Raiders and Palmer

[Valuist]

A 2012 number one PLUS a conditional number one or two? Way too high a price to pay for a guy who already has his best seasons behind him. Granted Boller wasn't the answer but too high a price to pay. Apparently Garrard turned them down to have surgery.

[Robert Goren]

They think they have better team than most fans(me included)do. They think Palmer gives them a good shot at the Super Bowl. If they are right, then it is good deal. One thing is for sure, it was a great deal for the Bengals assuming they don't screw up the draft picks.

[JustRalph]

Carson Palmer is a good quarterback. There are very few of those left in the NFL. It gets worse every year. Give him time to learn the playbook and this team will be upgraded...........

[Turfway Ed]

Good trade for the Bengals, but whether they get one or two #1 draft picks, there's a very good chance that they won't be signed.

Mike Brown does not like to spend any money. It wouldn't surprise me if they held out/ or in turn were traded.

[cj's dad]

A 2012 number one PLUS a conditional number one or two? Way too high a price to pay for a guy who already has his best seasons behind him. Granted Boller wasn't the answer but too high a price to pay. Apparently Garrard turned them down to have surgery.

I watched Kyle Boller for 5 years; from 2003-2007. He was the starter in 2003-04-05-07. He started 42 of 48 games in that span. Believe me when I say that he was behind a mediocre offensive line. He was sacked 99 times in the 4 years as a starter. He threw 40 TD's and had 42 Ints.

If Oakland gives him time to throw he is more than adequate.

[Valuist]

I watched Kyle Boller for 5 years; from 2003-2007. He was the starter in 2003-04-05-07. He started 42 of 48 games in that span. Believe me when I say that he was behind a mediocre offensive line. He was sacked 99 times in the 4 years as a starter. He threw 40 TD's and had 42 Ints.

If Oakland gives him time to throw he is more than adequate.

IF it is true that it was more a matter of the offensive line, there is the issue of rust. 2007 was a long time ago. If Tom Brady had a four year interruption in his career, I wonder how good he would be. And no one will ever confuse Boller with Brady.

As for Ralph's post, Palmer ONCE WAS a top 5 QB in the league but those days are in the distant past. Since the injury in the playoff game against Pittsburgh, he hasn't been the same player. He looked very ineffective the past few years. At this point in time I do NOT consider him an upgrade over Jason Campbell.

[Robert Fischer]

it looks like just the 1 1st Round Pick to me.

The Raiders had a high demand, because of team image as well as on-field issues.

Palmer should probably be able to maintain the level of Campbell.
Look for Pryor to be a "slash" guy in multiple positions.

[Rapid Grey]

IF it is true that it was more a matter of the offensive line, there is the issue of rust. 2007 was a long time ago. If Tom Brady had a four year interruption in his career, I wonder how good he would be. And no one will ever confuse Boller with Brady.

As for Ralph's post, Palmer ONCE WAS a top 5 QB in the league but those days are in the distant past. Since the injury in the playoff game against Pittsburgh, he hasn't been the same player. He looked very ineffective the past few years. At this point in time I do NOT consider him an upgrade over Jason Campbell.

The Bengals brought in free agents Lavernious Coles in 2009 and Terrell Owens in 2010 to help build the offense for Palmer. Neither are no longer in the league. Chad Ochocinco was the other primary receiver those two years, this year he's in New England and has exactly 9 catches in 6 games with no touchdowns. Kinda gives you perspective to what Palmer was working with.

[Valuist]

The Bengals brought in free agents Lavernious Coles in 2009 and Terrell Owens in 2010 to help build the offense for Palmer. Neither are no longer in the league. Chad Ochocinco was the other primary receiver those two years, this year he's in New England and has exactly 9 catches in 6 games with no touchdowns. Kinda gives you perspective to what Palmer was working with.

Owens would be in the league if he didn't hurt his knee. He was fairly productive with the Bengals. I agree Ochocinqo is finished now but he had some decent years with Cincy.

One gets old in the NFL quickly.

[rastajenk]

Good trade for the Bengals, but whether they get one or two #1 draft picks, there's a very good chance that they won't be signed.

Mike Brown does not like to spend any money. It wouldn't surprise me if they held out/ or in turn were traded.I think the new agreement took care of huge rookie salaries, so I don't see this as a problem. It was once upon a time, for sure.

One of Palmer's biggest problems was the play-calling, and the lack of respect he got from his offensive co-ordinator, now gone and replaced by a Gruden. The Bengies beat the Bills this year when Dalton ran a QB draw from the eight-yard line to tie the game late. That would never have been called for Palmer. The roll-outs Dalton gets to use to buy time weren't part of the Palmer playbook. And all the sideshow crap is gone, too.

I'm glad for the regime change in Bengal-land, and I'm happy Mr. Brown got something of value for Palmer. I always liked Palmer and wish him well. The trade gets :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: from this observer.

[Rookies]

The Raiders got fleeced and the Bengals got something fabulous for nada. That being said, the Raiders believe they are a Playoff team and they were going in the toilet without a QB of Palmer's calibre.

If it doesn't workout, they're screwed, but THAT has been the Raider loser way for a generation.

[slew101]

Problem with the deal for Oakland is they are unlikely to even make the playoffs. They are maybe a 9-win team, 10 if things go really well. SD, unlike other years, is off to good start for once and are likely to win that division.

That leaves Oakland battling for a wildcard spot with some tough teams. Possible, but going to be tough.

Bigger issue right now is the head coach running the organization. Not a good idea. Jackson thinks he's John Madden because he's 4-2. He doesn't care what he's giving up. Raiders now have no picks until Round 5 next year. They better get a GM real quick.

The Raiders got fleeced and the Bengals got something fabulous for nada. That being said, the Raiders believe they are a Playoff team and they were going in the toilet without a QB of Palmer's calibre.

If it doesn't workout, they're screwed, but THAT has been the Raider loser way for a generation.

[cj]

In the NFL, you can't blame a team for trying. They had very few other options, so of course they were going to overpay.

Draft picks guarantee you nothing. The Bengals rarely get the best of anyone in a deal, so we'll see if they are getting smarter. Odds are they will just make another bad draft pick.

[Valuist]

it looks like just the 1 1st Round Pick to me.

The Raiders had a high demand, because of team image as well as on-field issues.

Palmer should probably be able to maintain the level of Campbell.
Look for Pryor to be a "slash" guy in multiple positions.

Its a 2012 first rounder and a 2013 2nd rounder, which could become a first rounder.

[Valuist]

In the NFL, you can't blame a team for trying. They had very few other options, so of course they were going to overpay.

Draft picks guarantee you nothing. The Bengals rarely get the best of anyone in a deal, so we'll see if they are getting smarter. Odds are they will just make another bad draft pick.

Free agency doesn't guarantee anything either. Look at those Redskin teams that signed a ton of free agents. Look at Philly this year. Look at the Herschel Walker trade to the Vikings and the Ricky Williams for 7 picks trade. Those teams didn't recover for years. The best organizations use the draft to build their team. Whether or not the Bengals mess up the draft is another matter. They've got a young nucleus now and with the two division kingpins getting up in age, unless they f-k up the draft the next two years, they should be contenders going forward.

[Canarsie]

Free agency doesn't guarantee anything either. Look at those Redskin teams that signed a ton of free agents. Look at Philly this year. Look at the Herschel Walker trade to the Vikings and the Ricky Williams for 7 picks trade. Those teams didn't recover for years. The best organizations use the draft to build their team. Whether or not the Bengals mess up the draft is another matter. They've got a young nucleus now and with the two division kingpins getting up in age, unless they f-k up the draft the next two years, they should be contenders going forward.

The problems with the Bengals is fairly simple his name is Mike Brown. While I applaud his stand against Palmer holding out it's about the only smart thing he has done.

Draft picks will be making less money according to the recent labor contract. The question remain will he pay his upper tier talent fair market value. There is also a floor now so he just can't put it into his pocket only time will tell if he gets it.

He is the last to spend money on this there's a reason they almost never make the playoffs.

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2011/10/17/2496566/bengals-will-practice-in-ucs-indoor-facility-this-season

[cj]

The problems with the Bengals is fairly simple his name is Mike Brown. While I applaud his stand against Palmer holding out it's about the only smart thing he has done.


I'm curious, do you blame Palmer for holding out? I used to hate Elway for screwing the Colts, but as I learned more it is hard to blame him for not wanting to play for Irsay. In a similar light, it is hard to blame Palmer.

[Canarsie]

I'm curious, do you blame Palmer for holding out? I used to hate Elway for screwing the Colts, but as I learned more it is hard to blame him for not wanting to play for Irsay. In a similar light, it is hard to blame Palmer.

Funny you should ask that you might be surprised by my replies.

The answer is no I respect both of them for not wavering their position. I know you could say Brown backed off his but he got a hefty return for someone who wasn't even going to play on his team. He didn't initiate trade talk the Raiders came calling after an injury. He surely was in the drivers seat and never showed his hand.

I really ADMIRE Carson Palmer not just for his stance but because there never was a peep out of him since training camp that I can recall. He stuck to his guns, never cried, or did anything to bring publicity to himself. The only thing he did was hire an ex QB to stay in shape probably along with a personal trainer.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/09/08/carson-palmer-is-working-out/

I can't stand Mike Brown but he is the boss. Surely many of us have had bosses we didn't care for or worse. The only option "we" would have is to quit provided a contract wasn't signed or suck it up.


To me both Elway and Manning were different they were coming out of the draft. I don't feel like an unproven (at that exact time of demand) rookie should be saying "I'm not playing for your team so don't draft me". That sets a bad precedent, serve your time and become a free agent.

I'll fire one back at you. Would you think it's right if the Thunder had the first pick and the player said "I'm not going to play in a small market trade me". Nobody even had the guts to say that to Donald Sterling could be wrong on that one. This last paragraph is for informational and entertainment purposes only.

[cj's dad]

He had additional ammo to use against the Baltimore Colts. He was also drafted by the Yankees as a 3rd baseman. His father Jack Elway was also his agent and understood the franchise was on a decline. The Colts were a train wreck at the time. Frank Kush was the head coach. The players HATED him. As much as I hated what Elway did to the team at the time, I do, in hindsight, understand why.

[Valuist]

He had additional ammo to use against the Baltimore Colts. He was also drafted by the Yankees as a 3rd baseman. His father Jack Elway was also his agent and understood the franchise was on a decline. The Colts were a train wreck at the time. Frank Kush was the head coach. The players HATED him. As much as I hated what Elway did to the team at the time, I do, in hindsight, understand why.

Eli Manning did the same thing a few years ago. I agree Elway's holdout certainly made more sense. Why would anyone demand to NOT play for San Diego? I'm a big fan of his older brother, but I thought the move made Eli look like a petulant baby.

[Canarsie]

He had additional ammo to use against the Baltimore Colts. He was also drafted by the Yankees as a 3rd baseman. His father Jack Elway was also his agent and understood the franchise was on a decline. The Colts were a train wreck at the time. Frank Kush was the head coach. The players HATED him. As much as I hated what Elway did to the team at the time, I do, in hindsight, understand why.

I remember it as if it was yesterday. The Yankee threat was a bluff most scouts (for whatever they know) thought he would never rise above AA ball. If I recall correctly (a feat for my age) Steinbrenner might have helped him out by getting the Yankees and him on the back page a few times.

If a college player doesn't want to play for a certain coach of franchise to start his career he or she can enter the business world. It even drives me crazy when college coaches leave to go to another team under contract. A player can't do that all they get is renewable scholarships. The NFL does it right with coaches no lateral moves.

It's not only Elway because Manning did it. If Elway didn't try it in the first place one could scratch his head where Manning would be playing today.

Maybe I'm off base but if the rule is there for the entire four years of your college career where did you get the "balls" to break it. Imagine if this was a yearly thing how out of control it would be. Lets also look at the Lions who had terrible management under Millen. Why wouldn't any decent player say "I WON'T PLAY for your team" if he knew that he could get away with it?.

[cj]

I'll fire one back at you. Would you think it's right if the Thunder had the first pick and the player said "I'm not going to play in a small market trade me". Nobody even had the guts to say that to Donald Sterling could be wrong on that one. This last paragraph is for informational and entertainment purposes only.

IF they want to say it fine, but I would still draft them. Let them play in Europe. Didn't Steve Francis do that? I really don't remember, but think he tried with the Grizzlies for some reason and did eventually get traded.

[Canarsie]

IF they want to say it fine, but I would still draft them. Let them play in Europe. Didn't Steve Francis do that? I really don't remember, but think he tried with the Grizzlies for some reason and did eventually get traded.

That's my position glad were on the same page. Any college player should be "thrilled" (maybe I'm overstating it) to play for a professional team. If they are successful after "X" number of years they can be a free agent.

So now I pose an interesting question for you. How many players on the Thunder enjoy playing for the team in your opinion. I usually find that many actually like a smaller market (Karl Malone for one) and get used to it. When players don't want to leave it speaks well of the city and the teams management.

Yet I'm funny in believing that players like Chris Henry have the right to hold out. He could be cut at the whim of the GM so what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[cj]

That's my position glad were on the same page. Any college player should be "thrilled" (maybe I'm overstating it) to play for a professional team. If they are successful after "X" number of years they can be a free agent.

So now I pose an interesting question for you. How many players on the Thunder enjoy playing for the team in your opinion. I usually find that many actually like a smaller market (Karl Malone for one) and get used to it. When players don't want to leave it speaks well of the city and the teams management.

Yet I'm funny in believing that players like Chris Henry have the right to hold out. He could be cut at the whim of the GM so what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

I think ALL of the Thunder players love playing here. They say it all the time, and I don't think it is lip service. Some of that of course has to do with having a championship contending team. They may not like it so much if they were the Cavs.

[Canarsie]

I think ALL of the Thunder players love playing here. They say it all the time, and I don't think it is lip service. Some of that of course has to do with having a championship contending team. They may not like it so much if they were the Cavs.

That's exactly why I always say a teams success starts with great management. The Cavs didn't have that and it cost them dearly.

[cj's dad]

The thing we will never know is had Elway been a Colt the team MAY not have left Baltimore after the 1983 season. There would have surely been an increase in interest as well as attendance .

[rastajenk]

And they might never have been bad enough to draft P Manning in '98.

[cj's dad]

And they might never have been bad enough to draft P Manning in '98.

For every action there's an = reaction.

[Canarsie]

And they might never have been bad enough to draft P Manning in '98.

Isn't 15 years a stretch?

Someone could say Elway would have won 2-3 Super Bowls with the Colts we'll never know that either.

[rastajenk]

Elway's Super wins were in 97 and 98, or something like that. I'm not claiming that it could have been the Colts winning Super Bowls then; just that they probably wouldn't have had the first draft pick unless they really really wanted it badly enough.

[Robert Fischer]

CARSON PALMER, Matt Leinhart(sp?) and then Reggie Bush(to a lesser extent but valid in context) were HEISMAN! winners 3 outta' 4 yrs for that football powerhouse where the coaching(PC) and team PROGRAM was at such a level that the skill position players' talents were exaggerated and protected.

Palmer was a little TOUGHER of the two QBs, mainly because of two things - he had(has, even) character, and he came first where the team had to work a little harder to "establish" itself.

He is at least serviceable. I would have rather seen THA RAIDAZ bring in URBAN MEYER. Let KYLE pro-BOLLER play out the year and bring in 3 more hybrid players to join TERRELLE PRYOR. Tebow would have been the obvious move, but the opportunity has passed. Salaries would be downgraded considering 3 guys and a backup would split the workhorse load @ QB and LONGTERM CONTRACTS would NOT be issued as these guys wouldn't last long with the amount of running they would be asked to do. Instead low-base pay favoring yards and total-snaps. QBs in this system wouldn't need to be quite as tall, and some of the black college, or major college running QBs could be considered that normally wouldn't be.

that would be interesting and just as realistic as this mediocre team being a real super bowl contender with Palmer and these guys.

Carson Palmer should at least be able to do about as well as Jason Campbell, and if all goes well- late in the season his reads will have surpassed Campbell. Palmer is not a season changer or a Lombardi Winner, and the Raideyz are just in the same boring boat as about 15 others who don't have an elite QB, and therefore aren't really much of a superbowl threat, regardless of current record and/hype.

[Zippy Chippy]

Palmer maybe be in sooner than you think! Boller 2 INTs immediately..

[duncan04]

Palmer and Boller with 3 picks each. :rolleyes: Oakland overpaid for Palmer and Bengal fans are glad he is gone.

[Valuist]

Palmer was rusty. We don't know if he's finished although he might be.

Boller finished? He never got started. He's a lifetime 70 QB rating player and it went down further yesterday.

[Valuist]

Palmer has bad blood toward Cincy? How ridiculous. He was the one who demanded a trade. Pathetic.