

Not true.
Listen to the Byk interview with Forbes and you will see how a thoroughly corrupt governor stacks the the deck.

Where are the OTB parlors that are supposed to have been built?
Why does harness racing ( Christie $upporters) get special treatment?
Why was the good deal that Monmouth worked hard to put in place get yanked away at the very last minute by a crooked political hack?

It is hard to make headway when you are fighting bought and paid for politicians and governors who have pre-decided what outcomes will occur, as Christie did here.

[toussaud]

i would think it's in the publics best interest to not use taxpayer money to fund a gambling industry that cannot support itself.

you can't at one end of the spectrum bark at people getting on the wall street guys saying "hey buddy that's how capitalism works" then at the other end, say that funding the horse racing industry in NJ is in the best interest of the people.

Gambling on horses, while we all love it, is not a necessity, and just feel that the public should never have to use their tax money to pay for something that is not a necessity unless they vote to do so. That's just how I personally feel about the issue. If the money is going anywhere i would rather it go to places like teachers or library or something like that.

I think what really gets under my skin about the situation is that, it's not like, they are trying to spark the industry by giving more money to the breeders fund or anything, they aren't even pretending like they are going to do anything that is going to fix anything. They just want money lol. I guess I would be more sympathetic if they had a plan of action to fix the issue long term.

[The Hawk]

i would think it's in the publics best interest to not use taxpayer money to fund a gambling industry that cannot support itself.


If that's the case then why does Atlantic City get every tax break and sweetheart deal they ask for?

[toussaud]

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/nj-governor-horsemen-strike-tentative-deal-for-2012-racing-at-monmouth/


so 141 day meet, running on betting generated purses. I mean it's their money they can do with it what they want but that's too many dates, way too many IMHO.

[castaway01]

Not true.
Listen to the Byk interview with Forbes and you will see how a thoroughly corrupt governor stacks the the deck.

Where are the OTB parlors that are supposed to have been built?
Why does harness racing ( Christie $upporters) get special treatment?
Why was the good deal that Monmouth worked hard to put in place get yanked away at the very last minute by a crooked political hack?

It is hard to make headway when you are fighting bought and paid for politicians and governors who have pre-decided what outcomes will occur, as Christie did here.

100 percent correct. Christie had zero intention of allowing Monmouth to sign that original deal, even though it was a deal he asked them to find and negotiate, which they did. This whole situation has been rigged by the casinos. Whatever anyone wants to post about Monmouth being "subsidized" and losing money, it was costing a lot less in "subsidies" than the Atlantic City casinos are these days---it just didn't have as much money to pay off the right people.

[toussaud]

I'm not saying tom isn't correct, I'm saying that you never put yourself in a position to be at the mercy of the government in the first place.

[The Hawk]

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/nj-governor-horsemen-strike-tentative-deal-for-2012-racing-at-monmouth/


so 141 day meet, running on betting generated purses. I mean it's their money they can do with it what they want but that's too many dates, way too many IMHO.

Completely agree, it's going to be awful racing for the majority of the meet.

[Brogan]

Wouldn't it be interesting if a casino or casinos were 'suddenly' interested in taking over the OTWs and Monmouth was left as a stand alone piece?

[Bluto Blutarsky]

Not true.
Listen to the Byk interview with Forbes and you will see how a thoroughly corrupt governor stacks the the deck.

Where are the OTB parlors that are supposed to have been built?
Why does harness racing ( Christie $upporters) get special treatment?
Why was the good deal that Monmouth worked hard to put in place get yanked away at the very last minute by a crooked political hack?

It is hard to make headway when you are fighting bought and paid for politicians and governors who have pre-decided what outcomes will occur, as Christie did here.


I think your above post perfectly encapsulates the NJ T-bred problems.
Christie lies. A nation swoons............

[affirmedny]

I agree that it is highly unlikely he would lose the next election. He laid off policemen, firemen and teachers and the horsemen think he is going to use state funds to keep a race track open. They must have been smoking that funny smelling alfalfa.

The people of NJ are way too smart to elect this hack again. He is loved in the midwest, you guys can have him.

[alhattab]

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/nj-governor-horsemen-strike-tentative-deal-for-2012-racing-at-monmouth/


so 141 day meet, running on betting generated purses. I mean it's their money they can do with it what they want but that's too many dates, way too many IMHO.

As the DRF piece notes, 141 dates is the law. I don't know all the specifics but I believe the 141 date minimum is tied to the simulcasting, OTWs and account wagering. That is, you can't receive or send signals, run OTWs or the account wagering unless there are at least 141 T'bred dates. T'bred horsemen could have exercised its rights and that would've affected Gural and harness folks. Christie never had the legal right to shut down T'breds unless he was willing to drag Gural down with him. I don't think there was much of a choice.

It is hard to imagine that they will run 141 days. It is almost impossible to fathom. Five days a week from Derby week to Breeders Cup is only 130 dates! I think they announced "deal" so nobody had to eat crow, and they will go from here to get something more reasonable in place.

[JustRalph]

I have a question, .......... you just don't get this kind of push back from the Governor for no reason.

So, Where does this animosity come from ? Anybody know what kind of history Christie has with the tracks or owners?

I am not up on NJ politics........ can somebody fill me in?

[affirmedny]

I have a question, .......... you just don't get this kind of push back from the Governor for no reason.

So, Where does this animosity come from ? Anybody know what kind of history Christie has with the tracks or owners?

I am not up on NJ politics........ can somebody fill me in?
he's in bed with the casinos. they think slots and table games at the meadowlands are the end of atlantic city so he's doing anything he can to stop that from happening without realizing the end of AC is inevitable now that PA has table games and NY will follow shortly.

[bigmack]

Monmouth Park in New Jersey will hold a 141-day meet in 2012 while the state reopens the bidding for a long-term lease of the track under a deal that was discussed on Friday between the state’s horsemen and the office of Gov. Chris Christie, officials of the horsemen’s organization said.

The horsemen’s representatives said that the deal was substantially complete late on Friday, though final approvals of the agreement were still not in place. Christie has set a Monday deadline for the horsemen and the state to agree on a deal for the 2012 meet, threatening that he would close the track if an agreement had not been reached.

Under the deal, horsemen at Monmouth will run for “generated purses” in 2012, meaning purse distribution will be determined solely by the revenue raised from betting. As a result, overnight purses at Monmouth over 141 days this year will likely average approximately $150,000 to $175,000 a day, a sharp decline from average overnight purses this year of approximately $400,000 during a 71-day meet.
http://www.drf.com/news/monmouth-park-deal-calls-141-racing-days

[jdhanover]

We shall see if this was "right" or not. At the end of 2012, handle will be lower (given the lower quality of racing). So the impact (tax and takeout revenue) will need to be compared to the so-called subsidy.

Actually that economic impact study would need to be re-run, but the above will give us some sense.

Their biggest issue may be smaller fields and filling races....

[alhattab]

he's in bed with the casinos. they think slots and table games at the meadowlands are the end of atlantic city so he's doing anything he can to stop that from happening without realizing the end of AC is inevitable now that PA has table games and NY will follow shortly.

This is true. I think there is more to the story also but am not exactly sure what. The story to me on this go round was the horsemen's allegation that all agreed in June on the horsemen getting a small number of Meadowlands dates, then on December 2 the state reneging on this component of the deal. It is hard to tell if this was a malicious act, or really something the state truly discovered at the 11th hour. Neither would surprise me. I believe the significance of the Meadowlands dates goes way beyond the 6 days or so of racing. I believe simulcast dollars allocated to T'breds and possibly T'breds getting a share of other forms of gambling were issues. I don't know for sure, but I think there is something shady here that possibly reflects some favortism or back-dealing with Gural who is the developer that is leasing Meadowlands. What is a little surprising is the state not trying harder w/Bailey given he also owns an AC casino.

[Robert Goren]

We recently had a tread on what happens to retired race horses. In it several people said that we need fewer race tracks so we have fewer retired race horses to deal with. My question to the people who want to keep Monmouth Park open, What is your plan to deal with the horses who race there after their racing days are over? Or do you even care?

[Robert Goren]

The people of NJ are way too smart to elect this hack again. He is loved in the midwest, you guys can have him.Somehow I don't Corzine is coming back as governor to save Monmouth Park as much as you might like that idea.

[affirmedny]

This is true. I think there is more to the story also but am not exactly sure what. The story to me on this go round was the horsemen's allegation that all agreed in June on the horsemen getting a small number of Meadowlands dates, then on December 2 the state reneging on this component of the deal. It is hard to tell if this was a malicious act, or really something the state truly discovered at the 11th hour. Neither would surprise me. I believe the significance of the Meadowlands dates goes way beyond the 6 days or so of racing. I believe simulcast dollars allocated to T'breds and possibly T'breds getting a share of other forms of gambling were issues. I don't know for sure, but I think there is something shady here that possibly reflects some favortism or back-dealing with Gural who is the developer that is leasing Meadowlands. What is a little surprising is the state not trying harder w/Bailey given he also owns an AC casino.

Gural's original financial backer was Cantor gaming, owned by Cantor/Fitzgerald where coincidentally Christie's wife works. They backed out when that information got out.

[Bluto Blutarsky]

We recently had a tread on what happens to retired race horses. In it several people said that we need fewer race tracks so we have fewer retired race horses to deal with. My question to the people who want to keep Monmouth Park open, What is your plan to deal with the horses who race there after their racing days are over? Or do you even care?

From the ReRun website...
ReRun is a nationally recognized 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization founded in 1996. Our mission is to rehabilitate, retrain, and find adoptive homes for Thoroughbred racehorses when their careers on the track are over. ReRun takes in horses from off the racetracks throughout the Mid-Atlantic and East Coast regions, and serves as the on-site aftercare program for Monmouth Park Racetrack in New Jersey.

The NJ Horsemen Association and the NJ Breeders Association both contribute monies and sponsor fundraising events, in concert with ReRun.
Hey Goren, what is the plan to deal with horses at Fonner Park and Remington Park? Do you even care??

[alhattab]

Gural's original financial backer was Cantor gaming, owned by Cantor/Fitzgerald where coincidentally Christie's wife works. They backed out when that information got out.

Thank you. I knew there was something else but didn't recall exactly what it was. Backed out my behind I'm sure they're lurking somewhere (not questioning your point just questioning they're intent). I don't believe in coincidence.

[alhattab]

Gural's original financial backer was Cantor gaming, owned by Cantor/Fitzgerald where coincidentally Christie's wife works. They backed out when that information got out.

I sent this email to Bob Jordan of the Asbury Park Press who has been reporting on this topic

Bob- Why does it seem that nobody is calling out Christie on what could possibly be some unethical dealings regarding the Monmouth Park lease? I have never heard him deny that the state initially agreed to award the thoroughbred horsemen the Meadowlands dates. It seems reneging on this aspect of the agreement caused the deal to collapse. There's more to the Meadowlands dates than just racing dates. There is a tie in with simulcast revenues and potentially other gaming revenues if gaming expanded to Meadowlands. I was reminded that there is a tie in between Jeff Gural and Cantor Gaming, and Christie's wife I believe is with Cantor Fitzgerald. Someone like you should look into this as I'm sure you, like me, don't believe in coincidences.



Thanks for your continued reporting on this topic

[Tom]

I have a question, .......... you just don't get this kind of push back from the Governor for no reason.

So, Where does this animosity come from ? Anybody know what kind of history Christie has with the tracks or owners?

I am not up on NJ politics........ can somebody fill me in?

Christi dances to the tune played by those have bought him off. He knows where the $$$ comes from, and it those he represents, not the people of NJ.
Notice Harness and breeder sides get to have a lobbyist, parts of the deal favoring harness go ahead, but not T Bred.

Christi is nothing more than a bought and paid for flunky on a leash. T Breds must not be sending it in enough to get fair treatment.

[Robert Goren]

From the ReRun website...
ReRun is a nationally recognized 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization founded in 1996. Our mission is to rehabilitate, retrain, and find adoptive homes for Thoroughbred racehorses when their careers on the track are over. ReRun takes in horses from off the racetracks throughout the Mid-Atlantic and East Coast regions, and serves as the on-site aftercare program for Monmouth Park Racetrack in New Jersey.

The NJ Horsemen Association and the NJ Breeders Association both contribute monies and sponsor fundraising events, in concert with ReRun.
Hey Goren, what is the plan to deal with horses at Fonner Park and Remington Park? Do you even care??As far as I know there is none for Fonner Park. Its days are numbered anyway. The Nebraska curcuit is on it last legs. It appears that 2012 will be the last season for Lincoln. Nobody I know thinks it can continue with just 2 race track that race for more than one weekend. Nebraska racing is run by non profits and has long ago stopped being a source for revenue to help their causes. Two attempts to put slots at race tracks have been turned down by wide margins by the voters. I believe the last one was something like 2 to 1. In the grand scheme of things horse racing will probably be better off without the Nebraska curcuit running $4000 claimers. I have no knowledge of what goes on at Remington Park since it is in Oklahoma about an 8 hour drive away.
Good for the NJ horsemen. How much do they contribute a year? Is it a token amount? or do they contribute anything close to amount need to keep all of the retired NJ race horses going? A horse is not a cheap thing to keep.

[castaway01]

I'm not saying tom isn't correct, I'm saying that you never put yourself in a position to be at the mercy of the government in the first place.

In this case, considering the government owns the ground and runs the meeting, that was sort of impossible, wasn't it? Whatever flaws the horsemen have as a group, they met all the requirements the governor laid out and then the bar was raised.

Look, for all the nonsense posted in this thread by some, the fact is, the casinos run things. Doesn't matter who the governor is or what party. Right now, the casinos are down 25% from a few years ago and are taking a beating, despite all the tax breaks, roads built right to their doors, etc. So, the current goal of the casinos is to shut down the racetracks so they can build their own casinos on that property to try to recover some of their massive losses to the PA casinos. Christie is on board with this plan. That's what is happening, but for political and legal reasons the governor and his lackeys pretend otherwise.

[affirmedny]

I sent this email to Bob Jordan of the Asbury Park Press who has been reporting on this topic

Bob- Why does it seem that nobody is calling out Christie on what could possibly be some unethical dealings regarding the Monmouth Park lease? I have never heard him deny that the state initially agreed to award the thoroughbred horsemen the Meadowlands dates. It seems reneging on this aspect of the agreement caused the deal to collapse. There's more to the Meadowlands dates than just racing dates. There is a tie in with simulcast revenues and potentially other gaming revenues if gaming expanded to Meadowlands. I was reminded that there is a tie in between Jeff Gural and Cantor Gaming, and Christie's wife I believe is with Cantor Fitzgerald. Someone like you should look into this as I'm sure you, like me, don't believe in coincidences.




Thanks for your continued reporting on this topic


Good, let's see if he writes about it, I have never seen in it a story by the "legitimate" press, only on blogs. But it's definitely true.

[rwryley]

I agree that subsidies should be eliminated. But, the only way to do it is to let the tracks - whether they are run by the state or private companies - have slots and other gambling. New Jersey should at least put its tracks in a position to compete with states that are self-subsidizing racing purses with other gambling revenue.

[Robert Goren]

The casino stuff is a red herring. The horsemen want a long meet with a subsidy. The governor doesn't want to give them a subsidy. That's pretty much it. Everything else is bull crap.

[Robert Goren]

I agree that subsidies should be eliminated. But, the only way to do it is to let the tracks - whether they are run by the state or private companies - have slots and other gambling. New Jersey should at least put its tracks in a position to compete with states that are self-subsidizing racing purses with other gambling revenue. Why? The only thing the racinos are competing for is cheap horses by having higher purses. If MP offers higher purses, all they are doing is getting a few horses that would have run in PRX. MP's gain is PRX's loss. How is that helping the sport?

[NJ Stinks]

i would think it's in the publics best interest to not use taxpayer money to fund a gambling industry that cannot support itself.

you can't at one end of the spectrum bark at people getting on the wall street guys saying "hey buddy that's how capitalism works" then at the other end, say that funding the horse racing industry in NJ is in the best interest of the people.

.

It is in the public's best interest in NJ. I'll explain why. NJ residents have paid a bundle over the last 50+ years to preserve open land. Open Space ballot referendums pass like clockwork here because we are so densely populated. Check out this article I found from 2009:
______________________________

With no public and little political opposition, the Senate Environment Committee Thursday voted 4-1 in favor of legislation that would ask voters to approve a $600 million bond referendum on the Nov. 3 general election ballot for open space, farmland and historic preservation.
The referendum, which proposes the second largest bond issue in state history, was increased from the initially proposed amount of $300 million.
The measure, S-1858, and three other bills that allocate up to $66 million from the Garden State Preservation Trust for land and historic preservation were approved without public opposition within five minutes of the committee meetings opening gavel.

The Republican legislators on the panel, Sen. Christopher "Kip'' Bateman (R-Somerset) and Sen. Andrew Ciesla (R-Ocean), called for reducing the referendum amount to $300 million but were voted down 3-2. They then joined in unanimously approving the $600 million figure.

link: http://www.newjerseynewsroom.com/state/ballot-question-asking-600-million-for-open-space-moves-forward
______________________________________


Apparently, the amount was reduced to $400M before it went on the ballot. Probably because in 2009 the recession was really bad. Did the people of NJ pass it? Yes we did.

_______________________________________

Nov. 3, 2009, TRENTON, NJ -- Yesterday New Jersey voted Yes to continue investing in preserving our land, water and history for the benefit of citizens today, and for future generations. The majority of voters, 52% to 48%, voted to continue funding to the state's highly successful preservation programs. Funding for the Green Acres Program, the Farmland Preservation Program, and the NJ Historic Trust will now continue for the next two years, giving New Jersey time to identify a long-term funding source for these programs.

In the meantime, the $400 million in approved funding will....

Link: http://www.njkeepitgreen.org/documents/KIG_SUCCESS_RELEASE_11-3-09.pdf
_________________________________


Here's the way it is in our small and densely populated state, Toussaud. Down the line we can pay hundreds of millions of dollars in taxes every few years to try to buy some of the land that horse farms occupy so beautifully today because of the horseracing industry in this state or we can just save a ton of money and a bundle of open space by subsidizing the NJ horseracing industry.

It's a no-brainer if you care about quality of life, saving taxpayers a fortune, and/or the NJ horseracing industry.

[NJ Stinks]

Let's get up-to-date with our illustrious governor. Here's an article from last August where Christie signs a bill and tells us how committed he is to open space in NJ. Read this and tell me Christie is thinking clearly when he says the taxpayers of NJ cannot afford nor should they subsidize the thoroughbred industry here in any way, shape, or form.
_________________________________

Governor Christie Builds on Commitment to Protect New Jersey’s Environment, Signs Legislation to Protect Open Space and Recreational Development in the Garden State


Wednesday, August 3, 2011
$157 Million Made Available for Green Acres Projects Including Highlands, Barnegat Bay and Urban Waterfronts


Trenton, NJ – Further demonstrating his commitment to the environment and an improved quality of life for Garden State residents, Governor Chris Christie today signed a series of bills that protects Green Acres open-space acquisition and recreational development throughout the state. The legislation also makes available $157 million for projects in all of New Jersey’s 21 counties including preservation projects in the Highlands, the Barnegat Bay watershed, and urban waterfronts.
“I am pleased to sign legislation today that reaffirms my Administration’s commitment to protecting New Jersey's open spaces and natural resources,” said Governor Chris Christie. “These bills continue the Garden State’s proud tradition as a nationally recognized leader in land conservation efforts and will further assist Commissioner Martin and the DEP to fund a wide variety of worthy projects critical to sustaining a high quality of life in the nation's most densely populated state."

link: http://www.state.nj.us/governor/news/news/552011/approved/20110803.html

[Tom]

The casino stuff is a red herring. The horsemen want a long meet with a subsidy. The governor doesn't want to give them a subsidy. That's pretty much it. Everything else is bull crap.

Then why is he continually lying about the whole thing? His word is worthless. The man is a bought and paid for liar. Thousands of jobs, at the minimum are at stake.

[Robert Goren]

Then why is he continually lying about the whole thing? His word is worthless. The man is a bought and paid for liar. Thousands of jobs, at the minimum are at stake.So you support using tax money to keep a race track open? That is what we are talking here. Whether Christi is lying or not is beside the point. In order for MP to be open next year, the taxpayers in NJ are going to have pony up. It really is that simple.

[Robert Goren]

There are not 1,000s of job at stake here. The horse care related jobs will just move to another race track. There a few race track jobs like cashiers and waitress job that will be lost. Maybe few hundred at most and many are part time with limited benefits. Taxpayer money can be better spent to produce better jobs than those.

[Tom]

No, Bobby, there are thousands of other jobs that support racing. Vets, medicines, transportation, feed.......but bottom line is all the jobs will leave the state of disappear. Christi repeatedly has lied about the economic impact racing has on the state.

[FenceBored]

No, Bobby, there are thousands of other jobs that support racing. Vets, medicines, transportation, feed.......but bottom line is all the jobs will leave the state of disappear. Christi repeatedly has lied about the economic impact racing has on the state.

Every 'economic impact' statement I've ever seen has exaggerated things to puff up the folks who commissioned it. Heck, that's what they're paying for.

[onefast99]

So you support using tax money to keep a race track open? That is what we are talking here. Whether Christi is lying or not is beside the point. In order for MP to be open next year, the taxpayers in NJ are going to have pony up. It really is that simple.
Wrong again! The actual debate is why is Atlantic City getting huge tax concessions while the horse racing industry is being put on DNR? The fact that a racino is needed to support the purse structures in NJ to make it competitive with the surrounding states especially NY and Pa is what is at stake here. The "don't put slots at the racetracks" casino pay out is over and now it is time to implement a fair sytem by which the casinos and racetracks can work together and serve the entire state not just Atlantic City which has become obselete. One of the most desirous pieces of real estate in this country sits at the Meadowlands, due to corruption and greed it has remained under developed to protect the AC casinos and in turn has now hurt them as much as the racing industry. The solution is to amend the gaming laws as they are now as equally as obselete as AC to include casino expansion to northern NJ. Here is a brief portion of an article that came out last year.
Two reports by Christiansen Capital Advisors, commissioned by the New Jersey Department of Treasury, recommended the installation of slot machines at the Meadowlands. The reports stated that 5,000 machines at the Meadowlands would produce $750 million annually and that 10,000 machines would produce $1.5 billion annually. The same study suggested that 2,100 slots at the Meadowlands would reduce Atlantic City gross gaming revenue by a mere .01 percent.



Senator Sean Kean recently said on the New Jersey Senate floor "if it (a Racino at the Meadowlands) were put to a vote we'd probably get a majority, if not a super-majority (in support), to save horse racing in the state of New Jersey." Despite the overwhelming financial benefits flowing from such an arrangement, the Hanson Report summarily dismisses the installation of Video Lottery Terminals, slot machines or a gaming casino in the Meadowlands.

[David-LV]

Wrong again! The actual debate is why is Atlantic City getting huge tax concessions while the horse racing industry is being put on DNR? The fact that a racino is needed to support the purse structures in NJ to make it competitive with the surrounding states especially NY and Pa is what is at stake here. The "don't put slots at the racetracks" casino pay out is over and now it is time to implement a fair sytem by which the casinos and racetracks can work together and serve the entire state not just Atlantic City which has become obselete. One of the most desirous pieces of real estate in this country sits at the Meadowlands, due to corruption and greed it has remained under developed to protect the AC casinos and in turn has now hurt them as much as the racing industry. The solution is to amend the gaming laws as they are now as equally as obselete as AC to include casino expansion to northern NJ. Here is a brief portion of an article that came out last year.
Two reports by Christiansen Capital Advisors, commissioned by the New Jersey Department of Treasury, recommended the installation of slot machines at the Meadowlands. The reports stated that 5,000 machines at the Meadowlands would produce $750 million annually and that 10,000 machines would produce $1.5 billion annually. The same study suggested that 2,100 slots at the Meadowlands would reduce Atlantic City gross gaming revenue by a mere .01 percent.



Senator Sean Kean recently said on the New Jersey Senate floor "if it (a Racino at the Meadowlands) were put to a vote we'd probably get a majority, if not a super-majority (in support), to save horse racing in the state of New Jersey." Despite the overwhelming financial benefits flowing from such an arrangement, the Hanson Report summarily dismisses the installation of Video Lottery Terminals, slot machines or a gaming casino in the Meadowlands.

We can sum up this sad situation with just two words "political corruption".

________
David-LV

[Robert Goren]

Competative for what? Since when has Parx or Penn National ever competed with anybody for the horse race bettor's buck?:bang:

[alhattab]

Competative for what? Since when has Parx or Penn National ever competed with anybody for the horse race bettor's buck?:bang:

C'mon Robert. I hate the slots funding purses silliness as much as you do, but you can't be serious with this comment. You know that at some point Monmouth's situation becomes unsustainable simply because its product is not competitive due to bad horses and not enough of them. Look at Maryland, which is on a respirator. The betting dollars may not flow to Parx, Penn or Delaware, but they will flow away from Monmouth as much as they flowed into Monmouth two years ago, when overall handle increased significantly despite a 30% reduction in dates.

[Robert Goren]

If very few people bet on the races, what is the point in running them? As for the 2010 meet, it lost money. The taxpayers still had to dig up money above and beyond the money MP got from the casinos.

[onefast99]

Competative for what? Since when has Parx or Penn National ever competed with anybody for the horse race bettor's buck?:bang:
Competitive on both fronts, casino and racing. If you were an owner you would want to go where the purse monies are good. The bettors go wherever they feel comfortable. Parx offers some very good purse monies and as we all know NYRA is stepping up its game. NJ cannot compete if the horseman get the 141 days as the purse allocation per day would be less than $150k, or just slighly above Mountaineer and Fingerlakes.

[onefast99]

If very few people bet on the races, what is the point in running them? As for the 2010 meet, it lost money. The taxpayers still had to dig up money above and beyond the money MP got from the casinos.
The Woodbridge NJ OTW facility is part of that equation, but for some reason I think you forgot that! Also the NJSEA took a lot of time transferring the track over to Morris Bailey and with the Governor playing two ends against the middle Bailey walked.

[Robert Goren]

Competitive on both fronts, casino and racing. If you were an owner you would want to go where the purse monies are good. The bettors go wherever they feel comfortable. Parx offers some very good purse monies and as we all know NYRA is stepping up its game. NJ cannot compete if the horseman get the 141 days as the purse allocation per day would be less than $150k, or just slighly above Mountaineer and Fingerlakes. I am not a horse owner. I am horse race bettor. I have not seen very much competation for my money from racinos. That what I want to see. I do not see the point of having another Parx from a bettors stand point. As for NY, they have not stepped up their game to attract bettors either. So far all we have seen is the same horses running for more money. They haven't even made a promise to look at the takeout at a future date. To me it doesn't matter if the race is held in NJ, NY,PA or Timbuckto. I just want a decent betting race with a takeout low enough that I have chance to make a little money. Those races today are few and far between and it seems since the advent of racinos they have gotten even scarcer.

[NJ Stinks]

So you support using tax money to keep a race track open? That is what we are talking here. Whether Christi is lying or not is beside the point. In order for MP to be open next year, the taxpayers in NJ are going to have pony up. It really is that simple.

Robert, either what I posted last night is relevant or it's not. Please respond to the following if you get a chance:

Since 2009 the taxpayers in NJ have spent $553M that I know of (and posted links to above) in order to preserve land for open space. Why is it not prudent to subsidize horseracing here in some significant fashion in order to keep some of the little open space we have left in NJ? It's not like these horse farms are going to be replaced by farms that grow produce or raise other livestock. Those kind of farms are almost extinct here because the farmers' kids eventually choose to sell out to developers if the farmer doesn't decide to do so himself. Not that I blame them. The amount of money offered by developers for the farm land is almost irresistible vs. working unbelievably hard for very little in the form of revenue.

Robert? Anybody? Why is it not prudent or fair to take some of that $553M and support (subsidize) horseracing here in some significant fashion with taxpayer money in order to keep some of the little open space we have left in NJ? :confused:

[daresoar]

My name is Glenn Thompson and I train horses at Monmouth Park. I wrote a letter to Gov. Christie that was published in the Patch Newspaper. A friend is going to post it for you to see. It does smell very funny that Christie wont have the slots at the Medowlands and if they were allowed the tracks would need no tax dollars or bail outs like Christie is doing for AC right now. The state has been running the tracks for years and with their poor management the tracks have lost money. They run it and keep incompetent people at the helm and then blame us for losing money.

[Luke22]

My name is Glenn Thompson and I train horses at Monmouth Park. I wrote a letter to Gov. Christie that was published in the Patch Newspaper. A friend is going to post it for you to see. It does smell very funny that Christie wont have the slots at the Medowlands and if they were allowed the tracks would need no tax dollars or bail outs like Christie is doing for AC right now. The state has been running the tracks for years and with their poor management the tracks have lost money. They run it and keep incompetent people at the helm and then blame us for losing money.

Dear Governor Christie,

I am going to try and clear a few things up for you. Your decision not to put slots in at the Meadowlands and compete with New York is the main problem with all of horse racing, trotters and thoroughbred alike. If you used common sense and were not worried about what Atlantic City could do for you, you would allow the slots at the Meadowlands and be bringing in millions of dollars in taxes to help with what is needed.

Please spare us with that cheap line you used about millionaire horsemen taking money away from waiters, waitresses, police and teachers. You should fire whoever wrote that for you, you are better than that.

The way it looks from the outside is that Atlantic City is either lining your pockets or you have a plan to take over the Meadowlands, have the slots and exclude the horsemen. So which is it?

The state has been running Monmouth Park (http://littlesilver.patch.com/listings/monmouth-park-2) and the Meadowlands for years and if it has been losing money, I would say that it has been poorly managed. You keep paying top dollar salaries to people that I wouldn't let walk one of my horses. They have kept the same group of people at the helm that have no new ideas and no vision and then wonder why the tracks are losing money.

Everyone in America except for you knows that Atlantic City is in deep trouble and... you invest a couple hundred million of taxpayer money in a casino (http://www.trentonian.com/articles/2011/02/03/opinion/doc4d4b7ffc5163d539451871.txt)? The casinos in Atlantic City are even investing in other casinos in nearby states. They see the writing on the wall why don't you?

I played golf with one of your top advisers Dave Samson down here in Aiken S.C. He is a very good man and I see why you chose him to head your transition team and the Sports Authority (http://www.njsea.com/). I am not going to repeat what was said on number seven at Palmetto Golf Course but I would like you to ask him what he thinks of your big " Tourism Idea" at Atlantic City. Keep in mind that you hired him as an advisor and he is very good at it and then listen to him.

In this particular instance, I think he is much wiser than you. He has no chips at the table and can make a much clearer decision than you who apparently have quite a few chips at the table. Dave is an honorable man and he will give you sound advice if you simply ask him for it.

Sorry if this letter comes across as a little angry but the people are simply tired of all the BS that goes on with the politics.

The best thing for New Jersey, the racetracks and for you would be for the state to keep the tracks, open up a casino at the Meadowlands and have the business thrive like it is in New York right now (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/bettors_tampede_to_new_queens_racino_o66KAZB0u4QJ1 dpMy4ciTI). The horsemen wouldn't even mind if the casinos in Atlantic City were invested and part of the project.

If there is a valid reason that you don't want to put slots at the Meadowlands then simply let us know and we will accept it. The reasons you are giving now (http://littlesilver.patch.com/articles/christie-threatens-end-of-racing-at-monmouth-park) are a bunch of smoke and mirrors and the citizens of New Jersey deserve the truth. I truly believe this is a critical move for you and I hope you make the right one.

Dave told me you were a great guy and had a good sense of humor. I have watched you on the news and in interviews and have a great deal of respect for you and think you could be a great leader. The only hole I see in your political agenda, outside of those little snaps you have every now and then, is this Atlantic City thing.

A man of character and a leader does not fold on his values and principles for any reason and I feel like this is, in a way, judgement day for you. A strong man is never afraid to admit his mistakes and change his path and Governor Christie I am hoping you are a strong man.

If you continue down the road you are taking, you fall right in line with a long list of men and women who had very weak principles, no character and undeserving of being in office. For our country and for you I hope you make the right call.

We might need you to run this country one day but that offer is only good for a man with a True and Strong Character, a man of Honor.

Good Luck and All the Best, Glenn Thompson (http://horse-racing.ie/cheating-in-the-sport-of-kings-by-glenn-thompson/)

[castaway01]

If very few people bet on the races, what is the point in running them? As for the 2010 meet, it lost money. The taxpayers still had to dig up money above and beyond the money MP got from the casinos.

Your mistakes, which you make over and over in thousands of posts about Monmouth, are that:

1) You take the state bookkeepers at their word about what Monmouth allegedly lost
2) You think the taxpayers are somehow burdened by Monmouth's losses when they are 0.00001 percent of the state budget and are a lot less than casino subsidies. I proved this to you long ago, and you basically said, "Yeah yeah" and went back to posting the same lies.
3) You refuse to understand the realities of politics in this and many other states---the golden rule is that he who has the gold makes the rules. The casinos set the terms, so they're allowed huge tax breaks and hundreds of millions of dollars of state funds being spent to build roads to their door. And you're fine with that, yet very concerned that Monmouth is somehow bankrupting the state of New Jersey.

In your hundreds and hundreds of nonsensical posts about my state and the issues here, I haven't heard you ever address any of these issues. I'm just sorry that people with as little of a clue and as heavy of a bias are you have are allowed to spout off at the mouth, and that anyone else might read your garbage and believe it. I do thank guys like onefast, Tom and others in this thread for at least trying to make the truth known.

[castaway01]

Robert, either what I posted last night is relevant or it's not. Please respond to the following if you get a chance:

Since 2009 the taxpayers in NJ have spent $553M that I know of (and posted links to above) in order to preserve land for open space. Why is it not prudent to subsidize horseracing here in some significant fashion in order to keep some of the little open space we have left in NJ? It's not like these horse farms are going to be replaced by farms that grow produce or raise other livestock. Those kind of farms are almost extinct here because the farmers' kids eventually choose to sell out to developers if the farmer doesn't decide to do so himself. Not that I blame them. The amount of money offered by developers for the farm land is almost irresistible vs. working unbelievably hard for very little in the form of revenue.

Robert? Anybody? Why is it not prudent or fair to take some of that $553M and support (subsidize) horseracing here in some significant fashion with taxpayer money in order to keep some of the little open space we have left in NJ? :confused:

He doesn't care...he's very, very concerned that Monmouth may or may not have lost $7 million last year, yet $553 million spent on open space and hundreds of millions in tax breaks and construction costs for casino development mean nothing to him. Yet he'll ignore your message and post the same garbage another 100 times, because that is what he does. Sorry if that's a personal attack, yet I've never seen someone like Robert take it as their personal mission to post hundreds of times and try to destroy a racetrack. By the way, Robert, Christie has got that taken care of for you big fella...he'll have Monmouth destroyed before his second term, so the casino boys can develop there. No need for you to jump on him and ride.

[Robert Goren]

I never ceased to amazed. Now keeping MP running is an open space argument.
As for the OTB making money. Why should MP get any more of their money than any other race track they take bets on? OTBs should be separate from race tracks.

[daresoar]

I never ceased to amazed. Now keeping MP running is an open space argument.
As for the OTB making money. Why should MP get any more of their money than any other race track they take bets on? OTBs should be separate from race tracks. Hey Robert, Does Christie and Atlantic City have you on their payroll??

[daresoar]

Hey Robert, Does Christie and Atlantic City have you on their payroll?? He's calling Christie now to let him know we are on to them!

[David-LV]

I never ceased to amazed. Now keeping MP running is an open space argument.
As for the OTB making money. Why should MP get any more of their money than any other race track they take bets on? OTBs should be separate from race tracks.

You are the most negative, anti horse player that I have ever encountered in my 55 years in the sport. Terrible.

________
David-LV

[Robert Goren]

I am positive that race tracks could make money like they did when I first started betting if they rolled back the takeout rates back to the level back then. It is the horsemen who are so negative about horse racing is that they believe the only way it can survive is by taking money from other gambling enterprises or from taxpayers. Cut the takeout rates to 12% across the board and watch the money roll in. There would be no need for racinos or taxpayer subsidies.

[daresoar]

Robert, what is your problem with slots at the Meadowlands?

[onefast99]

I am positive that race tracks could make money like they did when I first started betting if they rolled back the takeout rates back to the level back then. It is the horsemen who are so negative about horse racing is that they believe the only way it can survive is by taking money from other gambling enterprises or from taxpayers. Cut the takeout rates to 12% across the board and watch the money roll in. There would be no need for racinos or taxpayer subsidies.
Wrong, wrong and yep wrong again. NJ is set up where the state is running the horse racing industry and dictating to the horseman the number of racing days that should be run in essence the state is saying that even though the racing commission approved 141 days for the years 2008-2014 the state will tell the horseman how many they can run at last count it was 85 with an additional Meadowlands at MP meet which gave an extra 6 days of brutal racing. The taxpayers portion of the purse monies was peanuts, due to the fact that favorites in Woodbridge the top OTW in the nation had profits that offset a majority of MP's loses. There have been several groups who are proponents of a casino at the Meadowlands asking the NJSEA for the final accounting but it has not been given out, did you ever wonder why?

[cj]

Robert, what is your problem with slots at the Meadowlands?

Slots are a bandaid that won't last forever. They also keep the sport from addressing the real problems it has.

[onefast99]

Slots are a bandaid that won't last forever. They also keep the sport from addressing the real problems it has.
If it is done right the two can co-exist and be profitable.

[Robert Goren]

If it is done right the two can co-exist and be profitable.The Casino will be profitable. There is not yet a racino where the race track side is profitable on its own.

[lamboguy]

The Casino will be profitable. There is not yet a racino where the race track side is profitable on its own.
gulfstream park is pretty profitable without the casino i am told. woodbine does well too, not sure if they are actually profitable though.

[cj]

If it is done right the two can co-exist and be profitable.

Sure, but they should be profitable on their own. Right now, horse racing is sponging off of casinos and they are doing nothing to be able to stand alone in most jurisdictions.

[Robert Goren]

gulfstream park is pretty profitable without the casino i am told. woodbine does well too, not sure if they are actually profitable though. I want to see the numbers.

[lamboguy]

I want to see the numbers.what i have learned on this board in the last 5 years is that it is a lot less expensive to argue than to bet your money on these races. i chose to bet my money.

happy holiday's

[FenceBored]

I never ceased to amazed. Now keeping MP running is an open space argument.

Well, the old National Defense argument can't be used any more.
George M. Rommell, chief of the division of animal husbandry of the Department of Agriculture, in an interview given to The New York Herald, calls attention to the direct and important relation of horse racing to the national defense.
-- http://kdl.kyvl.org/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=drf1910s;cc=drf1910s;rgn=full%20text;idno=dr f1912010301;didno=drf1912010301;view=pdf;seq=1_2;n ode=drf1912010301%3A1.2 (http://kdl.kyvl.org/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=drf1910s;cc=drf1910s;rgn=full%20text;idno=dr f1912010301;didno=drf1912010301;view=pdf;seq=1_2;n ode=drf1912010301%3A1.2)

[thaskalos]

If it is done right the two can co-exist and be profitable.

Wasn't it trainer Jeff Mullins who stated that horsemen can't wait for the day when horse racing will be TOTALLY dependent on slots...so they will no longer have to deal with horseplayers and their constant complaining?

Where is the proof that the horsemen care about anything else but their purses?

With slot money rolling in...do you really think that the industry will EVER look to cure the ills that plague this "sport"?

I see the day when the mutuel pools will be reduced to "peanuts" -- as more and more horseplayers are converted into slot players -- and the only ones to notice will be the few remaining "hardcore" racing fans...because everyone else will be too busy counting their casino gains.

[Vinman]

Wasn't it trainer Jeff Mullins who stated that horsemen can't wait for the day when horse racing will be TOTALLY dependent on slots...so they will no longer have to deal with horseplayers and their constant complaining?

Where is the proof that the horsemen care about anything else but their purses?

With slot money rolling in...do you really think that the industry will EVER look to cure the ills that plague this "sport"?

I see the day when the mutuel pools will be reduced to "peanuts" -- as more and more horseplayers are converted into slot players -- and the only ones to notice will be the few remaining "hardcore" racing fans...because everyone else will be too busy counting their casino gains.

The "peanut sized" mutuel pools are indeed alive and well at Presque Isle Downs, a track that came into existence, as it turns out, IMHO, soley to reduce field sizes of neighboring tracks while lining owners/trainers pockets with far more purse $$$ than the talent of their horses warrant.

Thankfully, people are still capable of "sending it in", as yesterday's $183,593 Pick 5 carryover at HOL lured and additional $1,226,324 for a total of $1,409,917 for the closing day card. I "might add" that I hit it for $1,948.25 on a wager of $540, which of course would have been reduced to "swiss cheese" had Baffert's $390,000 maiden won at 2/5....or the other 3/5 shot in the 4th race. But as we all know, THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is why they call it "gambling" : )

[lamboguy]

The "peanut sized" mutuel pools are indeed alive and well at Presque Isle Downs, a track that came into existence, as it turns out, IMHO, soley to reduce field sizes of neighboring tracks while lining owners/trainers pockets with far more purse $$$ than the talent of their horses warrant.

Thankfully, people are still capable of "sending it in", as yesterday's $183,593 Pick 5 carryover at HOL lured and additional $1,226,324 for a total of $1,409,917 for the closing day card. I "might add" that I hit it for $1,948.25 on a wager of $540, which of course would have been reduced to "swiss cheese" had Baffert's $390,000 maiden won at 2/5....or the other 3/5 shot in the 4th race. But as we all know, THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is why they call it "gambling" : )nice hit there vinman!

i will see you at favorites on saturday, i am staying at the fairfield inn for the weekend

[Vinman]

nice hit there vinman!

i will see you at favorites on saturday, i am staying at the fairfield inn for the weekend

Thanks. I'm easy to spot in Favorites....I'm the guy who walks in with a computer bag in each hand...lol. Ed, the evening mgr with the colorful shirts, will point you in my direction. If you see adjoining carrells with HP laptops, that would be me : )

Vinman

[Robert Goren]

The "peanut sized" mutuel pools are indeed alive and well at Presque Isle Downs, a track that came into existence, as it turns out, IMHO, soley to reduce field sizes of neighboring tracks while lining owners/trainers pockets with far more purse $$$ than the talent of their horses warrant.

Thankfully, people are still capable of "sending it in", as yesterday's $183,593 Pick 5 carryover at HOL lured and additional $1,226,324 for a total of $1,409,917 for the closing day card. I "might add" that I hit it for $1,948.25 on a wager of $540, which of course would have been reduced to "swiss cheese" had Baffert's $390,000 maiden won at 2/5....or the other 3/5 shot in the 4th race. But as we all know, THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is why they call it "gambling" : )Presque came into existence for one reason only and it had nothing with to do reducing the size of fields of neighboring tracks. They need to open a racetrack in order to open a casino. Like all racinos they would drop the racing in second if they could without having to close the casino. Anyone who pretends otherwise is only kidding themselves.

[thaskalos]

The "peanut sized" mutuel pools are indeed alive and well at Presque Isle Downs, a track that came into existence, as it turns out, IMHO, soley to reduce field sizes of neighboring tracks while lining owners/trainers pockets with far more purse $$$ than the talent of their horses warrant.


That's another example of the conflicting interests which separate horsemen and horseplayers.

The horsemen want the most tracks, the most racing dates, and the smallest fields possible...because it's financially beneficial to THEM.

Instead of the industry realizing that the short fields (made even shorter by the obligatory 'late scratches') are killing this game...we get even more new tracks with tiny pools, where the player can't make a decent bet without putting the tote board on tilt...and where 90% of the betting is done as the horses are entering the starting gate.

The game today is being run with only the horsemen in mind...and then the industry wonders why they need casino gambling in order to survive.

The small betting pools, coupled with the high takeouts and the widespread illegal use of drugs, are driving the serious bettors AWAY from this game.

And the small bettors can't pick up the slack...no matter how many 50-cent trifectas and 10-cent supers get introduced.

No business can afford to alienate its best customers.

[Brogan]

Today's news is that Monmouth is back for 2012:

http://blogs.app.com/capitolquickies/2011/12/19/monmouth-park-deal-complete-beating-gov-christies-deadline-track-to-remain-open-in-2012/

Though at this point, no Haskell.

Stay tuned...things change every few days.

[cj]

There is ZERO chance they can run that many days.

[thespaah]

Monmouth Park's future has been thrust into question as a deal to privatize the state-owned Oceanport racetrack has fallen through (http://www.app.com/article/20111207/NJNEWS1002/312070015/Rift-derails-talks-Monmouth-Park-deal), the Asbury Park Press reported

The Christie administration broke off talks, according to the Press, due to a dispute with the New Jersey Thoroughbred Horsemen’s Association over the number of days the track will hold racing

The stalemate between the association and the governor's administration has cost prospective manager of the track, real estate developer Morris Bailey, a chance to complete the deal

At this point the only thing I can say for Mr. Bailey is we’re extremely disappointed. We don’t know what’s next,” Bailey's attorney, Ronald J. Riccio told the paper
http://www.northjersey.com/news/Private_operator_signs_30-year_deal_for_Meadowlands_track.html?c=y&page=1

This article states it was Bailey who walked away from the negotiations.
"The dual announcements came after weeks of acrimonious exchanges between thoroughbred horsemen and the Governor’s Office, leading Morris Bailey, co-owner of Resorts Atlantic City casino, to abandon plans to take over Monmouth Park. "
Apparently all three parties, The State government, thoroughbred horsemen( not a shock there) and Morris Bailey could not reach a consensus.
I predict the tragic loss of another great racing facility.

[thespaah]

some rep in jersey introduced a bill to stick slot machines in the race tracks.

the only way that would go through is if christy becomes the next president. in my opinion, that guy don't want racetracks in new jersey
No..The residents of the State of New Jersey should not be in the racetrack ownership business. Especially in light of the $20 million annual net losses.

[thespaah]

''I don't' think it has anything to o with him not wanting tracks in NJ, I think h e just doesn't want to have to subsidize the industry. ''

close all museums, state parks, libraries too while your @ it

also add more employees to take care of thousands who work and contribute to the economy in the horse industry
You really want to go with THAT?
The all or nothing straw man argument?

[thespaah]

I agree that it is highly unlikely he would lose the next election. He laid off policemen, firemen and teachers and the horsemen think he is going to use state funds to keep a race track open. They must have been smoking that funny smelling alfalfa.
The office of Governor does not have the power or authority to lay off county or municipal employees.
The State of NJ is riddled with ridiculously high taxes. Mostly due to very high wages for public workers and of course public school taxes.
The people of NJ have had enough. The government leadership is looking to reduce or at least stop the stratospheric rise in taxes.
There is no more money than can be grabbed.
In fact. money is flowing out of NJ like it's going over Niagara Falls.
Over the last 10 years and estimated $70 billion in wealth has left NJ.

[thespaah]

Not true.
Listen to the Byk interview with Forbes and you will see how a thoroughly corrupt governor stacks the the deck.

Where are the OTB parlors that are supposed to have been built?
Why does harness racing ( Christie $upporters) get special treatment?
Why was the good deal that Monmouth worked hard to put in place get yanked away at the very last minute by a crooked political hack?

It is hard to make headway when you are fighting bought and paid for politicians and governors who have pre-decided what outcomes will occur, as Christie did here.
As a former NJ resident and one who keeps up with the news, I can answer the OTW question. BTW this has been covered in other threads.
The reason OTW's have not and quite possibly will never be built is this:...NIMBY.
NJ is made of of over 550 individual towns, boroughs, villages, townships and cities. Each with it's own government and own agenda. NJ is primarily suburban bedroom communities where people reside to be away from the hubub of the city. They want their quiet and relative crime free lifestyles.
It is this kind of set up that enables people and town governments to have near absolute control of the areas inside their borders. Much of the attitude people have is they do not want outsiders in their communities. So to have a venue such as a place where people come from miles around, upsets the feeling of security, the relatively low traffic volume and of course to most residents, outsiders mean a potential for an increase in crime. So given those factors, a betting parlor is perhaps the LAST thing most NJ residents would want in their town.
The other aspect of NJ that makes it difficult is it is a binding referendum state. Meaning, the people get to vote on just about anything that can land on a ballot. And it sticks. So if a town places a referendum on an OTW and 1000 people vote..If the count is 501 against and 499 for, it's a no go and good luck getting it back on the ballot.
Heck NJ tried for years to get in Sunday racing. It went to referendum and the voters led by religious groups, kept rejecting the idea.
Forget OTW's....Unless they can be built in the edges of the Pine Barrens.

[thespaah]

If that's the case then why does Atlantic City get every tax break and sweetheart deal they ask for?
Lots of powerful and long term entrenched politicians from the southern half of the State who support the Casinos. Also those same politicians will fight to near death to keep gambling inside the city limits of AC. And NEVER allow the Meadowlands to become a casino.
I look at that this way..With AC business in the virtual crapper, casinos in PA and CT, AC is seen it's market share of Northeastern gamblers shrink dramatically. A casino in northern NJ and you may as well bring back the diving horse and implode the casinos because AC would lose 75% of their business to a Meadowlands gambling hall.

[thespaah]

he's in bed with the casinos. they think slots and table games at the meadowlands are the end of atlantic city so he's doing anything he can to stop that from happening without realizing the end of AC is inevitable now that PA has table games and NY will follow shortly.
The question is will NY ever see a casino closer to NYC than Verona?..
I understand there was a proposal to build a casino near Monticello but it never got off the ground.
What's the prognosis on a downstate NY casino?

[thespaah]

Why? The only thing the racinos are competing for is cheap horses by having higher purses. If MP offers higher purses, all they are doing is getting a few horses that would have run in PRX. MP's gain is PRX's loss. How is that helping the sport?You offer a lot of commentary.
Obviously you oppose casino subsidies and you oppose slots revenues to boost purses.
Now, in light of your posts, you must have SOME ideas. What I am asking is what do you want? What's your fix?

[Robert Goren]

You offer a lot of commentary.
Obviously you oppose casino subsidies and you oppose slots revenues to boost purses.
Now, in light of your posts, you must have SOME ideas. What I am asking is what do you want? What's your fix? I have made my position quite clear. Takeout rates have to fall to early 1960s levels when race tracks were making money hand over fist. It seems to me that if you have business model that isn't working, then the industry must look back to when the business model was working and what has changed.

[NJ Stinks]

As a former NJ resident and one who keeps up with the news, I can answer the OTW question. BTW this has been covered in other threads.
The reason OTW's have not and quite possibly will never be built is this:...NIMBY.
NJ is made of of over 550 individual towns, boroughs, villages, townships and cities. Each with it's own government and own agenda. NJ is primarily suburban bedroom communities where people reside to be away from the hubub of the city. They want their quiet and relative crime free lifestyles.
It is this kind of set up that enables people and town governments to have near absolute control of the areas inside their borders. Much of the attitude people have is they do not want outsiders in their communities. So to have a venue such as a place where people come from miles around, upsets the feeling of security, the relatively low traffic volume and of course to most residents, outsiders mean a potential for an increase in crime. So given those factors, a betting parlor is perhaps the LAST thing most NJ residents would want in their town.
The other aspect of NJ that makes it difficult is it is a binding referendum state. Meaning, the people get to vote on just about anything that can land on a ballot. And it sticks. So if a town places a referendum on an OTW and 1000 people vote..If the count is 501 against and 499 for, it's a no go and good luck getting it back on the ballot.
Heck NJ tried for years to get in Sunday racing. It went to referendum and the voters led by religious groups, kept rejecting the idea.
Forget OTW's....Unless they can be built in the edges of the Pine Barrens.

To an extent you are right. I know Green Brook passed on an OTB. But what about the 10 acres that were set aside for an OTB at the former location of Garden State Park in Cherry Hill? Garden State closed 10 years ago and still no OTB. The town of Cherry Hill was not and is not stopping it as far as I know. Heck, the town wasn't happy to see the racetrack close let alone stop an OTB at the same location.

And what about the proposed OTB in Bayonne? City officials are all for it from what I read.

Anyway, any town that needs revenue bad enough is going to welcome an OTB IMO.

[Brogan]

The question is will NY ever see a casino closer to NYC than Verona?..
I understand there was a proposal to build a casino near Monticello but it never got off the ground.
What's the prognosis on a downstate NY casino?
Ummm...like the one at Aqueduct?

[Bluto Blutarsky]

As a former NJ resident and one who keeps up with the news, I can answer the OTW question. BTW this has been covered in other threads.
The reason OTW's have not and quite possibly will never be built is this:...NIMBY.
NJ is made of of over 550 individual towns, boroughs, villages, townships and cities. Each with it's own government and own agenda. NJ is primarily suburban bedroom communities where people reside to be away from the hubub of the city. They want their quiet and relative crime free lifestyles.
It is this kind of set up that enables people and town governments to have near absolute control of the areas inside their borders. Much of the attitude people have is they do not want outsiders in their communities. So to have a venue such as a place where people come from miles around, upsets the feeling of security, the relatively low traffic volume and of course to most residents, outsiders mean a potential for an increase in crime. So given those factors, a betting parlor is perhaps the LAST thing most NJ residents would want in their town.
The other aspect of NJ that makes it difficult is it is a binding referendum state. Meaning, the people get to vote on just about anything that can land on a ballot. And it sticks. So if a town places a referendum on an OTW and 1000 people vote..If the count is 501 against and 499 for, it's a no go and good luck getting it back on the ballot.
Heck NJ tried for years to get in Sunday racing. It went to referendum and the voters led by religious groups, kept rejecting the idea.
Forget OTW's....Unless they can be built in the edges of the Pine Barrens.
After initialing being against the OTBs, the citizens of Toms River and Woodbridge have found that there have been very few problems in and around their OTB locations. Both sites are now considered "success stories".

[DSB]

A casino in northern NJ and you may as well bring back the diving horse and implode the casinos because AC would lose 75% of their business to a Meadowlands gambling hall.

And you have what proof of this? An impact study cited a negligible effect on AC if slots were installed at the Big M, I believe it was a .01% decrease.

Even if your projections were correct, would it not make more sense to keep that money in NJ than for AC to lose 75% of its business to Yonkers and Aqueduct? Because if the Big M would cause that much of a decrease, the NYC casinos will do the same.....

[thespaah]

I have made my position quite clear. Takeout rates have to fall to early 1960s levels when race tracks were making money hand over fist. It seems to me that if you have business model that isn't working, then the industry must look back to when the business model was working and what has changed.
Takeout reductions alone will not save the sport.
Track managements have to figure out a way to get people back to the track.
Tracks were making money because on Saturdays there were 30,000 people in attendance.
I used to think weekday crowds of 12,000 at Belmont Park were just ok. That was in the early 80's..Today, 12,000 ANY day would be a banner day.
Today if a few thousand people show up, it's a good day.
THAT is the problem.
Now I understand the position of the large bettors and larger syndicates don't give a hoot about on track attendance. Their priority is large fields, competitive betting races. Ok I get it.
Where is the issue though?
Purses? Nope....Even with the racino/casino money inflating purses, fields are smaller. Yes, foal production in the breed is down. Not enough for every track to have at least two races a per day where the race drew just 5 or 6 entries.
Here's the problem....Too many tracks running simultaneously in close geographic proximity for the same racing stock. The greed of stae governments using milking tracks for every dime they can get has ruined the sport.
An example.....next year's NJ T-bred race date requirement. 141 dates. That's absurd. Monmouth will see 5 and 6 horse fields of cheap claimers racing for low purses. It's a killer scenario.
The whole business model of racing has to be blow up and remade.
First, reduce the cost of the wager( takeout) That gets the big bettors in the game. Offer rebates for online or ADW play. Offer them high roller goodies and perks just like the casinos for on track play.
Give the two dollar bettor a reason to WANT to come to the track. Again, follow the model of the casinos. Food and wagering vouchers.
Get the horsemen to understand that if no one bets, their career is OVER.
Make them understand that the betting/racing relationship is symbiotic.

[Robert Goren]

Takeout reductions alone will not save the sport.
Track managements have to figure out a way to get people back to the track.
Tracks were making money because on Saturdays there were 30,000 people in attendance.
I used to think weekday crowds of 12,000 at Belmont Park were just ok. That was in the early 80's..Today, 12,000 ANY day would be a banner day.
Today if a few thousand people show up, it's a good day.
THAT is the problem.
Now I understand the position of the large bettors and larger syndicates don't give a hoot about on track attendance. Their priority is large fields, competitive betting races. Ok I get it.
Where is the issue though?
Purses? Nope....Even with the racino/casino money inflating purses, fields are smaller. Yes, foal production in the breed is down. Not enough for every track to have at least two races a per day where the race drew just 5 or 6 entries.
Here's the problem....Too many tracks running simultaneously in close geographic proximity for the same racing stock. The greed of stae governments using milking tracks for every dime they can get has ruined the sport.
An example.....next year's NJ T-bred race date requirement. 141 dates. That's absurd. Monmouth will see 5 and 6 horse fields of cheap claimers racing for low purses. It's a killer scenario.
The whole business model of racing has to be blow up and remade.
First, reduce the cost of the wager( takeout) That gets the big bettors in the game. Offer rebates for online or ADW play. Offer them high roller goodies and perks just like the casinos for on track play.
Give the two dollar bettor a reason to WANT to come to the track. Again, follow the model of the casinos. Food and wagering vouchers.
Get the horsemen to understand that if no one bets, their career is OVER.
Make them understand that the betting/racing relationship is symbiotic. They don't rape the small guy either with high take outs. There are very few bets in the casino that have any thing close to a 17+ % takeout.

[thaskalos]

Here's the problem....Too many tracks running simultaneously in close geographic proximity for the same racing stock. The greed of stae governments using milking tracks for every dime they can get has ruined the sport.
An example.....next year's NJ T-bred race date requirement. 141 dates. That's absurd. Monmouth will see 5 and 6 horse fields of cheap claimers racing for low purses. It's a killer scenario.


I agree with you...but I think you are being too easy on the horsemen, by blaming only the state governments for the greed that "has ruined the sport."

The horsemen are equally to blame.

THEY are the ones who love the short field...because it means that fewer horses separate them from a "check".

THEY were the ones who wanted 141 racing days at Monmouth.

And what is this nonsense with all these "late scratches"...which reduce fields of 7 down to 6, or even five?

IMO, all purses should be set up with 10 horses in mind...and 10% of the purse should be taken away for EVERY HORSE, if the race comes up with less than 10 runners.

If the race has 6 horses, then they should run for 60% of the purse.

[thespaah]

And you have what proof of this? An impact study cited a negligible effect on AC if slots were installed at the Big M, I believe it was a .01% decrease.

Even if your projections were correct, would it not make more sense to keep that money in NJ than for AC to lose 75% of its business to Yonkers and Aqueduct? Because if the Big M would cause that much of a decrease, the NYC casinos will do the same.....
It's a guess.
Look at the facts..AC business is to the point where casinos are going bankrupt. Security of visitors is a problem. Just a few months ago two people were car jacked in a casino parking garage. The areas of AC outside the casino district are a hell hole.
Pennsylvania casinos have siphoned off business from AC...
BTW, not slots..A full casino at the Meadowlands. Was that study done? Don't think so..
Please be aware, this is a discussion not an argument.

[thespaah]

They don't rape the small guy either with high take outs. There are very few bets in the casino that have any thing close to a 17+ % takeout.
Correct.

[Tom]

I have made my position quite clear. Takeout rates have to fall to early 1960s levels when race tracks were making money hand over fist. It seems to me that if you have business model that isn't working, then the industry must look back to when the business model was working and what has changed.

What has changed?
Everything.
No matter what tracks do, it will never be the same environment.
There is mucho competition for entertainment nowadays.

[lamboguy]

They don't rape the small guy either with high take outs. There are very few bets in the casino that have any thing close to a 17+ % takeout.

the small guy in casino's always gets raped. they get nothing back for their play. in small poker games they have rakes of 10%. if you go on a crap table they pay 36-1 shots at the rate of 30-1. or 6/5 shots at a rate of 11/10. you make it sound like these casino's are the next coming of the salvation army.

if you want to pay less takeout in horses than casino's charge try getting a place that gives rebates for smaller players, there are places and i am sure you will be happy.

[thespaah]

I agree with you...but I think you are being too easy on the horsemen, by blaming only the state governments for the greed that "has ruined the sport."

The horsemen are equally to blame.

THEY are the ones who love the short field...because it means that fewer horses separate them from a "check".

THEY were the ones who wanted 141 racing days at Monmouth.

And what is this nonsense with all these "late scratches"...which reduce fields of 7 down to 6, or even five?

IMO, all purses should be set up with 10 horses in mind...and 10% of the purse should be taken away for EVERY HORSE, if the race comes up with less than 10 runners.

If the race has 6 horses, then they should run for 60% of the purse.
One of my biggest peeves in thoroughbred racing is it's too easy to scratch a horse.
To my knowledge in harness racing, if a trainer wants to scratch, he'd better have a damned good reason. In fact the only two reasons I am aware of are a vet scratch or a judge scratch. Field integrity is key.
On purses, NYRA will increase a purse in certain races if the field is more than a designated amount of starters. If the number of starters falls below that level, the purse is reduced.
Racing secretaries seem to write races that are illogical. Why write a NW3 allowance if that race is going to attract few entries.

[thaskalos]

if you go on a crap table they pay 36-1 shots at the rate of 30-1. or 6/5 shots at a rate of 11/10.
Bet the pass, or the don't pass lines...or go over to the mini-baccarat. :)

[lamboguy]

Bet the pass, or the don't pass lines...or go over to the mini-baccarat. :)i am like you, i only bet on things that have some type of a form. i have never been able to find a form on a dice table or a bacarat game

[thespaah]

Ummm...like the one at Aqueduct?

I mean a REAL casino. With table games and a race wagering area.
I read on here that the parking lot at Aqueduct is jammed with the slots players.
However, I believe a full casino would be the way to go.
One thing.....For people from across the river in NY and NJ, the drive to Aqueduct is nothing short of an adventure. $15 in tolls and the traffic is murder. Not a lot of fun.
I'd like to see a survey of people who play Aqueduct slots indicating where they reside. I do not think I'd be going out on a limb by guessing mainly from Brooklyn, Queens and Nassau County.

[thespaah]

After initialing being against the OTBs, the citizens of Toms River and Woodbridge have found that there have been very few problems in and around their OTB locations. Both sites are now considered "success stories".
Of course. Town officials must convince the residents of this. Not an easy task.

[thespaah]

the small guy in casino's always gets raped. they get nothing back for their play. in small poker games they have rakes of 10%. if you go on a crap table they pay 36-1 shots at the rate of 30-1. or 6/5 shots at a rate of 11/10. you make it sound like these casino's are the next coming of the salvation army.

if you want to pay less takeout in horses than casino's charge try getting a place that gives rebates for smaller players, there are places and i am sure you will be happy.
Good mathematical points. Here's the rub. Casinos are fun for everyone.
The casino wants the player of to have a good time. If the player is a novice, the dealers are trained to help out.
BTW if casinos "gave nothing back" for the play, no one would go.

[Vinman]

Unfortunately, Thoroughbed racing at Monmouth Park will be running on "impulse power" a Star Trekian phrase for "life support" until such time that a full casino is in operation at the Meadowlands. Everyone knows that.

To be sure, it will take years, if not an entire decade for this to happen. If Christie is re-elected, we're talking a minimum of two years after he's gone, provided a statewide constitutional amendment passes.....and the South Jersey crowd will fight tooth & nail to keep it off the ballot....because it WILL pass, just as permission to allow sports betting in NJ did. (should the Feds okay it).

Ultimately, what it will take for a casino at the Meadowlands to finally happen, aside from Christie leaving office, is a deterioration of gaming business in Atlantic City that is so horrifyingly steep that some of the Aycee casinos have to close. At that point, the light bulb will finally go off among almost all NJ poiticians who value their jobs (except the South Jersey die hards) that there truly is a "need for a huge new source of gaming revenue" that only a full casino at the Meadowlands can deliver.

Aqueduct just opened the second half of their 5,000 slots. I don't see any reason why Gov. Andrew Cuomo won't back a full casino there with live table games. Even without them, I can't wait to see the January gaming numbers for Atlantic City....and what, if any "spin", is put on them.

So now racing at Monmouth must endure the continued wrath of Mr. Christie, who had no problem writing a huge check to finish the newest Atlantic City money pit, the Revel Casino hotel, a project that was abandoned by some of the brightest minds in the financial world, such as Morgan Stanley.

Hang in there Monmouth....it's going to be a long siege, but help will eventually arrive.

Vinman, who broke his "racing maiden" at Monmouth Park on Sapling day, July 27th 1968.

[Robert Goren]

As a liberal democrat, there are few things I like see happen more than Christi get beat in his reelection bid. But it ain't going to happen. The only this guy doesn't serve a full 8 years is if he elected president in 2016.

[lamboguy]

Unfortunately, Thoroughbed racing at Monmouth Park will be running on "impulse power" a Star Trekian phrase for "life support" until such time that a full casino is in operation at the Meadowlands. Everyone knows that.

To be sure, it will take years, if not an entire decade for this to happen. If Christie is re-elected, we're talking a minimum of two years after he's gone, provided a statewide constitutional amendment passes.....and the South Jersey crowd will fight tooth & nail to keep it off the ballot....because it WILL pass, just as permission to allow sports betting in NJ did. (should the Feds okay it).

Ultimately, what it will take for a casino at the Meadowlands to finally happen, aside from Christie leaving office, is a deterioration of gaming business in Atlantic City that is so horrifyingly steep that some of the Aycee casinos have to close. At that point, the light bulb will finally go off among almost all NJ poiticians who value their jobs (except the South Jersey die hards) that there truly is a "need for a huge new source of gaming revenue" that only a full casino at the Meadowlands can deliver.

Aqueduct just opened the second half of their 5,000 slots. I don't see any reason why Gov. Andrew Cuomo won't back a full casino there with live table games. Even without them, I can't wait to see the January gaming numbers for Atlantic City....and what, if any "spin", is put on them.

So now racing at Monmouth must endure the continued wrath of Mr. Christie, who had no problem writing a huge check to finish the newest Atlantic City money pit, the Revel Casino hotel, a project that was abandoned by some of the brightest minds in the financial world, such as Morgan Stanley.

Hang in there Monmouth....it's going to be a long siege, but help will eventually arrive.

Vinman, who broke his "racing maiden" at Monmouth Park on Sapling day, July 27th 1968.what is incredible is monmouth has a giant fan base for years now. people from jersey really know horses. when the money came in for $5k claimers there were 20 claim slips for every race. new jersey is horse country usa, its a shame to blow that place because of political bs.

the horseman running the show have just made a mockery out of ligitimate people trying to run horses. they want 140 days so they can grab day money. that place does not warrant 140 days now. its a joke. the entry box will be empty and less people playing the place.

while they have the casino money they should do something solid to promote people to participate in the place instead of scaring them away.

[The Hawk]

Lots of powerful and long term entrenched politicians from the southern half of the State who support the Casinos. Also those same politicians will fight to near death to keep gambling inside the city limits of AC. And NEVER allow the Meadowlands to become a casino.

Of course. My question was a rhetorical one.

A casino in northern NJ and you may as well bring back the diving horse and implode the casinos because AC would lose 75% of their business to a Meadowlands gambling hall.

This is nonsense, and it's what the southern politicians would like for the sheeple to believe. There was already an independent study done, by Rutgers, I believe, that stated a casino at the Meadowlands would have a negligible impact on AC. Why? Because people from northern NJ are already staying away from AC in droves, and instead going to casinos in other states. Why would you drive 2 1/2 hours to play slots when you can drive a half-hour?

The only solution that makes any sense is to put a casino in at the Meadowlands and have the AC casinos share in it. Even better, let them run it, they have the experience. There's no better spot in the country for a casino, with a direct, 8 minute train ride from midtown Manhattan. They'd not only make millions from Pennsylvania, NY and CT residents but they'd keep NJ money in state.

[The Hawk]

what is incredible is monmouth has a giant fan base for years now. people from jersey really know horses. when the money came in for $5k claimers there were 20 claim slips for every race. new jersey is horse country usa, its a shame to blow that place because of political bs.

the horseman running the show have just made a mockery out of ligitimate people trying to run horses. they want 140 days so they can grab day money. that place does not warrant 140 days now. its a joke. the entry box will be empty and less people playing the place.

while they have the casino money they should do something solid to promote people to participate in the place instead of scaring them away.

Agreed 100%.

[redshift1]

Out of touch reporting by NJ paper paints Christie as the savior of NJ racing. Nothing wrong with Christie's cost cutting measures but they're not across the board, he is absolutely in thrall to AC while horse-racing suffers and many of NJ's gamblers go the shorter path to out of state casinos.

Read the comments section for the real picture.



http://blog.nj.com/njv_editorial_page/2011/12/big_win_for_gov_chris_christie.html

[Robert Goren]

what is incredible is monmouth has a giant fan base for years now. people from jersey really know horses. when the money came in for $5k claimers there were 20 claim slips for every race. new jersey is horse country usa, its a shame to blow that place because of political bs.

the horseman running the show have just made a mockery out of ligitimate people trying to run horses. they want 140 days so they can grab day money. that place does not warrant 140 days now. its a joke. the entry box will be empty and less people playing the place.

while they have the casino money they should do something solid to promote people to participate in the place instead of scaring them away.What does the number of claim slips have to do the size of the fan base. Obviously NJ racing does not have a huge base any more or they would not be scrambling for money from off track sources. Horse racing everywhere has worked overtime to chase off it fans. NJ is no exception. NJ horsemen seem to think that by increase purses and luring 1 more horse a race away from Parx or where ever that the bettors are going to come back in droves. It ain't going to happen. The greed and the shortsightedness of the horsemen never cease to amaze me.

[lamboguy]

What does the number of claim slips have to do the size of the fan base. Obviously NJ racing does not have a huge base any more or they would not be scrambling for money from off track sources. Horse racing everywhere has worked overtime to chase off it fans. NJ is no exception. NJ horsemen seem to think that by increase purses and luring 1 more horse a race away from Parx or where ever that the bettors are going to come back in droves. It ain't going to happen. The greed and the shortsightedness of the horsemen never cease to amaze me.
you obviously have spent a lot time of time researching new jersey racing and must have spent some time in monmouth to come up with the conclusions that you have made. i am not defending the horseman or the race track in new jersey like all the others here defend NYRA. to me the horsemen have been nothing but punching bags in the state of new jersey for years. they approved the casino money deal, and it is going to backfire on them now for sure.

[wonatthewire1]

What does the number of claim slips have to do the size of the fan base. Obviously NJ racing does not have a huge base any more or they would not be scrambling for money from off track sources. Horse racing everywhere has worked overtime to chase off it fans. NJ is no exception. NJ horsemen seem to think that by increase purses and luring 1 more horse a race away from Parx or where ever that the bettors are going to come back in droves. It ain't going to happen. The greed and the shortsightedness of the horsemen never cease to amaze me.

Robert, you may wish to take a look at all the SUBSIDES that the state doles out to the welfare casinos.

NJ can't afford that either - shouldn't the casinos be able to stand on their own as well?

[onefast99]

What does the number of claim slips have to do the size of the fan base. Obviously NJ racing does not have a huge base any more or they would not be scrambling for money from off track sources. Horse racing everywhere has worked overtime to chase off it fans. NJ is no exception. NJ horsemen seem to think that by increase purses and luring 1 more horse a race away from Parx or where ever that the bettors are going to come back in droves. It ain't going to happen. The greed and the shortsightedness of the horsemen never cease to amaze me.
NJ racing is set up to include the 5 otw's(once the other 4 are built out)and the tracks which include MP and the Meadowlands as well as 4njbets.com, monies from those revenue sources go to pay all the bills whether you like it or not. Unfortuneately MP is the loss leader losing a lot of money but playing a very important part as the axis of NJ racing. You can keep bitching about the horseman all you want but remember MP is and always will be a functioning part of the states racing industry.

[Robert Goren]

Most business which constantly have a major part of their business as "loss leader" either go broke or they dump the "loss leader". But then again what hell do you care because you make money as being part of the "loss leader", not as being part of the profit generating end of the business. I am always how parts of the "loss leading" parts of the business think that the profit part of the business can't get a long without them. You be amazed how really profitable those NJ OTBs could be if they didn't have Monmouth Park eat into their profits. Just ask any race book in Vegas how they are doing and you get a pretty idea of the NJ OTBs could do.

[lamboguy]

slot machines and casino's are a non-productive industry. the only ones that benefit from the fleecing of the public are the employees, and the owners indians or corporations.

horse racing benefit the farmers that raise and feed the animals, one horse puts 10 times more people to work than a slot machine. the racing game teaches people life, casino's turn people into burglers.

[onefast99]

Most business which constantly have a major part of their business as "loss leader" either go broke or they dump the "loss leader". But then again what hell do you care because you make money as being part of the "loss leader", not as being part of the profit generating end of the business. I am always how parts of the "loss leading" parts of the business think that the profit part of the business can't get a long without them. You be amazed how really profitable those NJ OTBs could be if they didn't have Monmouth Park eat into their profits. Just ask any race book in Vegas how they are doing and you get a pretty idea of the NJ OTBs could do.
I am both an owner and a bettor, there are many owners as well as other horseman who bet on the horses quite regularly, but I am sure you knew that. A loss leader is something that may not be profitable but brings people back to other facets of a business or industry, for instance the simulcast theatre does very well at MP and is frequented by many of those who go to MP when there is live racing going on. The NJSEA has to market the simulcast theatre better by adding a restaurant that will attract even more people. The Favorites OTW in Woodbridge NJ is the top grossing OTW in the country, and there are still 4 more OTW's to be built which will add more profit to the bottom line. They are all part of the system that keeps NJ racing going. You are just clueless on how the system works.

[alhattab]

Looks like Monmouth back to sched similar to 2011. 50 days mid-May to Labor Day with another 15-20 @ Mth w/some @ Med on grass course. $400k/day.

http://www.app.com/article/20120207/NJNEWS1002/302070015/Monmouth-Park-bid-back-running?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Frontpage

[thespaah]

I have a question. Do the thoroughbred horsemen take a share of ALL simulcast revenue or just what is bet through those outlets into the Monmouth pools?
If that is the case, seems fine to me. But if they want a percentage of all simulcast wagers, that is wrong.
Correct if I am wrong but the NJ Thoroughbred horsemen believe they should get a larger share because it is their breed which gets people into the door to wager.
I think they are just looking to make a money grab.
The thing is most of the simulcast revenue goes into the NY and CA pools. New Jersey racing is not a first priority. The handle numbers bear that out.
So while it makes sense for NJ t-Bred horsemen to demand a cut of the bets on their races, they should not be entitled to a piece of wagers going into the pools of other jurisdictions.

[Robert Goren]

I for one think that the horseman's group taking over the track is good news. My local track is run by the horseman's group. Things soon changed when they took over. It was then they got through their heads that the track was not going to open long if they did treat the race going public better. It may close anyway because the university which owns the land is thinking about doing other things with it. But at least the track hasn't lost a ton of money the last few years like it was doing before.
If the horsemen do take over Monmouth Park, you will see some changes in the way NJ horsemen think in about a year. There nothing like having to pay the bills that changes minds.