View Full Version : It's now illegal to accept online horse bets from Texas.
andymays
10-27-2011, 06:08 PM
http://www.chron.com/default/article/Horse-notebook-Lone-Star-bets-off-limits-says-2238433.php
Excerpt;
The Texas Racing Commission has begun informing out-of-state wagering companies that it's now illegal to accept online horse or greyhound bets from Texas.
In effect since Sept. 1, HB 2271 also outlaws phone wagers from this state.
On Oct. 14, TRC executive director Chuck Trout wrote nine out-of-state wagering companies about the legislation. Texas Attorney General staff consulted with the TRC on the letter's contents.
More people without a clue:
"ADW accounts siphon revenue from Texas tracks and Texas governance. A Texan wagering from home on a New York race through a Kentucky ADW account excludes Texas from the transaction. This state gets a revenue slice only if that race occurs at a Texas track."
Do they actually think people will just start going to the track again? Please.
Robert Goren
10-27-2011, 06:26 PM
If Lone Star and Sam Houston aren't behind this, who is? I doubt the Texas politicians came up with this all by themselves.
bigmack
10-27-2011, 06:53 PM
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/TexasHouseofRepresentativesBillHB2271-OpenGovernmentTexas.png
MONEY
10-27-2011, 07:37 PM
I live in Texas.:ThmbDown:
PTC is still taking bets.:ThmbUp:
If PTC stops taking bets, I'll be done with horse racing.:ThmbDown:
iceknight
10-27-2011, 08:05 PM
More people without a clue:
"ADW accounts siphon revenue from Texas tracks and Texas governance. A Texan wagering from home on a New York race through a Kentucky ADW account excludes Texas from the transaction. This state gets a revenue slice only if that race occurs at a Texas track."
Do they actually think people will just start going to the track again? Please.
Is this analogous to not being able to tax Amazon.com shopping vs Local retailers ?
Handiman
10-27-2011, 08:08 PM
Hey I'm a politician.....Look at me, I'm important and I'll prove it by jamming some useless crap legislation down your throat. But you are after all an ignorant lazy citizen that swallows all the crap I say.
That is what sits bouncing around in most politician's heads. I'm sick of them all. Our country is in the mess it is, because of POLITICIANS..... And they don't even get it.
Handi hate em all!
Greyfox
10-27-2011, 08:15 PM
If Lone Star and Sam Houston aren't behind this, who is? I doubt the Texas politicians came up with this all by themselves.
Maybe Perry is? He's pouting over his appeal outside the Lone Star state. ;)
mannyberrios
10-27-2011, 08:41 PM
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/TexasHouseofRepresentativesBillHB2271-OpenGovernmentTexas.png
What a shame
TJDave
10-27-2011, 10:12 PM
Do they actually think people will just start going to the track again? Please.
I realize that this is a very unpopular opinion but:
I'm convinced the reason for the sorry state of the sport is because there is OTB.
If folks don't start going to the track again horse racing is done.
Hanover1
10-27-2011, 10:22 PM
I realize that this is a very unpopular opinion but:
I'm convinced the reason for the sorry state of the sport is because there is OTB.
If folks don't start going to the track again horse racing is done.
This is exactly how the spiral started-by allowing patrons to wager outside the track instead of attending. Revenue to the track shrinks now as result of everybody else with a slice of their own out of every dollar wagered. Killed harness.....(well that was part of the story....)
Dave Schwartz
10-27-2011, 11:25 PM
TJD,
I realize that this is a very unpopular opinion but:
I'm convinced the reason for the sorry state of the sport is because there is OTB.
If folks don't start going to the track again horse racing is done.
Everything changes.
Things evolve.
You cannot get the manure back into the horse.
Sincerely,
Dave Schwartz
lamboguy
10-28-2011, 08:02 AM
this is the texas shakedown. and why it has happened is because the racing game is very stupid. racing needed to regulate itself, instead of having the states stick their noses in. states want NFL franchises in their cities, because it brings plenty of revenue for them to spend and help keeps their economy going. racing is very limited these days in creating a positive outlook for anything.
raybo
10-28-2011, 08:19 AM
Well, as a Texas resident, and an ADW wagerer, this is probably the end of racing for me.
This is absolutely the stupidest thing that the state could have done. Now, Texas tracks will receive less revenue than before. Texans quit betting Texas tracks back when GW pushed the law through that banned residents from wagering on Texas tracks via the internet. Now they'e taken the next step, making it illegal to wager on any tracks via the internet. We're talking millions of dollars for all US tracks.
HANA, where are you?
Do they think anything positive will come from this?
Absolutely ridiculous!
Canarsie
10-28-2011, 08:22 AM
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/TexasHouseofRepresentativesBillHB2271-OpenGovernmentTexas.png
This is close as I'll get to politics but lets be fair here both sides are at fault. Nothing gets passed without Republican support.
Texas Legislature
82nd Legislature quick facts
http://www.star-telegram.com/2011/01/12/2764362/82nd-legislature-quick-facts.html
Furthermore nothing could even get done here with the House leader approving it.
Two Democrats' defections give Republicans supermajority in Texas House
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/texas-legislature/headlines/20101214-two-democrats_defections-give-republicans-supermajority-in-texas-house.ece
At least to me both sides are buffoons the blame doesn't lie with one party. It gets attached to everyone who voted for it and the Governor who signed it.
BillW
10-28-2011, 09:25 AM
Typically in cases like this, the industry is behind it and the gov't just rubber stamps it, assuming they know what's best for them. TUP pulled this off in Az.
DJofSD
10-28-2011, 10:12 AM
No bets from Tx -- just in time for the Breeder's Cup? Oh my.
RainMan
10-28-2011, 10:33 AM
For us Texans this issue rears its ugly head every few years. However, this time it may be reality. The problem is that the ADW's and Texas have always had different interpretations of the law when it comes to the state's right to regulate interstate transactions. More frustrating is the fact that neither side will give you a straight answer. In the past I have contacted Austin and got nowhere. Just got off the phone with TwinSpires customer service a few minutes ago and asked if it was now illegal to bet from Texas. Short answer was "Our status hasn't changed."
Even though I went through the BrisBet to BetPad to Twinspires process, I am thinking that I should go ahead and cash out and close my account this time. Morally, I am not a big fan of breaking the law. Economically, I don't want to take even the remote chance of ending up with "frozen assets".
Cholly
10-28-2011, 10:34 AM
http://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/texas-cracks-down-on-online-horse-race-wagering/
Does anybody have any insight as to how this plays out? Should I start packing my bags?
RainMan
10-28-2011, 10:42 AM
Guess the ADW's aren't too worried. I've called TwinSpires and XpressBet. Both are still taking new customers from Texas.
BuddyOscar
10-28-2011, 11:29 AM
Does anyone foresee a scenario where they would go after the individuals placing wagers rather than the ADW's? Or is this law strictly aimed at the companies accepting the wagers?
BillW
10-28-2011, 12:51 PM
Does anyone foresee a scenario where they would go after the individuals placing wagers rather than the ADW's? Or is this law strictly aimed at the companies accepting the wagers?
I don't see how they can enforce Texas law on an (for instance) Oregon corporation beyond disallowing a license to operate in Texas.
raybo
10-28-2011, 08:39 PM
Well, there's one thing that we can all do, Texas residents or not, blackball all Texas tracks. If they want to run our tracks out of business, and that's what will happen if this thing plays out, let's help speed it along. Maybe they'll see what's happening in time to change their thinking a little. What are they going to do, put slots in the tracks? Not hardly, the Baptists would not allow it.
I live here and don't want to see Hou, LS, and Ret go under, but if the state wants to run the way we spend our money, then they can do so with no racing revenue at all. The TRC is there only because we have racing here, if there are no tracks, then there will be no reason for having a TRC.
I've already notified Chuck Trout, at the TRC, that I will never visit a Texas track, as long as laws like this remain on the books.
here's his email: chuck.trout@txrc.state.tx.us
raybo
10-28-2011, 08:47 PM
I don't see how they can enforce Texas law on an (for instance) Oregon corporation beyond disallowing a license to operate in Texas.
I know when Texas passed the law making it illegal for Texas residents to wager on Texas tracks via the internet, Brisnet, my ADW at the time, said "Let Texas enforce their own laws", they kept taking bets from us on Texas tracks until they sold out. No one that I have ever heard anywhere, was ever prosecuted for breaking that law.
raybo
10-28-2011, 09:48 PM
Well, as a Texas resident, and an ADW wagerer, this is probably the end of racing for me.
This is absolutely the stupidest thing that the state could have done. Now, Texas tracks will receive less revenue than before. Texans quit betting Texas tracks back when GW pushed the law through that banned residents from wagering on Texas tracks via the internet. Now they'e taken the next step, making it illegal to wager on any tracks via the internet. We're talking millions of dollars for all US tracks.
HANA, where are you?
Do they think anything positive will come from this?
Absolutely ridiculous!
I'm calling for a boycott of all Texas tracks on my forum.
Join us and tell state and federal governments that they have no right telling us where and how to spend our money!
HANA really needs to get involved in this situation, the industry, and we as players, will all suffer. This could be the last straw for US racing.
ranchwest
10-29-2011, 12:13 AM
More people without a clue:
"ADW accounts siphon revenue from Texas tracks and Texas governance. A Texan wagering from home on a New York race through a Kentucky ADW account excludes Texas from the transaction. This state gets a revenue slice only if that race occurs at a Texas track."
Do they actually think people will just start going to the track again? Please.
Well, of course ADW accounts siphon revenue from Texas tracks. Texas made it against the law to bet on Texas tracks. That pretty much just leaves out of state tracks, eh? Sheesh, does it take a brainasaur to figure this out?
Jeff P
10-29-2011, 12:26 AM
I'm calling for a boycott of all Texas tracks on my forum.
Join us and tell state and federal governments that they have no right telling us where and how to spend our money!
HANA really needs to get involved in this situation, the industry, and we as players, will all suffer. This could be the last straw for US racing.
I agree Ray.
If you are a Texas player and feel the same way, shoot us an email at:
horseplayersassociation@gmail.com
-jp
.
highnote
10-29-2011, 01:12 AM
From the article that started this thread:
ADW accounts siphon revenue from Texas tracks and Texas governance. A Texan wagering from home on a New York race through a Kentucky ADW account excludes Texas from the transaction. This state gets a revenue slice only if that race occurs at a Texas track.
This is like passing a law to ban Texas citizens from buying books online because Texas brick and mortar bookstores don't get a cut of the revenue.
Why should a Texas track get a piece of the online wagering action on other tracks made through out-of-state ADWs? Maybe the management of Texas tracks should get entrepreneurial and start their own ADWs and sign people up so they can make a commission? Maybe the government of Texas should give incentives to those who want to start up a business in Texas? Instead these ignorant pols do the exact opposite of what should be done and end up stifling business.
Texas tracks should not get a commission for doing nothing. Since they know they can't get a commission for doing nothing, their response is to force a ban on out-of-state wagering by Texans. Gotta love protectionism! :rolleyes: One more nail in the coffin of racing in Texas.
Hey Texas racetrack industry folks and politicians ... good luck competing with NYRA now that there are slots at Aqueduct. It's going to take more than a ban on your citizens to bring back the health of Texas racing.
If I owned an ADW the first thing I would do is start an advertising campaign that says, "We take bets from Texas residents".
RainMan
10-29-2011, 06:46 AM
Enough about theories and opinions - what are the nuts and bolts of this crisis. Are us Texas horseplayers required to close our accounts immediately or do we just keep playing a.k.a. as breaking the law until we get caught or the ADW's comply and disallow Texas residents. Also, does this Texas law affect playing on-line NHC and HWS handicapping contests. For example, several qualifying sites are independent but in order to play the TwinSpires and XpressBet tournaments you are required to have an account. So, since it is now illegal to wager on-line is it also illegal to maintain a wagering account for the other benefits that they offer such as access to contests and race replays?
Robert Goren
10-29-2011, 08:12 AM
Looks like Twinspires has reponded by dropping Lone Star, I went to make a bet there last night and it was gone. I know they had it last summer.
precocity
10-29-2011, 08:25 AM
If Lone Star and Sam Houston aren't behind this, who is? I doubt the Texas politicians came up with this all by themselves.
for real I live in Dallas and if they kill my twin spires account its a wrap for me :mad:
highnote
10-29-2011, 10:00 AM
If I lived in Texas I would keep making online bets.
When is the last time anyone was arrested for betting over the internet?
Texas gov and racetracks want revenue from ADWs who take bets from Texas residents on out-of-state tracks. Since there is no way to get that revenue they are enacting a "Prohibition" on wagering by Texans.
We all know how "Prohibition" worked out in the early part of last century.
Enough about theories and opinions - what are the nuts and bolts of this crisis. Are us Texas horseplayers required to close our accounts immediately or do we just keep playing a.k.a. as breaking the law until we get caught or the ADW's comply and disallow Texas residents. Also, does this Texas law affect playing on-line NHC and HWS handicapping contests. For example, several qualifying sites are independent but in order to play the TwinSpires and XpressBet tournaments you are required to have an account. So, since it is now illegal to wager on-line is it also illegal to maintain a wagering account for the other benefits that they offer such as access to contests and race replays?
ranchwest
10-29-2011, 11:37 AM
Under the Constitution, states cannot regulate interstate commerce. Of course, nobody (except attorneys) wants to litigate anything, so this is all just an ugly mess. An illegal legality.
raybo
10-29-2011, 12:53 PM
From the article that started this thread:
This is like passing a law to ban Texas citizens from buying books online because Texas brick and mortar bookstores don't get a cut of the revenue.
Why should a Texas track get a piece of the online wagering action on other tracks made through out-of-state ADWs? Maybe the management of Texas tracks should get entrepreneurial and start their own ADWs and sign people up so they can make a commission? Maybe the government of Texas should give incentives to those who want to start up a business in Texas? Instead these ignorant pols do the exact opposite of what should be done and end up stifling business.
Texas tracks should not get a commission for doing nothing. Since they know they can't get a commission for doing nothing, their response is to force a ban on out-of-state wagering by Texans. Gotta love protectionism! :rolleyes: One more nail in the coffin of racing in Texas.
Hey Texas racetrack industry folks and politicians ... good luck competing with NYRA now that there are slots at Aqueduct. It's going to take more than a ban on your citizens to bring back the health of Texas racing.
If I owned an ADW the first thing I would do is start an advertising campaign that says, "We take bets from Texas residents".
The problem goes much farther than just the tracks in Texas. Do you realize how much we Texans wager? All that handle, via any ADW anywhere, are "legally" gone, including the NYRA.
This will not only kill Texas tracks, it will hurt, severely, all tracks in the US. Handle will drop everywhere and won't return until Texans are able to wager through an ADW again.
This is a "huge" deal!
Canarsie
10-29-2011, 01:00 PM
Here's the bill in PDF format if anyone wants to read it.
www.sunset.state.tx.us/82ndreports/trc/trc_SL.pdf
Here's more info letters went out only two weeks ago.
http://www.chron.com/sports/article/Horse-notebook-Lone-Star-bets-off-limits-to-2238433.php
highnote
10-29-2011, 01:06 PM
Elvis Costello wrote, "I used to be disgusted. Now I'm just amused."
This pretty much sums up how I feel about the racing industry.
This will not only kill Texas tracks, it will hurt, severely, all tracks in the US. Handle will drop everywhere and won't return until Texans are able to wager through an ADW again.
This is a "huge" deal!
redshift1
10-29-2011, 03:13 PM
So the only legal way to bet the BC from Texas would be from a Texas track via simulcast ?
raybo
10-29-2011, 05:43 PM
So the only legal way to bet the BC from Texas would be from a Texas track via simulcast ?
If your ADW decides to not let you bet, yes, you will have to go to a track to wager anywhere, not just the BC races.
As it is now, some ADWs are still allowing residents to wager.
raybo
10-29-2011, 05:44 PM
We need to get Ian involved in this thread, to get the thoughts of someone involved in an ADW, and what their thoughts about this are.
fmolf
10-29-2011, 07:10 PM
somewhere somehow the politicians are plotting .Perhaps they'll let the tracks provide adw wagering services to Tx. residents.They need to go back and take economics 101 if they believe that this measure will benefit anyone in the racing industry.I know it will be tough to organize,but a letter writing campaign in conjunctionwith your boycott will help!Count me in I will never bet another nickel at Texas tracks.I used to like the night racing there too.Plenty other places to play."Only Texas messes with Texas"...let your congressman and senators know how unhappy you are!
FiveWide
10-29-2011, 07:21 PM
I'm a Texas resident and am so confused now. After my dad talked to the Texas Racing Commision a few years ago we were under the impression it was illegal to do any online wagering.
Now there is a bill making it illegal to bet non-Texas tracks from ADWs. Was this legal before now? What exactly was the law before this HB? Thanks in advance.
-Five
highnote
10-29-2011, 07:35 PM
It is mind boggling how short sighted and maybe even downright lazy the people behind these decisions in Texas are.
If they had any entrepreneurial ability at all and got a little scrappy they could turn things around.
Texas tracks or Texas companies should start their own Texas based ADWs and try to pursuade Texans to sign up by giving them sweet deals, lower rates, rebates, loyalty points, whatever it takes. Give the customers the best ADW service in the country. Once they have the customers and build loyalty the customers will tolerate small increases in rates because they are so well taken care of.
Now, that's the logical way to run a business.
However, Politicians, bureaucrats and track management prefer to grow their business using the power of monopoly rather than entrepreneurship. I feel bad for Texas bettors.
garyscpa
10-30-2011, 01:15 PM
"In addition, the bill eliminates uncashed winning tickets as a source of Commission revenue, allowing
racetracks to keep revenue from uncashed winning tickets. The Commission will replace the lost
revenue by adjusting other racing-related regulatory fees paid by each licensed racetrack. Finally, the
bill clarifies that all unlicensed entities are prohibited from accepting wagers placed by Texas residents."
This quote is from the .pdf Canarsie linked above.
Apparently it doesn't make it illegal for a Texas resident to place the bet, it just prohibits unlicensed entities (unlicensed with the TRC, that is) from taking wagers. I don't know how enforceable that would be.
Looks like a bad deal for the stoopers, though. :D
FiveWide
10-30-2011, 02:49 PM
"Finally, the
bill clarifies that all unlicensed entities are prohibited from accepting wagers placed by Texas residents."
This quote is from the .pdf Canarsie linked above.
Apparently it doesn't make it illegal for a Texas resident to place the bet, it just prohibits unlicensed entities (unlicensed with the TRC, that is) from taking wagers. I don't know how enforceable that would be.
Looks like a bad deal for the stoopers, though. :D
So what exactly dictates whether an entity is licensed or not? Are some ADWs unlicensed or are they all unlicensed?
-Five
raybo
10-30-2011, 03:03 PM
I'm a Texas resident and am so confused now. After my dad talked to the Texas Racing Commision a few years ago we were under the impression it was illegal to do any online wagering.
Now there is a bill making it illegal to bet non-Texas tracks from ADWs. Was this legal before now? What exactly was the law before this HB? Thanks in advance.
-Five
A few years ago Texas passed a bill making it illegal to wager on Texas tracks, as a Texas resident, over the internet. Some ADWs ignored it.
This new law makes it illegal for a Texas resident to wager on ANY track, worldwide, through any U.S. ADW. Most ADWs are ignoring it, thus far, I believe. I have contacted Twinspires and DarkHorseBet and they both say their policies still accept Texas wagers on the tracks they handle.
Hopefully, all ADWs will ignore the law, as Texas cannot do any harm to them, only the Texas residents who wager using them. But, I have never heard of any Texas resident being prosecuted for wagering on Texas tracks via an ADW, so I doubt they will prosecute any under this new law. If they do, they will open up one big can of worms, as I don't see how they can defend their case, as their having the right to tell citizens of the USA, Texas residents or not, how and where they can spend their money.
RainMan
10-30-2011, 04:25 PM
Sec. 11.05. UNLAWFUL WAGERING. Prohibits a person from wagering on the result of a greyhound race or horse race in this state except as permitted by this Act. Prohibits a person who is not an association under this Act from accepting from a Texas resident while the resident is in this state a wager on the result of a greyhound race or horse race conducted inside or outside this state.
If I read this section of HB 2271 correctly, it sounds like you can be a Texas resident and legally bet through an ADW as long as you are not physically in the state at the time the wager is placed. How on earth could this be enforced? Anyway, goods news for horseplayers who live on State Line Blvd. that separates Texarkana Tx. and Texarkana Ak. - Just walk across the street and call in your bets.
JustRalph
10-30-2011, 07:16 PM
Can anybody figure out what the penalty for playing would be for the average joe?
garyscpa
10-30-2011, 07:25 PM
Sec. 11.05. UNLAWFUL WAGERING. Prohibits a person from wagering on the result of a greyhound race or horse race in this state except as permitted by this Act. Prohibits a person who is not an association under this Act from accepting from a Texas resident while the resident is in this state a wager on the result of a greyhound race or horse race conducted inside or outside this state.
If I read this section of HB 2271 correctly, it sounds like you can be a Texas resident and legally bet through an ADW as long as you are not physically in the state at the time the wager is placed. How on earth could this be enforced? Anyway, goods news for horseplayers who live on State Line Blvd. that separates Texarkana Tx. and Texarkana Ak. - Just walk across the street and call in your bets.
That just sounds like you can't bet on a race in this state.
raybo
10-30-2011, 11:52 PM
Sec. 11.05. UNLAWFUL WAGERING. Prohibits a person from wagering on the result of a greyhound race or horse race in this state except as permitted by this Act. Prohibits a person who is not an association under this Act from accepting from a Texas resident while the resident is in this state a wager on the result of a greyhound race or horse race conducted inside or outside this state.
If I read this section of HB 2271 correctly, it sounds like you can be a Texas resident and legally bet through an ADW as long as you are not physically in the state at the time the wager is placed. How on earth could this be enforced? Anyway, goods news for horseplayers who live on State Line Blvd. that separates Texarkana Tx. and Texarkana Ak. - Just walk across the street and call in your bets.
If you can make your computer's IP look like it's not in Texas, then you have no worries, but I have no idea how you would do that.
How in the world is Texas going to enforce the illegality of a company, or individual outside the state of Texas taking a wager from a Texas resident? Sounds like "smoke and mirrors" to me, a scare tactic that is unenforceable outside Texas.
Now, if a Texan does place such a wager, and the state finds out about it, they could certainly try to prosecute the resident, but not the out of state company or individual taking the wager.
As far as I know, a state cannot enforce another state's laws.
antigeekess
10-31-2011, 02:36 AM
Well, as a Texas resident, and an ADW wagerer, this is probably the end of racing for me.
This is absolutely the stupidest thing that the state could have done. Now, Texas tracks will receive less revenue than before. Texans quit betting Texas tracks back when GW pushed the law through that banned residents from wagering on Texas tracks via the internet. Now they'e taken the next step, making it illegal to wager on any tracks via the internet. We're talking millions of dollars for all US tracks.
HANA, where are you?
Do they think anything positive will come from this?
Absolutely ridiculous!
Oh no, Raybo! I hope it ain't so. I'm originally from Lancaster (just south of Dallas) -- in fact, spent part of my childhood there on Cedar Creek Lake. Had toyed with the idea of originally coming back to Texas because I kinda like Austin. If this is the case -- no online wagering on the ponies --that's a deal breaker for me.
I'm not sure how online wagering works in terms of licensing and agreements with states they operate in, but it seems Texas could just stick a few pennies tax on these wagers if they're so cheesed off about not getting anything. It's not like there are that many tracks to even GO to there, are there?
raybo
10-31-2011, 02:46 AM
Oh no, Raybo! I hope it ain't so. I'm originally from Lancaster (just south of Dallas) -- in fact, spent part of my childhood there on Cedar Creek Lake. Had toyed with the idea of originally coming back to Texas because I kinda like Austin. If this is the case -- no online wagering on the ponies --that's a deal breaker for me.
I'm not sure how online wagering works in terms of licensing and agreements with states they operate in, but it seems Texas could just stick a few pennies tax on these wagers if they're so cheesed off about not getting anything. It's not like there are that many tracks to even GO to there, are there?
Things have been going downhill here for years. We're becoming more and more like D.C.. The government wants to know everything you do, where you do it, and what they can get from it. The more money they get the more they want.
Wish I was back in Austin and it was 1968 again. What a town that was!
I doubt seriously that I'll still be here in 2 years. I'm retired now and can live anywhere I want. Had my fill of it.
Robert Goren
10-31-2011, 04:33 AM
If you can make your computer's IP look like it's not in Texas, then you have no worries, but I have no idea how you would do that.
How in the world is Texas going to enforce the illegality of a company, or individual outside the state of Texas taking a wager from a Texas resident? Sounds like "smoke and mirrors" to me, a scare tactic that is unenforceable outside Texas.
Now, if a Texan does place such a wager, and the state finds out about it, they could certainly try to prosecute the resident, but not the out of state company or individual taking the wager.
As far as I know, a state cannot enforce another state's laws.Several states have outlawed betting on horse races over the internet and most ADWs respect those laws. There are some offshore ADWs who not. Twinspire, for instance, has a long list of states that it will not take bets from.
State laws concerning the internet are still a grey area. There are plenty cases winding their way through the courts right now. Most involve either taxes or porn. I am not sure any ADW is willing to spend the money on lawyers to go to court on this matter.
JustRalph
10-31-2011, 09:05 AM
be aware that altering your IP address to play may be a more harsh penalty than just playing..........fyi
Canarsie
10-31-2011, 10:13 AM
be aware that altering your IP address to play may be a more harsh penalty than just playing..........fyi
Absolutely I could have put up a site which let's you choose where you want your IP address to show for around $80 yearly. But the penalty would be much more severe I don't want to be an accomplice.
Ralph is spot on don't ignore his advice.
RainMan
10-31-2011, 10:45 AM
At this time, we are able to open new accounts from residents of Texas.
Please let us know if you have any other questions.
Good luck at the races!
E-mail response from XpressBet regarding on-line wagering from Texas.
raybo
10-31-2011, 10:58 AM
At this time, we are able to open new accounts from residents of Texas.
Please let us know if you have any other questions.
Good luck at the races!
E-mail response from XpressBet regarding on-line wagering from Texas.
That appears to be the general response from most ADWs.
raybo
10-31-2011, 11:07 AM
Absolutely I could have put up a site which let's you choose where you want your IP address to show for around $80 yearly. But the penalty would be much more severe I don't want to be an accomplice.
Ralph is spot on don't ignore his advice.
I think that many Texans will not want to take the chance of getting in legal troubles with the state, and that is what concerns me, if they stop wagering online, it will hurt all tracks nationwide.
The racing industry can't handle that kind of revenue loss.
highnote
10-31-2011, 12:21 PM
I attended a legal conference on horse racing a couple of years ago in Lexington, KY. One racing attorney asked a rhetorical question... "How many people in the u.S. have been arrested for betting online?"
The attorney general of my state told me that even though it is technically illegal to bet online in Connecticut I would not be arrested.
This is a power struggle between the tracks and ADWs. They are willing to screw the players in order to get their way. So the best thing to do might be to boycott Texas tracks. I've already boycotted California. No big deal to boycott Texas.
raybo
10-31-2011, 01:47 PM
I attended a legal conference on horse racing a couple of years ago in Lexington, KY. One racing attorney asked a rhetorical question... "How many people in the u.S. have been arrested for betting online?"
The attorney general of my state told me that even though it is technically illegal to bet online in Connecticut I would not be arrested.
This is a power struggle between the tracks and ADWs. They are willing to screw the players in order to get their way. So the best thing to do might be to boycott Texas tracks. I've already boycotted California. No big deal to boycott Texas.
Yeah. Trying to be a nice guy hasn't been working, it's time to organize a huge boycott. If states, tracks, the industry, etc., won't listen to suggestions, then maybe they'll listen to money going away.
They can shut down Texas tracks, I can't bet them anyway unless I want to travel almost 100 miles to the track, and I ain't gonna do that, just so I can sit there and get inundated with all the worthless crap one has to put up with.
Canarsie
10-31-2011, 03:48 PM
I think that many Texans will not want to take the chance of getting in legal troubles with the state, and that is what concerns me, if they stop wagering online, it will hurt all tracks nationwide.
The racing industry can't handle that kind of revenue loss.
Seriously if 10% of the people who wager would write their state representatives not using a form letter but from scratch they might listen. They should express what you stated above. Petitions are worthless I refuse to sign them they're worth one signature.
I know CJ and I wrote Keeneland but never received an answer (me) but I still would do it again.
If an elected representative gets at least 100 letters he will investigate it as that translates into thousands of votes.
This guy was one of my heroes he really looked after his constituents.
D'Amato drew the nickname Senator Pothole for his delivery of "constituent services," helping citizens with their individual cases. While some New Yorkers meant the nickname as a pejorative, many others saw it as a positive affirmation of his attention to getting things done.
All you can hope for is someone like him in Texas.
RainMan
10-31-2011, 04:20 PM
Alternate idea. I just closed my account with TwinSpires. If every Texan with an ADW closed their accounts maybe the ADW's themselves would challenge the state to revoke this bill. I have no idea how many Texas account holders there are but this would have to take some kind of chunk out of the bottom line.
JustRalph
10-31-2011, 04:54 PM
Alternate idea. I just closed my account with TwinSpires. If every Texan with an ADW closed their accounts maybe the ADW's themselves would challenge the state to revoke this bill. I have no idea how many Texas account holders there are but this would have to take some kind of chunk out of the bottom line.
You have a gross misunderstanding of how State Lawmakers work. They don't give a shit about an ADW. The ADW isn't going to "challenge" the state because they know that the lawmakers could give a rat's proverbial ass about them.
ADW's aren't in the business of challenging state lawmakers. What would you recommend they do? Open a lobbying division, employee high paid employees to pursue this issue? Therefore going millions of dollars in debt just to nip at the heels of some Texas State lawmakers boots ?
MMM59
10-31-2011, 05:05 PM
Next, they will want to ban Internet Poker......Oh, wait......that was someone else.
highnote
10-31-2011, 05:15 PM
I advocate just the opposite... open an account with an ADW outside of Texas and never step foot in a Texas track until this silly law is rescinded. The law is supposed to work for people not against them. Who benefits from this law? Who is behind this law?
Alternate idea. I just closed my account with TwinSpires. If every Texan with an ADW closed their accounts maybe the ADW's themselves would challenge the state to revoke this bill. I have no idea how many Texas account holders there are but this would have to take some kind of chunk out of the bottom line.
lamboguy
10-31-2011, 05:19 PM
i wonder what everyone thinks mitt romney will do once he gets in?
maybe he has changed his stance on gambling, but he has hated all forms of gambling for years, at least 30 years that i know of.
highnote
10-31-2011, 05:29 PM
i wonder what everyone thinks mitt romney will do once he gets in?
maybe he has changed his stance on gambling, but he has hated all forms of gambling for years, at least 30 years that i know of.
Presidents have a harder time passing domestic legislation. So not too concerned there. I don't know what his foreign policies are.
riskman
10-31-2011, 05:40 PM
I believe the Mormon Church opposes gambling and the church have been part of the efforts to oppose gambling and legislation that would legalize gambling. Do not know what the plastic mans position is on this subject. Depends probably where he is speaking, Las Vegas or Salt Lake City.
lamboguy
10-31-2011, 05:53 PM
I believe the Mormon Church opposes gambling and the church have been part of the efforts to oppose gambling and legislation that would legalize gambling. Do not know what the plastic mans position is on this subject. Depends probably where he is speaking, Las Vegas or Salt Lake City.i am sure mitt will do whatever is right, right for him that is,
he is truly an amazing man, one minute he sticks the state of massachusetts with health insurance reform, the next words out of his mouth are that he is against reform on a national level. i guess its only good to stick me with his retaurded plan because he didn't even want to run for re-election as the governor here. he ran out of here faster than abner haynes ran down the football field to catch a pass.
Robert Goren
10-31-2011, 06:54 PM
I attended a legal conference on horse racing a couple of years ago in Lexington, KY. One racing attorney asked a rhetorical question... "How many people in the u.S. have been arrested for betting online?"
The attorney general of my state told me that even though it is technically illegal to bet online in Connecticut I would not be arrested.
This is a power struggle between the tracks and ADWs. They are willing to screw the players in order to get their way. So the best thing to do might be to boycott Texas tracks. I've already boycotted California. No big deal to boycott Texas. How is that working out for you? Has California dropped its take out rates?
highnote
10-31-2011, 07:23 PM
How is that working out for you? Has California dropped its take out rates?
It's worked out well, so far. I haven't missed betting there at all.
I don't know if they dropped their takeout rates. I haven't checked and am not particularly interested, to be honest.
mannyberrios
10-31-2011, 09:35 PM
Yeah. Trying to be a nice guy hasn't been working, it's time to organize a huge boycott. If states, tracks, the industry, etc., won't listen to suggestions, then maybe they'll listen to money going away.
They can shut down Texas tracks, I can't bet them anyway unless I want to travel almost 100 miles to the track, and I ain't gonna do that, just so I can sit there and get inundated with all the worthless crap one has to put up with.Hello Ray, aren't there any OTB near where you live? I am real sorry for what's going on out there in Texas
PaceAdvantage
11-01-2011, 03:30 AM
i wonder what everyone thinks mitt romney will do once he gets in?
maybe he has changed his stance on gambling, but he has hated all forms of gambling for years, at least 30 years that i know of. What difference does it make? Democrats had control of the White house and Congress from 2008-2010 and nothing changed as far as expanded gambling goes (online or not). With that in mind, Mitt Romney will make no difference either way.
This whole myth that Republicans are somehow bad for gambling is just that ...a myth! They are no better or worse than Dems.
raybo
11-01-2011, 07:26 AM
Hello Ray, aren't there any OTB near where you live? I am real sorry for what's going on out there in Texas
To my knowledge, there are no OTBs in Texas.
Canarsie
11-01-2011, 07:29 AM
What difference does it make? Democrats had control of the White house and Congress from 2008-2010 and nothing changed as far as expanded gambling goes (online or not). With that in mind, Mitt Romney will make no difference either way.
This whole myth that Republicans are somehow bad for gambling is just that ...a myth! They are no better or worse than Dems.
Agree 100% Florida could be a prime example. They want to expand gambling and both houses are in control by republicans. It's all about additional revenue in this economy both sides have to look at it to reduce the states budget deficits.
Does anyone actually think Reid and Heller aren't on the same page when it comes to gambling?
Charli125
11-01-2011, 12:15 PM
I realize that this is a very unpopular opinion but:
I'm convinced the reason for the sorry state of the sport is because there is OTB.
If folks don't start going to the track again horse racing is done.
By that logic, online poker should've destroyed brick and mortar poker. It didn't, and it actually increased brick and mortar poker playing.
The idea that people will go to the track on a Tuesday and bet as much as they would online is ridiculous. I love reading the comments from people who will stop betting if they can't bet online. I'm in the same boat. Like most horseplayers, I have a day-job. I can find the time to put bets in online, but there's no chance that I'll be able to head to the track every day to put in bets.
Dave said it very well earlier in this thread. Progress happens and this industry needs to advance rather than trying to get things back the way they were in the "good old days".
highnote
11-01-2011, 02:47 PM
Dave said it very well earlier in this thread. Progress happens and this industry needs to advance rather than trying to get things back the way they were in the "good old days".
I agree. Some in racetrack management should take at least one minute to pull their heads out of their arses and try to understand what bettors want and give it to them rather than try to force bettors to do something they have no interest in doing.
I don't know about other Texans, but I'd rather not bet than to be told where and when I can bet. I apologize in advance for my use of a British expression, but to those who would try to force Texas' betting rules on me -- you can go piss off.
And in case you don't know what that means... Wikitionary says... "To leave, to go away. [from mid-20th c.]"
raybo
11-01-2011, 03:14 PM
By that logic, online poker should've destroyed brick and mortar poker. It didn't, and it actually increased brick and mortar poker playing.
The idea that people will go to the track on a Tuesday and bet as much as they would online is ridiculous. I love reading the comments from people who will stop betting if they can't bet online. I'm in the same boat. Like most horseplayers, I have a day-job. I can find the time to put bets in online, but there's no chance that I'll be able to head to the track every day to put in bets.
Dave said it very well earlier in this thread. Progress happens and this industry needs to advance rather than trying to get things back the way they were in the "good old days".
I guarantee you that, had online wagering not happened, racing would have been gone several years ago.
Online wagering increased handle at all tracks, who provided signals to ADWs. And online wagering, the last I heard, was the only growth segment in the industry.
As I said before, states, racing associations, horsemen's associations, and tracks should embrace online wagering, not try to shut it down. They're "burning down the barn to kill the rats".
mannyberrios
11-01-2011, 04:44 PM
I guarantee you that, had online wagering not happened, racing would have been gone several years ago.
Online wagering increased handle at all tracks, who provided signals to ADWs. And online wagering, the last I heard, was the only growth segment in the industry.
As I said before, states, racing associations, horsemen's associations, and tracks should embrace online wagering, not try to shut it down. They're "burning down the barn to kill the rats".I am nothing without my ADW
highnote
11-01-2011, 04:58 PM
I am nothing without my ADW
This is a political problem and therefore requires a political solution.
RainMan
11-01-2011, 05:35 PM
Before Texas House Bill 2271, I had free PP's, free race replays and the ability to play ADW sponsored handicapping contests.
Today, I have a 100 mile round trip to the nearest track, parking and seating expenses, costs of PP's and replays and am not able to play TwinSpires and XpressBet handicapping contests.
garyscpa
11-01-2011, 06:23 PM
Before Texas House Bill 2271, I had free PP's, free race replays and the ability to play ADW sponsored handicapping contests.
Today, I have a 100 mile round trip to the nearest track, parking and seating expenses, costs of PP's and replays and am not able to play TwinSpires and XpressBet handicapping contests.
I thought Xpressbet still accepted Texas accounts.
RainMan
11-01-2011, 07:44 PM
All the major ADW's still accept Texas accounts - the problem is that as of Sept. 1st it is illegal for Texans to use them.
raybo
11-01-2011, 09:54 PM
Here's a reply I received to my email to Chuck Trout, the director of the Texas Racing Commission. I have also posted my response to his email.
Mr. Baker,
I appreciate your email and the concern you express for racing in Texas.
As a regulatory agency, the Commission’s responsibility is to apply and enforce the Racing Act as passed and amended by the Texas Legislature. By law, the Commission cannot and does not advocate for or against legislation, including legislation related to ADW transactions.
The Texas Racing Act has long specified that pari-mutuel wagers in Texas may only be taken within the enclosure of a Texas track. Moreover, ADW transactions have always been illegal in Texas.
The law apparently was not clear enough for some, however, as a few companies began to accept ADW transactions from Texans. These illegal ADW transactions never have generated revenue for the Texas tracks, horsemen, breed organizations or public and, to the extent that they decreased attendance, they damaged the industry. Only the entity offering the illegal activity ever profited from these transactions.
During the most recent Legislative session, the Commission underwent Sunset Review. According to the Sunset Commission’s website, a Sunset Review:
creates a unique opportunity for the Legislature to look closely at each agency and make fundamental changes to an agency's mission or operations if needed.
During the Sunset Review of the agency, all stakeholders — the tracks, horsemen, breed registries, members of the public, legislators, and other interested parties — provided input. The Sunset Agency Staff Report identified advanced deposit wagering as an item for Legislative attention. The following is taken directly from the Sunset Staff Report:
Recommendation 1.5: Clarify that all unlicensed entities are prohibited from accepting wagers placed by Texas residents.
The Legislature acted upon the Sunset recommendation, amending the Racing Act to remove any perceived ambiguity about ADW transactions. The law now makes it clear that ADW transactions with Texas residents are illegal. The Commission is obligated to enforce the law.
I hope that my comments adequately explain the Commission’s regulatory role. Please don’t hesitate to let me know if I can answer any questions for you. Thank you again for taking the time to write.
Sincerely,
Chuck Trout
Executive Director
Mr. Trout,
I appreciate your reply to my email.
The problem that the tracks, and the state, and other groups are experiencing, with lost revenue, is a result of the law that forced players from Texas who wished to wager on Texas tracks, to wager only physically at the tracks in Texas. Texas is a huge state and only has 3 thoroughbred tracks. As you can imagine, that meant that thousands of Texas players could no longer wager on Texas tracks, at all. They could not travel to Texas tracks to wager, due to the cost and time involved in traveling to a track that was distant from their home. Neither could they wager on Texas tracks via an ADW, which would have co-mingled those wagers with the pools at the Texas tracks. So, in effect, Texas law caused Texas players to be unable to wager on Texas tracks, thus, all the money they wagered went out of state.
That first law was the beginning of the end for Texas racing. This latest law is creating a ground roots campaign to boycott all Texas tracks, nationwide. So, not only will the law prevent Texans from wagering on out of state tracks, via an ADW, it appears well on its way to causing players all over the country to stop wagering on Texas tracks, at their local tracks and OTBs, as well as via ADWs.
Our Texas tracks are already in financial trouble, they cannot be expected to survive the loss of all Texan's ADW wagers, plus a good percentage of the all wagers they are presently receiving from players across the country.
When is someone, or some agency/association going to embrace ADW wagering, instead of trying to stop it. ADW wagering is the only growth segment in racing, the rest of the industry is in decline. We need to enable ADW wagering, not disable it, for the good of all tracks, state governments, horsemen's groups, jockeys, owners and breeders, track employees, and the most important group of all, the players. Without the players' money there will not be any of the other groups. The players pay all the bills, and get the least consideration.
Well, the players are about to show everyone what happens when there is no money in the pools.
You might want to start gathering some "horse friendly" colleagues and speak up, or you won't have a job much longer. After all, when Texas tracks close their doors, there will be no need for a racing commission.
Dave Schwartz
11-02-2011, 12:12 AM
Good answer, Ray.
Canarsie
11-02-2011, 07:43 AM
Excellent letter and I give Mr. Trout kudos for taking the time to answer in what was probably a time consuming reply. It sure sounds like he is only enforcing the law similar to jaywalking. Police usually don't issue tickets for that offense unless told to.
Nothing really needs to be changed it was well thought out. Just my opinion but it should be sent to your elected representatives, chairperson of the committee, and the Governor. The newspapers might be a good idea also if one picks up the ball it would be a huge plus.
Having others do the same thing can only help and not hurt.
Robert Goren
11-02-2011, 08:53 AM
The fourth paragragh from Mr. Trout's email makes it very clear who is behind this law.
"The law apparently was not clear enough for some, however, as a few companies began to accept ADW transactions from Texans. These illegal ADW transactions never have generated revenue for the Texas tracks, horsemen, breed organizations or public and, to the extent that they decreased attendance, they damaged the industry. Only the entity offering the illegal activity ever profited from these transactions."
Good luck fighting that bunch.
raybo
11-02-2011, 09:05 AM
The fourth paragragh from Mr. Trout's email makes it very clear who is behind this law.
"The law apparently was not clear enough for some, however, as a few companies began to accept ADW transactions from Texans. These illegal ADW transactions never have generated revenue for the Texas tracks, horsemen, breed organizations or public and, to the extent that they decreased attendance, they damaged the industry. Only the entity offering the illegal activity ever profited from these transactions."
Good luck fighting that bunch.
They can go broke, if they choose.
BuddyOscar
11-02-2011, 09:44 AM
So what is everyones opinions Texans should do here?
Shut down our ADW's and get out of the game entirely until they make it legal? Or just go on like nothing happened as they probably aren't going to come after individuals at any time?
garyscpa
11-02-2011, 08:00 PM
The point they fail to see is that the Texas government does get a percentage of every dollar bet on a Texas track through an ADW that commingles in the tracks pools.
Canarsie
11-02-2011, 08:40 PM
Have to admit that it's rare when I play a Texas track but now it's in the same status as California.
ZILCH!!!
precocity
11-03-2011, 06:48 AM
That first law was the beginning of the end for Texas racing. This latest law is creating a ground roots campaign to boycott all Texas tracks, nationwide. So, not only will the law prevent Texans from wagering on out of state tracks, via an ADW, it appears well on its way to causing players all over the country to stop wagering on Texas tracks, at their local tracks and OTBs, as well as via ADWs.
:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: dam Skippy!!!!!
take away my ts account and its on baby!!!!
Robert Goren
11-03-2011, 07:04 AM
This is a political problem and therefore requires a political solution. That it is. Boycotting is playing into their hands. Texans need to get invovled politically in order to get this changed. That is a big order and you are up against some heavy hitters. It will take time. If the ADWs stop taking Texans bets, you might consider moving.
raybo
11-03-2011, 08:06 AM
So what is everyones opinions Texans should do here?
Shut down our ADW's and get out of the game entirely until they make it legal? Or just go on like nothing happened as they probably aren't going to come after individuals at any time?
Boycott all Texas tracks, nationwide! Show Texas that no state can mess with the players without suffering consequences they won't like.
raybo
11-03-2011, 08:07 AM
Have to admit that it's rare when I play a Texas track but now it's in the same status as California.
ZILCH!!!
My thoughts exactly! :ThmbUp:
raybo
11-03-2011, 08:10 AM
That it is. Boycotting is playing into their hands. Texans need to get invovled politically in order to get this changed. That is a big order and you are up against some heavy hitters. It will take time. If the ADWs stop taking Texans bets, you might consider moving.
You're right, organizing "politically" will take a long time.
Boycotting will have an effect immediately.
precocity
11-03-2011, 09:09 AM
That it is. Boycotting is playing into their hands. Texans need to get invovled politically in order to get this changed. That is a big order and you are up against some heavy hitters. It will take time. If the ADWs stop taking Texans bets, you might consider moving.
robert when lone star parked first open up the track was packed as hell but then after the breeders cup they started charging out the azz just to do anything in that place? hell i think a beer is 6bucks, the other problem is 3hours away from DFW is Shreveport LA and one hour away is Oklahoma with to casinos on each entrance from Texas. the track treats you like crap and the casinos that also have horse racing simulcast treat you like a king. but my type of betting is the ponies could care less about the casinos that's why i love to chill and bet from home hell with my stable alert and all the info i get for free on the Internet i do a millions times better now than i did at the track..
Canarsie
11-03-2011, 09:19 AM
You're right, organizing "politically" will take a long time.
Boycotting will have an effect immediately.
Actually the "net" makes it much easier. Just think a few residents from your state can read what your doing here, print it out, and show it to other people who might be interested.
Let me start the ball running I actually love stuff like this.
Statewide Elected Officials
http://www.sos.state.tx.us/elections/voter/elected.shtml
Who Represents Me?
http://www.fyi.legis.state.tx.us/
House Members
http://www.house.state.tx.us/members/
List of Texas Senate Members
http://www.senate.state.tx.us/75r/senate/Members.htm
2nd Legislature First Called Session
Texas Legislature Online
http://www.legis.state.tx.us/Home.aspx
Hosshead
11-03-2011, 09:22 AM
Boycotts don't usually work. (But you can boycott Tx./Az. tracks to show support) And likewise, try to work through the legislative process.
So: ( ADW's Are You Reading This ?)
First - All ADW's refuse to take bets from ANY STATE on Texas and Az.tracks (let's not forget Az.), and take those tracks off the menu. (Maybe HANNA could help show the ADW's that the loss in revenue from players in other states (on Tx./Az. tracks) would be offset by the benefit to racing/horseplayers in the long term)
Texas Players - (unless you are really afraid of being prosucuted) - Continue to play through your ADW until the ADW decides it is forced to stop taking bets from Tx. residents. (remember, adw's are only temporarily still taking your bets from Tx.)
Force the Texas tracks to get ALL their wagers from the people they are forcing to attend Tx. tracks to bet.
We'll see how their bottom line is then.
In other words, if Texans can't use ADW's to bet wherever they want, then KILL Texas racing !!
Same with Az.
Robert Goren
11-03-2011, 09:42 AM
robert when lone star parked first open up the track was packed as hell but then after the breeders cup they started charging out the azz just to do anything in that place? hell i think a beer is 6bucks, the other problem is 3hours away from DFW is Shreveport LA and one hour away is Oklahoma with to casinos on each entrance from Texas. the track treats you like crap and the casinos that also have horse racing simulcast treat you like a king. but my type of betting is the ponies could care less about the casinos that's why i love to chill and bet from home hell with my stable alert and all the info i get for free on the Internet i do a millions times better now than i did at the track.. My experence with racinos is that as long as you stay in the casino they treat you well, but as soon as you wonder over into the racing side they treat you like crap. My experence is somewhat limited. I have only been to 3 racinos but from what I hear, that is pretty much true almost everywhere. I have never been to casino that has a simulcast center without live racing at least some of the time (except in Vegas 20 years ago), so I can't comment on them.
I agree ADWs are the way to bet. You give up somethings from live races(like getting a good look at the horses), but they are way better than simulcast centers in almost everyway.
I wish you luck in your fight to be able bet with ADWs in Texas.
Robert Goren
11-03-2011, 09:49 AM
Boycotts don't usually work. (But you can boycott Tx./Az. tracks to show support) And likewise, try to work through the legislative process.
So: ( ADW's Are You Reading This ?)
First - All ADW's refuse to take bets from ANY STATE on Texas and Az.tracks (let's not forget Az.), and take those tracks off the menu. (Maybe HANNA could help show the ADW's that the loss in revenue from players in other states (on Tx./Az. tracks) would be offset by the benefit to racing/horseplayers in the long term)
Texas Players - (unless you are really afraid of being prosucuted) - Continue to play through your ADW until the ADW decides it is forced to stop taking bets from Tx. residents. (remember, adw's are only temporarily still taking your bets from Tx.)
Force the Texas tracks to get ALL their wagers from the people they are forcing to attend Tx. tracks to bet.
We'll see how their bottom line is then.
In other words, if Texans can't use ADW's to bet wherever they want, then KILL Texas racing !!
Same with Az.The problem with a boycott is that the tracks get such a small % of an ADW bet that it doesn't effect very much.
Charli125
11-03-2011, 11:25 AM
Boycotting will have an effect immediately.
I hope you're right, but we're still waiting to see the impact of the CA boycott. No doubt it affected handle, but we haven't seen much movement from the CA higher-ups to reverse the trend.
That being said, I've taken the TX tracks off of my play list. I've done the same for AZ, and CA.
I hope that some day horseplayers can band together like the Poker Player's Alliance and put some serious pressure on jurisdictions that make anti-player moves. If it doesn't happen soon, I'm going to be left only playing 3-4 states.
raybo
11-03-2011, 11:28 AM
Boycotts don't usually work. (But you can boycott Tx./Az. tracks to show support) And likewise, try to work through the legislative process.
So: ( ADW's Are You Reading This ?)
First - All ADW's refuse to take bets from ANY STATE on Texas and Az.tracks (let's not forget Az.), and take those tracks off the menu. (Maybe HANNA could help show the ADW's that the loss in revenue from players in other states (on Tx./Az. tracks) would be offset by the benefit to racing/horseplayers in the long term)
Texas Players - (unless you are really afraid of being prosucuted) - Continue to play through your ADW until the ADW decides it is forced to stop taking bets from Tx. residents. (remember, adw's are only temporarily still taking your bets from Tx.)
Force the Texas tracks to get ALL their wagers from the people they are forcing to attend Tx. tracks to bet.
We'll see how their bottom line is then.
In other words, if Texans can't use ADW's to bet wherever they want, then KILL Texas racing !!
Same with Az.
Absolutely!
Boycotts will work if it decreases the amount of handle nationwide. Just Texans boycotting will have little effect because we haven't been able to bet on Texas tracks, via an ADW, for years, so our boycotting won't remove money from pools.
This has to be a nationwide boycott, of Texas tracks, to work (Arizona tracks too, and Cali for that matter)
raybo
11-03-2011, 11:33 AM
The problem with a boycott is that the tracks get such a small % of an ADW bet that it doesn't effect very much.
The vast majority of Texas track handle is from out of state simulcasting and ADW wagers. A nationwide boycott will reduce the pools to only Texans physically wagering within a Texas track, a dramatic decrease in handle.
Dave Schwartz
11-03-2011, 11:34 AM
I hope you're right, but we're still waiting to see the impact of the CA boycott. No doubt it affected handle, but we haven't seen much movement from the CA higher-ups to reverse the trend.
And you probably won't. They simply do not have "lowering the take" in their playbook. A shame, really.
BTW, what's wrong with TUP?
Robert Goren
11-03-2011, 11:37 AM
I hope you're right, but we're still waiting to see the impact of the CA boycott. No doubt it affected handle, but we haven't seen much movement from the CA higher-ups to reverse the trend.
That being said, I've taken the TX tracks off of my play list. I've done the same for AZ, and CA.
I hope that some day horseplayers can band together like the Poker Player's Alliance and put some serious pressure on jurisdictions that make anti-player moves. If it doesn't happen soon, I'm going to be left only playing 3-4 states. I belong to the PPA. So far we haven't gotten to first base trying legalize online poker. We haven't even gotten a bill to the floor of either house of congress. We got one bill out of a house committee, but it was never put to a vote and died the republicans took over the house this year. My religious nut of a congressman won't even respond to letters and emails. It is not easy fight to win.
Charli125
11-03-2011, 11:40 AM
BTW, what's wrong with TUP?
It's a felony for AZ residents to bet through an ADW. It's a horrible law, which I belive was introduced by TUP. If not TUP then it was another AZ track. Several HANA members spent a lot of time trying to find a solution, but currently the law still stands.
Robert Goren
11-03-2011, 11:42 AM
The vast majority of Texas track handle is from out of state simulcasting and ADW wagers. A nationwide boycott will reduce the pools to only Texans physically wagering within a Texas track, a dramatic decrease in handle.The out of state handle could fall by quite a bit and still not effect the bottom line by very much. How much of an ADW wagered dollar do you think goes to the track?
Charli125
11-03-2011, 11:42 AM
I belong to the PPA. So far we haven't gotten to first base trying legalize online poker. We haven't even gotten a bill to the floor of either house of congress. We got one bill out of a house committee, but it was never put to a vote and died the republicans took over the house this year. My religious nut of a congressman won't even respond to letters and emails. It is not easy fight to win.
I agree that they haven't had much success, and the latest issues haven't helped. That being said, whenever there is a poker related issue, all of the players band together and make a joint effort. Despite the lack of success I think it will come eventually.
Poker definitely has a better chance of having their voice heard than racing does right now.
Jeff P
11-03-2011, 12:16 PM
BTW, what's wrong with TUP?In 2007, AZ Tracks and horsemen successfully lobbied for a new state law making it a felony to bet a horse race either by phone or by internet from "outside the racing enclosure." That law did not drive players back to the track as had been hoped. The primary effect of that law was to turn a lot of players into ex-players (as well as drumming up some new business for offshore books.)
Starting with their 2011 fall meet, WPS takeout at Turf Paradise was increased from 20.00% to 20.75%.
(I guess they didn't think 20% WPS takeout was high enough.)
-jp
.
FiveWide
11-03-2011, 02:06 PM
In 2007, AZ Tracks and horsemen successfully lobbied for a new state law making it a felony to bet a horse race either by phone or by internet from "outside the racing enclosure." .
The above is what boggles me. And apparently the TX tracks, horsemen etc are behind the new law in TX too. Why would they want to try and kill the industry that feeds them?
I've heard some ppl suggest creating ADWs in TX. If TX gets either nill or next to nill from out of state ADWs sounds like creating them in TX would be the way to go. Does anyone know if that has been talked about in either AZ or TX? What would it take to get them? Heck, even OTB would work I think but at least in TX there are none.
-Five
Jeff P
11-03-2011, 03:01 PM
I can't speak for TX...
But I can say with 100% certainty that I helped craft a proposal that would have allowed ADW wagering for AZ residents - and then sat in on meetings where the AZ HBPA and Yavapai Downs presented that joint proposal to the AZ Dept of Racing. (Btw, Turf Paradise was opposed to the idea.)
What really killed it though wasn't resistance from Turf Paradise but resistance from the Attorney General and Governor's offices to the idea of having to go on record as wanting to reverse a state law that dealt with gambling so soon after having enacted it on behalf of tracks and horsemen...
Truly a case of "Be careful what you wish for."
-jp
.
Dave Schwartz
11-03-2011, 03:55 PM
Thanks for the explanation, Charlie and Jeff.
Makes perfect sense now.
So, we take CA, AZ, TX out of the loop. What other states are the bad guy list and why?
Hosshead
11-03-2011, 05:20 PM
Ca. residents ARE allowed to bet through some ADW's (TS/Expressbet) on tracks both in Ca. and most other states.
It's Tx. and Az. tracks that should be "locked out" by ALL ADW's.
Jeff P
11-03-2011, 05:22 PM
States enacting anti player measures within the past few years... Virginia comes to mind.
Virginia enacted a 10% source market fee on Virginia ADW customers.
For those who might not know, VA law defines the source market area as the entire state and imposes a 10% fee on handle generated by those unfortunate enough to live in the source market area.
The added 10% raises the wholesale cost of a bet to the point where rebating back to players and/or takeout reductions in ANY form are made all but impossible.
Washington is another state that comes to mind where state law defines the entire state as the source market area (there are others including CA.)
Getting this type of thing written into state law doesn't happen because lawmakers think it would be a good idea and/or in the best public interest. (It's actually a horrible idea for the customer.)
State laws of this nature happen because special interest groups (tracks and horsemen) lobby for them quietly and behind the scenes - without players in the source market area even knowing what is taking place until it is too late.
Players everywhere really need to wake up and become more actively involved in fighting this type of thing (if we are ever to effect change.)
Until or unless we do, we have nobody to blame but ourselves.
-jp
.
Robert Goren
11-03-2011, 05:39 PM
Go to a site like Xpressbet and take look at which states they do or they don't take accounts from. If they don't take accounts from a state it is because there is a law against it. A couple of states like NE are grey areas. NJ (might be others)has it own ADW and doesn't allow other in. More states than not are in the "don't" group.
Charli125
11-03-2011, 05:44 PM
Washington is another state that comes to mind where state law defines the entire state as the source market area (there are others including CA.)
Here are the specifics on the 6.5% Source Market Fee that's a part of WA state law. FYI, I've spoken with all of my representatives and several have expressed an interest in looking into it. It'll be difficult without much support in WA, but after this next election here, I'll be making a trip to Olympia to meet with each of my representatives.
http://www.whrc.wa.gov/dictionary.php (It's the last entry on the page)
Here's the breakdown:
10% to the racing commission
2.5% to the WA Bred Owners & Breeders Fund
87.5% goes to Emerald Downs
Out of the 10% to the state:
2.5% to the WA Bred Owners & Breeders Fund
1.5% to the purse account
7% to overheads
For a grand total of:
7% to racing commission overheads
5% to the WA Bred Owners & Breeders Fund
1.5% to the purse account
87.5% to Emerald Downs
Track Collector
11-03-2011, 06:10 PM
States are not the only ones who can establish player-unfriendly policies. Entities such as Monarch and Troutnet, which negotiate for the Magna and CDI-content tracks, can be just as bad or even worse. For some ADWs they slap a huge source-market fee for residents in states (such as Maryland) where the Magna and CDI tracks are located, thus making rebating impossible. I fear that this policy, along with much higher signal fees, will be soon implemented with ALL ADWs except their own wagering platforms like Twinspires and XPressBet (and perhaps the very big boys like RGS / Elite Turf Club).
This source-market fee is particularly annoying as the nearest track or MD Off-Track-Wagering facility for me is now about 80 miles away. :mad: Maybe I should start thinking about off-shore and/or RGS / Elite Turf Club.
Charli125
11-03-2011, 06:15 PM
States are not the only ones who can establish player-unfriendly policies. Entities such as Monarch and Troutnet, which negotiate for the Magna and CDI-content tracks, can be just as bad or even worse. For some ADWs they slap a huge source-market fee for residents in states (such as Maryland) where the Magna and CDI tracks are located, thus making rebating impossible. I fear that this policy, along with much higher signal fees, will be soon implemented with ALL ADWs except their own wagering platforms like Twinspires and XPressBet (and perhaps the very big boys like RGS / Elite Turf Club).
Excellent point. We were specifically talking about states so I figured I'd leave it at that. If we start branching out from unfriendly laws to unfriendly entities the list would be enormous. Monarch & Tracknet, I mean Troutnet are the mere tip of the iceberg.
garyscpa
11-03-2011, 08:15 PM
The problem with a boycott is that the tracks get such a small % of an ADW bet that it doesn't effect very much.
Yes, I think the track gets a smaller percentage, but the state gets the same percentage.
raybo
11-04-2011, 08:23 AM
Well, I haven't received a response to my last email to Chuck Trout. So, he's either ignoring me now, or, what I said scared him, regarding the possibility of The Racing Commission and his job going away.
I hope it's the latter.
Some here say that out of state wagers won't have a large enough effect on Texas racing. I say that it will negatively affect every racing entity in the state. And, that's what we need. Everyone involved in receiving a piece of the pie from Texas racing needs to find out the Texas racing industry cannot survive without dollars from out of state wagers.
Just compare "on track" handle to "off track" handle at your favorite track and then tell me that off track handle decline wouldn't spell doom for that track, and everyone else getting a piece of that pie.
Robert Goren
11-04-2011, 08:58 AM
Yes, I think the track gets a smaller percentage, but the state gets the same percentage.
I don't know what the state cut of the handle is in Texas, but most states it is 2% or less. In many cases it is 1% or less. It barely covers the cost the state racing commisions and their programs to prevent to cheating. It is not a huge source of revenue for the state. That is a misconception a lot of bettors have. I am also not as sure as you seem to be that the state gets the same % on ADW and out of state simulcast wagers either. Good luck in try to track that information down. I spent most of a day once trying to google it with very limited results.
Hosshead
11-05-2011, 06:41 AM
Well, I haven't received a response to my last email to Chuck Trout. So, he's either ignoring me now, or, what I said scared him, regarding the possibility of The Racing Commission and his job going away.
I hope it's the latter.
Some here say that out of state wagers won't have a large enough effect on Texas racing. I say that it will negatively affect every racing entity in the state. And, that's what we need. Everyone involved in receiving a piece of the pie from Texas racing needs to find out the Texas racing industry cannot survive without dollars from out of state wagers.
Just compare "on track" handle to "off track" handle at your favorite track and then tell me that off track handle decline wouldn't spell doom for that track, and everyone else getting a piece of that pie.
That's what I was talking about, exactly.
But we need the ADW's to cooperate, and take these tracks OFF the menu. That's all
mannyberrios
11-05-2011, 07:53 PM
Some of these ADW have alot of money, and I think some power. I think that maybe they can help in some way
raybo
11-06-2011, 06:33 AM
Some of these ADW have alot of money, and I think some power. I think that maybe they can help in some way
Well, we have a couple of members here who are involved with ADWs, let's see if they will respond to this.
startngate
11-06-2011, 11:03 AM
That's what I was talking about, exactly.
But we need the ADW's to cooperate, and take these tracks OFF the menu. That's all
Several ADWs that take Texas residents did not take the Lone Star QH meet, which was the first meet that started after the law went in to effect.
raybo
11-06-2011, 11:12 AM
Several ADWs that take Texas residents did not take the Lone Star QH meet, which was the first meet that started after the law went in to effect.
Good deal!! That's what it's going to take to bring attention to the ridiculousness of Texas', and other states', internet racing laws.
ranchwest
11-07-2011, 11:59 AM
The above is what boggles me. And apparently the TX tracks, horsemen etc are behind the new law in TX too. Why would they want to try and kill the industry that feeds them?
I've heard some ppl suggest creating ADWs in TX. If TX gets either nill or next to nill from out of state ADWs sounds like creating them in TX would be the way to go. Does anyone know if that has been talked about in either AZ or TX? What would it take to get them? Heck, even OTB would work I think but at least in TX there are none.
-Five
In the case of Lone Star Park, they are not interested in wagering revenues at all. They make their money off of food and beverages, seating and other non-wagering sources.
I heard the chef at Lone Star say that he bought Mavs playoffs tickets at $1,000 a pop. He must be doing pretty well.
So, don't expect for anyone in Texas to start an ADW.
In response to other posts:
It is my understanding that it is illegal under Texas law for Texas residents to wager on Texas tracks or for any entity not licensed by Texas to accept wagers from Texas residents. So, it is not illegal for an individual to wager online for non-Texas races. Texas obviously hasn't thought through that residents are sending their wagering money out of state when they could also wager on Texas tracks if Texas allowed.
raybo
11-07-2011, 12:28 PM
In the case of Lone Star Park, they are not interested in wagering revenues at all. They make their money off of food and beverages, seating and other non-wagering sources.
I heard the chef at Lone Star say that he bought Mavs playoffs tickets at $1,000 a pop. He must be doing pretty well.
So, don't expect for anyone in Texas to start an ADW.
In response to other posts:
It is my understanding that it is illegal under Texas law for Texas residents to wager on Texas tracks or for any entity not licensed by Texas to accept wagers from Texas residents. So, it is not illegal for an individual to wager online for non-Texas races. Texas obviously hasn't thought through that residents are sending their wagering money out of state when they could also wager on Texas tracks if Texas allowed.
The last paragraph in your post refers to the previous law, ie residents wagering on Texas tracks via ADWs. This new law makes it illegal for a resident to wager via an ADW period. Which means that all tracks, nationwide, will lose all Texas money now coming from ADWs.
ranchwest
11-07-2011, 12:34 PM
The last paragraph in your post refers to the previous law, ie residents wagering on Texas tracks via ADWs. This new law makes it illegal for a resident to wager via an ADW period. Which means that all tracks, nationwide, will lose all Texas money now coming from ADWs.
It is my understanding that the prohibition is for accepting wagers from Texas residents and Texas residents wagering on Texas races. I didn't read anything that said that a Texas citizen was in violation of Texas law by wagering on out-of-state tracks online.
raybo
11-07-2011, 01:25 PM
It is my understanding that the prohibition is for accepting wagers from Texas residents and Texas residents wagering on Texas races. I didn't read anything that said that a Texas citizen was in violation of Texas law by wagering on out-of-state tracks online.
Chuck Trout made that quite clear in his email response to me that I posted earlier, no ADW wagering on any tracks, anywhere.
Charli125
11-07-2011, 01:43 PM
It is my understanding that the prohibition is for accepting wagers from Texas residents and Texas residents wagering on Texas races. I didn't read anything that said that a Texas citizen was in violation of Texas law by wagering on out-of-state tracks online.
Here are a couple of excerpts from the article which make it clear that it's all ADW/Phone wagering on all tracks by Texas citizens.
The Texas Racing Commission has begun informing out-of-state wagering companies that it's now illegal to accept online horse or greyhound bets from Texas.
ADW accounts siphon revenue from Texas tracks and Texas governance. A Texan wagering from home on a New York race through a Kentucky ADW account excludes Texas from the transaction. This state gets a revenue slice only if that race occurs at a Texas track.
ranchwest
11-07-2011, 01:52 PM
Chuck Trout made that quite clear in his email response to me that I posted earlier, no ADW wagering on any tracks, anywhere.
From Chuck Trout's email:
The law now makes it clear that ADW transactions with Texas residents are illegal.
It is the ADW that is in violation, not the resident. They know they can't spend the money to enforce against residents so they didn't bother to try. Apparently the ADW's know Texas can't spend the money to enforce against ADW's, either.
ranchwest
11-07-2011, 01:54 PM
Here are a couple of excerpts from the article which make it clear that it's all ADW/Phone wagering on all tracks by Texas citizens.
The Texas Racing Commission has begun informing out-of-state wagering companies that it's now illegal to accept online horse or greyhound bets from Texas.
ADW accounts siphon revenue from Texas tracks and Texas governance. A Texan wagering from home on a New York race through a Kentucky ADW account excludes Texas from the transaction. This state gets a revenue slice only if that race occurs at a Texas track.
What in that suggests to you that a citizen can be in violation?
Charli125
11-08-2011, 10:28 AM
What in that suggests to you that a citizen can be in violation?
http://www.txrc.state.tx.us/laws/9-1-2011_ReplacementPgs_RacingAct.pdf
Read Page 53, Section 11.05.
"A person shall not wager on the result of a greyhound race or horse race in this state except as permitted by this act."
I don't think they would prosecute, but that doesn't mean it's legal.
garyscpa
11-08-2011, 01:18 PM
http://www.txrc.state.tx.us/laws/9-1-2011_ReplacementPgs_RacingAct.pdf
Read Page 53, Section 11.05.
"A person shall not wager on the result of a greyhound race or horse race in this state except as permitted by this act."
I would interpret the "in this state" to refer to the greyhound or horse race, and not the person.
Charli125
11-08-2011, 02:57 PM
I would interpret the "in this state" to refer to the greyhound or horse race, and not the person.
It seems obvious to me that when they specifically state, "a person", they're making it clear that "people" are not allowed to wager except through their approved methods. By making it illegal for ADW's to take customers from TX, the end result is the same no matter what the law says.
What is not up for debate is that the majority of horseplayers in Texas will no longer be able to bet through an ADW. That's bad for racing and that's horrible for Texas racing.
mannyberrios
11-08-2011, 03:49 PM
It seems obvious to me that when they specifically state, "a person", they're making it clear that "people" are not allowed to wager except through their approved methods. By making it illegal for ADW's to take customers from TX, the end result is the same no matter what the law says.
What is not up for debate is that the majority of horseplayers in Texas will no longer be able to bet through an ADW. That's bad for racing and that's horrible for Texas racing.
The majority, or everybody
Charli125
11-08-2011, 04:23 PM
The majority, or everybody
I say the majority because there will be some ADW's that continue to take customers despite the law. For someone, it'll be worth the risk.
I could also see someone like Twinspires using their considerable lobbying dollars to get some sort of deal worked out or something along those lines. It certainly wouldn't be the shadiest thing they've ever done.
Canarsie
11-08-2011, 07:05 PM
I say the majority because there will be some ADW's that continue to take customers despite the law. For someone, it'll be worth the risk.
I could also see someone like Twinspires using their considerable lobbying dollars to get some sort of deal worked out or something along those lines. It certainly wouldn't be the shadiest thing they've ever done.
Good point the only reason they wouldn't is if they don't have a large enough base that wagers a certain amount of predetermined money. Otherwise it may not be cost effective.
You write good stuff keep it up. :ThmbUp:
mannyberrios
11-08-2011, 08:22 PM
I say the majority because there will be some ADW's that continue to take customers despite the law. For someone, it'll be worth the risk.
I could also see someone like Twinspires using their considerable lobbying dollars to get some sort of deal worked out or something along those lines. It certainly wouldn't be the shadiest thing they've ever done.
I had said before that I am nothing without an ADW. I pray to god that you are right
FiveWide
11-08-2011, 10:12 PM
So what should have happened is creation of ADWs in TX. Then a bill addressing interenet wagering saying something like if you're a person in TX and want to wager via the internet you must use an ADW company based in TX. They can still disallow out of state ADWs from accepting wagers from TX residents but honestly I wouldn't think they would need that as most if not all TX residents would gladly switch to a TX based ADW. Sounds like a win win for all parties.
-Five
... I wouldn't think they would need that as most if not all TX residents would gladly switch to a TX based ADW. Sounds like a win win for all parties.
-Five
I guess it depends on what they have to offer. There are big differences between ADWs.
precocity
11-09-2011, 07:04 AM
what happens if i got some dam IRS tickets this year from twin spires and now its illegal to bet from Texas? :confused:
ranchwest
11-11-2011, 08:31 AM
I would interpret the "in this state" to refer to the greyhound or horse race, and not the person.
Exactly. The prohibition does not extend to individuals wagering on non-Texas racing.
Robert Goren
11-11-2011, 08:34 AM
So what should have happened is creation of ADWs in TX. Then a bill addressing interenet wagering saying something like if you're a person in TX and want to wager via the internet you must use an ADW company based in TX. They can still disallow out of state ADWs from accepting wagers from TX residents but honestly I wouldn't think they would need that as most if not all TX residents would gladly switch to a TX based ADW. Sounds like a win win for all parties.
-FiveThat what NJ has. There is fair amount of bitching about it on this forum, but it beats not being able to bet at all.
ranchwest
11-11-2011, 08:39 AM
I say the majority because there will be some ADW's that continue to take customers despite the law. For someone, it'll be worth the risk.
I could also see someone like Twinspires using their considerable lobbying dollars to get some sort of deal worked out or something along those lines. It certainly wouldn't be the shadiest thing they've ever done.
Shady?
It is Texas who is prohibited from making laws regarding interstate commerce.
Charli125
11-11-2011, 11:01 AM
Shady?
It is Texas who is prohibited from making laws regarding interstate commerce.
Yes, shady. If one ADW were to be able to LEGALLY circumvent this ruling in order to take all customers from the state of Texas, then that would be shady.
That was just a hypothetical that I mentioned because I could see them trying something like it.
Jeff P
11-11-2011, 03:02 PM
Mike Mayo is a horseplayer from Texas and someone who has earned my repsect. Last week I asked him if he wouldn't mind doing some digging into the reasons the Texas Racing Commission decided to go in this direction.
Here is a link to a .pdf doc where he explains his findings:
http://www.jcapper.com/messageboard/reports/TexasADWLaw.pdf
-jp
.
Charli125
11-11-2011, 05:12 PM
Mike Mayo is a horseplayer from Texas and someone who has earned my repsect. Last week I asked him if he wouldn't mind doing some digging into the reasons the Texas Racing Commission decided to go in this direction.
Here is a link to a .pdf doc where he explains his findings:
http://www.jcapper.com/messageboard/reports/TexasADWLaw.pdf
-jp
.
Thanks Jeff, that's very informative. It sounds to me like TX is screwed and there isn't much chance that ADW's will be able to legally take TX residents any time soon.
FiveWide
11-11-2011, 09:30 PM
That what NJ has. There is fair amount of bitching about it on this forum, but it beats not being able to bet at all.
That was my point. It may not be the best thing but it would beat not betting at all over the net.
-Five
FiveWide
11-11-2011, 09:39 PM
Mike Mayo is a horseplayer from Texas and someone who has earned my repsect. Last week I asked him if he wouldn't mind doing some digging into the reasons the Texas Racing Commission decided to go in this direction.
Here is a link to a .pdf doc where he explains his findings:
http://www.jcapper.com/messageboard/reports/TexasADWLaw.pdf
-jp
.
Jeff, my thanks to you and Mike for the info. As a TX resident I'm very concerned. Not sure what if anything can be done. I for one thought the tracks were behind it somehow and that I just couldn't understand.
-Five
raybo
11-11-2011, 10:09 PM
I figured as much, that's why I contacted Chuck Trout at the TRC first. His response pretty much said it all, he's being ordered to take the actions the TRC has taken.
I also, stated that if Texas ADW wagers cease it will drastically affect all tracks nationwide.
As of this time I think the ADWs are going to sit back and wait to see the TRC's next move. That's why I worded my reply to Chuck Trout's email the way I did. If he thinks that he might save his job by siding with the state, he's sadly mistaken.
Robert Goren
11-11-2011, 10:17 PM
So one time Tea Party hero Rick Perry is behind it. I glad someone besides me discovered that. If I had said it, the conservatives here would have been all over my case. Now maybe some of them will take a better look at a republicans stance on gambling before they vote. I think too many conservatives think that a general anti-government stance means that they would be pro gambling. It has been my experence that is seldom the case.
hplayer2
11-13-2011, 11:59 AM
So one time Tea Party hero Rick Perry is behind it. I glad someone besides me discovered that. If I had said it, the conservatives here would have been all over my case. Now maybe some of them will take a better look at a republicans stance on gambling before they vote. I think too many conservatives think that a general anti-government stance means that they would be pro gambling. It has been my experence that is seldom the case.
Agree 100%! Same as AZ. We have lived in both states and very glad to be gone for good. Many reasons for leaving but the difficulty of being an online horseplayer in AZ was unbearable. I stopped playing there after visiting Tup twice.
Now self-serving, ethically challanged Politicians seem intent upon destroying the sport, game, and the industry itself in Texas.
JMO.
Hp2
Hosshead
11-14-2011, 06:46 AM
If you want to show your support for fellow horseplayers in Texas and Arizona, ....
DO NOT DOWNLOAD the racefiles for these tracks again !
raybo
11-14-2011, 07:51 AM
If you want to show your support for fellow horseplayers in Texas and Arizona, ....
DO NOT DOWNLOAD the racefiles for these tracks again !
That's the bottom line. Screw Texas and Arizona tracks, let them try to stay open with just their on-track revenue!
raybo
11-14-2011, 07:59 AM
Think about it guys. A portion of the money that would normally go to Texas and Arizona tracks will now be going to YOUR favorite tracks!
This means additional revenue for those tracks, larger handle, larger pools, more dilution, which means lower priced false favorites resulting in higher priced value horses.
It's a no-brainer. You'll help yourself and maybe these 2 states will start asking players, What happened, what is wrong with the way we are doing things? And if they continue to be stupid, well that's their fault if the tracks there have to shut down.
Support tracks that support players.
Screw the rest of them.
Charli125
11-14-2011, 11:05 AM
Support tracks that support players.
That's it in a nutshell Tom. Well said.
facorsig
11-15-2011, 04:32 AM
I learned of this change earlier today when my ADW contacted me advising my account would be closed. I came here to PA to understand the issue. Remember, Texas is the state where alcohol sales are illegal on one side of the street, but the other side is lined with liquor stores.
Arcane horse racing laws are not new to Texas. When SHRP opened, the simulcast building was limited to a certain number of races or tracks. There was also a law that unless the end of the race was broadcast, wagers had to be refunded. This was another law that was never enforced even though I was plagued with losing tickets during a sunspot storm.
The issue of legality for Texas residents wagering through ADWs is quite old. I thought YouBet! was a risk taker in 1999 when they accepted my first ADW account. As a Texas Thoroughbred Association member, I can recall attending meetings where the revenue split of horse and dog racing was discussed from in-state and out-of-state perspectives. The presenter referenced which slices would be impacted by ADW wagers, "but of course those are illegal and I don't need to consider them".
We'll see how this plays out. Personally, I have taken an interlude from wagering due to the economy, but believe I have a right to wager on American horse races in any manner the federal government allows.
raybo
11-15-2011, 07:45 AM
I learned of this change earlier today when my ADW contacted me advising my account would be closed.
Which ADW?
Cholly
11-15-2011, 09:01 PM
I’m a Twinspires.com customer and a Texas resident. My read is that Twinspires is convinced that the state has no chance of making this stick.
They and the other major ADW’s have a HUGE stake in this. If they were in the least worried, wouldn’t they be giving us “scare” notifications, urging us to contact our state legislators? I’m no lawyer, but guess they are counting on being able to label this action by TX as a violation of interstate commerce protections--and prove it in court.
Canarsie
11-16-2011, 08:33 AM
I’m a Twinspires.com customer and a Texas resident. My read is that Twinspires is convinced that the state has no chance of making this stick.
They and the other major ADW’s have a HUGE stake in this. If they were in the least worried, wouldn’t they be giving us “scare” notifications, urging us to contact our state legislators? I’m no lawyer, but guess they are counting on being able to label this action by TX as a violation of interstate commerce protections--and prove it in court.
One good lobbyist is worth their weight in gold. I forgot the name of the person who does it for Betfair here in the states but I would wager he makes much more then any online host. He also handles their poker side trying to get favorable language into a bill.
The problem with urging people to write is that the huge majority doesn't. Nor do they stick together just look at California. I wonder how many people saying don't wager in Texas do on the left coast? This isn't a knock just would find the fact interesting. Most people don't care until it directly affects them.
Both CJ and I wrote letters to Keeneland about a ride. To the best of my knowledge we were the only two and there were lots of people commentating. I never received an answer back but if 98 other people joined in one would bet an "action" would have resulted.
Robert Goren
11-16-2011, 09:04 AM
I think the idea that Texas banning ADWs is somehow unconstitutional is crazy. A lot of states, not just TX and AZ, ban them. You are grasping at straws if you think you are going win that in court. If I lived in Texas and wanted to bet with an ADW and the ADWs stopped taking my bets, I would consider moving. There doesn't appear to be any other short term answers if the ADWs stop taking your bets. It will take years to change the law if you can even change the law at all.
thaskalos
11-16-2011, 10:35 AM
Both CJ and I wrote letters to Keeneland about a ride. To the best of my knowledge we were the only two and there were lots of people commentating. I never received an answer back but if 98 other people joined in one would bet an "action" would have resulted.
The fact that you never got an answer back is very telling, IMO...and I doubt that more letters would have had a different effect.
The horse racing industry has developed a very thick skin...and cannot be bothered by trivial things like customer complaints.
I have attended a couple of "open to the public" racing board meetings here in Illinois...and even took the podium once, to speak about the ills of the sport, and the reasons for its decline.
The board members were doing their best to keep from yawning.
IMO...the only "action" a letter-writting campaign would inspire, is a walk to the circular file...
Canarsie
11-16-2011, 11:03 AM
The fact that you never got an answer back is very telling, IMO...and I doubt that more letters would have had a different effect.
The horse racing industry has developed a very thick skin...and cannot be bothered by trivial things like customer complaints.
IMO...the only "action" a letter-writting campaign would inspire, is a walk to the circular file...
While I respect your opinion we agree to disagee.
I have written the NJSA and had executives call me back. One even told me if I ever had a problem contact him anytime. His number is in my cell phone though I never took him up on it.
Once it was an issue about them showing Australian racing on four screens and Balmoral on a side screen. The guy spent around 45 minutes with me talking about everything from opening night there to watching sports at the track. It was quite refreshing and interesting. It was from him I learned that it would be next to impossible to have slots in the original building the way it was wired.
Another time was about them displaying wrong amounts on a P4 ticket for harness. He took the time to explain that it was only an estimate with the Canadian dollar, the way certain pools are affected, and other stuff I forgot.
I also wrote an open letter to Stephen Burn of TVG and he responded that he would love to talk with me. It was almost 90 minutes he told me some things that blew my mind especially that in England you can watch the track of your choice of a sub channel of Betfair. It was just like two guys talking after a while.
Still have the emails from my state representative that cost the electric company a nice sum of around $250,000. It was from my first official internet provider brought back memories.
I'm big on letter writing it's just that most aren't. You would be surprised when a CEO or similar gets 5-100 letters how quick the reaction will be. Most only want to complain on here which is basically worthless.
My two cents from personal experience others may differ which is fine.
ElKabong
11-24-2011, 01:41 AM
Texans quit betting Texas tracks back when GW pushed the law through that banned residents from wagering on Texas tracks via the internet.
HANA, where are you?
Do they think anything positive will come from this?
Absolutely ridiculous!
Your comment on GW is offbase & inaccurate, Ray. I was online betting on Sam and Retama during his gov'ship, and a shortwhile thereafter. Brisbet allowed TX residents to bet Sam and Retama thru 2003 at least (when I bet online), and I could phonebet Sam and Retama via Brisbet thru 2006, at least.
ElKabong
11-24-2011, 03:00 AM
So one time Tea Party hero Rick Perry is behind it. I glad someone besides me discovered that. If I had said it, the conservatives here would have been all over my case. Now maybe some of them will take a better look at a republicans stance on gambling before they vote. I think too many conservatives think that a general anti-government stance means that they would be pro gambling. It has been my experence that is seldom the case.
no fan of Rick Perry here, but it's Mayo's opinion you're reading. Not some thorough study. Mayo's comments like "the Legislature and Mr Perry"...wtf? "The legislature" is a large mass of govt.
Mayo doesn't quote anyone, from anytime in his message. It's all opinion / guessing / 2nd hand info. If there were quotes it would be different.
He's entitled to his opinion of course, but to read his commentary / letter he seems to take a bit for granted.
Some of us have met Mayo in the past, i very breifly met him 10-12 yrs ago. We all have our favorite politicians and some we don't like, he's no different i'm sure.
Before you say I'm a Perry hack, you know from my posts I'm not.
Let's let the thing play out. When LS was purchased by Stronach everyone had their panties in a wad b/c the TRC demanded Xpressbet shut down ops in TX in order to complete the LS sale....Guess what, nothing happened to youbet or brisbet, the only 2 to take a stand against TX.... I'm guessing the same happens this go-around. A few weeks or months from now it'll be a pile of nothing, you'll be able to bet from home w/ few restrictions in TX.
btw it's a month after the OP and you can still bet online here. FiveWide or the other gent posting from Dallas made a point it would be impossible for the state to go after individuals (truth)...add to that, the state has much bigger fish to fry than ADW's.... Just chill.
Canarsie
11-24-2011, 07:00 AM
no fan of Rick Perry here, but it's Mayo's opinion you're reading. Not some thorough study. Mayo's comments like "the Legislature and Mr Perry"...wtf? "The legislature" is a large mass of govt.
Mayo doesn't quote anyone, from anytime in his message. It's all opinion / guessing / 2nd hand info. If there were quotes it would be different.
He's entitled to his opinion of course, but to read his commentary / letter he seems to take a bit for granted.
Some of us have met Mayo in the past, i very breifly met him 10-12 yrs ago. We all have our favorite politicians and some we don't like, he's no different i'm sure.
Before you say I'm a Perry hack, you know from my posts I'm not.
Let's let the thing play out. When LS was purchased by Stronach everyone had their panties in a wad b/c the TRC demanded Xpressbet shut down ops in TX in order to complete the LS sale....Guess what, nothing happened to youbet or brisbet, the only 2 to take a stand against TX.... I'm guessing the same happens this go-around. A few weeks or months from now it'll be a pile of nothing, you'll be able to bet from home w/ few restrictions in TX.
btw it's a month after the OP and you can still bet online here. FiveWide or the other gent posting from Dallas made a point it would be impossible for the state to go after individuals (truth)...add to that, the state has much bigger fish to fry than ADW's.... Just chill.
You make a good argument I'm buying it. Can't comment on the politics side since I don't read that but the points here are layed out well.
While I agree the state has "bigger fish to fry if an ADW gets a cease and desist order now I wonder what their reaction will be. Their legal department is a hundred times smarter then me just wonder if the risk reward ratio is worth it.
One would guess if nothing happens within six months this new law was just "fluff".
Robert Goren
11-24-2011, 07:13 AM
To tell you the truth, I really don't care much about Texas politics. There is one universal truth when it comes to state legestatures, No Law Gets Passed Unless Somebody Is Pushing Hard To Get It Passed. Somebody wanted to outlaw ADWs in Texas.
In Nebraska, they passed a law banning ADWs a number of years ago. It was very poorly worded and might not do what it was intended to do. Still Youbet dropped me when it was passed. Most ADWs won't touch a Nebraska resident, but a few do. If the law had been better written, none of them would. There is a bunch of states that ban them and no US based ADW takes their residents. Georgia and Missouri come mind off the top of my head. I really doubt that when all is said and done that very many ADWs will Texas bettors unless the law is changed.
Robert Goren
11-24-2011, 07:17 AM
You make a good argument I'm buying it. Can't comment on the politics side since I don't read that but the points here are layed out well.
While I agree the state has "bigger fish to fry if an ADW gets a cease and desist order now I wonder what their reaction will be. Their legal department is a hundred times smarter then me just wonder if the risk reward ratio is worth it.
One would guess if nothing happens within six months this new law was just "fluff". Name one state that has a law banning ADW betting and the US based ADWs ignore the law and take bets from that state anyway.
raybo
11-24-2011, 07:20 AM
Your comment on GW is offbase & inaccurate, Ray. I was online betting on Sam and Retama during his gov'ship, and a shortwhile thereafter. Brisbet allowed TX residents to bet Sam and Retama thru 2003 at least (when I bet online), and I could phonebet Sam and Retama via Brisbet thru 2006, at least.
I realize that, I was with Brisbet at that time, but other ADWs weren't letting Texans bet on Texas tracks.
raybo
11-24-2011, 07:32 AM
So, after 172 posts in this thread, how many of you have banned Texas tracks?
Canarsie
11-24-2011, 11:33 AM
Name one state that has a law banning ADW betting and the US based ADWs ignore the law and take bets from that state anyway.
TEXAS
To tell you the truth, I really don't care much about Texas politics. There is one universal truth when it comes to state legestatures, No Law Gets Passed Unless Somebody Is Pushing Hard To Get It Passed. Somebody wanted to outlaw ADWs in Texas.
In Nebraska, they passed a law banning ADWs a number of years ago. It was very poorly worded and might not do what it was intended to do. Still Youbet dropped me when it was passed. Most ADWs won't touch a Nebraska resident, but a few do. If the law had been better written, none of them would. There is a bunch of states that ban them and no US based ADW takes their residents. Georgia and Missouri come mind off the top of my head. I really doubt that when all is said and done that very many ADWs will Texas bettors unless the law is changed.
Can't you be a little bit positive on Thanksgiving Day?
You just stated a few outfits take accounts from Nebraska I stopped doing LSD over 40 years ago am I imagining what you said?
Please give me a time period instead of a vague "when all is said and done".
Jaywalking is illegal "when all is said and done" when will it be 100% enforced? The same applies to hitchhiking. Let me throw in going 8MPH over the speed limit on an interstate. When was the last time you received a ticket on a interstate going eight miles over?
One more thing is who has more brain power the ADW attorneys or you?
I answered that on my part already.
HAPPY THANKSGIVING ROBERT
ElKabong
11-24-2011, 12:28 PM
While I agree the state has "bigger fish to fry if an ADW gets a cease and desist order now I wonder what their reaction will be. Their legal department is a hundred times smarter then me just wonder if the risk reward ratio is worth it.
One would guess if nothing happens within six months this new law was just "fluff".
It'll be interesting to see how it plays out, but i doubt much w/ change from the status quo. A lil' background....
Back in 1999/ 2000, LS had the then ATTY GEN of Tx carry their water and make comments in the newspapers about how it's illegal to bet from home & it'd be hell to pay for bettors and ADWs alike...it was a big deal if you were a handicapper with an acct with an ADW......I remember calling Xpressbet (sharp lady, named Shirl if i recall), she said that their lawyers were very comfortable doing business in Tx with the way the law was written.....Youbet was less talkative, but basically told me "The law is what it is. We're not shutting down our business there".
Others did wind up closing shop on residents here, probably b/c they didn't want the hassle....But we all just migrated to youbet, Xpressbet.....when Stronach bought LS in 2002 Xpressbet refunded our $$ due to the T&C's of the sale.....The next week or so Brisbet sent emails to people like me with Xpressbet accts saying "join with us" basically.
Morale of the story, unless the law is completely re-written, nothing changes.
ElKabong
11-24-2011, 12:34 PM
There is one universal truth when it comes to state legestatures, No Law Gets Passed Unless Somebody Is Paying Big $$ To Get It Passed. .
fify
(there's a poster on this board who's an acquantance of mine, said a lot of his and others cash went to Pols just to get pari mutuel betting to a vote....took a lot of $$ to out bid the de Bartolo's on this issue back in the day....LA Downs did all they could to kill racing here before it could start.....and you know the same game is being played for Slot$ today....just the honest truth)
Dahoss2002
11-26-2011, 02:13 PM
[QUOTE=Robert Goren]To tell you the truth, I really don't care much about Texas politics. There is one universal truth when it comes to state legestatures, No Law Gets Passed Unless Somebody Is Pushing Hard To Get It Passed. Somebody wanted to outlaw ADWs in Texas.
When we got the riverboats here in Louisiana in 94, casinos paid money to certain so-called "consultants" to secure licenses. Some of these consultants, including a former governor who was just released this year, did a little "time". You gotta love politicians.
RainMan
12-01-2011, 09:29 AM
Still wondering how Texas Law views having an ADW account for playing tournaments only. Example: TwinSpires offers several on-line contests for members only with qualifying spots to the NHC or the HWS along with cash. However, most contests are mythical bets only. The recent law does not seem to indicate that Texas can't have an ADW account but rather you can't wager on races through them. By the way, Florida just brought back handicapping tournaments after several years of not allowing them.
raybo
12-01-2011, 11:02 AM
Still wondering how Texas Law views having an ADW account for playing tournaments only. Example: TwinSpires offers several on-line contests for members only with qualifying spots to the NHC or the HWS along with cash. However, most contests are mythical bets only. The recent law does not seem to indicate that Texas can't have an ADW account but rather you can't wager on races through them. By the way, Florida just brought back handicapping tournaments after several years of not allowing them.
According to Chuck's email to me, it has been illegal to wager via the internet, in Texas, for quite some time. I assume the law does not make it illegal to play"for free" via the internet. I assume this because it's not illegal, in Texas, to play poker online, for play chips.
RainMan
12-31-2011, 11:29 AM
Recently read the news about the US DoJ and the Wire Act. Even though this is way over my head and seems to be more about poker and the lottery, is it possible the this could lead to the reversal of HB 2271. I have been in a funk since cancelling my ADW account for fear that it is truly illegal to wager from Texas. Interesting information can be found at www.gamblingandthelaw.com (http://www.gamblingandthelaw.com).
highnote
01-01-2012, 01:54 AM
How many horse racing bettors from Texas have been fined or arrested for betting on horses over the internet? Reversal of HB 2271 is probably unnecessary for people who want to bet from Texas.
If you read the latest article from gamblingandthelaw you will find that most of the laws are aimed at bet takers, not bet makers.
Recently read the news about the US DoJ and the Wire Act. Even though this is way over my head and seems to be more about poker and the lottery, is it possible the this could lead to the reversal of HB 2271. I have been in a funk since cancelling my ADW account for fear that it is truly illegal to wager from Texas. Interesting information can be found at www.gamblingandthelaw.com (http://www.gamblingandthelaw.com).
Robert Goren
01-01-2012, 06:20 AM
Probably no Texas bettor will be arrested for betting at ADW. Although if I was a owner/executive with an ADW that took bets from Texas bettors, I would avoid visiting the state. The big thing for Texas bettors is that you have no legal recourse if the ADW decides to screw you like FTP did poker players. Just a couple of words of warning here.
raybo
01-01-2012, 08:37 AM
Probably no Texas bettor will be arrested for betting at ADW. Although if I was a owner/executive with an ADW that took bets from Texas bettors, I would avoid visiting the state. The big thing for Texas bettors is that you have no legal recourse if the ADW decides to screw you like FTP did poker players. Just a couple of words of warning here.
And another reason for boycotting all Texas tracks.
FiveWide
01-01-2012, 09:39 AM
fify
(there's a poster on this board who's an acquantance of mine, said a lot of his and others cash went to Pols just to get pari mutuel betting to a vote....took a lot of $$ to out bid the de Bartolo's on this issue back in the day....LA Downs did all they could to kill racing here before it could start.....and you know the same game is being played for Slot$ today....just the honest truth)
I was talking to my dad the other day. He said a politician told him the Bingo people are the reason slots don't get voted thru in TX. Bingo parlors are BIG in TX.
-Five
highnote
01-02-2012, 01:32 AM
Just because it is illegal for someone to bet from Texas doesn't mean it is legal for an out-of-state ADW to steal a Texas account holders money. I'm not a lawyer, but I think you would have recourse.
For example, it is illegal for someone to break into your home, but if you know someone has been breaking in or is going to break in, it doesn't mean you can put a spring triggered shotgun pointing at the door so that when the burglar breaks in he is pumped full of lead.
So just because an out of state ADW knows you're a Texas resident and it's illegal to bet from Texas it doesn't give the ADW the green light to steal your money!
Probably no Texas bettor will be arrested for betting at ADW. Although if I was a owner/executive with an ADW that took bets from Texas bettors, I would avoid visiting the state. The big thing for Texas bettors is that you have no legal recourse if the ADW decides to screw you like FTP did poker players. Just a couple of words of warning here.
Robert Goren
01-02-2012, 05:26 AM
Just because it is illegal for someone to bet from Texas doesn't mean it is legal for an out-of-state ADW to steal a Texas account holders money. I'm not a lawyer, but I think you would have recourse.
For example, it is illegal for someone to break into your home, but if you know someone has been breaking in or is going to break in, it doesn't mean you can put a spring triggered shotgun pointing at the door so that when the burglar breaks in he is pumped full of lead.
So just because an out of state ADW knows you're a Texas resident and it's illegal to bet from Texas it doesn't give the ADW the green light to steal your money!I was basing that statement on what happened to people who were defrauded by various online poker companies over the 15 years. Some well known and not so well known. Several people have tried to sue in several states and in federal court and as far as I know, all have had their cases thrown out. The cases have involved everything from down right fraud to sites refusing to pay off minors their winnings to people who used multiple identities. Your example might be right but I would count on it. Your case involved physical harm. This does not. As far I know, no one has every won a case when an illegal bookmaker refused to payoff a winning a bet either which probably is a more parallel example
mannyberrios
01-02-2012, 08:41 AM
I was basing that statement on what happened to people who were defrauded by various online poker companies over the 15 years. Some well known and not so well known. Several people have tried to sue in several states and in federal court and as far as I know, all have had their cases thrown out. The cases have involved everything from down right fraud to sites refusing to pay off minors their winnings to people who used multiple identities. Your example might be right but I would count on it. Your case involved physical harm. This does not. As far I know, no one has every won a case when an illegal bookmaker refused to payoff a winning a bet either which probably is a more parallel exampleThere is no chance that TS, or Expressbet, or any other ADW based in this country is going to keep anybody's money who lives in Texas. Give me a break
highnote
01-02-2012, 11:29 AM
Offshore poker or offshore ADWs that are not licensed by U.S. tracks could more easily steal your money, but as mannyberrios said, no U.S. ADW is going to steal your money without recourse.
As far as I know, collection of gambling debts between individuals are not enforceable. However, if you lose money gambling on credit at a casino I believe the collection of those debts are legal -- especially in a place like Las Vegas where casinos have more political clout.
I was basing that statement on what happened to people who were defrauded by various online poker companies over the 15 years. Some well known and not so well known. Several people have tried to sue in several states and in federal court and as far as I know, all have had their cases thrown out. The cases have involved everything from down right fraud to sites refusing to pay off minors their winnings to people who used multiple identities. Your example might be right but I would count on it. Your case involved physical harm. This does not. As far I know, no one has every won a case when an illegal bookmaker refused to payoff a winning a bet either which probably is a more parallel example
Robert Goren
01-02-2012, 12:02 PM
Offshore poker or offshore ADWs that are not licensed by U.S. tracks could more easily steal your money, but as mannyberrios said, no U.S. ADW is going to steal your money without recourse.
As far as I know, collection of gambling debts between individuals are not enforceable. However, if you lose money gambling on credit at a casino I believe the collection of those debts are legal -- especially in a place like Las Vegas where casinos have more political clout. I tried to google an answer to that question and could not get a good answer. As for the US ADWs stealing your money, I believe Andy Beyer among others lost money in one or maybe it was simulcast outlet. I know there is thread on this site about it someplace. In either case a state license is not a guarantee especially a licence issued by a state other than where you make the bet.
That being said, I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV and I didn't stay in a Holiday Express last night. All I am saying is that there may be some some risks involved here other than how the horses runs. Take for what it is worth.
highnote
01-02-2012, 01:12 PM
I remember Beyer losing money. I think that was at that Greyhound track in Vermont or New Hampshire or someplace like that. However, technically, they didn't steal it -- although, Beyer and other bettors might disagree! -- they used depositors money to pay expenses, rather than keeping bettors accounts separate.
NYRA owed Ernie Dahlman a million dollars at one point. Not sure if he ever got paid.
In both those cases, Beyer and Dahlman probably could have sued for damages. Maybe they did? I don't know. Or maybe they eventually got some or all of their money?
There are always risks -- even when you keep your money in the bank. It's a matter of how much risk there is, how willing you are to take the risk and how well you assess the risk.
I tried to google an answer to that question and could not get a good answer. As for the US ADWs stealing your money, I believe Andy Beyer among others lost money in one or maybe it was simulcast outlet. I know there is thread on this site about it someplace. In either case a state license is not a guarantee especially a licence issued by a state other than where you make the bet.
That being said, I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV and I didn't stay in a Holiday Express last night. All I am saying is that there may be some some risks involved here other than how the horses runs. Take for what it is worth.
mannyberrios
01-02-2012, 04:16 PM
I am sure that everybody in Texas who closed their accounts, or had their accounts (may god forgive whoevers stupid idea this was) closed got back their money in their accounts
Robert Goren
01-02-2012, 05:11 PM
I remember Beyer losing money. I think that was at that Greyhound track in Vermont or New Hampshire or someplace like that. However, technically, they didn't steal it -- although, Beyer and other bettors might disagree! -- they used depositors money to pay expenses, rather than keeping bettors accounts separate.
NYRA owed Ernie Dahlman a million dollars at one point. Not sure if he ever got paid.
In both those cases, Beyer and Dahlman probably could have sued for damages. Maybe they did? I don't know. Or maybe they eventually got some or all of their money?
There are always risks -- even when you keep your money in the bank. It's a matter of how much risk there is, how willing you are to take the risk and how well you assess the risk.If I was from Texas, I would probably have ADW account with someone who would take me. But I would keep my balance at lowest possible amount for me to operate the way I want. If you operating at very low postive ROI on your wagers, you might look in to not betting. If you are making money hand over fist and betting is the major source of your income, you might look into moving. The risks are small, but they might not be worth it. That is why so many successful internet poker pros have turned live action. Large amounts of money can go poof in the night. FTP was just the latest poker site to under.
As for Beyer and Dahlman, I am sure that they will tell you that no judge can get blood out of a turnip.
cardinalsfan
01-14-2012, 01:03 AM
As most everyone on this site knows, we had almost the exact same thing happen to residents of Arizona. Before ADW was outlawed, we too could not bet on instate tracks.
Within a year or two of ADW being outlawed we have lost one of our two tracks non-fair tracks. Now this was not completely due to the loss of ADW, but it was one of the contributing factors.
I just don't understand why the horse racing industry chooses to remain in the dark ages. Leads me to think it is because of everything from lack of concern, unwillingness to change, pure stubbornness, all the way up to (when what I hope is a wild imagination kicks in) the fact it is too hard to skim cash off when wagering is done online.
I have come to terms that I will not be able to pass the days when I retire betting the horses. I see no forward thinkers in this industry and don't ever see that changing.
What a shame.
SpotPlays
01-18-2012, 12:01 PM
I assume I can't wager on the Texas track with my twinspires, xpressbet or tvg accounts? Can anyone help?
Looks like a good opening day card with 6 races of 10 or more entries, plus turf stake.
thanks
raybo
01-18-2012, 03:38 PM
I assume I can't wager on the Texas track with my twinspires, xpressbet or tvg accounts? Can anyone help?
Looks like a good opening day card with 6 races of 10 or more entries, plus turf stake.
thanks
I assume you're a Texas resident? And, I also assume that you don't care that Texas wants to tell you where you can wager and where you can't?
If you keep supporting Texas tracks and, in effect Texas law, regarding where you can wager, then why not just try to wager online?
I will never wager on another Texas track until this state stops telling me where I can wager. I hope everyone else, Texas resident or not, does the same. If Texas, or any other state, wants to play "Big Brother" then let them pay the price, by losing thoroughbred racing completely.
BetPTC
01-19-2012, 11:09 AM
Sam Houston is available for wagering at Premier Turf Club, www.betptc.com, starting tomorrow night. We are offering a special promotion this weekend, running Friday through Monday, of 10% cash back on all exacta and trifecta wagers! Normally our rate back to the players is a solid 4-5%.
We do not accept wagering from residents of Texas, unfortunately, due to the state laws.
raybo
01-19-2012, 11:28 AM
Sam Houston is available for wagering at Premier Turf Club, www.betptc.com, starting tomorrow night. We are offering a special promotion this weekend, running Friday through Monday, of 10% cash back on all exacta and trifecta wagers! Normally our rate back to the players is a solid 4-5%.
We do not accept wagering from residents of Texas, unfortunately, due to the state laws.
I assume PTC has attorneys that have checked into the enforce-ability of a Texas law being enforced on a non-Texas business entity. What is the result of their research? Or, is PTC just playing it safe and avoiding possible legal problems without exploring the issue, regarding it's legality?
I can understand your wish to keep the wagering dollars from non-Texas residents coming in, for Texas tracks, and possible ramifications regarding non-Texas dollars being in jeopardy if you choose to ignore the current Texas internet wagering law, but, if Texas law applies to you, and other ADW's, then accepting any Texas resident as a member goes against Texas law, as the law in Texas, makes it illegal for any Texas resident to wager on the internet, anywhere, period.
Robert Goren
01-19-2012, 11:49 AM
I assume PTC has attorneys that have checked into the enforce-ability of a Texas law being enforced on a non-Texas business entity. What is the result of their research? Or, is PTC just playing it safe and avoiding possible legal problems without exploring the issue, regarding it's legality?
I can understand your wish to keep the wagering dollars from non-Texas residents coming in, for Texas tracks, and possible ramifications regarding non-Texas dollars being in jeopardy if you choose to ignore the current Texas internet wagering law, but, if Texas law applies to you, and other ADW's, then accepting any Texas resident as a member goes against Texas law, as the law in Texas, makes it illegal for any Texas resident to wager on the internet, anywhere, period.The one thing I have learned from attempts to get ADWs to take my bets from Nebraska is that ADWs have very little say in it. It is the Hubs who make decisions on whose bets to take and whose not to. Pleading your case to an ADW is futile. Good luck at even finding out which Hub which ADW uses, let alone convincing a Hub to change its policies regarding going against some state's laws. I have tried to fight that battle and have always lost. They will tell you to get the state to change its laws. In Texas you might have chance to do that. In Nebraska I have no chance. I have to be happy with a badly word law that one or two hubs interpret it as allowing online betting from Nebraskans, but not online betting on Nebraska tracks. There is one that reads it the other way, not that there is any great demand for wagering on Nebraska by out of staters.
Hosshead
01-20-2012, 06:54 AM
It's easier to boycott Ariz. and Tex. tracks if everyone would just stop downloading or looking at racefiles or pp's from those tracks. = No temptation.
Let those states struggle with ONLY receiving bets made onsite at their local track.
Do away with ALL online betting on those states (from anywhere), and let 'em hang themselves.
No tears from me.
In fact I'd be proud to be part of the many hands on the rope, that opens the trap door right out from under 'em.
Be a Proud Part of putting the noose around Ariz. and Tex.
-- By simply NOT BETTING THOSE TRACKS !
raybo
01-20-2012, 09:35 AM
It's easier to boycott Ariz. and Tex. tracks if everyone would just stop downloading or looking at racefiles or pp's from those tracks. = No temptation.
Let those states struggle with ONLY receiving bets made onsite at their local track.
Do away with ALL online betting on those states (from anywhere), and let 'em hang themselves.
No tears from me.
In fact I'd be proud to be part of the many hands on the rope, that opens the trap door right out from under 'em.
Be a Proud Part of putting the noose around Ariz. and Tex.
-- By simply NOT BETTING THOSE TRACKS !
There you go!! The only way you can effect change, when you're talking about governments, controlling organizations, and greed, is to take away their means to exist or control. In this case, that means revenue. If there is no revenue, its loss renders those who seek to regulate it, impotent, as they no longer have anything to regulate.
So, suck it up for once, and stop giving your money to those who wish to take more of it, and give you less individual freedom in return.
precocity
01-20-2012, 12:09 PM
click link then click small video :rolleyes:
http://winfortexas.com/
raybo
01-21-2012, 10:29 AM
Traditional gambling in the "great state of Texas" has been argued for years. Don't forget, this is in the "Bible belt". It took decades to get horse racing back in Texas, after the Bible thumpers got it outlawed many, many years ago.
Slots? Not likely in my lifetime. Just as well, I hate "games" that guarantee the player will lose, if that player plays it long enough. Unfortunately, the state did convince residents that the "lottery" and "bingo" are not gambling, sheesh!
In states that allow "gaming" in order to prop-up racing, it appears that just the opposite happens, the racing portion is in steady decline, while the "negative expectation" games grow exponentially.
No thanks!!
precocity
01-21-2012, 06:46 PM
agreed now put your self in my shoes living in texas? :mad:
RainMan
01-28-2012, 11:03 AM
Day 1 Leader at the NHC is a Texas who qualified through XpressBet. He is an Attorney who has only been a horseplayer for a short while. I wonder if he knows that on-line wagering is illegal in Texas.
raybo
01-28-2012, 01:25 PM
Day 1 Leader at the NHC is a Texas who qualified through XpressBet. He is an Attorney who has only been a horseplayer for a short while. I wonder if he knows that on-line wagering is illegal in Texas.
He probably knows that the law against online wagering is unenforceable.
garyscpa
02-24-2012, 06:39 PM
Got a letter from Xpressbet today that my account with drf.com will be closed 2/27 due to the recent Texas law. :mad:
Yep. Received the same letter today. I wonder if Twinspires is far behind?
ElKabong
02-24-2012, 11:43 PM
have an out of state relative? May want to use that address opening a new acct
not that i'd say you need to do anything illegal mind you (and don't hit a signer with a false addy)....i hear fake id's are easy to come by - not that i would know...so opening a new acct is possible in say, OK or LA
i'll say this, LS is getting pretty uppity lately. The whole attitude out there is tough to take &the smoke in the racebook is worse than ever, by far
thew92
02-24-2012, 11:54 PM
Hey guys, I got my letter from expressbet today too saying there are closing my account. I haven't been betting on horses for the last 5 months either. I was reading though the thread and wanted to add my 2 cents. After what I have seen the Federal Gov do to the poker sites out there. 1st nothing will happen to the horse player but the ADW sites do have a real worry. They shut down Poker Stars in the US using a New York law and the UIGEA. I can see the Federal government enter-veining here telling the ADW to stop accepting Texas customers and using the UIGEA and the Texas law to do it.
Disclaimer: I am not an Attorney
ElKabong
02-25-2012, 12:14 AM
Hey guys, I got my letter from expressbet today too saying there are closing my account. I haven't been betting on horses for the last 5 months either. I was reading though the thread and wanted to add my 2 cents. After what I have seen the Federal Gov do to the poker sites out there. 1st nothing will happen to the horse player but the ADW sites do have a real worry. They shut down Poker Stars in the US using a New York law and the UIGEA. I can see the Federal government enter-veining here telling the ADW to stop accepting Texas customers and using the UIGEA and the Texas law to do it.
Disclaimer: I am not an Attorney
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UIGEA
Interesting.
Looks like the final stake in the heart for TX racing. HANA is of no effect here.... it's just that the product sucks, now they're shutting out people that bet in the hinterlands (like raybo) and the more well to do retirees that can't get to LS for a multitudes of reasons (there are 3 I know of that haven't been to LS in almost a decade & aren't interested in going back).
One of those reasons is they don't wish to smell the smoke, others don't want to get out for 6 hrs a day.....Funny thing is, I doubt most TXRC or LS suits types really care.
i see TS and xpressbet getting a few hundred new accts across the great southwest that aren't in TX ;)
Robert Goren
02-25-2012, 04:37 AM
I would like to say this about the Texas situation. While it is unlikely that Johnny Law will come after individual bettors, it is not out of the realm of possibility. Remember that they did go after some individuals who illegally down loaded music from sites like Napster in addition to the sites. I am not saying they will do it, but it is not out of the realm of possibilities. One thing I am pretty sure of is that sooner or later most ADWs will stop taking Texas bettors. That's is what happened to me when Nebraska changed their law on ADWs. After awhile a few decide to start taking me again because the law was so badly written, but to this day at least half won't take Nebraska residents.
raybo
02-25-2012, 05:21 AM
Yeah, I've been trying to garner support for a complete boycott of all Texas tracks, but evidently residents of other states are only concerned about themselves.
The only way we can protect our civil rights is hit government where it hurts, right in their pocket books. Money speaks louder than anything else, if Texas and our racing commission and tracks start seeing a huge drop in out of state wagering, they will be forced to look at the situation or sit by and watch Texas racing go away. Either way, it doesn't really matter, except for those who have a devout passion for Texas racing. I don't know too many who have that. We have LS, Hou, and Ret, big deal!! Anybody making their living from these tracks? :rolleyes:
raybo
02-25-2012, 05:28 AM
Where does HANA stand on this issue? Is there a possibility of HANA supporting a Texas track boycott?
precocity
02-25-2012, 09:32 AM
Yep. Received the same letter today. I wonder if Twinspires is far behind?
dam! dam! dam! thats it for me! :mad:
ElKabong
02-25-2012, 10:01 AM
Yeah, I've been trying to garner support for a complete boycott of all Texas tracks, but evidently residents of other states are only concerned about themselves.
The only way we can protect our civil rights is hit government where it hurts, right in their pocket books. Money speaks louder than anything else, if Texas and our racing commission and tracks start seeing a huge drop in out of state wagering, they will be forced to look at the situation or sit by and watch Texas racing go away. Either way, it doesn't really matter, except for those who have a devout passion for Texas racing. I don't know too many who have that. We have LS, Hou, and Ret, big deal!! Anybody making their living from these tracks? :rolleyes:
just my $.02...
(1) horseplayers will never be united over anything. Longer discussion here, but it's true
(2) Lone Star in particular made an informal decision 10 yrs ago to focus on the simo product, not the live product. At that time LS was the highest volume simo bldg for $ bet (not sure if that is still the case). The product has gone downhill since & they really don't give a flip as long as the simo $ flow (which is imho why LS has always banged the "betting from home is illegal drum"...they just want people at the simo betting & charge the prices they do for food and drink)
ElKabong
02-25-2012, 10:04 AM
dam! dam! dam! thats it for me! :mad:
I don't doubt you for a moment.
However, the LS folk are like the bookie from Let It Ride...."He'll be back" (smile an evil smile :) )
Can't speak for HOU or Ret, but the LS brass has always had that outlook....shut down ADWs, get people in their bldg
It just seems that TX is going ass backwards with this whole situation. I have no desire to go to the racetrack to invest my money. Betting from home is much more efficient and less costly. I do hope Texas racing survives, but it would not surprise me one bit if they shut their doors. Can't wait to see the revenue numbers once all accounts are shut down.
ElKabong
02-25-2012, 10:59 AM
i don't think they'll shut their doors, too many people are in the simo betting $
very disappointing, but the TXRC has had this stance for awhile.
raybo
02-25-2012, 12:27 PM
just my $.02...
(1) horseplayers will never be united over anything. Longer discussion here, but it's true
(2) Lone Star in particular made an informal decision 10 yrs ago to focus on the simo product, not the live product. At that time LS was the highest volume simo bldg for $ bet (not sure if that is still the case). The product has gone downhill since & they really don't give a flip as long as the simo $ flow (which is imho why LS has always banged the "betting from home is illegal drum"...they just want people at the simo betting & charge the prices they do for food and drink)
I agree, back when LS opened up you could park for $1 and get inside for $1, there's no telling what they charge now. The simo building was so crowded most nights that you had to stand up, and you were real lucky if there was a place to layout your DRF or your printouts. The noise was deafening too. No way you could concentrate in that place. And the concessions' prices? Forget it. Now they tell me it's illegal to send my money to them unless it's in person. WTF!! :bang:
raybo
02-25-2012, 12:45 PM
Want to see where the emphasis at LS is, and where the declining profits are going? Check this out: http://www.texasthoroughbred.com/Default.aspx?tabid=45&DisplayHeadlineDetail=true&ModuleID=364&HeadlineID=1427
ElKabong
02-25-2012, 07:52 PM
I agree, back when LS opened up you could park for $1 and get inside for $1, there's no telling what they charge now. The simo building was so crowded most nights that you had to stand up, and you were real lucky if there was a place to layout your DRF or your printouts. The noise was deafening too. No way you could concentrate in that place. And the concessions' prices? Forget it. Now they tell me it's illegal to send my money to them unless it's in person. WTF!! :bang:
That pricing went out the door when the first live racing season arrived (months after the doors opened). $2 to park, $3 to enter the bldg, $3 to rent a carrel to lay your pp's on
and the place was packed every weekend. to get a carrel you had to arrive before 11am
Today the place was packed, as is the norm during Oaklawn's season on Saturdays....it'll be interesting to see if Sunday's attendance gets a bump tomorrow with Xpressbets closure
raybo
02-25-2012, 08:27 PM
That pricing went out the door when the first live racing season arrived (months after the doors opened). $2 to park, $3 to enter the bldg, $3 to rent a carrel to lay your pp's on
and the place was packed every weekend. to get a carrel you had to arrive before 11am
Today the place was packed, as is the norm during Oaklawn's season on Saturdays....it'll be interesting to see if Sunday's attendance gets a bump tomorrow with Xpressbets closure
I'll be interested in seeing how much more the average daily handle declines after this coming meet. It's been declining ever since they made it illegal for Texas residents to wager online, on Texas tracks. I guess they figured that since that law resulted in decreased handle here, then they would make all the rest of the tracks in the US lose money too, by making it illegal for Texas residents to wager online, on all tracks.
ElKabong
02-25-2012, 10:48 PM
I'll be interested in seeing how much more the average daily handle declines after this coming meet. It's been declining ever since they made it illegal for Texas residents to wager online, on Texas tracks. I guess they figured that since that law resulted in decreased handle here, then they would make all the rest of the tracks in the US lose money too, by making it illegal for Texas residents to wager online, on all tracks.
Again, LS doesn't care about handle for the live product. Purses are dramatically slashed for the 2012 Tbred season. That lost its priority in 2001 or 2002'ish. They've concentrated on the simulcast business on site. That's been highly successful & has them solidly in the Black.
Things have worked out to their plan, really. Sucks for you and me both, but it's the way it is I suppose....and no one is going to change it. Not HANA, it's been completely dickless for the at home player in this state. The power is with the track, horsemen, and the legislators.
ElKabong
02-25-2012, 10:59 PM
Want to see where the emphasis at LS is, and where the declining profits are going? Check this out: http://www.texasthoroughbred.com/Default.aspx?tabid=45&DisplayHeadlineDetail=true&ModuleID=364&HeadlineID=1427
driving home a thought came to me....the absolute last ditch for the at home player in TX is Twin Spires. TS has a lot of TX customers I assume, and they want to keep them (obviously).
If TX came after TS in any manner, TS could come back and say "ok, you block or ADW bizz in TX, we pull our signals from your simo outlets. Deal with your newly pissed off customers.
Then I came to my senses....The CD family of tracks make a LOT more $ from the simo outlets (tracks) in TX than they do from ADWs here. CD would be cutting their nuts off by pulling that stunt
We're screwed....TXRC, the horsemen, the tracks win. We lose. And the industry wonders why bettors are disappearing...
RainMan
02-27-2012, 09:24 AM
Stopped by Lone Star's Book & Bar yesterday just to look around. It was a decent crowd but not packed by any means for a Sunday. Even though half the building is non-smoking, there is still a fairly strong smoke smell throughout. I guess I am behind the times but it just doesn't have a horse racing feel.
Robert Goren
02-27-2012, 11:32 AM
One of the many problems that horse racing has had is that it kept killing off their customers with second hand smoke.
ElKabong
02-27-2012, 08:09 PM
Stopped by Lone Star's Book & Bar yesterday just to look around. It was a decent crowd but not packed by any means for a Sunday. Even though half the building is non-smoking, there is still a fairly strong smoke smell throughout. I guess I am behind the times but it just doesn't have a horse racing feel.
not behind the times at all, very accurate
if you go in on a Sat.nite you'll hear the UFC fight "fans" in the bar yell over the race calls....seems out of place
Bill Cullen
02-27-2012, 11:05 PM
How does this new Texas law affect contests? Many contests make no use of betting; does the bill cover non-betting contests too?
Thanks,
Bill C
RainMan
02-28-2012, 09:53 AM
The handicapping tournaments held in Texas are free - supposedly by law. Lone Star holds an annual series of 3 qualifiers that leads to a final and awards cash and entries to the NHC. Even the admission to the facility for the contest if free if you wish to be escorted in and submit your picks and then leave. These are not live money buy-ins.
Sam Houston used to have both on-track and internet contests that awarded cash but these have fallen by the wayside. Ironically, several years ago the south Texas Valley Greyhound Park held horse contests that were very popular with those chasing NHC qualifiers.
I posted a similiar question about the legallity of playing internet contests such as those of NHC Qualify, Horsetourneys.com, HorsePlayersqualify, etc. but got no response. My desire as a former TS member was to maintain my account to play in TS tournaments only but it seemed a grey area.
Personally, the biggest loss for me by eliminating ADW's is that you no longer can get a full range of free replays and lose the ability to access PP's for the cost of a $2 show bet.
garyscpa
02-28-2012, 12:16 PM
The handicapping tournaments held in Texas are free - supposedly by law. Lone Star holds an annual series of 3 qualifiers that leads to a final and awards cash and entries to the NHC. Even the admission to the facility for the contest if free if you wish to be escorted in and submit your picks and then leave. These are not live money buy-ins.
Sam Houston used to have both on-track and internet contests that awarded cash but these have fallen by the wayside. Ironically, several years ago the south Texas Valley Greyhound Park held horse contests that were very popular with those chasing NHC qualifiers.
I posted a similiar question about the legallity of playing internet contests such as those of NHC Qualify, Horsetourneys.com, HorsePlayersqualify, etc. but got no response. My desire as a former TS member was to maintain my account to play in TS tournaments only but it seemed a grey area.
Personally, the biggest loss for me by eliminating ADW's is that you no longer can get a full range of free replays and lose the ability to access PP's for the cost of a $2 show bet.
Yep, my DRF account is locked out right now.
EvenSteven
02-28-2012, 09:23 PM
Scary stuff I heard someone from NYRA talk about how if people from NY couldn’t bet outside of NY it would be good for NY racing. I just about puked. His rational was all that money going out of state. This was a year maybe a 1 ½ years ago. I believe this NYRA person was talking to some type of NY subcommittee . I live in NY after that I only bet Saratoga since I live 15 miles away. I have nothing else good to say about NYRA so I am done.
johnhannibalsmith
03-02-2012, 06:05 PM
I'd like to welcome the citizens of Texas to Arizona.
ElKabong
03-02-2012, 10:04 PM
1I'd like to welcome the citizens of Texas to Arizona.
Why? We can still bet from home in TX.
Not to mention we have no real estate bubble bursting.....
RainMan
03-16-2012, 10:07 AM
It has been 6 months since the ADW's were warned to halt accepting wagers from Texas. Just curious if anyone other than DRF/XpressBet took this seriously.
ElKabong
03-16-2012, 09:05 PM
Lot of smaller shops crawfished their way out of Texas, including Premier Turf Club. Was sad to see em go, but they didn't have the heart to fight apparently
There are still some active shops taking bets here....the ones that hung in there no doubt are raking it in pretty large. Everyone i know that bet from home 6 months ago, still do...The AG here didn't scare anyone betting from home. They just moved their tack to the ones that want to do business here bad enough
RainMan
08-02-2012, 12:56 PM
Does any one have any updates or news on the Texas situation? I was wondering if TwinSpires or any of the major ADWs are still taking bets from Texas.
raybo
08-02-2012, 09:21 PM
Does any one have any updates or news on the Texas situation? I was wondering if TwinSpires or any of the major ADWs are still taking bets from Texas.
I am still able to use TwinSpires and DarkhorseBet, but I think the latter is not accepting new Texas residents as members.
traynor
08-02-2012, 10:29 PM
I'd like to welcome the citizens of Texas to Arizona.
I don't think they got it. They probably have never even heard of Sheriff Joe. And I don't think they realize that in AZ it is not just illegal to take a bet, it is illegal to MAKE a bet online. As in, pink pajamas, zoris, and green baloney for lunch.
traynor
08-02-2012, 10:46 PM
Whenever a bet is made online--illegally--there is an electronic trail straight to the person who made the bet. Saying things like "Well, they can't arrest all of us!" is not especially useful. They don't need to arrest everyone. All they need to do is arrest the ones they consider creating a "problem" for them.
Think of it like the camera that snaps a picture of you running a red light. Just because you got through the intersection without the red lights and siren doesn't mean you got away with it.
All rah rah aside, I am a big believer in complying with the local laws and I strongly encourage others to do the same. If you disagree with the laws in Texas, move. It is that simple. I know. I used to live in Arizona. When they made online betting illegal, I left. I have not regretted that decision for a moment since then.
BillW
08-02-2012, 10:59 PM
I don't think they got it. They probably have never even heard of Sheriff Joe. And I don't think they realize that in AZ it is not just illegal to take a bet, it is illegal to MAKE a bet online. As in, pink pajamas, zoris, and green baloney for lunch.
The reason on-line betting is illegal in AZ is due to an AZ track successfully lobbying the state legislature to shut it down.
traynor
08-03-2012, 07:11 AM
The reason on-line betting is illegal in AZ is due to an AZ track successfully lobbying the state legislature to shut it down.
Not really. The basic reason was online poker. Without online poker mixed into the equation, there would have been no legislation. Consider the nearly identical legislation in the State of Washington--that exempts online wagering on horse races. Same underlying motivation, but perhaps applied a bit more intelligently.
Arizona has had a "non-compete" regulation for many years, under which tracks cannot offer competing meets (in the same county--of which there are really only two in Arizona worth noting). That is, TuP runs in the daytime, and PGP runs dog races at night. PGP can run matinees, but only on TuP dark days. It works out just fine.
If you are really interested in the underlying causes and motivations of the legislation, you might look into the premise that "gambling dollars spent there will not be spent here" when applied to Native American casinos. Rather than bashing tracks as lobbying for the legislation, it might be more useful to consider the decline in horse racing with an associated increase in other types of gambling activity availability--most notably Native American casinos. Among other things, those casinos usually have a lot better food, a lot more amiable personnel, and much less disdain for the paying customers than racetracks.
Charli125
08-03-2012, 05:26 PM
Not really. The basic reason was online poker. Without online poker mixed into the equation, there would have been no legislation. Consider the nearly identical legislation in the State of Washington--that exempts online wagering on horse races. Same underlying motivation, but perhaps applied a bit more intelligently.
Arizona has had a "non-compete" regulation for many years, under which tracks cannot offer competing meets (in the same county--of which there are really only two in Arizona worth noting). That is, TuP runs in the daytime, and PGP runs dog races at night. PGP can run matinees, but only on TuP dark days. It works out just fine.
If you are really interested in the underlying causes and motivations of the legislation, you might look into the premise that "gambling dollars spent there will not be spent here" when applied to Native American casinos. Rather than bashing tracks as lobbying for the legislation, it might be more useful to consider the decline in horse racing with an associated increase in other types of gambling activity availability--most notably Native American casinos. Among other things, those casinos usually have a lot better food, a lot more amiable personnel, and much less disdain for the paying customers than racetracks.
Actually, the track in question thought that by outlawing online wagering, everyone would come to the track.
In this case, online poker had nothing to do with it. People just ignored all past history and tried something that has never worked...ever.
traynor
08-03-2012, 10:11 PM
Actually, the track in question thought that by outlawing online wagering, everyone would come to the track.
In this case, online poker had nothing to do with it. People just ignored all past history and tried something that has never worked...ever.
No creo que si. The argument was based on the assumption of a finite amount of "gambling dollars" that would be spent during any given time frame. Online poker was identified as a major "siphon" of those funds away from "the track in question" (otherwise known as Turf Paradise), possibly because it was the more politically correct move to identify the problem as an out-of-state entity, rather than the local casinos. A major part of the flap was that "poor hapless citizens" were (according to "experts") engaging in a no-win situation with online casinos that used adaptive algorithms to virtually guarantee losses. If the online casinos--poker or otherwise--had been a bit less greedy, perhaps none of the flap would have ever developed.
I agree that TuP wanted (and wants) to be the only game in town. I do not agree that online poker had nothing to do with it. The original draft was focused specifically on online casinos, and I think everyone would have been happier if it had been left at that, rather than tossing in online wagering on horse races.
Similar scenarios involving the (apparent) inability of horse race tracks to compete on equal footing with other sources of gambling developed at both Birmingham and Canterbury Park--horse racing has difficulty competing with other forms of wagering if those forms are readily available.
raybo
08-03-2012, 11:12 PM
My take on the thing, and it was confirmed in the response from the email I sent to the chairman of the Texas Racing Commission, was that the reason for the law was, supposedly, because Texas wasn't getting any of the revenue from the online betting. Well, if the online betting is co-mingled with the track pools, then how could they say the state didn't get any of that revenue, when track takeout was a minimum of 18% of every wagered dollar in the pools?
None of it makes any sense to me, except it's all about greed in racing and any other form of gambling.
startngate
08-04-2012, 02:25 PM
The State where the host track is located normally doesn't get any revenue when guest sites outside the State are wagering on the host track. There is no pari-mutuel tax paid on exporting of races, so at most, they might be collecting a small amount of income tax if the host track was actually profitable.
The only exceptions that I know of currently are CA and AZ. Both of those States by virtue of collecting a tax on some (or all) of the export handle have directly caused the takeout to go up at all tracks in both States.
Texas could certainly do the same if revenue really was the only reason. They could have also passed a law like IL, VA, WA, OR, and CA all did to regulate and tax it. If the TX Racing Commission really believes it was a revenue issue, then I have a nice bridge to sell you.
Charli125 thoughts are probably closer to the real reason.
raybo
08-04-2012, 06:03 PM
The State where the host track is located normally doesn't get any revenue when guest sites outside the State are wagering on the host track. There is no pari-mutuel tax paid on exporting of races, so at most, they might be collecting a small amount of income tax if the host track was actually profitable.
The only exceptions that I know of currently are CA and AZ. Both of those States by virtue of collecting a tax on some (or all) of the export handle have directly caused the takeout to go up at all tracks in both States.
Texas could certainly do the same if revenue really was the only reason. They could have also passed a law like IL, VA, WA, OR, and CA all did to regulate and tax it. If the TX Racing Commission really believes it was a revenue issue, then I have a nice bridge to sell you.
Charli125 thoughts are probably closer to the real reason.
Yeah, I believe it's really a combination of the state thinking they're not getting their fair share, and the track owners wanting Texas residents to wager at their track, buying all the crap from them that goes with it, food, beer, parking, entrance fee, TV seats, all that stuff that we online wagerers don't have to deal with.
The fact is, what they did was drive Texas residents away from wagering on Texas tracks at all, because when you live 100+ miles from the closest track, going to the track is not economically feasible, except maybe a couple times per meet, for many players. By outlawing internet wagering the tracks are missing out on all the extra pool money that they would have gotten had they not passed the law. :bang:
I've been thinking of moving out of this state anyway, so if all the ADWs stop letting me wager, that will be the final straw, but you can bet I will never bet on a Texas track again, period.
johnhannibalsmith
08-04-2012, 06:56 PM
Charli is probably closest to reality in the case of what pushed the AZ legislation to fruition. It was never the case that "account wagering" was considered legal by AZ regulators/legislators, but the law pressed through in September of 2007 that made it felonious was designed to, in the words of the beloved (Turf Paradise kingpin) Jerry Simms, "...put teeth into it."
The bill was sold to AZ horsemen by management of both TuP and YAV (which for all intents and purposes in this case were somewhat comingled) under the pretense that the horsemen were essentially getting nothing from wager made through ADW platforms. The percentage disparities between in-state on-track and in-state on-line were widely circulated. The volumes of actual wagering dollars and trajectory of those volumes weren't quite as prominently featured in the pleas for support.
The underlying reality is that Mr. Simms controls the OTB network in the state and had invested (along with the horsemen by virtue of a non-statuatory split of handle in his favor for years) in that network. He had a fairly heavy influence at the other commercial track that ran at that time, Yavapai Downs by virtue of several entities that track depended upon, the most crucial of which being the OTB network. Mr. Simms like to be in control, in my opinion, of course. He peddles influence (or leverage) as a primary business protocol, in my opinion, of course.
So, when Charli states that the law was implemented in an effort to commandeer the will and actions of the customer, I believe that to be the most succinct explanation. When he (and Bill) stipulates that it was promoted largely by the tracks and most unfortunately, by the naive horsemen as well, he's pretty much right on the mark.
Amazingly, handle is down again, purses paid is down again, and the simplest correction to flawed policy is still never addressed.
raybo
08-04-2012, 07:01 PM
Yeah, revenues at Texas tracks have been in steady decline since the then Governor GW Bush's law, no online wagering by Texas residents on Texas tracks. Now we have the new law, no online wagering by Texas residents, at all, anywhere in the world. I haven't seen this year's revenues yet but I expect them to be lower than last year, again.
As far as I'm concerned, it serves them right!
johnhannibalsmith
08-04-2012, 07:13 PM
I should mention that I don't disagree with a lot of Traynor's perspective here. In fact, I agree with quite a bit of it considering we have legislators in AZ infamous for the attitude and policy platforms that Traynor alludes to. I merely think that it was with not only the blessing of a heavy contributor, but an all out press by him to get the job done, that the legislation plowed its way through without any real consideration to the impact to the industry beyond the puppeteers.
traynor
08-05-2012, 01:13 AM
This is really an amazing discussion. It must seem really wierd to people who don't live in (or who are not familiar with) Arizona. I agree that a handful of people were probably responsible for the legislation, because I think the average 'zonie cares little or nothing for horse races, or what does or does not happen to them.
What is really surprising to me is the perspective. I lived in Phoenix when the prohibition went into effect, and I had obviously been following it with interest. However, all the flap (publicly) was related primarily to online casinos. If it had been restricted to horse racing, few would have cared one way or the other. Horse racing was included, but almost as a secondary issue to the "real" issue of preventing losses by the good citizens of Arizona to the evil offshore online casinos.
What happened was a huge shot in the arm to the local Native American casinos, because of the people who no longer bet with online casinos. The casinos had always been popular, but that legislation dramatically increased their business. The argument was the same--the gambling dollars would stay mostly in-state, rather than going elsewhere. More jobs, more money, prosperity for everyone--a great pitch in a primarily conservative Republican state.
vBulletin® v3.8.9, Copyright ©2000-2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.