1st timer sets track record

[firstoffclaim]

Applauding at Keeneland, 6f in 1:07.76

[strapper]

I just saw her do it with the greatest of ease. Another good one for Al Stall it appears.

[cj]

I just saw her do it with the greatest of ease. Another good one for Al Stall it appears.

Could be, but that track is probably souped up. There sure are some fast times recorded on synthetics.

[Robert Fischer]

Could be, but that track is probably souped up. There sure are some fast times recorded on synthetics.

conveyor belt.

she was even more impressive in the walking ring to me than in her fast race, although she is a talented horse in top condition. Some things besides the track that i wasn't thrilled with.

[KirisClown]

PLV4RHwfA9Y

[the little guy]

Could be, but that track is probably souped up. There sure are some fast times recorded on synthetics.

The track was lightning fast.

A subsequent allowance race went 1:07 4/5 en route to 1:14 2/5 for 6 1/2 Furlongs.

[Grits]

The track was lightning fast.

A subsequent allowance race went 1:07 4/5 en route to 1:14 2/5 for 6 1/2 Furlongs.

I can't figure how they made poly so lightning fast for one to break a track record. It just seems plain odd!!! Honestly, it does. But then, too, I've only played the meet one day. When for years past, it was everyday, Spring and Fall.

I'd rather play NYRA these days, which has been the case for a long time now.

[firstoffclaim]

they are also saying that a strong headwind down the stretch made the times faster than the norm

[the little guy]

they are also saying that a strong headwind down the stretch made the times faster than the norm


That sounds confusing to me.

[Overlay]

That sounds confusing to me.
Plus, even if there were a tailwind in one direction (either the backstretch or the homestretch), wouldn't the horses have had to run into (against) the wind when they were going the other direction?

[the little guy]

Plus, even if it was a tailwind in one direction (either the backstretch or the homestretch), wouldn't the field have had to run into the wind going the other direction?

Stop making sense!

[Tread]

This was all about the wind. The impact is more on the back stretch than the home stretch because the finish line is not exactly on the turn where they started from (and the impact is obv even more pronounced on 7f races). Additionally, the wind was a bit cool today and at 25-30mph sustained it undoubted cooled the track surface temp, which make poly faster.

For those of you scratching your heads wondering why a track super wanted to make the track faster today, it doesn't make any sense because it didn't happen that way. Conspiracy theories :rolleyes:

[Dave Schwartz]

Let me get this straight... a FTS set the track record?

And people wonder why the speed numbers on this track are goofy?

[the little guy]

This was all about the wind. The impact is more on the back stretch than the home stretch because the finish line is not exactly on the turn where they started from (and the impact is obv even more pronounced on 7f races). Additionally, the wind was a bit cool today and at 25-30mph sustained it undoubted cooled the track surface temp, which make poly faster.

For those of you scratching your heads wondering why a track super wanted to make the track faster today, it doesn't make any sense because it didn't happen that way. Conspiracy theories :rolleyes:


I know I'm convinced.

[firstoffclaim]

http://www.drf.com/news/keeneland-two-year-old-sets-six-furlong-track-record

[Tread]

Let me get this straight... a FTS set the track record?

And people wonder why the speed numbers on this track are goofy?

Speed numbers that don't take wind into account are going to be goofy no matter the surface. Unless you truly believe that 7500 claimers can get 7F in 122.2 because the track super wanted to speed up the track for a Friday afternoon card that included a feature race on the turf.

[the little guy]

Speed numbers that don't take wind into account are going to be goofy no matter the surface. Unless you truly believe that 7500 claimers can get 7F in 122.2 because the track super wanted to speed up the track for a Friday afternoon card that included a feature race on the turf.

The track was lightning fast. Referring to it as " souped up " is not making some paranoid allusion to what the track super did...it's a euphemism.

[Striker]

FYI--Applauding worked heads up with Congenial on 10/7 in a 4f gate move in 47 and 2/5. Congenial runs Saturday in Race 7 MSW route (9-2 ml) at Keeneland for Stall, Gomez rides.

[BIG49010]

Seems like when they get rain, which they had yesterday it gets very quick.

It has been quicker than normal all meeting, and the combination today was unreal. The 2nd place horse lost by 9 at Arlington last race 111 2/5. Todays race which lost by 9 was 107 3/5.

[Robert Fischer]

WIND.


shes an aerodynamic filly

[BlueShoe]

2-5 next time out in her first start against winners and then perhaps bouncy bouncy??

[CincyHorseplayer]

Even with a faster than normal track and wind on the backstretch,I still think it is eye catching that it was a 2yo and a filly at that,that ran this fast.

What kind of speed-pace fig are you coming up with for this race CJ?

[Tom]

What happens at Keeneland stays at Keeneland.

[cj]

This was all about the wind. The impact is more on the back stretch than the home stretch because the finish line is not exactly on the turn where they started from (and the impact is obv even more pronounced on 7f races). Additionally, the wind was a bit cool today and at 25-30mph sustained it undoubted cooled the track surface temp, which make poly faster.

For those of you scratching your heads wondering why a track super wanted to make the track faster today, it doesn't make any sense because it didn't happen that way. Conspiracy theories :rolleyes:

It is not all about wind. It is certainly a factor, but moisture is factor #1 when it comes to track speed, especially on synthetics.

Back to wind, sure a tailwind down the backstretch could make times faster, but that is rarely the case. They run longer with the wind, but they are more tired when they run into the wind so the effect is multiplied.

[PICSIX]

FYI--Applauding worked heads up with Congenial on 10/7 in a 4f gate move in 47 and 2/5. Congenial runs Saturday in Race 7 MSW route (9-2 ml) at Keeneland for Stall, Gomez rides.



Shhhhhhhhhhh, keep it quiet! :lol:

[Robert Fischer]

the horse is ML 2nd choice and will probably go off around 7-2.

[Robert Fischer]

What happens at Keeneland stays at Keeneland.

This. ;)

[Bruddah]

Let me get this straight... a FTS set the track record?

And people wonder why the speed numbers on this track are goofy?

I no longer wonder why or play the track. Its' been a goofy track to play since they installed plasticrap.

[Dave Schwartz]

I no longer wonder why or play the track. Its' been a goofy track to play since they installed plasticrap.

Exactly!

And SA earned a pass from me for this meet as well.

[Tread]

CJ, I think you will find many people consider the surface temp of the poly a more important factor than the moisture content, which is why I said it was "all" about the wind. The wind is the reason the surface temp was cooler than all recent days, along with the fact that it applied more help than hindrance based on the direction it was blowing.

And as for the rest of you, really sad that you turned this into yet another opportunity to dismiss polytrack. But when you realize a FTS also holds the track record in a sprint distance (6.5f) at Churchill on dirt as well, you realize what a stupid talking point this was. Or maybe you don't and you keep looking for any way possible to talk down poly no matter how dumb the point.

[cj]

CJ, I think you will find many people consider the surface temp of the poly a more important factor than the moisture content, which is why I said it was "all" about the wind. The wind is the reason the surface temp was cooler than all recent days, along with the fact that it applied more help than hindrance based on the direction it is blowing.

And as for the rest of you, really sad that you turned this into yet another opportunity to dismiss polytrack. But when you realize a FTS also holds the track record in a sprint distance (6.5f) at Churchill on dirt as well, you realize what a stupid talking point this was. Or maybe you don't and you keep looking for any way possible to talk down poly no matter how dumb the point.


I would have to disagree with them. Moisture makes it fast at least as much as temperature, most likely more. Do you remember the experiment at Delmar when they weren't adding water? It was certainly warm, and the surface was so slow you could time races with a calendar.

The horse was given a 92 Beyer for those interested.

[Tread]

I would have to disagree with them. Moisture makes it fast at least as much as temperature, most likely more. Do you remember the experiment at Delmar when they weren't adding water? It was certainly warm, and the surface was so slow you could time races with a calendar.

The horse was given a 92 Beyer for those interested.

Makes perfect sense to me, both water and wind would cool the surface temp of poly, and the cooler it is, the faster it is. If we are talking about So. California in the summer and not water being added, I would imagine the surface temp was higher than normal, not lower, so I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. It supports the thesis that lower track temp is faster, it doesn't contradict it.

[cj]

Makes perfect sense to me, both water and wind would cool the surface temp of poly, and the cooler it is, the faster it is. If we are talking about So. California in the summer and not water being added, I would imagine the surface temp was higher than normal, not lower, so I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. It supports the thesis that lower track temp is faster, it doesn't contradict it.

Then why isn't Turfway fast in the winter? It is painfully slow most nights. Obviously, it is cold and they aren't watering.

[KirisClown]

Applauding will make her next start in the Hollywood Starlet..

Record setting filly headed to Hollywood Starlet (http://www.drf.com/news/keeneland-record-setting-filly-headed-hollywood-starlet)

[Tread]

Then why isn't Turfway fast in the winter? It is painfully slow most nights. Obviously, it is cold and they aren't watering.

Is the surface slow? Or the horses racing there during the winter complete garbage?

[cj]

Is the surface slow? Or the horses racing there during the winter complete garbage?

I'm pretty good at measuring track speed regardless of the stock racing on it. It is slow.

[Tread]

I'm pretty good at measuring track speed regardless of the stock racing on it. It is slow.

Great, and Keeneland publishes the track surface temp on their website, so you should be able to give us some actual data. Have you ever actually looked into this, or are you dismissing it because you assume poly behaves like dirt when it comes to water?

[cj]

Great, and Keeneland publishes the track surface temp on their website, so you should be able to give us some actual data. Have you ever actually looked into this, or are you dismissing it because you assume poly behaves like dirt when it comes to water?

...or you could. I already gave you facts and you ignored them.

I make figures for every track every day, so I have a pretty good idea what I am talking about. Woodbine publishes similar data, including track maintenance performed, and has a much longer meet. I've studied it for several years.

[Tread]

And you ignored that some of your "facts" actually supported the thesis.

It's probably not best to broad-brush all poly surfaces, because most surfaces are different composition, and in some cases dramatically different. So it could be possible that on some poly surfaces water has a greater impact than temperature.

It would come down to wax content. Physics would tell us that water that binds a dirt surface together making it tighter (and thus faster), so water plays a crucial role in dirt track speeds. But water is repelled by wax and should not have the same tightening impact on a surface with high wax content.

Physics also tells us that higher temperature items are less compact, as their molecules as faster and more spread out. This means that under equal moisture content, a warmer track should be slower.

There may also be a bell-curve, or sweet spot, where temperature is concerned on poly surfaces where water is generally repelled instead of held. As temperatures approach freezing, the consistency may not be as tight as it actually becomes too rigid to be conducive to speed (comparatively speaking to the 55-65 degree range).

[cj]

And you ignored that some of your "facts" actually supported the thesis.

All I said was that water clearly has an effect...the more moisture the faster the track. I didn't deny temperature has an effect, but having studied more than a handful of synthetic tracks (I have no idea why you bring up dirt) moisture causes bigger changes in track speed then changes in temperature.

Delmar is the perfect test to show what moisture can do. The temperature is pretty much always the same. During dry periods, I haven't seen changes near that caused by moisture when there are temperature fluctuations.

[CincyHorseplayer]

CJ, I think you will find many people consider the surface temp of the poly a more important factor than the moisture content, which is why I said it was "all" about the wind. The wind is the reason the surface temp was cooler than all recent days, along with the fact that it applied more help than hindrance based on the direction it was blowing.

And as for the rest of you, really sad that you turned this into yet another opportunity to dismiss polytrack. But when you realize a FTS also holds the track record in a sprint distance (6.5f) at Churchill on dirt as well, you realize what a stupid talking point this was. Or maybe you don't and you keep looking for any way possible to talk down poly no matter how dumb the point.

If the surface temp of poly speeds it up so much,ho come there aren't world records set at Turfway in the dead of winter when they run?

I live in Cincinnati and it gets ice cold here.We don't see ultra fast times at Turfway.

[Tread]

If the surface temp of poly speeds it up so much,ho come there aren't world records set at Turfway in the dead of winter when they run?

I live in Cincinnati and it gets ice cold here.We don't see ultra fast times at Turfway.

I already addressed this point above, if you had taken the time to read. It is very likely that there is a bell-curve and sweet spot for temperature on poly as there is with moisture on dirt tracks. The ideal moisture content on a dirt track for "fast" conditions is roughly 8% from the studies I've seen, too much and it is muddy soup (why tracks are sealed during rain) and too little and you are running on loose sand.

A fast surface is both tight and "springy" and returns maximum energy to a horse while it runs. As temps approach freezing, the springy characteristic would lessen. It would still be "fast" but not in the sweet spot.

But even more to the original point, this time was wind-aided and more a function of the wind than the glib surface (which the wind also contributed to). Especially when you factor in that it was not raining that day and the wind had been blowing so strongly that any moisture in the track would have evaporated long ago (keep in mind the surface is designed to repel water to begin with). Unless Keeneland has a water truck out between races (which to my knowledge they do not), there could not have been much moisture in that track at all given it was a clear day with 30MPH sustained winds and the surface is not designed to hold water to begin with.

[Robert Fischer]

Keeneland: http://www.keeneland.com/racing/Pictures/PDF%20documents/Maintenance%20Equipment.pdf

Keeneland’s Polytrack Maintenance Equipment
Gallop Masters
A Gallop Master is used to condition or work the racetrack surface, providing the final finish for the surface before racing or training. It is equipped with depth adjusters fitted to either side of the tool frame. Rollers in front and back allow the Gallop Master to continuously level the surface. Tines, located between the sets of rollers eliminate the previous footprints, providing the finished surface. Gallop Masters come in varying widths to allow tractors to run in different paths on the track so they do not create areas of isolated compaction.
Power Harrows
A Power Harrow is used to loosen the surface and maintain the pad depth. It is adjusted to be parallel to the surface. A roller on the back of the Power Harrow serves to re-pack the top portion of the surface back down after the pad is loosened to the proper depth.
Rotovators
A Rotovator, very similar to a rototiller, is used to remix the surface and maintain the pad depth. The Rotovator also is equipped with a roller to begin compacting the top portion of the surface after remixing.

[CincyHorseplayer]

I already addressed this point above, if you had taken the time to read. It is very likely that there is a bell-curve and sweet spot for temperature on poly as there is with moisture on dirt tracks. The ideal moisture content on a dirt track for "fast" conditions is roughly 8% from the studies I've seen, too much and it is muddy soup (why tracks are sealed during rain) and too little and you are running on loose sand.

A fast surface is both tight and "springy" and returns maximum energy to a horse while it runs. As temps approach freezing, the springy characteristic would lessen. It would still be "fast" but not in the sweet spot.

But even more to the original point, this time was wind-aided and more a function of the wind than the glib surface (which the wind also contributed to). Especially when you factor in that it was not raining that day and the wind had been blowing so strongly that any moisture in the track would have evaporated long ago (keep in mind the surface is designed to repel water to begin with). Unless Keeneland has a water truck out between races (which to my knowledge they do not), there could not have been much moisture in that track at all given it was a clear day with 30MPH sustained winds and the surface is not designed to hold water to begin with.

Frankly.This is pure,unadulterated BS.

[Tread]

Which point are you disagreeing with? I realize not all horse players are interested in physics, but if you are taking an alternate position to most of the points I just made, you are breaking the laws of physics. But my guess is, since you don't understand any of this, you decided you would just call it all BS and not provide any detail to your opinion.

Here is one of the studies that was done on dirt about energy return of track surface. Would be interesting if this same team would do a similar study on poly and account for temperature.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S073708069780456X

[eastie]

FYI--Applauding worked heads up with Congenial on 10/7 in a 4f gate move in 47 and 2/5. Congenial runs Saturday in Race 7 MSW route (9-2 ml) at Keeneland for Stall, Gomez rides.

he didn't have his mind on racing, he was thinking about some filly. next time if he doesn't show up in the paddock with a stiffer, bet all you got.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Which point are you disagreeing with? I realize not all horse players are interested in physics, but if you are taking an alternate position to most of the points I just made, you are breaking the laws of physics. But my guess is, since you don't understand any of this, you decided you would just call it all BS and not provide any detail to your opinion.

Here is one of the studies that was done on dirt about energy return of track surface. Would be interesting if this same team would do a similar study on poly and account for temperature.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S073708069780456X

If you are talking about certain temperature ranges to validate your theory,then yes indeed we are bordering on pseudoscience here.I thought the original theory was poly + cold=fast.Not true and Turfway is a great example.Which has been backed up by more respectable posters than myself.I'm all ears on this temperature range bias though.I'd bet probable pace against it though!;)

[therussmeister]

CJ, I think you will find many people consider the surface temp of the poly a more important factor than the moisture content, which is why I said it was "all" about the wind. The wind is the reason the surface temp was cooler than all recent days,


The wind does not cool anything below air temperature. It makes us living creatures feel colder, but that is just our perception, not actual temperature. So the track surface temperature cannot be colder on a windy day then on a calm day with the same air temperature, unless track maintenance is doing something between races to raise the surface temperature, in which case wind would cause the temperature to cool to air temperature faster.

[affirmedny]

The wind does not cool anything below air temperature. It makes us living creatures feel colder, but that is just our perception, not actual temperature. So the track surface temperature cannot be colder on a windy day then on a calm day with the same air temperature, unless track maintenance is doing something between races to raise the surface temperature, in which case wind would cause the temperature to cool to air temperature faster.

very sharp post

[Tread]

The wind does not cool anything below air temperature. It makes us living creatures feel colder, but that is just our perception, not actual temperature. So the track surface temperature cannot be colder on a windy day then on a calm day with the same air temperature, unless track maintenance is doing something between races to raise the surface temperature, in which case wind would cause the temperature to cool to air temperature faster.

When the air is cooler than the surface temperature, the rate at which the ground will be cooled will be greatly accelerated under windy conditions. So your post is incorrect. On a transitional day when we are moving from warmer temperatures to cooler ones, the rate at which the surface temperature adjusts would differ quite noticeable between a day with 30MPH at 52 degrees vs a completely calm day.

EDIT - I agree that the end result temperature would never go lower than the air temp regardless of whether or not wind was blowing, which is the point you seem to be making here, but if you did 2 separate experiments the surface temperature would reach that terminal point much more quickly under windy conditions than it would on a still day. If it had been cold for many days in a row, you would have a point here, however this was the first cool day after a string of very warm ones.

And to the other poster, as I already said, a similar sweet-spot curve exists for water content in dirt tracks. It is not at one extreme or the other. Since poly is designed to not hold water at all, there could be other properties, like temperature, that hold more importance into defining the sweet spot status on poly. Without any scientific research, it is hard to say. But to dismiss it without any factual basis seems premature.

[cj]

Since poly is designed to not hold water at all, there could be other properties, like temperature, that hold more importance into defining the sweet spot status on poly. Without any scientific research, it is hard to say. But to dismiss it without any factual basis seems premature.

Have you tried wetting polytrack? Just take a handful when you have the opportunity and dump some water on it. It gets wet, i.e. it does hold some water.

[BlueShoe]

Applauding will make her next start in the Hollywood Starlet..

Record setting filly headed to Hollywood Starlet (http://www.drf.com/news/keeneland-record-setting-filly-headed-hollywood-starlet)
She would be making only her second lifetime start after being away for 60 days, shipping across country, racing over a new surface, trying two turns after only a single sprint, and facing much tougher seasoned fillies. Talk about rushing this filly and giving her a great deal of things to do, if she pulls this off and wins, or even runs well, will certainly give her credit.