Are Political Appointees the best people to regulate the sport?

[andymays]

http://espn.go.com/horse-racing/story/_/id/7131109/steer-clear-iceberg

Excerpt:

Even more alarming is the possibility that the Dutrow ruling is just the beginning and that regulators everywhere, as some have suggested, will begin to crack down on the sport. It's not the idea of a crackdown that alarms, but the further intrusion of regulators.

Generally, they're political appointees, these regulators. And when they assume their seat on the board of a state's regulatory agency, they often possess enough understanding and knowledge of horse racing to fill, perhaps, half a thimble. Some, it's true, educate themselves admirably, and most have lofty intentions. But many thimbles remain unfilled. Regulators cracking down -- it's a chilling thought,

[classhandicapper]

I guess if the perception is that the industry is unwilling or lacks the resources to regulate itself satisfactorily, it is inviting someone else to do the job.

[andymays]

One good example of the problem is:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/jul/21/chrb-changes-claiming-rule-regarding-fatalities/

Excerpt:

Earlier, the CHRB changed a rule on claiming horses that could discourage horsemen from placing an injured horse in a claiming race.

A claim by a new owner will be voided if the claimed horse suffers a fatality during the running of the race or before it is returned to be unsaddled. Previously the person making the claim would have owned the horse if it broke down and had to be euthanized.

The CHRB voted 5-2 to change the rule.

Commissioners Richard Rosenberg and Jerry Moss voted against the change, but Commissioners Keith Brackpool, David Israel, Jesse Choper, Derek and John Harris voted for the change.

[andymays]

Here's a funny clip starring the CHRB Chairman. A perfect example of a political appointee gone wrong. The Governator appointed him.

Heath Darkpool on California Racing. | Xtranormal

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/12513912/heath-darkpool-on-california-racing?page=1

[FenceBored]

Here's a funny clip starring the CHRB Chairman. A perfect example of a political appointee gone wrong. The Governator appointed him.

Heath Darkpool on California Racing. | Xtranormal

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/12513912/heath-darkpool-on-california-racing?page=1

You want knowledgable industry veterans to run California racing like they do the TOC?

[andymays]

You want knowledgable industry veterans to run California racing like they do the TOC?

They aren't knowledgable about anything except taking care of themeselves while screwing the tracks and the customers. Hopefully they won't be there much longer. Change is coming one way or the other.

http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/sports/ci_19161504

[Robert Goren]

As bettor I will take my chances with the political hacks. I know am going to screwed royally everytime if the horsemen are left to regulate themselves. At least with the political hack I might get a favorable ruling once in a while.

For the record I like the new rule regarding claimed horses. Maybe it will stop some of the three legged horses now being entered just to pass them off to some sucker. I think the bettors will be better off with few of them running. I don't know if the rule change will work, but it is worth a try since the track vets are now allowing way too many of them to run.

[Robert Goren]

They aren't knowledgable about anything except taking care of themeselves while screwing the tracks and the customers. Hopefully they won't be there much longer. Change is coming one way or the other.

http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/sports/ci_19161504I see absolutely no reason to believe the new bunch of horsemen will be any better than the old bunch of horsemen from a bettor's stand point. I have yet to hear a horseman who didn't have a very low opinion of the bettors. There may be one or two someplace, but they are extremely rare and they certainly are not going to be put into a position of power by their fellow horsemen.

[andymays]

As bettor I will take my chances with the political hacks. I know am going to screwed royally everytime if the horsemen are left to regulate themselves. At least with the political hack I might get a favorable ruling once in a while.

For the record I like the new rule regarding claimed horses. Maybe it will stop some of the three legged horses now being entered just to pass them off to some sucker. I think the bettors will be better off with few of them running. I don't know if the rule change will work, but it is worth a try since the track vets are now allowing way too many of them to run.

It might sound good but think of all the unintended consequences.

If they are thinking about changing something of this magnitude then they should let the Owners and Trainers vote on it. I listened to the meeting and it was a farce.

[andymays]

I see absolutely no reason to believe the new bunch of horsemen will be any better than the old bunch of horsemen from a bettor's stand point. I have yet to hear a horseman who didn't have a very low opinion of the bettors. There may be one or two someplace, but they are extremely rare and they certainly are not going to be put into a position of power by their fellow horsemen.

First of all they can't be any worse.

Secondly this was put in their stated goals when they started the organization.

http://calhorsemen.org/immediate_goals.htm

• Support, respect and listen to our customers, the horseplayers.

• Increase purses through informed decisions, such as optimizing takeout and allowing wagering flexibility.

They asked for and received input from Horseplayers. There is nothing to indicate that they will go back on their word.

[Hanover1]

I see absolutely no reason to believe the new bunch of horsemen will be any better than the old bunch of horsemen from a bettor's stand point. I have yet to hear a horseman who didn't have a very low opinion of the bettors. There may be one or two someplace, but they are extremely rare and they certainly are not going to be put into a position of power by their fellow horsemen.


How did we get from political hacks to the horsemen? The thread is about political appointees? As for hearing how many horsemen have a low opinion of bettors, you have not met very many horsemen personally, or this opinion changes.
On that note, we want changes changes, so let there be changes......

[5k-claim]

I see absolutely no reason to believe the new bunch of horsemen will be any better than the old bunch of horsemen from a bettor's stand point. I have yet to hear a horseman who didn't have a very low opinion of the bettors. There may be one or two someplace, but they are extremely rare and they certainly are not going to be put into a position of power by their fellow horsemen. More horsemen should find this message board and read your posts. That would change things.

.

[Hanover1]

More horsemen should find this message board and read your posts. That would change things.

.

Would certainly help things along, wouldn't it :rolleyes:

[thaskalos]

http://espn.go.com/horse-racing/story/_/id/7131109/steer-clear-iceberg

Excerpt:

Even more alarming is the possibility that the Dutrow ruling is just the beginning and that regulators everywhere, as some have suggested, will begin to crack down on the sport. It's not the idea of a crackdown that alarms, but the further intrusion of regulators.

Generally, they're political appointees, these regulators. And when they assume their seat on the board of a state's regulatory agency, they often possess enough understanding and knowledge of horse racing to fill, perhaps, half a thimble. Some, it's true, educate themselves admirably, and most have lofty intentions. But many thimbles remain unfilled. Regulators cracking down -- it's a chilling thought,
The horse racing industry lost all credibility, as far as policing this sport is concerned, when they failed to dispose of Richard Dutrow long ago. It should never have taken this long to finally get rid of him.

And Gary West, the author of this article, should be ashamed of himself for twisting the facts just to strengthen his argument.

It isn't the 18% winning trainers who have us questioning their integrity and begging for more scrutiny into their operating methods; it's those obscure trainers, who have suddenly proclaimed their genius by winning upwards of 30% of their starts...and they can be found in practically every racing circuit out there.

Also, Mr. West's statement that "these suspicions are encouraged by envy", is a slap in the face of every honest trainer in the game.

And please spare us the argument that some of these "supertrainers" have never been caught using illegal drugs...

The sport's laboratories are so underequipped, it has been widely reported that the cheaters are always a step or two ahead of detection.

[andymays]

The horse racing industry lost all credibility, as far as policing this sport is concerned, when they failed to dispose of Richard Dutrow long ago. It should never have taken this long to finally get rid of him.

And Gary West, the author of this article, should be ashamed of himself for twisting the facts just to strengthen his argument.

It isn't the 18% winning trainers who have us questioning their integrity and begging for more scrutiny into their operating methods; it's those obscure trainers, who have suddenly proclaimed their genius by winning upwards of 30% of their starts...and they can be found in practically every racing circuit out there.

Also, Mr. West's statement that "these suspicions are encouraged by envy", is a slap in the face of every honest trainer in the game.

And please spare us the argument that some of these "supertrainers" have never been caught using illegal drugs...

The sport's laboratories are so underequipped, it has been widely reported that the cheaters are always a step or two ahead of detection.
I know I am in the minority on the drug issue and I do know that some cheat but from my perspective and from my experience in California there is no doubt in my mind that the real crooks who do the most harm to the game are some of the regulators/racing officials who are supposed to act in the best interest of Horse Racing. It's a combination of incompetence and corruption. Slowly but surely people are seeing this play out in California.

Here is one of the best examples.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/63099/mullins-to-fight-70-day-ban-to-bitter-end

Excerpt:


Frank Moore, chief of the CHRB's investigation unit from November 2000 until his retirement in February 2007, supports Mullins' contention that he was being pursued by Fermin.

"The truth is we were targeting Jeff Mullins; he was one of several trainers," Moore said. "We were concentrating on him. We had his barn under surveillance. We stationed investigators there."

Barn searches, he said, were routine and the horses of certain trainers, including Mullins, were subject to out-of-competition testing for blood doping.

A document obtained by The Blood-Horse of an email message from Fermin lists Mullins as one of five trainers whose horses' blood samples were to be retained and frozen for future testing. The UC Davis lab keeps hundreds of such samples in storage so they can be tested again as new substances are identified.

Moore said it was an odd time to be a CHRB investigator. Fermin, he noted, came into office promising to clean up drug cheating. Her predecessor, Roy C. Wood, had been criticized by some for settling on the side of leniency with trainers found responsible for medication violations.

"Mullins was winning at the time and if you were winning at a high percentage, you were presumed to be cheating," Moore said. "The investigator's job was to find out how."

Mullins' objection to his treatment begins with the 2006 case involving Robs Coin, an Idaho-bred claiming horse he took for $32,000 on behalf of owner Darren Carraway. Robs Coin finished second in a $40,000 claiming race at Hollywood Park July 8, 2006 and was randomly selected for post-race testing.

Analysis of the urine sample done by the equine testing laboratory at the University of California-Davis resulted in a positive finding for mepivacaine, a local anesthetic commonly used for suturing after routine veterinary procedures. Mullins vigorously protested his innocence in the case, saying the horse was perfectly sound and would not have required mepivacaine for any purpose.

Jerald Mosely, the deputy attorney general prosecuting the case, did not submit the results of a report from Dr. Gus Cothran, a DNA expert from Texas A&M University, according to the report of the administrative law judge. Cothran, who was acting in response to a request from Mosely, compared the original urine sample tested by UC-Davis to urine, blood and hair samples taken from Robs Coin.

According to his affidavit at the time, "the original urine sample (found to contain mepivacaine) was contaminated with the presence of more than one horse."

Read more: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/63099/mullins-to-fight-70-day-ban-to-bitter-end#ixzz1bhe9Vm00

[andymays]

CHRB Whistle Blower Sues Agency | BloodHorse.com
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/62861/chrb-whistle-blower-sues-agency

Excerpt:
Beginning in July 2006, Atashkar alleged he became aware of improper activities by Fermin, Shapiro and others, including "misappropriation of taxpayer funds by CHRB executives; backdating of contracts in favor of friends of CHRB executives; the illegal collection of funds for the benefit of Shapiro and Fermin; pornography and inappropriate video stored in CHRB computer system."

He claimed, in an interview, that he has the documentation to prove that Fermin and Shapiro misused the testing system for Total Carbon Dioxide (TCO2), known as "green sheets," to target individual trainers for prosecution. They also used insider information to warn favored trainers of upcoming tests for particular medications, he charged, and circumvented state hiring practices to employ trainer Darrell Vienna as a board consultant and Dr. Rick Arthur as the CHRB's equine medical director.

Once the defendants were informed of his charges, Atashkar said hostility on the job forced him to take an illness leave in late 2006, In February 2007 he and Frank Moore, then the CHRB's head of investigation, took Atashkar's allegations to the California Highway Patrol. As a result of that, he contends in the lawsuit, Fermin, Shapiro and Smith "began a campaign of retaliation."

[rwwupl]

Andy,

You and I can see the corruption on a daily basis. It has been this way for a long time, never more apparent than the present.

Political appointees?...yes ,that is what we have to represent us on the CHRB, they have been rewarded for their contributions in other fields with a seat on the BOARD.

It takes two years as a minimum for these people to grasp the basics of why they are there. 99% of the people they hear from are connected to the industry and have an axe to grind.

It should be noted that there are some people of good character involved on the Board and staff (not all).

When I had a conversation with a Board member on a current hot issue, he explained that he did not want to get into the nuts and bolts of the matter, he just wanted peace at any price. It was obvious that he did not want to learn about anything that he did not previously understand.

I think a better system would be to appoint "Sportsmen"...with no financial interest in the industry at all... such as many fine sportswriters and such... and what would be wrong with a horseplayer on the Board to represent that most important segment of the industry?

The Board in California has been dominated for decades by licensed horse owners who are also members of the TOC.

The results are self evident.

Why do we need this?

Roger Way

[Hanover1]

Here we go again....Mullins, really? Care to guess how many in harness are training at a .350 clip and higher? Many if not most of the top ones......and it would be the regulators who have failed, instead of targeting anyone. Close to beyond repair.

[thaskalos]

Here we go again....Mullins, really? Care to guess how many in harness are training at a .350 clip and higher? Many if not most of the top ones......and it would be the regulators who have failed, instead of targeting anyone. Close to beyond repair.
Yeah...

We all know how pro-horseplayer Mullins has always been...

We should all be enraged by this unfair treatment that he has been subjected to in this game. :)

[andymays]

Yeah...

We all know how pro-horseplayer Mullins has always been...

We should all be enraged by this unfair treatment that he has been subjected to in this game. :)

This is where you guys go off the rails and here's why:

Once you say it's OK for guys like Mullins to be targeted and penalized for something that may or may not be valid just because you believe that he must be guilty of something then the whole system gets corrupted. I don't know why most Horseplayers automatically assume that these guys are evil geniuses. They may know a lot about Training a horse but they aren't the brightest people in the world when it comes to public relations or anything else outside of Training. The people who monitor the sport should be above reproach and they clearly aren't.

================================================== =

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2011/10/22/2011-10-22_as_10year_ban_hangs_over_rick_dutrow_opinions_v ary_about_controversial_horse_tra.html

Excerpt:

But Anthony admits Rick has a serious flaw.

"He has a lack of respect for some people," Anthony says. "Rick also had a lack of respect for authority."

[craigbraddick]

In simple terms politicians or political appointees should not be allowed to regulate anything.

I am sorry but the deference given to many of these people is little short of sickening. I do not need a politician to tell me what is a vice and how it should be taxed, neither do I need them to regulate an already over regulted sport.

It is time the sport en masse stood up to politicians and state this and federal that and tell them where to shove it in no uncertain terms.

Craig.

[andymays]

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_c337d34f-e4f4-51bd-a1a1-2a67e150aae3.html

Excerpt:

A Post-Dispatch analysis of the group's data found that the winners in that debate — the horse racing tracks, their owners and others in favor of the expansion legislation — gave far more money than did the state's established casinos, which are against the expansion bill.

The Post-Dispatch also found that the votes of legislators generally tracked with where they got their money: Those who received primarily horse racing donations this year supported the expansion bill by a roughly 2-to-1 margin in the May floor votes of the Illinois House and Senate. Those who primarily received money from the existing casinos ended up voting against the bill by roughly the same margin.

"Either legislators are for sale, and they looked around at who gave to them for how to vote ... or the givers looked to the friendly legislators" and rewarded them, said the watchdog group's David Morrison.

[FenceBored]

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_c337d34f-e4f4-51bd-a1a1-2a67e150aae3.html

Excerpt:

A Post-Dispatch analysis of the group's data found that the winners in that debate — the horse racing tracks, their owners and others in favor of the expansion legislation — gave far more money than did the state's established casinos, which are against the expansion bill.

The Post-Dispatch also found that the votes of legislators generally tracked with where they got their money: Those who received primarily horse racing donations this year supported the expansion bill by a roughly 2-to-1 margin in the May floor votes of the Illinois House and Senate. Those who primarily received money from the existing casinos ended up voting against the bill by roughly the same margin.

"Either legislators are for sale, and they looked around at who gave to them for how to vote ... or the givers looked to the friendly legislators" and rewarded them, said the watchdog group's David Morrison.

Someone who supports VLTs should be more likely to give money to politicians who oppose VLTs? :confused:

[thaskalos]

This is where you guys go off the rails and here's why:

Once you say it's OK for guys like Mullins to be targeted and penalized for something that may or may not be valid just because you believe that he must be guilty of something then the whole system gets corrupted. I don't know why most Horseplayers automatically assume that these guys are evil geniuses. They may know a lot about Training a horse but they aren't the brightest people in the world when it comes to public relations or anything else outside of Training. The people who monitor the sport should be above reproach and they clearly aren't.
You have misunderstood me sir,

I didn't mean that "it's OK for guys like Mullins to be targeted and penalized for something that may or may not be valid just because I believe that he must be guilty of something"...I was commenting about Jeff Mullins in particular!

Mullins is the epitomy of everything that is wrong with this game...not only when it comes to drug violations, but also when it comes to having a complete and total disregard for the horseplayer and his rights in this game.

Are we supposed to forget his scathing comments about us horseplayers in 2005-2006?

You parade this article in front of us, about this "alleged" injustice against him, as if we are supposed to feel sorry for him...like he is a paragon of virtue or something...

Mullins is a parasite, as far as the horseplayer is concerned...and he deserves no sympathy from the horseplayer AT ALL!

Couldn't you find a better guy to make your point with?

[andymays]

http://www.ocregister.com/news/cadiz-190340-water-brackpool.html

Excerpt:

A 51-year-old British-born entrepreneur, Brackpool owns thoroughbreds and a Manhattan Beach country club and counts among his friends some of the most powerful people in California: Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa; Susan Kennedy, Gov. Schwarzenegger’s chief of staff; and, most famously, former Gov. Gray Davis.

He was also fined in the early 1980s for violating British securities law, although he’s maintained it was the equivalent of misdemeanor charges.
Brackpool and his company’s more than $100,000 in campaign contributions to then Gov. Davis raised red flags when Met took a hard look at Cadiz in 2001 and 2002.

If approved, Brackpool and his company Cadiz Inc. would have made a fortune. “There was certainly a lot of suspicion and wondering,” said Mark Watton, secretary of the San Diego County Water Authority and a member of the Met board at the time. “What is Keith doing because he’s a confidant of the governor?”
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/09/the-governor-today-announced-the-appointment-of-one-of-los-angeles-mayor-antonio-villaraigosas-closest-friends-and-confida.html

Excerpt:

Arnold Schwarzenegger today announced the nomination of one of Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa’s closest friends and confidants, Keith Brackpool, to the California Horse Racing Board.

Brackpool, 52, is chief executive of Cadiz, a company that hopes to complete a water banking project in the Mojave Desert. Cadiz, based in Los Angeles, had tried unsuccessfully to sell the Metropolitan Water District on a $150-million water storage plan in the eastern Mojave Desert.

Villaraigosa worked as a consultant for Cadiz before he was elected mayor in 2005, and the governor's chief of staff, Susan Kennedy, also used to work for Cadiz: In 2005, while Kennedy was serving on the state Public Utilities Commission, the firm paid her $120,000 in consulting fees.

Appointments to the horse racing board are subject to Senate confirmation, and compensation for the post is limited to a $100 per diem. Brackpool is a Democrat.
================================================== =============

http://finance.sfgate.com/hearst.sfgate/news/read?GUID=19005377

Excerpt:

Robbins Umeda LPP's investigation focuses on whether the directors and officers of Cadiz harmed the company by breaching their fiduciary duties to shareholders. In particular, Robbins Umeda LLP is investigating the decision by the company's board of directors to dramatically increase executive compensation by as much as 210% for fiscal year 2010, despite Cadiz's meek financial performance during the same period. In 2010, Cadiz's shareholders saw the company's stock yield a meager 4% annual return. Nevertheless, Cadiz's board voted to approve a 210% increase in compensation for Chief Executive Officer Keith Brackpool. Similarly, Cadiz's Chief Financial Officer Timothy Shaheen, was awarded a 149% increase in total compensation in 2010.

Notably, on June 2, 2011, a majority of the company's shareholders expressed their disapproval for this and other executive pay packages by failing to vote in favor of the company's 2010 CEO and top executive compensation increases.
================================================== =====

How about this stuff?

[andymays]

You have misunderstood me sir,

I didn't mean that "it's OK for guys like Mullins to be targeted and penalized for something that may or may not be valid just because I believe that he must be guilty of something"...I was commenting about Jeff Mullins in particular!

Mullins is the epitomy of everything that is wrong with this game...not only when it comes to drug violations, but also when it comes to having a complete and total disregard for the horseplayer and his rights in this game.

Are we supposed to forget his scathing comments about us horseplayers in 2005-2006?

You parade this article in front of us, about this "alleged" injustice against him, as if we are supposed to feel sorry for him...like he is a paragon of virtue or something...

Mullins is a parasite, as far as the horseplayer is concered...and he deserves no sympathy from the horseplayer AT ALL!

Couldn't you find a better guy to make your point with?

Your indignation is noted but if you want to judge the man on one stupid quote that I'm sure he regrets then just about everyone would be disqualified according to your standard. Why do you think that guys like Mullins know better? Most of these guys are knuckleheads when it comes to speaking in public. You seem to want to ban them from racing for being politically incorrect. :confused:

[thaskalos]

Your indignation is noted but if you want to judge the man on one stupid quote that I'm sure he regrets then just about everyone would be disqualified according to your standard. Why do you think that guys like Mullins know better? Most of these guys are knuckleheads when it comes to speaking in public. You seem to want to ban them from racing for being politically incorrect. :confused:
You are sure that he regrets it?

Why? Did he offer us an apology?

Was he roundly criticized or reprimanded by the industry for his deeply insulting comments about us?

How many businesses do you know of where the customers can be publicly insulted to this extent...without the offending party being forced to apologize...or suffer any consequences at all as a result of his actions?

Business as usual for California racing I guess...

[andymays]

You are sure that he regrets it?

Why? Did he offer us an apology?

Was he roundly criticized or reprimanded by the industry for his deeply insulting comments to us?

How many businesses do you know of where the customers can be publicly insulted to this extent...without the offending party being forced to apologize...or suffer any consequences at all as a result of his actions?

Business as usual for California racing I guess...

First of all he was referring to all the things that could happen in a race and how difficult it is to predict the outcome of a race. You're free to believe what you believe but you are wrong.

As far as California goes the only reason you guys know as much about the situation out here is because a handful of people are constantly posting about the stuff that happens out here. I seriously doubt that California racing is more corrupt than racing in Illinois or many other jurisdictions. Do some digging and talk to people out there and maybe you can expose some of the stuff going on in your state.

[FenceBored]

You are sure that he regrets it?

Why? Did he offer us an apology?

Was he roundly criticized or reprimanded by the industry for his deeply insulting comments about us?

How many businesses do you know of where the customers can be publicly insulted to this extent...without the offending party being forced to apologize...or suffer any consequences at all as a result of his actions?

Business as usual for California racing I guess...

Yes, he thinks he did:
Trainer Jeff Mullins, center of controversy over comments made in Sunday's Los Angeles Times, expressed regret that his remarks offended anyone and contended that the article's author, columnist T.J. Simers, used his quotes entirely out of context.
Read more: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/27078/mullins-says-columnist-used-quotes-out-of-context#ixzz1biDgZikv

Interesting read (complete with deflection/'conflict of interest rumor mongering' toward Dr. Rick Arthur and Richard Mandella).

[Tom]

As far as California goes the only reason you guys know as much about the situation out here is because a handful of people are constantly posting about the stuff that happens out here. I seriously doubt that California racing is more corrupt than racing in Illinois or many other jurisdictions. Do some digging and talk to people out there and maybe you can expose some of the stuff going on in your state.

Well, then if you post all this stuff, don't blame us for assuming it is worse than anywhere else. Maybe we don't care what is going on in our own states.

[thaskalos]

First of all he was referring to all the things that could happen in a race and how difficult it is to predict the outcome of a race. You're free to believe what you believe but you are wrong.

As far as California goes the only reason you guys know as much about the situation out here is because a handful of people are constantly posting about the stuff that happens out here. I seriously doubt that California racing is more corrupt than racing in Illinois or many other jurisdictions. Do some digging and talk to people out there and maybe you can expose some of the stuff going on in your state.

No Mr. Andymays...you are dead wrong!

Mullins did not just "refer to all the things that could happen in a race and how difficult it is to predict the outcome..."

He blamed the HORSEPLAYERS for his suspension, calling us "addicts" and "losers"...because we dare ask that the game be protected from scum like him.

Your role as a self-appointed crusader for the horseplayer is humorous to me...as is your belief that we only find out about what happens out in California because guys like you keep us informed.

I am not telling you what to do in California...

Who are you to tell me that I should dig up dirt about the racing here in Illinois?

At least in Illinois, the racing leaders have the good sense to keep their mouths shut for the most part...so they don't reveal how ignorant they really are...

[andymays]

Well, then if you post all this stuff, don't blame us for assuming it is worse than anywhere else. Maybe we don't care what is going on in our own states.

I'm giving the people looking at the thread examples to back up my opinion.

My point and the point of this thread is to show that political appointees are bad for the game in most cases.

[andymays]

No Mr. Andymays...you are dead wrong!

Mullins did not just "refer to all the things that could happen in a race and how difficult it is to predict the outcome..."

He blamed the HORSEPLAYERS for his suspension, calling us "addicts" and "losers"...because we dare ask that the game be protected from scum like him.

Your role as a self-appointed crusader for the horseplayer is humorous to me...as is your belief that we only find out about what happens out in California because guys like you keep us informed.

I am not telling you what to do in California...

Who are you to tell me that I should dig up dirt about the racing here in Illinois?

At least in Illinois, the racing leaders have the good sense to keep their mouths shut for the most part...so they don't reveal how ignorant they really are...

Here we go with the personal stuff. :rolleyes:

If what I do and what I post about California offends you then you're the one with a problem. As far as the "self appointed" thing do you care to expand on what your really are talking about?

Why do you seem to resent what I do?

[thaskalos]

I'm giving the people looking at the thread examples to back up my opinion.

My point and the point of this thread is to show that political appointees are bad for the game in most cases.
Ok...political appointees are bad for the game in most cases. We agree!

But can we say that the current regime is GOOD for the game?

If the current governing body is bad for the game...and so is the political intervention...what do we do then?

Play a game of musical chairs...where one group of horsemen replaces another...while the horseplayer is waiting in the wings for the new group's promises to come to fruition?

[andymays]

Ok...political appointees are bad for the game in most cases. We agree!

But can we say that the current regime is GOOD for the game?

If the current governing body is bad for the game...and so is the political intervention...what do we do then?

Play a game of musical chairs...where one group of horsemen replaces another...while the horseplayer is waiting in the wings for the new group's promises to come to fruition?

You have a board with representatives from all segments of the industry including Bettors. On serious issues like the claiming rule change in California then you let Owners and Trainers vote. Political appointees have no business making these types of decisions.

[thaskalos]

Here we go with the personal stuff. :rolleyes:

If what I do and what I post about California offends you then you're the one with a problem. As far as the "self appointed" thing do you care to expand on what your really are talking about?

Why do you seem to resent what I do?
I couldn't care less what you do Andy...and you are welcome to continue doing it...

Just don't tell us that we only know about California racing what YOU - and a few others - are kind enough to reveal to us.

You don't know what I, or anybody else, knows or doesn't know...

And, just because we don't advertise our own involvement in this game like you do...don't assume that we aren't doing our part...

Some of us go to meetings too...but we don't like to publicize it as much...

[andymays]

I couldn't care less what you do Andy...and you are welcome to continue doing it...

Just don't tell us that we only know about California racing what YOU - and a few others - are kind enough to reveal to us.

You don't know what I, or anybody else, knows or doesn't know...

And, just because we don't advertise our own involvement in this game like you do...don't assume that we don't do our part...

Some of us go to meetings too...but we don't like to publicize it as much...

I'm telling you the truth about what goes on here and you seem to be offended by that because it doesn't fit with your opinion.

I can tell from your posts that you are somewhat ignorant about the facts in California.

I'm not running around begging people to put me in articles or on the radio.

Again, why do you seem to resent what I do?

[thaskalos]

I'm telling you the truth about what goes on here and you seem to be offended by that because it doesn't fit with your opinion.

I can tell from your posts that you are somewhat ignorant about the facts in California.

I'm not running around begging people to put me in articles or on the radio.

Again, why do you seem to resent what I do?

Of course I am ignorant about the facts in California...

After all...I haven't attended all the meetings that you have been to...as you were kind enough to repeatedly remind me of in the past.

And how fortunate we are that you have participated in those meetings too...

I, for one, would hate to think of what California racing would be without you...

[andymays]

Of course I am ignorant about the facts in California...

After all...I haven't attended all the meetings that you have been to...as you were kind enough to repeatedly remind me of in the past.

And how fortunate we are that you have participated in those meetings too...

I, for one, would hate to think of what California racing would be without you...

Again, for the third time, why do you resent what I do in California?

[thaskalos]

Again, for the third time, why do you resent what I do in California?
Andy, I don't know WHAT you do in California...

You claim to be infuriated with the racing board in California, and to be FOR the California boycott...but then, you try to drum up business for every cockamamie low-takeout gimmick bet that California offers to appease us.

When we horseplayers talk about sticking with the boycott until the takeout hike is rescinded...you point out to us the injustice of having friends of yours within the game suffer as a result of the boycott and the mutuel handle declines that ensue as a result.

Who can tell what you do...or where your allegiance lies...

[andymays]

Andy, I don't know WHAT you do in California...

You claim to infuriated with the racing board in California, and to be FOR the California boycott...but then, you try to drum up business for every cockamamie low-takeout gimmick bet that California offers to appease us.

When we horseplayers talk about sticking with the boycott until the takeout hike is rescinded...you point out to us the injustice of having friends of yours within the game suffer as a result of the boycott and the mutuel handle declines that ensue as a result.

Who can tell what you do...or where your allegiance lies...

You're a real piece of work.

In this thread I have cited many examples of political appointees gone wrong but you choose to make the thread about me. That really takes the cake. Then on top of that you seems to be implying that I'm committing some sort of malfeasance.

My time and efforts are donated and I don't get paid for anything I do out here. Jeff and Roger will tell you that there is a strategy behind what we do and don't do.

You've become a cheap shot artist. Good luck with that. :ThmbDown:

[thaskalos]

You're a real piece of work.

In this thread I have cited many examples of political appointees gone wrong but you choose to make the thread about me. That really takes the cake. Then on top of that you seems to be implying that I'm committing some sort of malfeasance.

My time and efforts are donated and I don't get paid for anything I do out here. Jeff and Roger will tell you that there is a strategy behind what we do and don't do.

You've become a cheap shot artist. Good luck with that. :ThmbDown:
I never intended this to get personal; I was only stating my opinion on Mr. Mullins...and California racing in general...

It was YOU who pushed me to make personal comments...by repeatedly egging me on to tell you "what I resent about what you do in California".

Everything I said in post #40 is true, and can be easily varified...and nowhere did I imply that you "don't volunteer your time" when you go to those meetings in California.

As far as me being a "cheap shot artist"...I defy you to find even ONE post of mine on this board that supports this assertion of yours!

[andymays]

I never intended this to get personal; I was only stating my opinion on Mr. Mullins...and California racing in general...

It was YOU who pushed me to make personal comments...by repeatedly egging me on to tell you "what I resent about what you do in California".

Everything I said in post #40 is true, and can be easily varified...and nowhere did I imply that you "don't volunteer your time" when you go to those meetings in California.

As far as me being a "cheap shot artist"...I defy you to find even ONE post of mine on this board that supports this assertion of yours!

Are you that weak minded that you want to claim that I made you write what you wrote? :lol:

You've taken more than one cheap shot at me in this thread. There is a record of what I've done and haven't done along with witnesses such as Jeff, Roger, and Barry.

You want to judge Jeff Mullins for saying something stupid and here you are doing the same thing. Should I judge you by some stupid comments that you've made in this thread?

[thaskalos]

Should I judge you by some stupid comments that you've made in this thread?
You clearly have...and I couldn't care less.

[andymays]

You clearly have...and I couldn't care less.
:lol:

Right! :D

[thaskalos]

There is a record of what I've done and haven't done along with witnesses such as Jeff, Roger, and Barry.

Yes...but Jeff, Roger, and Barry don't take our criticism of California racing as personally as you do.

With you...all criticism against California racing gets turned into a show of unappreciation for all the time and effort you put into improving things in that state.

Is it possible for us to make a negative comment about the state of racing in California...without running the risk of directly offending you?

It's not all about YOU, you know...

[andymays]

Yes...but Jeff, Roger, and Barry don't take our criticism of California racing as personally as you do.

With you...all criticism against California racing gets turned into a show of unappreciation for all the time and effort you put into improving things in that state.

Is it possible for us to make a negative comment about the state of racing in California...without running the risk of directly offending you?

It's not all about YOU, you know...

You're the one who made it about me despite my posting articles showing that some political appointees are bad for the game. Aren't you outraged that the guy working for the Attorney Generals Office withheld exculpatory evidence in the Mullins Case? These guys have a history of doing this kind of stuff. That's the point of the thread.

I have no idea what your problem is other than you don't like the way I post or the way I do things. Jeff, Roger, and Barry all play their own roles and I play mine. It is what it is. How far do you want to take this?

[thaskalos]

You're the one who made it about me despite my posting articles showing that some political appointees are bad for the game. Aren't you outraged that the guy working for the Attorney Generals Office withheld exculpatory evidence in the Mullins Case? These guys have a history of doing this kind of stuff. That's the point of the thread.

I have no idea what your problem is other than you don't like the way I post or the way I do things. Jeff, Roger, and Barry all play their own roles and I play mine. It is what it is. How far do you want to take this?

Take back what you said about me being a cheap-shot artist...or I am taking this "all the way" -- or at least as far as PA will allow...

I seem to be in a confrontational mood lately...:)

[andymays]

Take back what you said about me being a cheap-shot artist...or I am taking this "all the way" -- or at least as far as PA will allow...

I seem to be in a confrontational mood lately...:)

Let me put it to you this way. Up until a couple of years ago I was minding my own business as a handicapper. Like you I thought I knew what was going on and made judgements like the ones you're making. Unless you're involved you have no idea how things work in different jurisdictions. The problems in California are directly attributable to the CHRB leadership and the TOC for the most part. The tracks do not control their wagering menu or takeout rates.

[thaskalos]

Let me put it to you this way. Up until a couple of years ago I was minding my own business as a handicapper. Like you I thought I knew what was going on and made judgements like the ones you're making. Unless you're involved you have no idea how things work in different jurisdictions. The problems in California are directly attributable to the CHRB leadership and the TOC for the most part. The tracks do not control their wagering menu or takeout rates.
See Andy...

When you present your opinion in a clear and succinct manner...I cannot argue with you.

And now...here is my side of the argument...

I have no desire to be anything more than a bettor...nor do I pretend to know as much as you do about the "behind-the-scenes" happenings of California racing.

But, as a long-time serious bettor, and supporter of California racing in years past, I reserve the right to criticize the leaders of that state for the insulting comments that they have made at the horseplayer's expense.

Compare me to a regular customer...who is repeatedly insulted by a business which he has been actively patronizing for many years.

Even the trainers don't make any sense in that state.

"The GAMBLERS are needed in our game, of course" says Mr. Bob Baffert, in defense of the takeout increase..."but they can leave and go play some other game. We are kinda STUCK here..."

Why is Bob Baffert "stuck" in this game?

Why can't HE go and find something else to do for a living...if he is not happy with his results in this game?

Why should Baffert be guaranteed a good living from this game...while the horseplayer is being pushed to extinction?

Of course change is needed...and we agree that political intervention is not the best answer to the needs of this game.

But the horseplayer has a hard time accepting that the politicians will do a worse job than the game's leadership has been doing running this game in recent years.

[jelly]

Let me put it to you this way. Up until a couple of years ago I was minding my own business as a handicapper. Like you I thought I knew what was going on and made judgements like the ones you're making. Unless you're involved you have no idea how things work in different jurisdictions. The problems in California are directly attributable to the CHRB leadership and the TOC for the most part. The tracks do not control their wagering menu or takeout rates.




That may be true but they don't have to sit on their hands.They have a voice.
You hear very little from the tracks.




Keep up the good work!

[andymays]

That may be true but they don't have to sit on their hands.They have a voice.
You hear very little from the tracks.

Keep up the good work!

You would be surprised at how little power they have.

[andymays]

CHRB wins coveted Chutzpah Award

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/chrb-wins-coveted-chutzpah-award/

Excerpt:

The Paulick Report is proud to announce that the California Horse Racing Board has been named the recipient of the 2011 Chutzpah Award, for its chest-thumping hypocrisy in the matter of Frank J. Monteleone, the former trainer and current holder of a jockey’s agent license who recently pleaded no contest to a felony charge of fraud after money in the horseman’s account of a former owner had disappeared.

[Robert Goren]

You would be surprised at how little power they have.Actually that is true. The horsemen run the show almost every place now and that has been true since the 1970s. There is one thing that is for sure, the bettors have no power. They don't even power to effect change in a lot of places by withholding their bets anymore with the advent of racinos.

[Robert Fischer]

Are Political Appointees the best people to regulate the sport?

http://espn.go.com/horse-racing/story/_/id/7131109/steer-clear-iceberg

Excerpt:

Even more alarming is the possibility that the Dutrow ruling is just the beginning and that regulators everywhere, as some have suggested, will begin to crack down on the sport. It's not the idea of a crackdown that alarms, but the further intrusion of regulators.

Generally, they're political appointees, these regulators. And when they assume their seat on the board of a state's regulatory agency, they often possess enough understanding and knowledge of horse racing to fill, perhaps, half a thimble. Some, it's true, educate themselves admirably, and most have lofty intentions. But many thimbles remain unfilled. Regulators cracking down -- it's a chilling thought,



"Even more alarming"
"enough understanding and knowledge of horse racing to fill, perhaps, half a thimble"
"regulators cracking down -- it's a chilling thought"
etc... ?
to be honest i was leaning towards a system where "political appointees" hire the best sports brains as a consultant/operations officers; such as general managers, owners, elite head coaches, and rarely ex-players who happen to possess great insight. Unexpectedly linking the proposed question to horse racing, I am leaning toward some of the elite world-class trainers who are famous for their mastery of their art and of their prudence, as opposed to those with notoriety. The same measures apply to world-class racing operations as, and these operations will be found to be employing many of the training candidates, and will posses a broad insight into the sport.

However it was very dissapointing to read the introduction. In just two paragraphs I realize I had been duped into thought.