Cancelling Wagers...

[Flysofree]

I remember the old days of racing when you made a bet it could not be cancelled once you left the window. How has changing that policy helped the game? I don't see where it has in any way.

[HUSKER55]

Like everything else in life it seems to get abused alot. If you bet via the internet and sometimes you hit the wrong key and forget to check your wager, which is dumb, you need to cancel a bet to make another. However there are always those guys who jump in early to shift odds off of their picks to make more money.

I swear it happens every race. (ok..ok...alot). Bet your horse and move on. There is nothing you are going to do unless the ADW stop accepting cancelled wagers.

JMHO

[Flysofree]

When you buy a stock can you cancel it with no penalty at all? Isn't stock market buying about as close to wagering on horses as anything out there?

[Robert Goren]

Get over it. If somebody has figured out a way to get a decent price on his horse in this day of high takeouts, more power to them.

[Flysofree]

Get over it. If somebody has figured out a way to get a decent price on his horse in this day of high takeouts, more power to them.

High Takeouts and Cancelling wagers are NOT the same thing.. The racetrack "powers that be", want the fans to think of this as "entertainment", thus cancel the wager. Now if they said you had to pay a 15% restocking fee or some such figure when cancelling a wager, you would not see wagers cancelled. Secondly why not post final odds 30 seconds before the gates open to start the race...and close all wagering. Then you would not see a horse that left the starting gate at 8/5, now be 4/5 at the top of the stretch.

[misscashalot]

....Secondly why not post final odds 30 seconds before the gates open to start the race...and close all wagering. Then you would not see a horse that left the starting gate at 8/5, now be 4/5 at the top of the stretch.

They did this a few years ago in NY. It lasted a short time. It doesn't work. Pools took a hard hit.

[ByeByeBuck]

Then you would not see a horse that left the starting gate at 8/5, now be 4/5 at the top of the stretch.

Yes, and a horse that breaks badly from the gate go from 3-1 to 9-2

[Robert Goren]

High Takeouts and Cancelling wagers are NOT the same thing.. The racetrack "powers that be", want the fans to think of this as "entertainment", thus cancel the wager. Now if they said you had to pay a 15% restocking fee or some such figure when cancelling a wager, you would not see wagers cancelled. Secondly why not post final odds 30 seconds before the gates open to start the race...and close all wagering. Then you would not see a horse that left the starting gate at 8/5, now be 4/5 at the top of the stretch. People are going to wait to last possible second to bet. If close the wager before the gate open, you will still see the 8/5 become 4/5 seconds after the betting closes. Canceling bets is not much of a problem anywhere and is no problem at tracks that have decent handles. What is a much problem as far last minute changing odds that is programmed betting. That is a program that places a large bet 0 MTP if the horse has such and such of odds or higher. They are the ones which are one which are causing the 8/5 shot go to 4/5 , not the bet cancelers. That happens at all but the very smallest tracks. You won't many people here who would like to see that banned because a lot of them are doing it.

[Flysofree]

Cancelling wagers , if a lot of people here are doing that...They are "riff-Raff". That is part of the problem not part of the solution. But if you want a good product in wagering do away with cancelling wagers and stop allwagering internet or whatever prior to the gates being released...

But it seems there is little interest in making this a better sport. The money will follow with improvements.

[Robert Goren]

Cancelling wagers , if a lot of people here are doing that...They are "riff-Raff". That is part of the problem not part of the solution. But if you want a good product in wagering do away with cancelling wagers and stop allwagering internet or whatever prior to the gates being released...

But it seems there is little interest in making this a better sport. The money will follow with improvements.Not a lot people here are canceling wager, if fact probably not anybody. But I don't think you going find very many people that going be in favor of shutting down internet wagering before on track betting. That would hurt internet wagering a lot and you woud see handles drop like a rock. Most of todays handle come from internet and simulcasting wagering.
You seem to be under the illusion that betting horses is a sport. The race itself is a sport, but the betting is a game just like chess or poker. Apparently you haven't figured that out yet. If you want a good product in horse racing they have have got to make it more affordable, then money the money will come. I am not worried about something happens a couple times across the game as a whole stopping the money. This is a non issue in the big picture when it comes attracting money to the game. When we fix the high takeouts and the drugging of horses, then we can start to worry about things like this. Until then, this is nothing more than a distraction that people who oppose doing anything about those two issues will use to their advantage.

[pondman]

I remember the old days of racing when you made a bet it could not be cancelled once you left the window. How has changing that policy helped the game? I don't see where it has in any way.

I wouldn't stick my money out, if I didn't think I could cancel. I'd wait until the gate call. Why should I be penalized for betting early? There would be a traffic jam at 2 minutes to go if you couldn't cancel.

I cancel if the risk doesn't meet the reward. I single horses, so I don't remove a bet, and place it on another horse. I'll cancel and pass up the race if the odds get to low. There is no manipulation.

[Flysofree]

Someone mentioned drugs in the game and I'm for no drugs in the sport. But see that ain't gonna happen or PETA would have stopped that already. The drugs companies, buy and sell more than drugs!

As for canceling a wager because the odds got too low.....well, see that's called GAMBLING....duh..
I think the above poster should be allowed to cancel provided he pays a small service fee...

[Robert Goren]

Someone mentioned drugs in the game and I'm for no drugs in the sport. But see that ain't gonna happen or PETA would have stopped that already. The drugs companies, buy and sell more than drugs!

As for canceling a wager because the odds got too low.....well, see that's called GAMBLING....duh..
I think the above poster should be allowed to cancel provided he pays a small service fee... I will agree to a fee for canceling a wager, if they also charge a fee for the programmed wagering. To me there is not much difference. You cancel a bet because the odds are too low or your computer doesn't make a bet because the odds are too low. Whats the difference? Your 8/5 shot is not going to 4/5 because someone canceled wager. It is the 2/5 that goes to even money that is caused by someone canceling a wager. Canceling a large wager at post time protects him from the program guys who would have bet the horse down to 2/5 if he had been even money at post time. The more I read your posts, the more I think you are one of them. If you are, you get no sympathy from me if you are. They are the reason I seldom bet places they frequent anymore like the NYRA tracks. For every one bet canceler, there are at least a couple hundred program bettors. They are the reason a small bettor like me can never bet a favorite again without expecting the odds to drop at least levels after the bell. As a result I bet a lot fewer races. I wish I had the money to be a bet canceler, then I could beat them at their own game.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'll never understand the animosity towards those who have had the ability to find and take advantage of an edge in this game. Especially those critical of "programmed wagers."

What exactly is your definition of "program bettor?"

[Aner]

I cancel bets 2 or 3 times a month. My $2 bet has no effect on the total picture. When my horse busts through the gate or looks extremely washy, I appreciate the ability to bail out.

[Tom]

My two cents - no cancelling wagers, and all wagers made one at a time, either by phone, on line account, or at a teller. No animosity, but I don't think it is good for the game.

[Robert Goren]

I'll never understand the animosity towards those who have had the ability to find and take advantage of an edge in this game. Especially those critical of "programmed wagers."

What exactly is your definition of "program bettor?" If I can use methods like canceling wagers, I don't have a much of a problem. In fact, if they could come with a program that would cancel a bet at 0 MTP then everyone would be on equal footing when it comes to getting the odds they need. Maybe I am just tired of seeing 33% of the win pool come in after bell with almost all the money coming in on one number.

[toetoe]

People are going to wait to last possible second to bet.



I know a writer that claims he tried to give a customer an $80 place bet on a race at Belmont, and mistakenly punched it for $890 !!! He tried to cancel it, but the race went off before he could. The horse came in second and paid $7.90.

$2600 profit, but who gets it ? The writer who would be on the hook for $890 if the horse ran out ? The casino ?

I don't know, maybe the story is crap, but I believe it.

[PhantomOnTour]

I cancel bets 2 or 3 times a month. My $2 bet has no effect on the total picture. When my horse busts through the gate or looks extremely washy, I appreciate the ability to bail out.
Exactly...what if they halt betting at 1min to post and a horse acts up, gets scratched and changes the whole pace picture of the race?
I do not want to be locked into a bet on a horse who loses his mind once in the gate, or right before loading.

[PaceAdvantage]

If I can use methods like canceling wagers, I don't have a much of a problem. And why can't you?

Plus, you never did answer my question on your definition of a "program bettor."

[thaskalos]

I'll never understand the animosity towards those who have had the ability to find and take advantage of an edge in this game. Especially those critical of "programmed wagers."

What exactly is your definition of "program bettor?"
I too have an animosity...but it is NOT towards those who "find and take advantage of an edge in this game".

My anger is pointed towards those who ALLOW these "advantages" to exist in the first place...without offering us an explanation of what exactly is taking place when the odds drop noticeably during the running of the race.

Is it the "whales", who have set up super-sophisticated computer systems -- with the help of the tracks themselves -- which allow them to place their wagers at the very last second before the gates open, or even later in some cases...and if that's the case, why can't ALL of us do the same thing?

When I try to place my bet as late as I possibly can, my bet is rejected...and the horses are still standing in the gate.

Why is this "advantage" available to some...and not to all?

[Tom]

As Steve Byk has explained it, a lot of the problem is caused by antiquated systems in use at the tracks. The odds apparently do not change until the numbers shown on the video change, so if the running order doesn't change until the horses turn for home, you won't get the odds changes until then.
Seems ridiculous to me, but check it out.

It certainly would not surprise me to learn tracks were allowing late bets from large bettors, though. I have very little confidence in the integrity of any race track or race track managers.

[thaskalos]

It certainly would not surprise me to learn tracks were allowing late bets from large bettors, though. I have very little confidence in the integrity of any race track or race track managers.
I agree with you completely Tom...and I would like to ask you this:

With the race track revenues declining steadily, how confident are we that the race tracks THEMSELVES would not resort to placing their own "late" bets...as a way of helping to "pay the bills"...?

[Flysofree]

To allow the cancelling of ANY wager, without penalty is absurd.

[skate]

i purchase cancelation bets.

:)

[skate]

I agree with you completely Tom...and I would like to ask you this:

With the race track revenues declining steadily, how confident are we that the race tracks THEMSELVES would not resort to placing their own "late" bets...as a way of helping to "pay the bills"...?


welp, that's the way the Banks do "it" and guess what? they too lost...:cool:

might be, also with the bamks, a conflict of interest. but let it ride....yep.

[Tom]

I agree with you completely Tom...and I would like to ask you this:

With the race track revenues declining steadily, how confident are we that the race tracks THEMSELVES would not resort to placing their own "late" bets...as a way of helping to "pay the bills"...?

Maybe the ask Rajiv to help them out a bit? :rolleyes::D

[pondman]

To allow the cancelling of ANY wager, without penalty is absurd.

Why is it absurd?

You'll penalize early betters, and people at the track who don't have access to online conditional betting accounts.

It's the $2 better that you need at the track. Why run those people off?

And what would you do with the penalty money?

[Robert Goren]

And why can't you?

Plus, you never did answer my question on your definition of a "program bettor." I don't have the money. A "program bettor'" is some who has the computer place a bet at ? MTP if the horse has such and such odds at that time. Yes I know that most ADWs have that feature now, but it is still programed betting in my book. I also know that there are programs that do the handicapping and will so place the bet if the that handicapped horse or horses meet the required odds for that type of horse.
They are legal, but it is fustrating when I think I have a horse that I think has a 50% chance of winning going off at 3/2 and it drops to 4/5 or 3/5 after the bell. with almost the considerable amount of late money coming in my horse. It happens at some tracks like NYRA run tracks a lot. Somebody( I wish it was me back when I had the money to do it) has figured out at some smaller tracks you can get odds by making a two bets. A small one which he keeps and a large that keeps the odds low until he cancels it at the last second. I see nothing wrong with that. I know that means some people who bet 8/1 shots will see their odds drop to 4/1 after the bell. Tell how is this worse than having my 3/2 shot drop to 4/5.

[Robert Goren]

I agree with you completely Tom...and I would like to ask you this:

With the race track revenues declining steadily, how confident are we that the race tracks THEMSELVES would not resort to placing their own "late" bets...as a way of helping to "pay the bills"...? When I am betting against the jumpers, I try to bet as the horses are loading. The problem I have sometimes, there is a slight delay in the video. Plus the pools don't renew fast enough. I don't know if correcting these two problems would solve anything, but it might stop me from yelling at my computer screen. I really don't think tracks( at least TB tracks) are deliberately taking money after the bell, although there may be a rogue employee or computer foul up somewhere that is allowing it to happen. I believe that Penn National had it happen.

[therussmeister]

And what would you do with the penalty money?
I would say, leave it in the pool - like a carryover.

[pondman]

I would say, leave it in the pool - like a carryover.

Doesn't this make standing in line an economic strategy, who can bet at the last minute? You'd then have to decide which ATW can give the fastest service at an individual track--in the last 30 seconds. You'll hose people at the track and those people playing non-primary ATWs.

Nobody will bet early.

[therussmeister]

Betting at the last minute already is an economic strategy, and I don't know why anybody bets early, except if they are not going to hang around for the race. But I don't know why "penalty money" in the pool would make it more important to bet late than it is now. It would mean odds would change late, but they already change late, plus the "penalty money" would raise the price on every horse, it's not like some horse would take a big hit. In the end I doubt there would be enough penalty money to notice the change.

[toussaud]

i harly ever make a wager before 2 mtp anymore.

i have cancelled all of 2 wagers this year. one in which the horse just acted a complete fool in the gate and they backed her out,l i cancelled asap. ironically enough she won lol.

the other when by pure chance i noticed that i had put in 1 too many zero's in my last wager, you know how you have the PIN saved and you really don't pay attention when it asks you to confirm, well you need to pay attention lol. i was about 30 seconds away from just blowing it.

you need to have the right to cancel a wager. I have a bigger problem with conditional wagering than i do with cancelled wagers.

[Flysofree]

Conditional wagers (online) should also be banned along with cancelled wagers. NEITHER help the game!

[PaceAdvantage]

Conditional wagers (online) should also be banned along with cancelled wagers. NEITHER help the game!One of the few new innovations many fans have been clamoring for over the years is finally in place at most every ADW, and you want them to ban it?

Horseplayers sure are an odd lot... :faint:

Conditional wagering KICKS ASS, and is a MUST for the value player who can't be in front of his screen every single minute.

How exactly does my wanting to place a bet as long as the horse is over 5/1 at 0mtp ruining your chances at success?

I can easily do the same thing WITHOUT conditional wagering, except this makes it much more convenient for me...so what exactly has changed?

[thaskalos]

Conditional wagers (online) should also be banned along with cancelled wagers. NEITHER help the game!
We should be more concerned about what helps the PLAYER...rather than worrying about what helps the game.

If the players are better off...the game will be better off as well.

[senortout]

One of the few new innovations many fans have been clamoring for over the years is finally in place at most every ADW, and you want them to ban it?

Horseplayers sure are an odd lot... :faint:

Conditional wagering KICKS ASS, and is a MUST for the value player who can't be in front of his screen every single minute.

How exactly does my wanting to place a bet as long as the horse is over 5/1 at 0mtp ruining your chances at success?

I can easily do the same thing WITHOUT conditional wagering, except this makes it much more convenient for me...so what exactly has changed?

Yes, but don't you see, you are doomed by every further use of the "conditional wager" , which CANNOT GUARANTEE Your goal of 5-1, actually the conditional wager practically GUARATEES that you WILL NOT GET YOUR PRICE!

[PaceAdvantage]

Yes, but don't you see, you are doomed by every further use of the "conditional wager" , which CANNOT GUARANTEE Your goal of 5-1, actually the conditional wager practically GUARATEES that you WILL NOT GET YOUR PRICE!That hasn't been my experience at all. Although I suppose it would be my experience if I were betting large sums into small pools.

[Robert Goren]

The use of conditional wagers does not have that much effect on 5/1 shots. when a horse gets to the 5/2 range or lower, it begins to have a real effect. My guess is that it really kicks in big time at about 3/2 and stops at at 3/5. It has been my a experence that a 4/5 shot almost always go to 3/5 or lower after the bell. That seems to be the line where it stops. It appears to me that most of the conditional wagering is done the top two favorites. It would nice to see some data on that, but I doubt that ADWs keep records on it.