View Full Version : Frankel to BC Mile?
horses4courses
10-15-2011, 10:50 AM
Having just watched Frankel stay undefeated at Ascot, the BC Mile appears his for the taking if they decide to ship.
Goldi has lost a length, or two, imo....
Wasn't it already said he wouldn't be here this year, but maybe next?
horses4courses
10-15-2011, 10:57 AM
Wasn't it already said he wouldn't be here this year, but maybe next?
That was stated a couple of weeks back, alright.
However, the owners have hinted otherwise this week.
Maybe, just maybe, he will be shipped.
Grits
10-15-2011, 10:58 AM
By their racing manager, Grimm, this is being contemplated--coming for the BC. This race may just have helped their decision a bit, one way or another.
Edit: to add. This was stated this week, by Grimm.
Of course, I could be mistaken.
toussaud
10-15-2011, 11:00 AM
i had planned to go to Fayetville and watch the breeders cup on TV while tailgating but if Frankel is going to show i have to go to churchill, just have to. would kill to see him here in the states
KaiserSoze
10-15-2011, 11:09 AM
Excellent decision to keep him in training next year and let him develop rather than ship him off to stud as has been the norm with most 3yo ''champions'' of recent years
toussaud
10-15-2011, 11:09 AM
You know i thought he looked good but i'm watching First call and Jeff is saying he "made a mockery" of the field. I didn't see that at all. he had to work for it, at least I thought so.
nearco
10-15-2011, 11:16 AM
You know i thought he looked good but i'm watching First call and Jeff is saying he "made a mockery" of the field. I didn't see that at all. he had to work for it, at least I thought so.
He started to put them to the sword 2f furlong out. They were floundering to go with him. The last 50-100 yards he was opening on them under a hand ride.
He doesn't have to win every race like he did the 2000 Guineas.
horses4courses
10-15-2011, 11:16 AM
You know i thought he looked good but i'm watching First call and Jeff is saying he "made a mockery" of the field. I didn't see that at all. he had to work for it, at least I thought so.
He was in a race, I agree.
The horses he beat (Excelebration and Immortal Verse), though, are pretty good, and they couldn't live with him in the final furlong.
Exceptional horse is Frankel.......
classhandicapper
10-15-2011, 11:27 AM
If he comes to the Breeder's Cup, he might steal the show because of the showdown with Goldikova and all her success in the US.
horses4courses
10-15-2011, 11:30 AM
If he comes to the Breeder's Cup, he might steal the show because of the showdown with Goldikova and all her success in the US.
Agreed.
It would be built-up as quite a match race.
nearco
10-15-2011, 11:34 AM
He will never run in the BC Mile, or any mile going two turns on a 7f course.
If and when he comes to the US it will to run in the Classic.
classhandicapper
10-15-2011, 11:43 AM
He will never run in the BC Mile, or any mile going two turns on a 7f course.
If and when he comes to the US it will to run in the Classic.
OK, can I get a bet down against him now. I'd be willing to tear up my tickets if he proves he's that great on two surfaces and can also go long.
toussaud
10-15-2011, 11:45 AM
It has been proven time and time again that the euro milers (giants causeway, ravens pass, henrythenavigator) can easily get 10F in the US handicap race. In reality, It's my opinion that alot of top class handicap horses, really aren't "getting" 10F anymore.
nearco
10-15-2011, 11:47 AM
OK, can I get a bet down against him now. I'd be willing to tear up my tickets if he proves he's that great on two surfaces and can also go long.
He will go long, and will do so next year. Watch today's race, he was opening up on a stiff uphill finish.
Should be an exciting year watching him race next year.
classhandicapper
10-15-2011, 11:49 AM
It has been proven time and time again that the euro milers (giants causeway, ravens pass, henrythenavigator) can easily get 10F in the US handicap race. In reality, It's my opinion that alot of top class handicap horses, really aren't "getting" 10F anymore.
It's one thing to get it on the SA Pro Ride like Raven's Pass that was extremely friendly to all turfers, but I think it's tougher to make the transition to real dirt like Giants Causeway. I'd love to see it though. He would become legendary. I'm always comfortable ripping up tickets to see a legend. ;)
If he comes to the Breeder's Cup, he might steal the show because of the showdown with Goldikova and all her success in the US.
I'd be surprised if he shows up. And honestly, unless he didn't ship well, I don't think it would be much of a showdown anyway as he is lengths superior to Goldikova.
toussaud
10-15-2011, 11:51 AM
It's one thing to get it on the SA Pro Ride like Raven's Pass that was extremely friendly to all turfers, but I think it's tougher to make the transition to real dirt like Giants Causeway. I'd love to see it though. He would become legendary. I'm always comfortable ripping up tickets to see a legend. ;)
he actually reminds me of a (possibly more talented) version of giants causeway. same running style, same grit. Though giants causeway was really bred to take to dirt while frankel really isn't.
You know, i don't know. Giants Causeway was a gritty little sucker. If Giants Causeway could get the lead against Frankel and see Frankel i don't think frankel could beat him. Those Giants Causeway/Kalanisi matchups were pretty epic
OTM Al
10-15-2011, 12:01 PM
I'd be surprised if he shows up. And honestly, unless he didn't ship well, I don't think it would be much of a showdown anyway as he is lengths superior to Goldikova.
He is certainly on a wide open straight mile. He loses much of that edge on a tight 7f two turn turf course with a full field. I know she can do those turns and negotiate the trafic. You sure he can? I've never seen him in a situation where he wanted to go and had to hold back at first. I'd take him over her in a mile at Belmont, but not so sure about Churchill.
He is certainly on a wide open straight mile. He loses much of that edge on a tight 7f two turn turf course with a full field. I know she can do those turns and negotiate the trafic. You sure he can? I've never seen him in a situation where he wanted to go and had to hold back at first. I'd take him over her in a mile at Belmont, but not so sure about Churchill.
Frankel absolutely pounded both Canford Cliffs and Immortal Verse, the two horses that have beaten Goldikova this year. I doubt that two turns would make up that much of a difference. And he did win easily after racing in traffic last year. He's a truly sensational horse.
nearco
10-15-2011, 12:38 PM
Frankel absolutely pounded both Canford Cliffs and Immortal Verse, the two horses that have beaten Goldikova this year.
He also pounded Dream Ahead in the Guineas, who just beat Goldi last time out in the Foret.
So he has beaten all three horses that beat Goldi this year.
nearco
10-15-2011, 12:44 PM
I doubt that two turns would make up that much of a difference. And he did win easily after racing in traffic last year. He's a truly sensational horse.
I wouldn't be as sure. Plenty of top Euro milers have not liked those American dog tracks.
It's a moot point anyway. He is not going to the BC this year, and if he comes next year he will running for the big prize.
classhandicapper
10-15-2011, 01:00 PM
Someone has to explain something to me.
I was just looking through the results at Ascot on my NYRA Rewards account and saw that Frankel paid 2.80 to win 2.00 to place.
How is it possible he could pay 2.00 to place and why would anyone bet him for no return at all?
horses4courses
10-15-2011, 01:18 PM
Someone has to explain something to me.
I was just looking through the results at Ascot on my NYRA Rewards account and saw that Frankel paid 2.80 to win 2.00 to place.
How is it possible he could pay 2.00 to place and why would anyone bet him for no return at all?
I think all the bets went into the UK tote system.
There should be a law against placing a bet that can't win, but can lose.
Methinks they just won't get into to negative place (show) pools.
Some_One
10-15-2011, 01:34 PM
There are the payoffs listed on TVG
RACE: 4Results
POSFinisherWinPlaceShow
1st7-Frankel$2.80$2.20-
2nd6-Excelebration (Ire)-$3.60-
3rd8-Immortal Verse (Ire)-$3.00
Some_One
10-15-2011, 01:35 PM
I think all the bets went into the UK tote system.
There should be a law against placing a bet that can't win, but can lose.
Methinks they just won't get into to negative place (show) pools.
There was a story about a punter in Aussieland accepting a moneyback dividend on Black Caviar so he can get the rebate.
classhandicapper
10-15-2011, 02:30 PM
There are the payoffs listed on TVG
RACE: 4Results
POSFinisherWinPlaceShow
1st7-Frankel$2.80$2.20-
2nd6-Excelebration (Ire)-$3.60-
3rd8-Immortal Verse (Ire)-$3.00
Interesting because that's not what is posted at NYRA.
toussaud
10-15-2011, 05:12 PM
@Timeform1948 Timeform
In case you missed the news, Frankel has provisionally been rated 143 after his QEII win. More in Handicappers' Corner on Monday.
I am not going to profess to be a time form expert, but I think about some of the great performances, Dubai Millennium in the world cup, Sea the stars 2 years ago... i don't think this was that level whatsoever. am i wrong?
UK View
10-15-2011, 05:21 PM
Very very small chance of Frankel turning up to this years Breeders Cup IMO.
And do not discount Goldikova. Lost nothing in defeat to Immortal Verse two starts ago.Immortal Verse is an exceptional filly on soft/heavy ground and pretty damn good on quicker ground as seen today (3rd to Frankel).
Also narrowly beaten by Dream Ahead in the Prix de la Foret. Dream Ahead is also top class at best and looks likely to take on Goldikova again in the mile.
Goldikova may not be quite as good as she was, but I still think she is the one they all have to beat.
Steve R
10-15-2011, 05:48 PM
@Timeform1948 Timeform
In case you missed the news, Frankel has provisionally been rated 143 after his QEII win. More in Handicappers' Corner on Monday.
I am not going to profess to be a time form expert, but I think about some of the great performances, Dubai Millennium in the world cup, Sea the stars 2 years ago... i don't think this was that level whatsoever. am i wrong?
Consider this. Dubai Millennium won the DWC by 6 lengths with a RPR 139. Behrens was second with a 127, a lifetime high with a previous best of 117. Frankel won the QEII by 4 lengths. Excelebration was second with a 129, also a lifetime high with a previous best of 126. So you need to take into account 6 lengths at 10f vs 4 lengths at a mile plus the fact that Excelebration was considered by the Racing Post to be much superior to Behrens going in. Similarly, Immortal Verse, which was third in the QEII, had a previous best of 123 compared to Public Purse, third to Dubal Millennium, with a previous best of 116. Frankel won easily while cruising, and according the the Racing Post defeated better horses than Dubai Millennium did.
PhantomOnTour
10-15-2011, 06:00 PM
Hope he doesn't come over for the Mile...i want to take a shot against Goldikova this year.
She will not be as heavy a chalk this year.
horses4courses
10-15-2011, 10:48 PM
Not going to happen.
Quote from Bloodhorse:
Henry Cecil said after the race that he won't make the trip.
"It's been a long year and I'm looking forward to getting a winter over him," Cecil said. "He's a champion, he's out of the ordinary and hopefully he will continue to prove himself next year.
"He won't run again. He'll be put away for the winter."
Read more: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/65566/frankel-rolls-to-ninth-straight-win-in-qe-ii#ixzz1auPkZIWt
Not going to happen.
Quote from Bloodhorse:
Henry Cecil said after the race that he won't make the trip.
"It's been a long year and I'm looking forward to getting a winter over him," Cecil said. "He's a champion, he's out of the ordinary and hopefully he will continue to prove himself next year.
"He won't run again. He'll be put away for the winter."
Read more: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/65566/frankel-rolls-to-ninth-straight-win-in-qe-ii#ixzz1auPkZIWt
A long year? Didn't he race like 5 whole times?
horses4courses
10-15-2011, 10:55 PM
A long year? Didn't he race like 5 whole times?
2011 took more out of Sir Henry than his prize horse, I'm thinking..... :)
At least Frankel is due to race next year, though. That's a bonus.
2011 took more out of Sir Henry than his prize horse, I'm thinking..... :)
At least Frankel is due to race next year, though. That's a bonus.
I guess, but if he is going to race 5 times who cares really?
ps...Might want to work on that signature, your tickets at 300-1 are almost worthless
horses4courses
10-15-2011, 11:23 PM
I guess, but if he is going to race 5 times who cares really?
ps...Might want to work on that signature, your tickets at 300-1 are almost worthless
If I can get 300-1 on tomorrow being Monday, I'll bet on it.
As long as I can get 1-200 somewhere else on it being Sunday....... ;)
I guess, but if he is going to race 5 times who cares really?
I do. It's five more races than a lot of connections would give that horse. Welcome to the contemporary horse racing industry.
Humph
10-16-2011, 06:31 AM
A long year? Didn't he race like 5 whole times?
Frankel's season in training started on February 1st , so this might be what Cecil is refering to.
And it's hardly the horse's fault that the British racing calendar only provides so many Gr 1 races over a mile , Henry Cecil being particularly unwilling to run Frankel over further as a 3-Y-O ( Cecil seems to hold a distain for horses that don't get a mile - over the years he's trained very few 5/6f horses - and other trainers may well have cut this very quick horse back to 6 furlongs somewhere along the line this year ) . Do , however , expect more outings next season when the horse will , almost certainly , be tested over 10 furlongs , which will present connections with far more options.
OTM Al
10-16-2011, 08:11 AM
A long year? Didn't he race like 5 whole times?
Maybe he should be retired. He's done enough.......
PaceAdvantage
10-17-2011, 02:40 AM
He'll be retired when he loses by a nose. Once that happens, people will be on here saying that the horse has given enough and should be sent home...the fact that he lost is all the evidence they need.
Maybe they'll run a nuclear bone scan on him first just to be sure though... :rolleyes:
Even since Zenyatta, you either win, or you're retired.
Tough game.
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