Jamie Ness

[Beachbabe]

Someone started a thread..."Juan Carlos Guerro in a class by himself".
Anymore, I don't know if JCG is in a class by himself. Jamie Ness is winning at a rate over 32% for the year. Early returns at Laurel have Ness with 4 wins in 6 starts. Today he ran a horse named Lavenham ,MTO, in a race taken off the grass. She won,running 5 1/2 in 1:03.4 She now has 4 wins in 5 starts since Ness claimed her for 7500. Before Ness picked her up, Lavenham's highest Bris figure was 79 with most figs in the low to mid 70's. In her first 4 races for Jamie before today, her Bris figs were 83, 94, 95, 87 (and today's fig on an off track has to be in the 90's).
He has to be neck-and-neck with JCG as "Supertrainer of the Year".

[LottaKash]

He has to be neck-and-neck with JCG as "Supertrainer of the Year".

Another one, that has seemingly discovered the "fountain of youth" for horses....:D

best,

[Knowclew]

Sharp observation BB. Ness has been doing it for a while, and it doesn't seem to matter what circuit he does it on.

[toussaud]

he is winning something stupid like 50% at river downs, i remember them saying it on HRTV a week or so ago

[Valuist]

Sharp observation BB. Ness has been doing it for a while, and it doesn't seem to matter what circuit he does it on.

I find it interesting that he goes to a circuit and dominates, then leaves. The real question is, was he asked to leave?

[Robert Goren]

Ness gets a lot of horses from Midwest Thoroughbreds. He is one several trainers they use. All of the them get a high % of winners.

[rastajenk]

he is winning something stupid like 50% at river downs, i remember them saying it on HRTV a week or so agoI think he had runners there maybe four times, must've won a couple. Surely he cheats. :p

[skate]

I'll put the Steve Assmussen and family in here, he's got over 1200 races and runs at least 20% over the years and the man is ready real for the race.

bomb-ready horses, always

[Striker]

Looking at what he has done with 1 of his 4 winners on Tampa's card today--Repenter. Midwest claimed this one on 8/28 at Arlington in a Clm 5000(c) with Roger B listed as the trainer. Before this race this horse had gone thru 4 different trainers(Tammy Domenosky, Chris Block, David Kassen, and Leigh Bentley) since April of 2011 with no wins since 10/09/2010 albeit at higher levels in most races with a 3rd place finish on 6/24 for Block being the best any of these trainers had until Tammy D got a 2nd in the race that Midwest claimed the horse in. Horse disappears until a work on 10/18 at Hawthorne and another on 10/25 I'm assuming still with Roger B but doesn't race at Hawthorne. It is my guess that Ness got the horse some point after 10/25 as the horse worked at Delaware on 11/19. Horse then ships to Laurel and wins at the same level Clm 5000c at 5.5f by 6 lengths. I can reasonably understand this. Races again at Lrl in a Str5000 at 7f and finishes 2nd of 7 runners. Then jumps up at Tampa on 12/28 and wins at Clm 16000 level. My suspicions arise after this one. Add another win at the Clm 16000 today by 5.5 lengths and you have 3 wins and one 2nd from a horse who hasn't won since 10/2010 and 4 different barns had their shot with the horse and couldn't muster anything better than a 2nd and a 3rd. But Midwest claimed him and since Ness has had the horse in his amazing care he now has 33% of the horses wins now. Very impressive.

[tbwinner]

Looking at what he has done with 1 of his 4 winners on Tampa's card today--Repenter. Midwest claimed this one on 8/28 at Arlington in a Clm 5000(c) with Roger B listed as the trainer. Before this race this horse had gone thru 4 different trainers(Tammy Domenosky, Chris Block, David Kassen, and Leigh Bentley) since April of 2011 with no wins since 10/09/2010 albeit at higher levels in most races with a 3rd place finish on 6/24 for Block being the best any of these trainers had until Tammy D got a 2nd in the race that Midwest claimed the horse in. Horse disappears until a work on 10/18 at Hawthorne and another on 10/25 I'm assuming still with Roger B but doesn't race at Hawthorne. It is my guess that Ness got the horse some point after 10/25 as the horse worked at Delaware on 11/19. Horse then ships to Laurel and wins at the same level Clm 5000c at 5.5f by 6 lengths. I can reasonably understand this. Races again at Lrl in a Str5000 at 7f and finishes 2nd of 7 runners. Then jumps up at Tampa on 12/28 and wins at Clm 16000 level. My suspicions arise after this one. Add another win at the Clm 16000 today by 5.5 lengths and you have 3 wins and one 2nd from a horse who hasn't won since 10/2010 and 4 different barns had their shot with the horse and couldn't muster anything better than a 2nd and a 3rd. But Midwest claimed him and since Ness has had the horse in his amazing care he now has 33% of the horses wins now. Very impressive.

Yep I owned him with Tammy D earlier this summer. The horse didn't really impress me or anything in terms of his works or ability in the mornings. We tried a few different things with him to improve him in the mornings but thought he wasn't anything more than a $5,000 or $10,000 horse...apparently we were wrong or Ness has the "magic formula" for this horse as the majority of its earnings (if not 90%+) were made with Ness training.

[Striker]

Of course I saw that you guys had him and were hoping you would chime in and basically say exactly what you just said. The most amazing factor in this thing is that 4 other pretty decent trainers had the horse before Ness, well Midwest and Roger B, claimed him and those trainers couldn't get a win out of him. But now Ness has just rattled off 3 wins and a second. If the horse was so sound why didn't he race at Hawthorne? Hawthorne had enough Clm 5000c races for him.

[tbwinner]

Yep - that surprised me too. I put the horse in my stable mail and expected to see it entered either the last weekend of Arlington or a few times in October at Hawthorne. Started to get glad I lost him when I did, then I see the wins he's rattled off since and I am baffled. Could all the other trainers really not find the "key" that Ness has?

[johnhannibalsmith]

... Jamie Ness is winning at a rate over 32% for the year. ...He has to be neck-and-neck with JCG as "Supertrainer of the Year".

Awww heck, that's nothing...

Rank Trainer Name Starts 1st 2nd 3rd Earnings Win% Top3 Top3%
1 Miguel Angel Silva 181 52 31 44 $355,483 29% 127 70%
2 Robertino Diodoro 132 39 21 18 $311,198 30% 78 59%
3 Molly J. Pearson 107 30 19 14 $272,664 28% 63 59%
4 Mike Chambers 77 37 9 13 $234,524 48% 59 77%

[tbwinner]

The more amazing thing is how they can do it and keep such an operation at a high win % with so many horses. They do spot their horses well but it's unbelievable how EVERY ONE improves under a Ness/Midwest claim.

[menifee]

Looking at what he has done with 1 of his 4 winners on Tampa's card today--Repenter. Midwest claimed this one on 8/28 at Arlington in a Clm 5000(c) with Roger B listed as the trainer. Before this race this horse had gone thru 4 different trainers(Tammy Domenosky, Chris Block, David Kassen, and Leigh Bentley) since April of 2011 with no wins since 10/09/2010 albeit at higher levels in most races with a 3rd place finish on 6/24 for Block being the best any of these trainers had until Tammy D got a 2nd in the race that Midwest claimed the horse in. Horse disappears until a work on 10/18 at Hawthorne and another on 10/25 I'm assuming still with Roger B but doesn't race at Hawthorne. It is my guess that Ness got the horse some point after 10/25 as the horse worked at Delaware on 11/19. Horse then ships to Laurel and wins at the same level Clm 5000c at 5.5f by 6 lengths. I can reasonably understand this. Races again at Lrl in a Str5000 at 7f and finishes 2nd of 7 runners. Then jumps up at Tampa on 12/28 and wins at Clm 16000 level. My suspicions arise after this one. Add another win at the Clm 16000 today by 5.5 lengths and you have 3 wins and one 2nd from a horse who hasn't won since 10/2010 and 4 different barns had their shot with the horse and couldn't muster anything better than a 2nd and a 3rd. But Midwest claimed him and since Ness has had the horse in his amazing care he now has 33% of the horses wins now. Very impressive.


Very nice analysis, but you are not telling the whole story here. Ness owned this horse before. In 2010, Ness owned this horse and the horse won some nice races at PID and Tampa Bay. He was actually running against tougher competition then. I'm skeptical of Ness, but the horse does have some talent and it is not like his figures improved so dramatically after Ness re-claimed. Frankly, the race was not that good of a field at all.

[JustRalph]

The more amazing thing is how they can do it and keep such an operation at a high win % with so many horses. They do spot their horses well but it's unbelievable how EVERY ONE improves under a Ness/Midwest claim.

As an owner, I can't imagine having this happen too many times. Before I would call bullshit and walk away

[proximity]

As an owner, I can't imagine having this happen too many times. Before I would call bullshit and walk away

in many cases (but not all) it is the owner who creates the super trainer(s).

[mannyberrios]

Some Super trainer! Mr. Ness can't win at Gulfstream

[sammy the sage]

But did you see his AT Oaklawn yesterday...passed in stretch....rebroke and won by a head...

ITPP...google/wiki it...if you don't understand

[CincyHorseplayer]

We were talking about ness on another thread last week.I was looking through forms at his acquisitions.In the 2nd start off the claim the average BSF improvement was 10+.

[kid sapphire]

Very nice analysis, but you are not telling the whole story here. Ness owned this horse before. In 2010, Ness owned this horse and the horse won some nice races at PID and Tampa Bay. He was actually running against tougher competition then. I'm skeptical of Ness, but the horse does have some talent and it is not like his figures improved so dramatically after Ness re-claimed. Frankly, the race was not that good of a field at all.

Ness knows how to fix the horse. All horses have issues and Ness is able to identify them better then other trainers. I see nothing wrong and there appears to be a tremendous amount of professional jealously from unprofessional people.

If Ness is cheating catch him!

[lamboguy]

Ness knows how to fix the horse. All horses have issues and Ness is able to identify them better then other trainers. I see nothing wrong and there appears to be a tremendous amount of professional jealously from unprofessional people.

If Ness is cheating catch him!
i have to agree with you on this operation, the midwest thoroughbred corporation are legit people, they build out stores for large corporations nationwide. i really don't think these people need to be cheater's or be associated with cheater's to gain edges in the racing game.

i have no idea how Ness can teach his horses to re-break every time in the stretch when the guys before him couldn't do that. the other thing i can't answer is how when the horses get claimed away from ness they don't perform as well for the new guy.. and when the horses get claimed away from ness they don't re-break the same way either.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Ness knows how to fix the horse. All horses have issues and Ness is able to identify them better then other trainers. I see nothing wrong and there appears to be a tremendous amount of professional jealously from unprofessional people.

If Ness is cheating catch him!
http://www.horsefund.org/the-chemical-horse-part-9.php

[kid sapphire]

http://www.horsefund.org/the-chemical-horse-part-9.php

How may starters did he have in 2011 and how many violations. Apparently what everyone fails to realize in racing is violations are a part of the game the same way speeding and parking tickets are part of the expense of running a trucking company. Every trainer uses drugs daily some like Ness use them liberally to achieve better results the industry is OK with it Obviously as virtually nothing is done to fix the issue. If you are Ness whats the big deal if you get days and a fine when the rewards are so great.

BTW Mr Horseplayer what service do you hawk for profit?

[Horseplayersbet.com]

How may starters did he have in 2011 and how many violations. Apparently what everyone fails to realize in racing is violations are a part of the game the same way speeding and parking tickets are part of the expense of running a trucking company. Every trainer uses drugs daily some like Ness use them liberally to achieve better results the industry is OK with it Obviously as virtually nothing is done to fix the issue. If you are Ness whats the big deal if you get days and a fine when the rewards are so great.

BTW Mr Horseplayer what service do you hawk for profit?
There are a couple of trainers on the list with no violations. Ness has the highest percentage of violations per start. In other words, he has been caught quite a few times. I'm not picking on Ness here, but didn't you state if Ness is cheating catch him?
I'm against the use of enhancers in horse racing, and I think that there should be 5-7 legal drugs that should be allowable, if that.
Violations should not be part of the game. And I don't think the industry is OK with them anymore (they are no longer viewed as speeding tickets).
As for catching those who are cheating, well to begin with, that would take bigger fines and suspensions to deter those from using drugs which aren't being tested for.

I've always been passionate about horse racing. I want it to grow. Though I don't believe that cheating is causing horse racing not to grow (with respect to new customers), it isn't helping, and definitely won't help if horse racing does begin to grow again.

Super trainers are not good for wagering when it comes to existing Horseplayers either. It makes it hard to bet with confidence.

As for your question, I have no idea what you are aiming at with it, or its relevance here.

[HoofedInTheChest]

How may starters did he have in 2011 and how many violations. Apparently what everyone fails to realize in racing is violations are a part of the game the same way speeding and parking tickets are part of the expense of running a trucking company. Every trainer uses drugs daily some like Ness use them liberally to achieve better results the industry is OK with it Obviously as virtually nothing is done to fix the issue. If you are Ness whats the big deal if you get days and a fine when the rewards are so great.

BTW Mr Horseplayer what service do you hawk for profit?
So....... what is your connection to Ness? Do you work for him? Are you related? Why are you so quick to defend him?

In one post you say he is great at "fixing" horses, and you challenge anyone to prove that he is using illegal drugs. Now in this last post you say he is using them liberally to win races, and since everyone is doing it and it is the industry standard that makes it ok. Well which is it?

[classhandicapper]

I'll put the Steve Assmussen and family in here, he's got over 1200 races and runs at least 20% over the years and the man is ready real for the race.

bomb-ready horses, always

One thing I noticed about Assmussen is that if his horses don't get bet, they tend not to run well and if they get bet more than you think they should, they often run better than you would have expected. I never checked it in detail by owner, but I suspect someone is betting.

[kid sapphire]

So....... what is your connection to Ness? Do you work for him? Are you related? Why are you so quick to defend him?

In one post you say he is great at "fixing" horses, and you challenge anyone to prove that he is using illegal drugs. Now in this last post you say he is using them liberally to win races, and since everyone is doing it and it is the industry standard that makes it ok. Well which is it?

I don't work for Ness, actually I don't work. The "authorized reseller guy" posted some 2010 stats on Ness. I asked how many starters he had in 2011 and how many violations.... "crickets". They all use drugs daily, suggesting that horses dont race on drugs for the very best barns is crazy. Ever see how much better Shug does in Ky.? I wonder why and nobody is a bigger fan of Phipp's/Shug then I. Ness must be using drugs but who cares aparrently not were he races. Drugs are part of the game future HoF trainer Todd A Pletcher's horses run like machines in Florida then they come to NY and either die of Liver failure or run 1 or 2 big races and faded into the sunset. Wake up folks its Juice City at all the track just some are better then others. Ness rocks!

[thaskalos]

How may starters did he have in 2011 and how many violations. Apparently what everyone fails to realize in racing is violations are a part of the game the same way speeding and parking tickets are part of the expense of running a trucking company. Every trainer uses drugs daily some like Ness use them liberally to achieve better results the industry is OK with it Obviously as virtually nothing is done to fix the issue. If you are Ness whats the big deal if you get days and a fine when the rewards are so great.


This is quite a change from your prior post in this thread...where you claim that you can't see "nothing wrong" with what Ness is doing. You even said that people were being "jealous" for criticizing him.

Now you say that cheating suspensions for trainers are (or should be) the same as speeding and parking violations are to a trucking company. A mere occupational hazzard.

Very nice.

You leave out, of course, that when a trainer "cheats", he is really screwing just the bettor...instead of the "establishment".

[thaskalos]

I don't work for Ness, actually I don't work. The "authorized reseller guy" posted some 2010 stats on Ness. I asked how many starters he had in 2011 and how many violations.... "crickets". They all use drugs daily, suggesting that horses dont race on drugs for the very best barns is crazy. Ever see how much better Shug does in Ky.? I wonder why and nobody is a bigger fan of Phipp's/Shug then I. Ness must be using drugs but who cares aparrently not were he races. Drugs are part of the game future HoF trainer Todd A Pletcher's horses run like machines in Florida then they come to NY and either die of Liver failure or run 1 or 2 big races and faded into the sunset. Wake up folks its Juice City at all the track just some are better then others. Ness rocks!

So does Mike Chambers...and JC Guerrero.

Let's start handicapping trainers instead of horses, and then the problem is solved.

[kid sapphire]

This is quite a change from your prior post in this thread...where you claim that you can't see "nothing wrong" with what Ness is doing. You even said that people were being "jealous" for criticizing him.

Now you say that cheating suspensions for trainers are (or should be) the same as speeding and parking violations are to a trucking company. A mere occupational hazzard.

Very nice.

You leave out, of course, that when a trainer "cheats", he is really screwing just the bettor...instead of the "establishment".

There is nothing wrong because when you get caught the ramifications are insignificant. Hence Ness fixes horses better then other jealous trainers who are unwilling or not smart enough to cheat better then him. And yes violations are nothing more then speeding tickets as long as you spae them out in different states you are free to keep driving. Wake up its a shell game and Ness plays it better then others

[kid sapphire]

So does Mike Chambers...and JC Guerrero.

Let's start handicapping trainers instead of horses, and then the problem is solved.

Were have you been? Glad I brought you your morning coffee?

[thaskalos]

There is nothing wrong because when you get caught the ramifications are insignificant. Hence Ness fixes horses better then other jealous trainers for are unwilling or not smart enough to cheat better then him. And yes violations are nothing more then speeding tickets as long as you spae them out in different states you are free to keep driving. Wake up its a shell game and Ness plays it better then others

Stick to the jewelry business kid...:)

[HoofedInTheChest]

Ness Rocks? If you like getting a 40 cent return on a $2 wager than ya........ he's Elvis!
Personally i wont bet a race when a Ness horse is entered, it's pointless! You have a very twisted outlook on horse racing...... you must be a bridgejumper.

[Striker]

Very nice analysis, but you are not telling the whole story here. Ness owned this horse before. In 2010, Ness owned this horse and the horse won some nice races at PID and Tampa Bay. He was actually running against tougher competition then. I'm skeptical of Ness, but the horse does have some talent and it is not like his figures improved so dramatically after Ness re-claimed. Frankly, the race was not that good of a field at all.
Thanks for pointing this out I didn't even look that far back. So, Ness now has 6 of the horses wins as he won at Mnr, Pid and Tampa in 2010. With as big as the Midwest operation is, Ness obviously must of kept what had worked exceptionally well for this particular horse in his long term memory when he lost this horse on 11/28/10 and 11-12 months later executed the winning game plan again. What I really want to know is why Ness wasn't even involved with the horse for at least 2 months after the claim at Arlington on 8/28? Especially now that you have brought the fact that Ness had this horse before. You don't make money in the claiming game by letting the horse sit in a stall and not race for almost 3 months like they did with Repenter.

[Valuist]

Is Laurel where guys who've been banned everywhere else end up? Didn't Kirk Ziadie race there for awhile? Ness is from the Midwest, trains for Midwest (literally) yet for the most part seems to be away from his Cby and Haw roots.

[turninforhome10]

Testing has always been about catching the trainer using illegal drugs to enhance performance. The whole philosophy is about catching a live agent of an active drug or the metabolites of the drugs have been in the system using Gas Chromophotography which is when the drug is found through matching patterns of standards against the unknown sample( test). The only positives are those drugs which are knowns and have patterns, as to say if the drug is unknown it can't be a positive. Staying ahead of the vets would be a battle for the testing agencies.
My premise is that catching the drug and establishing it as a positive is far harder than using the known parameters of a horses normal ranges for the physiologic components and establishing that certain deviations from normal ranges could only be because of medication inducement.
Point
TCO2 has proved useful in the detection of alkalizing agents used for the reduction of lactic acidosis.
Heres the hook
My thought is the horses that are moving up 10-15 lengths in speed figures and rebreaking in the stretch are being exposed to red blood cell adulterants which change the horses physiology to induce a chemical anemia thereby changing the horses bone marrow to make and release more red cells. To reap the full effects of the chemical induced anemia would take approx thirty days give or take a week. The next time the horse runs it will just like any other blood doping type performance. The reduced lactic acid due to increased oxygen carrying capacity allow the horse enhanced aerobic respiration and the "rebreak". The horse in question would have have parameter changes in both the RDW (the variation in size of the red cell population) and Retics( young immature red cells still containing RNA). Run a cheap 25-35 CBC and it would catch this very easy rather than trying to find the drug used to cause the situation using a very expensive methodology that is very limited. The horses body chemistry does not lie and cannot be masked while its urine can.
SEE study
http://jap.physiology.org/content/99/3/915.full

My abbreviated point ( daughter on phone)
If testing was geared more towards the normal ranges of equine physiology and states of deviation from long term effects of drugs rather than catching the trainer red handed we might just be helping not just ourselves as bettors but also the very animal in which we try to make our living.

[billyball]

Ness had a horse entered today at Tampa today in the 7th and 10th races---wins both and gets a 12-1 and 35-1 shot to fill out the p4---30K pool---not sure what take out is but each 50 cent ticket paid about $3500---I had it n in my browser but did not pull the trigger for a Ness-all-all-Ness ticket---was only about $33---

[Not4Love]

11 starts . 8 wins. What are we going to do about this guy. I'd say protest Tampa, but right now it's the only track I can hit. Have to avoid any race with Ness in it. Anyone wonder how the 2nd and 3rd place horses are effected next time out? From what i can tell. They Bounce. I"m starting to use this angle.

[tzipi]

No one cares if these guys win at obscene rates. That's clear. Has anybody here stopped playing the game because of it? There's more guys than Ness out there.
If they wanted it stopped, they would give out 1-2 year bans for serious drugs positives.

[cj]

No one cares if these guys win at obscene rates. That's clear. Has anybody here stopped playing the game because of it? There's more guys than Ness out there.
If they wanted it stopped, they would give out 1-2 year bans for serious drugs positives.
Check handle lately? Seems to me a lot of people have quit betting.

[lamboguy]

check out david wells, he must have won 4 or 5 races in various tracks today.

it seems that all these super trainers are expanding their operation's.

truthfully, i have no clue how they keep winning. what i do know is that the horses that win for them don't win for others.

[sammy the sage]

ITPP

[tbwinner]

ITPP

Race 7 Tampa 1/20

WATCH THE REPLAY

The Midwest horse was beat. It rebroke in stretch, something you do NOT see very often, and wins. I was quite honestly surprised.

[Striker]

Race 7 Tampa 1/20

WATCH THE REPLAY

The Midwest horse was beat. It rebroke in stretch, something you do NOT see very often, and wins. I was quite honestly surprised.
Maybe the horse learned this new tactic in the 2 months he was off before he started working again 12/12.

[JustRalph]

Check handle lately? Seems to me a lot of people have quit betting.

Including me. Just about done.

This thread is illustrative of what's wrong with this sport

There are lots of other places I can put my money, and don't have to worry about being cheated.

[classhandicapper]

Including me. Just about done.

This thread is illustrative of what's wrong with this sport

There are lots of other places I can put my money, and don't have to worry about being cheated.

This kind of stuff has been going on for decades. It's just more public now because everyone has stats for multiple circuits, knows all the "suspect" trainers, and it gets discussed on forums like these.

I'm not condoning cheating, but I think if you are going to play this game you have to become very familiar with the trainers on your circuit and consider it another major factor to weigh. There are profits in the trainer factor.

[proximity]

check out david wells, he must have won 4 or 5 races in various tracks today.

it seems that all these super trainers are expanding their operation's.

truthfully, i have no clue how they keep winning. what i do know is that the horses that win for them don't win for others.

your phone conversations with wells are just about stephanie beattie and the price of gold?:confused:

[thaskalos]

This kind of stuff has been going on for decades. It's just more public now because everyone has stats for multiple circuits, knows all the "suspect" trainers, and it gets discussed on forums like these.

I'm not condoning cheating, but I think if you are going to play this game you have to become very familiar with the trainers on your circuit and consider it another major factor to weigh. There are profits in the trainer factor.
There may be profits in the trainer factor...but this is not the game we fell in love with.

The trainer factor should be a SECONDARY consideration...and trainers like Jamie Ness, Mike Chambers, and Juan Carlos Guerrero are threatening to make it the biggest factor in the handicapping game.

I don't know about anybody else, but I became fascinated with this game because of the handicapping process...where the horseplayer -- like a great detective -- searches through (and between) the past performance lines looking for clues, in his quest to solve the great mystery which would unfold later in the day.

The thrill you get when you put the pieces of the puzzle together, and then watch as your opinion is validated in the afternoon, is worth almost as much as the money you receive when you cash your tickets.

I, for one, have no interest in playing a game where the horseplayer's role is relegated to handicapping the trainers first...and then the horses.

[lamboguy]

There may be profits in the trainer factor...but this is not the game we fell in love with.

The trainer factor should be a SECONDARY consideration...and trainers like Jamie Ness, Mike Chambers, and Juan Carlos Guerrero are threatening to make it the biggest factor in the handicapping game.

I don't know about anybody else, but I became fascinated with this game because of the handicapping process...where the horseplayer -- like a great detective -- searches through (and between) the past performance lines looking for clues, in his quest to solve the great mystery which would unfold later in the day.

The thrill you get when you put the pieces of the puzzle together, and then watch as your opinion is validated in the afternoon, is worth almost as much as the money you receive when you cash your tickets.

I, for one, have no interest in playing a game where the horseplayer's role is relegated to handicapping the trainers first...and then the horses.i just wonder if you have figured this out, and i am sure many others have figured the same thing, how come the people in charge of racing haven't?

in major league sports such as football and basketball they make some type of an effort to level off the playing field with salary caps and draft choices. they have done studies in sports that suggest when the same teams win year after year the sport loses fan base. is this similar as to what has taken place in horse racing for to long? the effects have certainly set in. i also wonder if a guy like you that likes to bet a decent sum of money can take cut in wagering due to pool sizes?

[classhandicapper]

There may be profits in the trainer factor...but this is not the game we fell in love with.

The trainer factor should be a SECONDARY consideration...and trainers like Jamie Ness, Mike Chambers, and Juan Carlos Guerrero are threatening to make it the biggest factor in the handicapping game.

I don't know about anybody else, but I became fascinated with this game because of the handicapping process...where the horseplayer -- like a great detective -- searches through (and between) the past performance lines looking for clues, in his quest to solve the great mystery which would unfold later in the day.

The thrill you get when you put the pieces of the puzzle together, and then watch as your opinion is validated in the afternoon, is worth almost as much as the money you receive when you cash your tickets.

I, for one, have no interest in playing a game where the horseplayer's role is relegated to handicapping the trainers first...and then the horses.

I understand what you are saying, but you may have missed my point.

The game really hasn't changed much over the years.

If there was a forum like this years ago we'd be discussing Oscar Barrera, Peter Ferriola etc... and one or two other trainers from every other circuit. I've been playing for around 35 years. I can't recall a period when I wasn't trying to figure out if trainer "X" was going to move his horse ups and what that big drop down meant etc....

Until we can test for everything and get really tough on violators it's going to continue.

[HoofedInTheChest]

There may be profits in the trainer factor...but this is not the game we fell in love with.

The trainer factor should be a SECONDARY consideration...and trainers like Jamie Ness, Mike Chambers, and Juan Carlos Guerrero are threatening to make it the biggest factor in the handicapping game.

I don't know about anybody else, but I became fascinated with this game because of the handicapping process...where the horseplayer -- like a great detective -- searches through (and between) the past performance lines looking for clues, in his quest to solve the great mystery which would unfold later in the day.

The thrill you get when you put the pieces of the puzzle together, and then watch as your opinion is validated in the afternoon, is worth almost as much as the money you receive when you cash your tickets.

I, for one, have no interest in playing a game where the horseplayer's role is relegated to handicapping the trainers first...and then the horses.
Spot on as always, when i move to a new track the first thing i do is spend a week or so investigating the trainers to see who has the goods and who doesn't. Ive been following Tampa since opening day and have come to the conclusion that it's a waste of my time, going through ten races to find one bettable race isn't for me.
Thaskalos is right, it's not about the horses anymore, were handicapping trainers, i'm glad i dont have to put up with this sh*t at Woodbine.

Na exete kalh hmera

[thaskalos]

Spot on as always, when i move to a new track the first thing i do is spend a week or so investigating the trainers to see who has the goods and who doesn't. Ive been following Tampa since opening day and have come to the conclusion that it's a waste of my time, going through ten races to find one bettable race isn't for me.
Thaskalos is right, it's not about the horses anymore, were handicapping trainers, i'm glad i dont have to put up with this sh*t at Woodbine.

Na exete kalh hmera.

Kai esi episis file mou...:ThmbUp:

[cj]

I understand what you are saying, but you may have missed my point.

The game really hasn't changed much over the years.

If there was a forum like this years ago we'd be discussing Oscar Barrera, Peter Ferriola etc... and one or two other trainers from every other circuit. I've been playing for around 35 years. I can't recall a period when I wasn't trying to figure out if trainer "X" was going to move his horse ups and what that big drop down meant etc....

Until we can test for everything and get really tough on violators it's going to continue.

I believe you have missed the point, or can you show me in years past 20+ 30% trainers around the country? Trainers were always a factor, but now they are THE factor above all else. I've been following the game for nearly 30 years, and this isn't the game I remember. Oscar and Pete would have been nobodies today.

[lamboguy]

your phone conversations with wells are just about stephanie beattie and the price of gold?:confused:do you reallly think that i would go into his personal life about a girlfriend he had a beef with?

we only discuss the gold market in the new asian exchange around 3:00 in the morning.

[aaron]

I believe you have missed the point, or can you show me in years past 20+ 30% trainers around the country? Trainers were always a factor, but now they are THE factor above all else. I've been following the game for nearly 30 years, and this isn't the game I remember. Oscar and Pete would have been nobodies today.
I can't tell you about circuits across the country,but in NY trainers have been doing this for over 20 years. I remember one winter meet about 15-20 years ago that Moschera,Ferriola,and Hushion were live almost every day,and the edge was to find which one wasn't. Even before Oscar,there were trainers you had to follow,but he brought following trainers to a new level.I remember making money on trainer patterns,before they printed the information in the Daily Racing Form.

[Beachbabe]

I don't think we're talking "trainer patterns" here.
Everyone knows (or should know) that you have to take trainer "patterns" into consideration e.g. first off a claim; first time starters; turf to dirt; second time off a layoff; etc.
What we're talking about is reversal of form; improvement off a former trainer (who is pretty capable in his own right) to the point where the horse improves his figures 10, 15 pts and after the horse leaves the supertrainer's barn he reverts back to his up-the-track form.

[cj]

I can't tell you about circuits across the country,but in NY trainers have been doing this for over 20 years. I remember one winter meet about 15-20 years ago that Moschera,Ferriola,and Hushion were live almost every day,and the edge was to find which one wasn't. Even before Oscar,there were trainers you had to follow,but he brought following trainers to a new level.I remember making money on trainer patterns,before they printed the information in the Daily Racing Form.

I know all about NY racing. I followed it religiously except for a brief spell in the mid 80s during my first few years of military service. If you think those guys were winning 30, 40, even 50% of the claim, you are mistaken. I'm not saying trainers haven't always been a big part of the game, but it has changed drastically in the last 10 years. Those guys also weren't claiming of Allen Jerkens and Frank Martin and turning horses into winners.

[Valuist]

IMO, the turning point came around 1996, when Frank Passero won 12 straight races at GP, then a guy won 10-11 straight at the FG, and Pat Byrne went something like 14 for 17 at Churchill. We had never seen anything like it before, and now multiple guys were putting up insane numbers.

I've been following the game since the early 80s and this kind of nonsense was nowhere near as rampant then as it has been in the past 15 years.

Simply put- it IS ruining the game.

[aaron]

I know all about NY racing. I followed it religiously except for a brief spell in the mid 80s during my first few years of military service. If you think those guys were winning 30, 40, even 50% of the claim, you are mistaken. I'm not saying trainers haven't always been a big part of the game, but it has changed drastically in the last 10 years. Those guys also weren't claiming of Allen Jerkens and Frank Martin and turning horses into winners.
How many trainers can you name in NY that are winning 40 or 50 percent off the claim. Rudy rodriguez is about 28 percent off the claim,if that much.I agree the game has changed and become a super trainer game,but that has happened because real trainers like Mac Miller and Woody Stephens have disappeared from the game.Trainers of that ilk were talented enough to bring horse up to races,by using subtle trainer moves.Todays game is more of a vet's game.In NY how many trainers have maintained a percentage of over 30 percent off the claim in the last 10 years ? The biggest change in the game is actually the decline of real trainers.

[proximity]

do you reallly think that i would go into his personal life about a girlfriend he had a beef with?
.

uhh? that's what i was saying. you're both great racing men yet you never discuss racing?

[cj]

How many trainers can you name in NY that are winning 40 or 50 percent off the claim. Rudy rodriguez is about 28 percent off the claim,if that much.I agree the game has changed and become a super trainer game,but that has happened because real trainers like Mac Miller and Woody Stephens have disappeared from the game.Trainers of that ilk were talented enough to bring horse up to races,by using subtle trainer moves.Todays game is more of a vet's game.In NY how many trainers have maintained a percentage of over 30 percent off the claim in the last 10 years ? The biggest change in the game is actually the decline of real trainers.

When did this become about New York? They are probably the best circuit in the country in this regard at least. I'm not saying perfect, but better than most. Even so, Oscar couldn't hold a candle to Rudy percentage wise...different time, different game. One difference was once Oscar got one going well, they went well for several races most of the time.

[aaron]

When did this become about New York? They are probably the best circuit in the country in this regard at least. I'm not saying perfect, but better than most. Even so, Oscar couldn't hold a candle to Rudy percentage wise...different time, different game. One difference was once Oscar got one going well, they went well for several races most of the time.
I don't know what Oscar's percentage was and I agree,he did keep horses going for a few starts at least.
I think if you check out Dutrow some of his horses maintain their form for a while. There is a horse named Associate that started out for Dutrow and ran big numbers,then ran 3rd in a Grade 1 race in California. I don't remember if this horse was off a claim or not.You probably have him in your data base and can check the numbers. I know on sheets he was very fast.

[lamboguy]

uhh? that's what i was saying. you're both great racing men yet you never discuss racing?that's what happens when you go bad

[proximity]

today ness won at tampa with a maryland claim off super owner robert cole jr.

cole jr entering a speed horse who had recently won an allowance race in for a tag looked a bit negative to me (and the horse would lose the claimer, running a cruddy 48 beyer) but of course after a brief rest he comes right back and scores for ness.

[Track Phantom]

IMO, the turning point came around 1996, when Frank Passero won 12 straight races at GP, then a guy won 10-11 straight at the FG, and Pat Byrne went something like 14 for 17 at Churchill. We had never seen anything like it before, and now multiple guys were putting up insane numbers.

I've been following the game since the early 80s and this kind of nonsense was nowhere near as rampant then as it has been in the past 15 years.

Simply put- it IS ruining the game.

EXCELLENT point out here. You couldn't be more right on. Right about the time all sports started getting dirty with steriods, etc, racing started having trainers put up obscene numbers. In about 2003, Jeff Mullins claimed a maiden for $20k and it had run three times and hardly a step. Mullins put it into MSW and was bet down from 20-1 morning line to 7-2 and won for fun. There was an investigation and articles written, if I remember correctly.

People that say the game was the same 30 years ago are absolute morons that have no idea how to analyze data.

As far as Ness goes, I'm a long time Canterbury player and he was off the charts cheating back when he was there, too. A few years back, he was caught with something, switched his operation over to Hawthorne and promptly went 1 for 103 with about 10 in the money. The guy is the most crooked in the game.

[classhandicapper]

I believe you have missed the point, or can you show me in years past 20+ 30% trainers around the country? Trainers were always a factor, but now they are THE factor above all else. I've been following the game for nearly 30 years, and this isn't the game I remember. Oscar and Pete would have been nobodies today.

I didn't follow the national scene much.

I do recall periods where Shug was winning with close to 30% of his starts in NY, but most people think he was clean and that was with high quality stock. Other guys used to win at that clip for a meet here or there but not long term.

I recall Beyer writing about Maryland racing a long time ago saying the horse players there were throwing everything out and just playing trainers.

The biggest difference I see now is that the "suspects" in the old days tended to stay with claimers and eventually went really cold. They used to move horses up monstrously when they were hot though. The best part (at least from a gambling perspective) was that private purchases were not noted in the DRF. So you could get more of a price.

Now the "suspects" also train allowance and stakes horses and keep winning at high rates for years. Maybe the quality of horses and smaller fields are contributing to the win percentages a little.

I may actually have a copy of some trainer stats I published with some friends years ago (NY Racing Monthly). If I can find a copy, I'll take a look at some of the leading trainers in NY during the time of publication.

[Rise Over Run]

I think if you check out Dutrow some of his horses maintain their form for a while. There is a horse named Associate that started out for Dutrow and ran big numbers,then ran 3rd in a Grade 1 race in California. I don't remember if this horse was off a claim or not.You probably have him in your data base and can check the numbers. I know on sheets he was very fast.

I don't have any PP's or race records in front of me, but Associate was definitely a claim by Dutrow. I'm pretty sure out of a $35k N2L and off of Linda Rice. First race for Dr. D he destroyed a group of N2L claimers in a very fast time. Followed that up a few weeks later in early November by crushing an allowance field. I thought they might take a shot at the Cigar Mile, but he showed up out west and ran 3rd in the Malibu the day after Christmas.

[Pell Mell]

Here's a thread from almost a year ago about the same stuff.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80719&highlight=lassiter+vance

[Not4Love]

Ness wins 3 more today. It seems like tampas numbers are down this year. Anyone know?????

[tbwinner]

Ness wins 3 more today. It seems like tampas numbers are down this year. Anyone know?????

He is at 46% wins at Tampa. Most of their barn is based elsewhere from Tampa this year, most likely due to those stinky purses there. They have bigger strings at Laurel/Penn and Oaklawn.

[PICSIX]

Ness has 14 winners in his last 16 starts. Math guys....what are the odds of this happening? In my mind, they would be off the charts :confused: :confused:

Thanks,

Mike

[Valuist]

Ness started at Canterbury. He left long ago. He came to Hawthorne. Took him a year or two to get going. He isn't there anymore. I would not be surprised if he was told he wasn't welcome there anymore. Yes Midwest T-breds race there, but not for Ness.

Interesting he ends up racing mostly in Maryland, besides Tampa. When Kirk Ziadie was banished from Calder, didn't he end up in Maryland?

[Wingtips]

Hmmm.... Ness runs at Delaware, MD tracks, Presque Isle, Penn, but not at all at Parx where a chemist like JCG had full run. Would it be possible that they quietly won't take his entries? Maybe the local heavyweight Horseman's Association decided it didn't want the locals to get raped on a daily basis.

[lamboguy]

Hmmm.... Ness runs at Delaware, MD tracks, Presque Isle, Penn, but not at all at Parx where a chemist like JCG had full run. Would it be possible that they quietly won't take his entries? Maybe the local heavyweight Horseman's Association decided it didn't want the locals to get raped on a daily basis.i don't think that the beef they have with NESS in Parx got anything to do with chemistry.

[tbwinner]

i don't think that the beef they have with NESS in Parx got anything to do with chemistry.

What is the 'beef', if any, then?



It is quite surprising that Midwest/Ness horses do not run at Parx.

[1st time lasix]

At the Florida simulcast spot i frequent...the group of better handicappers considers Ness "confess"..... the ultimate poster boy for drug related cheating. The first thing they do when reviewing the regional Tampa Downs card is to see where Ness is enterered. He can be moving up...off a claim ....or returning from a long layoff without works...he is virtually never a throwout in the multirace exotics because all are 100% convinced he cheats. No one can convince these experienced handicappers otherwise based on millions of races watched and played. He has the "magic potion" that either the track management ignores or the testing services can't detect. I suspect he is not alone with this particular substance which allow horses to outrun all past parameters. {See Brad Cox at Midwest} In terms of an angle.....the only way I can make money from it is through a key race method. I memorize all the names of his winning horses. When a beaten horse in one of these fields comes back elsewhere....they sometimes outrun their odds

[picojim]

2 for 2 today at Delaware

amazing

[horses4courses]

2 for 2 today at Delaware

amazing

He was, also, batting 1.000 going into today there.
Best I can tell, he is now perfect with 4 starters there.

I watched his winner in the 4th race :eek:
The remaining half of an entry, the horse won in a canter by daylight.
Went off at 3-2, and had been 1-2 for much of the time.
Haven't seen an easier winner in a long time......

[nijinski]

At the Florida simulcast spot i frequent...the group of better handicappers considers Ness "confess"..... the ultimate poster boy for drug related cheating. The first thing they do when reviewing the regional Tampa Downs card is to see where Ness is enterered. He can be moving up...off a claim ....or returning from a long layoff without works...he is virtually never a throwout in the multirace exotics because all are 100% convinced he cheats. No one can convince these experienced handicappers otherwise based on millions of races watched and played. He has the "magic potion" that either the track management ignores or the testing services can't detect. I suspect he is not alone with this particular substance which allow horses to outrun all past parameters. {See Brad Cox at Midwest} In terms of an angle.....the only way I can make money from it is through a key race method. I memorize all the names of his winning horses. When a beaten horse in one of these fields comes back elsewhere....they sometimes outrun their odds

Until the "magic potion" is detected then Ness isn't doing anything illegal IMO.It's not like no one is watching his outfit.

Midwest has a facility for layups , so that can explain horses winning off those long layoffs. Doubt they have been standing in a stall for months and just pop.

[horses4courses]

Since May 4th, Ness has won with 22 of 28 starters.
Unreal.....
http://www.drf.com/news/trainer-jamie-ness-tremendous-hot-streak

[Not4Love]

How can anyone justify betting a race with Jamie Ness. It's insane . We have to stop betting races when he is involved . Only way to stop this crap.

[Some_One]

How can anyone justify betting a race with Jamie Ness. It's insane . We have to stop betting races when he is involved . Only way to stop this crap.

Totally agree, I pass all Midwest T-Bred races

[JustRalph]

How can anyone justify betting a race with Jamie Ness. It's insane . We have to stop betting races when he is involved . Only way to stop this crap.

Nice dream........but it would be incredible if it could be done.

[Striker]

I pass all Midwest T-Bred races
They have started out a little cold to the Arlington meet with Roger B as they are only 1-3-1 from 17 starts. But I have said this in other Ness threads, and that is Roger B moves up very few of the horses that Midwest transfers to him from Ness, BUT Ness can do remarkable things with the horses that are sent to him from Roger B.

[bks]

Imagine writing an article praising the extraordinary accomplishments of a trainer without a single quote attributed to him, and without a writer willing to put his name to the story.

http://www.drf.com/news/trainer-jamie-ness-tremendous-hot-streak

His "achievement" exists in a kind of parallel realm where he gets to keep the external goods associated with the achievement [the money], but does not earn the respect of his peers [who are also not quoted] or the prestige that would typically be associated with a major training feat.

It's a very unhealthy situation. The kind you see in a dying enterprise.

[Some_One]

They have started out a little cold to the Arlington meet with Roger B as they are only 1-3-1 from 17 starts. But I have said this in other Ness threads, and that is Roger B moves up very few of the horses that Midwest transfers to him from Ness, BUT Ness can do remarkable things with the horses that are sent to him from Roger B.

Ness also is cold on turf routes (similar to poly), I think the advantage of drug use is not as great on those races as it is not all about speed and getting to numb the horse to not feel the pain in those races

[Valuist]

They have started out a little cold to the Arlington meet with Roger B as they are only 1-3-1 from 17 starts. But I have said this in other Ness threads, and that is Roger B moves up very few of the horses that Midwest transfers to him from Ness, BUT Ness can do remarkable things with the horses that are sent to him from Roger B.

Seems like Midwest horses don't do as well on Polytrack.

As for Brueggeman, that may be true but he moves up horses off everyone else not named Dutrow or Guerrero.

[Valuist]

I think the advantage of drug use is not as great on those races as it is not all about speed and getting to numb the horse to not feel the pain in those races

I have always felt the same way. Don't have any hard numbers or evidence to support it; but I've seen too many examples of move up trainers who don't do as well on turf and/or Poly.

[1st time lasix]

[QUOTE=nijinski]Until the "magic potion" is detected then Ness isn't doing anything illegal IMO.It's not like no one is watching his outfit.

*****So just so i get this attitude of yours correct.....say if a golfer moves the ball in the rough away from his competetors and isn't caught....or say if a married spouse sleeps with another person and isn't confronted---it isn't wrong in your book unless he is caught. Oh my! Don't ever invite me to play cards with you.....partner with you or leven eave something of value near you unattended. :rolleyes:

[nijinski]

[QUOTE=nijinski]Until the "magic potion" is detected then Ness isn't doing anything illegal IMO.It's not like no one is watching his outfit.

*****So just so i get this attitude of yours correct.....say if a golfer moves the ball in the rough away from his competetors and isn't caught....or say if a married spouse sleeps with another person and isn't confronted---it isn't wrong in your book unless he is caught. Oh my! Don't ever invite me to play cards with you.....partner with you or leven eave something of value near you unattended. :rolleyes:
It's just hard to fathom that he has his hands on a chemical that is so great and it isn't showing up .That's my point . If it does then he's guilty .

I'm sure he's been under scrutiny and we know the barn was raided. I'm curious too . But right now I'm just very impressed with his success . If they
find something. It's then that I'll be disappointed.and pretty angry.

[nijinski]

[QUOTE=nijinski]Until the "magic potion" is detected then Ness isn't doing anything illegal IMO.It's not like no one is watching his outfit.

*****So just so i get this attitude of yours correct.....say if a golfer moves the ball in the rough away from his competetors and isn't caught....or say if a married spouse sleeps with another person and isn't confronted---it isn't wrong in your book unless he is caught. Oh my! Don't ever invite me to play cards with you.....partner with you or leven eave something of value near you unattended. :rolleyes:
Let me add that Midwest as an owner certainly helps ,as they spend the money many small owners probably couldn't for care and training. This is an outfit that is leasing stalls in an agreement with Hawthorne to train 100 of their youngsters for the summer.

I am taken back at that last sentence . You wouldn't leave something of
value near me unattended. Wow , you don't know me , but would write such an insult. Insane and sad!

[molson721]

[QUOTE=1st time lasix]
It's just hard to fathom that he has his hands on a chemical that is so great and it isn't showing up .That's my point . If it does then he's guilty .

I'm sure he's been under scrutiny and we know the barn was raided. I'm curious too . But right now I'm just very impressed with his success . If they
find something. It's then that I'll be disappointed.and pretty angry.

I'm sure you think Barry Bonds never took steroids too.

[nijinski]

[QUOTE=nijinski]

I'm sure you think Barry Bonds never took steroids too.

If you choose to judge me and think that I'm that naive , you haven't read my prior post .

[Striker]

[QUOTE=1st time lasix]
But right now I'm just very impressed with his success . If they
find something. It's then that I'll be disappointed.and pretty angry.
He's been caught many times before. He is the industry leader in medical violations per start.

[BIG49010]

[QUOTE=nijinski]
He's been caught many times before. He is the industry leader in medical violations per start.


Can anybody answer this "what if type question", if Ness had a magic juice that with modern testing they figure it out, could they go back several years to every horse that they had a sample on and retest them and recover all the purse money from Midwest?

Would this bankrupt them?

[nijinski]

[QUOTE=nijinski]
He's been caught many times before. He is the industry leader in medical violations per start.
I am aware that he's had overages of meds in the kenalog and prednisone family. All too familar with the fact tha a large number of other trainers did as well . With those same meds.
I haven't seen him on recent rulings , perhaps I missed them.
While I'm not thrilled with anti inflammatory overages , they have been in used widely for a long time and I don't see that they would move a horse up .
I am NOT an advocate of running a sore horse that's been injected . That's a ruling that racing officials needs to deal with .

I think the the other posters are arguing with me over the non detectable
drug use that they feel is enhancing the Ness horses. My answer is that there
is no proof .
Could he possibly be a gifted young horseman with the claimers . I lean towards yes . If he is caught enhancing , again ,I'll be disappointed.

[sammy the sage]

for the 48th time...research "ITPP"...remember...google...

Allows red blood cells to use oxygen at a higher rate...no CURRENT testing in USA...

[ezpace]

for the 48th time...research "ITPP"...remember...google...

Allows red blood cells to use oxygen at a higher rate...no CURRENT testing in USA...
************************
Right Sammy thats the main one of the dozen they can't test for in
usa

[nijinski]

for the 48th time...research "ITPP"...remember...google...

Allows red blood cells to use oxygen at a higher rate...no CURRENT testing in USA...
According to Professor Tobin , Ky. It would take a pretty massive amount of
of ITPP to to enhance a horse . That's if in fact it does.

[Track Phantom]

[QUOTE=Striker]Could he possibly be a gifted young horseman with the claimers . I lean towards yes . If he is caught enhancing , again ,I'll be disappointed.

Absurd. Anyone with a 4th grade education and the ability to read past performances couldn't possibly make a plausible argument that this guy is winning legitimately.

However, if you want to say the still udetetctable drug make his practices legitimate because he hasn't been caught, it is a logical statement.

The reality is the guy is making a mockery of this sport.

[sammy the sage]

According to Professor Tobin , Ky. It would take a pretty massive amount of
of ITPP to to enhance a horse . That's if in fact it does.

Banned overseas in some countries...wonder why... :rolleyes:

[thaskalos]

[QUOTE=Striker]
Could he possibly be a gifted young horseman with the claimers . I lean towards yes.

Ness is a sad testament to what this game has become...

Extreme greed on one end...and gross incompetence on the other.

And the horseplayer stuck in the middle...

[Valuist]

[QUOTE=nijinski]

Ness is a sad testament to what this game has become...

Extreme greed on one end...and gross incompetence on the other.

And the horseplayer stuck in the middle...

:ThmbUp: Well put.

[lamboguy]

it certainly looks like MIDWEST THOROUGHBRED CORPORATION are playing this game like there is no tomorrow.

if it was up to me, i would ban the use of CLEN BEUTEROL as fast as a ROGER CLEMONS fastball.

[bettheoverlay]

The aspect I can't grasp is why the other horsemen he's running against don't revolt, race elsewhere, or boycott the races he's entered in. Ness is a disaster for gambling, and I would presume a disaster as well for the legitimite horsemen.

[Valuist]

Back before Calabrese moved his operation to Florida, you'd often have an Hawthorne race with two Midwest T-bred runners and two Calabrese runners. Real fun if you are the connections of one of the other runners.

[nijinski]

Absurd. Anyone with a 4th grade education and the ability to read past performances couldn't possibly make a plausible argument that this guy is winning legitimately.

However, if you want to say the still udetetctable drug make his practices legitimate because he hasn't been caught, it is a logical statement.

The reality is the guy is making a mockery of this sport.

Then why hasn't anyone ordered frozen samples to send to Hong Kong. It's been done in the case of an Australian horseman , specifically for a standardbred named Kiwi .*
BTW NO ITPP was detected , traces of arsenic were , and it was not proven that the arsenic was administered.
So are the racing authorities below the 4th grade education you mention?
Hawthorne had no problem allowing Midwest a lease for stalls and training on their track as their training facility for the summer .

[Wingtips]

it certainly looks like MIDWEST THOROUGHBRED CORPORATION are playing this game like there is no tomorrow.

if it was up to me, i would ban the use of CLEN BEUTEROL as fast as a ROGER CLEMONS fastball.

Several years ago when PA banned steroids, they also moved the clenbuterol withdrawl time 24 hours closer to raceday. I wrote the PHRC and asked them why they did this, as it seemed counterproductive to the greater good. A commission member responded via email that it was cruel to have horses breathing stale air in barns all day and it was better to have their lungs opened up via bronchial dilators. One of the moments, when added to many others, why I'm no longer an owner.

[Beachbabe]

2 for 2 so far at Delaware today. Won the third race with a horse he claimed out of his last at Tampa.
With a look at today's card, he could win 5 races and move back into the 70% win ratio at Delaware.
A track I used to like to bet, but Ness' presence and the short fields (& when the Hell will they run their first turf race...sheesh !!), make it a no-play venue for me.

[turninforhome10]

2 for 2 so far at Delaware today. Won the third race with a horse he claimed out of his last at Tampa.
With a look at today's card, he could win 5 races and move back into the 70% win ratio at Delaware.
A track I used to like to bet, but Ness' presence and the short fields (& when the Hell will they run their first turf race...sheesh !!), make it a no-play venue for me.
Exactly. He killed Tampa, now Delaware. Not even worth handicapping.

[lamboguy]

Several years ago when PA banned steroids, they also moved the clenbuterol withdrawl time 24 hours closer to raceday. I wrote the PHRC and asked them why they did this, as it seemed counterproductive to the greater good. A commission member responded via email that it was cruel to have horses breathing stale air in barns all day and it was better to have their lungs opened up via bronchial dilators. One of the moments, when added to many others, why I'm no longer an owner.now that explains this to me, i didn't know they changed withdrawel time. stupid isn't it?

[Beachbabe]

I may have put the hex on Mr Ness. He's lost the last two races & is now a paltry 2 for 4 with only 2 more entries to go.

[turninforhome10]

I may have put the hex on Mr Ness. He's lost the last two races & is now a paltry 2 for 4 with only 2 more entries to go.
Rattle them voodoo bones, keep it going :jump:

[mannyberrios]

:bang: :bang: I may have put the hex on Mr Ness. He's lost the last two races & is now a paltry 2 for 4 with only 2 more entries to go.
:lol: :lol: :lol: That was great! Please, if the horse is 5-1 or more, take off the hex

[Beachbabe]

Rattle them voodoo bones, keep it going :jump:


LOL
Even my voodoo doll couldn't over come Schlossed at 2-5. :(

[Beachbabe]

:bang: :bang:
:lol: :lol: :lol: That was great! Please, if the horse is 5-1 or more, take off the hex

It'll be a cold day in Hell when you see a Ness runner at 5-1 at Delaware.

[mannyberrios]

It'll be a cold day in Hell when you see a Ness runner at 5-1 at Delaware.
Your right,

[Beachbabe]

On wednesday & thursday, July 11 & 12, Ness saddled 4 horses at Delaware and had.............................4 winners.

What a talent !!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

[cj]

I meant to post some of what is here:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92353

in this thread.

[Dony55]

[QUOTE=tbwinner]The more amazing thing is how they can do it and keep such an operation at a high win % with so many horses. They do spot their horses well but it's unbelievable how EVERY ONE improves under a Ness/Midwest claim.[/QUOTE0]

I probaby bet 200 or so races a week since i started about a year ago and man i learned the hard way, losing to this Ness far to often until i finally caught on and jumped on the waggon. Honestly what makes his horses special is the way the run in the stretch, firstly they all look good and than that extra juice they have to keep the chest up and explode to the finish is incredible. They guy is either doing something other trainers dont have or they have a way of training horses not many others can. But he is not alone, the Engleharts, there at FL who is also something of claims lately.

[Dony55]

The aspect I can't grasp is why the other horsemen he's running against don't revolt, race elsewhere, or boycott the races he's entered in. Ness is a disaster for gambling, and I would presume a disaster as well for the legitimite horsemen.

Not really the amazing thing is people are stubborn and look at races before the trainer change and dont think the horse has a chance, in fact its often with Ness and even Englehart you get high odds sometimes so high your wander if you can bet them, when you should almost always at good odds.

[mannyberrios]

If I start betting Mr.Ness horses, he would drop to 5%

[Beachbabe]

Not really the amazing thing is people are stubborn and look at races before the trainer change and dont think the horse has a chance, in fact its often with Ness and even Englehart you get high odds sometimes so high your wander if you can bet them, when you should almost always at good odds.


I can tell you, you don't get "high" odds with Ness at Delaware.
2-1 is high for a Ness runner, there.

[mannyberrios]

I can tell you, you don't get "high" odds with Ness at Delaware.
2-1 is high for a Ness runner, there.
He had a 5/1 at AP, the other day

[tbwinner]

He had a 5/1 at AP, the other day

That was a Roger Brueggemann-trained Midwest horse, not Jamie Ness. Brueggemann does great work too, as always with Midwest stock, but doesn't have the stratospheric numbers like Ness.

[lamboguy]

That was a Roger Brueggemann-trained Midwest horse, not Jamie Ness. Brueggemann does great work too, as always with Midwest stock, but doesn't have the stratospheric numbers like Ness.that is because he is in a colony with other guys that have very similar techniques.

[Citation1947]

The more amazing thing is how they can do it and keep such an operation at a high win % with so many horses. They do spot their horses well but it's unbelievable how EVERY ONE improves under a Ness/Midwest claim.


Here is the thing that I don't believe most people think about when it comes to supposed superior horsemanship skills(and yes, I believe he is a bonafide cheat) - the guy runs at 4 or 5 different tracks, but he can't be everywhere personally to oversee the operation(or management of each individual horse), yet, regardless of which track, his winning percentage figures are off the charts. Now how can one win like that at every track(based off their supposed talents) if they aren't even there much of the time to personally evaluate, work on and improve each claim? Of course you don't have to be there when you are relying on a chemistry bag. You just need people that you can trust to carry out your orders.

[lamboguy]

Here is the thing that I don't believe most people think about when it comes to this cheats supposed superior horsemanship skills(and yes, I believe he is a bonafide cheat) - the guy runs at 4 or 5 different tracks, but he can't be everywhere personally to oversee the operation(or management of each individual horse), yet, regardless of which track, his winning percentage figures are off the charts. Now how can one win like that at every track(based off their supposed talents) if they aren't even there much of the time to personally evaluate, work on and improve each claim? Of course you don't have to be there when you are relying on a chemistry bag. You just need people that you can trust to carry out your orders.who says he is cheating? the stuff that i suspect many trainers are using is perfectly legal. it just cost a lot of money to administer. these guys have been tested over and over again and they never find anything illegal.

the stuff they are using have many variations to it. chemist's might be able to reproduce the stuff at lower cost than what it sells for on the open market.

its advertised that it doesn't slab, no test in the world will pick it up. it may be no good for the horses down the road. that part has not been proven yet. what has been proven is the more you use this stuff, the better the horses run, and if you did use it and decide to stop, the horses don't run at all. personally i would never use it on my horse because i don't trust it and i care about the well being of horses that i might send to the track.

i never believed this is possible, but i have been fooled. any trainer that is batting at high percentages is using a performance enhancement. there are to many variables to racing where it is truly impossible for these trainers to be that much better than the other guys. racing is paying a very heavy price for allowing top trainers to get away with this, they are losing customers, bettor's and owner's.

[CryingForTheHorses]

who says he is cheating? the stuff that i suspect many trainers are using is perfectly legal. it just cost a lot of money to administer. these guys have been tested over and over again and they never find anything illegal.

the stuff they are using have many variations to it. chemist's might be able to reproduce the stuff at lower cost than what it sells for on the open market.

its advertised that it doesn't slab, no test in the world will pick it up. it may be no good for the horses down the road. that part has not been proven yet. what has been proven is the more you use this stuff, the better the horses run, and if you did use it and decide to stop, the horses don't run at all. personally i would never use it on my horse because i don't trust it and i care about the well being of horses that i might send to the track.

i never believed this is possible, but i have been fooled. any trainer that is batting at high percentages is using a performance enhancement. there are to many variables to racing where it is truly impossible for these trainers to be that much better than the other guys. racing is paying a very heavy price for allowing top trainers to get away with this, they are losing customers, bettor's and owner's.


Lambo..you may be opening a can of worms here accusing high percentage trainers of cheating.Has nobody thought about how Midwest may spend what they need to help a horse without cheating.Have you thought about how certain owners would spend what it takes to fix and help their horse ailments without using anything Illegal.Im also surprised you didnt name what "They" are using.Horses will run like champions when there ailments are taken care of.I also know a certain owner who will spend whatever it takes within the rules of racing to see their horse win.Doesnt matter what the vet bill is.The purse will take care of it.

[nijinski]

Lambo..you may be opening a can of worms here accusing high percentage trainers of cheating.Has nobody thought about how Midwest may spend what they need to help a horse without cheating.Have you thought about how certain owners would spend what it takes to fix and help their horse ailments without using anything Illegal.Im also surprised you didnt name what "They" are using.Horses will run like champions when there ailments are taken care of.I also know a certain owner who will spend whatever it takes within the rules of racing to see their horse win.Doesnt matter what the vet bill is.The purse will take care of it.
I've pointed a few of these things out before . I know Midwest had a facility for training and layups. At least they did. These things and the investment spent are huge . Many don't want to listen though.

[therussmeister]

Lambo..you may be opening a can of worms here accusing high percentage trainers of cheating.Has nobody thought about how Midwest may spend what they need to help a horse without cheating.Have you thought about how certain owners would spend what it takes to fix and help their horse ailments without using anything Illegal.Im also surprised you didnt name what "They" are using.Horses will run like champions when there ailments are taken care of.I also know a certain owner who will spend whatever it takes within the rules of racing to see their horse win.Doesnt matter what the vet bill is.The purse will take care of it.
It seems to me that in the very first two sentences of Lambo's quoted post he says he suspects they are not cheating.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Lambo..you may be opening a can of worms here accusing high percentage trainers of cheating.Has nobody thought about how Midwest may spend what they need to help a horse without cheating.Have you thought about how certain owners would spend what it takes to fix and help their horse ailments without using anything Illegal.Im also surprised you didnt name what "They" are using.Horses will run like champions when there ailments are taken care of.I also know a certain owner who will spend whatever it takes within the rules of racing to see their horse win.Doesnt matter what the vet bill is.The purse will take care of it.

Is this sarcasm? You can't win at a more than 25% to 30% clip LEGALLY (on a sustained basis with a large sample size) even if a vet lives at the barn. I've explicitly told trainers in the past ("I WANT a high vet bill"--I like to win), and the horses would never improve like the way they do for the supertrainers. Never.

I'm not accusing any particular trainer or owner of anything...maybe a sustained period of luck.

[lamboguy]

Lambo..you may be opening a can of worms here accusing high percentage trainers of cheating.Has nobody thought about how Midwest may spend what they need to help a horse without cheating.Have you thought about how certain owners would spend what it takes to fix and help their horse ailments without using anything Illegal.Im also surprised you didnt name what "They" are using.Horses will run like champions when there ailments are taken care of.I also know a certain owner who will spend whatever it takes within the rules of racing to see their horse win.Doesnt matter what the vet bill is.The purse will take care of it.
first of all i never accused anyone of using anything illegal. i haven't even accused midwest of using anything legal.

the stuff that i have come across is called TB-500. it is being used all over the world according to the salesmen for this company. they will not give you the names of the individual's that they sell it to. as far as i can read, this stuff does not help ailments. it deals with a genetic process that is synthetic peptide according to the website.

i have not opened any can worms either, there are jurisdictions that are studying this at this time.
http://www.tb500.com/

[Saratoga_Mike]

first of all i never accused anyone of using anything illegal. i haven't even accused midwest of using anything legal.

the stuff that i have come across is called TB-500. it is being used all over the world according to the salesmen for this company. they will not give you the names of the individual's that they sell it to. as far as i can read, this stuff does not help ailments. it deals with a genetic process that is synthetic peptide according to the website.

i have not opened any can worms either, there are jurisdictions that are studying this at this time.
http://www.tb500.com/

Lambo, are you saying racing regulators are okay with this substance being admininstered OR they just don't have a test for it?

[lamboguy]

Lambo, are you saying racing regulators are okay with this substance being admininstered OR they just don't have a test for it?
there is no test for TB-500 and there never will be. the stuff does not SLAB! they can only test for stuff that is in the horses saliva. whatever this stuff is will never test for anything that is known to be illegal. i have no idea where, what or how someone might obtain the main ingredient or where it comes from.

i am repeating myself, i never in a million years thought that this was possible. another thing that you can take to the bank is that i would never come on the internet and post something like this if i didn't know that it is going on.

[Dahoss9698]

another thing that you can take to the bank is that i would never come on the internet and post something like this if i didn't know that it is going on.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Striker]

Lambo..you may be opening a can of worms here accusing high percentage trainers of cheating.Has nobody thought about how Midwest may spend what they need to help a horse without cheating.Have you thought about how certain owners would spend what it takes to fix and help their horse ailments without using anything Illegal.Im also surprised you didnt name what "They" are using.Horses will run like champions when there ailments are taken care of.I also know a certain owner who will spend whatever it takes within the rules of racing to see their horse win.Doesnt matter what the vet bill is.The purse will take care of it.
Then how do all these horses for the same owner(Midwest)move up or perform better when Ness gets them from say Roger Brueggemann? Is Midwest spending more only for the horses with Ness? I've said this before, Ness has done amazing things when he gets horses transferred to him, that Roger B couldn't do much with. On the flip side, when Roger B gets horses from Ness with Midwest he very rarely can improve, or even get the horse into the winners circle.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Is this sarcasm? You can't win at a more than 25% to 30% clip LEGALLY (on a sustained basis with a large sample size) even if a vet lives at the barn. I've explicitly told trainers in the past ("I WANT a high vet bill"--I like to win), and the horses would never improve like the way they do for the supertrainers. Never.

I'm not accusing any particular trainer or owner of anything...maybe a sustained period of luck.


No not sarcasm at all!..Maybe things werent done to your horses that needed done..The biggest thing I see is a vet checking a horse for a trainer instead of the trainer telling the vet.When you say you want a large vet bill..Your reallly sticking your neck out if your trainers dont have a clue.I have a very hard time believing that a single shot can turn a cessna into a space shuttle....Note to Lambo..Maybe I missread what you said about high percentage trainers..

[jdhanover]

Hard for me to imagine that Midwest/Ness etc have a magic chemical...and have been able to hide it. Too many people would have to know, and one would have some gripe and rat him out.

I am admittedly a little skeptical, but I do know that MW spends a lot more on medication than some trainers.

[lamboguy]

No not sarcasm at all!..Maybe things werent done to your horses that needed done..The biggest thing I see is a vet checking a horse for a trainer instead of the trainer telling the vet.When you say you want a large vet bill..Your reallly sticking your neck out if your trainers dont have a clue.I have a very hard time believing that a single shot can turn a cessna into a space shuttle....Note to Lambo..Maybe I missread what you said about high percentage trainers..you can't make a slow horse fast with this stuff, but you can make a fast horse braver and faster.

[tbwinner]

you can't make a slow horse fast with this stuff, but you can make a fast horse braver and faster.


IMO, and assuming you're still talking about the website posted earlier, I'm a bit leery of what I'm reading. First of all there's all bunch of red flags on that site, no contact info with a name, no officer/president bios, etc... And the fact they're redirecting to Paypal makes me question if its some kind of hoax.

I do not believe there is a "magic potion" that makes a slow horse fast, and a fast horse 2x faster. That's just me...horses are horses, there's only so much you can do until you get into the current illegal drug "flavor of the day" with the demorphin (by the way, my trainer heard about that and said they were all nuts for using it).

Midwest Thoroughbreds' trainers are usually very hard on the horses, or should I say aggressive. They spend the necessary money on all the veterinary work needed which as all horse owners and trainers know, you can keep injecting joints but you're only prolonging and increasing the problems. If you notice a lot of times on MWT horses their spontaneous huge form increase does not last over a huge period of time. They have their farm to lay horses off, gradually train them back into a race, and go balls-out aggressive on their vet work.

All that being said, I am often skeptical of quite a few of their horses and, as noted earlier in this thread and others, how MUCH they improve. I am skeptical but do I think they're cheating? No. They clearly have many tools, great help, and aggressive vet spending to get the job done. But like 99% of the other horseplayers here some of their results are mind-boggling.

[tbwinner]

you can't make a slow horse fast with this stuff, but you can make a fast horse braver and faster.

ok I just misread you in my reply above. We both agree there is no 'magic formula' to make slow horses fast.

[Not4Love]

I definitely agree with what you are talking about. I believe there are different variations of this drug. I see similar products advertised in harness publications . It can be found at Epoequine.com.

[nijinski]

IMO, and assuming you're still talking about the website posted earlier, I'm a bit leery of what I'm reading. First of all there's all bunch of red flags on that site, no contact info with a name, no officer/president bios, etc... And the fact they're redirecting to Paypal makes me question if its some kind of hoax.

I do not believe there is a "magic potion" that makes a slow horse fast, and a fast horse 2x faster. That's just me...horses are horses, there's only so much you can do until you get into the current illegal drug "flavor of the day" with the demorphin (by the way, my trainer heard about that and said they were all nuts for using it).

Midwest Thoroughbreds' trainers are usually very hard on the horses, or should I say aggressive. They spend the necessary money on all the veterinary work needed which as all horse owners and trainers know, you can keep injecting joints but you're only prolonging and increasing the problems. If you notice a lot of times on MWT horses their spontaneous huge form increase does not last over a huge period of time. They have their farm to lay horses off, gradually train them back into a race, and go balls-out aggressive on their vet work.

All that being said, I am often skeptical of quite a few of their horses and, as noted earlier in this thread and others, how MUCH they improve. I am skeptical but do I think they're cheating? No. They clearly have many tools, great help, and aggressive vet spending to get the job done. But like 99% of the other horseplayers here some of their results are mind-boggling.
Hector Magana trains at the facility in Florida. He claims everyone of their horses that end up there , use the aquaciser for about six weeks and he seems very positive about the benefits. Magana worked for years with Frankel .
For a largely claiming operation. The owner puts a alot more into into it than the average claiming barn. IMO.

[Some_One]

IMO, and assuming you're still talking about the website posted earlier, I'm a bit leery of what I'm reading. First of all there's all bunch of red flags on that site, no contact info with a name, no officer/president bios, etc... And the fact they're redirecting to Paypal makes me question if its some kind of hoax.

I do not believe there is a "magic potion" that makes a slow horse fast, and a fast horse 2x faster. That's just me...horses are horses, there's only so much you can do until you get into the current illegal drug "flavor of the day" with the demorphin (by the way, my trainer heard about that and said they were all nuts for using it).

Midwest Thoroughbreds' trainers are usually very hard on the horses, or should I say aggressive. They spend the necessary money on all the veterinary work needed which as all horse owners and trainers know, you can keep injecting joints but you're only prolonging and increasing the problems. If you notice a lot of times on MWT horses their spontaneous huge form increase does not last over a huge period of time. They have their farm to lay horses off, gradually train them back into a race, and go balls-out aggressive on their vet work.

All that being said, I am often skeptical of quite a few of their horses and, as noted earlier in this thread and others, how MUCH they improve. I am skeptical but do I think they're cheating? No. They clearly have many tools, great help, and aggressive vet spending to get the job done. But like 99% of the other horseplayers here some of their results are mind-boggling.

If their training methods get 5+ lengths out of a horse that other trainers can't get, why aren't they training graded horses and earning 6% (10% of 60%) of a 400K purse versus a 15K claiming purse?

[lamboguy]

Hector Magana trains at the facility in Florida. He claims everyone of their horses that end up there , use the aquaciser for about six weeks and he seems very positive about the benefits. Magana worked for years with Frankel .
For a largely claiming operation. The owner puts a alot more into into it than the average claiming barn. IMO.

that's as funny as it gets

[nijinski]

that's as funny as it gets

Was just a little tidbit about Magana and his methods. He did once have
a pretty nice record on the track too . if you remember trained for Midwest before they sent him to the Fla facility.

You also thought it impossible for a horse to win the BCC with bar shoes . Well it happened .

[Shankapotamus]

How naive can some people be; or just plain blind!

Trainers with a hit rate of 40%+ because they treat a horse's ailments and the owners don't mind spending the money necessary to help the horse???.

Oh, nobody ever thought of this unique strategy before. All the hall of fame trainers from the past 100 years that were icons of the game and had win rates in the 20% range never thought about treating a horse's ailments.

The current situation in horse racing very closely mimics the recent steroid era of baseball. People loved to see balls flying out of the yard, and only a select few raised the point that there were more 50 home run seasons in a hand full of years than in the 100 years previous. Remember the Mitchell Report and Canseco's book?

Racing luck, track bias, jockey error, bad trips and form cycles makes it impossible to win at 40%+ on a level playing field. These guys are doing something different. Is it illegal? I don't have the knowledge base to make that statement, but something is not right. Just like baseball turned a blind eye to steroids because people were flocking to the ballpark, racing authorities are in no hurry to expose something that could diminish players trust in a game that relies on wagering to remain solvent.

My best friend and I owned a few claimers in western New York a few years ago. Our trainer was an established, hard working guy with a track record of success (traditionally a 16-18% win rate). When the "super trainers" starting winning these crazy amount of races, lots of these good, honest trainers saw their win rates drop. After 20 years in the business, all of a sudden wins were hard to come by. We got fed up real quick with super trainer horses losing speed duels, falling back on the turn, finding another gear and pulling away in the stretch. We got out of the business 4 years ago and it's a shame because we love this game.

At my job I don't allow people to complain without having a suggestion how to improve the situation; and now I'm doing that exact thing on this board. I apologize for this "rant", but I love this game so much and hate to see what's happening to it.

[lamboguy]

the above poster sums it up better than i can.

[Saratoga_Mike]

How naive can some people be; or just plain blind!

Trainers with a hit rate of 40%+ because they treat a horse's ailments and the owners don't mind spending the money necessary to help the horse???.

Oh, nobody ever thought of this unique strategy before. All the hall of fame trainers from the past 100 years that were icons of the game and had win rates in the 20% range never thought about treating a horse's ailments.

.

Exactly right - the suggestion that lots of vet work (or vet independence to check over the horse on his/her own and do whatever legal work they like) results in a 35% win rate (with a large sample size--sure any trainer can have streaks) or 40% first off the claim is absurd.

[Valuist]

Then how do all these horses for the same owner(Midwest)move up or perform better when Ness gets them from say Roger Brueggemann? Is Midwest spending more only for the horses with Ness? I've said this before, Ness has done amazing things when he gets horses transferred to him, that Roger B couldn't do much with. On the flip side, when Roger B gets horses from Ness with Midwest he very rarely can improve, or even get the horse into the winners circle.

Brueggemann is pretty good in his own right but it seems his horses often prefer dirt over Poly, so his AP results will never be what they are at Hawthorne.

[tbwinner]

Brueggemann is pretty good in his own right but it seems his horses often prefer dirt over Poly, so his AP results will never be what they are at Hawthorne.

Not to mention AP is a bit tougher than Hawth but I also think Brueggemann never got a knack for altering his training styles to polytrack, as it certainly does take a few changes to get horses fit over it and ready for race. He hired a new assistant this year and that seems to be helping a bit as his number is 18% this year versus 14% last....but I thought it'd be more around 20 or 25 with the Midwest stock behind him..

[lamboguy]

Brueggemann is pretty good in his own right but it seems his horses often prefer dirt over Poly, so his AP results will never be what they are at Hawthorne.
how about the other contestants in Arilington Park are tougher than the ones in Hawthorne? i have seen the guy win on synthetic on Presque Isles plenty of times.

[CryingForTheHorses]

there is no test for TB-500 and there never will be. the stuff does not SLAB! they can only test for stuff that is in the horses saliva. whatever this stuff is will never test for anything that is known to be illegal. i have no idea where, what or how someone might obtain the main ingredient or where it comes from.

i am repeating myself, i never in a million years thought that this was possible. another thing that you can take to the bank is that i would never come on the internet and post something like this if i didn't know that it is going on.


Lambo..this TB-500 is a series of shots over the course of several months.You horse needs to be on this for a period of time before any result if any are shown.I did ask a vet today about this stuff and he said it is all natural stuff that the horse produces himself.No this isnt jet fuel just another expensive thing like adaqan to get your money.I remember the raves about Adaqan.The stuff helps horses heal quicker is good for the joints and keeps muscle buildup.The price of this stuff is dear but as time goes on it will come down as this new fab deminishes with trainers trying it and it not working.Bottom line is you have to have the horse and in the proper race and distance to win the race IMO.

[lamboguy]

Lambo..this TB-500 is a series of shots over the course of several months.You horse needs to be on this for a period of time before any result if any are shown.I did ask a vet today about this stuff and he said it is all natural stuff that the horse produces himself.No this isnt jet fuel just another expensive thing like adaqan to get your money.I remember the raves about Adaqan.The stuff helps horses heal quicker is good for the joints and keeps muscle buildup.The price of this stuff is dear but as time goes on it will come down as this new fab deminishes with trainers trying it and it not working.Bottom line is you have to have the horse and in the proper race and distance to win the race IMO.i have known about this stuff for a little over a 6 weeks now. i know of 6 horses that have been claimed in different places. they all ran between 3 weeks to a month apart. 4 winners and 2 outs of that small number of horses. the ones that won improved their beyer numbers by over 10 points since they have gotten the stuff. i am waiting for one of these horses to run back a second time on this stuff to see if they improve further.

in my opinion, this stuff is no good for the horse. it might look good because the horses are winning on it, but i don't know what happens to their bones and if they are prime candidates for cancer.

this stuff is nothing close to adaquan, which i think is a complete waste of money and just another gaff. this stuff is rocket juice as far as i can see so far.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Lambo..this TB-500 is a series of shots over the course of several months.You horse needs to be on this for a period of time before any result if any are shown.I did ask a vet today about this stuff and he said it is all natural stuff that the horse produces himself.No this isnt jet fuel just another expensive thing like adaqan to get your money.I remember the raves about Adaqan.The stuff helps horses heal quicker is good for the joints and keeps muscle buildup.The price of this stuff is dear but as time goes on it will come down as this new fab deminishes with trainers trying it and it not working.Bottom line is you have to have the horse and in the proper race and distance to win the race IMO.

I don't think anyone would deny this as long as you (the honest trainer) aren't up against guys with an unfair advantage. Any trainer with a few hundred starts or more, winning at a 40% clip first off the claim, is doing more than spending dearly on legal vet work, in my opinion. From all your past posts, you seem like a very honest and decent horseman/trainer. I'm shocked by your position on supertrainers (i.e., you seem to imply many are just spending lots of money on legal vet work).

[lamboguy]

i have seen bills from trainers that throw everything under the sun at horses, ulcerguard will run you $450 per month, Clen-beuterol $275 per month, race prep $450 per start, accupuncture $350 per month, chiropractor $200 per month, shockwave therapy $200 a week, bute $4 a day, hypobarrick chambers $200 per session. there is plenty more that i don't know about. this does not include a performance enhancer like TB-500 or other things like it. to top it off, if your horse runs fifth in the race you have to give the trainer 10% of the purse that you took in and an additional 4% for boys at the barn.

[Charli125]

i have known about this stuff for a little over a 6 weeks now. i know of 6 horses that have been claimed in different places. they all ran between 3 weeks to a month apart. 4 winners and 2 outs of that small number of horses. the ones that won improved their beyer numbers by over 10 points since they have gotten the stuff. i am waiting for one of these horses to run back a second time on this stuff to see if they improve further.

in my opinion, this stuff is no good for the horse. it might look good because the horses are winning on it, but i don't know what happens to their bones and if they are prime candidates for cancer.

this stuff is nothing close to adaquan, which i think is a complete waste of money and just another gaff. this stuff is rocket juice as far as i can see so far.

Have you considered bringing this stuff to the attention of the authorities? I read somewhere else where someone said their trainer mentioned demorphin and that he wasn't going to use it, but it seems to me that if that person(or you) were to bring that kind of stuff to the attention of the authorities we would have a much better chance of stopping it.

[lamboguy]

Have you considered bringing this stuff to the attention of the authorities? I read somewhere else where someone said their trainer mentioned demorphin and that he wasn't going to use it, but it seems to me that if that person(or you) were to bring that kind of stuff to the attention of the authorities we would have a much better chance of stopping it.they read this board as much as anyone.

[CryingForTheHorses]

i have seen bills from trainers that throw everything under the sun at horses, ulcerguard will run you $450 per month, Clen-beuterol $275 per month, race prep $450 per start, accupuncture $350 per month, chiropractor $200 per month, shockwave therapy $200 a week, bute $4 a day, hypobarrick chambers $200 per session. there is plenty more that i don't know about. this does not include a performance enhancer like TB-500 or other things like it. to top it off, if your horse runs fifth in the race you have to give the trainer 10% of the purse that you took in and an additional 4% for boys at the barn.


I understand what you are saying Lambo but they are spending their money for the wrong things. Think about it..Horses do the running..If you have a nice horse,He would be a nice horse no matter what. Racing has gone higt tech but the industry doesnt have the same people who "know" horses. Geeze I get cripples to race and win. The horseman must know what ails his horse in order to tell and consult with his vet.Thats what wins races..All this other crap IMO is a big waste of money for owners and a windfall for the drug companys and vets.If I can get cripples to the races with out all this stuff,Just imagine what I could do with a nice horse.

[5k-claim]

I understand what you are saying Lambo but they are spending their money for the wrong things. Think about it..Horses do the running..If you have a nice horse,He would be a nice horse no matter what. Racing has gone higt tech but the industry doesnt have the same people who "know" horses. Geeze I get cripples to race and win. The horseman must know what ails his horse in order to tell and consult with his vet.Thats what wins races..All this other crap IMO is a big waste of money for owners and a windfall for the drug companys and vets.If I can get cripples to the races with out all this stuff,Just imagine what I could do with a nice horse.Just for clarification, what are you describing here with the term "cripples"?

The phrase "get cripples to the races" is not exactly soundbite material, regardless of its actual meaning. Or unfortunately in today's climate, perhaps it is.

Probably just needs the word "former" thrown in there with it?

.

[tbwinner]

i have seen bills from trainers that throw everything under the sun at horses, ulcerguard will run you $450 per month, Clen-beuterol $275 per month, race prep $450 per start, accupuncture $350 per month, chiropractor $200 per month, shockwave therapy $200 a week, bute $4 a day, hypobarrick chambers $200 per session. there is plenty more that i don't know about. this does not include a performance enhancer like TB-500 or other things like it. to top it off, if your horse runs fifth in the race you have to give the trainer 10% of the purse that you took in and an additional 4% for boys at the barn.

Yes remember also that Midwest LIKELY has their trainers on a salary plus bonus rather than the traditional day rate and commission. Also I recall that they have contracts for their own feed so I imagine they have specific arrangements with vets, blacksmiths, etc. as well..... Their operation is very efficiently managed so their costs as you state may not even be half that.

[proximity]

From all your past posts, you seem like a very honest and decent horseman/trainer. I'm shocked by your position on supertrainers (i.e., you seem to imply many are just spending lots of money on legal vet work).

don't be shocked, because as crazy as it may seem, despite the absurd and unprecedented audacity of super-trainer win percentages, history tells us that 90+ % of normal hard working trainers bow to the feet of the super(s) at their track...... sometimes even electing them to be their leaders. :faint:

[Saratoga_Mike]

don't be shocked, because as crazy as it may seem, despite the absurd and unprecedented audacity of super-trainer win percentages, history tells us that 90+ % of normal hard working trainers bow to the feet of the super(s) at their track...... sometimes even electing them to be their leaders. :faint:

Point to you!

[CryingForTheHorses]

Just for clarification, what are you describing here with the term "cripples"?

The phrase "get cripples to the races" is not exactly soundbite material, regardless of its actual meaning. Or unfortunately in today's climate, perhaps it is.

Probably just needs the word "former" thrown in there with it?

.


Im surprised at what you are saying being a horseman..You know as well as I do that claiming horses and horses discarded because they have problems that nobody wants to deal with.I am very proud of how I can get horse back to the races with over 1200 starts and only 2 breakdowns in 30 yrs of training horses..Yes there have been some that needed homes but you just have to be smart enough to know when the horse has had enough.Maybe the word cripple scares some people,Let say horses with problems and every horse has them!!

[Valuist]

how about the other contestants in Arilington Park are tougher than the ones in Hawthorne? i have seen the guy win on synthetic on Presque Isles plenty of times.

We already know the competition is tougher at Arlington than Hawthorne. I'm sure Bruggemann is well aware of that. Are you telling me a guy who is capable of winning 25-30% doesn't know where to place his horses? That's basically what you are saying.

I think Tbwinner's post makes sense. A lot of his horses are speedballs and the surface at Hawthorne is much more speed favoring than the Poly at Arlington.

[5k-claim]

Im surprised at what you are saying being a horseman..You know as well as I do that claiming horses and horses discarded because they have problems that nobody wants to deal with.I am very proud of how I can get horse back to the races with over 1200 starts and only 2 breakdowns in 30 yrs of training horses..Yes there have been some that needed homes but you just have to be smart enough to know when the horse has had enough.Maybe the word cripple scares some people,Let say horses with problems and every horse has them!!Of course I know that you're a good guy, and this explanation is great.

You are correct in that I am a little gun-shy of trainers using phrases like "getting cripples to the races" and whatnot that could be pulled out. Especially in today's world where it seems like a free-for-all to take shots at the sport's participants.

.

[Citation1947]

Anyone know what the drug was that caused this Ness DQ?
At the bottom of page, footnotes says, "Sorry No Refunds was disqualified from first to unplaced for medication violation"

http://equibase.com/static/chart/pdf/DEL071112USA6.pdf

[CryingForTheHorses]

Anyone know what the drug was that caused this Ness DQ?
At the bottom of page, footnotes says, "Sorry No Refunds was disqualified from first to unplaced for medication violation"

http://equibase.com/static/chart/pdf/DEL071112USA6.pdf


The only thing I can think of is Lasix..Maybe the horse's lasix card wasnt in the office,Maybe he got it late!..To do this right after a race tells me this unless this was put in the chart after he had been tested by the state.

[PaceAdvantage]

The only thing I can think of is Lasix..Maybe the horse's lasix card wasnt in the office,Maybe he got it late!..To do this right after a race tells me this unless this was put in the chart after he had been tested by the state.The chart was updated after the ruling.

[nijinski]

He may be getting a few more horses as Midwest recently fired Brad Cox .

[sammy the sage]

Well he actually claimed one yesterday at "Toga"......

[mistergee]

Well he actually claimed one yesterday at "Toga"......
Is he eligible for the Travers

[1st time lasix]

i recall after he won with yet another stepping up in class with inferior past performances......the big yuk last year in Tampa last year among my experienced handicapping group was that Ness would claim a 10000 2l horse and place him in the Derby. The comment was that he would be the likely favorite and we would be forced to use 'em. In my humble opinion.....his obvious cheating is a disgrace and glaring embarrassment to racing.:mad:

[PICSIX]

Ness was 3 for 5 yesterday after going 0 for the previous 2 days. :eek: :eek: :eek:

[sammy the sage]

Ness...taking ON the big boys IN earnest now...two today at "Toga"...I'll go out on a short limb...and say 1 wins...

[cj]

I found it hilarious that in the 5th at Delaware today, fellow miracle worker Cartagena scratched his entrant (and the only competition) rather than face the latest Ness machine.

[sammy the sage]

Well his runner's at "Toga"...tanked

[Stillriledup]

Ness being smart so far. Show up at Saratoga, lose a bunch of races and people will start to believe that you're human after all (cue up human league circa 1980).

He has one horse in today, in the 9th race that was claimed from a 5 pct trainer....you would think, that this horse should be a very short price yet they have this one at 8-1 ML. Even though Ness could make this one go into another galaxy if he wants to, its not likely he will. Ness wants to show the racing world that not every horse he claims runs off and hides.

Is Ness 'laying low' at the Spa on purpose? 0 for 7 for Ness is like 0 for 50 for anyone else.

Seems like a smart move. Keep losing races and eventually, people will get off your back.

[rastajenk]

He won the sixth yesterday, goofball.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Ness being smart so far. Show up at Saratoga, lose a bunch of races and people will start to believe that you're human after all (cue up human league circa 1980).

He has one horse in today, in the 9th race that was claimed from a 5 pct trainer....you would think, that this horse should be a very short price yet they have this one at 8-1 ML. Even though Ness could make this one go into another galaxy if he wants to, its not likely he will. Ness wants to show the racing world that not every horse he claims runs off and hides.

Is Ness 'laying low' at the Spa on purpose? 0 for 7 for Ness is like 0 for 50 for anyone else.

Seems like a smart move. Keep losing races and eventually, people will get off your back.

Ness is losing intentionally at Saratoga! Glad to have you back SRU.

[Stillriledup]

Ness is losing intentionally at Saratoga! Glad to have you back SRU.

Michael, let me clarify. He's not intentionally losing, that would entail him doing something specific to make the horse go slower. I think its that he's not doing everything he can to win. He's not doing his magic for lack of a better word. He's doing nothing wrong, he's just sending the horse out there minus the magic.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Michael, let me clarify. He's not intentionally losing, that would entail him doing something specific to make the horse go slower. I think its that he's not doing everything he can to win. He's not doing his magic for lack of a better word. He's doing nothing wrong, he's just sending the horse out there minus the magic.

I knew exactly what you meant. He goes maybe 2 for 20 at the Saratoga meet. He's a 10% trainer. He's no longer a "super-trainer," he can argue.

I mean who could argue with that iron-clad logic? Oh wait, people that look at his 35% win rate on his other 800 or so starters on the yr.

[Stillriledup]

I knew exactly what you meant. He goes maybe 2 for 20 at the Saratoga meet. He's a 10% trainer. He's no longer a "super-trainer," he can argue.

I mean who could argue with that iron-clad logic? Oh wait, people that look at his 35% win rate on his other 800 or so starters on the yr.

But then he can say "if i was such a supertrainer, how come i was 2 for 20 at the spa?"

Can't argue with that either.

I think that at this point, Ness probably has visions of being a top trainer in the sport, but, if that's what he eventually wants to do, and there's no reason to think he can't accomplish this, he should 'ease' into the spa and show that hes just one of many trainers who have gone 2 for 20. The last thing he wants is to be waiting on the banned list like tricky or have the racing commission sniffing around his barn. If you run up the track and don't embarrass anyone, there's a good chance nobody will even think twice about you.

Whether he's 'tanking' at the Spa on purpose or not, its working out well for him that he's not 'tearing it up'.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Makes total sense now. Thanks.

[Dahoss9698]

Makes total sense now. Thanks.

What were you thinking questioning such flawless logic?

Everyone knows that for a guy who has visions of being a top trainer the best way to do it is underperform at the marquee meet of the year. What a great way to impress potential clients.

[bettheoverlay]

You have to wonder how Ness's employer, Midwest Thoroughbreds, fits into this cagey scenario of wanting to lose races at Saratoga.

[Stillriledup]

You have to wonder how Ness's employer, Midwest Thoroughbreds, fits into this cagey scenario of wanting to lose races at Saratoga.



I bet they're all broken up about it. I can't imagine they're too happy that their supertrainer Ness claimed a horse from a 5% trainer and didnt move that horse up 20 beyer points in one race. In fact, the horse went from this 5% guy to Ness and fell off the map.

When do Ness horses 'fall off the map' first time off the claim, especially when they're claimed from 5% trainers?

[Track Phantom]

But then he can say "if i was such a supertrainer, how come i was 2 for 20 at the spa?"

Can't argue with that either.

Ness and Midwest days of worrying about what others think of their "methods" have long past. The only reason he isn't winning at Saratoga is he hasn't found figured out the lay of the land yet on the backside. Once he does...40%

[mannyberrios]

You have to wonder how Ness's employer, Midwest Thoroughbreds, fits into this cagey scenario of wanting to lose races at Saratoga.
There is a method to their maddens

[sammy the sage]

I gotta give 'em SOME props...they use the BEST jocks...perhaps THAT has something to do w/their success :rolleyes:

[Beachbabe]

Hurricane Girl....claimed by Ness on June 6th for 20k in a race at Delaware. Up to that point the horse, trained by Ferris Allen, had ran 4 races with a win & two thirds. Her four Bris Speed figs were 83, 73, 73 and 72. After the claim, under the care of Jamie Ness, she has run 2 races and won them both. Her Bris figs were 96 in a race she won by over 13 lengths; and 98 in a race she won by 8 lengths.
Someone wrote that Ness is good at spotting his horses; that's why he wins so much.
Yeh, right !!!!

[Beachbabe]

Hurricane Girl....claimed by Ness on June 6th for 20k in a race at Delaware. Up to that point the horse, trained by Ferris Allen, had ran 4 races with a win & two thirds. Her four Bris Speed figs were 83, 73, 73 and 72. After the claim, under the care of Jamie Ness, she has run 2 races and won them both. Her Bris figs were 96 in a race she won by over 13 lengths; and 98 in a race she won by 8 lengths.
Someone wrote that Ness is good at spotting his horses; that's why he wins so much.
Yeh, right !!!!


So she wins again today by open lengths. Her fig probably wont be as large since she set a slow pace & won going away with no encouragement from the rider.

[Saratoga_Mike]

So she wins again today by open lengths. Her fig probably wont be as large since she set a slow pace & won going away with no encouragement from the rider.

It's how he places them and clean-living.

[Stillriledup]

Interesting betting scenario in Race 1 at GP, the 5 horse, Won Kool Kid was 4-5 odds as the gate was loading and the 2 horse, Managed Account was 2-1. Im not sure when the odds shifted, but the Ness horse went from 4-5 to 3-2 and the 2 horse went down to even money.

The 2 horse set the pace, looked all over a winner as the Ness horse was under a drive in 2nd and not gaining heading to the top of the lane.

Then, in Nessian (Ruthian?) fashion, Won Kool Kid found a few extra gears to get up by a nose surging at the wire.

Ness paid 5 dollars, up from 4-5 as the gate was loading.

[lamboguy]

i was watching the pools in that race as well. the 5 horse had $1500 finished the race with $1500 less than he left the gate with. someone must have changed their mind real late about the horse.

this does happen quite frequently, so i don't bother posting about it any longer

[Stillriledup]

i was watching the pools in that race as well. the 5 horse had $1500 finished the race with $1500 less than he left the gate with. someone must have changed their mind real late about the horse.

this does happen quite frequently, so i don't bother posting about it any longer

interesting.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, since i posted this, Ness has 2 more winners today.one at Tampa and one at Laurel. He's sweeping the country!

[Striker]

Mike Welsch on twitter "Jamie Ness not only seems to win every race he's in, he also seems to win every shake at the claim box." After Ness just won a 5 way shake for a horse at GP yesterday. Maybe Ness makes his own luck.

[brivolta]

It's amazing how often they claim, and just as amazing how often their horses get claimed. If you "like" them on facebook you will get daily updates. It seems like every day they claim 2 and lose 2. It's great operation that they run...both in Illinois and on the East Coast.

[Stillriledup]

Mike Welsch on twitter "Jamie Ness not only seems to win every race he's in, he also seems to win every shake at the claim box." After Ness just won a 5 way shake for a horse at GP yesterday. Maybe Ness makes his own luck.

He claimed a filly called "its closing time" out of a race on Jan 17th at Laurel, the horse was 9-1 and won for fun and somehow, Ness entered a claim. The horse won today at approx even money for the same claiming price. The purse was 25k, they almost paid for the horse with today's winning purse.

They're making it look easy.

[lamboguy]

interesting.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, since i posted this, Ness has 2 more winners today.one at Tampa and one at Laurel. He's sweeping the country!he is TOUGH for sure. i can't worry about it, i am trying to win with Perkins this race in Maryland. when i saw the horse 4 months ago he was breaking slow, but the horse had some count to him. i just hope he has him going good today.

[Stillriledup]

he is TOUGH for sure. i can't worry about it, i am trying to win with Perkins this race in Maryland. when i saw the horse 4 months ago he was breaking slow, but the horse had some count to him. i just hope he has him going good today.

Congrats! New Farm is one of the best outfits ever with firsters, they're always ready to run holes in winds.

[lamboguy]

i knew he wasn't going to run that horse until he had him right, he was just plain to good when i saw him in Monmouth. that's why i keep good notes when i watch horses work.

[Stillriledup]

So, here's a question (or 2) about Ness for those of you following the Large A.

He's currently a respectable 5 for 21 at the Big A (or something like that) with a bunch of 2nds and 3rds, but some of his more recent Big A runners seem to be running flat...which is obviously, unlike him. Today he had a runner in the first race who got an easy lead and the horse came crawling home 3rd with no excuse, he had a horse in the 3rd race who stalked the pace and was basically eased in the stretch and he had a horse the other day named Most Happy Fella (who was in the Went the Day Well race) and acted up badly at the gate and just got outrun and was off the board.

Aqueduct seems to have small fields and large purses and people have been complaining about the competition being weak...Ness has hundreds of horses, he could be winning 40 percent at this place with no problem if he wanted to, but it seems like he's not running his Grade A stock at Aqueduct.

Is there a reason he's not shipping in any live horses and he's running slugs and his main jock is someone named Morales (who doesnt seem all that great)?

I don't want to say Ness is an automatic throwout at Aqueduct, but the stock he's running there is pretty bad for his incredibly high standards.

[davew]

It might be due to the drug rules there - did they add restrictions on corticosteroids and clenbuterol? Is it harder to truck in horses to race for the day?

[Stillriledup]

It might be due to the drug rules there - did they add restrictions on corticosteroids and clenbuterol? Is it harder to truck in horses to race for the day?

I think the horses he's running there are just slowpokes, begging the question where are his good ones? Why bother even running at the Big A at all if you're just going to send the B and C stringers out there.

Well, it is what it is, normally i dont bet any race with Ness in there, but it seems as if he's not 'jamie ness' these days (At Big A) , he's just another guy who is blending in, he's not really a factor like he is at Tampa or some of these other places.

[fiveouttasix]

With his last 100 starters since early Feb. (all Tracks) he has 23 winners (23%) Very Un- Ness like.

[Stillriledup]

With his last 100 starters since early Feb. (all Tracks) he has 23 winners (23%) Very Un- Ness like.

Its a low percentage for him for sure, but going even deeper than the actual percentage, if you watch (visually) his recent runners at Aqueduct, they're not 'rebreaking' at the 16th pole and they're not being caught by the outriders because they're hard to pull up, they're just basically stopping in the stretch, no outrider needed.

[Robert Fischer]

With his last 100 starters since early Feb. (all Tracks) he has 23 winners (23%) Very Un- Ness like.

His 2/16 at gulfstream ~last100 has to hurt his % a little bit.

he's about 11 for 36 (31%) at Tampa during his last 100 race segment.

Not easy to spread your stock thin, do a string at Gulfstream and Aqueduct and still maintain a high%.

Maybe things can be explained here logically?

There isn't always a conspiracy.

He's 23 of his last 100 in a very ambitious spread out string of horses as of your post.

he's won 3 of his past 8 in the last 3 days, and had an $11.60 winner today at Gulfstream.

[Robert Fischer]

So, here's a question (or 2) about Ness for those of you following the Large A
...

Is there a reason he's not shipping in any live horses and he's running slugs and his main jock is someone named Morales (who doesnt seem all that great)?



How the :bang: am I supposed to know?

Seems like a lot of barns took good horses to Florida for the winter. Not too many shipping good stock North for the winter.

And of the barns that are left, there isn't exactly a bunch of free money with well established good% operations already targeting the Big A for the winter like Jacobson and Rodriguez.


There has to be a conspiracy to explain all these going ons....

[Stillriledup]

How the :bang: am I supposed to know?

Seems like a lot of barns took good horses to Florida for the winter. Not too many shipping good stock North for the winter.

And of the barns that are left, there isn't exactly a bunch of free money with well established good% operations already targeting the Big A for the winter like Jacobson and Rodriguez.


There has to be a conspiracy to explain all these going ons....

Makes you wonder, right? ;)

[therussmeister]

With his last 100 starters since early Feb. (all Tracks) he has 23 winners (23%) Very Un- Ness like.
Whatever his long term win percentage is (I'm too lazy to look it up), cold streaks of 23/100 should be expected, just like us bettors have hot and cold streaks for no particular reason.

[Stillriledup]

Whatever his long term win percentage is (I'm too lazy to look it up), cold streaks of 23/100 should be expected, just like us bettors have hot and cold streaks for no particular reason.

Im going to go back in a time machine to the year 1983 and tell Woody Stephens and Charlie Whittingham about this 30-something trainer who wins 23 percent of his races during a COLD STREAK in 2013.

I'll let you know what they said. ;)

[AlbertButtry]

Ruling was dated 3/24 for Mr. Ness

Horse name is actually Awesome Mich......He used to run at Penn

Ruling Text: For having a confirmed positive test for total carbon dioxide (TCO2) levels above 37 millimoles per liter of blood plasma for the horse Awesome Mitch which ran on Sunday, March 17, 2013 , in the third race at Tampa Bay Downs he is fined $2,000 and also has "earned survveillance"for 30 days which requres that any horse the trainer intends to race at Tampa Bay Downs be placed under surveillance for 24 hours prior to the race. The cost of such additional security shall be borne by the trainer.

[davew]

Im going to go back in a time machine to the year 1983 and tell Woody Stephens and Charlie Whittingham about this 30-something trainer who wins 23 percent of his races during a COLD STREAK in 2013.

I'll let you know what they said. ;)

tell them how many 5 and 6 horse races are running these days as well

[chadk66]

Ruling was dated 3/24 for Mr. Ness

Horse name is actually Awesome Mich......He used to run at Penn

Ruling Text: For having a confirmed positive test for total carbon dioxide (TCO2) levels above 37 millimoles per liter of blood plasma for the horse Awesome Mitch which ran on Sunday, March 17, 2013 , in the third race at Tampa Bay Downs he is fined $2,000 and also has "earned survveillance"for 30 days which requres that any horse the trainer intends to race at Tampa Bay Downs be placed under surveillance for 24 hours prior to the race. The cost of such additional security shall be borne by the trainer.they now have "earned surveillance"? that's interesting. bet he doesn't win many races during that "earned surveillance". Does anybody know how many positive tests he has had in his lifetime? There should be a three strikes and your out rule for the whole nation.

[VeryOldMan]

Does anybody know how many positive tests he has had in his lifetime?

Let's see if this link works - it's the link to his page at Thoroughbred Rulings:

http://www.thoroughbredrulings.com/default.asp?RTReport=2&From=SRCH&EPID=164292&L=Ness&M=%20&F=Jamie&LAST=NESS&SHOWSEARCH=YES

Too many (47!) for me to go through - some of the recent ones had nothing to do with drugs, although a number were overages of what I think are otherwise legal drugs (more knowledgeable folks on this board can correct me).

What caught my eye about the current one is that its a TCO2 violation - didn't see that in any of the violations from the past 3 years. Have there been "milkshaking" rumors about him in the past? Is it finally catching up with him or is this a new angle?

[chadk66]

I'm sure things have advanced immensely but back when I was training they changed what they were testing for all the time. they didn't have the technology or the samples to test for everything. they had to pick and choose what they tested for. and for some reason the vets always knew what they were testing for. or at least 90% of the time.

[AlbertButtry]

https://www.arci-members.com/publicpages/publicrulings.asp

I use this when I look up rulings.

[chadk66]

https://www.arci-members.com/publicpages/publicrulings.asp

I use this when I look up rulings.that's a huge list

[Stillriledup]

Ness cant seem to hit the board at Pimlico. In today's DRF he's 9 0 0 0 at the meet and just had another horse, Oilton, first time claim, finish 4th in a 5 horse field (only beating 23-1 no hoper to the wire).

[Striker]

they now have "earned surveillance"? that's interesting. bet he doesn't win many races during that "earned surveillance".
Anyone keeping track of how he is doing since this went into effect?

[Beachbabe]

I see where Mandy Ness has a horse entered in the 4th at Pimlico.
Owned by " Jagger Inc", not Midwest Thoroughbreds.

[VeryOldMan]

Ness cant seem to hit the board at Pimlico. In today's DRF he's 9 0 0 0 at the meet and just had another horse, Oilton, first time claim, finish 4th in a 5 horse field (only beating 23-1 no hoper to the wire).

I wouldn't put much stock (one way or the other) into the Oilton result. I follow the MD/WV circuit - Oilton is a durable hard-knocking claimer. Almost freakishly durable in today's environment. Ness's connections claimed Oilton out of a winning effort, so his inability to replicate that doesn't suggest anything sinister and might be in his favor.

[chadk66]

how can you have 47 violations and still be working in this industry? that wouldn't have happened in the 80's in most of the states I trained in. you would be gone after two or three.

[Stillriledup]

how can you have 47 violations and still be working in this industry? that wouldn't have happened in the 80's in most of the states I trained in. you would be gone after two or three.

He's got sore wrists, but still has a license.

Do trainers find their licenses at the bottom of cracker jack boxes? Sure doesnt seem like there's any 'licensing body' who revokes and denies licenses from people who dont seem to know how to play by the rules.

[VeryOldMan]

how can you have 47 violations and still be working in this industry? that wouldn't have happened in the 80's in most of the states I trained in. you would be gone after two or three.

How did they deal with paperwork or non drug violations back then? I'm not busting on you - I'm curious.

I just looked at number of his violations on Thoroughbred Rulings - there certainly are drug overages but also a bunch that were like these (my numbering of the cut and pastes and sorry for the all caps, guys). Just trying to sort out what the right "count" should be for him for truly bad stuff (and I certainly realize it's higher than Graham Motion's, e.g.).

1. OWNER/TRAINER JAMIE NESS AND STABLE ""JAGGER, INC"", IS HEREBY SUSPENDED FOR FAILURE TO PAY A NOMINATION FEE.

2. BRINGING THE HORSE FUN AND GAINS TO THE PADDOCK FOR THE 8TH RACE ON NOVEMBER 23, 2012 WITH IMPROPER SHOES IN VIOLATION OF PENN NATIONAL SHOEING POLICY.

3. ARRIVING LATE FOR LASIX TREATMENT WITH THE HORSE JOEPAUL'S TREASURE ENTERED IN THE 1ST RACE, JULY 24, 2012, IN VIOLATION OF PA. CODE, TITLE 58, SECTION 163.305(H) & (K).

4. FAILURE TO HAVE THE FOAL CERTIFICATE ON FILE WITH THE HORSE IDENTIFIER FOR PEACEANDACTION IN THE FIRST RACE, AUGUST 9, 2011.

[VeryOldMan]

P.S. - this Ness violation blew me away (I wasn't on this board when it happened). Isn't the absolute fundamental here that the horse running the race and that we are wagering on is indeed the horse in the program? I show up and wager on Seattle Slew and instead learn after the fact it was Seattle Slow? Just a fine to the trainer and yet I'm still out my wager - that is messed up.

ENTERING AND RUNNING THE WRONG HORSE (RAPID RAMPAGE) AS ROME IS FREEZING FOR THE THIRD RACE ON JULY 13, 2011 IN VIOLATION OF PA. CODE, TITLE 58, SECTION 163.91, 163.108, AND 165.201.

[Stillriledup]

P.S. - this Ness violation blew me away (I wasn't on this board when it happened). Isn't the absolute fundamental here that the horse running the race and that we are wagering on is indeed the horse in the program? I show up and wager on Seattle Slew and instead learn after the fact it was Seattle Slow? Just a fine to the trainer and yet I'm still out my wager - that is messed up.

ENTERING AND RUNNING THE WRONG HORSE (RAPID RAMPAGE) AS ROME IS FREEZING FOR THE THIRD RACE ON JULY 13, 2011 IN VIOLATION OF PA. CODE, TITLE 58, SECTION 163.91, 163.108, AND 165.201.

Which track was this? PID?

[VeryOldMan]

Which track was this? PID?
Correct.

[davew]

P.S. - this Ness violation blew me away (I wasn't on this board when it happened). Isn't the absolute fundamental here that the horse running the race and that we are wagering on is indeed the horse in the program? I show up and wager on Seattle Slew and instead learn after the fact it was Seattle Slow? Just a fine to the trainer and yet I'm still out my wager - that is messed up.

ENTERING AND RUNNING THE WRONG HORSE (RAPID RAMPAGE) AS ROME IS FREEZING FOR THE THIRD RACE ON JULY 13, 2011 IN VIOLATION OF PA. CODE, TITLE 58, SECTION 163.91, 163.108, AND 165.201.

What about the guy that checked the tattoo working for the track/racing commission?
It can't be easy managing a stable with horses at 5+ tracks with 100+ employees, and you are 1000 miles away. A couple brown 2 year old new purchases come into your training center and get sent to Delaware Park and Presque Isle for their first race. Only no one really knows which one is which...

[chadk66]

those four issues are somewhat minor and as single events don't warrant much of penalty. But four added up should. The nomination issue was him nominating a horse and either he or the horses owner didn't have the funds in his horseman's account to cover it. being late for the lasix barn is a no no. the shoes in the paddock issue could be a simple showing up to the paddock with toe grab shoes for a turf race. not allowed at most tracks. also having no papers in the office when you show up at the paddock for a race is also a no no. these things show me he has too damn many horses and he can't take care of business. I tried forty horses in one stable once. and it was the last time. twenty horses is about the max you can have and do your horses and your owners true justice. now you can have twenty at each track with an assistant trainer there with them, but in all honesty your really not training them the assistant is. But back in the day you didn't have multiple medication penalties without serious consequences. I trained for seven years and I was never brought into the stewards office for a single issue. No overages, no wrong equipment in the paddock, no being late to the lasix barn, etc. You have to take care of business. And that means hiring the best help on the track. I had the same grooms for pretty much the seven years I trained. Other trainers didn't appreciate the fact that I paid my help alot higher than they did. But once I found top notch help I kept them. And the horses love consistency.

[gheuks]

his entries at pimlico are way down. If I can recall correctly, he won the training title at pimlico last spring. He also seems to have parted ways with jockey Abel Castellano who had been his main man in Maryland for a while.

[thaskalos]

In today's first race at Tampa...would the #5 horse (Sorry No Refunds) have gone off at odds of 4/5 -- and won by 4.5 lengths -- if it was trained by anyone other than Jamie Ness?

[lamboguy]

In today's first race at Tampa...would the #5 horse (Sorry No Refunds) have gone off at odds of 4/5 -- and won by 4.5 lengths -- if it was trained by anyone other than Jamie Ness?there are a few others, but i catch your drift

[OCF]

P.S. - this Ness violation blew me away (I wasn't on this board when it happened). Isn't the absolute fundamental here that the horse running the race and that we are wagering on is indeed the horse in the program? I show up and wager on Seattle Slew and instead learn after the fact it was Seattle Slow? Just a fine to the trainer and yet I'm still out my wager - that is messed up.

ENTERING AND RUNNING THE WRONG HORSE (RAPID RAMPAGE) AS ROME IS FREEZING FOR THE THIRD RACE ON JULY 13, 2011 IN VIOLATION OF PA. CODE, TITLE 58, SECTION 163.91, 163.108, AND 165.201.

I'm glad this thread got hit again, because I had meant to ask how often this (running the wrong horse) occurs, particularly in light of ChadK66's post about the other four violations.

IMO runninng the wrong horse is unforgivable, to both the track and the trainer. I didn't play the track anyway, and can't understand why all hell didn't break loose over the violation. But maybe it's not all that uncommon? :confused:

[chadk66]

running the wrong horse is inexcuseable. I can't imagine he's training for those owners involved anymore. if he is they're dumber than a stump. This could only happen for the following reasons.
1. you have too many horses in your barn
2. you have help that is either drunk, retarded or both
3. your in the grandstand at the bar counting on the help to handle things for you
4. you found out they were testing for meds you had given your horse and knew that if you led the wrong horse up there it would be scratched. you just pay the fine and walk around with your head down for a few days.
5. you just flat don't have a clue what your doing.

you decide

[therussmeister]

running the wrong horse is inexcuseable. I can't imagine he's training for those owners involved anymore. if he is they're dumber than a stump. This could only happen for the following reasons.
1. you have too many horses in your barn
2. you have help that is either drunk, retarded or both
3. your in the grandstand at the bar counting on the help to handle things for you
4. you found out they were testing for meds you had given your horse and knew that if you led the wrong horse up there it would be scratched. you just pay the fine and walk around with your head down for a few days.
5. you just flat don't have a clue what your doing.

you decide
1 and 3* both apply, but in the case of 3 he probably wasn't at the bar, he wasn't even at the track, since he runs horses at several tracks.

[johnhannibalsmith]

... I can't imagine he's training for those owners involved anymore. if he is they're dumber than a stump. ...

Pretty sure he still trains for Midwest TB.

[johnhannibalsmith]

... This could only happen for the following reasons.
1. you have too many horses in your barn
...

Pretty sure the story went as follows:

Two unraced horses stabled at Delaware. One is entered at PID. Both on the wheel the morning of the PID race. Groom allegedly put the wrong horse in the wrong stall, they shipped over to PID with the wrong horse, the paddock identifier at PID just blew it, the horse ran. The other horse was in at Delaware. The vet or someone was by to do pre-race exam and flipped the lip on the other one and it didn't match. The tattoo that they saw matched the horse at PID. Or something like that.

[Striker]

Pretty sure they both were 2yos and Bay Geldings but still no excuse for that to happen.

[chadk66]

then they're in it as deep as he is:)

[chadk66]

hopefully there is an unemployed identifier. I will tell you this, it is highly unlikely the groom let the wrong horse ship. mixing them up in the stall would have happened for about twenty minutes and then it would have been discovered. so I take it the person in charge wasn't there to oversee the loading of the horse. this hits on at least two or three on my list. Like I've stated before 40 horses is too many, 20 is about right. Any more and owners are loosing out and the trainer is screwing stuff up. And worst of all the horses are not being taken care of or handled properly. you have to have amazing staff to pull off a 40 horse stable and/or stables at multiple tracks. And I can tell you from experience there isn't enough of that quality of help around. at least not people I'd put my training license in the hands of.

[Striker]

Like I've stated before 40 horses is too many, 20 is about right. Any more and owners are loosing out and the trainer is screwing stuff up.
Ness trains easily over 100 horses for Midwest, and how many does Midwest have overall now?

[chadk66]

that's ridiculous.

[maclr11]

He won a lot more races in his career than you did
He's won a lot more races in his career than I ever well
Why are we sitting here knocking him
He hasn't been thrown out of racing yet, he's stayed ahead of the science like the big guys out there.
I'm not going to sit here and say he should be doing things different when all he's done is win races and make money for himself and the owner.
Midwest obviously didn't have a problem with it and the comission didnt bury him.
He has always shown himself as an adapter and a learner ever since he had some struggles as a kid at Turf Paradise one winter and at Canterbury. He took the time to learn what it took to win and he's doing it, good for him. None of my business, the rest of us just have to work that much harder to compete.

[Stillriledup]

He won a lot more races in his career than you did
He's won a lot more races in his career than I ever well
Why are we sitting here knocking him
He hasn't been thrown out of racing yet, he's stayed ahead of the science like the big guys out there.
I'm not going to sit here and say he should be doing things different when all he's done is win races and make money for himself and the owner.
Midwest obviously didn't have a problem with it and the comission didnt bury him.
He has always shown himself as an adapter and a learner ever since he had some struggles as a kid at Turf Paradise one winter and at Canterbury. He took the time to learn what it took to win and he's doing it, good for him. None of my business, the rest of us just have to work that much harder to compete.

.supertrainers who 'make mistakes' seem to never get fired by their owners. Funny how it works that way.

[maclr11]

Why would you fire a trainer who's winning races and making money
Jamie ness doesn't have an atrocious breakdown record
His horses look good they don't have the skin disease like broberg or Evans
So if ness is taking care of his horses, hiring good help, winning races and making money
Then why as an owner would I ever even think about leaving him until I'm force too.

[Stillriledup]

Why would you fire a trainer who's winning races and making money
Jamie ness doesn't have an atrocious breakdown record
His horses look good they don't have the skin disease like broberg or Evans
So if ness is taking care of his horses, hiring good help, winning races and making money
Then why as an owner would I ever even think about leaving him until I'm force too.

You could fire him if you have morals and don't want to be associated with a person who has numerous violations, but you're right, other than that, many owners usually sign up for the dont ask dont tell program.