HSH

[sq764]

Ok, What seperates HSH from the rest?

A few thoughts:

1) I have emailed Dave S and he's answered all of my questions with reasonable and concienscous answers

2) He also sent me cd's that explained how to use HSH

3) I have heard HSH is the best software out there.

4) How can you justify $500 for a piece of software??

5) How can you justify $125 per month on top of the software cost?

[Dave Schwartz]

Uh, $600 and $129.

<G>

[Dave Schwartz]

PS: An old saying: "It is cheap at twice the price if it works" (for you).

We like to think that HSH is more likely to work for you.

[Speed Figure]

If you heard that HSH is the best program out there than, $600 is not alot of money. ALL-WAYS pro cost $695 + $14 per race card or $7 if you spend $100 per month. That's 15 race cards for $105 or all tracks for $129.

[jackad]

speed figure
How can I enlarge your avatar?
Jack

[cato]

and slow it down!:)

[Dick Schmidt]

SQ, I think you may be on to something. Something is definitely wrong at HSH. Let's look at your points:


1) I have emailed Dave S and he's answered all of my questions with reasonable and consciences (sic) answers

If he was really any good, he'd be so arrogant that he would never speak to you or ever return an e-mail for at least a month.


2) He also sent me Cd's that explained how to use HSH

If it can be explained simply and rationally on a CD, then it must be too damn simple to be effective.


3) I have heard HSH is the best software out there.

Always a telling point against any piece of software. Personally I would never use any program that was thought to be the best.


4) How can you justify $500 for a piece of software??

You're right there. $500 (or $600) is WAY too cheap for a professionally written piece of software. The software I use everyday (commodity trading, not handicapping) costs $2500 plus $400 a month. I have a friend who just purchased a trading program for $10,000 (plus something like $900 a month or so. My friend has forgotten since he is up about $30,000 in three weeks. $10,000, what a rip!)

The answer lies in what the program produces. If you can win $100 a week with a program, it seems logical to me that it is worth at least a year's income. Maybe more. Take a look at the HSH BB and count how many of Dave's suckers have become winners in the past year.

On the other hand, if you can buy a nice program for $19.95, why spend the money for HSH. Of course, the cheapo may cost you a couple of grand at the windows, but think of all the money you saved.

5) How can you justify $125 per month on top of the software cost?

Think of all you could save here. Who cares if HDW data is the best available, and that using it will save you several losers a week? It's so much better to pay half a buck for data even if it has a few errors. Unless, of course, you intend to actually BET using those numbers. Even if you just play one track on weekends, if you bet anything like a significant amount of money you will be ahead. But only in the long run, so watch out.


Yup, I think you're on to something about that no good HSH program. I'd keep away from it if I were you. After all, it's what a program costs the first day that is important, not what it costs for the first year or more. Hope to see you at the races. Bring money.

Dick

Who understands the difference between cost and price.

[shane]

If Dave will permit it anyone can have my copy of HSH for $100.
Shane

[sq764]

Hey DICK,

I didn't make any judgements one way or the other on HSH, I just threw the question out there.

Your sarcasm really helps. I enjoy asking for helpful opinions and getting idiot responses such as yours. I guess I know what to expect from you in the future.

[Larry Hamilton]

I hesitate saying this, but can hold it no more. When My kids were teenagers, I told them thousands of time--If you cant stand the answer, dont ask the question.......

[sq764]

Well, for your kid's sake, I certainly hope you didn't answer legitimate questions with sarcastic assinine remarks.

[Dave Schwartz]

Shane,

I think I know who you are and assume you own a valid license.

We DO support the transfer of license to a new owner. We charge a $100 fee for the transfer process, which ensures that the user gets the most current installation and all the support necessary to bring them up to speed. In other words, they become first-class customers just like everyone else.

In addition, we will "broker" the registration process.

If a licensed user makes such a deal we will accept payment from the new user for whatever amount is agreed upon and distribute the appropriate portion to the original seller. Payment to us must "clear" before we distribute funds. We charge no fee for this service.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Dave Schwartz]

SQ,

LOL - Dick simply has a warped sense of humor and is not to be taken seriously most of the time. It is simply his style.

You would be amazed how many emails I get from people that start with something like, "Why does Dick Schmidt dislike you so much?" (This happens often after he makes posts such as this one.)


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[eclecticapper]

While I prefer betting to writing, I thought I'd chime in since I use HSH. Dave frequently mentions that HSH is designed to answer the question "What kind of horse wins a race like this?", but it's important to note that the user decides how to define "a race like this". For example, check out the entries for the 7th at Aqueduct today. You can define the race as a sprint, a claiming sprint, a 3yo claiming sprint, a 3yo filly claiming sprint, etc. Your handicapping will be based on how broadly or narrowly you choose to define "a race like this". The variations are pretty much limitless, so handicapping with HSH is very much a reflection of the creativity of the individual user. You get out of it what you put into it. I rarely post here, but you can read some of my posts/selections on the Horsestreet.com BBS; my user name there is KyKeith. It's worth noting that some HSH users are doing quite well in the trackchampion.com contests. My experience has been that HSH users are very supportive of each other's efforts and new users are always welcome.

[Larry Hamilton]

My youngest child is just 30 years old, I dont have all that much influence over him anymore--any advice you have about how I should raise my children is wasted.

[Dick Schmidt]

SQ,

Well, I guess my sense of humor missed once again. It happens a lot, though two people sent me e-mails telling me they liked it. Can't win them all.

I would point out that though some of my responses were indeed sarcastic, they also answered all your questions. And you must realize that just by posting questions like this, you are calling the program into question. By asking how a program can be worth $500, you are implying that it may not be, and is overpriced when compared to others.

If you want straight answers from the source, then give Dave another call or post on his BB. That way you get answers from true users of the software, answers that reflect direct experience with the program.

Lastly when you post questions to an open forum, don't think that you can also control the answers you get, or their tone. If you don't like what I say, don't read it, but also don't try to dictate how I respond to your posts. When you post dumb questions, you can expect snotty answers. I mean, I assume you DO know why a piece of software or data is worth the price; because it earns the customer more than what is paid for it. Hiding behind the "I was just asking" smokescreen don't fly. We are all responsible for our actions and must take our lumps when others don't see things in the same light as we do.


Lumpy Dick

Who meets a lot of people without a sense of humor.

[sq764]

Dick, I didn't try to control your answer, I just found it to be useless, that is all.

Secondly, I didn't question the program by asking is it worth $500. I heard someone was selling a program for $5,000 once (the name of the guy escapes me). Am I to think that this program is worth $5,000 because it makes people money?

I am not sure how I 'didn't see things your way', when I made no judgement on the program one way or the other. If you presumed I did, that is on you.

I cannot control your tone or your response, nor do I want to. You also cannot presume things that are written, you might want to just absorb what is written, not what you twist it to be.


(And believe me, I have as good a sense of humor as any. I just don't find you funny at all)

[Dick Schmidt]

(And believe me, I have as good a sense of humor as any. I just don't find you funny at all)


Trust me, you're not the first.


Dick

Who is frequently misunderstood.

[Tom]

Monty Banks?

[Figman]

$5,000 Program?


ex-trainer MURRAY KRAM's Trifecta Program

[takeout]

If you get what you pay for, that must’ve REALLY been a good one! :D

[Dave Schwartz]

Takeout,

The REAL question is always "IF." <G>



Dave

[BillW]

The only guarantee is that THEY got what you paid for :D .

Bill

[VetScratch]

SQ764,
Ok, What seperates HSH from the rest?
A few thoughts:
1) I have emailed Dave S and he's answered all of my questions with reasonable and concienscous answers
2) He also sent me cd's that explained how to use HSH
3) I have heard HSH is the best software out there.
4) How can you justify $500 for a piece of software??
5) How can you justify $125 per month on top of the software cost?Maybe patience separates HSH from the rest. Perhaps you should have answered #4 and #5 first. Without those answers, what did you expect to learn in steps #1 and #2 that would lead you to a decision?

[Dan]

Originally posted by shane
If Dave will permit it anyone can have my copy of HSH for $100.
Shane

Shane,

I tried to email you but couldn't. I'll buy your copy of HSH. I sent Dave an email about it.

Thanks,

Dan

[sq764]

Again, I didn't make any decision, that is why I posed these questions..

[JimG]

Originally posted by sq764
Ok, What seperates HSH from the rest?

A few thoughts:

4) How can you justify $500 for a piece of software??

5) How can you justify $125 per month on top of the software cost?


You cannot justify either one if you only play a couple of times a month or less. If you play more, the money is easily justifiable if the software fits how you like to play.

In order to determine if the software is a good fit for you, I suggest talking at length to the developer about what you are looking for and how the software does or does not do what you are looking for. If you do not know what your looking for, you'd be wise not to spend $500 on any software. Try some free software to get a better feel of what programs can do.

If your looking for software to cut down the handicapping time and provide some unique perspectives on a race, there are many programs out there that can fit the bill. However, "which is best" depends on the individual. If your looking for software to do all your handicapping and play the output in a mechanical fashion, I suggest not wasting money on any software.

As far as the data price, that has been debated many times on this forum and essentially it is the cost of doing business. Only you can determine if you are getting enough out of the software to justify the data.

Whatever you do SQ, best of luck. There are some good software packages out there and good people supporting them.

Jim

[Dick Schmidt]

Jim,

There you go, making me look bad. What do you mean by giving a thoughtful, polite answer. I mean, where's the sarcasm man? Keep it up and you'll wind up with a reputation as a nice guy who knows what he's talking about. I shudder at the thought.


Dick

Who never misses a chance to create a flap.

[Shacopate]

SQ's original question still remains unanswered.

What separates HSH from the rest?

[VetScratch]

Ford or Chevy, BMW or Mercedes, HSH or another...

How can anyone except SQ764 determine what is most suitable?

SQ764 should probably pick a price range and comparison shop... unless we can convince the Consumer Reports Lab to undertake a thorough and unbiased examination of handicapping products.

Oops, I forgot... Jaguar has already done that. Where are you Jag?

======
Sengbush is alive and well in Argentina

[Shacopate]

Vet,

If I go to a car lot and ask a BMW salesperson "why should I chose a "Beemer" over a Mercedes"?, they will tell me.

Why should software be any different?

It's a legitimate question, and once again, remains unanswered.

[VetScratch]

Shacopate,

If there's any doubt where I'm coming from, I would bet my first child on the proposition that SQ764 could make a profit using HSH. And Dave has responded via email and with a CD presentation to SQ764's inquiry.

At the same time, Dave (to his credit) has repeatedly stepped forward to state what most others won't: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

The point is that whatever the BMW salesmen might say about BMW is less important than what he doesn't know about the customer. Shouldn't we be asking SQ764 exactly what he wants instead of asking Dave to join the ranks of carnival spielers?

[Shacopate]

Vet,

I don't doubt Dave for an instant. He is a quality person, programmer, handicapper and I respect him.

But, the original question has yet to be answered.

[VetScratch]

How can it be aswered? It's a given that it's HSH and others aren't. Beyond that, what can be said without knowing exactly what SQ764 wants?

[Shacopate]

Vet,

His original question was "what separates HSH from the rest?"


Why is that so hard to comprehend?

[VetScratch]

OK... copyright laws!

He already has comprehensive information from HSH, and unless the Chinese are pirating handicapping software... I don't get it.

[Shacopate]

Still no answer.

[VetScratch]

Are you wanting testimonials?
Why?
Are we hiring a driver, buying car, or doing both?

[Shacopate]

This is laughable if you don't get it.

Sorry Vet.

[Dave Schwartz]

Boys and girls, please play nice. <G>

And, if you must yell at each other, popping this thread to the top and forcing me to accept valuable exposure for my software, could you please not waste it at 2 a.m.?

I do not believe that SQ wanted an answer from me. (Frankly, we've already done THAT conversation.)

I think he was either speaking rhetorically or looking for a response from some of our users. (I am lining up shills even as I write. <G>)


If anyone really wants an answer to that I will gladly provide it but as a general rule I try not to thump our products on this board.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[shane]

Buddy Love,

As long as i get $100 it's yours. Shane

[GR1@HTR]

Tom, whatever happend to Monty Banks???
:)

[VetScratch]

Dave,
I think he was either speaking rhetorically or looking for a response from some of our users. (I am lining up shills even as I write. <G> )If I ever have a child, I'll come back to this thread with a keen interest in what your shills have to say! :D :D

[andicap]

I'll take a shot at this thread -- and then duck.

SQ wants to know substantively -- WHY is this worth $500? He wants objective comments from users (as opposed to Dave's non-objective opinion) on why this software is worth the money. What exactly sets it apart
from say HTR which lots of people use and love?
If HTR is so good, why should he consider HSH?
He's not being snide or critical IMHO. He just wants to know -- gathering facts to make an informed opinion.

I have only cursory knowledge of HSH and so can't give an informed opinion.
From what I know, its more complicated to learn, but more comprehensive. A tougher program to get your hands around, but more flexible. People have told me you don't have to use ALL the elements, but decide what you want to focus on first and become expert on that.
HTR is much easier to use -- unless you want to use the Access DB stuff and don't know Access.
Specifically, tho, I can't say what HSH has that sets it apart and makes it worth $500. Maybe someone who uses the program can help SQ instead of continuing with this incredibly rude and inappropriate conversation.

I mean SQ just wants to know WHY he would pay a lot of money for a program. Dick answered (withi his usual irony) basically "You get what you pay for." But what is it that you pay for?

At least I think that's what SQ is looking for -- He might have framed the question in the best way, but I think his intentions were pure.

And so far no one has answered it.

But yes, whether he likes it depend on what he wants out of it. But that's for him to decide after he gathers facts. First he wants to know what it does.

[JimG]

Originally posted by andicap
And so far no one has answered it.

But yes, whether he likes it depend on what he wants out of it. But that's for him to decide after he gathers facts. First he wants to know what it does.

I certainly tried to answer it, since I own HSH...along with several other quality programs.

Really only SQ can answer that, IMO, based on what he is looking for in software and what he feels comfortable with. Like picking out a car, most of us look for certain things, then test-drive. While Dave does not offer a demo, he does offer numerous screen shots of what is in his program and is willing to talk about it on the phone (from what I hear for a long time<g>)

Anyhow, users of HSH can come online and say they win money using the software, it be true,and SQ buy it...then lose his a** with it. The reason...it does not fit HIS style of play or how he is comfortable approaching the races. Conversely, he may talk with Dave and review the screens and systems Dave has put online at his website and say...Wow! This is for me.

We are not robots and neither are the various pieces of software. Shilling for a particular software is not fair to people when it really comes down to the individual. I learned that after several years of using various commercial programs out there.


Jim

[Lefty]

What separates HSH from rest?
A: Diversity.
As you all may know I buy and use and experiment with many software prgms. Obviously there's something wrong with me. I just can't help myself.
If you are a pace handicapper, HSH can do. Want to build your own systems? HSH can do. DB handicapper? HSH can do.
Into neural networks? HSH can do. It's a big diverse prgm and the user can go in any direction he wants. I usually try to go into too many directions.
I admit i'm not a big winner with the prgm but I don't blame the prgm. To paraphrase Shakespeare the fault is more in me than my software.

[eclecticapper]

I like the way I can use different features in conjunction with each other; I can create a contender selection system, handicap the contenders using neural nets, then use a completely different approach to create an odds line. I've tried some, but not all, of the "rest" and I deliberately avoided badmouthing any other handicapping program in my earlier post. The way I use HSH has a lot of "me" in it. That's what I like most about it. My success or failure is just that; it's mine. I think HSH excels in providing the user the capability to handicap in a creative (and hopefully) profitable fashion. It's possible that only someone who has tried HSH and "the rest" can give a definitive answer, so I apologize if my posts have not been helpful.

[VetScratch]

Andi,

Isn't it doubtful that an "informed opinion" exists. The market is small but fragmented... a dozen or more sophisticated packages are positioned in the $1200 to $3,000+ cost range (measured by total cost of annual usage).

Compare this to Internet Explorer, Netscape, and Opera with hundreds of millions of users... but it is doubtful that 50 people in the world are qualified to render a truly informed opinion. My personal best guess is that no single individual is qualified for this task.

I have never even seen a good set of benchmarks and feature categories proposed or published that would enable handicapping software to be objectively reviewed.

[Dan]

Originally posted by shane
Buddy Love,

As long as i get $100 it's yours. Shane

Shane,

Dave said that he would handle the transaction. So, could you contact him and we will get everything going.

Thanks,

Dan

[CumberlandBluesHSH]

I can't really respond to "what separates HSH from the rest" cuz I haven't used much of "the rest". I can just say that I think it is well worth the price Dave is asking, and the data cost is really not an issue if you like to play more than a couple tracks and/or more than a couple times a month.

Others have touched on this - but basically whatever your preferred approach - HSH can help you in that approach. And if you're not sure what your preferred approach is - so long as you're reasonably sure you want a computer based approach, it can help you find your preferred approach. If you're willing to invest the time to make yourself a better player, HSH will help you make the most of the time you spend.

I did a bunch of poking around before settiling on HSH a couple years ago, I picked HSH because it seemed the most flexible of the options out there to me. I have not been disappointed.

[Dave Schwartz]

...and of course, I was not serious about shills.

Sincerely,
Jim G.

You see the impact Schmidt has on me? AT least I haven't started adding an ever-changing tag line. (My personal favorite from Dick was the one about being a very "Zen" person who would punch anyone in the mouth that said it wasn't true.)


Seriously, (which for some strange reason today seems difficult; must be the water) thanks to Keith and JimG for their excellent responses.

The short version of my oh-so-very-objective <G> answer is that we have tried (and are still trying) to create a program that lets you "have it your way."

Andy actually said it very well. Except the part of objectivity. Sure, any software developer wants to make a sale, but truly my goal is to match up a potential customer with HSH if it will be a good fit. If it is obviously not going to work, I really don't want the money.

Now, that does not mean I am ready for sainthood. (I am, but not for those reasons. <G>) It just means that I have seen this enough times to know that the worst advertising I can have is a guy out there saying HSH is to be avoided.

So, why do I ask for money at all? Two reasons. First, we need that extra revenue to stay in business and secondly, without a commitment on the part of the user almost everyone would give up on day three! If they are commited, and a $600 investment sure helps, they will stick around to day 5 or 6 when the light goes on.

The truth is that HSH is not that difficult to learn to get to the window. It is simply conceptually different. Most software takes you down a path. Select contenders, select pacelines, look at some kind of model, decide.

The good news about a program that takes you down a strict path is it is very easy to learn. You are up and running in a matter of hours or minutes. The bad news is that you quickly max out the program's capabilities. In HSH you can certainly select contenders and pacelines if you wish, but what if you are so sick of selecting pacelines that you never want to do it again? Now what do you do? Generally, you are forced to buy another program and the entire process is repeated.

So, the HSH paradigm is based upon "How do you want handicap?" That is the conceptual difference. And once people understand that the goal in HSH is to use only about 3% of the program then the user can start to work through which 3% is for them.

The real problem in learning HSH is that there is just so much there. If you insist on learning everything before getting started, you might NEVER play because we are constantly doing new development. With the head start the software has on a new user today and the ongoing upgrades (usually 4-5 per year), you might never catch up.

So, watch the beginning videos to get a feel for the program, then jump to the last few videos to see the most cutting edge stuff. Then go back and pick up a section or two that will show you how you to do something that "makes sense to you."

We recently lost a very valued user, one that has given us lots of support on the BBS for the reason that he had a need to learn it all. He decided to dedicate himself to learning everything before doing ANYTHING. Maybe I should say before COMMITING to any approach and giving it more than a short trial. He just burned himself out.

Using horse racing software is not supposed to be work. It is supposed to be a pleasure. I expect that he will return in the spring and hopefully he will choose to be focused on one or two approaches.

The entire HSH project is about being able to do it "your" way... but what is that? Some players come to us saying, "This is how I handicap now. How can I duplicate that in HSH?" That is one of the things I try to cover in the interview process.

Other players really have no idea where to begin. They just know they are tired of losing. They often come with an attitude of "just show me how to win." Well, that is where the BBS guys come in.

One of the reason that Buddy Love wants HSH is because he asked for (and received) access to the HSH Picks section of our BBS. We actually have a small group of players that play live several times per week. They talk about what they are doing in specific races, put up screen captures and in general foster an attitude of sharing.

It's not just putting up picks. It is part of an advanced learning process from a handful of guys that, to one degree or another, have made HSH work for them.


Sorry for being so long winded, but this is a subject that I am passionate about.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

PS: Vet Scratch - How is this for an answer? <G>

[VetScratch]

Dave,

I knew enough about your design strategy to feel safe when I earlier said, "I would bet my first child on the proposition that SQ764 could make a profit using HSH. And Dave has responded via email and with a CD presentation to SQ764's inquiry."

As usual your post was thoughtful, but I am sure your previous exchanges with SQ764 imparted much the same message via email and CD. He still asked, "What sets HSH apart?" And others kept pounding on the same question. I can't see that it has been answered yet, or ever will be... other vendors could certainly make a strong case for their products... but who knows enough about all of them to really judge merit?

For example, is your swiss-army-knife paradigm a virtue? Would you skin a bear with one? I fail to see how any approach much different than Lefty's will lead any user to a position of comfort. He settled on HSH after trying several products; others may land on a different square that suits them.

[Dick Schmidt]

Dave,

A clear and lucid explanation. I'm glad to see that I am having such a good impact on you. Keep up the good work!


Dick

Who has an impact on almost everyone near him.

[Niko]

I don't know that you'll ever get the perfect answer you're looking for because there isn't one.
There aren't any data or studies (that I know of) that says the top pick of this system is x% and ROI is x%. That the pace or speed ratings are better or worse. There are too many variables. How does it do in these types of races? How about if one contender is x points higher than the rest.............................I'd LOVE to see a few basic studies though.
The only thing you can really base your judgement on is what's written on web sites like this with open forums. There's a lot of people that like HSH, Equism, HTR etc. and there's people that don't like them. There are plenty of examples on each web site to show what you're getting but it's going to be up to you to decide. Stick with one or two and don't worry that you're missing out on some other program.
I wish it was as easy as checking out the specs on a car and giving it a test ride!
Decide first of all what you want out of the program, what you can afford, how much time you have to handicap, your goals when playing the horses etc. Then look to see what each program offers, the opinions of others who have used the program and what you feel comfortable with. Then make sure they have at least a 30 day money back guarantee so you can try it first.
Like Dave says you have to stick with a program for a while to see how it works and how it works best for you, and you usually can't do that with 10 racing cards or just 2 weeks use (but you can usually tell a really bad one over 50-100 cards). Otherusers will guide you along the rest of the way.
Just remember, when you win it's because of the program and partially you, when you lose it's because of you (or so they'll tell you). LOL
I hope this didn't sound like a lecture because I'm also frustrated not being able to see hard data comparing results or knowing anyone personally who uses some of the more expensive programs to make a lot of money.

[Dave Schwartz]

VS,

You said: "For example, is your swiss-army-knife paradigm a virtue? Would you skin a bear with one?"
+++++

Well, currently I am skinning a few coyotes. There are other people skinning bear as we speak. I have hopes to get my bear tag in the next few months. <G>

Seriously, the answer is clearly "yes."

WHat really makes the whole thing work for most of our users is not just that there are multiple handicapping "disciplines," if you will, but that they can be used interchangebly. As Keith, Cumberland and Jim touched upon, one can meld a pace approach with an odds line if they wish.

Just yesterday I did a tutorial with a "day 3" user that hadn't quite gotten it yet. He said, "Can you demonstrate a quick way to play right now?" and off we went. About 5 minutes later we had melded together a pace approach (where we selected no pacelines) with a contender process. Had he been a "day 10" player (i.e. a little farther into the videos) we would have spent an extra 15 minutes and turned our selection-based process into one that resulted in an odds line.

The point is, "How many products can do that?"

Now, of course someone will say "How can you prove that the odds line is a good one?" Well, that is certainly going to take some more work, especially as the proof in an odds line approach is in the performance. Hey, you can't do it all in 30 minutes. <G>

So, in closing, (and I really think we must) I'd say that what makes HSH worth the SIX-HUNDRED DOLLARS (not $500) is that it allows you to integrate multiple concepts and handicapping approaches together. I am not aware of any other product that lets you do that.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

Who is taking a class on tag line development.

[sq764]

Now see, THAT is a good answer..

A GREAT selling point on software, IMO, is that you will walk anyone through the steps it takes to understand and ultimately be in the position to profit with your software.

Most companies do not do that.

[VetScratch]

Dave,

Sounds great! If I ever have a baby, I hope you have a Head Start Program to complement your Adult Pablum Regimen. :) :)

[formula_2002]

What is all this chatter about..SHOW ME THE PICKS...
The results will tell it all....

Just post date, track,race numbers and horse pg# PRIOR to the race...and I'll let you know how much the software and data cost should be.


gezz

Joe M

[eclecticapper]

...during the trackchampion.com contests if you want to see posted picks from HSH users. The contests are "live" and players can change picks right up to post time. It's about as close as you can get to playing right alongside someone, plus you don't have to worry about checking the timestamp of a post to see if it's legit or not. Check the "Free contests and more free contests" thread in the Handicapping Theory section of the Horsestreet.com BBS if you want to know the contest IDs for some HSH participants (in contests, I use the name "eclectic").

[VetScratch]

Formula_2002,
What is all this chatter about..SHOW ME THE PICKS...
The results will tell it all....

Just post date, track, race numbers and horse pg# PRIOR to the race... and I'll let you know how much the software and data cost should be.You certainly cut right to the quick!

I have been mulling over potential names for a new type of Internet Wagering Account that will provide the scoring and showcasing functions that you have offered to undertake voluntarily. Maybe, "AutoJoe Account" should be the name, as a tribute to you (with your permission). :)

Legend has it that a pin prick to the quick killed a Triple Crown bid, and Internet showcase accounts can nullify bids to rule the handicapping market via advertising dollars and hyperbole. Any garage-startup entrepeneur will be able to effectively showcase the merit of his product.

[Dave Schwartz]

Formula,

You have seen it posted over and over that the software does not have a "standard" picks output. Whose picks should we use? Mine? DIck Schmidt's? Davey Mac's?

And if a user does post his picks, how many does he need to post before you have "statistical proof?" 1000 picks? 2000?

Sometime ago I created a poll asking if people would purchase software based upon the results of a proposed software contest. Here is the thread: http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6877

Considering that almost 50% of the poeple would not even consider purchasing why would anyone in their right mind invest the time neccessary to "prove" that something works by posting publicly?

And when he is finished with his picking, what guarantee do you have that his approach will work for you?

How about I submit my history? I played at Saratoga for a week in front of a bunch of PA members. Does that have merit? Perhaps some who were there might recall my performance. But what does it prove?

The question that anyone must ask is: "Can I make this software work for me?" The best answer you will likely get is "Maybe!"

Okay, so you commit to using the software and the question needs to change to: "How do I make this software work for me?"

Those are the people we are looking for. Now, if I can just get them looking for us as well. <G>


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Shacopate]

I don't own the program or any other. So my opinion is probably invalid, but from what I've read on this board I would say first and foremost OUTSTANDING SUPPORT.

By that, I mean Dave seems to have the ability and desire (based on the number of posts I've read about his lenghty phone conversations) to tailor the program to fit the style of the handicapper.

A huge plus.

[formula_2002]

Originally posted by Dave Schwartz
Formula,

Whose picks should we use? Mine? DIck Schmidt's? Davey Mac's?


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

Dave, in a word.. yours

I'll cut you some slack on the # of plays.

If you can show a win pool profit on 1000 plays (max win pool odds of 20-1) you will make me, and I'll sure anyone who the least inclination to question things, come a littel closer to accepting the value of your work.

However, if you can get more people to post , you'll increase the probabilty of anyone of you showing a profit in 1000 races.


Joe M

[formula_2002]

Originally posted by VetScratch
Formula_2002,
You certainly cut right to the quick!

I have been mulling over potential names for a new type of Internet Wagering Account that will provide the scoring and showcasing functions that you have offered to undertake voluntarily. Maybe, "AutoJoe Account" should be the name, as a tribute to you (with your permission). :)

Legend has it that a pin prick to the quick killed a Triple Crown bid, and Internet showcase accounts can nullify bids to rule the handicapping market via advertising dollars and hyperbole. Any garage-startup entrepeneur will be able to effectively showcase the merit of his product.

Vet., I'm not too certain what all of that means, but go with whatever you can get away with..;)

Joe M

[Dave Schwartz]

Formula,

I think you missed the point. It is simply not worth the effort to do this.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[formula_2002]

Originally posted by Dave Schwartz
Formula,

I think you missed the point. It is simply not worth the effort to do this.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

shame on you dave...

Joe M

[Tom]

Originally posted by GR1@HTR
Tom, whatever happend to Monty Banks???
:)

Too many clients lined up to post on hore boards anymore. No rentals of his program are available until 2005, I hear. :rolleyes:

[Tom]

I'll take a try at a serious answer, since I went through this process a couple of years ago. I was considering Allways, All-in-One, HTR, and HSH as a software purchase.
I went to the boards where these users post and lurked, eventually asked questions, made notes on thier answers, and then made list.
On the left side of the page, I described me. Thigs such as:

*Pace oriented.
*Sartin background.
*MPH user
*BRIS user.
*"into" quirin pace and speed figures
*Rely on models and profiles
*Not a daily player- play when I cna and want to
*Lazy when it comes to record keeping
*Can play many tracks via You Bet
*use databases for reaserch

On the right side of the page, I listed things the various programs offered me.
Each prgram was rated 1-9 on my impression of how well it fit my needs. Then I made mental notes as to how reliable the sellers were - puely subjective, but DAve Schwatrz and Ken Massa led the list. I knew both of them, had talked to them before, and had experience with both (Ken wroite MPH and I used Dave's pars years earlier).
The final selvetion of HTR was based on the fact that is was essential the evolution of the program I was alrady using, and Tomcat, a friend from Sartin days recommended it (one sharp cookie, Tom Cat). HSH was a close second, and the final nod to HTR was the learning curve needed-I could start out with HTR today, right where I was on a handicapping scale, and grow wtih the program. HSH would be new and I don't have a lot of time or patience anymore. HTR was familiar, HSH offered the unkown.
An explorer I was not at the time (although the idea of getting HSH and enjoying the learning curve still burns wtihin-I still visit Dave's site and read the posts).
But the idea was thatI matched the program to what I wanted, something that would fit my needs and be something I would enjoy using, the cost was not a real big concern, except the $14 a card price fro BRIS files for AllWays - too absurd to even consider-it ws the first one I threw out.
But the $100+ a month for data is not an issue-I make far more than that in profits, so it is just a cost of doing business.

Now, one of the things I used to pick HTR comes into play today-an hour or two befreo post time, AQU has cancelled, all my prep work is gone, and I need a track to play. In the next 30 minutes, I will find something running, learn more that enough about what is winning there, what paceline method is working best, how the track has been playing, I will be making confident bets all afternoon. I will know what trainers have been known to bring home longshots there over the last year, I will know what trainer/jock combos are hot right now, etc.


Side note: my investigation also led to Nathan's ESROI and I bought that and use it, although not the new version yet. It filled many of the needs I listed and the price was very right, plus it used data files I already buy, so I am happy to use two programs-both are well written and suit my type of handicapping.

[sq764]

Tom, excellent post!!

Great idea about listing your needs and fitting the software to it.

I guess I did that in a sense.

My list:

I am a 99% harness player, but have a heart for the t-breds

I am not an everyday player by any means.. Usually 2-3 days a week (or whenver my wife is out shopping)

I don't like databases, I don't want pedigree stats, jockey.trainer stats, biases, or anything of that nature (I know some angle players are having heart attacks right now)

Because I don’t play everyday or need or want a database, expensive data files or expensive monthly subscriptions are not for me.

I love dealing with fractions and ‘the overlooked’ speed ratings.

I am a spot player by trade, and hate chalk. Instead of playing a 10 race card, I would rather handicap 4 cards and pick 10 races that I feel I have an edge on, and that may offer a value play

Sooooo… With that being said, I am glad with the choice I made in using Validator 2.

No database, expensive data files, overload of info.. And (with the help of a fellow poster), the learning curve was short.

And lastly, I have caught a ton of $11-$20 horses in the past few weeks, which is the area I love to play (9/2 – 9/1+).

I am sure HSH works super for some people and that is fantastic. I guess I sort of answered my own question (after reading Tom’s post).

[lsbets]

Wish I was aorund earlier in the week when this thread started. I got HSH about 6 weeks ago, and it is great, I couldn't be happier. I think the program is pretty easy to use, but its reputation is intimidating. If you don't play enough to cover the data cost from winnings (hopefully) then the program is not worth it for you.

Dave gives great supprt to new users, and so does everyone on his board. What I find very interesting is that when people are on the board playing a track together, say MNR Mon and Tues this week, everyone has different picks. It depends on how you use the program. So to answer formula, it is not possible to post the program "picks" because there are none, and I will elaborate.

I use HSH to identify contenders. I use the database to search through races of the same conditions run at that track and find the top 3 factors influencing the winner. Then I give each horse a score and get a list of the top 3 or 4 contenders. I then use 2 different events to come up with the probablitites for each contender. I have found that the winner is in the top 4 about 90% of the time, but that does not make for a profit. If my contenders are all under 4-1 I pass the race. Why? Because over time if you are betting horses under 4-1 you will lose money, or that is my belief, so that is how I play. I'm not sure Dave would really be able to post his plays in a timely manner, because the odds do influence how he plays. To post a large number of "picks" he would have to do it way beforehand, and his "picks" would change as the odds do.

As you can tell, I think the term picks is a bad one, because HSH does not pick anything, at least not for me. It identifies contenders, and helps me to get probabilities for each contender. It is then up to me to implement a wagering and money management strategy that will ultimately determine profit or loss.

If you have looked at the program and play often enough to justify the cost, I would heartily say buy it. I love the program, and have found Dave to be a top notch person. When I posted about being mobilized to Iraq, he called me right away to talk. We had always had a customer/business relationship, always friendly, but I would say he is one of the good guys. I have been telling him that he needs to get HSH to carry PPs for the Baghdad Equestrian Club, and then I will really give him credit.

P.S. - When you think about it $129 a month for every track is not much at all.

[VetScratch]

Tom,

How many folks realistically pay BRIS $14 per card? Very few I would imagine unless they download less 8 cards per month.

Practically everyone pays BRIS $7 per card (at Gold Club rates) or even $5.60 per card (with BRISBet discount).

In any case, 1 to 7 racecards per month is hardly the target market for sophisticated handicapping software.

At the steepest discount, $5.60 per card would be roughly 30 cards per month before BRIS annual costs would exceed a $600 license fee plus $129/month for data.

For daily full-time players, $500 to $1000 should not be a major cost hurdle for a perpetual license and free upgrades. How many of the packages in this range offer this? I get the impression that some of them charge extra license fees whenever there is a major version release.

For any of the programs, I think whopping upgrade fees (above $100) are questionable since the revenue from data never stops if customers are retained.

[Red Knave]

Originally posted by sq764
Sooooo… With that being said, I am glad with the choice I made in using Validator 2.

No database, expensive data files, overload of info.. And (with the help of a fellow poster), the learning curve was short.


SQ-
I know that my copy of Val 2 cost more several years ago than HSH does today. I still use it because I know it well but HSH is fast replacing it as my handicapping software tool.
It seems like the monthly data charge is, understandably, the real kicker for you. You have to play more often or at a higher level (or both) to make this a sensible investment.
Like all handicapping software, it's up to the user to do the winning. (If you've read any Sartin material then you've read this before.)
I believe that individual psychology is the most important factor in actual winning, not computer software.
Perhaps the answer to the questions:
4) How can you justify $500 for a piece of software??
5) How can you justify $125 per month on top of the software cost?
may be that it's up to YOU to justify the cost/value and risk/reward for yourself. I don't think anyone else can do it for you.

(And yes, Dave, I know it's $600 and $129 <g>)

[sq764]

True...

I guess what I like about Val2 (this example is a little far out, but...).. If I wanted to take a year off, then pick up Val2 and play a race at any track, I know it would be as funadementally sound and effective as if I used it for 3 tracks, 7 days a week for an entire year.

I have never used HSH, but I would imagine you would get drastically different results in the 2 scenarios I posed above..

[JimG]

SQ,

Depends on how you use HSH about the results after taking a year off. If you depend upon the database features (which is certainly not required nor necessarily desired, IMO) then you would want to download whether you played or not.

If you decided to take a year off and used other parts of the program not database dependant, you could do that without any degredation of results.

Jim

[formula_2002]

Would any of the HSH users care to post their picks.
I post almost daily. Be curious how things compare..

Joe M

[headhawg]

And the lesson learned from this entire thread is use what you're comfortable with.

I just purchased EquiSim this week based on all the positives in this here forum and for Nathan's (and other users') customer support -- and the price was right for me!

It's just a tool like HSH and HTR. To use an example that Pizzolla mentioned in one of the tapes in TMM -- Give a brain surgeon and me the best scalpel in the world. Who do you want to see when you're about to go under? <g>

Brian

[formula_2002]

Originally posted by headhawg
-- Give a brain surgeon and me the best scalpel in the world. Who do you want to see when you're about to go under? <g>

Brian

If only things were that clear..

[lsbets]

Formula,

I have a ton of respect for the time and effort that you put into your endeavors, so do not take what I am about to say the wrong way.

While you post your picks every day, I and probably most of the other HSH users PLAY our picks every day. Wagering strategy and discipline are more important than picks. Any decent handicapper will get their fair share of winners, but it depends on what you do with them, which races you play and which ones you pass that determines a profit. I could not get on in the morning and post my plays for the day. I decide on my plays 2-3 minutes before post for each race, and quite often that play is pass.

[Red Knave]

Originally posted by formula_2002
If only things were that clear..
Exactly.
You keep asking for users to post their picks. What you would see is that everyone uses HSH to create his/her own method or 'system'. How does this clarify anything?
If you want to compare your picks against other handicappers, go to the windows!

[formula_2002]

Originally posted by lsbets
Formula,

I decide on my plays 2-3 minutes before post for each race, and quite often that play is pass.

Wow

I don't bet very often (last time was november, time before that was june), but when I do make a serious bet I know who it will be as soon as my computer program has been up dated with the scratches. The only other thing is need to know is if the system odds are less then the track odds.

What is it that desides it for you with 2-3 minuets to post ?

Sorry I can't encourage you guys into a demonstration.


Joe M

[eclecticapper]

...for info on where to find HSH users doing their thing. Several HSH users started participating in the trackchampion.com contests before I did (last night was my first one), and some have qualified for an invitational tournament which is being held this weekend and next weekend. I prefer to post selections where they can make me extra money, since money is the reason I handicap. One player's success or failure at the races isn't dependent on whether or not he/she can convince others of that success or failure. If it would be helpful, I can post the results of my selections for each contest. If trackchampion.com continues to hold two thoroughbred contests per week, then a year from now you should have a record of approx. 1000 of my selections. You can view the leaderboards for each contest on their website; my contest name is "eclectic". Last night at Delta Downs, I had 2 wins ($3.60 & $40.00) plus 4 seconds and a third from the 10 races of the contest. The total returns were $43.60 for win, $39.20 for place and $25.20 for show. Through the miracle of small sample size, show wagers would've resulted in a +26% return. The contest only counts win payoffs, so I didn't even make top 25. There's another contest tomorrow covering the day's races at Hollywood. Feel free to drop by the leaderboard to see how I'm doing (and let's hope you don't have to scroll ALL the way down to the bottom of the leaderboard to find me).

[formula_2002]

Originally posted by eclecticapper
[B . I prefer to post selections where they can make me extra money, since money is the reason I handicap. [/B]

A little confused .


Per trackchampion home page;

"FREE $1,500 Weekend Warrior Contest goes back to Hollywood - come play where the weather is warmer"

or
per "about us"

"1.There is no cost to enter the contest. The Track Champion Contest is open to active Track Champion customers with a valid Track Champion username and password. The contest does not involve real money or wagering, and is for entertainment purposes only."

are we talking real $ or make believe.


Thanks

Joe M

[VetScratch]

HSH Users:

I got curious enough to check the HSH price quote page.

Is this what HSH really costs, or do you get the instruction CDs and instruction CD updates when you license the program?HSH Software Program $613.00
HSH Instructional CDs 150.00
4 Instr. Update CDs 104.00Is the software license truly perpetual?

Is there ever a charge for updates (new versions) to the program, or is the updated software bundled with the instructional CD updates (i.e., $26 per upgrade level).

Since the terms and conditions aren't clearly presented, the proposition seems a little bit like lobster dinner ("Ask The Waiter"). What's the best set of terms any of you have negotiated?

If nothing is negotiable, why aren't the terms simply presented with the prices? I know you can ask by telephone, but then it is like "Ask The Waiter." This approach always bothers me because it doesn't make economic sense. For any vendor, it should be far more economical to spell out the terms and conditions on a web page rather than handle telephone inquiries.

I think most consumers are uncomfortable when they have to depend on verbal understandings. Innocent errors and misunderstandings are the weak link in verbal agreements... how or when does a user get a written set of terms and conditions for safekeeping?

BTW, visits to a few other vendor sites didn't reveal an approach much different than HSH. In general, it seems like handicapping software consumers are treated more casually than consumers in typical business deals where total costs often exceed $1000.

[Dave Schwartz]

VS,

All of it for one low price of only $599. Includes 12 videos on CDs and all updates.


Dave

[VetScratch]

Dave,

That was the best post in this thread! You can't beat a bundled one-time cost.

How about those of you who went with another brand? Was your deal as good as Dave's, or did you get nickel/dimed to death?

[lsbets]

Formula,

Here is why I do not decide who to play until shortly before post time. Odds change, and as odds change so does value, and value is where you make your money. I know who my contenders are long before post time, but I may or may nor play my top contender, or I may just pass the race. It depends on the odds, and at 2-3 minutes before post time, I feel comfotrable that they will not change signifigantly for the worse. Let me give you a simple example of what I mean by value and how I decide who to play:

I have 3 contenders in a race as follows:
Horse A 30% chance of winning 7/5 odds
Horse B 27% chance of winning 3/1 odds
Horse C 17% chance of winning 9/1 odds

There is one play in this race for me. Horse C. Over time that is the only play that offers value where I can make money. I will accept the fact that I will lose 7 out of 10 plays, because if I consistantly make the right plays I should make money. I personally cannot make money betting a 7/5 horse even though that is my top contender.

Now, in that example, lets assume that a bunch of money goes on Horse B at 5 minutes to post. Horse B's odds nosedive to 1/1, some money chases another horse, and Horse A's odds somehow go up to 9/2. My play has changed. Given the probability of Horse A winning the race, and the different odds, I will now play Horse A instead of C.

It is easy to identify contenders, and I will have contenders idenified for all of tomorrows races by 9 am unless my wife wakes up early, but I will not decide who to play until very close to post time. Odds matter, or at least to me they do. And they help determine who I play.

[hdcper]

Isbets,

Since you indicate your top 4 contenders win 90% of the races, just post your top four contenders you know by 9am.

That should indicate just how effective HSH provides a specific user like yourself with true contenders!!!

Hdcper

[lsbets]

Hdcper,

Go to the HSH bulletin board and read the posts that users put up, then you will see examples from more than one user. Personally I am very confident in my choices, thats why I bet them, but given that this thread is about software that I did not write and do not make my living off of, I do not wish to base someone else's reputaion on my performance on any given day. If I bought the software and thought it was crap I would say so. I bought it and think it is great, and I am saying so. Formula asked me why I decide who to play so close to post time, and I responded in what I hoped was an insightful manner. Obviously you disagree.

[JimG]

Originally posted by lsbets
Hdcper,

If I bought the software and thought it was crap I would say so. I bought it and think it is great, and I am saying so.

Very few people, including me, would publicly say that commercial software was "crap", especially if the developer was on this board. And that is understandable. People are trying to make a living. I think it is great you are doing well with HSH. But when you say you are getting contenders in the top 4 90% of the time, you can expect to have a statement like that challenged.

Jim

[sq764]

JimG, you said:

"Very few people, including me, would publicly say that commercial software was "crap"



Check the thread on the Zambuto Software... I think your theory is out the window :-)

[JimG]

Originally posted by sq764
JimG, you said:

"Very few people, including me, would publicly say that commercial software was "crap"



Check the thread on the Zambuto Software... I think your theory is out the window :-)

sq764,

You got me there...although I think most of the comments were directed at the support. Your point is well taken. Also it appears "nucsub", the software developer, is no longer participating on this board.

Given the comprehensiveness of HSH, HTR, Equisim, Capper, I think it would be unfair to say that the software is crap. While it may not be a good fit for the individual, it is apparent that they were not created in a day.

By the way, I am unaware of Validator2. Must have been created before I got back into horse racing..pre-1995.

Jim

[sq764]

Not sure when it was created either.. I was turned on to it by a friend and was familiarized with it by a fellow poster..

[eclecticapper]

The contest selections are just that, contest selections. I didn't mean to imply that the leaderboard represents actual wagers; that may have simply been poor communication on my part. I did bet most of the Delta card (I didn't bet the $3.60 winner and I didn't bet the 3rd since the field consisted entirely of first-time starters). The issue with selections posted anywhere is that they don't reflect the betting decision part of the handicapping process. Using the Delta card as an example, the key to the whole card (at least re: the selections I posted) is the 1 horse in race 7. Suppose three people make exactly the same selections for the Delta card. One person passes any race where the selection is 15/1 or higher. One person bets cold exactas only, and in race 7 uses the selection with the horse that happened to finish last. One person bets each selection, including the 1 horse in race 7, in equal amounts to win & place. The exact same selections produce three radically different outcomes.
Maybe the contest leaderboard idea isn't particularly helpful; after all, anyone who has participated in one-day, 10 race contests knows there's a certain need to "go for broke". I just offered it as a suggestion as to where one might go to get some idea of how HSH users are doing. It's possible that individuals do well in contests and poorly in real life. Even if you could establish with 100% certainty that an individual showed a profit betting horses this year, that's no guarantee the same individual will show a profit next year. One thousand picks which collectively show a profit wouldn't guarantee the next thousand would show a similar profit. The same would be true if the picks resulted in a loss.
My original purpose for contributing to this thread was to give some idea why I find HSH useful; basically, it's the antithesis of a "black box". Some people think that's great, some don't. I don't know that my posts have been the least bit helpful, but I tried.

[Lefty]

Sq, I don't think the people on Zambuto thread is saying his software is crap; but that the customer service is. At least that's what i'm saying. I can't get his software(after buying latest update)to even come up on either of 2 computers. Zambuto, that is.

[MarylandPaul@HSH]

Originally posted by VetScratch

For example, is your swiss-army-knife paradigm a virtue? Would you skin a bear with one? I fail to see how any approach much different than Lefty's will lead any user to a position of comfort. He settled on HSH after trying several products; others may land on a different square that suits them.

I'm not sure that "swiss army knife" is an accurate description of HSH. That would imply that it's a collection of small, unrelated tools. A better description would be a collection of separate modules, many of which have paths to each other. I can sift my database for positive or negative trends, and feed that information to an odds line. I can build a system, using either hard rules or impact values, test it against a subset of races, or even grab the races in which the system found a play, and filter those for further study. If I want to use pacelines, I can build separate automatic paceline systems for each type of race, or select manually. I can build data sets for any subset of races, and use the AI module (the "ants") to find horses which best match what wins in that subset. There's a new AI module in beta now; I'll let Dave talk about that when he's ready.

Now for a personal peeve, not directed at any single person. Asking a software vendor, or his users, to post picks has got to be the absolute dumbest request to make. You want to get the software that's best for you? Talk to the guy writing it....if his philosophy matches yours, he seems dedicated to ongoing improvement, and he'll listen to your ideas, it's an easy call. You're not just buying code. you're buying *him* (or her). HSH has evolved substantially from the time I bought it 1.5 years ago.

MP
unpaid shill

:Note to Dave: thread successfully bumped to the top :D

[hurrikane]

Well, after a nice little rest and refreshing break from here I am back. It amazes me that the same friggin people are sprewing the same friggin nonsense.

First let me say, I don't use HSH. The reason I don't is because of the price. That is not to say that it is not worth every dime of the 600 and 129 download.
I just use something else I am happy with and don't see a reason for the change.

If I were to change I would likely use HSH or Equism..or perhaps something I develope myself.

Now, just to get back in the swing of things.

you got one guy here that bets 2 time a year for probably 2 dollars a bet telling people that bet thousands every month to prove what they do works. I say F em!!!!!!!!! Not that we need the 2 dollars twice a year but every dollar in the win pool helps. Don't tell him a damn thing until he climbs down off his cloud.

now as for software. Every once in a while this board pops up with a huge battle over software and how can it pick winners and you can't win with software and why is this software better than that. In the end it is not the software that makes the decision to place the bet. It is you..and no piece of software is going to make you a winner if you can't step to the window and lay your money where your mouth is. End of story.

The same people who attack these software users/developers are the same ones that go to the track, buy a DRF, sit down with their paper and pencil and start working the races. This is all perfectly acceptable behavior...but put that data in a computer and have the computer help with the computations and present the data the way you want instead of the way DRF or BRIS says it will be and suddenly you are an idiot.

As for why Dave charges $600 for software and 129.00 for downloads. Because people will pay for it. If they didnt' he would drop his prices or be out of business. That being the case I would say it has value. Dave has been around for a long time. He has a viable business. What other proof do you need of the value of the software. I don't think I have seen HSH slammed on this board or anywhere else for that matter. You can't say that about a lot of software out there.

If you play every day you will spend over $1800 a yr on the DRF..for only 5 or 6 tracks. And that's for bad data, poor presentation, and ink all over your hands. Dave's download is a little more than 1500 a year for every track in the US.

I can only say if you don't play every day and the cost doesn't make sense don't do it....it's that easy.

But again..please..keep playing...I need all the money I can get in the win pool.... :D

[JimG]

Gee, it feels like a hurrikane just blew threw this thread. Welcome back!


Jim

[VetScratch]

Now for a personal peeve, not directed at any single person. Asking a software vendor, or his users, to post picks has got to be the absolute dumbest request to make. You want to get the software that's best for you? Talk to the guy writing it....if his philosophy matches yours, he seems dedicated to ongoing improvement, and he'll listen to your ideas, it's an easy call. You're not just buying code. you're buying *him* (or her). HSH has evolved substantially from the time I bought it 1.5 years ago.While touchy-feely individuals may flock or interact productively in some endeavors, professional software development is seldom pursued successfully in this fashion.

Not all users or developers are inclined to even want the kind of relationship you describe. Furthermore, for every new and worthwhile contribution verbalized by users, many more personal interactions are simply non-productive for the developer (and for the user).

A carefully thought out written inquiry or suggestion is much more likely to help hands-on developers deliver the best possible product. Professional developers really appreciate good ideas, problem feedback, error reports, and criticism. However, too many non-productive phone chats just get in the way of progress.

Oops... gotta go, that must be Bill calling back from Redmond. :)

[MarylandPaul@HSH]

Originally posted by VetScratch
While touchy-feely individuals may flock or interact productively in some endeavors, professional software development is seldom pursued successfully in this fashion.
I agree if you're talking about Microsoft, Adobe, or Lotus. Handicapping software is a tiny niche in comparison, but no less competitive. Big development houses compete with features, interaction with users isn't practical; but handicapping software developers must be open to intelligent user input. They're competing for a very small pie.

Sure, some users desire no interaction, which is fine, but knowing that option is available helps the comfort level. There is more of an emotional attachment to the software when you're reaching in your pocket and making decisions based on it's output. I don't remember ever betting $50 on whether Photoshop would successfully remove the red-eye from my vacation pictures.

Say hello to Bill for me....tell him I forwarded his email, but never got my $1000. :confused:

[JustMissed]

Originally posted by hurrikane@HTR
If you play every day you will spend over $1800 a yr on the DRF..for only 5 or 6 tracks. And that's for bad data, poor presentation, and ink all over your hands. Dave's download is a little more than 1500 a year for every track in the US.

I can only say if you don't play every day and the cost doesn't make sense don't do it....it's that easy.

But again..please..keep playing...I need all the money I can get in the win pool.... :D

Hurrikane, Why do you want to say such nice things about DS, which I agree with, and then you have to take a swipe at pen and paper cappers?

Did you ever see the movie A BEAUTIFUL MIND, a fictional biography about Dr. John F. Nash, the 1994 Nobel Prize winner in mathematics for his pioneering work "game theory".

Well, you remember the ole doc had the ability to see "code' & "patterns" that were hidden in written newspapers, magazines articles, etc. . Well, of course Doc Nash had a mental illness but besides that he was a brilliant man with a near photographic memory.

I'll let you in on a little secret. Pen and paper handicappers have the ability to see "hidden patterns" in their racing forms that are not apparent to the fellows that don't have a set of pp's in their hand which includes 7-10 or more running lines in cronological order. I'm not saying just DRF but any pp such as TSN's Ultimate PP's w/Quick Play Comments, Bris $1 files or even the track program.

If you want a confirmation of this phenominum, next time you're at the track or OTC, just watch the good pen & paper players watch the race. They are constantly, and I mean constantly, looking back and forth between the track and their form. What the heck do you think they are doing? They are constantly reprograming their computer(their beautiful mind).

Hey, if it's working for you, keep using it til it quits working.

JustMissed
;)

[Derek2U]

Like most people predictive software proggys are over-inflated.
Also, 2 my near-total astonishment, I agree with a message
from VetScratch: a good program is derived from & updated by a real brain; and, almost lastly, it is very easy to create a real
& solid program that can crank out from 32-37% winners with
a marginal profit of between 5-9% --- but the real issue is NOT
this meager return: Then, the issue is to take those outcomes
and, by tweaking TWO issues, INCREASE that profit by 10-12%
more. (I think that ALL predictive systems have their CEILINGS:
it seems that horse racing systems CANNOT exceed 40% and
still return a +ROI)

[sq764]

JimG, it has come across that I think HSH is overpriced and the data is as well, or Dave is an idiot or his software is crap.. Quite the contrary..

I have never seen or used HSH, but have heard its a great program for those who have the time to 'learn' it.. And as many posters have pointed out, for an everyday player, the data probably works out..

To be honest, I threw the question out there to see what kind of selling points would be attributed to HSH. And if I had never heard of HSH, I would be absolutely unimpressed with the response from it's owner.. From the little I have exchanged with Dave, he seems like a bright, sharp man, and I am sure he have developed a super product.

I just think (whether it's arrogance, complacency, confidence), some vendors are so in love with their product that it becomes laughable when someone challenges it. I think it's great to be so confident that your software is the best out there, but it's also important to convey WHY it is.. If you cannot, I think you lost your edge.

Just one man's opinion..

[cj]

Derek,

I would hardly call 5-9% a meager return considering you can re-invest that same money hundreds of times a day. If there was honestly a program that picked 32-37% winners and returned a "meager" 5-9% return, I would pay any price the program asked. How could you not? Not only that, I would quit my job immediately.

[COUGAR]

I agree with JustMissed. If anyone has paid attention...(OH HUMMM)... to any of my posts, it is obvious that i have been away from racing for some time and have recently been getting more involved(dabbling off and on the last year or so) bought many programs(its nice to see different peoples interworking.. it helps one grow..your always learning something... a new angle here and there..... MY successfull days, some years back with the horses was strictly DRF pen in hand that was it... Long hours the night before getting ready....yada yada yada..... The last year has been very difficult... TRYING to stamp out that magical formula in the computer age of today... trying to get back to that full time professional level. I just realized something recently, and how i have fruitlessly wasted some time in the wrong areas. But a learning experance. In the end it is now my firm conviction that the computers can only do so much... Sure it can crunch the numbers whitch frees the handicapper alot of the grunt work, but the final touches of perfection can ONLY be done with that keen eye.... pen in hand scrutinizing the secrects of the pps missing link. A computer cannot be programmed to do that... The best of both worlds... Thats the ticket... Just one mans opinion...

[Derek2U]

1st COUGAR I agree with you MOSTLY. But what you are saying
or wanting is a puter program that presents some data & can
also be your "companion capper." For EX: suppose that after
ALL the data is downloaded; there are NO scratches; the program ranks the contenders, but After that ranking, reminds
YOU of salient facts: It "Says" .... #6 has no positional speed;
#4 ditto plus an outside post; #1 has class but appears to be
a Turf horse ; #2 has been absent, yet is the controlling speed.
Would you think such a give & take is more suitable 2 U? Also,
just suppose you think #6 should be tossed out. Would you
then like that option? Then see how it ranks the field w/#6 out?
2nd CJ .... 5-9% profit is Very Achievable, but CANNOT be
had unless guided by an active brain watching over the program.
Then, like I said, you? (One) can make that into a 11-19%.
In NY & CAL, these stats are Very Possible, but the real deciding
factor is first dump the ~4 of 10 races that are TABOO because
Bad Odds ; Too many unknowns; Weird Tote Action; Too many
close competitive horses. With ~6 of 10 you can select 1 horse
~~32-37% winners. Amounts Bet must be watched. After some
300 such bets these stats should be there.

[COUGAR]

Derek2U..

Yes.. That is kind of what i am trying to accomplish. Right now i am using 2 programs to get the numbers and finishing up with the DRF, pen in hand, checking the computers figs. I dont agree with any programs pace shapes. I usually label differently than the computers all pace line method. You need to adjust recent to past and factor the fractional times in to get a clear picture, no two races are the same. The time factor is consumming. One or two tracks at once is all i can handle anymore. One program.. that could alert the handicapper to a VAST scope of numerous situational descrepancies( sorry i know thats spelled wrong) would be the perfect program... But then agan one would still need to inspect that fine line inbetween the DRF PP's....

[hurrikane]

Hey Just.....

Perhaps I was a little cloudy in all that storm.

I have nothing against the pen and paper folks. I can assure you when they walk through the track I don't stare at them the way they stare at me carrying a laptop. And they don't hear me say nobody with a computer sits here.

My complaint are with the narrow minded people who can't accept change...really has nothing to do with pencil and paper.

[JustMissed]

Thanks for your reply.

JustMissed
:)

[Lefty]

hurrikane, for myself, it certainly wasn't my take on your orig. post that you were denigrating "pencil+paper cappers" in any way and was surprised that anyone came to that conclusion.
A guy rushed up to me one day and said, "can your computer get you a horse such as this?" He showed me a ticket on a fav in the next race at one of trks.
I laughed and said, "I use this thing just so I can avoid a horse such as that."
I was right, his fav was false and a nice 5-1 shot won.

[CapperLou]

Man, where have you been? Welcome back!!

It's funny--I posted a couple of longshots last thursday--never posted selections before--one ran 2nd other won at 28.00.

My point there is that on that day a member here who posts dozens of races every week as you mentioned earlier said that the last time he/she made a wager was in May 2003. I was shocked!!! What a joke--must just be a computer nerd who thinks he will find the way to making "millions" at the track.
An absolute wannabe--IMHO.

Now then, nice to see you back--glad your htr is going well and everyone here should know that each of the best programs works well for different types of players. When I bring my laptop to Calder some days---everybody stares at it like it was a magic box!!! Well, for me it is most of the time.

I do not use HSH, but I know it is one of the top programs out there for the serious player--IMO the others are TB5, HTR, Equisim, & RaceComm.

The other part of the above equation is the handicapper being able to use these programs to match what he sees in the form or other notes about a horse from past races etc. & PROPER MONEY Management--cause without this--you ain't going anywhere!!

All the best,

CapperLou

P.S. Hurricane--when are you coming to Florida???

[hurrikane]

Hell, Lou,

wish I were coming today...suppose to be snowing by Sat.

Planning a trip the week after christmas..be there for 2 weeks unless the army finds out where I am. lol

[CapperLou]

I sent you an email--hope to see you when you are in south florida. Between us, we'll "knock em dead"!!!!!

CapperLou

[Bob Allen]

lsbets,

You made the undocumented and unverified statement based on your handicapping. Hdcper challenged you to just post your picks by 9 a.m. Just the picks- not the winner. I've been around this board since PA had about 10% of the members he does now. My User ID has changed and I've seen some wild posts - yours just might top the list.

It is not up to Dave to post anything. You were the hotshot making the post. Back it up!!!

I am herein reissuing Hdcper's challenge. You have one flagrantly fatal flaw in your post which if you understood would have kept you from making it in the first place.

I've used HSH, still have it along with all e-mail exchanges, posts on the board and transcripts of telecons. What I'm saying is I could blow your whole post from hell to highwater. My posts from Summer '02 are on the HSH board unless Dave has deleted them from embarrassment. So many people on this board called him a genius that he actually started believing it himself. Do a search and you might find some interesting information.

Originally posted by lsbets
Dave gives great supprt to new users, and so does everyone on his board.
I have found that the winner is in the top 4 about 90% of the time, but that does not make for a profit.

Bob

[Dave Schwartz]

Bob Allen is one of those (thankfully) rare examples that one cannot please all the customers all the time.

He is a truly dissatisfied HSH customer. Just cannot be helped.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[lsbets]

Bob,

I will repeat what I said once again, given the confrontational nature of these boards, I am not going to post my contenders and have someone make their decision to purchase Dave's software based on how I do on any given day.

As far as the about 90% thing goes, I personally don't think that is a big deal. I would think that almost everyone on this board if asked "What 4 horses have a chance to win this race?" would be right ABOUT 90% of the time. I wish I had not said it, but I do believe it.

Here's what I am willing to do for you Bob. I notice that your location says near lonestar. Well, today is my last day of work until my Army vacation, and I plan on being at the Jockey Club Wed thru Fri until I leave. I would be more than happy to meet you up there, show you how I use the program, and you can evaluate my contender selection process live and in person. I'll even buy you a beer. I'll be in NJ around X-Mas, but down here in Texas until then, and I go on active duty again Jan 5th. Just let me know when you would like to go.

Jeff

[cj]

The 90% thing is a stretch...the public cannot even approach this among the top 4, assuming you mean every race. Cherry picking sure, but not every race.

[lsbets]

CJ,

I mean cherry picking. When I looked at the races for today, for AQU, HAW, LRL, GG, and HOL I only had 14 races where I actually selected contenders.

As an aside, I consider most of the people on this board to be much better than the public, that is why I think most of the people here can get about 90%.

Jeff

[Bob Allen]

All,

I have NEVER said anything bad about HSH to anyone, the program that is. Many people e-mailing me can verify that. That is the one fatal flaw in the following post.

Veracity, like cornflakes, seems to be a commodity one can purchase at any Wal-Mart.

However, my experience shows that probity disappears as the dollar amounts increase.

My point has been proved. Thank you gentlemen.

Bob

Originally posted by Dave Schwartz
Bob Allen is one of those (thankfully) rare examples that one cannot please all the customers all the time.

He is a truly dissatisfied HSH customer. Just cannot be helped.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[lsbets]

Bob, does that mean you do not want to take me up on my offer?

[JimG]

Originally posted by cjmilkowski
The 90% thing is a stretch...the public cannot even approach this among the top 4, assuming you mean every race. Cherry picking sure, but not every race.

The only way i could cherry pick it (90%) is with fields of 5 or less. Although I have not added it up lately I would guess my percentage overall would be around 70% on all races. That percentage would not change much for me if I was cappin from the racing form, HSH, Equsim, HTR, or some combo thereof.

Jim

[cj]

I don't care how good the capper, that 90% is unrealistic unless its SoCal with all the short fields.

[Dave Schwartz]

CJ,


I could be wrong, but I think that the 90% he was referring to was his "base" contenders, which to us represent 1/2 the field plus 1 horse.

When he cut the contenders down to "prime" the percentage is (naturally) reduced, as illustrated by the example he gave. (below)

+++++++++
I have 3 contenders in a race as follows:
Horse A 30% chance of winning 7/5 odds
Horse B 27% chance of winning 3/1 odds
Horse C 17% chance of winning 9/1 odds
+++++++

Those three contenders total 74% and that is quite realistic for 3 contenders in a 7-horse field.

I also agree that nobody over a significant sample of races is going to get 90% winners in 3 contenders per race (small field) or 4 contenders in a larger field.

In HSH there is a place to set your "expected" contender percentage, which is based upon 1/2field+1 (i.e. 6 contenders in a 10-horse field). Then the system scales it down based upon how many actual contenders you perceive.

Again, I don't mean to put words in LSBets mouth, but personally I think he said it very well... except for this misudnerstanding over the 90% thing. ANd, btw, he has only been using HSH for a couple of months. It is possible (of course) that his experience has truly been 90% winners in HIS sample. I would doubt that he could maintain that pace (sorry Jeff). But one can hope. <G>


Dave

[cj]

Dave,

I wasn't knocking your product, I hope you didn't take it that way. He said the winner is in his top 4 90% of the time...I don't think anyone could do that with any method, period. As you point out though, the percentage doesn't mean much without looking at field size. I will say this...anyone who can get the winner 90% of the time using half the field as contenders would be an incredible handicapper.

[VetScratch]

Dave,

What's with the default contender parameter of 1/2-field-size + 1?

Why don't you simply let users set an aggregate probability for contenders, so that the number of contenders tends to vary by the distribution of merit within the race instead of the size of field?

Whether by default handicapping, or in accordance with user preferences, the number of contenders would build towards the probability target.

By setting such a parameter to 90%, your users might get close to 90% winners from contenders. If this approach flops, you could spend more time re-working the software instead of re-working the meaning of posts from users like Bob Allen and Lsbets.

:) :) :) :)

[GameTheory]

Yeah, Dave, why didn't you think of that instead of imposing this ridiculous 1/2 field + 1 system with absolutely no forethought or testing of any kind on your part? Why I bet your whole program is just a collection of untested and unthought ideas hastily thrown together in a shameless attempt to fleece the public with your outrageous prices and demands that people buy undocumentated and mysterious data at additional cost! You suck, Dave!
;)

[JustMissed]

Last night at Mountaineer, the winners of the first 5 races came out of the top three TSN Prime Power fig horses.

I used to keep up with the ratio of winners/prime power ratings but quit after I was convinced of effectivness.

If you throw out the unplayable races, I would guess any good software program would put you on 4 contenders that would include the win horse a very high percentage of the time.

The real kicker for me is to get the right horse in the show slot for the trifecta. I lost 3 trifectas Monday night in the show slot. Two races I have four horses on the bottom and the other one I had five horses and still couldn't cash a ticket. Being Scottish, it is very difficult for me to hit the ALL button. The payoffs for those three tri's totaled over $1,000.

See ya,

JustMissed

P.S. Hey Dave, does your program recommend the bets for the user?

[VetScratch]

Game Theory,

Haven't seen you here (with frequency) in a while... I figured you were taking time off and living large until the new year begins.

How's this for an impersonation?

"I could be wrong, but I think Game Theory meant to be ironic...."

Any guesses?

BTW, your post was marvelous... it pinned the needle against 100% on my Irony Meter... first time ever. :)

[GameTheory]

I am no longer needed here since you are here to correct all the wrong-thinking and misguided participants in this forum.

Hope I don't damage your meter...

[JustMissed]

My last post got me curious so I am showing last nights results from the Mountain:

R1 #9 1st Prime Power paid 4.20

R2 #4 2nd Prime Power paid 3.60

R3 #2 1st Prime Power paid 4.40

R4 #7 1st Prime Power paid 7.00

R5 #3 1st Prime Power paid 6.20

R6 #4 6th Prime Power paid 25.20(ouch)

R7 #8 3rd Prime Power paid 26.40(way to go prime power)

R8 #8 4th Prime Power paid 36.40(way to go prime power)

R9 #4 4th Prime Power paid 11.00

R10#4 1st Prime Power paid 6.60

Of course this is a small sample but I have been using TSN Ultimate PP's w/Quick Play Comments for over a year and the prime power figures work pretty good. Tuesday night was foggy and muddy as it gets but the prime power top four horses won 9 out of 10 races. Not too shabby huh.

I won't comment any further except to say that if your current software isn't getting you the top 4 contenders that win 70-80% of the time then you probably got a filter or switch or something set wrong and probably need a checkup.

JustMissed
:)

[Dave Schwartz]

GT,

LOL - Classic VS. She thinks YOU were insulting.

Have a good day.

Dave

[Dave Schwartz]

JM,

You asked: "Hey Dave, does your program recommend the bets for the user?"

I am not sure if you mean (1)"Does HSH suggest one set of bets to all users?" or (2)"Will HSH suggest bets based upon the user's approach?"

(1) No.

(2) Yes or no, depending upon your viewpoint. No, HSH does not 'suggest bets' in the truest form. In other words, HSH does not say, "Bet #4."

However, IF one chooses the "Handicapping Object" approach(which is probably the most often used approach these days) where from 1-4 factors are chosen to create probabilities, then HSH creates an output that all but screams to be bet. (i.e. #4 has a 20% probability and is 12/1 - is the #4 "screaming bet me?")

It also says here are the profitable exactas - based upon such things as meeting a minimum profitability or "DV" (dollar value) as we call it.

Dave

[VetScratch]

Game Theory,

I have always felt that your participation is meaningful whether we agree or disagree. You are never timid, and are not afraid to walk alone if others choose the path more frequently travelled.

Sometimes the mutual backscratching gets louder than a swarm of locusts... but you are definitely not misguided or extraneous in my book... because you don't suck up to anyone, and you don't court flattery.

So... ignoring these virtues, and regardless of the issue, you only suck when you are right and I am wrong <g>.

[JustMissed]

Thanks Dave for your reply.

What I had in mind was something similiar to the Florida Handicapper, this is a tip sheet put out for Calder/Gulfstream. I don't play those track that often so I will buy their sheet to supplement my own handicapping.

Anyway, they give you the contenders and then they recommend a bet, for example: 2 units to win; 4 unit exacta a/bcd & 2 unit exacta bcd/a.

For some races they might not play the win but recommend a 10 unit trifecta a/bc/all, something like that.

I could be wrong but I think it is real people putting out that sheet and it is not just computer generated. The Florida Handicapper will often recommend to pass a race which I have never seen done with a computer generated sheet.

I know that betting is a personal decision and some say is more of an art than a learned skill. I certainly would not disagree with that other than to say I think you could use the software to give you some betting options that you might not think of in the heat of the battle.

I mean really, how many times have your torn up a $48 trifecta ticket when you could have more easily hit and cashed a $50 exacta ticket and won about as much money as the tri.

JustMissed
:)

[Dave Schwartz]

JM,

So you DID mean it literally.

To clarify, there is no single HSH output. No single HSH system. I daresay that 20 different people could be playing ALMOST the same syatem and get drastically different results. (Just like 20 people using "pace handicapping," a calculator and a pencil.


Dave

[JustMissed]

Thanks Dave, I think I got it now.

I thought your program was a black box program but it appears that it is more of a user defined program.

Thanks,

JustMissed

[karlskorner]

Florida Handicapper is handicapped by Toby Callet, all done by hand, no computer involved, He has been down here from Philly since late 70's. Excellent on 2 year olds and breeding. I don't know if Richie da Beard (old Belmont/Agu tout sheet seller) helps him, they do the hand timing for Equibase. His sheet sells very well at GP.

[JustMissed]

Karl, Thanks for the info on the Florida Handicapper.

You can find "how to pick the winner" stuff on every corner but I always jump at the chance to see how the pros construct their bets.

Wish I could spend a week with Steve Davidowitz or Art Canales.

Merry Christmas to you,

JustMissed
:)

[karlskorner]

Toby does a 2 year old analysis at the CRC site under selections along with a "horses to watch" thing thats pretty good. You might want to check it out from tomorrow till 1/2/04. I am not sure he will have the same for GP. You have to appreciate that he is watching from the press box, every race with 10x50's and has a good handle on whats going on. I believe he sees more than the chart callers. Good friend.

[Suff]

Originally posted by karlskorner
. Good friend.

When he has bad day?.. do you wait oustide the Press Box and Kick Him in the BALLS when he comes out? Like you did to the 30+ Players who had a Bad day here on Breeders cup. You aint got no good friend nowhere.

[GR1@HTR]

Now that was pretty funny Suff

[karlskorner]

I don't have to wait outside the Press box, I can take the elevator up to the 6th floor and walk in anytime I want and don't have to buy somebody lunch to get there. You don't buy friends, you make them.

[Suff]

yabba dabba babble doo, put in F in front of a U.

[Tom]

Well, this one went down the ole crapper pretty fast.
Glen, ask that cat of yours to pull the chain! :D

[PaceAdvantage]

You can't go wrong with most of the PROFESSIONALLY produced products out there. HSH, HTR and EquiSim are the most used programs on this forum, I believe, and I've tried all three. I also have my own program that I've written. Any of the three (as well as my own) will do the job for you, IF YOU KNOW HOW TO BET.

I've learned over the last five months that maybe I have been focusing my attention the wrong way these past 15 or so years when it comes to wagering on horses. I've found that maybe trying to find which is the best horse to bet is the WRONG priority. I've found that trying to find which RACE to BET is PARAMOUNT, and which TRACK to bet is second in line.

Which horse? Well, that is perhaps the EASIEST and least stressful part of the equation, and can be achieved using any of the three programs mentioned above.

I guess some folks might call this money management, but I believe it is more comprehensive than that, but paradoxically, quite simple at the same time.

If it sounds like I'm talking in riddles, then perhaps I am....just wanted to get some stuff off my chest....

[Rwahi1]

Couple of years ago I stumble upon this site and read about Hsh and other software's.......Picked Hsh.......Liked it.....Bought it and being very happy with it ever since.
I am glad it is expensive so every tom ..Dick and Harry cannot buy it. When you pee brain people loose money at the races....I win (ha! ha!) with Hsh!, because I am betting against your picks.

Raman

[Dick Schmidt]

Rwahi1,

Well, I can't speak for Tom or Harry, but Dick has HSH and really likes it. This is one of the few pieces of software that can turn a stone loser into a winner. It ain't easy, but it's special.

Dick

Who wonders why people snicker at his name.

[GR1@HTR]

Yeah Tom, a change of direction huh?

PA, your right...I spend most of my time now learning/studying about myself and what conditions I can best produce a profit.

[VetScratch]

PA,
You can't go wrong with most of the PROFESSIONALLY produced products out there. HSH, HTR and EquiSim are the most used programs on this forum, I believe, and I've tried all three.I am curious about what you meant by "tried."

What I am getting at is the professional courtesy issue. Out of curiosity, did you pay for these products or receive them as a professional courtesy?

My family (including me) receives thousands of dollars worth of publications, books, and software programs free of charge each year. This always raises an ethical question. For example, since we have never paid a dime for many publications (e.g., Thoroughbred Times), it wouldn't be very ethical of us to recommend them without disclosing that we get them free. As a professional courtesy, we have also received many software packages, including a few handicapping programs that retail for several hundred dollars.

In any industry, lots of folks get inundated with free stuff... editors and columnists for trade publications, officials in trade associations, distributors/retailers, and many industry webmasters.

As our moderator, what would you recommend as a disclosure guideline or policy? If a member receives free stuff, should that be disclosed when blatant product testimonials are posted?

Finally, PA, if you aren't showered with freebies, you need to start asking! You can't beat free. :) :)

[Suff]

Originally posted by GR1@HTR
Yeah Tom, a change of direction huh?

.

yea bad spot sorry. It's Part of having nothing to sell. I'm not shy about the where and when of telling someone the way it is.

[PaceAdvantage]

Vet,

That's why I won't recommend a particular program. I have been given free copies of EquiSim and HSH (as well as Rube Boxer's CompuTrak, a less widely known program)

As for HTR, I think Ken Massa will give you a trial run for a few days.

I actually think I still owe Dave Schwartz an online review of HSH for the freebie he gave me(this is going on what, 3 years now??? LOL)

In any event, I can be a very lazy person when it comes to these things....sometimes, I'm even too lazy to bet on 20-1 winners that I see go by (the most recent one was today at GG...I fell asleep on my couch....I'm on vacation....didn't get the bet in on time, but I didn't get too angry, cause I know there are more down the road)

What a mess I am, eh? :eek:

[VetScratch]

Originally posted by Dave Schwartz
GT,

LOL - Classic VS. She thinks YOU were insulting.

Have a good day.

Dave You poor fool, I was impersonating YOU in my post to Game Theory. As I also said, GT's post was a marvelous example of irony.

How exquisite... after you get tweaked for always re-interpreting others, as you did with Bob Allen and Lsbets, you make a fool of yourself by misinterpreting a joke on yourself!

[VetScratch]

PA,

I have noticed that you are scrupulous. That's why I addressed the issue in a post to you, as a rhetorical question, that everyone can think about.

[freeneasy]

hey dave, didnt know you had a board over there. whats the address, id like to go check it out.

[Lefty]

Dave's board is www.horsestreet.com

[Dave Schwartz]

Free,

We'd love to have you.

HorseStreet (http://www.horsestreet.com/)

Hit the BBS link on the menu bar.

Dave