What if the NFL Played by Teachers' Rules?

[Dave Schwartz]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204226204576601232986845102.html

What if the NFL Played by Teachers' Rules?

By FRAN TARKENTON

Imagine the National Football League in an alternate reality. Each player's salary is based on how long he's been in the league. It's about tenure, not talent. The same scale is used for every player, no matter whether he's an All-Pro quarterback or the last man on the roster. For every year a player's been in this NFL, he gets a bump in pay. The only difference between Tom Brady and the worst player in the league is a few years of step increases. And if a player makes it through his third season, he can never be cut from the roster until he chooses to retire, except in the most extreme cases of misconduct.

More at the link...

[DJofSD]

Sore subject, Dave. I have a kid in a public school.

My brother's adopted daughter just graduated from college. 12 years public education and 4 years private college. Is she ready for the real world? Hell no. And this is in spite of everything my brother has done and told her over her life time. And she is far from being stupid -- just the opposite. Her college education was a full boat academic scholarship.

Public schools -- it is a source of constant frustration and irritation.

One item that is at the top of the list: Wednesday is a half day of school. Why? So the teachers can have meetings and attend off-site activities during the rest of the day. But this does not mean they are in the classroom the balance of the week. Nope. They are still absent with substitutes taking over the teaching which may or may not be according the the teaching plan or sylabus.

As far as I'm concerned, the system exists for the benefit of the teachers and the union and not the children.

[mostpost]

In the NFL there are clear indicators of a players value. The quarterback who throws for 3500 yards in a season is more valuable than one who throws for 700 yards. The running back who averages 6 yards a carry is more valuable than the running back who averages 1.9. There are even ways to measure the value of offensive lineman.

But even in the NFL there are certain minimums that all players are paid. Those are based in part on years of service. So what you have is a situation where players earn a basic salary which is very good and in addition are rewarded for superior performance. I think that would be an excellent system for teachers; a good salary plus performance bonuses. That is what you are advocating, right?

Another thing that Tarkenton gets wrong is thinking that salary is the only motivation a player has to perform better. If that were the case, no high school student would ever join the football team. No student would spend hours in the gym to improve his jump shot. No athlete would work on his batting stroke during the off season. Yet I know many high school coaches locally who tell me their players do just those things. And those are athletes who have zero chance of playing in college let alone the pros. Tarkenton, in his article ignores something called pride in self.

Another problem in Tarkenton's approach is how do you determine a good teacher or a bad teacher? The very best and the very worst are obvious. but the vast middle ground is quite nebulous. How is competence determined? Who determines it? How do we protect teachers from an ambitious administrator who decides to cut his budget by firing competent teachers with high salaries?

[TJDave]

Another thing that Tarkenton gets wrong is thinking that salary is the only motivation a player has to perform better. If that were the case, no high school student would ever join the football team. No student would spend hours in the gym to improve his jump shot. No athlete would work on his batting stroke during the off season. Yet I know many high school coaches locally who tell me their players do just those things. And those are athletes who have zero chance of playing in college let alone the pros. Tarkenton, in his article ignores something called pride in self.


But another word that starts with 'P'. ;)

What's Tarkenton complaining about? He should be the NFL poster boy for tenure. All them years and how many rings? :rolleyes:

[FantasticDan]

But another word that starts with 'P'. ;)
:D :ThmbUp:

http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/1660/PreviewComp/SuperStock_1660R-36934.jpg

[mostpost]

Sore subject, Dave. I have a kid in a public school.

My brother's adopted daughter just graduated from college. 12 years public education and 4 years private college. Is she ready for the real world? Hell no. And this is in spite of everything my brother has done and told her over her life time. And she is far from being stupid -- just the opposite. Her college education was a full boat academic scholarship.

Public schools -- it is a source of constant frustration and irritation.

One item that is at the top of the list: Wednesday is a half day of school. Why? So the teachers can have meetings and attend off-site activities during the rest of the day. But this does not mean they are in the classroom the balance of the week. Nope. They are still absent with substitutes taking over the teaching which may or may not be according the the teaching plan or sylabus.

As far as I'm concerned, the system exists for the benefit of the teachers and the union and not the children.

You say your niece is not ready for the real world. Does she say she is not? Is that your opinion? What do you base it on? Were you ready for the real world when you were her age? NO, YOU WERE NOT

I do not believe your paragraph about the half day of school. We have teachers institute days and in service days in our schools too. I know several people who are teachers. None of them have ever indicated that they took an entire week off to attend a half day meeting. They teach in the morning and go to the meetings in the afternoon and they are in class the other four days of the week. And where are they going to get substitute teachers to replace all those teachers. I know the elementary school one of my friends teaches at has one or two retired or former teachers they call on to substitute. They do not have 15 or16.

[mostpost]

But another word that starts with 'P'. ;)

What's Tarkenton complaining about? He should be the NFL poster boy for tenure. All them years and how many rings? :rolleyes:
OK, I'm dense!! I can't figure what the other "P" word is. :confused:

[DJofSD]

Yes, she says she is not ready. Both by her words and her actions.

And, since you don't know anything about me or my life, I was ready for the real world before I got out of high school.

[Greyfox]

Yes, she says she is not ready. Both by her words and her actions.

And, since you don't know anything about me or my life, I was ready for the real world before I got out of high school.

If she isn't ready for the "real world" after 12 years of school and 4 years of college, when will she be ready?

(I had brothers who were ready for the real world after only 9 years of school.
They did very well in life.)

[DJofSD]

Good question. Another part of the puzzle is her mother is one of those people that rose above her circumstances.

I think when all of the harse realities of needing to pay bills, etc. really and truely sets it, the rough edges will come off. Some of that as already started in the last 2 or 3 months. Mom and "dad" have basically already told her no mas dinero, chica.

[Dave Schwartz]

If she isn't ready for the "real world" after 12 years of school and 4 years of college, when will she be ready?

This really happens, Foxie.

There was a show - Dateline, I think - where they interviewed a girl who had been an honor student all the way through high school. Literally, straight-A's! She got to college (might have been Univ. of Tennessee, but I am not sure) and just could not handle her classes. She was so ill-equipped to handle REAL education.

The show attempted to make the point that this was not a single or rare occurrence.

I realize that being "ready for life" and "ready for college" are not the same things. The ready-for-life-thing is certainly different, and many at 18-25 are simply not prepared. That means:

*Can't support themselves
*Can't manage money
*Can't cook, clean or maintain a residence


IMHO, the majority of this is the responsibility of the parents but the school system is not without culpability.


Just my opinion.


Dave Schwartz

[Tom]

Two words...Jay Walking.

[mostpost]

Two words...Jay Walking.
I keep hoping that they had to interview a lot of people before they get the ones that are dumb enough to put on TV. I keep hoping that.

[mostpost]

OK, I'm dense!! I can't figure what the other "P" word is. :confused:
Never mind. Somehow I missed the picture in Fantastic Dan's response. No longer :confused:

[Greyfox]

This really happens, Foxie.



Dave Schwartz

Of course it really happens.
But it's been my experience that necessity is the motherhood of invention.
Many "adult children" won't cope with major responsibilities until they are absolutely forced to. Then they do surprisingly well once they are kicked out of the nest because they have to face the reality of sink or swim.
(I'm assuming of course that these are not special needs adults.)

[NJ Stinks]

Why is that the teachers I had in the '60's and '70's also worked under the 'tenure" and seniority" policies and nobody bitched and moaned about at the time?

I think Scramblin' Fran is looking for something....anything....to knock teacher's unions. That's what I think.

[NJ Stinks]

Not specifically related to this, I also think computers don't belong in a classroom. (I took lots of tests where we could not even use a calculator.)

I may be missing something but until somebody gives me some good reasons, computers don't belong in classrooms IMO.

[Greyfox]

Why is that the teachers I had in the '60's and '70's also worked under the 'tenure" and seniority" policies and nobody bitched and moaned about at the time?

I think Scramblin' Fran is looking for something....anything....to knock teacher's unions. That's what I think.

The question of merit pay for teachers has been around for over 50 years even if you weren't aware of it.

[Tom]

So you are saying teachers have been without merit for a half a century now?

[Greyfox]

So you are saying teachers have been without merit for a half a century now?

No. Teachers have always had merit in terms of their contributions. God Bless them.
Try teaching for a day, month, or a year and then you'll find out why. They deserve their pay and they need their vacation time.


"Merit Pay" has been a contentious issue for well over a half a Century.
Teachers' Unions for the most part have opposed it for Public Schools.

[Tom]

They deserve their pay and they need their vacation time.

ONLY when they do their job and teach successfully. Effort conts for nothing. Stupid kids on the street - and there are millions of them - do not constitute earning their pay. And they deserve no more vacation than the rest of us. No other profession carries dead weight and incompetence than teaching. The only thing that matters is results.

[Actor]

Pay each teacher minimum wage plus a percentage of their student's lifetime earnings. Just a thought. :rolleyes:

[Greyfox]

ONLY when they do their job and teach successfully. Effort conts for nothing. Stupid kids on the street - and there are millions of them - do not constitute earning their pay. And they deserve no more vacation than the rest of us. No other profession carries dead weight and incompetence than teaching. The only thing that matters is results.

TOM - On this topic, as wise as you normally are, I beg to differ.

Starting with the emboldened point last point above and working backwards.

1. Results should matter. Good teachers get results.
The question becomes "How long can they get results."

Of course without going long on this matter, there are instances where the best teacher can't teach "a pig to quack." That begs the question of what results does anyone expect and under what circumstances? That question is not so easily answered.

2. Vacation. From an external perspective, time off for teachers looks pretty cushy. Anyone who has done it for awhile begs to differ and that is not because they have chosen a career with two or months off in the summer.
In fact, many good teachers opt out, often for lower paying jobs and less vacation. Teaching , even for the best among them, is quite stressful. Many do not realize it until their past "due date."


3. Effort - a teacher who is not putting in effort is usually "toast."

GOD BLESS GOOD TEACHERS, FOR THE JOB THEY DO, AND WHILE THEY LAST!!!

[Track Collector]

No doubt there exists a number of teachers who should have been shown the door years ago, however, we need to recognize that for a majority of teachers who do their best, the expectations imposed on them are nearly impossible to achieve.

While we use student test grades to keep score, should it be the only way we evaluate teachers? In the politically correct society we have today, we are in denial of the reality that human beings have different abilities, and while it should be our "goal" to have each and every student reach the highest level of learning and education, reality tells us that this is impossible. If one teacher has a bunch of low-ability kids and teaches them up to just make a passing grade, while another teacher is given higher-ability students who get "B's" instead of the "A's" they are capable of, who has done the better job teaching? In today's world we praise the latter teacher and tell the former teacher they need to do much better, because we grade on an absolute scale.

I think another huge mistake with today's educational system is that we do not focus enough on the student's (and parent's) obligation in the learning process. Today students are more and more disrespectful and unmotivated, and they use this to their full advantage knowing that those in authority have fewer tools (i.e no physical punishments).

Add to this the "Educational System" that pushes students up to the next grade and even out the door before they have mastered even the most basic of skills and you are going to end up with a society of uneducated and unskilled.

BTW, my wife is in her 36th year of teaching, and GOD bless her, she still puts in 70-80 hours each and every week, trying to get the best out of students who are doing their best to see that nobody learns.

[Tom]

GOD BLESS GOOD TEACHERS, FOR THE JOB THEY DO, AND WHILE THEY LAST!!!

And what better way to honor them than to weed out the bad ones. Tenure rewards the bad ones.And I guess, while we're at it, we should probably take some vacation time away from firemen and give it to the poor, overworked teachers. :rolleyes: