NYRA What A Joke

[IRISHLADSTABLE]

Once again the powers to be at the NYRA have me pissed off.

Showing no regard toward the racing fan.

How in God's name did they open for business today.

What they dont watch the weather channel ?

Was the snow storm a big surprise to them ?

Hey guys let's hit where it hurts the most in the pocket

Join me an play Fairgrounds this winter .

Jimmy

[stgeorge]

Whenever I hear or read complaints like this I'm left scratching my head, don't YOU watch the Weather Channel?

NYRA doesn't force people to come out to the races when there is a threat of inclement weather.

On the other hand, owners, trainers and jocks depend on racing to earn a living, so the track is almost obligated to try and run if at all possible.

[The Hawk]

Why anyone would bet seriously on the winter meet at Aqueduct is beyond me to begin with. It's not so much that the weather is lousy but then you find you're betting into a pool with odds that change during the running of the race, almost always falling on the horse on the lead. It happens at other tracks, true, but nowhere is it as bad as in NY. Not to mention that for a major circuit the racing is generally atrocious, with a few exceptions....

[The Hawk]

The track isn't obligated to run at all. They are, however, obligated to ensure the safety of the horses, jockeys and patrons at the track, and running even one race today was not only moronic but it was downright dangerous.

[Suff]

And I've seen this over and over at NY. There is something about the only way they want to cancel or that the rules are setup to cancel.. is that The Jockeys come out for Race 1 and give it a go.

I can recall a handful of times or more.. that NYRA cancels as the horses are preparing to LOAD for the first. I also recall a few cancels after race 1 in recent times.

Who knows...

[Observer]

Originally posted by The Hawk
... you're betting into a pool with odds that change during the running of the race, almost always falling on the horse on the lead ...

It's one thing to not like the product .. that's fine .. but this argument of the odds changing at tracks during the running of the race, especially since the Breeders' Cup Fix Six, is unfair, at least to me.

If the odds change on the horse on the lead .. the odds need to adjust somewhere else too .. so odds on other runners are going to have to balance out for that horse on the lead .. one horse can not change without effecting the odds of the rest of the field. Funny, I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain when the odds on their horse drifted up during the running of a race!
;)

And as for the change happening during the running of a race .. explain to me how the odds will not change during the running of a race if wagering does not stop until the horses are in the gate?? The adjustment for all those last second wagers getting in can not happen the split second the wagers are made .. there is a delay in the update of the system .. and if I'm correct .. the graphic display on the TV during the running of the race, which shows the first four runners and their odds .. that's delayed behind the toteboard .. so if the board goes through a normal adjustment for the late money a few seconds after the gate opens .. the TV will be a few more seconds behind that.

I would also believe that this "problem" would tend to be more of an "issue" at tracks that have larger handles .. since there is more tabulating that needs to occur.

Bettors can't have it both ways .. at least not with current technology that's in place .. betting can't be expected to go to the last possible moment in addition to not having odds update on the screen once the race is off. Maybe the best thing for tracks to do is not display odds during the running of a race??? Then no one would feel they are being "cheated."

And one last thing .. what's the difference if odds drop too low in the final minute, as opposed to after they've broken from the gate??? Late money coming in will always change the final odds somehow .. whether cut-off time is 1 minute to post, post time, or when they break from the gate .. no matter what .. you’re stuck with the final odds, regardless of what odds you bet into hoping to get. To me, it just doesn't matter if the change happens whether they're running or not .. it's all out of my control once the bet is made. .. That doesn't mean I'm not disappointed if my odds drop .. but I accept that as part of the game.

[IRISHLADSTABLE]

Originally posted by The Hawk

Stgeorge,

I think The Hawk got my Point . Something that
eluded You.

Jimmy / Irishladstable

The track isn't obligated to run at all. They are, however, obligated to ensure the safety of the horses, jockeys and patrons at the track, and running even one race today was not only moronic but it was downright dangerous.

[stgeorge]

Originally posted by The Hawk
The track isn't obligated to run at all.

I wrote, "almost obligated", and I find it hard to argue that a track, any track, isn't almost under an obligation to run when at all possible because there are people depending on running to make a living.

They are, however, obligated to ensure the safety of the horses, jockeys...

That's why they canceled after the first.

But the original post stated, "Showing no regard toward the racing fan... What they dont watch the weather channel?"

And I still wonder why a fan would be upset. Fans can also watch the Weather Channel and choose to stay home. No one is twisting your arm to go to Aqueduct when the weather is threatening.

[stgeorge]

I think The Hawk got my Point . Something that
eluded You

Feel free to enlighten me but I was going by the fact that you were upset and thought the track showed no regard for fans. And then you wondered why they didn't watch the Weather Channel.

I still wonder why YOU didn't watch the Weather Channel. NYRA doesn't force anyone to go to the track when the weather looks bad.

[IRISHLADSTABLE]

Originally posted by stgeorge
Feel free to enlighten me but I was going by the fact that you were upset and thought the track showed no regard for fans. And then you wondered why they didn't watch the Weather Channel.

I still wonder why YOU didn't watch the Weather Channel. NYRA doesn't force anyone to go to the track when the weather looks bad.

Stgeorge,
Good Morning ,
I dont want to get into a pissing contest with you. As a former owner who raced in various states I realize the financial impact of closing for the day.
No I'm not pissed because I tried to go to the track and it cxl
after one race. Im pissed for the lack of regard the NYRA shows toward's it patron's. Yesterday morning the powers to be a AQu sat down and had a talk . In this group was some one who represented the jock's , the mutual clerks, The Track Superintendent, The concession personnel, .
They sat and spoke and someone made a decision to Open the track. We'll give it a go, someone said. Anyone we know missing from the above list ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????

Ya The aveage Joe who was planning to come to the track
yesterday. Was he/she represented ?? Was his/her's concern's discussed ?. We all know the answer to the above question.
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
The NYRA doesn't give a sh*t about me or you. That's my POINT. Before you get into know one forced those people to leave there house and go thur the trouble of getting to the track .
I realize the track didnt twist any one's arm to come to the track. But they shu make business decision's that take Everyone's concern's into consideration, not just there own.

Enjoy the snow everyone

Jimmy

[takeout]

Originally posted by Suff
I can recall a handful of times or more.. that NYRA cancels as the horses are preparing to LOAD for the first. I also recall a few cancels after race 1 in recent times.
Yeah, I wish tracks would make an earlier call on closing down their live racing. The problem is that most of the time we have to guess what the jocks are likely to do. It's ultimately their call and they don't make it until they get there and look the track over and maybe ride a race or two. If we guess wrong, and are not interested in the simulcast races, we, as well as many horsemen shipping in, have made the trip for nothing.

I've also been the victim of jocks refusing to ride a sloppy track when it was 70 degrees out. Now how do you handicap that? :rolleyes:

[The Hawk]

RE: Observer's post***:


***If the odds change on the horse on the lead .. the odds need to adjust somewhere else too .. so odds on other runners are going to have to balance out for that horse on the lead ..

They DO adjust...usually on the horses that are out of the race, so you don't see it until after the odds are re-posted, which generally goes unnoticed unless someone is looking for it. Check it out

***Funny, I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain when the odds on their horse drifted up during the running of a race!

Frankly, I've literally never seen this happen on a low-priced horse. I've seen 8-1 shots go up to 9-1 or 10-1, but I have literally never seen a horse with odds that were in the vicinity of 8-5 or so go up at a NYRA track. NEVER. And I watch those races nearly every day (without pari-mutuel interest, so there are no sour grapes involved), and I've been playing horses for 20 years.

***And as for the change happening during the running of a race .. explain to me how the odds will not change during the running of a race if wagering does not stop until the horses are in the gate?? The adjustment for all those last second wagers getting in can not happen the split second the wagers are made .. there is a delay in the update of the system..

I'm trying to explain to you that the evidence suggests, at least to me, that someone, or a group of people, are able to get into the system, or are already in the system, while the race is being run. This is pure conjecture by a person with no advanved computer skills but perhaps there could even be a loophole where sizable bets are made on likely winners, and they're able to be cancelled or, conversely, allowed to stand during the running of the race. If I made big bets on three horses, and one had a clear lead through a slow opening quarter, and then was able to find a loophole to cancel the other two bets, what would happen on the board? Just what's happening now. Impossible, right? Before October 2002, if I had told you I could get into the pools and change an existing Pick 6 ticket, would you have believed that?

***I would also believe that this "problem" would tend to be more of an "issue" at tracks that have larger handles .. since there is more tabulating that needs to occur.

The tracks where they have larger handles is the perfect place...the odds drop is less dramatic. Right now, the drops are noticable. At a small track they would be huge. Remember, this problem first received attention at Gulfstream. I play smaller tracks and I can't think of more than a couple of examples over the past five years. It happens nearly every day at NYRA.

***Bettors can't have it both ways .. at least not with current technology that's in place .. betting can't be expected to go to the last possible moment in addition to not having odds update on the screen once the race is off.

Not true...I get real-time quotes on the stocks in my portfolio. The NYSE, you might agree, handles a little more money than NYRA. Why can't there be an upgrade of the technology, before everyone gets sick of this larceny and finds something else to do?

***Maybe the best thing for tracks to do is not display odds during the running of a race??? Then no one would feel they are being "cheated."

Actually, since I don't play NYRA tracks, I would LOVE to see this. Maybe someone would actually look further into this problem the first time a horse goes into the gate at 6-1 and pays $4.40. Well, maybe the 2nd or 3rd time...

***And one last thing .. what's the difference if odds drop too low in the final minute, as opposed to after they've broken from the gate??? Late money coming in will always change the final odds somehow .. whether cut-off time is 1 minute to post, post time, or when they break from the gate .. no matter what .. you’re stuck with the final odds, regardless of what odds you bet into hoping to get.

This can be avoided with state-of-the-art software and technology, as stated above. There's no reason we can't have the final odds at off time, if the pools are closed as the last horse enters the gate.

***To me, it just doesn't matter if the change happens whether they're running or not .. it's all out of my control once the bet is made. .. That doesn't mean I'm not disappointed if my odds drop .. but I accept that as part of the game.

Really? Do you like betting football? I don't, but I'll give you your preferred team, any team, plus 10 points. Then, I'll call you at halftime and give you the UPDATED, FINAL line. Let's see how that works out for you.

[Tom]

Getting a bit off topic, but has anyone ever seen any studies done that quatiify this? What is considered a significant drop after the race starts, how often does the horse who gets the money actually win, if the horse that gets the most money late was already the favorites, or was it a longshot, and is there any patter as to trainers, jocks, owners, etc?
Would like to see some real data on this.

[stgeorge]

Originally posted by IRISHLADSTABLE
Ya The aveage Joe who was planning to come to the track
yesterday. Was he/she represented ?? Was his/her's concern's discussed ?. We all know the answer to the above question.
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

No pissing contest here. I'm just discussing an opinion I've heard expressed after cancellations before and I'm always puzzled by it.

As fans we're ALL aware that certain weather can lead to racetracks canceling. We also know that SNOW is one of those weathers types that can lead to a cancellation. Therefore, in December, January and February it's only prudent for a fan to check the weather before heading to the track.

And if a fan knows that a storm is in the forecast and STILL chooses to go to the track then the onus is on THE FAN.

Otherwise it's a situation of, "I know tracks sometimes cancel when it snows. I know it might snow. So I know the track might cancel today. But I'm going anyway and if they cancel I'll be pissed!"

At some point we have to take responsibility for ourselves. If snow is in the forecast stay home if you don't want to chance a cancellation.

[The Hawk]

I agree with Stgeorge. Everyone who went to the track saw how the weather was en route. But the fact that NYRA felt the need to run a race before cancelling is what was ridiculous. It was okay to run a race at 12:30 but 20 minutes later it suddenly became obvious that they weren't going to be able to run until at least Sunday?

[Observer]

Originally posted by The Hawk
... It was okay to run a race at 12:30 but 20 minutes later it suddenly became obvious that they weren't going to be able to run until at least Sunday?

This snow storm was a real doozy .. probably one of the worst we've had .. since last year! :D Seriously, though .. the storm came in a lot faster than it was supposed to .. I had been hearing it was supposed to pick up in intensity throughout the afternoon .. not become so severe so quickly as it did. Anyway .. the weather is what it is .. and sometimes, it's just unpredictable.

I never could have imagined .. a regular trip I make that typically takes me 40 minutes to drive .. took me 5 hours in that Friday storm!
:eek:

[Tom]

Originally posted by Observer

......I never could have imagined .. a regular trip I make that typically takes me 40 minutes to drive .. took me 5 hours in that Friday storm!
:eek:

WOW! What a daily variant that was!:D

[PaceAdvantage]

Has it ever occured to anyone that perhaps the reason NYRA often runs one race and then cancels is because the jockeys want to see how the track feels and what the conditions are like? With the snow coming down on Friday, visibility was hampered, plus the winds were blowing pretty good.

Perhaps the jockeys wanted to make a go of it, went out there and ran, then came back and said "It's not going to fly".....

Thus, they cancel....make sense?

As for the fans who went out there...well...they knew as well as everyone else what might happen.

[The Hawk]

I don't argue whether running one to let the jocks get a feel is a bad idea, I think it's generally a good one, but Friday was obviously a day to just cancel and be done with it. I work in NYC and the conditions walking to get lunch were horrendous, given the wind and all, never mind riding horses. Like I posted earlier, the conditions were obviously bad to NYRA officials, too, as they cancelled that card as well as the next day's 20 minutes later. I don't think management should have even have let the jocks try it on that day. God forbid a horse went down, it would have been indefensible...

For the record, PA, I agree with you about the fans, some of whom may have been looking to play simulcast tracks anyway...

[takeout]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Perhaps the jockeys wanted to make a go of it, went out there and ran, then came back and said "It's not going to fly".....
Either that or management wanted them to make a go of it.

Jocks can stop a race card whenever they want if enough of them refuse to ride. They can stop it after the 1st, 3rd, 5th, whatever. I've seen them stop cards with only 2 or 3 races left to run. Of course that was at Charles Town, a track I now refer to as "King of the Closers". (They've already closed 30 times this year.) Wait 'til NY gets slots. You'll probably be lucky if they run them at all in a light rain. :D

[PaceAdvantage]

Takeout, your last post contradicts itself....

IF management WANTED them to make a go of it (and I'm SURE they did...what management WOULDN'T want to make money), it wouldn't MATTER, because as you say, the JOCKEYS are able to stop a card whenever they want (and you are correct, they CAN do this).

So, I don't really get the point. Your post (as I am taking it to read), seems to be saying that management may have forced the jocks hand by 'making' them ride that first and only race. If the jockeys did NOT want to ride because they felt it might be too risky, they wouldn't have.....

And for the record, the weather forecast for Saturday was MUCH more dire than Friday's INITIAL forecast, which called for trace amounts to maybe 1 inch of accumulation.....as all of us who live here saw, that forecast for Friday was WAY off.....

So, it is very understandable that NYRA announced that Saturday would be cancelled at the same time they announced that the remainder of Friday's card would be called off.

[The Hawk]

PA, we'll agree to disagree about the forecast and the predicted severity of the storm. Like they say. "Difference of opinion is what makes horse racing"...and, apparently, meteorology!

[takeout]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Your post (as I am taking it to read), seems to be saying that management may have forced the jocks hand by 'making' them ride that first and only race.
I wasn't necessarily saying that, although I would guess that management sometimes puts whatever pressure they can on them to ride, especially in conditions that don't outwardly appear to be that severe. Maybe the jocks sometimes do ride a race or two, before they pull the plug, just to humor management somewhat.??

I can certainly see the jock's side of it too. If I was a jock that was in fair demand (and/or making decent money from inflated slot purses) I probably wouldn't chance riding on a borderline day either. Sure would be nice if they could somehow figure out a way to make that decision way ahead of post time, though.