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View Full Version : Keeneland screws up payout


cj
10-27-2011, 09:16 AM
http://www.drf.com/news/keeneland-pays-out-wrong-pick-three-amount

andymays
10-27-2011, 10:00 AM
For whatever reason this stuff happens all the time now.

cj
10-27-2011, 10:04 AM
For whatever reason this stuff happens all the time now.

To be fair, there are many different types of bets and many different rules. This stuff wasn't around 20 years ago.

BillW
10-27-2011, 10:09 AM
To be fair, there are many different types of bets and many different rules. This stuff wasn't around 20 years ago.

I guess the "off turf" rule has to be manually entered into the tote system (i.e. a supervisor overide to pay "all" in the last leg). I'll check with the commission to see if there was anything more complicated than that.

I knew there was a reason why I held on to all my tickets :)

cj
10-27-2011, 10:12 AM
It's nice for once to see an error turn out in the customer's favor :) I guess the "off turf" rule has to be manually entered into the tote system (i.e. a supervisor overide to pay "all" in the last leg). I'll check with the commission to see if there was anything more complicated than that.

It only turned out in favor of some, others not so much if they didn't hold onto "losing" tickets. I guess those that bet electronically will get paid.

As a sidenote, this is just another reason to hate polytrack. Races NEVER came off the turf at Keeneland in the dirt era.

BillW
10-27-2011, 10:16 AM
It only turned out in favor of some, others not so much if they didn't hold onto "losing" tickets. I guess those that bet electronically will get paid.

As a sidenote, this is just another reason to hate polytrack. Races NEVER came off the turf at Keeneland in the dirt era.


Yea, the ones who threw away their tickets and couldn't remember their structure were screwed (I edited my original post). Those who remember where they got their tickets and what the structure was may be able to recoup via examination of the tote audit records.

OTM Al
10-27-2011, 01:01 PM
The lack of moral outrage speaks volumes. The reader can spin that one any way he or she likes...

But seriously, yesterday someone is calling for mass firings because a starter made a mistake and left one horse behind the gate. Today, it's oh well, accidents happen.

Personally I know everyone screws up from time to time, myself included, and can't hold it against them as long as it's clear no negligence or malice was intended, as both cases seem to be as far as we know. Stuff happens to put it lightly. I just find differences in responses quite interesting. When the placing judges at NYRA blew it a couple years ago and they tried to make right by the players, the cry was "what about the poor players that threw away their tickets". Keeneland mutual department blows it yesterday and they try to make right, to quote Steve Byk, "crickets".

aaron
10-27-2011, 01:17 PM
The lack of moral outrage speaks volumes. The reader can spin that one any way he or she likes...

But seriously, yesterday someone is calling for mass firings because a starter made a mistake and left one horse behind the gate. Today, it's oh well, accidents happen.

Personally I know everyone screws up from time to time, myself included, and can't hold it against them as long as it's clear no negligence or malice was intended, as both cases seem to be as far as we know. Stuff happens to put it lightly. I just find differences in responses quite interesting. When the placing judges at NYRA blew it a couple years ago and they tried to make right by the players, the cry was "what about the poor players that threw away their tickets". Keeneland mutual department blows it yesterday and they try to make right, to quote Steve Byk, "crickets".
As long as the track acknowledges the mistake and attempts to do the right thing,there is not much you can do. Players throw away tickets,it happens. When NYRA tried to make right by the players,it was the correct thing to do. On the triple that wasn't paid out because of a communication break down and no one tried to do the right thing,people have the right to complain.
In this case Keenland seems to be willing to take some sort of loss by doing the right thing.

OTM Al
10-27-2011, 01:30 PM
As long as the track acknowledges the mistake and attempts to do the right thing,there is not much you can do. Players throw away tickets,it happens. When NYRA tried to make right by the players,it was the correct thing to do. On the triple that wasn't paid out because of a communication break down and no one tried to do the right thing,people have the right to complain.
In this case Keenland seems to be willing to take some sort of loss by doing the right thing.

I totally agree with you. I am simply making an observation, and am not original in that respect, about how different the response has been.

FenceBored
10-27-2011, 01:51 PM
The lack of moral outrage speaks volumes. The reader can spin that one any way he or she likes...

But seriously, yesterday someone is calling for mass firings because a starter made a mistake and left one horse behind the gate. Today, it's oh well, accidents happen.

Personally I know everyone screws up from time to time, myself included, and can't hold it against them as long as it's clear no negligence or malice was intended, as both cases seem to be as far as we know. Stuff happens to put it lightly. I just find differences in responses quite interesting. When the placing judges at NYRA blew it a couple years ago and they tried to make right by the players, the cry was "what about the poor players that threw away their tickets". Keeneland mutual department blows it yesterday and they try to make right, to quote Steve Byk, "crickets".

It's that Southern gentility that makes the difference.

Cardus
10-27-2011, 03:11 PM
It only turned out in favor of some, others not so much if they didn't hold onto "losing" tickets. I guess those that bet electronically will get paid.

As a sidenote, this is just another reason to hate polytrack. Races NEVER came off the turf at Keeneland in the dirt era.

This is an interesting sidebar to this incident.

Cardus
10-27-2011, 03:12 PM
The lack of moral outrage speaks volumes. The reader can spin that one any way he or she likes...

But seriously, yesterday someone is calling for mass firings because a starter made a mistake and left one horse behind the gate. Today, it's oh well, accidents happen.

Personally I know everyone screws up from time to time, myself included, and can't hold it against them as long as it's clear no negligence or malice was intended, as both cases seem to be as far as we know. Stuff happens to put it lightly. I just find differences in responses quite interesting. When the placing judges at NYRA blew it a couple years ago and they tried to make right by the players, the cry was "what about the poor players that threw away their tickets". Keeneland mutual department blows it yesterday and they try to make right, to quote Steve Byk, "crickets".

Bravo.

FenceBored
10-27-2011, 04:59 PM
Bravo.

Seriously, you don't think the majority of the difference* is that the first time most people heard of the problem was when they saw the announcement that Keeneland was trying to make good? Indignation about a mistake is hard to generate when it's fixed before the first complaint is made public.


*Yes, clearly Keeneland does get more slack that most other major tracks. They can do things that would have people howling if CDI, NYRA, Gulfstream, or the So Cal circuit did them. Witness the flap about withholding purse monies (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/65761/kentucky-purse-regulation-will-be-reviewed) for all races if one sample from that day's batch tests suspiciously. What do you mean "what flap?" Oh, you hadn't heard about that. Well, you would have if CD was the lone track in Kentucky to do it that way.

Note 2: Notice that the KHRC is looking at changing a rule that doesn't deprive horsemen of their money, just lengthens the time to payment. But they're not looking into changing the rule that let Ky Downs stiff holders of tickets with the correct superfecta when they made a placing mistake a couple of months ago.

Cardus
10-27-2011, 05:04 PM
OTM Al's post was fair comment, and my reaction to it was reasonable*.


(*And brief, by the way.)

FenceBored
10-27-2011, 05:12 PM
OTM Al's post was fair comment, and my reaction to it was reasonable*.


(*And brief, by the way.)

Non-responsive.

Cardus
10-27-2011, 05:14 PM
Are we in court?

PaceAdvantage
10-27-2011, 06:53 PM
Are we in court?This is awesome...I can't wait for more...

FenceBored
10-29-2011, 11:25 AM
Are we in court?

One can't be non-responsive outside a courtroom?

Look at what Steve Byk said, which OTM Al references approvingly (and you by extension 'bravoed'):

And this happens. And there's mistakes like this that happen a lot of times for different kinds of reasons. There's been the placing judge here and there that get publicized. What is funny about what happened at Keeneland yesterday, which can happen anywhere, a noticible absence of criticism around the internet. I was certainly amused by that. If this happens in New York they come out of the woodwork criticizing. And when Gulfstream has a mistake and takes races off after, uh, you recall that's happened a number of times and the criticism comes heaping down, but it's interesting that the horseplayer advocates who have made Keeneland their darling, this happens at Keeneland, not a peep. So, be consistent and be fair and criticize the places and the situations that need to be criticized in an even handed method, uh uh manner. Don't be selective in the criticisms. That's the lesson from yesterday.
-- http://www.thoroughbredracingradionetwork.com/images/stories/audio/102711a.mp3 starting at 4:36.
That's pretty broad hinting at a well organized effort to cover for Keeneland and malign NYRA and Gulfstream. There's a word for that kind of thinking: Paranoid.

Does it really make sense to believe that every single one of the people who are quick to start threads berating track managements for mistakes like this is onboard with an anti-NYRA plan and spent Wednesday afternoon washing down a cup of burgoo with Keeneland kool-aid (spiked with Makers Mark)?

Isn't it more sensible to assume that the people who'd start a thread like that either just weren't playing Keeneland Wednesday, or didn't notice what had happened until Keeneland announced they'd screwed up and were going to make good?

therussmeister
10-29-2011, 12:05 PM
It only turned out in favor of some, others not so much if they didn't hold onto "losing" tickets. I guess those that bet electronically will get paid.

As a sidenote, this is just another reason to hate polytrack. Races NEVER came off the turf at Keeneland in the dirt era.
Actually the real side note is this is just another reason to not throw your tickets away.

OTM Al
10-29-2011, 12:10 PM
Does it really make sense to believe that every single one of the people who are quick to start threads berating track managements for mistakes like this is onboard with an anti-NYRA plan and spent Wednesday afternoon washing down a cup of burgoo with Keeneland kool-aid (spiked with Makers Mark)?

Isn't it more sensible to assume that the people who'd start a thread like that either just weren't playing Keeneland Wednesday, or didn't notice what had happened until Keeneland announced they'd screwed up and were going to make good?

It says one thing to me. Despite all the praise and love for Keeneland with it's takeout, full fields, etc, people don't put their money where their mouth is. That it clearly isn't just takeout and field size that people care about.

It says NY tracks are still the most popular and most played in the country and the differences aren't even close. Had the same thing happened in NY on Wednesday there is no doubt that someone would have posted a thread within minutes of the event, both because someone was actually watching AND because of the continued outward perception that NYRA tracks do no right.

At least half of the whining about tracks and track management on this board is about 3 tracks in New York and the fact that no one said a thing about this incident for some time shows clearly the bias is real. I credit most of this bias to the internet as people continue to rehash and spread the same either misinformed or out right wrong beliefs that are perpetuated in forums and blogs despite frequent attempts to supply the correct info. But those of us who try to give you the facts are called biased.

Am I biased? Sure. I know and respect many people who work in the racing business at NYRA as well as at Pimlico and Charlestown. I know what they try to do for the player and I do get mad when people call them names and make blanket statements. I admit I'm biased against Keeneland. My ex-wife used to live about a mile from the track.

However, I know NYRA doesn't do everything "right". Not everyone can be Keeneland....

FenceBored
10-30-2011, 10:59 AM
It says one thing to me. Despite all the praise and love for Keeneland with it's takeout, full fields, etc, people don't put their money where their mouth is. That it clearly isn't just takeout and field size that people care about.

It says NY tracks are still the most popular and most played in the country and the differences aren't even close. Had the same thing happened in NY on Wednesday there is no doubt that someone would have posted a thread within minutes of the event, both because someone was actually watching AND because of the continued outward perception that NYRA tracks do no right.

At least half of the whining about tracks and track management on this board is about 3 tracks in New York and the fact that no one said a thing about this incident for some time shows clearly the bias is real. I credit most of this bias to the internet as people continue to rehash and spread the same either misinformed or out right wrong beliefs that are perpetuated in forums and blogs despite frequent attempts to supply the correct info. But those of us who try to give you the facts are called biased.

Am I biased? Sure. I know and respect many people who work in the racing business at NYRA as well as at Pimlico and Charlestown. I know what they try to do for the player and I do get mad when people call them names and make blanket statements. I admit I'm biased against Keeneland. My ex-wife used to live about a mile from the track.

However, I know NYRA doesn't do everything "right". Not everyone can be Keeneland....

Oh my! Now we're going from this incident proving a conspiracy favoring Keeneland against NYRA to it proving the vast superiority of NYRA. :eek:

OTM Al
10-30-2011, 11:30 AM
Oh my! Now we're going from this incident proving a conspiracy favoring Keeneland against NYRA to it proving the vast superiority of NYRA. :eek:

If that is what you got out of my post, you are quite clueless. I'm talking about perception. Perhaps this is too subtle for you to understand.

aaron
10-30-2011, 12:01 PM
NYRA gets the most criticism because they are the most played circuit and also the most scrutinized. Do they do the best they can for their customers ? A hard question to answer. It seems to me they try, but because of politics and other problems they have limited power in doing anything. I don't know how you change this. There are many examples. One that comes to mind is NYRA used to give free admission to NYRA account holders who had a $1000.00 balance,then the state tells them this is not legal. Who to blame ? NYRA, a few years ago they changed tote companies and betting machines. In my opinion the old machines were far superior. This decision was probably made because the new company charged less. Who knows.Another decision was for NYRA to charge $2.50 for their "Pocket Program." Owners,trainers,horseman,employees,all get this program for free,but bettors and account holders don't. This program was raised in price from $1.25 to $2.50 a few years ago.It only gives standard information,no past performances. NYRA destroys many of these programs at days end.
Maybe,with a better cash flow,we will see some improvement for the player.

OTM Al
10-30-2011, 12:11 PM
NYRA gets the most criticism because they are the most played circuit and also the most scrutinized. Do they do the best they can for their customers ? A hard question to answer. It seems to me they try, but because of politics and other problems they have limited power in doing anything. I don't know how you change this. There are many examples. One that comes to mind is NYRA used to give free admission to NYRA account holders who had a $1000.00 balance,then the state tells them this is not legal. Who to blame ? NYRA, a few years ago they changed tote companies and betting machines. In my opinion the old machines were far superior. This decision was probably made because the new company charged less. Who knows.Another decision was for NYRA to charge $2.50 for their "Pocket Program." Owners,trainers,horseman,employees,all get this program for free,but bettors and account holders don't. This program was raised in price from $1.25 to $2.50 a few years ago.It only gives standard information,no past performances. NYRA destroys many of these programs at days end.
Maybe,with a better cash flow,we will see some improvement for the player.

They got rid of the pocket program because it cost too much to make and had too little demand. Players went nuts, so they brought it back becuase that's what was wanted. Print costs are what they are.

aaron
10-30-2011, 12:30 PM
They got rid of the pocket program because it cost too much to make and had too little demand. Players went nuts, so they brought it back becuase that's what was wanted. Print costs are what they are.
I understand that they got rid of the program because of print costs,but they continue to give it away for free to a certain segment,but not to the customers.
I'm sure they do not sell enough of the pocket programs at $2.50 to offset their cost.
I be willing to bet that they throw out more pocket programs than they sell.They certainly give out more free pocket programs than they sell.
If you decided to print them,then why raise double the price. They are probably selling half as many because of this.
I just don't see how this benefits their bottom line.

FenceBored
10-30-2011, 12:52 PM
If that is what you got out of my post, you are quite clueless. I'm talking about perception. Perhaps this is too subtle for you to understand.

Oh, I'm perceiving you quite well, thank you very much. The question is, are you?

Was there any reason, shy of extending an invitation to a pity party, for anyone to start floating anti-NYRA-conspiracy theories in this thread? Nope.

You're doing yeoman's work in that other thread taking people to task for expecting Aqueduct to have been rebuilt in marble, with gold fittings and leather seats for every horseplayer in preparation for the first day of slots' operation. Go for it, dude. :ThmbUp:

But, here? Sorry, it just reads as: "Enough about NYRA, let's talk about Keeneland. Why isn't Keeneland a target of abuse like NYRA is?"

And that last post? Well, once one gets past the 'NYRA is the highest profile circuit with the largest handle (thus the focus of intense ill-informed jealousies and criticisms I combat tirelessly) and I've got important contacts there, while Keeneland is shown by this incident not to be even a pimple on NYRA's ass,' core what is there? Not much. So, again, I think I'm perceiving fine.

thaskalos
10-30-2011, 01:01 PM
It says one thing to me. Despite all the praise and love for Keeneland with it's takeout, full fields, etc, people don't put their money where their mouth is. That it clearly isn't just takeout and field size that people care about.

It says NY tracks are still the most popular and most played in the country and the differences aren't even close. Had the same thing happened in NY on Wednesday there is no doubt that someone would have posted a thread within minutes of the event, both because someone was actually watching AND because of the continued outward perception that NYRA tracks do no right.

At least half of the whining about tracks and track management on this board is about 3 tracks in New York and the fact that no one said a thing about this incident for some time shows clearly the bias is real. I credit most of this bias to the internet as people continue to rehash and spread the same either misinformed or out right wrong beliefs that are perpetuated in forums and blogs despite frequent attempts to supply the correct info. But those of us who try to give you the facts are called biased.

Am I biased? Sure. I know and respect many people who work in the racing business at NYRA as well as at Pimlico and Charlestown. I know what they try to do for the player and I do get mad when people call them names and make blanket statements. I admit I'm biased against Keeneland. My ex-wife used to live about a mile from the track.

However, I know NYRA doesn't do everything "right". Not everyone can be Keeneland....
I don't understand...

You openly admit to having a bias for NYRA and against Keeneland...and yet you criticize others for having biases of their own. Perhaps you think that your biases are justified...

In my opinion, NYRA has some "hardcore" fans here, who quickly detect biases and then get angry and lash out at whatever criticism gets hurled NYRA's way...even if it's justified.

As proof of an existing bias here, these NYRA "fans" spread misinformation, like..."Andy Serling gets severely criticized and disrespected on this board" (eventhough Serling's handicapping expertise is hailed by over 90% of the members here)....or that "NYRA can't do anything right"...(eventhough ALL of us readily acknowledge that they are the premiere racing jurisdiction in the country.)

IMO, there is no bias against NYRA here; it's just that their "fans" are a little thin-skinned.

ArlJim78
10-30-2011, 01:12 PM
odd how this Keeneland thread turned out to be really about NYRA.
the NYRA fans are wondering where the outrage is over this event at Keeneland, what I'm noticing that is missing in this thread is that you don't have several people frantically defending Keeneland at all costs and belittling the people who reported the problem.
I have no dog in this hunt, I love Keeneland and the NY circuit.
The reason that more negative comments are made about NYRA are twofold;
First it's because it's the most popular, most followed circuit, second is because people are looking to get a reaction from and to give a tweak to the loyal NYRA defenders.

chickenhead
10-30-2011, 01:59 PM
Google has a neat feature where you can search within a site for a term -- here are the first 10 results for NYRA on the HANA blog, their official uh, mouthpiece of record.

I count 6 generally positive or extremely positive. I count 2 critical out of 10, those being generic criticisms about the slots/takeout issue -- platform issues. I am certain doing an analysis on every single time the term shows up will show other negative criticisms, and other positive praise as well.

Hopefully anyone feeling that NYRA can do no right begins to read the HANA blog more regularly, at least some of the things they are doing right are being covered regularly.

Eng: "NYRA is Poised to Crush" & More
Highlighting an article about how CA is in the weeds, and NYRA is poised to crush them further.
http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2010/09/eng-nyra-is-poised-to-crush-more.html

NYRA and Keeneland Tweak Post Times
Thanking the two for coordinating post times
http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2009/10/nyra-and-keeneland-tweak-post-times.html

Saratoga Round Table - Takeout is too High
Highlighting promising, sensible words by NYRA chairman around lowering takeout
http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2010/08/saratoga-round-table-takeout-is-too.html

Better Information and Better Transparency
Highlighting and thanking NYRA for leading the way in having judges explain decisions on camera
http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2010/07/better-information-and-better.html

What's Up With This?
General excitement over NYRA Pres Hayward making same takeout critical statements as NYRA chairman
http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2010/08/whats-up-with-this.html

East Coast Versus West Coast
Highlighting the marked difference between the pro-horseplayer noises coming out of NYRA, and the anti horseplayer noises coming out of CA
http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2010/08/east-coast-versus-west-coast.html

One Step Backwards, Two Steps Back
Criticism of NY OTB
http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2009/12/one-step-backwards-two-steps-back.html

Thursday Items
Lead item - praise for NYRA for their anti slaughter policy
http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2009/12/thursday-items.html

Will Slots Continue to Hurt Handles?
Op Ed critical of the idea that slots handle should be used solely for purses and marketing, that instead lowering takeout would drive handle growth
http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2008/12/will-slots-continue-to-hurt-handles.html

Oh, oh
Critical words over slot revenue distribution -- that none is earmarked for lowering takeout.
http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2008/12/oh-oh.html

OTM Al
10-30-2011, 02:43 PM
First it's because it's the most popular, most followed circuit, second is because people are looking to get a reaction from and to give a tweak to the loyal NYRA defenders.

Thank you. Glad to see someone gets the point.

classhandicapper
10-30-2011, 03:12 PM
I think NYRA getting more scrutiny is more or less the same phenomenon as athletes in NY getting greater scrutiny.

The next time Carmello Anthony takes a dumb shot and misses a game winner in a key game it's going to be on sports TV all night, the headline in the tabloids the next day, and discussed all day the next day on sports talk radio. In Denver, they probably vented for about an hour.

If you are going to play in NY, you need thick skin because you are going to take a lot more heat for your mistakes and get a lot more glory for your successes.

FenceBored
10-31-2011, 10:51 AM
Thank you. Glad to see someone gets the point.

:lol: Now that's funny.