Dutrow's License Revoked for 10 Years

[jelly]

New York regulators revoked Rick Dutrow’s license for at least 10 years


Dutrow, who one board member said has been cited for violating various racing rules in nine states and 15 different tracks, is also barred from being on the grounds of any racetrack in New York during the 10-year period.




Read more: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/65504/dutrows-license-revoked-for-10-years#ixzz1aaojtd1m
Read more: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/65504/dutrows-license-revoked-for-10-years#ixzz1aaoelUzu

[Shelby]

and bars him from applying for reinstatement for 10 years.

DRFInsidePost (http://twitter.com/#%21/DRFInsidePost) Daily Racing Form



New York racing board revokes Rick Dutrow's license and bars him from applying for reinstatement for 10 years.

DRFInsidePost (http://twitter.com/#%21/DRFInsidePost) Daily Racing Form



Dutrow will almost certainly appeal and seek a stay of the ruling, which does not become effective until Oct. 18.

[Shelby]

Oops, sorry Jelly!

PA, please delete my tardy post :)

[toussaud]

wow

[Shelby]

Here's a link to more:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/65504/dutrows-license-revoked-for-10-years

[Hanover1]

So does KY follow suit? His chances for winning appeal are slim and none, and none isn't entered. Anybody that didn't see this one coming from a long ways back, missed the boat.

[LottaKash]

Hooray !!!!!.....:jump: :jump: :jump:
(about time, I'd say)

[toussaud]

does this mean rail trip goes back to ellis

[andymays]

There are lots of guys that have the similar records but probably none have stuck their foot in their mouths as much as he has. Having said that I think the punishment is too harsh and I think that he should fight it.

[Hanover1]

There are lots of guys that have the similar records but probably none have stuck their foot in their mouths as much as he has. Having said that I think the punishment is too harsh and I think that he should fight it.

West coast bias

[andymays]

West coast bias

Mullins comes in second. Does that help? LOL

I don't trust the racing officials who do collect the samples or the labs that do the testing. In Mullins case there was a lot of shady stuff done on the part of the CHRB. This article is a good read. I can't believe that California is the only place this stuff goes on.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/63099/mullins-to-fight-70-day-ban-to-bitter-end#ixzz1aazLrUfb

Frank Moore, chief of the CHRB's investigation unit from November 2000 until his retirement in February 2007, supports Mullins' contention that he was being pursued by Fermin.

"The truth is we were targeting Jeff Mullins; he was one of several trainers," Moore said. "We were concentrating on him. We had his barn under surveillance. We stationed investigators there."

Barn searches, he said, were routine and the horses of certain trainers, including Mullins, were subject to out-of-competition testing for blood doping.

A document obtained by The Blood-Horse of an email message from Fermin lists Mullins as one of five trainers whose horses' blood samples were to be retained and frozen for future testing. The UC Davis lab keeps hundreds of such samples in storage so they can be tested again as new substances are identified.

Moore said it was an odd time to be a CHRB investigator. Fermin, he noted, came into office promising to clean up drug cheating. Her predecessor, Roy C. Wood, had been criticized by some for settling on the side of leniency with trainers found responsible for medication violations.

"Mullins was winning at the time and if you were winning at a high percentage, you were presumed to be cheating," Moore said. "The investigator's job was to find out how."

Mullins' objection to his treatment begins with the 2006 case involving Robs Coin, an Idaho-bred claiming horse he took for $32,000 on behalf of owner Darren Carraway. Robs Coin finished second in a $40,000 claiming race at Hollywood Park July 8, 2006 and was randomly selected for post-race testing.

Analysis of the urine sample done by the equine testing laboratory at the University of California-Davis resulted in a positive finding for mepivacaine, a local anesthetic commonly used for suturing after routine veterinary procedures. Mullins vigorously protested his innocence in the case, saying the horse was perfectly sound and would not have required mepivacaine for any purpose.

Jerald Mosely, the deputy attorney general prosecuting the case, did not submit the results of a report from Dr. Gus Cothran, a DNA expert from Texas A&M University, according to the report of the administrative law judge. Cothran, who was acting in response to a request from Mosely, compared the original urine sample tested by UC-Davis to urine, blood and hair samples taken from Robs Coin.

According to his affidavit at the time, "the original urine sample (found to contain mepivacaine) was contaminated with the presence of more than one horse."

[matthewsiv]

Should have been banned for life.

So should the other trainers who consistently ignore the rules.

Nobody has the right to be licensed if they do not obey the rules.

[Hanover1]

Mullins comes in second. Does that help? LOL

I don't trust the racing officials who do collect the samples or the labs that do the testing. In Mullins case there was a lot of shady stuff done on the part of the CHRB. This article is a good read. I can't believe that California is the only place this stuff goes on.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/63099/mullins-to-fight-70-day-ban-to-bitter-end#ixzz1aazLrUfb

Frank Moore, chief of the CHRB's investigation unit from November 2000 until his retirement in February 2007, supports Mullins' contention that he was being pursued by Fermin.

"The truth is we were targeting Jeff Mullins; he was one of several trainers," Moore said. "We were concentrating on him. We had his barn under surveillance. We stationed investigators there."

Barn searches, he said, were routine and the horses of certain trainers, including Mullins, were subject to out-of-competition testing for blood doping.

A document obtained by The Blood-Horse of an email message from Fermin lists Mullins as one of five trainers whose horses' blood samples were to be retained and frozen for future testing. The UC Davis lab keeps hundreds of such samples in storage so they can be tested again as new substances are identified.

Moore said it was an odd time to be a CHRB investigator. Fermin, he noted, came into office promising to clean up drug cheating. Her predecessor, Roy C. Wood, had been criticized by some for settling on the side of leniency with trainers found responsible for medication violations.

"Mullins was winning at the time and if you were winning at a high percentage, you were presumed to be cheating," Moore said. "The investigator's job was to find out how."

Mullins' objection to his treatment begins with the 2006 case involving Robs Coin, an Idaho-bred claiming horse he took for $32,000 on behalf of owner Darren Carraway. Robs Coin finished second in a $40,000 claiming race at Hollywood Park July 8, 2006 and was randomly selected for post-race testing.

Analysis of the urine sample done by the equine testing laboratory at the University of California-Davis resulted in a positive finding for mepivacaine, a local anesthetic commonly used for suturing after routine veterinary procedures. Mullins vigorously protested his innocence in the case, saying the horse was perfectly sound and would not have required mepivacaine for any purpose.

Jerald Mosely, the deputy attorney general prosecuting the case, did not submit the results of a report from Dr. Gus Cothran, a DNA expert from Texas A&M University, according to the report of the administrative law judge. Cothran, who was acting in response to a request from Mosely, compared the original urine sample tested by UC-Davis to urine, blood and hair samples taken from Robs Coin.

According to his affidavit at the time, "the original urine sample (found to contain mepivacaine) was contaminated with the presence of more than one horse."


In all fairness Andy, we have all been down this road already. Did they target Dutrow, as you claim via the Mullins info? Mullins did enough to warrant the target. He was not chosen out of a pillbox ala the draw. Same goes for our beloved Dickey "Babe" Dutrow.

[andymays]

In all fairness Andy, we have all been down this road already. Did they target Dutrow, as you claim via the Mullins info? Mullins did enough to warrant the target. He was not chosen out of a pillbox ala the draw. Same goes for our beloved Dickey "Babe" Dutrow.

Mullins was targeted as soon as he got here. Racing Officials should be even handed and fair. That isn't the case in California.

[tzipi]

This is why he is training under the name Rudy Rodriquez :D :D

[Hanover1]

This is why he is training under the name Rudy Rodriquez :D :D

Owners who agree with the beard deals gotta go too.....

[andymays]

It appears that Dutrow is good for business on this board. I haven't seen that many visitors in a long time.

[cj]

There are lots of guys that have the similar records but probably none have stuck their foot in their mouths as much as he has. Having said that I think the punishment is too harsh and I think that he should fight it.

That is because there are a few with worse records in SoCal.

[andymays]

That is because there are a few with worse records in SoCal.

Who?

[cj]

Who?

Give me a day.

[grant miller]

the beards are killing harness racing how long before it kills the runners too?

[andymays]

Give me a day.
:lol:

O'Neill?????

It doesn't matter. Like I said I don't trust the people who are supposed to police the sport.

[CryingForTheHorses]

There are lots of guys that have the similar records but probably none have stuck their foot in their mouths as much as he has. Having said that I think the punishment is too harsh and I think that he should fight it.

69 rule infractions in several states..Who does he think he is?.This guy thinks he is above the law.I dont know why you think its too harsh.They need to get a few more of these guys out of the business also.These are the people that are hurting the game.I think he should have gotten life like I would have.The only reason he didnt is because he has money and lawyers fighting for him.The game just got a little better with this rulng.I would think other states will follow NY on this suspension. :ThmbUp:

[cj]

:lol:

O'Neill?????

It doesn't matter. Like I said I don't trust the people who are supposed to police the sport.

I don't either, but I trust trainers even less. Someday has to be the first to go, may as well be Dutrow.

[andymays]

69 rule infractions in several states..Who does he think he is?.This guy thinks he is above the law.I dont know why you think its too harsh.They need to get a few more of these guys out of the business also.These are the people that are hurting the game.I think he should have gotten life like I would have.The only reason he didnt is because he has money and lawyers fighting for him.The game just got a little better with this rulng.I would think other states will follow NY on this suspension. :ThmbUp:

What happens if you happen to get a positive from cross contamination or a sample mixed up with another sample? I don't know about Dutrow but I do know what went on in California over the last 20 years with the CHRB and it ain't pretty.

[andymays]

I don't either, but I trust trainers even less. Someday has to be the first to go, may as well be Dutrow.

CHRB Whistle Blower Sues Agency | BloodHorse.com
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/62861/chrb-whistle-blower-sues-agency

Excerpt:

Beginning in July 2006, Atashkar alleged he became aware of improper activities by Fermin, Shapiro and others, including "misappropriation of taxpayer funds by CHRB executives; backdating of contracts in favor of friends of CHRB executives; the illegal collection of funds for the benefit of Shapiro and Fermin; pornography and inappropriate video stored in CHRB computer system."

He claimed, in an interview, that he has the documentation to prove that Fermin and Shapiro misused the testing system for Total Carbon Dioxide (TCO2), known as "green sheets," to target individual trainers for prosecution. They also used insider information to warn favored trainers of upcoming tests for particular medications

[CryingForTheHorses]

What happens if you happen to get a positive from cross contamination or a sample mixed up with another sample? I don't know about Dutrow but I do know what went on in California over the last 20 years with the CHRB and it ain't pretty.


Funny how racing is all over the USA and Cali is the only place that this has happened.I dont understand how anything can get contaminated when you watch the urine and blood being sealed and signed..Ive been to the test barn many many times and have NEVER seen any by me or other horseman have contaminated samples..Its a crock of crap and a very weak defence on the guilty parties..How do you have contamination 69 times..How many times has it be proven that tests have been croos-contaminated?

[andymays]

Funny how racing is all over the USA and Cali is the only place that this has happened.I dont understand how anything can get contaminated when you watch the urine and blood being sealed and signed..Ive been to the test barn many many times and have NEVER seen any by me or other horseman have contaminated samples..Its a crock of crap and a very weak defence on the guilty parties..How do you have contamination 69 times..How many times has it be proven that tests have been croos-contaminated?

Like I said I don't know about Dutrow but I do know what went on in California.

[cj]

Like I said I don't know about Dutrow but I do know what went on in California.

We should probably keep this to Dutrow since I don't think it has much to do with California.

[andymays]

We should probably keep this to Dutrow since I don't think it has much to do with California.

My point is that what went on in California probably isn't an isolated incident. It's just that the stuff in California makes the papers more frequently.

I agree let's keep it on Dutrow.

[cj]

My point is that what went on in California probably isn't an isolated incident. It's just that the stuff in California makes the papers more frequently.

I agree let's keep it on Dutrow.

Given the state of California racing, I would tend to think it probably is isolated to that state. We should probably have another thread for that though.

[Tom]

Two words the newly unemployed Dutrow: Box boy

http://www.pigglywiggly.com/employment-info

[nijinski]

A little something from the Aga Khan at the RMTC site,


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Headlines

Aga Khan calls for clear drug testing policies: Racingpost.com 10/04/11
RMTC

The Aga Khan, who celebrated 50 years running his family racing and breeding interests in 2010, has called on international regulatory authorities to abide by a common set of raceday drug-testing policies that are "perfectly clear and transparent about what is, or is not tolerated".

Addressing the highest-ranking officials from around the world at the International Federation of Horseracing Authorities annual conference in Paris, he stressed that he vigorously supported drug-free racing and a strong non-tolerance policy.

However, he added: "In the absence of standards which are clearly defined, known to all and equitably enforced, the drug-detection process loses its credibility, and its effectiveness.

"A problem arises when control laboratories replace old research methods by sensitive new equipment or a refined process that identifies substances at much lower levels than before. Indeed, these new levels may have no impact on a horse's performance.

"The problem is vastly compounded when these changes are kept secret from the industry, and trainers and veterinarians are unaware of new standards for judgement."

The Aga Khan, who figured in one of the highest profile drug-testing cases of recent years, involving the disqualified 1989 Oaks winner Aliysa, described how his racing and breeding experience had been punctuated by "some reversals," including his being "exposed to some of the worst science possible from regulatory laboratories that break all the rules of good practice".


Personally I believe the punishment is too harsh , they are making an example
of Dutrow . There is an endless list at the RMTC site of overages and other rulings from all over this business.

[Casino]

If Big Brown wouldve won the Belmont...... :eek:

[Hanover1]

A little something from the Aga Khan at the RMTC site,


Press Releases
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Media
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Read Our FAQ Headlines | Press Releases | Newsletters | Media | Recent Rulings


Headlines

Aga Khan calls for clear drug testing policies: Racingpost.com 10/04/11
RMTC

The Aga Khan, who celebrated 50 years running his family racing and breeding interests in 2010, has called on international regulatory authorities to abide by a common set of raceday drug-testing policies that are "perfectly clear and transparent about what is, or is not tolerated".

Addressing the highest-ranking officials from around the world at the International Federation of Horseracing Authorities annual conference in Paris, he stressed that he vigorously supported drug-free racing and a strong non-tolerance policy.

However, he added: "In the absence of standards which are clearly defined, known to all and equitably enforced, the drug-detection process loses its credibility, and its effectiveness.

"A problem arises when control laboratories replace old research methods by sensitive new equipment or a refined process that identifies substances at much lower levels than before. Indeed, these new levels may have no impact on a horse's performance.

"The problem is vastly compounded when these changes are kept secret from the industry, and trainers and veterinarians are unaware of new standards for judgement."

The Aga Khan, who figured in one of the highest profile drug-testing cases of recent years, involving the disqualified 1989 Oaks winner Aliysa, described how his racing and breeding experience had been punctuated by "some reversals," including his being "exposed to some of the worst science possible from regulatory laboratories that break all the rules of good practice".


Personally I believe the punishment is too harsh , they are making an example
of Dutrow . There is an endless list at the RMTC site of overages and other rulings from all over this business.

If rubbing folks the wrong way had anything to do with it, we arrive at the discretion of ruling parties here....

[nijinski]

There is no doubt in my mind about that Hanover.

[Tom]

Should have been lifetime.
FAR too many incidents to be "coincidence."

[Hanover1]

Should have been lifetime.
FAR too many incidents to be "coincidence."

Rest assured, not a one incident was "coincidence" "I wasn't even in the State", "I would never do that" is the biggest load of them all for me...If he wasn't so arrogant and pompous, I say, according to how things roll these days, he's good for 5-10 more infractions before its time...lol.

[Citation1947]

Finally a victory for the horse population and the industry!

[ten2oneormore]

If Big Brown wouldve won the Belmont...... :eek:

Some of his babies were fetching some good money at the Keeneland sale.Makes you wonder if he was really good or more Barry Bonds good.I don't know but his Kentucky Derby was extraordinary.

[sammy the sage]

Andy's a BIT smarter than brother...gotta be a grade 3 or better...you'd better have THAT horse covered...

Would love to SEE HIS %'s in grade 3 or better this year...unlike MOST trainer's....would bet it's HIGHER than normal

[classhandicapper]

As someone that's interested in the welfare of the horses, sport, owners, other trainers etc... I am happy about this. However, I made money betting on him every year. So this reminds of a scene from the movie Wall St.

I sort of feel like I am watching my ex wife drive off a cliff........in my new Mazaradi.

[BIG49010]

As someone that's interested in the welfare of the horses, sport, owners, other trainers etc... I am happy about this. However, I made money betting on him every year. So this reminds of a scene from the movie Wall St.

I sort of feel like I am watching my ex wife drive off a cliff........in my new Mazaradi.

I have to agree with you, and being this is a handicapping website, I hate to see him go. I am sure my personal ROI will suffer without him in the game.

I am sure also that his brothers and Rudy Rodriguez will take up the slack, if they haven't already. That is why it is pointless to kick these guys out, they just move there training to a place like Fairhill or Palm Beach (Pletcher a couple years ago), and run the horses in a program trainers name.

[Hanover1]

They were quoted as saying that if they "get a hint of 2nd trainer activity, they will not take it lightly". Just what that entails is anyones guess. I suspect along the lines of Life at Ten rulings :rolleyes:

[Robert Fischer]

a Dutrow fan and supporter here. I can only go by the article, but the opiod overage and the syringes do sound like serious infractions. Trying my best to have some faith in the system that this is a fair shake. If it were up to me, drugs would be at a minimum and relatively equal level for all horses.

[Hanover1]

a Dutrow fan and supporter here. I can only go by the article, but the opiod overage and the syringes do sound like serious infractions. Trying my best to have some faith in the system that this is a fair shake. If it were up to me, drugs would be at a minimum and relatively equal level for all horses.

I myself like Dutrow on a personal level. I do know he is very much in tune with the shed daily, and is on top of his charges both near and afar. He does indeed know his way around a horse, and can get one ready as good as anyone. Its the perception he promotes, and his repeated infractions themselves that puts us off. He is a colorful guy to be sure, but to have all that baggage, combined with the public drama, and his abrasiveness in the face of all this, well its grim for him. Due process is not going to help imo this time.

[BetCrazyGirl]

I myself like Dutrow on a personal level. I do know he is very much in tune with the shed daily, and is on top of his charges both near and afar. He does indeed know his way around a horse, and can get one ready as good as anyone. Its the perception he promotes, and his repeated infractions themselves that puts us off. He is a colorful guy to be sure, but to have all that baggage, combined with the public drama, and his abrasiveness in the face of all this, well its grim for him. Due process is not going to help imo this time.

I'm very much against trainers using drugs and breaking the rules but I do think Dutrow at times is used as an escape goat, probably since he is known more to the public I guess. There are other trainers who are breaking the rules and sometimes even more often with worse violations who just seem to get a slap on the wrist. Thats the preception I have gotten, of course there could be violations I just didn't even know about or what not with Dutrow.

[Valuist]

Dutrow should go to Tennessee and go to work for the company that took Bruce Pearl.

[Tom]

He should go to Tennessee and live in Riverbend.

[BIG49010]

the beards are killing harness racing how long before it kills the runners too?

I hope large outfits don't go to beards, and if it they do, I'm done as a handicapper.

I am sure this will make the trainers with large operations take notice. I know I wouldn't want my ass on the line with 50 horses in 3 states. Why take on the risk of loosing your stable when a $500 a week groom hits a horse with the wrong medication.

[Milkshaker]

"Why take on the risk of loosing your stable when a $500 a week groom hits a horse with the wrong medication."

The other way to look at it is why NOT set up multiple beards to cover your 50-horse multi-state outfit so that when the horse (following YOUR medication program) comes up dirty, the beard takes the fall for you?

[sammy the sage]

I hope large outfits don't go to beards, and if it they do, I'm done as a handicapper.

Guess YOU're DONE then...cause it's ALREADY happenning...several are BEARDING for R.R....

[Tom]

Not to sound ignorant, but the what the heck is this "beard" thing everyone is referring to?

[sammy the sage]

Not to sound ignorant, but the what the heck is this "beard" thing everyone is referring to?

Came up in sports betting and blackjack...the ART or method of a having SUBSTITUTE/runner make your plays FOR you...since YOU were good and your plays would BE blocked otherwise!

[sammy the sage]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

or if other's knew YOUR play....it would DESTROY any value...as they would jump on board...

[rastajenk]

Not to sound ignorant, but the what the heck is this "beard" thing everyone is referring to?I'm glad you asked. :confused:

Now we know. :ThmbUp: Next question: why "beard"? Why not goatee, fu manchu, or pencil-thin mustache? :D

[andymays]

ARCI Online Comprehensive Ruling Report

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B265yMMHh7KJMWJjYTFhOGQtYzlkNC00MjM1LWFmMWU tYTAwMzE1ZTI1NWEz&hl=en_US

[sammy the sage]

the original concept was a player would come back in disguise....ie....beard, wig, glass's...what-ever...but in the end...that wasn't good enough...

Beard was #1 disguise...so hence the term "Beard"

[rastajenk]

Makes sense...thanks

[BIG49010]

Guess YOU're DONE then...cause it's ALREADY happenning...several are BEARDING for R.R....

It has gone on since I started following this sport in 1986, but not to extent where every trainer has a couple of beards for the special few horses that can't win without XXX.

[lamboguy]

the original concept was a player would come back in disguise....ie....beard, wig, glass's...what-ever...but in the end...that wasn't good enough...

Beard was #1 disguise...so hence the term "Beard"the blackjack counters did that for a while until they developed biometrics that is like fingerprints and the casino's can spot you as soon as you walk through the door no matter what you wear or what you have on your eyes.

if dutrow does anything which he probably won't because he has plenty of family in the business, he could train the horses at some training center like fairhill and ship the horses to a track trainer. dutrow is one of the classiest guys in the racing game whether you guys like him or not. he came up from the bottom and hasn't forgotten the people he knew when his elevator was on the bottom and went to the top. he always had fun and was a sincere nice person. there are plenty of other guys in the high echelon that are doing much worse things than dutrow that none of these investigators can figure out. this is the most severe punishment that has been dished out to anyone with these type of infractions no matter how many they are. i am not saying he is right by ignoring orders from authorities to stop training horses while he was on suspension, but dutrow felt he owed an obligation to the people that he trained horses for that stuck with him and cared more about them than himself. by no means am i trying to say that he is right, but that is the type of man he is. so now he pays the penalty.

[andymays]

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/ny-regulators-explain-dutrow-license-revocation/

Excerpt:

“New York's racing industry has no place or patience for Mr. Dutrow,” Chairman Sabini said. “His repeated violations and disregard of the rules of racing has eroded confidence in the betting public and caused an embarrassment throughout the industry. In order to ensure integrity and honesty in the sport of kings in New York, the Board acted appropriately in barring Mr. Dutrow from participating. His self-described "game‟ in New York horse racing is over. We will not permit individuals who cheat and sully New York's world-class racing product.”

The Racing and Wagering Board's Hearing Officer indicated that Mr. Dutrow “is a person whose conduct at racetracks in New York state and elsewhere, has been … unbecoming and detrimental to the best interests of racing…”

[Hanover1]

I don't either, but I trust trainers even less. Someday has to be the first to go, may as well be Dutrow.

Rather broad in scope, but understandable.

[Grits]

I myself like Dutrow on a personal level. I do know he is very much in tune with the shed daily, and is on top of his charges both near and afar. He does indeed know his way around a horse, and can get one ready as good as anyone. Its the perception he promotes, and his repeated infractions themselves that puts us off. He is a colorful guy to be sure, but to have all that baggage, combined with the public drama, and his abrasiveness in the face of all this, well its grim for him. Due process is not going to help imo this time.

You're vocal, and knowledgeable in several of the threads. Given your prior posts are more than clear in regard to your feelings about Dutrow's character as a cheater, rules don't apply, save the drama, glad he's been thrown out of racing, liar, what, exactly, is it you like about him on a personal level?

You have no baggage? Most of us do, of some type or degree. You've not ever lied? Most of us have, in some way, if only now and then. You're more dull than a stump with no excitement or disappointment allowed in your personality, some may term this drama, who knows? Maybe you have excellent control at all times in life. You've not ever made a single decision that caused concern with a horse in your care?

You have displayed arrogance, here, if not ever anywhere else. (?) You read like the perfect human creation, one without pitfalls, mistakes, or imperfections. One who is firm in judgement and even more firm in knowledge, not only of Dutrow, but how to handle, succinctly, the problems of drugs in racing.

Congratulations, you have kindness of heart. One can be glad you like those on a personal level who are so unlike yourself.

[Hanover1]

You're vocal, and knowledgeable in several of the threads. Given your prior posts are more than clear in regard to your feelings about Dutrow's character as a cheater, rules don't apply, save the drama, glad he's been thrown out of racing, liar, what, exactly, is it you like about him on a personal level?

You have no baggage? Most of us do, of some type or degree. You've not ever lied? Most of us have, in some way, if only now and then. You're more dull than a stump with no excitement or disappointment allowed in your personality, some may term this drama, who knows? Maybe you have excellent control at all times in life. You've not ever made a single decision that caused concern with a horse in your care?

You have displayed arrogance, here, if not ever anywhere else. (?) You read like the perfect human creation, one without pitfalls, mistakes, or imperfections. One who is firm in judgement and even more firm in knowledge, not only of Dutrow, but how to handle, succinctly, the problems of drugs in racing.

Congratulations, you have kindness of heart. One can be glad you like those on a personal level who are so unlike yourself.

I never disliked his understanding of the game, and his desire to rise above a tack room existence. Many cannot accomplish even that. He is very hands on in the shed, and many do not operate that way either. His will/need to win has, on many occasions, surpassed his common sense. How this equates to how you feel about me is of no concern to me. I never asked you who you liked. Liking someone and approving of the choices they make at times are two different things in some folks world. I will refrain from any personal attacks, and your observations are taken under advisement.

[Grits]

I never disliked his understanding of the game, and his desire to rise above a tack room existence. Many cannot accomplish even that. He is very hands on in the shed, and many do not operate that way either. His will/need to win has, on many occasions, surpassed his common sense. How this equates to how you feel about me is of no concern to me. I never asked you who you liked. Liking someone and approving of the choices they make at times are two different things in some folks world. I will refrain from any personal attacks, and your observations are taken under advisement.

Too, some folks don't see quite so much as black or white. There are mistakes, there are questions, there are consequences, there is good and there is bad. Some not as grievous as other. Most of us are capable of either on any given day.

Meantime, maybe Rick Dutrow can get a job on Wall Street to carry him the next ten years. Man, there's a windfall.

If I had to wonder further in any of the business of banning, it would be the question of why Patrick Biancone was only given such a short time removed from racing, while having been ruled from every other continent for his infractions? Now with a private training track? Another good move for horseracing? I'm not so sure, really.

I don't have the knowledge that you have Hanover1, so I'll back away from the dialogue. Some of your judgements stuck me as pretty much over the top. And this, sometimes, happens online.

[nijinski]

Sabini is on a mission and appears to want to to destroy Dutrow for his political gain I don't know how this man holds this position . He refused a breathalyzer test during a DUI bust .
Guess I just think the ruling is too severe .

[PaceAdvantage]

The ruling is severe only in that he is "the first to go." Truth be told, any number of trainers around the country deserve this kind of punishment or worse.

Here's how I see this going down:

Dutrow hires a good lawyer. Appeals this decision. Files a lawsuit in civil court and has an injunction granted that allows him to continue training while all these appeals and lawsuits are ongoing. This could take years.

Ultimately, I say the courts side with Dutrow given how racing has conducted itself over the years. And courts take it very seriously when a man's livelihood is at stake.

Given the precedence the racing industry has set (slaps on the wrist), I don't think there is any chance in hell this 10 years ban holds up.

But, that's just my opinion.

[Canarsie]

The ruling is severe only in that he is "the first to go." Truth be told, any number of trainers around the country deserve this kind of punishment or worse.

Here's how I see this going down:

Dutrow hires a good lawyer. Appeals this decision. Files a lawsuit in civil court and has an injunction granted that allows him to continue training while all these appeals and lawsuits are ongoing. This could take years.

Ultimately, I say the courts side with Dutrow given how racing has conducted itself over the years. And courts take it very seriously when a man's livelihood is at stake.

Given the precedence the racing industry has set (slaps on the wrist), I don't think there is any chance in hell this 10 years ban holds up.

But, that's just my opinion.


I agree with this and there will be an out of court settlement. There would be lots of mud slinging if this ever hit the courtroom plus who knows what evidence a judge would be allow.

Dutrow wont hire a good lawyer it will be among the top three. If its one thing a lawyer likes is publicity and while this isn't a murder or Wall Street trial his or her name would be in the spotlight for quite some time. Plus this is the type of clientele a lawyer wants one who has tons of money. People who buy horses fit the bill 100% and the name (lawyer) would be remembered.

[onefast99]

The ruling is severe only in that he is "the first to go." Truth be told, any number of trainers around the country deserve this kind of punishment or worse.

Here's how I see this going down:

Dutrow hires a good lawyer. Appeals this decision. Files a lawsuit in civil court and has an injunction granted that allows him to continue training while all these appeals and lawsuits are ongoing. This could take years.

Ultimately, I say the courts side with Dutrow given how racing has conducted itself over the years. And courts take it very seriously when a man's livelihood is at stake.

Given the precedence the racing industry has set (slaps on the wrist), I don't think there is any chance in hell this 10 years ban holds up.

But, that's just my opinion.
The major difference here is that his charge will be under the care of a hand picked assistant or another trainer who will act as a stand in. He will still have access to everyone by phone. Nothing will change except the personal appearences by Mr Dutrow in the paddock and in the winners circle. We went through this with a NY trainer who was suspended for 45 days, nothing changed at all in fact he called more often because he was bored of being home with his family!

[cj]

Regardless of the outcome, this is going to cost Dutrow a LOT of money.

[Tom]

Maybe the barn will have to hire an outside professional to fill the void!

[Grits]

http://www.drf.com/news/dutrow-faces-hurdles-even-stay-ban

[Grits]

Thinking on this a bit more -- From the above DRF piece it seems quite possible that a judge could understand and adamantly uphold this ruling. Rick Dutrow may well be out of poker chips this time around. It would not be surprising.

As noted in a NYTimes piece by Joe Drape, this man has earned 80 million in winnings for his owners in recent years. This is a helluva lot of bucks, even when one figures the trainer's cut of those earnings, all of which is in addition to his training income for all horses under his care in all of these years. In other words, this is an extremely wealthy man. A wealthy horse trainer.

It will cost him a lot of money in appeals and proceedings. He may have no recourse through his legal team, still, what's he going to do when he's already banned in Kentucky. Didn't apply for his license in New Jersey, so there's no license there. His right to train in Florida at Gulfstream for the coming winter is being contemplated, as this is typed.

Owners have already begun the process of removing horses from his care to other trainers.

This man is, no doubt, not only wealthy and loves what he does for a living, but too, he's smart. Knowledge being the power that it is, its even more powerful in the hands of one with money. Of course, this is a given. I'm not sure that Rick Dutrow and his defense team will go, quietly, into the night, or that Dutrow will go off to some place in the islands to work on his tan and to live out his coming 3 to 4 decades.

Horseracing has the worst, the most tainted, the most questionable image in all of sports. Its been watched, like a rabid dog, with disdain for years now. It can't agree on anything, therefore, the collective groups of swells in charge can't find their ass with their hands. Not a single one of them. Each, territorial, unable to see working in conjunction with each governing body, each jurisdiction as a better, positive direction. Yet, they'll have a meeting, sit on their hands and agree to meet again.

During Big Brown's run for the TC, this man, with his one voice speaking, got anabolic steroids banned did he not? It wasn't his original intent, still, I believe he achieved this for himself as well as other trainers.

Let's say, perhaps, Rick knows he's done. Out of his job, all that he knows as this IS what he's done and loved doing, all of his life. He has not a thing to lose at this point. His wheels, along with his defense team's, may already be turning. One may figure, no, no one will listen to this man. There's no credibility, there's no respect for a cheat. Its all sour grapes. Dutrow's screwed so he's gonna blow the whistle on the entire sport as it has functioned for many years. Good luck with this one, Rick.

If this man chooses, not all the comments from Ogden Mills Phipps and his Jockey Club, the New State Racing and Wagering Board, the commissions, trainers, owners, Triple Crowns and Breeders' Cups will help remove the nails he can hammer in the sport's coffin. As kind as man or beast can be, when one becomes ill, backed in a corner like a rabid dog, one doesn't know what they may be up against. Or the damage that can be incurred.

Food for thought: Should we have another hearing, a Congressional one that I can appear before? If so, gentlemen, since I was helpful in getting anabolic steroids removed from the sport, maybe before I exit, I can help you clean up the game a bit more. How 'bout if I share with you, all of my training skills, skills of those that have assisted me, and too, skills of others trainers I've raced against all these years, particularly those termed, "the super trainers"? You know me as candid, I'll give you all I know that goes on--not only legal, but the illegal use of medications, how these can be circumvented, vet's "best practices", track's "best practices", everyone from accupuncturists to grooms who put their hands on racehorses everyday, handshakes, agreements, testing, labs. In other words, all that goes into the conditioning of racehorses. . . .Sharpen your pencils, guys, every one of you in the game, top to bottom, from those running the show, to owners, to bettors. Your fun and your handicapping could have a shorter future.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Thinking on this a bit more -- From the above DRF piece it seems quite possible that a judge could understand and adamantly uphold this ruling. Rick Dutrow may well be out of poker chips this time around. It would not be surprising.

As noted in a NYTimes piece by Joe Drape, this man has earned 80 million in winnings for his owners in recent years. This is a helluva lot of bucks, even when one figures the trainer's cut of those earnings, all of which is in addition to his training income for all horses under his care in all of these years. In other words, this is an extremely wealthy man. A wealthy horse trainer.

It will cost him a lot of money in appeals and proceedings. He may have no recourse through his legal team, still, what's he going to do when he's already banned in Kentucky. Didn't apply for his license in New Jersey, so there's no license there. His right to train in Florida at Gulfstream for the coming winter is being contemplated, as this is typed.

Owners have already begun the process of removing horses from his care to other trainers.

This man is, no doubt, not only wealthy and loves what he does for a living, but too, he's smart. Knowledge being the power that it is, its even more powerful in the hands of one with money. Of course, this is a given. I'm not sure that Rick Dutrow and his defense team will go, quietly, into the night, or that Dutrow will go off to some place in the islands to work on his tan and to live out his coming 3 to 4 decades.

Horseracing has the worst, the most tainted, the most questionable image in all of sports. Its been watched, like a rabid dog, with disdain for years now. It can't agree on anything, therefore, the collective groups of swells in charge can't find their ass with their hands. Not a single one of them. Each, territorial, unable to see working in conjunction with each governing body, each jurisdiction as a better, positive direction. Yet, they'll have a meeting, sit on their hands and agree to meet again.

During Big Brown's run for the TC, this man, with his one voice speaking, got anabolic steroids banned did he not? It wasn't his original intent, still, I believe he achieved this for himself as well as other trainers.

Let's say, perhaps, Rick knows he's done. Out of his job, all that he knows as this IS what he's done and loved doing, all of his life. He has not a thing to lose at this point. His wheels, along with his defense team's, may already be turning. One may figure, no, no one will listen to this man. There's no credibility, there's no respect for a cheat. Its all sour grapes. Dutrow's screwed so he's gonna blow the whistle on the entire sport as it has functioned for many years. Good luck with this one, Rick.

If this man chooses, not all the comments from Ogden Mills Phipps and his Jockey Club, the New State Racing and Wagering Board, the commissions, trainers, owners, Triple Crowns and Breeders' Cups will help remove the nails he can hammer in the sport's coffin. As kind as man or beast can be, when one becomes ill, backed in a corner like a rabid dog, one doesn't know what they may be up against. Or the damage that can be incurred.

Food for thought: Should we have another hearing, a Congressional one that I can appear before? If so, gentlemen, since I was helpful in getting anabolic steroids removed from the sport, maybe before I exit, I can help you clean up the game a bit more. How 'bout if I share with you, all of my training skills, skills of those that have assisted me, and too, skills of others trainers I've raced against all these years, particularly those termed, "the super trainers"? You know me as candid, I'll give you all I know that goes on--not only legal, but the illegal use of medications, how these can be circumvented, vet's "best practices", track's "best practices", everyone from accupuncturists to grooms who put their hands on racehorses everyday, handshakes, agreements, testing, labs. In other words, all that goes into the conditioning of racehorses. . . .Sharpen your pencils, guys, every one of you in the game, top to bottom, from those running the show, to owners, to bettors. Your fun and your handicapping could have a shorter future.


Who knows,This could be another Velocci (spelling?) papers.The only horseman that will worry are the ones with something to hide.

[Hanover1]

Too, some folks don't see quite so much as black or white. There are mistakes, there are questions, there are consequences, there is good and there is bad. Some not as grievous as other. Most of us are capable of either on any given day.

Meantime, maybe Rick Dutrow can get a job on Wall Street to carry him the next ten years. Man, there's a windfall.

If I had to wonder further in any of the business of banning, it would be the question of why Patrick Biancone was only given such a short time removed from racing, while having been ruled from every other continent for his infractions? Now with a private training track? Another good move for horseracing? I'm not so sure, really.

I don't have the knowledge that you have Hanover1, so I'll back away from the dialogue. Some of your judgements stuck me as pretty much over the top. And this, sometimes, happens online.

No problem...My judgement that he brought this on himself is echoed by everyone, including his own brother. He has eroded the trust of the betting public, and I need not go into any more effort to explain how he did it, as many do not agree. End result here is, he has pissed in his last bowl of cornflakes for awhile, appeals notwithstanding. The show aint over just yet...and they have gone public letting us know the beard angle aint gonna fly either. Speculation of organized connections is only the beginning here as well. He only hurt his cause with the 70 violations.

[5k-claim]

Ten years suspension is too long, even for the political posturing and gain.

This is pandering in part to the same groups who support the Kentucky Horse Racing Commission in that incredibly wasteful pursuit of John Veitch.

I don't know much about the New York bunch, but I wouldn't trust some of the current Kentucky personnel to oversee a yard sale, much less hand out a 10-year suspension to someone.

.

[Hanover1]

Thinking on this a bit more -- From the above DRF piece it seems quite possible that a judge could understand and adamantly uphold this ruling. Rick Dutrow may well be out of poker chips this time around. It would not be surprising.

As noted in a NYTimes piece by Joe Drape, this man has earned 80 million in winnings for his owners in recent years. This is a helluva lot of bucks, even when one figures the trainer's cut of those earnings, all of which is in addition to his training income for all horses under his care in all of these years. In other words, this is an extremely wealthy man. A wealthy horse trainer.

It will cost him a lot of money in appeals and proceedings. He may have no recourse through his legal team, still, what's he going to do when he's already banned in Kentucky. Didn't apply for his license in New Jersey, so there's no license there. His right to train in Florida at Gulfstream for the coming winter is being contemplated, as this is typed.

Owners have already begun the process of removing horses from his care to other trainers.

This man is, no doubt, not only wealthy and loves what he does for a living, but too, he's smart. Knowledge being the power that it is, its even more powerful in the hands of one with money. Of course, this is a given. I'm not sure that Rick Dutrow and his defense team will go, quietly, into the night, or that Dutrow will go off to some place in the islands to work on his tan and to live out his coming 3 to 4 decades.

Horseracing has the worst, the most tainted, the most questionable image in all of sports. Its been watched, like a rabid dog, with disdain for years now. It can't agree on anything, therefore, the collective groups of swells in charge can't find their ass with their hands. Not a single one of them. Each, territorial, unable to see working in conjunction with each governing body, each jurisdiction as a better, positive direction. Yet, they'll have a meeting, sit on their hands and agree to meet again.

During Big Brown's run for the TC, this man, with his one voice speaking, got anabolic steroids banned did he not? It wasn't his original intent, still, I believe he achieved this for himself as well as other trainers.

Let's say, perhaps, Rick knows he's done. Out of his job, all that he knows as this IS what he's done and loved doing, all of his life. He has not a thing to lose at this point. His wheels, along with his defense team's, may already be turning. One may figure, no, no one will listen to this man. There's no credibility, there's no respect for a cheat. Its all sour grapes. Dutrow's screwed so he's gonna blow the whistle on the entire sport as it has functioned for many years. Good luck with this one, Rick.

If this man chooses, not all the comments from Ogden Mills Phipps and his Jockey Club, the New State Racing and Wagering Board, the commissions, trainers, owners, Triple Crowns and Breeders' Cups will help remove the nails he can hammer in the sport's coffin. As kind as man or beast can be, when one becomes ill, backed in a corner like a rabid dog, one doesn't know what they may be up against. Or the damage that can be incurred.

Food for thought: Should we have another hearing, a Congressional one that I can appear before? If so, gentlemen, since I was helpful in getting anabolic steroids removed from the sport, maybe before I exit, I can help you clean up the game a bit more. How 'bout if I share with you, all of my training skills, skills of those that have assisted me, and too, skills of others trainers I've raced against all these years, particularly those termed, "the super trainers"? You know me as candid, I'll give you all I know that goes on--not only legal, but the illegal use of medications, how these can be circumvented, vet's "best practices", track's "best practices", everyone from accupuncturists to grooms who put their hands on racehorses everyday, handshakes, agreements, testing, labs. In other words, all that goes into the conditioning of racehorses. . . .Sharpen your pencils, guys, every one of you in the game, top to bottom, from those running the show, to owners, to bettors. Your fun and your handicapping could have a shorter future.

Rick doesn't have anything new to say. He did have a hand in getting steroids banned, but it was by running his mouth, and not by some revalation backed by his personal hopes of saving the sport. An easy case when defending the notion that he has eroded the trust of the fan base, by admitting use of, a then legal, PED. Everybody involved with racing knows what goes into the conditioning of racehorses, and it is these guys that are bringing it to Dutrow. He has nothing to bargain with.

[matthewsiv]

How many trainers do not do what Dutrow has done?

[Hanover1]

Only shot he has is if he is holding some info/statements needed to go after other entities. We could be seeing some of this as a squeeze play. All speculation here of course......and he comes out victorious via appeals if he gives them what they want, of course.

[Hanover1]

How many trainers do not do what Dutrow has done?

Pure speculation. Better to ask how many trainers are unaware of what Dutrow has done?

[Hanover1]

TB Times reporting now/earlier that California will honor this ban barring injunction/stay/winning appeal. Noose tightening rapidly.

[llegend39]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2011/10/13/2011-10-13_rick_dutrow_back_in_the_winners_circle_as_peta_ applauds_decision_to_ban_top_hors.html

[PaceAdvantage]

Rick doesn't have anything new to say. He did have a hand in getting steroids banned, but it was by running his mouth, and not by some revalation backed by his personal hopes of saving the sport. An easy case when defending the notion that he has eroded the trust of the fan base, by admitting use of, a then legal, PED. Everybody involved with racing knows what goes into the conditioning of racehorses, and it is these guys that are bringing it to Dutrow. He has nothing to bargain with.How does one get into trouble "admitting" to using something that is LEGAL and WIDELY USED by most EVERY TRAINER in the game (at the time)?

I don't know why you continue to spout off like this, acting as if this LEGAL drug was used in some sort of SECRECY and NOBODY KNEW ABOUT IT!

EVERYONE who was paying any attention KNEW steroids were LEGALLY USED in the game (at that time). It was no secret.

Most everyone watching that telecast where Dutrow spoke about it KNEW IT...it was no revelation.

Maybe you can explain your thinking to me in more detail, so that I can better understand exactly what you are getting at...unless it was ALL A BIG SECRET, and I just didn't realize it... :confused:

[toussaud]

janetpattonhl Janet Patton
Dutrow gets 30-day stay to block revocation of his trainer's license while he challenges, so can continue to race in N.Y. #kyhorse

[PaceAdvantage]

As predicted...

http://www.drf.com/news/dutrow-granted-30-day-stay-license-revocation

SCHENECTADY, N.Y. – Richard Dutrow Jr., facing a 10-year revocation of his trainer’s license, was given a reprieve Monday morning when a New York State Supreme Court judge issued a 30-day stay of the New York State Racing and Wagering Board’s penalty handed down last week.

At the conclusion of a 30-minute hearing, Judge Richard Giardino issued the 30-day stay, saying he didn’t feel “it would undermine the integrity of the system to allow the stay.” Had the judge denied the stay, Dutrow would have been banned from the grounds of New York tracks beginning Tuesday.More at link.

[Hanover1]

How does one get into trouble "admitting" to using something that is LEGAL and WIDELY USED by most EVERY TRAINER in the game (at the time)?

I don't know why you continue to spout off like this, acting as if this LEGAL drug was used in some sort of SECRECY and NOBODY KNEW ABOUT IT!

EVERYONE who was paying any attention KNEW steroids were LEGALLY USED in the game (at that time). It was no secret.

Most everyone watching that telecast where Dutrow spoke about it KNEW IT...it was no revelation.

Maybe you can explain your thinking to me in more detail, so that I can better understand exactly what you are getting at...unless it was ALL A BIG SECRET, and I just didn't realize it... :confused:


Its not about legal vs illegal, never was. Its about public perception. How many folks are happy to hear about PEDs in any sport these days? In regards to what everybody knew who watched Dutrow live, that is pure speculation on anyones part. A steroid is defined as a PED, just as many would even say lasix was/is. Much more stigma attached to the word "steroid" however, and it is undeniable. No secret, never was. Just wasn't something we ever told the casual fan, especially when you have the largest audience possible. Don't know how one cannot understand that his whole discussion was full of "I don't know what it does" "But my whole barn uses it" combined with the stigma attached to PEDs in general, all of them, served the sport how? Attracting/retaining/fans, instilling trust in any fan base should not involve admitting to using PEDs on everything in the barn. Legal or not. How can this be made any clearer to you? PED PED PED. It was a bad move, and we discussed this before, and somehow missed the boat. Yet all the horsemen I spoke with gave the same head shake, so it is us that missed the boat? No it is not the premier reason he is on the coals, far from it, however it left no question in anybodys mind I spoke with as to his future prospects, having a good grasp of his situation for years as it were. His big mouth, on a sensitive subject, is what we have.

[PaceAdvantage]

There is just something very unseemly about what you just wrote. The notion that Dutrow somehow crossed some "code of silence" with his fellow trainers...talking about a legal, widely used medication in public...

I know we had this discussion before...but let me just emphasize one point.

You (and I suppose these fellow trainers you talk to) have consistently lit into Dutrow for his public comments during the Triple Crown...that this somehow had some sort of massive impact with the great unwashed masses who were heretofore unaware that horse racing wasn't 100% legit...that it suddenly opened the eyes of blissfully ignorant sports writers and racing officials.... :lol:

Come on man...horseracing, even before Dutrow ever went on TV, has one of the lowest "trust" ratings in all of sport among casual fans. A great majority of them already thought the game was fixed on some level. It's been a common theme for decades...they write books about it...make movies about it...

But Dutrow, going on TV and talking about Winstrol...that's what broke the camel's back? I don't buy it...never will...

[nijinski]

Remember this from the NY Times Feb 2007 , Finley.







''I don't give them to all my horses, but it helps certain ones,'' said a top trainer, Bob Baffert, who is against the proposed ban. ''If they've been sick or something, it helps them recover faster. Steroids do not affect horses like they affect baseball players. It doesn't make them put up mounds of muscles.

''People complain that we don't run our horses enough. If they get rid of steroids, you'll see them run even less often. If a horse has been racing hard or is dull, the steroids help recharge their batteries. They don't make horses run faster.''

[Hanover1]

There is just something very unseemly about what you just wrote. The notion that Dutrow somehow crossed some "code of silence" with his fellow trainers...talking about a legal, widely used medication in public...

I know we had this discussion before...but let me just emphasize one point.

You (and I suppose these fellow trainers you talk to) have consistently lit into Dutrow for his public comments during the Triple Crown...that this somehow had some sort of massive impact with the great unwashed masses who were heretofore unaware that horse racing wasn't 100% legit...that it suddenly opened the eyes of blissfully ignorant sports writers and racing officials.... :lol:

Come on man...horseracing, even before Dutrow ever went on TV, has one of the lowest "trust" ratings in all of sport among casual fans. A great majority of them already thought the game was fixed on some level. It's been a common theme for decades...they write books about it...make movies about it...

But Dutrow, going on TV and talking about Winstrol...that's what broke the camel's back? I don't buy it...never will...


You think horsemen don't know what they are up against reputation wise?? Really? And you believe I am unaware of the rotten reputation it has had for decades? Hell, CJ just posted the other day "...and I trust trainers even less". Not blind here, and you still think it was a good idea to mouth off about using PEDs on all his stock? Those of us that are aware of how rotten we are perceived did not take kindly to him spouting off about using ANYTHING on his horses, most of all PEDs, legal or not. And I have repeatedly said that it is not the straw that broke the camels back, but nobody buys into the notion that it did no harm, except you I guess, and I have no problem with that. End of trying on this one for me.....

[Hanover1]

Remember this from the NY Times Feb 2007 , Finley.







''I don't give them to all my horses, but it helps certain ones,'' said a top trainer, Bob Baffert, who is against the proposed ban. ''If they've been sick or something, it helps them recover faster. Steroids do not affect horses like they affect baseball players. It doesn't make them put up mounds of muscles.

''People complain that we don't run our horses enough. If they get rid of steroids, you'll see them run even less often. If a horse has been racing hard or is dull, the steroids help recharge their batteries. They don't make horses run faster.''


I like Bob, but many know he "embellished" a tad here.

[toussaud]

this is really a joke this stay. I mean, from a handicapping perspective, exactly what incentive does Dutrow have to not cheat? he knows it just's a matter of time. so now you have to handicap all these dutrow horses running out of their skin

[cj]

If he really thought it was just a matter of time, I doubt he would spend all the money the defense is costing him just to cheat a little while longer. I also doubt he would be dumb enough to cheat with all eyes on him. Of course, I could be wrong.

[jeebus1083]

this is really a joke this stay. I mean, from a handicapping perspective, exactly what incentive does Dutrow have to not cheat? he knows it just's a matter of time. so now you have to handicap all these dutrow horses running out of their skin

Or NYRA can invoke private property rights and rule him off the grounds, pending the exhaustion of all appeals... just because he is still licensed doesn't mean that they have to let him have stalls, let alone race.

[lamboguy]

Or NYRA can invoke private property rights and rule him off the grounds, pending the exhaustion of all appeals... just because he is still licensed doesn't mean that they have to let him have stalls, let alone race.
why would NYRA want to throw Dutrow out?

[jeebus1083]

why would NYRA want to throw Dutrow out?

To protect its interests. To allow Dutrow to race at NYRA tracks is the equivalent of having someone wearing a scarlet letter around. Of course, NYRA is respecting the court's decision, and allowing Dutrow to earn a livelihood, but I wouldn't blame NYRA in the least if they thought for a moment that letting Dutrow train while in limbo was bad publicity for their business and horse racing in general. In truth, it is.

Dutrow was declared "guilty" by the State Racing and Wagering Board, and he's now letting the appeals process play itself out. One person I know of suggested that Dutrow horses should be declared "non-starters" for pari-mutuel purposes, running strictly for purse money only. I asked why, and he begged the question: "is he still practicing his profession on 16-1 shots?" alluding to the fact that 1) he suspects that Dutrow is a cheat, and 2) if his appeals get denied, he's got nothing to lose by bending the rules to the highest degree. Squeeze the lemon dry, and collect as many wins and purses as possible before it's all gone.

People will think what they want, and you can't change that. What people can do, is change their gambling habits. If you really feel that Dutrow is a cheat, don't bet races he runs in. Nobody's putting a gun to a bettor's head. If you do feel that Dutrow is a cheat and still decide to bet, remember that racing is entertainment, and that it's called gambling for a reason. The horsemen are out there first to earn a living, and if it wasn't for the gambling aspect, really wouldn't give a crap about "putting forward effort" to give fans an honest run for their money.

[nijinski]

To protect its interests. To allow Dutrow to race at NYRA tracks is the equivalent of having someone wearing a scarlet letter around. Of course, NYRA is respecting the court's decision, and allowing Dutrow to earn a livelihood, but I wouldn't blame NYRA in the least if they thought for a moment that letting Dutrow train while in limbo was bad publicity for their business and horse racing in general. In truth, it is.

Dutrow was declared "guilty" by the State Racing and Wagering Board, and he's now letting the appeals process play itself out. One person I know of suggested that Dutrow horses should be declared "non-starters" for pari-mutuel purposes, running strictly for purse money only. I asked why, and he begged the question: "is he still practicing his profession on 16-1 shots?" alluding to the fact that 1) he suspects that Dutrow is a cheat, and 2) if his appeals get denied, he's got nothing to lose by bending the rules to the highest degree. Squeeze the lemon dry, and collect as many wins and purses as possible before it's all gone.

People will think what they want, and you can't change that. What people can do, is change their gambling habits. If you really feel that Dutrow is a cheat, don't bet races he runs in. Nobody's putting a gun to a bettor's head. If you do feel that Dutrow is a cheat and still decide to bet, remember that racing is entertainment, and that it's called gambling for a reason. The horsemen are out there first to earn a living, and if it wasn't for the gambling aspect, really wouldn't give a crap about "putting forward effort" to give fans an honest run for their money.

You do realise that many of his violations over the years were administrative.
I hope you are also familiar with the RMTC , The recent rulings site . have a look for yourself Dutrow's name hasn't been listed for a while. but there's a
good deal of other names there , so enjoy.


Koenig , his lawyer has one thing right . There seems to be a strong conflict of interest going in this case. Seems to be between the two political egos Martin and Sabini.

[toussaud]

great gracey dane looked like freaking big brown at 6 to 1

[jeebus1083]

You do realise that many of his violations over the years were administrative.
I hope you are also familiar with the RMTC , The recent rulings site . have a look for yourself Dutrow's name hasn't been listed for a while. but there's a
good deal of other names there , so enjoy.

Right, but the name "Dutrow" in the minds of some players has become synonymous with "dirty", whether it is a concrete fact or not. Once that has been planted in the subconscious, it's pretty hard to turn face. Racing's fan base keeps eroding; in part, the perception/fact that certain trainers play "dirty" and in part, the (oft-negative) media attention surrounding it as such.

[nijinski]

Right, but the name "Dutrow" in the minds of some players has become synonymous with "dirty", whether it is a concrete fact or not. Once that has been planted in the subconscious, it's pretty hard to turn face. Racing's fan base keeps eroding; in part, the perception/fact that certain trainers play "dirty" and in part, the (oft-negative) media attention surrounding it as such.

We can go in circles with this . Bottom line is for me that he has served and
paid his fines the old infractions. I'm very suspicious about the newer ones ,
particularly one that occured while he wasn't even on the grounds.
Dutrow needed to get major organization , his sloppiness is what hurt him
more than anything else ,no doubt about that. I'm not buying that he is "doping" his horses .
Dr Larry Bramlage gave a very positive account for his case of how well his horses are cared for and how proactive he is when issues arise ,more so than many other trainers according to him . For me that's huge. Dutrow has also been a generous supporter through purse percentage donation of a New York horse retirement program .
Lets let everyone slide and focus on one just one person and find a way to take him down and make an example of him. Tht's what this is about imo.

[andtheyreoff]

The ruling is severe only in that he is "the first to go." Truth be told, any number of trainers around the country deserve this kind of punishment or worse.

Here's how I see this going down:

Dutrow hires a good lawyer. Appeals this decision. Files a lawsuit in civil court and has an injunction granted that allows him to continue training while all these appeals and lawsuits are ongoing. This could take years.



Unfortuantely, you have been proven correct: http://www.drf.com/news/dutrow-receives-indefinite-stay-suspension

[lamboguy]

this whole suspension is a hatchet job to begin with. i highly doubt that if carmine d'onoforio was still on this board they would have never handed him a rediculous sentence.

in my opinion, the board should give itself a 10 year suspension for impersonate sargeant schultz,

[cj]

this whole suspension is a hatchet job to begin with. i highly doubt that if carmine d'onoforio was still on this board they would have never handed him a rediculous sentence.

in my opinion, the board should give itself a 10 year suspension for impersonate sargeant schultz,

How many positives should Dutrow be allowed? How many times should he be able to laugh at the authorities? Just curious what life would be like at the track if lamboguy was running things.

[lamboguy]

How many positives should Dutrow be allowed? How many times should he be able to laugh at the authorities? Just curious what life would be like at the track if lamboguy was running things.
i wouldn't allow drugs period.

as far as his positives go, i would like to know how many of them he got for illegal substances. and compare that number to other trainers that have had multiple illegal substances that never got 10 years.

[cj]

i wouldn't allow drugs period.

as far as his positives go, i would like to know how many of them he got for illegal substances. and compare that number to other trainers that have had multiple illegal substances that never got 10 years.

Somebody has to be the first to get a real punishment, right? Why not him? Why the soft spot for a guy that has done nothing for the game other than line his own pockets?

[lamboguy]

then give it to 5 people at once if they want to show that they mean business.
pletcher got caught with illegal substance and he got 6 months.

how can you even dream of preventing a guy from making a living with most of those violations that they want to suspend him for. 10 years is a bit much. 3 years would have served the purpose and he probably would not have been in a fight about it.

[cj]

then give it to 5 people at once if they want to show that they mean business.
pletcher got caught with illegal substance and he got 6 months.

how can you even dream of preventing a guy from making a living with most of those violations that they want to suspend him for. 10 years is a bit much. 3 years would have served the purpose and he probably would not have been in a fight about it.

Pletcher doesn't have nearly the laundry list of violations that Dutrow has. He also didn't get caught training when he was suspended like Dutrow did. Surely you don't think he would have taken a three year suspension without a fight.

[lamboguy]

he got thrown out for 10 years because he made a profane gesture with his hands at one of those guys on the board and opened his mouth up to him in an unkind manor. he disrespected the authority and ignored the order, so he does deserve a larger than usual suspension, not 10 years.

by giving this man this type of sentence he has nothing to lose by putting on a good fight that he could possibly have sound legal grounds to stand on in this matter. by giving him this type of a suspension could indeed have an opposite effect on others than what the board intended in the first place.

the board simply over-stepped there authority in giving him this large a sentence.

[cj]

the board simply over-stepped there authority in giving him this large a sentence.

Time will tell.

[lamboguy]

the 8th race at c-town, the 6 must have been on the right part of the track her last race. do u have that as with the bias?

[lamboguy]

she just loves the slop!

[cj]

Sorry, was away, but yes, I had her as running with a speed bias that day. Probably should save that for another thread though, too much thread drift there.

[lamboguy]

i was just wondering because i had her as a $1.00-1.30 chance and she went off even money, and i thought you were paying attention to my stupid posts on this thread about dutrow

[cj]

i was just wondering because i had her as a $1.00-1.30 chance and she went off even money, and i thought you were paying attention to my stupid posts on this thread about dutrow

I was, but then I went to watch golf.

[lamboguy]

I was, but then I went to watch golf.
i don't blame you!

[nijinski]

Can we say Redeemed. 3 for 3 today , so I'm hearing.

[Vinman]

With all arrows pointing to wrongdoing by "supertrainer" Lou Pena, I would like to know why Yonkers Raceway was finally able to take the right path and send him packing last summer "because they felt like it", without the benefit of "absolute proof" and an official ban handed down by the State of New York, whereas the 10 year license revocation against Rick Dutrow does not appear to be worth the paper it's written on.

Why can't/won't NYRA take away his stalls right now and ban him from the NYRA grounds, a la Yonkers with Pena, based on Dutrow's long, ugly history of supremely documented offenses.

Anyone?

Vinman

[Tom]

No balls?

[PaceAdvantage]

Why can't/won't NYRA take away his stalls right now and ban him from the NYRA grounds, a la Yonkers with Pena, based on Dutrow's long, ugly history of supremely documented offenses.

Anyone?

VinmanJust to play Devil's Advocate, I might take exception with your characterization of "long, ugly history of supremely documented offenses." First off, the majority of those offenses are for "paperwork" and other administrative foibles, correct?

Perhaps you can tell me the actual number of "illegal drug" violations Dutrow's had, what types of drugs these were, and how he compares to other trainers of similar stable size. Then perhaps we can answer your question.

[Tom]

On November 3, they found unlabeled syringes in his barn at Aqueduct containing the drug xyzaline and 17 days later a horse he trained tested positive for butorphanol. According to the New York State Racing and Wagering Board, butorphanol is 10 times more potent than morphine.

http://espn.go.com/horse-racing/story/_/id/7096211/dutrow-ruling-sends-message

If those two incidents alone were 100% of it, that is more than enough for me. And it goes for any other trainers as well.

The official ruling:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=dutrow%20drug%20violations&source=web&cd=8&ved=0CEoQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.racing.state.ny.us%2Fpdf%2F10 121115032310.12.11.rel.Dutrow.pdf&ei=IGjQTp3FOOLj0gGO4-x5&usg=AFQjCNGQoqpNOmUNgPLj****eZYLAu3_cg&cad=rja

[PaceAdvantage]

http://espn.go.com/horse-racing/story/_/id/7096211/dutrow-ruling-sends-message

If those two incidents alone were 100% of it, that is more than enough for me. And it goes for any other trainers as well.

The official ruling:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=dutrow%20drug%20violations&source=web&cd=8&ved=0CEoQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.racing.state.ny.us%2Fpdf%2F10 121115032310.12.11.rel.Dutrow.pdf&ei=IGjQTp3FOOLj0gGO4-x5&usg=AFQjCNGQoqpNOmUNgPLj****eZYLAu3_cg&cad=rjaGood point. He's in a mess of trouble of his own making and rightfully so.

[Canarsie]

Good point. He's in a mess of trouble of his own making and rightfully so.


When I was hitchhiking around the country around 1970 we were picked up by an ex con in Oklahoma and he told me something that's never been forgotten.

"The easiest thing to do is rob a bank and the easiest way to get caught is to do it with someone".

Looks like Mr. Dutrow's accomplice was pretty sloppy.

[Stillriledup]

This guy is still training horses? I see he has 4 in on Weds.

[tzipi]

This guy is still training horses? I see he has 4 in on Weds.

I think he's training those 4 horses and his former jockey Rudy Rodriquez's horses. :D

[Midnight Cruiser]

So Ive gone thru this thread rather quickly but must ask-how is Dutrow allowed to enter horses at Aquaduct today if he has been hit with a 10 year ban? Appeal process? Overturned?

[JustRalph]

So Ive gone thru this thread rather quickly but must ask-how is Dutrow allowed to enter horses at Aquaduct today if he has been hit with a 10 year ban? Appeal process? Overturned?

Do a google. He is stil in court last I read a few weeks back. But he is comng to the end of the line.

If I recall correctly, the last ruling was pretty harshly worded. But he s still going up the ladder in court

[Stillriledup]

Do a google. He is stil in court last I read a few weeks back. But he is comng to the end of the line.

If I recall correctly, the last ruling was pretty harshly worded. But he s still going up the ladder in court

I dont understand why a ban isnt a ban? Instead of kicking him out for his training (which seems to be able to be run thru the courts for years), can't they just kick him out for trespassing? Someone says "get off my property" dont you have to get off?

Maybe one of our resident lawyers here can explain this to the layman.

[Stillriledup]

Wonder what "Babe" is doing these days and how he's making a living.

Someone named Sydney Dutrow has a starter in today's 10th at Belmont, which made me think of "The Babe".

Hope he's doing well in his other occupation.

[Trips]

Sydney (Chip) is the younger Dutrow brother. Talented horseman in his own right.

[Stillriledup]

Sydney (Chip) is the younger Dutrow brother. Talented horseman in his own right.

They're all talented, every last one of them.

[Stillriledup]

So it's been about 3 years now that babe has been removed from the sport, anyone know of his whereabouts and what he's up to these days?

[lamboguy]

i have heard that he has not exhausted his legal remedies. one thing for sure, his operation has not been the same since he has not been on the track. his clients have been very loyal to him though, most of them have not gone anywhere else since he has been barred from the track.

[EMD4ME]

So it's been about 3 years now that babe has been removed from the sport, anyone know of his whereabouts and what he's up to these days?

Didn't he have a sex change? (At least from a license perspective :lol: )

[Donttellmeshowme]

so he has to be running under somebody? Who?

[gheuks]

Michelle nevin I believe

[onefast99]

i have heard that he has not exhausted his legal remedies. one thing for sure, his operation has not been the same since he has not been on the track. his clients have been very loyal to him though, most of them have not gone anywhere else since he has been barred from the track.from the paulik report 1-17-2013
The Daily Racing Form's David Grening is reporting that suspended trainer Rick Dutrow has formally transferred his horses into the care of others in Florida and New York. In New York, Wesley Ward took over about 42 horses, while six others owned by Paul Pompa moved to different barns, including that of Rudy Rodriguez. In Florida, Michelle Nevin, former assistant and girlfriend of Dutrow, passed her trainer's test Wednesday according to Gulfstream management, and has been given 20 stalls at the track. Multiple graded stakes winner Teaks North is among the horses now in Nevin's care.

The suspension order states that Dutrow is banned from “any arrangements made to care for, train, enter, race, invoice, collect fees or payments, manage funds, employ or insure workers, provide advice or information, or otherwise assist with any aspect of training of the horse.”

[Saratoga_Mike]

Pompa left the next day.

Unless they stopped owning horses, all of his owners have left, not sure what Lambo is conveying. Most landed with his brother, Rudy R or Michelle Nevin, I believe. Pompa with Pletcher?

[onefast99]

Unless they stopped owning horses, all of his owners have left, not sure what Lambo is conveying. Most landed with his brother, Rudy R or Michelle Nevin, I believe. Pompa with Pletcher?He went to Joe Orseno, Patrick Reynolds and a few others. He has used Reynolds a lot in the past.

[reckless]

He went to Joe Orseno, Patrick Reynolds and a few others. He has used Reynolds a lot in the past.

Patrick Reynolds was Big Brown's first trainer.

[Stillriledup]

Didn't he have a sex change? (At least from a license perspective :lol: )

I would assume the people who suspended him aren't looking the other way and that they're making sure he has zero contact with the racing industry. If he's still in the game training under an assumed name, than he's really not suspended. he must be getting income from somewhere, you would imagine somebody knows if he's getting racing related income or not.

[SuperPickle]

I would assume the people who suspended him aren't looking the other way and that they're making sure he has zero contact with the racing industry. If he's still in the game training under an assumed name, than he's really not suspended. he must be getting income from somewhere, you would imagine somebody knows if he's getting racing related income or not.

I believe the issue is Nevin and he are or either were dating. So its kind of hard to prove his involvement via communication.

You'll note she trains horses for Jay Em Ess and Vincent Scuderi who are both long-term Dutrow clients. I would peg about half her horses are former Dutrow clients.

Pompa has horses with Reynolds, Peltcher and Chad Brown among others.

[onefast99]

Patrick Reynolds was Big Brown's first trainer.He is good friends with Patrick. He had many with him before he bought Big Brown he started with him in 2003.

[Stillriledup]

I believe the issue is Nevin and he are or either were dating. So its kind of hard to prove his involvement via communication.

You'll note she trains horses for Jay Em Ess and Vincent Scuderi who are both long-term Dutrow clients. I would peg about half her horses are former Dutrow clients.

Pompa has horses with Reynolds, Peltcher and Chad Brown among others.

It wouldn't be hard to prove it, they can just ask him for a cellphone bill or a paystub from his current employer, they can get him (or her) if their life depended on it, but it seems that maybe they're looking the other way? You know, as long as the gullible public thinks he has zero contact with the industry.

[SuperPickle]

It wouldn't be hard to prove it, they can just ask him for a cellphone bill or a paystub from his current employer, they can get him (or her) if their life depended on it, but it seems that maybe they're looking the other way? You know, as long as the gullible public thinks he has zero contact with the industry.

I think you're confusing "lack of effort with "due process."

You can say a lot of things about the Dutrow case but you can't say they didn't go after him hard when they decided it was time. Should it have been done sooner? Yes. But when they went him they went hard. Multiple agencies, lots of people and he got ten years. He's already been on the sidelines longer than anyone else in a while.

The reality is both Nevin and Anthony have rights. They have the right to trainer horses. They have the right to talk to their boyfriend or brother.

[Saratoga_Mike]

It wouldn't be hard to prove it, they can just ask him for a cellphone bill or a paystub from his current employer, they can get him (or her) if their life depended on it, but it seems that maybe they're looking the other way? You know, as long as the gullible public thinks he has zero contact with the industry.

Paystub? In the past 10 yrs, the horses he trained earned roughly $65 million. That's $6.5 mm for Dutrow. We'll call it $3.5 mm after-taxes. In addition, he most likely received stallion shares in Big Brown, Saint Liam and others. He probably sold those off, resulting another substantial amount of money. I doubt he needs to work for anyone.

[Stillriledup]

I think you're confusing "lack of effort with "due process."

You can say a lot of things about the Dutrow case but you can't say they didn't go after him hard when they decided it was time. Should it have been done sooner? Yes. But when they went him they went hard. Multiple agencies, lots of people and he got ten years. He's already been on the sidelines longer than anyone else in a while.

The reality is both Nevin and Anthony have rights. They have the right to trainer horses. They have the right to talk to their boyfriend or brother.

And the racing commission has the right to toss them out too if they want to.

[SuperPickle]

And the racing commission has the right to toss them out too if they want to.

Not really. I mean they can theoretically do anything they want but we all know the appeals process for any racing infraction sooner or later leaves the commissions and goes into federal court or state court. We also all know racing loses about 99% of these cases. Judges and juries simply don't understand horse racing so at the end of the day racing loses almost every time. I'm still floored Dutrow hasn't found a court to give him his license.

I think you're aware that any trainer or jockey can find a court to stay almost any fine or suspension if they look hard enough.

[onefast99]

Not really. I mean they can theoretically do anything they want but we all know the appeals process for any racing infraction sooner or later leaves the commissions and goes into federal court or state court. We also all know racing loses about 99% of these cases. Judges and juries simply don't understand horse racing so at the end of the day racing loses almost every time. I'm still floored Dutrow hasn't found a court to give him his license.

I think you're aware that any trainer or jockey can find a court to stay almost any fine or suspension if they look hard enough.Most tracks if not all have the right to keep anyone they feel is detrimental to their business off the premises. I would love to see where you arrived at the 99% of these types of cases are appealed and won, there are lots more than you think that don't garner front page coverage. The racing commission goes by the rules of that particular jurisdiction if someone breaks those rules they are either warned, suspended or given a period of time they cannot do business in that jurisdiction. Dutrow will never find a court that would support any of the things he did, NYRA has been cleaning up the game big time over the past 2 years. No one wants cheaters and abusers in this game.

[SuperPickle]

Most tracks if not all have the right to keep anyone they feel is detrimental to their business off the premises.

Not in NY and CA the two biggest states in the industry. In fact I'm not aware of anyone being ruled off in recent memory in NY, CA or KY? Biancone cut a deal in which he took a suspension, agreed not to apply for a license and left the state. Where did he go? Oh California.

Yeah if I own a small harness track or a second tier thoroughbred track exclusion can be some what effective. But name me anyone currently excluded in NY, So Cal or Kentucky? There's no one.

Btw... while my 99% was an overstatement it's directionally correct. Name another high profile case other than this one where a court system back up a commission. Also feel to ask any equine lawyer like Drew Mollica what are the odds of a court granting a stay to jockey or trainer facing a commission suspension. I'm confident he would say at least 80% percent.

[rastajenk]

It seems like you two are talking past one another about similar but distinctively different situations. A track can eject whoever it wants without affecting that person's status as a licensee. The commission can revoke or deny a license, materially affecting that person's ability to make a living in a racing capacity. The latter is guided by principles of due process; the former can be nothing more explicit than "a management decision."

[SuperPickle]

I was trying to make the point exclusion is not a cure all. In fact it's rarely effect and often not an option.

The statement the other poster made was "most if not all track can exclude" people they don't want. This is NOT True.

Here are some examples of exclusion...

Tampa Bay Down is privately owned. They were able to successfully exclude Jane Cibelli last meet because of this. Exclusion worked.

Delaware Park is also privately owned. They tried to exclude Juan Vasquez last meet. They were unable to do so. Even though they are privately owned they take money from the state of Delaware through slot subsidies. Therefore anyone who is licensed to race by the state has a right to compete for this money since it is technically the state's funding. So while they were unable to bar him from racing there they were able to bar him from stabling there since it is private property.

Penn National and Parx had the same issue with Burton Sipp in the 90's where the state forced them to let him enter and claim horses but he could not have stalls...

http://articles.philly.com/1993-07-28/news/25975920_1_park-and-penn-national-horse-trainer-criminal-charges

In addition NYRA can not exclude people because the track is owned by the state. That's why they fought for years for the commission to not give Jacobson a license because once he had it they had to let him race. Meadowlands and Monmouth could not exclude people when the NJSEA owned and operated them. They can now. Gural has thrown out some people. I'm not aware of Monmouth doing it.

So in short being privately owned does not mean you can exclude people. Depending on the state and their operating agreement with the state if they take money from the state they might be forced to let those licensed by the state race. Because more and more tracks rely on money coming from non-racing sources tracks are losing a lot of their autonomy in how they operate.

In a perfect world purses would all come from what goes through the windows and the tracks could pick and choose who got to compete. But now they take a lot of money from a lot of other places that comes with a lot of strings.

Exclusion is not a solution to keep bad guys out.
i

[rastajenk]

Excellent points. Especially your first sentence and the summary.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Respected racing writer John Pricci's articles from May of this year on the Rick Dutrow case.

Part 1
http://www.horseraceinsider.com/HRI-Feature/comments/05282015-rick-dutrow-case-revisited/

Part 2
http://www.horseraceinsider.com/HRI-Feature/comments/05292015-racing-wagering-board-v-rick-dutrow-nightmare-from-the-start1/

I haven't looked at trainers ruled off tracks without an accompanying suspension, but in doing research for another article, I found that Charles Town refused to take entries from Julio Cartagena (now serving a suspension for nikethamide) and his daughter in 2008. His license was not suspended by West Virginia, and he was able to enter horses (whether or not this was legal) by running them under the different trainer's name. So he was essentially ruled off the track without being specifically ruled off the track. Cartagena was also ruled off the Florida tracks by the Florida Racing Commission through the use of a consent decree. I know trainers that have been ruled off the track after medication/drug positives but before they were convicted. So it may be the case that some jurisdictions can't arbitrarily rule a trainer off the track, but there may be ways to accomplish it.

The vast majority of Commission cases in every jurisdiction are plea bargained before a hearing is held. Most jurisdictions, like New York, will offer a trainer a deal that will give him a much smaller penalty in return for a guilty plea. In the case of a medication/drug positive, it is rare for a trainer not to take the plea bargain, especially since there are less than a handful of absolute insurer cases that went to court and were not won by the Commission. Commissions do pretty well in getting the last word.

[SuperPickle]

Respected racing writer John Pricci's articles from May of this year on the Rick Dutrow case.

Part 1
http://www.horseraceinsider.com/HRI-Feature/comments/05282015-rick-dutrow-case-revisited/

Part 2
http://www.horseraceinsider.com/HRI-Feature/comments/05292015-racing-wagering-board-v-rick-dutrow-nightmare-from-the-start1/

I haven't looked at trainers ruled off tracks without an accompanying suspension, but in doing research for another article, I found that Charles Town refused to take entries from Julio Cartagena (now serving a suspension for nikethamide) and his daughter in 2008. His license was not suspended by West Virginia, and he was able to enter horses (whether or not this was legal) by running them under the different trainer's name. So he was essentially ruled off the track without being specifically ruled off the track. Cartagena was also ruled off the Florida tracks by the Florida Racing Commission through the use of a consent decree. I know trainers that have been ruled off the track after medication/drug positives but before they were convicted. So it may be the case that some jurisdictions can't arbitrarily rule a trainer off the track, but there may be ways to accomplish it.

The vast majority of Commission cases in every jurisdiction are plea bargained before a hearing is held. Most jurisdictions, like New York, will offer a trainer a deal that will give him a much smaller penalty in return for a guilty plea. In the case of a medication/drug positive, it is rare for a trainer not to take the plea bargain, especially since there are less than a handful of absolute insurer cases that went to court and were not won by the Commission. Commissions do pretty well in getting the last word.


Honestly commissions do good work when they can. The deck is stacked against them but they do what they can.

I've always said if you want to clean up the sport then you support Biancone having a license. He's got a barn of 5-10 horses that almost no one else wants. His owners have abandoned him and it appears most good owners want nothing to do with him. I think its great that the whole backside has to watch him train 5-10 slow horses. It sends the message of "this is what happens when you get caught." I'd love to see him run one 40-1 shot in a Maiden $20K every week just as reminder.

I'm personally annoyed that a bunch of Durrow's owners continue to support his former assistants. It's got bad optics.

[cj]

Respected racing writer John Pricci's articles from May of this year on the Rick Dutrow case.

Part 1
http://www.horseraceinsider.com/HRI-Feature/comments/05282015-rick-dutrow-case-revisited/

Part 2
http://www.horseraceinsider.com/HRI-Feature/comments/05292015-racing-wagering-board-v-rick-dutrow-nightmare-from-the-start1/

I haven't looked at trainers ruled off tracks without an accompanying suspension, but in doing research for another article, I found that Charles Town refused to take entries from Julio Cartagena (now serving a suspension for nikethamide) and his daughter in 2008. His license was not suspended by West Virginia, and he was able to enter horses (whether or not this was legal) by running them under the different trainer's name. So he was essentially ruled off the track without being specifically ruled off the track. Cartagena was also ruled off the Florida tracks by the Florida Racing Commission through the use of a consent decree. I know trainers that have been ruled off the track after medication/drug positives but before they were convicted. So it may be the case that some jurisdictions can't arbitrarily rule a trainer off the track, but there may be ways to accomplish it.

The vast majority of Commission cases in every jurisdiction are plea bargained before a hearing is held. Most jurisdictions, like New York, will offer a trainer a deal that will give him a much smaller penalty in return for a guilty plea. In the case of a medication/drug positive, it is rare for a trainer not to take the plea bargain, especially since there are less than a handful of absolute insurer cases that went to court and were not won by the Commission. Commissions do pretty well in getting the last word.

Cartagena should be in prison, not just banned.

[Stillriledup]

Honestly commissions do good work when they can. The deck is stacked against them but they do what they can.

I've always said if you want to clean up the sport then you support Biancone having a license. He's got a barn of 5-10 horses that almost no one else wants. His owners have abandoned him and it appears most good owners want nothing to do with him. I think its great that the whole backside has to watch him train 5-10 slow horses. It sends the message of "this is what happens when you get caught." I'd love to see him run one 40-1 shot in a Maiden $20K every week just as reminder.

I'm personally annoyed that a bunch of Durrow's owners continue to support his former assistants. It's got bad optics.

Good post Pickle.

There needs to be punishments to owners who support the bad apples of the game. Owners need to acquire 'demerits' when their trainer cheats, accrue enough demerits and some kind of punishment is levied, I'm thinking its not rocket science.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Cartagena should be in prison, not just banned.

I think you'd get a lot of support for that idea.

[nijinski]

The biggest case of lynching or use of a scapegoat in as far as I've followed the sport..
Dutrow. had a history of keeping lazy or sloppy records . He was not a cheater and his horses were in great condition . He opened his mouth on the use of steroids when it was in fact legal . Baffert was another who admitted . Most others hid that fact . Many used it but wimped out in public.

He does not have a history of using illegal enhancements or running broken down horses who's next stop is the slaughter auction .
Despite the most respected Vet in the business speaking on the good care his horses received ....the haters won out .
Enough time was served IMO , there a lot worse out there.

[SuperPickle]

The biggest case of lynching or use of a scapegoat in as far as I've followed the sport..
Dutrow. had a history of keeping lazy or sloppy records . He was not a cheater and his horses were in great condition . He opened his mouth on the use of steroids when it was in fact legal . Baffert was another who admitted . Most others hid that fact . Many used it but wimped out in public.

He does not have a history of using illegal enhancements or running broken down horses who's next stop is the slaughter auction .
Despite the most respected Vet in the business speaking on the good care his horses received ....the haters won out .
Enough time was served IMO , there a lot worse out there.


This post is literally the biggest piece of crap on this board and that's saying a lot.

First, all you Dutrow apologists frame it like he only has procedural violations. Like it's all late to the paddock and foal paper b.s. It's not he has multiple medication violations.

But let's ignore that for a second.

Richard Dutrow Jr. was a central figure in using fraud to win Canada's biggest horse race. He really trained a horse raced under another person's name (Bobby Frankel.) He lied on paperwork about both the horse's health and works. He also lied about where he was stabled and filled out paperwork claiming he was a different horse. He and Daniel Borislow cashed huge. And let's not forget that Rudy Rod was the guy who actually saddled him that day in Toronto. So add him to the mix.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-21335.html

That's multi-state and international fraud to win over a million dollars in a betting contest. There's people in federal prison for far less.

Nice try

[westny]

The biggest case of lynching or use of a scapegoat in as far as I've followed the sport..
Dutrow. had a history of keeping lazy or sloppy records . He was not a cheater and his horses were in great condition . He opened his mouth on the use of steroids when it was in fact legal . Baffert was another who admitted . Most others hid that fact . Many used it but wimped out in public.

He does not have a history of using illegal enhancements or running broken down horses who's next stop is the slaughter auction .
Despite the most respected Vet in the business speaking on the good care his horses received ....the haters won out .
Enough time was served IMO , there a lot worse out there.


Speaking of a lot worse...no contest :rolleyes:


he New York stewards have disqualified Box Office from his first-place finish in the fourth race Dec. 4 at Aqueduct and fined that horse’s owner-trainer Diane Balsamo, as well as trainer David Jacobson, for failure to disclose that Jacobson, who also ran a horse in that race, had a hidden financial interest in Box Office.
Winning horse paid $27.00+





http://www.drf.com/news/preview/balsamo-jacobson-fined-hidden-financial-interest

[cj]

Speaking of a lot worse...no contest :rolleyes:


he New York stewards have disqualified Box Office from his first-place finish in the fourth race Dec. 4 at Aqueduct and fined that horse’s owner-trainer Diane Balsamo, as well as trainer David Jacobson, for failure to disclose that Jacobson, who also ran a horse in that race, had a hidden financial interest in Box Office.
Winning horse paid $27.00+





http://www.drf.com/news/preview/balsamo-jacobson-fined-hidden-financial-interest

I have no idea why any track would want a guy like Jacobson on the grounds.

[thaskalos]

I have no idea why any track would want a guy like Jacobson on the grounds.
Don't let Pandy hear you say that. :)

[Stillriledup]

Speaking of a lot worse...no contest :rolleyes:


he New York stewards have disqualified Box Office from his first-place finish in the fourth race Dec. 4 at Aqueduct and fined that horse’s owner-trainer Diane Balsamo, as well as trainer David Jacobson, for failure to disclose that Jacobson, who also ran a horse in that race, had a hidden financial interest in Box Office.
Winning horse paid $27.00+





http://www.drf.com/news/preview/balsamo-jacobson-fined-hidden-financial-interest

I wonder what's the story with that 'marvelous' horse who won a bunch of races for 'balsamo' at Saratoga, anyone remember the horse I'm talking about? S'mavelous or something like that, was Jacobson the owner of that horse too?

[SuperPickle]

Jacobson doesn't really "own" the horse. Apparently he has an arrangement with her where instead of paying him for feed, vet, exercise riding, etc she gives him half of any money the horse makes. It's a relatively common arrangement. Lots of trainers take a cut of winning instead of fees and the horses race under an "owners" name. Jacobson had the same deal with Winning Move when he trained for them.

Where its unKosher is he entering horses in the races where she enters her horses. You can't have an financial interest in any other horse you have a horse entered. This includes being able to bet other horses in the race.

I'm floored he wasn't suspended.

[SuperPickle]

I have no idea why any track would want a guy like Jacobson on the grounds.

He's coming to California for the upcoming Santa Anita meet.

[Stillriledup]

He's coming to California for the upcoming Santa Anita meet.

I bet chrb will welcome him with open arms.

[SuperPickle]

I bet chrb will welcome him with open arms.

Of course. Because he has something they need badly.... HORSES.

[onefast99]

I was trying to make the point exclusion is not a cure all. In fact it's rarely effect and often not an option.

The statement the other poster made was "most if not all track can exclude" people they don't want. This is NOT True.

Here are some examples of exclusion...

Tampa Bay Down is privately owned. They were able to successfully exclude Jane Cibelli last meet because of this. Exclusion worked.

Delaware Park is also privately owned. They tried to exclude Juan Vasquez last meet. They were unable to do so. Even though they are privately owned they take money from the state of Delaware through slot subsidies. Therefore anyone who is licensed to race by the state has a right to compete for this money since it is technically the state's funding. So while they were unable to bar him from racing there they were able to bar him from stabling there since it is private property.

Penn National and Parx had the same issue with Burton Sipp in the 90's where the state forced them to let him enter and claim horses but he could not have stalls...

http://articles.philly.com/1993-07-28/news/25975920_1_park-and-penn-national-horse-trainer-criminal-charges

In addition NYRA can not exclude people because the track is owned by the state. That's why they fought for years for the commission to not give Jacobson a license because once he had it they had to let him race. Meadowlands and Monmouth could not exclude people when the NJSEA owned and operated them. They can now. Gural has thrown out some people. I'm not aware of Monmouth doing it.

So in short being privately owned does not mean you can exclude people. Depending on the state and their operating agreement with the state if they take money from the state they might be forced to let those licensed by the state race. Because more and more tracks rely on money coming from non-racing sources tracks are losing a lot of their autonomy in how they operate.

In a perfect world purses would all come from what goes through the windows and the tracks could pick and choose who got to compete. But now they take a lot of money from a lot of other places that comes with a lot of strings.

Exclusion is not a solution to keep bad guys out.
iSo Mike Gill was given a suspension based on what premise?

[EMD4ME]

Cartagena should be in prison, not just banned.

Please correct me if I'm wrong CJ but wasn't Gregory Martin given jail time for cheating/juicing?

Why not the others?

[westny]

Jacobson doesn't really "own" the horse. Apparently he has an arrangement with her where instead of paying him for feed, vet, exercise riding, etc she gives him half of any money the horse makes. It's a relatively common arrangement. Lots of trainers take a cut of winning instead of fees and the horses race under an "owners" name. Jacobson had the same deal with Winning Move when he trained for them.

Where its unKosher is he entering horses in the races where she enters her horses. You can't have an financial interest in any other horse you have a horse entered. This includes being able to bet other horses in the race.

I'm floored he wasn't suspended.

He has :eek: "pictures"! :D :D :D

[EMD4ME]

I wonder what's the story with that 'marvelous' horse who won a bunch of races for 'balsamo' at Saratoga, anyone remember the horse I'm talking about? S'mavelous or something like that, was Jacobson the owner of that horse too?

This has been a solid betting angle for me for the past couple of years. Through formulator and research, I was able to connect Basalmo and DJ "together". I didn't know what, why, where, how or who but I knew that there was something that connected them and when horses were entered by her at NYRA I assumed DJ had his hand involved. I bet accordingly.

PO'd this came out.

[Stillriledup]

This has been a solid betting angle for me for the past couple of years. Through formulator and research, I was able to connect Basalmo and DJ "together". I didn't know what, why, where, how or who but I knew that there was something that connected them and when horses were entered by her at NYRA I assumed DJ had his hand involved. I bet accordingly.

PO'd this came out.

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/Saratoga-Diary/successful-spa-opener-dampened-by-first-race-spill/

Read the comments under "6th race" seems like this Balsamo/Jacobson connection has been going on for a decade or who knows how long.

They ought to go back and dig into this and take some more purses away.

[EMD4ME]

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/Saratoga-Diary/successful-spa-opener-dampened-by-first-race-spill/

Read the comments under "6th race" seems like this Balsamo/Jacobson connection has been going on for a decade or who knows how long.

They ought to go back and dig into this and take some more purses away.

Where were you when I suspected one of the ex girffriends was cheating a decade ago ??? :lol: :lol: :lol:

[EMD4ME]

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/Saratoga-Diary/successful-spa-opener-dampened-by-first-race-spill/

Read the comments under "6th race" seems like this Balsamo/Jacobson connection has been going on for a decade or who knows how long.

They ought to go back and dig into this and take some more purses away.


Sure....as soon as you and I get letters sent directly to our homes, giving validation that the 8-3 exacta at Yonkers and the Fairplex screw job were proven true AND a check from a class action lawsuit is mailed to the both of us THEN I'll say they'll dig deeper.

[EMD4ME]

And then after that I can get my money back for the A ONE ROCKET race :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Horse came back to the winner's circle with a carvel sign hanging on his saddlecloth :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Stillriledup]

And then after that I can get my money back for the A ONE ROCKET race :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Horse came back to the winner's circle with a carvel sign hanging on his saddlecloth :lol: :lol: :lol:

It's nice they got around to looking at hidden ownership after oh, I don't know, a decade. :faint:

[onefast99]

It's nice they got around to looking at hidden ownership after oh, I don't know, a decade. :faint:I'm sure you realize there are many ways to manipulate the system by all those involved. It happens a lot more than you could ever imagine. Maybe now that Jacobson got caught may keep others from trying or continuuing the same shenanigans.

[EasyGoer89]

So I guess it's been about 5 years that 'babe' has been 'off the program' as trainer. I would say that 5 years is plenty, he ought to be welcomed back into the game under a tight leash AND only if he can prove he's not been training horses under a beard all these years. I say let him back if he's been a good boy.

Any thoughts on babe coming back into the sport and getting his sentence reduced for good behavior?

[no breathalyzer]

the question that pops my mind is who is he bearding for besides the obvious one that everyone knows... or thinks they know :rolleyes:... if he is doing this he is doing a great job staying under the radar

[LottaKash]

So I guess it's been about 5 years that 'babe' has been 'off the program' as trainer. I would say that 5 years is plenty, he ought to be welcomed back into the game under a tight leash AND only if he can prove he's not been training horses under a beard all these years. I say let him back if he's been a good boy.

Any thoughts on babe coming back into the sport and getting his sentence reduced for good behavior?


Yeah, WHY?...

[onefast99]

So I guess it's been about 5 years that 'babe' has been 'off the program' as trainer. I would say that 5 years is plenty, he ought to be welcomed back into the game under a tight leash AND only if he can prove he's not been training horses under a beard all these years. I say let him back if he's been a good boy.

Any thoughts on babe coming back into the sport and getting his sentence reduced for good behavior?He was handed a 10 year suspension, anything less would be considered a mistake, that of course would be if he continued his ways that got him suspended in the first place. Personally I thought the ten year suspension was too short, banned for life would have been my recommendation, the board did show a bit of leniency here and hopefully no one gives him anything less than the 10 years. He is a Zebra, nothing more nothing less.

[magwell]

10 years was way too much, 5 is enough I say let him back .......:)

[Broad Brush]

I wish they would ley him back in the game.

Even though he had a lot of issues, he was one of my favorite
trainers to follow. I know a lot of his patterns for good & bad
performances from his horses. So I guess I am a selfish horseplayer
over punishing him. Punishing him does not help my bottom line.