Albert Pujols ranks?

[Casino]

Even before last night no one in the history of the game has put together 10 straight seasons like Pujols.So is he in your top ten of all time?In my opinion he maybe the greatest 1st baseman to play the game.

[Robert Goren]

The gold standard for first basemen is Lou Gehrig. Pujols has a pretty good shot of ending up as the runner up. How much will the Cubs pay this guy?

[Casino]

The gold standard for first basemen is Lou Gehrig. Pujols has a pretty good shot of ending up as the runner up. How much will the Cubs pay this guy?

Either the Cards or the Cubs will either sign Pujols or Fielder.

[Wiley]

Don't care for McCarver as an announcer, but he did have a nice line talking about Pujols last night, think after his second home run, Buck said "Pujols is on a hot streak" and McCarver said "He's been on a hot streak for 11 years!"

[ElKabong]

His mental error cost the Cards game 2, or at least played the biggest part...His bat helped the Cards win game 3....so far it's been a wash for Pujols in the series.

It'll be interesting to see how he does in games 5-6-7. I dunno if the R's pitchers will pitch around him. Holland shut him down tonite.

[maddog42]

Even before last night no one in the history of the game has put together 10 straight seasons like Pujols.So is he in your top ten of all time?In my opinion he maybe the greatest 1st baseman to play the game.

Definitely top 10. Maybe better.

[Canarsie]

Top 10 in my lifetime yes.

All time me thinks not. While it may not be entirely fair I always take into account that the older players traveled by train, flannel uniforms, played at least ten doubleheaders a year bare minimum, most had jobs in the off season to supplement their income, and there were less teams with far more people growing up playing baseball enhancing the player pool for the draft.

But he is one hell of a player.

[ManU918]

Definitely top 10. Maybe better.

So you think he is better then Ruth, Gehrig, Williams, Aaron, Cobb, Musial, DiMaggio, Mays, Mantle, and Walter Johnson? If we are going just by position players then take out Johnson and put in Honus Wagner and or Jimmie Foxx?

[ElKabong]

If Pujols did call for the hit and run that enabled the R's to get out of a pinch in the later innings, this would make the second game Pujols cost his team in the world series.

But all anyone will remember is that one game where he hit 3 hr's even tho the entire Card lineup ravaged Ranger pitching that night. That's the typical baseball fan mentality. ESPN sportscenter highlight stuff, w/o seeing the entire picture.

Over rated.

So is CJ, who is a good 2nd or 3rd starter, but not worth what he's about to sign for with some team....

[skate]

welp if you include "Stan the Man", the PU (one game wonder) comes in about 8th for top first baser.


and if he doesnt do something to win a series game, he goes lower yet.

he hits three HR with a 10 run lead, nice but let me see if he Hits One HR to win a game....hey, nice guy i understand that.:cool:

[Valuist]

So you think he is better then Ruth, Gehrig, Williams, Aaron, Cobb, Musial, DiMaggio, Mays, Mantle, and Walter Johnson? If we are going just by position players then take out Johnson and put in Honus Wagner and or Jimmie Foxx?

I don't know how one can compare a pitcher from 100 years ago to a position player today.

I know we love to wax nostalgic, but its much more difficult to become a top player now. Years ago, it was only Americans and only white Americans. How many Dominican players did DiMaggio or Cobb play against? Yeah Ruth and Gehrig would've been great in any era because they were so dominant but a lot of so-called HoFers from the 1930s era wouldn't stack up if they had to play against the pool of talent we draw from now.

[Canarsie]

If Pujols did call for the hit and run that enabled the R's to get out of a pinch in the later innings, this would make the second game Pujols cost his team in the world series.



I am absolutely shocked what I heard on the radio today that many players have the authority to call for a hit and run. Tony Gwynn (well I can see that) and a few Yankees (can't remember) were given carte blanche to do it. I'm sure more of this will come out in the next few days. Al Leiter is on now saying a few players in Toronto had the option when he played.

[Valuist]

I didn't even touch on the specialization issues. A guy on the radio refers to the pre WW2 era as the "meat era" in MLB. Basically if you couldn't hit .300, you were worthless as a hitter. Starters usually pitched all game; no sliders or cutters. No righty/lefty platoons. No Mariano Riveras to close out games.

[Robert Fischer]

In my opinion he maybe the greatest 1st baseman to play the game.

He's up there with all-time greats like Gehrig, Greenberg, and Foxx.

Ranking 1b is a little different than ranking a position like CF, SS, or Catcher, where fielding ability is a limiting factor.

When we rank 1st baseman, we actually tend to toss out fielding considerations all together.

Some could argue that if we made a top-10 ranking for each position, that some of the lower ranking top-10 1st sackers might be worse "baseball players" than your 10th ranked catcher, or shortstop etc.. (and with all the emphasis on stats like O.P.S. wouldn't surprise to see a stats geek or two take up the cause of the slugger either)

PUJOLS easily ranks top 5 among first baseman hitters. Some of the key names are GEHRIG, GREENBERG, FOXX, MCGWIRE.

guys like RUTH, WILLIAMS, BONDS hit better and could have easily played first base, but still would not knock PUJOLS out of top 10 hitting 1b (placing him 8th at worst).

If you added guys like mantle Dimaggio, Hornsby, Musial and said "they are better baseball players and could have played first base" it's a tight debate, because these guys could only add so much at first base... their improved fielding wouldn't mean a lot of runs or wins that Pujols wouldn't have saved, and it would be left up to their baserunning to close the gap to Pujols' better O.P.S.
Some of that baserunning is already reflected in the O.P.S. - for example Dimaggio "legging out" more of his doubles and extra base hits, while Pujols likely hit them in the gap.


long way to say PUJOLS = GOOD

[cj]

PUJOLS easily ranks top 5 among first baseman hitters. Some of the key names are GEHRIG, GREENBERG, FOXX, MCGWIRE.


McGwire? ummm, no.

[skate]

Nobody ever talks "First Baseman" without Stan Musial....never.:cool:

[maddog42]

Top 10 in my lifetime yes.

All time me thinks not. While it may not be entirely fair I always take into account that the older players traveled by train, flannel uniforms, played at least ten doubleheaders a year bare minimum, most had jobs in the off season to supplement their income, and there were less teams with far more people growing up playing baseball enhancing the player pool for the draft.

But he is one hell of a player.

Top 10 in my lifetime? Absolutely. Do you guys have some Crystal Ball that allows you to see these old-timers play? I have a baseball encyclopedia and it tells me that Pujols has done a few things that about 4 players have done in history. All you can use are stats and reps.
In 1950 Jim Thorpe was rated the best athlete in a major press poll over Ruth, Gehrig etc. for the first half of the 20th century. Were they right? Hellifiknow. I didn't see those guys play.
The guys I DID see play: Mantle,Mays,Gibson, Mcgwire, Koufax, Bench Bonds, Aaron. Pujols is right there, and he isn't finished yet. Will he be a consensus top 100 player ? Probably. Top 10 maybe. In my opinion he will be.
I also noticed while looking over the sporting news Top 100 players, that virtually none of the top 15 played after 1960.
Only Aaron do they put in the top 15. So no player in the last fifty years(except Aaron) is rated in the top 15? This seems like bullshit. Nostalgia and the Steroid era have hurt the reps of a lot of really good players.
Does this list seem biased toward the first half of the 20th century? I have been accused of being an old fogey, but baseball is really full of old fogeys.

[maddog42]

Top 10 in my lifetime yes.

All time me thinks not. While it may not be entirely fair I always take into account that the older players traveled by train, flannel uniforms, played at least ten doubleheaders a year bare minimum, most had jobs in the off season to supplement their income, and there were less teams with far more people growing up playing baseball enhancing the player pool for the draft.

But he is one hell of a player.

I don't really have a problem with your statement here, except one thing:
Night time games. I have a few good athletes in my family, and they tell me hitting a baseball is one of the toughest things to do in sports. Hitting at night
with less than optimal lighting conditions is really really tough. I don't think any pre 1960 baseball players had to do that.

[maddog42]

Top 10 in my lifetime? Absolutely. Do you guys have some Crystal Ball that allows you to see these old-timers play? I have a baseball encyclopedia and it tells me that Pujols has done a few things that about 4 players have done in history. All you can use are stats and reps.
In 1950 Jim Thorpe was rated the best athlete in a major press poll over Ruth, Gehrig etc. for the first half of the 20th century. Were they right? Hellifiknow. I didn't see those guys play.
The guys I DID see play: Mantle,Mays,Gibson, Mcgwire, Koufax, Bench Bonds, Aaron. Pujols is right there, and he isn't finished yet. Will he be a consensus top 100 player ? Probably. Top 10 maybe. In my opinion he will be.
I also noticed while looking over the sporting news Top 100 players, that virtually none of the top 15 played after 1960.
Only Aaron do they put in the top 15. So no player in the last fifty years(except Aaron) is rated in the top 15? This seems like bullshit. Nostalgia and the Steroid era have hurt the reps of a lot of really good players.
Does this list seem biased toward the first half of the 20th century? I have been accused of being an old fogey, but baseball is really full of old fogeys.

Forgot about "say hey kid". Mays played into the 70's. I won't count musial who did play some in very early 60's. Pujols is ranked 30th all time batting average (minimum 1000 games).

[maddog42]

If Pujols did call for the hit and run that enabled the R's to get out of a pinch in the later innings, this would make the second game Pujols cost his team in the world series.

But all anyone will remember is that one game where he hit 3 hr's even tho the entire Card lineup ravaged Ranger pitching that night. That's the typical baseball fan mentality. ESPN sportscenter highlight stuff, w/o seeing the entire picture.

Over rated.

So is CJ, who is a good 2nd or 3rd starter, but not worth what he's about to sign for with some team....

Pujols with virtually no luck will become a 500 home run guy in the next couple of years. Coupled with a 310 plus batting average( I know he is batting 328 lifetime) he will statistically be one of the all-time monster hitters.
Overated? I think not.

[ElKabong]

McGwire? ummm, no.

Yeah, no kidding.

I'll go one further. 1b as a defensive position has never been awarded the respect it deserves. A good 1b can save IF's errors, and more importantly, save pitcher's pitch counts & register outs that could be baserunners.

[ElKabong]

Pujols with virtually no luck will become a 500 home run guy in the next couple of years. Coupled with a 310 plus batting average( I know he is batting 328 lifetime) he will statistically be one of the all-time monster hitters.
Overated? I think not.

Statistically? Yes I agree....But if the R's win this series there are 2 games the Cards lost that Pujols can be mostly to blame for. Games 2 and 5.

When I think of guys that put up big #'s but cost their team in different ways, the word Over Rated come to my mind...
(a)missing a cut off throw in the 9th inning allowing the winning run to move into scoring position, (b) calling for a hit and run with a slow'ish runner at first in the 7th inning of a tie game in game 5, (c) swinging at piss poor pitches in the 9th inning and striking out when his team needed base runners in game 5)

[ElKabong]

"top 10 players" was mentioned above....that deserves a thread of its own but I'll give a swing at ballplayers I've seen (from 63-present, non pitchers, screw stats....talkin' ballplayers)

Bench
Mays
Ichiro
Morgan
B.Robinson
Ozzie Smith
Alomar
Concepcion
Rose
Maxvill / Belanger / Vizquel / Jeter / Aparicio / Richardson / a few more defensive SS's.


Elvis Andrus is heading for this list. His overall game is becoming "Joe Morgan of shortstops". The SS for the Cubs could mature into a great one someday, but has a ways to go

[Canarsie]

I don't really have a problem with your statement here, except one thing:
Night time games. I have a few good athletes in my family, and they tell me hitting a baseball is one of the toughest things to do in sports. Hitting at night
with less than optimal lighting conditions is really really tough. I don't think any pre 1960 baseball players had to do that.

While I agree 100% with hitting a baseball is by far the hardest thing to do it stops there.

Back in that era they played night games that started at 8 o'clock they didn't play all day games. I'm sure a few on here will remember that starting time. Your only bolstering my argument the lighting back then was far worse then compared to today's stadiums.

Just look at who said this.

"It's a beautiful day for a night game." - Frankie Frisch

[Marshall Bennett]

While there are more players from nations other than ours, players train harder now and surely seem more fit than those years ago. There were a lot of "fat" ball players in the big leagues back then. I'm leaving steroids out of the equation. There's no doubt the ball travels further today. It's wound tighter. So while pitching has improved, I don't think it's surpassed what hitters have on their side either.
It still is difficult to compare the ages when comparing talent, almost like comparing NFL quarterbacks then and now. The games have changed a lot more than most people realize.

[Canarsie]

While there are more players from nations other than ours, players train harder now and surely seem more fit than those years ago. There were a lot of "fat" ball players in the big leagues back then. I'm leaving steroids out of the equation. There's no doubt the ball travels further today. It's wound tighter. So while pitching has improved, I don't think it's surpassed what hitters have on their side either.
It still is difficult to compare the ages when comparing talent, almost like comparing NFL quarterbacks then and now. The games have changed a lot more than most people realize.

Very good points.

I remember watching a show and it was about manufacturing baseball bats. If I recall correctly they are now computer assisted and custom made to an individual player specifications or needs. Think it was on ESPN but not sure.

[Robert Fischer]

McGwire? ummm, no.

why not McGwire, because he was caught with steroids,or statistically?

[Valuist]

why not McGwire, because he was caught with steroids,or statistically?

He was a specialist and he cheated to become a specialist at the one thing he did well. He didn't hit for a high average, steal bases, or field his position especially well. He hit home runs. With the aid of steroids. But that was all he did. There are many players who were better than McGwire.

[cj]

why not McGwire, because he was caught with steroids,or statistically?

A lot of reasons. He was what, a 260 hitter? Without steroids, he probably bats 250 max for his career. He struck out a bunch. He was no all time great.

I'd take Rod Carew over a Mark McGwire type any day of the week.

[Casino]

A lot of reasons. He was what, a 260 hitter? Without steroids, he probably bats 250 max for his career. He struck out a bunch. He was no all time great.

I'd take Rod Carew over a Mark McGwire type any day of the week.

I would take 3 ahead Big mac,

Mattingly,hernandez/murray.

[Marshall Bennett]

McGwire was a souped up Dave Kingman, and I'm not sure that Kingman still didn't hit the ball harder. I damn well know he hit it higher.

[cj]

McGwire was a souped up Dave Kingman, and I'm not sure that Kingman still didn't hit the ball harder. I damn well know he hit it higher.

He just didn't hit it very often.

[Canarsie]

He just didn't hit it very often.

He was a hell of a bunter though probably better than 90% playing today its a lost art.

Boy did he swing and miss a lot.

[PhantomOnTour]

Rob Deer is the closest thing I've seen to Kingman...homeruns and strikeouts

[cj's dad]

Rob Deer is the closest thing I've seen to Kingman...homeruns and strikeouts

I nominate Mark Reynolds - 37 HR - 198 K's in 537 AB's - 36%

[Casino]

I nominate Mark Reynolds - 37 HR - 198 K's in 537 AB's - 36%
my nomination,Pete incagvilia.God awful

[lsbets]

He just didn't hit it very often.

As a kid I used to play All Star Baseball non stop. Dave Kingman's disk had the biggest strikeout range of anyone by far.

[Canarsie]

my nomination,Pete incagvilia.God awful

Wow that is a good one would have forgotten about him.

[Valuist]

I know its still early in the season....70 plate appearances for Pujols but are Angels fans starting to get a little concerned that maybe they didn't get the player they thought they paid all that money for?

70 plate appearances. 0 homers....4 RBI .246 BA and .654 OPS.

[cj]

He started pretty slow last year and everyone blamed it on his contract status. After peaking in 2008 at .357, he has dropped every year since, .327, .312, .299. That isn't a good sign at his age, and isn't his age a question mark anyway to some?

I guess part of it could be changing leagues, but I don't follow like I did in years past (The O's have sucked so long!) so I'm not sure that is still considered a big factor.

[melman]

cj--I think some of the reason for the decline in batting avg for Albert is that more and more big league managers have become "little Tony LaRussa's" . They tell there pitchers "don't let him beat you". Don't throw him strikes. I'm sure that A-Rod over the last few years is also seeing less fastballs and less strikes. Have you seen the modern defensive game? For lefthanded hitters they have the third baseman playing in short right field. "Spray Charts" are the in thing. TB's manager Maddon has his infield all over the place.

[anotherCAfan]

I know its still early in the season....70 plate appearances for Pujols but are Angels fans starting to get a little concerned that maybe they didn't get the player they thought they paid all that money for?

70 plate appearances. 0 homers....4 RBI .246 BA and .654 OPS.
If he can draw walks, get hits, or allow other to steal bases while he is at bat, then I am content for now.

I am more worried about the pitching shoring up. Texas already has clinched the division :(

[melman]

cj---BTW my man Jamie Moyer is going tonight. Mr slopball. I say that with great affection. His fastball last week topped out at 78. Couple of pitches at 60. And yet his ERA after three starts is 2.55. Silly and ------wonderful.

[cj's dad]

cj---BTW my man Jamie Moyer is going tonight. Mr slopball. I say that with great affection. His fastball last week topped out at 78. Couple of pitches at 60. And yet his ERA after three starts is 2.55. Silly and ------wonderful.

49 years old - incredible.

[melman]

cj's dad---Moyer goes six tonight and gives up one run. They pull him to put in a flame thrower. Who promptly gives up two runs. :)

[Valuist]

cj--I think some of the reason for the decline in batting avg for Albert is that more and more big league managers have become "little Tony LaRussa's" . They tell there pitchers "don't let him beat you". Don't throw him strikes. I'm sure that A-Rod over the last few years is also seeing less fastballs and less strikes. Have you seen the modern defensive game? For lefthanded hitters they have the third baseman playing in short right field. "Spray Charts" are the in thing. TB's manager Maddon has his infield all over the place.

That sounds good until you see his walk numbers have been in decline: 115 in 2009, 103 in 2010, and 61 in 2011. HR, RBI, BA, SP, OBP, OPS have all declined the last couple years. Even if he rebounds and has a few more great years, I think the Angels will hate this contract 5 years from now.

[cj]

Have you seen the modern defensive game? For lefthanded hitters they have the third baseman playing in short right field. "Spray Charts" are the in thing. TB's manager Maddon has his infield all over the place.

I have, and my thoughts are a truly great hitter would tear that apart. Could you imagine someone putting shift onto a guy like Rod Carew or Wade Boggs?

[ElKabong]

If he can draw walks, get hits, or allow other to steal bases while he is at bat, then I am content for now.

I am more worried about the pitching shoring up. Texas already has clinched the division :(

as much as I'd like to agree with you, being the R's fan that i am, it's only April. Long long ways to go.

Some opinions....
Pujols isn't what he used to be, never will be. Still good, but not worth the $$ paid, just like A-rod was, only A-rod was in his prime when he signed....saw this stat on the Newburg site, Pujols rate of swinging at pitches out of the strike zone has gone up the past few yrs, walk ratio hasn't kept that pace

I'm concerned about how many pitches our starters are throwing....takes a toll...and it gets damn hot here, pitchers tend to wear out...don't rule out the possibility of a slide in Aug-Sept for our staff (even tho we have the best pitching coach in baseball- mike maddux

CJ Wwilson was a great pick up for you guys...he was the club douche, yes, but he's not a "bad guy". Never in trouble with the law or anything...just a personality that grades on normal people...but damn the guy can pitch....look at it this way>> he was our ace last season....now he's your 4th starter. That alone tells me the Halos aren't done, if the Pen can hold leads

Right now the Rangers are rolling, but it won't be this way for 162 games.... But for tonite, CJ lost a close decision (3-2), we beat the Yankees again & took the series even tho we started our # 2,4,6 starters (the dutch oven, yu, feldman)...anytime we beat the yanks it's a good day :cool:

seriously, i expect sept to be very interesting in the AL west...it ain't over

[anotherCAfan]

as much as I'd like to agree with you, being the R's fan that i am, it's only April. Long long ways to go.

Some opinions....
Pujols isn't what he used to be, never will be. Still good, but not worth the $$ paid, just like A-rod was, only A-rod was in his prime when he signed....saw this stat on the Newburg site, Pujols rate of swinging at pitches out of the strike zone has gone up the past few yrs, walk ratio hasn't kept that pace

I'm concerned about how many pitches our starters are throwing....takes a toll...and it gets damn hot here, pitchers tend to wear out...don't rule out the possibility of a slide in Aug-Sept for our staff (even tho we have the best pitching coach in baseball- mike maddux

CJ Wwilson was a great pick up for you guys...he was the club douche, yes, but he's not a "bad guy". Never in trouble with the law or anything...just a personality that grades on normal people...but damn the guy can pitch....look at it this way>> he was our ace last season....now he's your 4th starter. That alone tells me the Halos aren't done, if the Pen can hold leads

Right now the Rangers are rolling, but it won't be this way for 162 games.... But for tonite, CJ lost a close decision (3-2), we beat the Yankees again & took the series even tho we started our # 2,4,6 starters (the dutch oven, yu, feldman)...anytime we beat the yanks it's a good day :cool:

seriously, i expect sept to be very interesting in the AL west...it ain't over
You guys have won every series you've had this year! Darvish had a great stat line against NYY. I just hope the Angels can get the new second wild card.

Wilson has done well; same with Haren and Weaver. The hitting coach needs to go--something needs to be done. Very frustrating to watch the Angels.

[Valuist]

So Pujols hits his first home run on May 7th. According to ESPN, he's on pace for 6 homers and 39 RBIs.