BlackJack hand gone wrong. What should the ruling be?

[Zippy Chippy]

Wondering if anyone ever had any type of controversy at a casino like this.

Mohegan Sun. 5 of us playing BJ. I am in the last seat. I get a 7 and a 4. The dealer shows a 10. Now for those of you that don't know when the dealer gets a 10 or an ACE they have a little thing they put the corner of the cards in. If the light turns green they do not have blackjack, if its red they DO have blackjack. (that is how they do it at mohegan sun at other places its a mirror where the dealer can see).. He puts the corners of the card in and it turns red. He has blackjack. He flips the undercard up and its another facecard! The machine malfunctioned. He actually only had 20. This is where it gets interesting. They let us play the hand out.

The 1st 2 guys also have 20 and stay, the 3rd guy has 15, hits and busts. Then it gets to the 4th guy. He has 19. The dealer says, "you might as well hit".. At this point i verbally say, "If he takes my face card im gonna lose my mind". So obviously you know the rest of the story. He takes my face card, i proceed to end up busting. What should the appropriate action be? I get a refund, I win the hand? I lose the hand?

Surprisingly no one at the table was on my side on this which made it more frustrating. After a long arguement with the Pit Boss I was awarded my bet back as if it was a push.

[Mike at A+]

Joe Pesci would have shot the dealer.

[PaceAdvantage]

I say you lost fair and square. You and the rest of the table had the ultimate advantage of knowing exactly what you had to beat because you knew the dealer's hand. I don't see how anyone at the table could complain.

Be grateful you were able to sway that pit boss. I wouldn't have been nearly as accommodating... :lol:

And for the record, I always detest players who chide other players for taking cards they "shouldn't," somehow claiming they took "their" card.

[DJofSD]

Wondering if anyone ever had any type of controversy at a casino like this.

Mohegan Sun. 5 of us playing BJ. I am in the last seat. I get a 7 and a 4. The dealer shows a 10. Now for those of you that don't know when the dealer gets a 10 or an ACE they have a little thing they put the corner of the cards in. If the light turns green they do not have blackjack, if its red they DO have blackjack. (that is how they do it at mohegan sun at other places its a mirror where the dealer can see).. He puts the corners of the card in and it turns red. He has blackjack. He flips the undercard up and its another facecard! The machine malfunctioned. He actually only had 20. This is where it gets interesting. They let us play the hand out.

The 1st 2 guys also have 20 and stay, the 3rd guy has 15, hits and busts. Then it gets to the 4th guy. He has 19. The dealer says, "you might as well hit".. At this point i verbally say, "If he takes my face card im gonna lose my mind". So obviously you know the rest of the story. He takes my face card, i proceed to end up busting. What should the appropriate action be? I get a refund, I win the hand? I lose the hand?

Surprisingly no one at the table was on my side on this which made it more frustrating. After a long arguement with the Pit Boss I was awarded my bet back as if it was a push.
Was insurance offered?

[BlueShoe]

Have never been in this situation, so cannot comment from experience, but the logical decision would have been for the Floorman to declare "no action" and call the round dead and void before any additional cards were dealt out. All cards should have gone into the discards, no money exchanged, and a new round dealt. If a reader malfunction was suspected, any subsequent hands with an ace or ten value card as the dealer upcard should have been checked manually, the old fashioned way, with the dealer peeking at his downcard. Have to wonder if the dealer having a very powerful pat 20 had anything to do with playing the hand out. Would have gotten quite interesting if instead of a 10 in the hole he had a 4, 5, or 6.

[Dave Schwartz]

Zippy, I feel your pain, having (many years ago) experienced precisely the same play.

Instead of answering the question, permit me to pose a question to you instead:

What if it had been you in the other seat with a "19" against the dealer's "20?" Imagine you have a $500 wager that you now know is a loser? Are you going to hit? Of course you are!

The way I see this play, you, and everyone else at the table got a special bonus on this hand: you got to see the dealer's hole card before having to make ANY decision. You need to be grateful for that and accept the fact that you save yourself from doubling down.

(You didn't double down, did you?)

[Zippy Chippy]

Was insurance offered?

Yes.

[MadWorld]

The 1st 2 guys also have 20 and stay, the 3rd guy has 15, hits and busts. Then it gets to the 4th guy. He has 19. The dealer says, "you might as well hit".. At this point i verbally say, "If he takes my face card im gonna lose my mind". So obviously you know the rest of the story.

What should have happened if he got a two and you got a face card then? Would you have returned the money because you would have likely busted?

Really, you need to complain immediately when the error occurred or play the hand as is.

[GameTheory]

I don't see the basis of your argument -- you played the hand out and you lost. If when the machine malfunctioned and he flipped over the undercard had you immediately demanded the hand to be "no action" and they *forced* you to play it out that would be different. But you knew the situation had changed and went ahead -- if the next card following had also been a face card and you won, you would have taken the money, right?

[Zippy Chippy]

Zippy, I feel your pain, having (many years ago) experienced precisely the same play.

Instead of answering the question, permit me to pose a question to you instead:

What if it had been you in the other seat with a "19" against the dealer's "20?" Imagine you have a $500 wager that you now know is a loser? Are you going to hit? Of course you are!

The way I see this play, you, and everyone else at the table got a special bonus on this hand: you got to see the dealer's hole card before having to make ANY decision. You need to be grateful for that and accept the fact that you save yourself from doubling down.

(You didn't double down, did you?)

I have no problem with him hitting, or even the dealer telling him to hit. He had to do it. I had a problem that the broken equipment cost me the money

[bigmack]

Yes.
That would be the first time insurance was offered on a 10 dealer show card in the history of the game.

[GameTheory]

I have no problem with him hitting, or even the dealer telling him to hit. He had to do it. I had a problem that the broken equipment cost me the moneyIf you were willing to win the hand in that situation, you had to be willing to lose it as well. Presumably you could have opted-out and it wouldn't have cost you anything.

[BlueShoe]

(You didn't double down, did you?)
Assuming the problem never occurred, doubling down with a hard 11 against a dealer upcard 10 would have been the correct strategy.

[Zippy Chippy]

That would be the first time insurance was offered on a 10 dealer show card in the history of the game.

LOL. No. Was just meaning it was played the same as any other hand.

[NJ Stinks]

I think the Mohegan Sun handled the situation as well as they could. Cancelling the hand immediately would not have been fair to anyone dealt Backjack. (I realize Zippy did not say anyone was dealt Blackjack in this case.)

Still, in the end, Zippy really did get screwed by the casino's equipment. Giving Zippy his bet back was a sound business decision. Goodwill is still an intangible asset last time I checked.

[thaskalos]

Zippy...just be thankful that this didn't happen at a race track...

You would have NEVER gotten your money back.

I still remember a race I played many years ago at Hawthorne. I had placed a large bet on the #1 horse, who happened to be the only speed in the race.

As the horses were entering the starting gate...the gentleman responsible for opening the gate made the unbelievable mistake of starting the race before the #12 horse had entered the gate.

As you can imagine, all the horses broke in a tangle - since the jockeys were not ready for the start - and my "speed" horse got the worst break of all.

The winner, as I recall, paid something like $50 to win.

I waited anxiously to see what the track's decision on the race would be.

And then it came:

The #12 horse would be declared a non-starter...and the rest of the race would be declared official as it stood.

I was shocked!

I sought out one of the managers and told him about the unfairness of their decision...and how the bungled start had severely compromised the efforts of most of the horses...especially my speed horse.

The manager looked at me as if I had lost my mind.

When I suggested that I was entitled to a refund...he snidely remarked.

"What's the big deal pal? You would just lose that money in the next race anyway"...

Ahhh...the majesty of the game...:)

My apologies for highjacking the thread...and my opinion to your question is that the casino management tried to give every advantage they could to the patron by letting the hand be played out, and they should be commended.

Returning your losing bet to you was a bonus...as far as I am concerned.

[Striker]

The hand should of been dead as soon as dealer flipped the hole card over and called the pit boss over for a ruling. The only other thing that I could imagine would happen would be them to give you the option to take your bet back and then go on to the next hand or to play the hand out with your current bet and if you lose the hand you lose your money. What you are saying the casino did I have never heard/seen of before, but then again they are the 1st casino that I have heard(from this thread) about offering insurance on a 10 or face card showing. If you were that guy that had 15 you would have done the same thing that he did and hit, he had to, or he was already guaranteed to be a loser. What would have happened if a non-face card was turned over and then your face card or a 10 came? You would have been happy he did it. IMO you were very lucky to get your money back.

[Bettowin]

I agree it was unfortunate for the OP how it played out but it was done fairly and there should be no beef against the 19 who took a hit nor the casino for playing it as played.

I had this happen to me this spring in Vegas:

Playing single deck with one other player and he was at third base. Both cards dealt down and I get two queens with a rather healthy bet out and the guy to my left has two cards equalling 10. We had been playing for a long long time and the dealer wasn't very interested in what was going on at our table. As I slide my cards under my chips the dealer thinks I scratched them on the table wanting a hit. He hits me with an Ace but as the card is coming out I say no I don't want a hit. The guy next to me starts complaining and the floor guy comes over and rules my three cards dead and the guy to my left gets a new card. We both weren't happy at all as you can imagine and my arguement was that nobody would take a hit on twenty so logic should be that the ace goes to the other guy but never did I think they would declare my hand dead.

Needless to say I was pissed. The floorman offered my some free decks of cards as a peace offering. That pissed me off even more:)

[Dave Schwartz]

Assuming the problem never occurred, doubling down with a hard 11 against a dealer upcard 10 would have been the correct strategy.

But only with a VERY high count against a 20.

[Zippy Chippy]

But only with a VERY high count against a 20.

I double all 11s although I didn't when I saw that he had 20.

[Dave Schwartz]

In order to justify that play there would have to be far more than a 50-50 split in 10's-non-10's.

I'd bet most people would believe that (say) if 11 of 20 remaining cards were 10-counts it was automatically the correct play.

[Dave Schwartz]

The hand should of been dead as soon as dealer flipped the hole card over and called the pit boss over for a ruling.

I can tell you that with my MANY years of Nevada dealing/floorman experience that WOULD NOT have been considered a dead hand.

Dealers expose hole cards all the time. The game goes on.

Try it this way - suppose you had made a huge bet. Say, $2,000 and were dealt a 20. How would you like it if the dealer's 8 popped out from under that 10 and the pit boss ran over and said, "Sorry - dead hand. Your 20 doesn't count."

Nope. Does not work that way.

With rare exception, once everyone's cards are distributed and the dealer's upcard visible, the hand is played whenever possible.



Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Rookies]

The correct call is to call the hand dead.

However, if you agree to go on, an alternate strategy for THAT situaution is to offer to pay for the 15 hand, so you can take the next card- especially if that is a small wager and yours is much larger.

I've done that.

Given that you played the hand, I agree with others that you were very fortunate to get paid post facto. Shouldn't have.

[bigmack]

I've run into similar situations dozens of times. Many of those times the pit boss would offer a choice to each player of playing their hand or punching out.

[BlueShoe]

But only with a VERY high count against a 20.
Of course not doubling against a 20, was assuming a normal game in which after checking, the dealer did not have BJ, and the game proceding normally. Correct basic strategy is to double hard 11 against a 10. If you are card counting and the deck is minus, this may not be correct, and the best strategy might be to hit, not double. Depends on how minus, number of decks, rules, etc.

[Dave Schwartz]

Blueshoe,

You have missed the point, I believe.

Of course, it was a trick question.

You have 11. Dealer has 20. There are 20 cards left, 11 pictures and 9 non-pictures.

You are going to win 55% of the time if you double. Obviously, doubling down shows a significant profit.

The trick is to understand why, despite the "significant profit," it is not the correct play. (There is a point at which the "correct play" IS to double down, although in this example we do not have enough information to know what that point is.)


Dave

[chickenhead]

I have had them pay winners and push losers on broken hands. Depends on how big the table stakes are -- but the casinos do have ways to make everyone happy, if they so wish. A free roll is pretty tough to be too upset about.

[Striker]

I can tell you that with my MANY years of Nevada dealing/floorman experience that WOULD NOT have been considered a dead hand.

Dealers expose hole cards all the time. The game goes on.

Try it this way - suppose you had made a huge bet. Say, $2,000 and were dealt a 20. How would you like it if the dealer's 8 popped out from under that 10 and the pit boss ran over and said, "Sorry - dead hand. Your 20 doesn't count."

Nope. Does not work that way.

With rare exception, once everyone's cards are distributed and the dealer's upcard visible, the hand is played whenever possible.



Regards,
Dave Schwartz
Correct Dave with your logic here BUT there is no way a pit boss comes over and says okay just play the hand out when the dealer flips his hole card up accidentally or in other fashion AND that is the only choice the players have here. Nobody would play at a casino with the rules like that. Which is why I also said there is usually an option of taking your bet back or playing the hand out with your option so if you had that large bet out there you could play your 20 against that 18. I would be very surprised if any casino/pit boss that saw a person had a $2000 bet out and then gave that player the option to continue with his/her 20 against an 18 but that is just my opinion and experience.

[maddog42]

I say you lost fair and square. You and the rest of the table had the ultimate advantage of knowing exactly what you had to beat because you knew the dealer's hand. I don't see how anyone at the table could complain.

Be grateful you were able to sway that pit boss. I wouldn't have been nearly as accommodating... :lol:

And for the record, I always detest players who chide other players for taking cards they "shouldn't," somehow claiming they took "their" card.

PA you are absolutely right. That 10 wasn't zippy's card. During my card counting days I saw all sorts of crap. Crazy people hitting 17 against a dealer's 6. I have had dealers tell me that hitting 16 versus a 10 was a bad play. Dealers telling me that insurance was always a good thing with a 21.
Zippy that players 10 wasn't "your" 10. Your card was the card that was dealt to you. It will all even out in the long haul. You got more than a fair shake, all things considered.

[TJDave]

However, if you agree to go on, an alternate strategy for THAT situaution is to offer to pay for the 15 hand, so you can take the next card- especially if that is a small wager and yours is much larger.


I've been called on that. Not for offering to buy but to sell a draw to an obnoxious player sitting on third base.

Somehow, I don't see a casino liking that much.

[onefast99]

Correct Dave with your logic here BUT there is no way a pit boss comes over and says okay just play the hand out when the dealer flips his hole card up accidentally or in other fashion AND that is the only choice the players have here. Nobody would play at a casino with the rules like that. Which is why I also said there is usually an option of taking your bet back or playing the hand out with your option so if you had that large bet out there you could play your 20 against that 18. I would be very surprised if any casino/pit boss that saw a person had a $2000 bet out and then gave that player the option to continue with his/her 20 against an 18 but that is just my opinion and experience.
Once the dealer noted a malfunction he would summon the pit boss to approve a dead hand. No continued play. If there was a large bet on the table that person(s)would be given a casino voucher for the error. To continue play and tell the people who have 19 you better hit is absolutely a bush league move by the dealer and pit boss. Zippy you did the right thing getting your bet back!

[Dave Schwartz]

Once the dealer noted a malfunction he would summon the pit boss to approve a dead hand. No continued play. If there was a large bet on the table that person(s)would be given a casino voucher for the error. To continue play and tell the people who have 19 you better hit is absolutely a bush league move by the dealer and pit boss. Zippy you did the right thing getting your bet back!

If this is true then the game has changed drastically since I last worked inside a casino pit (1989).

I can tell you that, as described, this hand would NEVER have been declared dead in MY era.

[MadWorld]

To continue play and tell the people who have 19 you better hit is absolutely a bush league move by the dealer and pit boss. Zippy you did the right thing getting your bet back!

I don't see how this is bush league. Every player had an advantage now that they wouldn't have had before.

[DJofSD]

Perhaps I am wrong but there seems to be a minor thread as a part of the discussion which I believe is in error. Players at the BJ table are playing against the house and not each other.

[onefast99]

If this is true then the game has changed drastically since I last worked inside a casino pit (1989).

I can tell you that, as described, this hand would NEVER have been declared dead in MY era.
Here is a question for you, if 6 of the 7 players took insurance and the light went on for the hole card showing it was blackjack and it wasn't would you have paid those who took the insurance?

[onefast99]

I don't see how this is bush league. Every player had an advantage now that they wouldn't have had before.
The odds of beating a 20 were in favor of the house plain and simple, just ask the guys with 20, they pushed and the guy with 15 busted so did the guy with a 19. Any pit boss that would approve continuance of that hand would be looking at a review!

[Dave Schwartz]

Insurance is paid WHEN the dealer has a BJ. Not because a light goes on.

If the dealer has a BJ (or "snapper" as they were known in the vernacular of old), he turns over the hole card. If it isn't really a 10 then the hand plays on but everyone gets to see what he had.

[onefast99]

Insurance is paid WHEN the dealer has a BJ. Not because a light goes on.

If the dealer has a BJ (or "snapper" as they were known in the vernacular of old), he turns over the hole card. If it isn't really a 10 then the hand plays on but everyone gets to see what he had.
That is correct, but you failed to mention the light malfuntioned and the dealer surrendered his hand thus ending play. That came from the pit boss at the Tropicana about 25 minutes ago. He told me that the hand is considered dead with no continuance and no need for a dealer to make himself look like an idiot by telling someone you have a 19 I have a 20 you have to hit. The casinos are in the business of keeping their clintele not making them feel bad.

[Dave Schwartz]

As I said, the game has changed.

So, the dealer "surrendered" his hand and did not show the card underneath?

Does everyone get paid?

[onefast99]

As I said, the game has changed.

So, the dealer "surrendered" his hand and did not show the card underneath?

Does everyone get paid?
No everyone doesn't get paid. The pit boss will confirm a "non-continuance" it is a dead hand. It is that simple, in zippies case the dealer and the pit boss made it more complicated and pissed off a lot of people.

[MadWorld]

The odds of beating a 20 were in favor of the house plain and simple, just ask the guys with 20, they pushed and the guy with 15 busted so did the guy with a 19. Any pit boss that would approve continuance of that hand would be looking at a review!

But the dealer had 20 regardless of whether the card was turned over early or not. If the rules are different for if the dealer has a 15 vs. a 20 then it is bush league.

However, you can't play out a hand with a chance to win and only complain after you lose.

[onefast99]

But the dealer had 20 regardless of whether the card was turned over early or not. If the rules are different for if the dealer has a 15 vs. a 20 then it is bush league.

However, you can't play out a hand with a chance to win and only complain after you lose.
The hand is officially dead after the dealer shows his hole card, no more cards may be drawn. How difficult of a rule is that to follow? I guess zippy found out the hard way his casino deals after the dealer turns up his face card!