Whipping horses....

[Lasix67]

cmon man, give me a break. It has been and should always be part of the sport. It is used for many reasons by a jockey from getting out of the gate to getting a horse to change leads and level out. Being politically correct on every damn thing in this world today is getting to be a joke. Just my two cents worth.

[andymays]

cmon man, give me a break. It has been and should always be part of the sport. It is used for many reasons by a jockey from getting out of the gate to getting a horse to change leads and level out. Being politically correct on every damn thing in this world today is getting to be a joke. Just my two cents worth.

Agree. It's a safety thing as well but nobody ever mentions that. Now we have whips that are much softer but they still aren't satisfied. They'll keep making rules until everyone just quits.

[cj]

A few cracks are fine, but after that give me a good, strong hand ride every time.

[gm10]

I'm just watching a TVG debate about the new British whip rules. Very interesting. The British rules may appear silly, but I think they deserve a chance now that the maximum of five hits in the final furlong has been removed. Counting to 7 in a race can easily become second nature to jockeys imo.

[andymays]

They should let the Jockeys vote. I'm pretty sure they'll vote to keep the whip.

[gm10]

They should let the Jockeys vote. I'm pretty sure they'll vote to keep the whip.

They should let everyone vote.

[5k-claim]

They should let everyone vote.Do you mean like on Dancing With the Stars?

[BetCrazyGirl]

The rule is silly and obviously it's just being made for public perception. Let the jockeys use their own judgment when to whip the horse and if they do it excessively just make the punishment outweight the benefit to deter them from doing so. I really hate blanket rules like that one since it takes human judgment out of the picture.

[gm10]

Do you mean like on Dancing With the Stars?

I'm not familiar with 'Dancing With The Stars' so I can't comment on that.

From a pragmatic point of view, I certainly look forward to next season. The new rules will give us a new window into the profession, ability and influence of jockeys, and also (hopefully) bring up patterns in the way horses react. New experiment means new observations and hopefully new insights.

[tzipi]

Yes, whips are softer today and they should be used properly. That's fine with me. BUT what I can't stand is, the dopey jock who whips like a maniac on a horse who 8 of 10th in the stretch and fading behind by 10+ lengths :mad:. They should fine and suspend those "jockeys".

[Observer]

Not opposed to whips, but am definitely opposed to inappropriate use. Unfortunately many riders, in all disciplines, are at fault.

If a horse is already giving its all, what is it teaching them when continuously being subjected to the whip? In those cases, they are being "punished" for actually trying hard.

A good rider can get so much more from a horse by using just a few well-timed taps along with a strong, in-tune, in-sync ride rather than repeated, relentless, punishing blows from the whip, of any sort.

[antigeekess]

Not opposed to whips, but am definitely opposed to inappropriate use. Unfortunately many riders, in all disciplines, are at fault.

If a horse is already giving its all, what is it teaching them when continuously being subjected to the whip? In those cases, they are being "punished" for actually trying hard.

A good rider can get so much more from a horse by using just a few well-timed taps along with a strong, in-tune, in-sync ride rather than repeated, relentless, punishing blows from the whip, of any sort.

Agreed. And that's my favorite quote from Seabiscuit. :)

[Marlin]

Not opposed to whips, but am definitely opposed to inappropriate use. Unfortunately many riders, in all disciplines, are at fault.

If a horse is already giving its all, what is it teaching them when continuously being subjected to the whip? In those cases, they are being "punished" for actually trying hard.

A good rider can get so much more from a horse by using just a few well-timed taps along with a strong, in-tune, in-sync ride rather than repeated, relentless, punishing blows from the whip, of any sort.I don't think many jockeys continually whip horses that are giving their all. I do think there are many horses that don't give their all.
As for your last paragraph, I think you are correct for many horses and incorrect for many horses. All horses are not equal in all regards IMO.
However, this debate will go nowhere here. I'm not sitting on their backs and I have done no scientific research.
There are obviously two extremes. 1)Don't whip the pretty horsey. 2)Whip the hell out of that S.O.B. The truth is obviously somewhere in the middle.

[craigbraddick]

This is just my opinion...

It has nothing to do with political correctness...

Whipping animals to be obedient to work harder and to run faster is the thinking of a bygone age and it needs to be all but removed from the sport.

So many jockeys overuse the whip with the approval of owners and trainers that it is clear to me finishing 6th instead of 7th is more important than the welfare of the horse.

As a Race Caller, I see far more horses shy away from the whip than are motivated by it.

I am in favor of severely reducing the use of the whip. I do believe it can "sometimes" be used to steady a bolting or severely drifting horse and I am fine with it being used for that purpose. In the way I would give my kid a smack if they ran into traffic or put themselves in danger.

I think the whip in running should be abolished entirely. The sport is supposed to be about man and animal in harmony, not man co-ercing and often clearly over using a whip past the point of reason. If a jockey cannot get the most out of a horse without using the whip, you should find a jockey with better skills of horsemanship.

Craig.

[v j stauffer]

Yes, whips are softer today and they should be used properly. That's fine with me. BUT what I can't stand is, the dopey jock who whips like a maniac on a horse who 8 of 10th in the stretch and fading behind by 10+ lengths :mad:. They should fine and suspend those "jockeys".

Stewards are fining and suspending those jockeys. It's been a point emphasis recently.

[Observer]

I don't think many jockeys continually whip horses that are giving their all. Think battle down to the wire. I'm not talking about the jockey who knows 2nd place is secure.

I do think there are many horses that don't give their all. And there are many horses that would be happier doing something other than racing. Just like not everyone can be Michael Jordan, no matter how much they wanna be.

All horses are not equal in all regards IMO. 100% agree.

I'm not sitting on their backs and I have done no scientific research. I have done no scientific research either, but I've worked with enough horses and enough riders to know the whip can become ineffective, either in the moment or entirely. The most effective use of the whip is when the horse is trained so there is a conditioned reflex to respond and respect both the whip and the rider.

[Marlin]

This is just my opinion...

Whipping animals to be obedient to work harder and to run faster is the thinking of a bygone age and it needs to be all but removed from the sport.

As a Race Caller, I see far more horses shy away from the whip than are motivated by it.Some would say a jockey on a horse making it obedient and run faster is the thinking of a bygone age.
Your second statement I quoted is utterly absurd to me. If more horses shy away from the whip than are motivated from it, why were whips ever used? Or were those horses from a bygone age different? After all, if horses perfomed better without whips wouldn't there be no whips? Ben Hur is rolling over in his grave.:)

[andymays]

The more Horse Racing caves to political correctness the worse things get.

There is no Horse Racing utopia.

[Marlin]

The more Horse Racing caves to political correctness the worse things get.

There is no Horse Racing utopia.Thats kind of what I was getting at. If whips are from a bygone age, how long until horseracing is from a bygone age?

[jelly]

Got to like these guys that say it has nothing to do with political correctness.


When you know it has everything to do with political correctness.


Side with PETA at your own risk.

[craigbraddick]

Some would say a jockey on a horse making it obedient and run faster is the thinking of a bygone age.
Your second statement I quoted is utterly absurd to me. If more horses shy away from the whip than are motivated from it, why were whips ever used? Or were those horses from a bygone age different? After all, if horses perfomed better without whips wouldn't there be no whips? Ben Hur is rolling over in his grave.:)

Marlin:

First of all, if you are going to quote me, please quote me accurately. it is not difficult...

I said: "Whipping animals to be obedient to work harder and to run faster is the thinking of a bygone age and it needs to be all but removed from the sport."

You quoted me as saying: Some would say a jockey on a horse making it obedient and run faster is the thinking of a bygone age.

So with that in mind...

Your reaction to my suggestion seems very alarmist.

No-one is suggesting Horse Racing will become a bygone sport. There is no chance of that happening in Europe, the Middle East or Australia. If it becomes a bygone sport in the USA it will not be because of this issue but many others that (imho) all can be traced back to the time Politicians got their grubby mitts on the sport and started over regulating it.

Whips were used by earlier men (and you were the one who mentioned Ben Hur) to install fear or using physical coercion to make another creature obedient (or to work harder) and that has been used as a tool by mankind since we first started forming societal groups.

Over time, the three main Abrahamic religions justified this form of behavior where superiors ruled lessers (and animals have always been considered lessers by the Sky God of Abrahamic religious followers). And alas, in human terms, this obedience through fear or the use of physical coerciion still happens today.

One could argue there are Darwinian reasons for this and to some degree there probably are, but clearly as a group, mankind now has far more effective tools to make others (and in this case I will include animals) work than trying to establish dominance using just physical means.

I have no problem with the whip being used for correction.

Now exactly how is the viewpoint I am suggesting going to cause horse racing to become a bygone sport? Answer that question, please.

Craig

[craigbraddick]

Got to like these guys that say it has nothing to do with political correctness.


When you know it has everything to do with political correctness.


Side with PETA at your own risk.

Jelly:

I am one of the most politically incorrect people you could ever want to meet.

I am not siding with anyone, especially not PETA.

Enlighten me (And be precise in your answer) of how my suggestion has ANYTHING to do with political correctness?

Craig

[andymays]

A whip is a tool of the trade for Jockeys. If whips didn't matter then why does everyone use them?

[craigbraddick]

A whip is a tool of the trade for Jockeys. If whips didn't matter then why does everyone use them?

Andy, just because they have always been used does not mean they are being used appropriately.

In short, the use of the whip for anything but corrective measures when the horse is wandering or bolting is just an indication that on the business end of the sport, the welfare of the animal is secondary to the making of profit.

If you are happy to continue that staus quo, good for you. I am not and really think racing has a lot to answer for regarding this issue.

Even today in the races I called, I could have picked out at least 2 jockeys in each race who were over using the whip. And I noticed that while I was describing that the other ten in the field were doing.

Craig

[andymays]

Andy, just because they have always been used does not mean they are being used appropriately.

In short, the use of the whip for anything but corrective measures when the horse is wandering or bolting is just an indication that on the business end of the sport, the welfare of the animal is secondary to the making of profit.

If you are happy to continue that staus quo, good for you. I am not and really think racing has a lot to answer for regarding this issue.

Even today in the races I called, I could have picked out at least 2 jockeys in each race who were over using the whip. And I noticed that while I was describing that the other ten in the field were doing.

Craig

I don't think that you or myself for that matter should decide on how the whip should be used. It depends on the horse and the connections. Owners, Trainers, and Jockeys should decide the issue.

[Marlin]

Marlin:

First of all, if you are going to quote me, please quote me accurately. it is not difficult...

I said: "Whipping animals to be obedient to work harder and to run faster is the thinking of a bygone age and it needs to be all but removed from the sport."

You quoted me as saying: Some would say a jockey on a horse making it obedient and run faster is the thinking of a bygone age.

So with that in mind...

Your reaction to my suggestion seems very alarmist.

No-one is suggesting Horse Racing will become a bygone sport. There is no chance of that happening in Europe, the Middle East or Australia. If it becomes a bygone sport in the USA it will not be because of this issue but many others that (imho) all can be traced back to the time Politicians got their grubby mitts on the sport and started over regulating it.

Whips were used by earlier men (and you were the one who mentioned Ben Hur) to install fear or using physical coercion to make another creature obedient (or to work harder) and that has been used as a tool by mankind since we first started forming societal groups.

Over time, the three main Abrahamic religions justified this form of behavior where superiors ruled lessers (and animals have always been considered lessers by the Sky God of Abrahamic religious followers). And alas, in human terms, this obedience through fear or the use of physical coerciion still happens today.

One could argue there are Darwinian reasons for this and to some degree there probably are, but clearly as a group, mankind now has far more effective tools to make others (and in this case I will include animals) work than trying to establish dominance using just physical means.

I have no problem with the whip being used for correction.

Now exactly how is the viewpoint I am suggesting going to cause horse racing to become a bygone sport? Answer that question, please.

CraigCraig, I quoted you correctly. What you took as me quoting you was actually mine. The quotes are in the shaded area. My post begins beneath, in the non-shaded area. And you thought it wasn't difficult.:)

How is your viewpoint going to cause horse racing to become a bygone sport? It probably won't. It's just a slippery slope, a foot in the door, give an inch take a mile type thing I am concerned about. I enjoy the status quo while at the same time lose no sleep about the relationship between welfare of the horse and whip. With the current veterinary and salvage issues in play, an occasional case of bruising and bleeding does not move me to classify the use of a whip as bygone thinking. However, in these cases I'm all for adequate disciplinary consequences. And if a study can prove that these case are far more common than I think, I'll be willing to potentially adopt a different stance.

[nijinski]

Don't remember if there were many complaints back when Laz Barrera told his Jockey to use the whip so Affirmed wouldn't get too lazy . That was the conventional whip.
I think we made kinder strides by switching to a padded whip but with the
the breed somewhat less sturdy and the lack of educating the public to all the facts regarding the whip maybe the public perception is what worries those who want to ban the use.

[classhandicapper]

I think the whip should only be used to guide a horse directionally, get him to change leads, and anything else related to proper running that might lead to greater safety for all the horses and riders.

I have no problem admitting I love the animals and think a whip should never be used to get a horse to give more effort than it's willing to give on its own. I'm probably as politically incorrect a guy as you will find. In fact, I find it stimulating to be politically incorrect when I think the politically correct folks are being dumb asses. I just don't see the upside to whipping defenseless animals that we are already using for our entertainment. As long as the rules are equal for everyone, it's no big deal to me and there is a huge upside to perceptions about the sport. To be quite honest, IMO there are upsides to perceptions about ourselves, our priorities, and our values.

Obviously, there are going to be a lot of people that disagree. But I think that's the consensus the industry should be trying to build so it can eventually be implemented without too much dissent.

[GatetoWire]

I believe in using the whip on occasion but I find that in too many situations the jockey's go overboard.

I believe 100% that Martin Garcia rode First Dude into retirement in the Hollywood Gold Cup. He beat that horse all the way down the stretch in that race and it turned out to be his last.

2-3 solid whacks are fine. 20-25 whacks are not.

[Casino]

I believe in using the whip on occasion but I find that in too many situations the jockey's go overboard.

I believe 100% that Martin Garcia rode First Dude into retirement in the Hollywood Gold Cup. He beat that horse all the way down the stretch in that race and it turned out to be his last.

2-3 solid whacks are fine. 20-25 whacks are not.

GTW do you remember Mike Smith in his prime while riding in NY.Talk about whacking a horse into retirement.Smith would whip from the far turn til the finish line.

[Observer]

Mike Smith - maybe someone could post a link to his ride on Holy Bull in the Travers?

[cj]

Mike Smith - maybe someone could post a link to his ride on Holy Bull in the Travers?

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