View Full Version : NYRA Running First ever Optional Claimer on thursday.
Sure enough.. not sure why.. Perhaps someone can explain why? These races are full of Claiming Stock that cannot crack allownace company. And prep horses and Guess Horses.
Whats the Purpose of allowance race now ?
They can write any condition they want into an Optional.. so just eliminat the NW allownace catergorys?
I don't like these Optionals... But I'm not sure .. there must be some reason... a sound reason they are doing it..
Its all about the field size. Perhaps the racing secretary knows the horses filling his barns and realizes the Alw races will be a tough fill. They really come in handy after January 1st for those 4yo and up NW races.
IRISHLADSTABLE
12-02-2003, 09:33 PM
I don't like these Optionals... But I'm not sure .. there must be some reason... a sound reason they are doing it.. [/B][/QUOTE]
Michael,
Don't like it either. I have a feeling a large part of it is
the new faces ( trainers n horses) we are about to see.
With the change in bottom level claimers A lot of
incoming shippers might not fit some of our conditions .
But with the change to opt claimer ,it broaden the
conditions within the race. I assume this was done to
increase field size .
Jimmy
VetScratch
12-02-2003, 10:04 PM
First optional purse payments... now optional claiming.
Optional mutuel payoffs must be next!
Pace Cap'n
12-02-2003, 10:11 PM
What, if any, significance should one attach to a horse in an optional claimer with a tag?
Observer
12-02-2003, 11:11 PM
Allowance/Optional Claimers are run at many other tracks .. guess it was just a matter of time before such races came to NY .. also .. be aware that conditioned claiming races are back again for this winter .. the first race on Thursday is Claiming $25,000, Non winners of 2 lifetime.
plainolebill
12-03-2003, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by Pace Cap'n
What, if any, significance should one attach to a horse in an optional claimer with a tag?
He's probably been through that condition, just running as a claimer now. I have seen some shrewd trainers run horses for the tag in these races, win, and come back and win again without the tag.
I don't like them because it's hard to tell exactly what the condition is just looking at pps in the form. In SoCal some nwx1 will come up as optional claiming 80k and some will come up as optional 40k. I've seen some Calbred races oclm25. They even run some classified allowance races as optional claimers now.
Valuist
12-03-2003, 10:27 AM
Didn't California start these? I don't like them either. Makes it more difficult to do key races. SoCal can probably put conditions on a race of all 2YO first time starting Mdn Specials.
Horses to avoid in these races are those that are eligible for the allowance condition, but are entered for a tag anyway. You need lifetime PPs to find out applicability.
takeout
12-03-2003, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Observer
also .. be aware that conditioned claiming races are back again for this winter .. the first race on Thursday is Claiming $25,000, Non winners of 2 lifetime.
As long as they stick to non-winners *lifetime* everything will be accurate. When they start writing non-winners of so many in so many months, almost ALL of those conditions will be wrong in the DRF & BRIS past-performance running lines (like they have been at most other tracks for years now) as well as being wrong in the *written* conditions at the top of DRF's result charts in their paper (like they have been for years now). I still can't quite grasp that they knowingly continue to put wrong race conditions in their products.
PS: They are also wrong in Alw races and any other type of race written with that type of condition.
PPS: The fifty-cent TSN product has never had any problem getting this right. Go figure.
Originally posted by Observer
.. be aware that conditioned claiming races are back again for this winter .. the first race on Thursday is Claiming $25,000, Non winners of 2 lifetime.
I refer to these as "restricted". Not a condition. Because an allowance Condition of State bred NW2... Can be run by a colt that hasn't won statebred NW1, but perhaps has won an OPEN allowance NW1. The race isn't restricted to JUST Colts that won NW1. The colt could have 3 wins against other MULTIPLE WINNERS.. Statebred NW1 and NW2. Open Allowance NW1... and is now running a NW2 event with at LEAST 4 wins. Maiden, NW 1 & 2 Statebred, and the open NW1.
a Clm25000NL2 is "Restricted" to ONLY Colts with 1 win.
btw.. A Colt Sal and I liked on Sundas card was MOLOKO.. he showed up in america with a sub-par British turf racing resume. Debuted in NY in one of those CLM25K..NL2 Feb 2003 on the inner. He won by 8 lengths. The got claimed next out for 40K. He skipped Allowance NW of 1 enitrely.. and went straight to Allow NW2 , Steve Young training. He lands 2nd in first attempt at the condition @ 20-1.
Wins allow NW2 next out at 3-1.. This OPEN COMPANY too. He goes off at 6-1 in an open 53k NW3. Bigtime race.. he got spanked by 25 lengths by Arabis.
Scott Lake Pill Box'd him next out for 35K. he ran 2nd in a 25K'r 3 days ago. 80K in 2003 earnings.
I Love these races - the public is confused by them, the conditions are not easily known, and if you do a little homework,
you can cash these babies.
You might have two identical races on two consequtive days where the winner of one might be looking at a stakes race next and the winner of the other looking for a drop in claiming price next out.
Hint-save the PPs and look back at them to see just what was really in the filed.
Just love these things. :D
VetScratch
12-03-2003, 08:12 PM
Are we all looking at the 8th on Thursday's AQU card? If so, this is not an Optional Claiming Race unless the DRF conditions are in error:
ALLOWANCE OPTIONAL CLAIMING. Purse $52,000 INNER DIRT. (Up To $10,088 NYSBFOA) For Three Year Olds And Upward Which Have Not Won Either $18,000 Twice Other Than Maiden, Claiming, Starter, Or Restricted Since August 15 Or Which Have Never Won Four Races Other Than Maiden, Claiming, Starter, Or Restricted Or Optional Claiming Price Of $75,000. Three Year Olds 122 lbs., Older 123 lbs. Non-winners of $45,000 since May 1 allowed, 2 lbs. $33,000 since September 1, 4 lbs. Four races, 6 lbs. (Maiden, claiming, starter or restricted races not considered in allowances). (Registered New York Breds allowed 3 lbs.).
The condition name is unfortunately confusing, but none of the horses will (or could) run for a tag in this race. It is basically an extension of typical allowance conditions where previous wins at an optional claiming price below $75K are NOT counted among the "Never Won Four Races Other Than..." lifetime ceiling.
If this were a true OCL race, horses would be offered a ladder of weight allowances if entered for a claiming tag scaled from $75K down to a minimum tag.
If this race goes down in historical records as OCL75000, it will really mislead a lot of players in the future.
VetScratch
12-03-2003, 08:28 PM
Does anyone have the EquiBase statement of conditions for this race? I only have the DRF version... and no tags are associated with any of the horses entered.
The condition book is exactly as you have quoted above. I don't see how it makes sense as anything other than an optional claiming race.
VetScratch
12-03-2003, 09:13 PM
Sjk,
Well, everywhere that we have run, optional claiming always offers weight concessions when you elect to run for a tag.
The stated condition of this race merely allows horses that may have already won many OCL races that were optionally tagged at 75K or below.
Note that the most common allowance condition statement will say "Never Won Four Races Except Maiden, Claiming, Starter, or Restricted." This literally makes past OCL races an eligibility issue. If a horse has already won 6 OCL races, how are they counted, and does it matter how he was entered?
To me, this new NYRA condition clarifies the NW4 statement, and none of the horses are entered for a tag in any case.
Until they write a true OCL race with scaled weight concessions, I don't think we will see any tags or claims in these races (unless EquiBase has a corrected statement of conditions).
Originally posted by Tom
I Love these races - the public is confused by them, the conditions are not easily known, and if you do a little homework,
Just love these things. :D
I agree.. from a Handicapping view it greatly benefits a guy like me who knows the stock and Knows where they fit. Provided they're not a Shipper with a Mixed Bag resume thats harder to fit in..
But otherwise I think I could do well with these races provided they run enough of them to bite into.
But as far as my View on racing and the Condition book its a weak move. the reason stated was probably accurate. They're going to let 20K Claiming stock race for Allowance race money. Why does a trainer have to work with a Horse and improve a Horse to win 35 grand in an allowance race now? He just puts him in here. Where he can't lose him for the 20K claiming race he'd need to spot him for a win.
If a Colt can't win allowance NW1 or a 40K claimer then he shoud be dropped down to the level he can compete at. And therby giving other owners and Trainers the Right to claim him and Improve Him and make money with him..or lose money.
But to often today the condition books are written so that Horsemen can Hang onto Stock, run them twice a Month in strictly claiming fields, make enough money to make sure the owners can pay the Trainer fees.. and call it a day. Trainers should be working to Keep thier stock OUT of claiming races.. not finding ways to keep them there.
Each circuit has its won agenda and i know the smaller tracks MUST do some of this to keep the barns full.. But the Majors, regardless of the season should'nt have to go this route... But I guess I'm wrong because thats what they're doing.
JustRalph
12-03-2003, 10:13 PM
If it brings in more horses.......or better horses than the first day on the inner dirt (today) I am all for it. The card today sucked!
:mad:
IRISHLADSTABLE
12-03-2003, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by JustRalph
If it brings in more horses.......or better horses than the first day on the inner dirt (today) I am all for it. The card today sucked!
:mad:
Just Ralph,
It's going to get worse. Wait till the 5000-6000
claimer's arrive.
Jimmy
VetScratch
12-03-2003, 10:52 PM
Sjk,
I was wrong... I just found a similar "Allowance Optional Claiming" condition at CD where exactly one of the horses had a claiming tag (although none will have one in the 12/04 AQU race). In the past, for the few times we entered horses for an optional tag, the races always offered weight concessions for electing to run for a tag.
I wonder how accurately wins in "Allowance Optional Claiming" races will be counted? I wonder because handwriting is sometimes sloppy. What actually gets written on the back of the NJC papers by the Racing Office is regarded as the official record of a horse's wins when you check into a new track. Since all this is handwritten after each win, it seems like there will be some confusion and occasional slip-ups as NJC papers ship from track to track with the horses. Before any race, the stewards will scratch a horse and fine the trainer when what is recorded on NJC papers makes a horse ineligible.
Attention Gary Contessa: add sloppy handwriting to your list of weak excuses in case you try to slip an ineligible horse past the stewards. :)
P.S. -- Now, after checking more tracks, I see there certainly are Allowance Optional Claiming races that still offer weight concessions for running horses for a tag.
Read the coditions :
1. NW 1 at $18,000.... or
2. NW4X or
3. Caliming price of $75,000 today.
Just happens that none are entered to be claimed today.
One sign of a good racing office is that it changes the races it cards to reflect the stock on the grounds. New York Raccing Associations's Racing Secretary/Handicapper Mike Lakow has made a few adjustments this winter that should help field sizes swell. The minimum claiming level has been lowered to $7,500, conditioned claiming races have been brought back and, for the first time, an optional claimer has been introduced.
Today's feature race at Aqueduct is an optional claiming race carrying a purse of $52,000. Horsemen can enter to run for the allowance purse, or if they feel a horse that does not fit the allowance conditions could run well in that spot, the horse can be entered for a claiming price. In this case, $75,000 would be the tag.
"Optional claimers can help because sometimes the high-priced claiming races don't fill," Lakow said. "This gives horsemen the option to run those horses in more spots. It can also help fill the money allowance races.
"Last year we had 600 empty stalls and this year we're packed. These changes will help fill races with horses from New Jersey, Delaware, Pennsylvania and New England. Hopefully, horsemen will tell us what races they're looking for. All this should help us present the strongest racing possible to our fans."
Steve 'StatMan'
12-03-2003, 11:42 PM
Generally I LOVE the Optional Claimers. Usually they are have lower allowance conditions than the AQU race in question. Often the allowance condition is for NW1X or NW2X. There may not be enough horses eligible to fill the allowance condition, so they let others, esp. those that have already met the allowance condition into the race, provided they run for the set claiming price (or claiming range if weight variances are granted).
Often in these race, the stronger horses tend to be the claimers, because they have already won at the specific allowance condition, whereas those not entered to be claimed still have yet to win at that allowance condition.
Fast and improving allowance horses with a desire to win will also do fine in these.
But be suspicious of any horse in for the claiming price but still qualifies for the allowance condition! If they can be in the race and still be protected from being claimed, but they are for sale, then there could be a good reason they are for sale.
Knowing the above, coupled with good speed figures, pace analysis - the normal good handicapping techniques, will help find a good number of winners. Since the public still tends to wrongly downgrade the 'claimers', who've already proven they can win, they sometimes offer a nice price. Sometimes a track's highest level claiming horses can be faster and tougher than the allowance horses, esp. when there aren't stakes races for those claimers that have won all their local allowance conditions, we see this in Chicago, and I see some of these elsewhere. It certainly holds true for the OCL's for NW1X and often NW2X.
VetScratch
12-04-2003, 01:53 AM
Tom,
Just happens that none are entered to be claimed today.Yes, I see why I was wrong. But why no weight given if you run for a tag? That was always part of the reason these kind of races filled the starting gates, as in "horses entered for claiming at $75000 allowed 2-LBS, and an additional 2-LBS allowed for each $5000 down to $65,000."
How will today's winner at AQU be credited, as an allowance winner (no tags started) or as a claiming winner (tags were eligible)? That would make a difference in the winner's future... and might cause confusion/mistakes when the win is recorded on the horse's NJC papers.
Why give a weight break to the claimers as they have usually already cleared the condition?
Also, the win is credited according to how the horse is entered. If entered for a tag, it does not affect any allowance conditions. If not entered for a tag, the race counts towards any future allowance conditions. That is, if this was a NW2X/50,000OptCL and the winner is not entered to be claimed, he is no longer eligible for the NW2X condition. It doesn't matter if every other horse entered for a tag.
VetScratch
12-04-2003, 08:15 AM
CJ,
Out of curiosity, I screened my 2002 races. Found 171 optional claiming races out of 8036 total races. Most had weight concessions in the DRF condition statement... in Illinois it looks like one reason is to invite/entice state-breds to run as claimers against open company allowance horses, because breeds get the equivalent of 96% (not 60%) of the gross purse for beating open company.
In other cases, the weight concessions seem intended to attract full fields.
I wasn't doubting that they give weight breaks, I just don't see the point. Now I do :), though I don't think it should be given.
3 Kazoo Migliore 9.90 4.30 2.70
4 Super Fuse Bridgmoha 2.90 2.40
7 Multiple Choice
7-2 on top off a Ml of 6-1. Bettors were significantly in disagreement with NYRA's ML odds maker.
This winner was Claimed in his First ever NY run for 100K thsi summer at saratoga. Having used up all his allowance conditions with wins at the FG's, CD and Keeneland.. he had two $$Allownace efforts in NY last month. Good efforts but no wins. Florida bred had no where top go outside of Money allowances, the rare Open stakes race or a GRADED effort. The connections did'nt have to go that route. or god forbid run him in a straight 75K claimer and risk losing him.
Nice score. 30+ thousand for beating a Field of Claimers and Multiple choice. MC was prepping off a LONG benching, and had'nt run outside a GRADE 2 or 3 in 24 months. His prep effort almost beat the Field.
Brian Flewwelling
12-04-2003, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by VetScratch
Does anyone have the EquiBase statement of conditions for this race? I only have the DRF version... and no tags are associated with any of the horses entered.
From the Equibase Charts:
"Allowance Optional Claiming - For Thoroughbred Three Year Old and Upward ( C) Six Furlongs On The Inner track "
No horses ran for a tag.
Equibase Entries don't have a description and nothing on conditions. I had to go to TSN to get a description for my personally created programs. ( i rely on the free stuff only)
The above description is exactly the same as the one i got from TSN.
Brian
VetScratch
12-05-2003, 12:00 AM
Brian,
The mistake was mine. The DRF description was OK.
I misread: Never Won Four Races Other Than Maiden, Claiming, Starter, Or Restricted Or Optional Claiming Price Of $75,000.
as if it were: Never Won Four Races Other Than Maiden, Claiming, Starter, Restricted Or Optional Claiming Price Of $75,000.
Observer
12-05-2003, 12:01 AM
The "Official" condition of the Allowance/Optional Claiming race at Aqueduct Thursday:
Race Type: Purse $52,000 (Up To $10,088 NYSBFOA). 3 & Up Allowance/Optional Claiming. Which Have Not Won Either $18,000 Twice Other Than Maiden, Claiming, Starter, Or Restricted Since August 15 Or Which Have Never Won Four Races Other Than Maiden, Claiming, Starter, Or Restricted Or Optional Claiming Price Of $75,000 Mt. Livermore
Distance: Six Furlongs(Inner Dirt)
(This comes straight off their website .. the conditions appear on both sets of entries ["daily" & "Program Numbers & Post Positions"], as well as on their charts)
NYRA's article on the Condition Book adjustments for the Winter Meet.
This is dated the 3rd, But I swore I looked on NYRA's site for any information on the 3rd.. and 4th and I must of missed it... or this was past posted...
http://www1.nyra.com/aqueduct/second.asp?track=A&id=1405
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