Question on Bucked shins

[Suff]

Can a 3YO colt that was unraced as a 2YO, and lightly worked as a 2YO, develop Bucked shins? Or are they exclusive to 2 YO's? I'm thinking the Cannon Bone is to developed at 3 to Buck?

When the VET prescribes rest for the Modeling and Re-modeling of the cannon bone... are they speaking about the Natural process of the top layer of Immature Bone developing ?

Or are they themsleves shaping the bone? Using a Local Anasthetic or something? And/or a sedative? And actually filing down the Immature bone?

Who does this? Always the Veternarian? And how many times? in say a 90 day rest period?



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[so.cal.fan]

A horse can shin buck at 3.
Answer to second question.....yes.
Answer to third question.....no
Answer to forth question.....the trainer or owner can do it themselves....doesn't need the vet to do it.
Ice bandages two or three times a day& rest will help reduce swelling. Vet supply shops will sell potions of iodine or other meds to help with the healing.
Takes anywhere from 3 weeks to 6 weeks depending on the severity.

[PaceAdvantage]

Don't take offense, but I am moving this to General Racing Discussion....I'm feeling very moderator like today....LOL

[DJofSD]

Yes, as already stated, it can experience bucked shins until the growth plate solidifies.

DJofSD

[Suff]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Don't take offense, but I am moving this to General Racing Discussion....I'm feeling very moderator like today....LOL

Does'nt matter to me where you put it. But you know it irks me when you edit or move my material. But still its ok. Because your the King and its your castle.

I'm not resigning, or quiting. Matter of fact.. I may make make the same post in General Handicapping again and make you move another one! How do you like them apples?

Seriously though... I do get irked at things out here like anyone else. And I'm not shy about speaking my mind. Off the top of my head I recall some pretty good rows with GR1, The entire espn board, Marc at DRF, Vetscratch... few more I'd imagine. Oh yeah.. Karls Korner recently threw a haymaker at me.. but no worry's because besides Handicapping my next strong suit is my ability to take a Punch. A good punch once and a while will keep a man sharp

2 years ago xpressbet.com built a Little Booth at Suffolk Downs. I gave the guy 50 bucks, came home to play, and I've been here since.
Before that I went to Suffolk downs 3-6 days a week and Played horses.
I'm a horse player.

I'm not a scientist or computer whiz, I have nothing to sell, nor anything to prove. I have'nt written a book. I'm a construction worker who plays the Horses.

I scrutinize races, I open my wallet and I put my money where my mouth is. Alot. And Big. I bet $50.00 to $250.00 a race. I bet races virtually everyday. I'm no whale. But I've been around long enough to know...I'm a player.

I'm here for the players and I'm here for the show. And there is no show without the players.

[Suff]

Mike thanks for a great year! Happy Holidays to you and yours.

Your friend

Mike Dudley

[PaceAdvantage]

Suff, the only reason I moved it was because it had more to do with general racing and less to do with handicapping. Maybe I'm wrong? I generally like to see horse physicality issues discussed in general racing.....maybe I'm splitting hairs....I figure those who might be better able to answer your question would be cruising the General Racing Discussion section....

In any event, HAPPY THANKSGIVING!

[SandyE]

Even at 3 a horse is still growing. The norm is that a horse stops growing when it's 4 or 5 years old. Even horses who were in training/racing as two year olds can devople bucked shins, problems with knees, hocks elbows.
PA I think you did good in moving this thread over to general horseracing forum. Hope all had a fantabolous Thanksgiving and didn't over indulge with food. If you haven't already check out the age other breeds start horses under saddle. I've always wondered about that late start making it harder to train them or easier.

[VetScratch]

SandyE,

In line with your post, I think an increasing number of horsemen are recognizing bone/joint growth/maturation issues. Many trainers now encourage owners to break yearlings earlier, turn them out to let nature respond to what has been asked of them, and go back into training as 2YO's after a 75-120 day turnout. Have you noticed a decrease in early shin/knee problems when this is done, as opposed to going right on with youngsters after they are broken?

[Whitehos]

Harness trainers heve been doing this for a long time.

[SandyE]

I've noticed the new trend. Also it helps with the second career these horses take on later on after their 3 year old season. Sheppardson, Clay and other trainers/conditioners who have both flat runners and chasers/jumpers run horses first on the flat to teach them to race first then onward to the jump courses to see if the horse can compete there as well. I've a feeling this years dual classic winner will be conditioned to compete over jumps. He's got 2 to 3 years before he can compete over fences/jumps so I wouldn't be surprised if that's the long term goal for Funny Cide. His conditioner is better known in the jump world that is until this year that is. The horse looks like he has the conformation for jumping.
Could you imagine if more TB trainers/conditoners on the flat were to follow suit how many more would be racing until at least the age of 4 if not 5? That would be totally awesome to see more older horses racing.
Sandy

[Suff]

Originally posted by SandyE
Even at 3 a horse is still growing. The norm is that a horse stops growing when it's 4 or 5 years old. Even horses who were in training/racing as two year olds can devople bucked shins, problems with knees, hocks elbows.


I'm under the Impression that BUCKEDSHINS are a DIRECT result of over training as a 2YO. That virtually ALL cases of bucked shins were exclusively in 2YO and it was RARE for a feb-march Foal to develop Bucked shins as a 3YO.. although now I see it does Happen...

But I still think its PREDOMANITE in 2YO's..and less Frequent in 3YO's...and never in 4 or 5YO's. I'm talking bucked shins here... not other Bone issues...

Also... I have a List of 2YO's that went to the bench for BUCKED SHINS and will be appearing off the Bench at GulfStream park. On that list were 5, 3 YO's. So I was validating the verocity of that list to re-enforce my Handicapping and wagering decisions on these Animals.. So the question is Handicap in nature... but as I said I don't care where it goes..

I argue with PA because I enjoy it and as any great writer would..I disagree with my Editor frequently.

Now.. as far as the condition.. correct me. Owners pressure trainers to get a Colt ready. Or whatever the circumstances.. They over train the Horse... The Cannon Bone degenerates... The Chemical or whatever it is that regnerates and strengthens the BONE.. produces itself in insuffiecent quantities ..but the bone still develops in shape..BUT IS A WEAK BONE.. so they shave it down.. and put no training stress on it for 60-120 days and allow it to GROW naturally.. Hence..More mature and stronger?

This explains SOME 30-90 day gaps in a YOUNG horse's AM activity.. You see a 2 year old out in the AM twice a month for 3 months.. then no works for a MONTH or TWO... HIGHLY Likely the stress of training and his development were not in sink.

How wrong am I?

[VetScratch]

Suff,

Old trainers like to say, "Shave too much leg, then shame on you... you'll have to whittle a new one!"

Seriously, however, the bone shaving you mention may have come from talk about confirmation surgeries that have unfortunately become popular among breeders.

For shin bucked horses, only hair might be shaved before a blistering agent is applied, but that type of treatment with strong irritants is no longer recommended by younger vets. Years ago, brewing a potent blister paint was a respected art, and many trainers had their own secret formula.

[Suff]

Originally posted by VetScratch
Suff,



Seriously, however, the bone shaving you mention may have come from talk about confirmation surgeries that have unfortunately become popular among breeders.



So the orginal answer to my orginal question is still not answered or understood by me.

When the VET prescribes rest for the Modeling and Re-modeling of the cannon bone... are they speaking about the Natural process of the top layer of Immature Bone developing ?

Or are they themsleves shaping the bone? Using a Local Anasthetic or something? And/or a sedative? And actually filing down the Immature bone?

I understood the answer to be that a Procedure (s) was performed.

Now I'm seeing where your suggesting that a basic " blistering agent" is applied.. or was in yesteryear... But what I am asking now is

What excactly is done when the follwing is taken verbatim


When the VET prescribes rest for the Modeling and Re-modeling of the cannon bone... are they speaking about the Natural process of the top layer of Immature Bone developing ? while using anti-anflammatory? anti-blister medication?

I mean does anyone know a HARD answer here? wtf do they do? Rub some grass on it and pray to thier Fairy God Mother?

[Suff]

Don't mistake from my tone..That I am not grateful in advance to anyone that can educate me..and to those that have attemtped to..

I realize I am asking someone with Valuable information to share it with me freely... and I appreciate it.

[VetScratch]

Suff,

Pure rest is 85% of the treatment, and cold-water hosing plus other anti-inflammatory measures consitute the remainder. The main thing is early detection and immediate rest; otherwise, if you persist with training, the result is more aggravation, and the inflammation can last for six weeks or more (even if nothing more serious has been precipitated by training a shin bucked horse).

[witchdoctor]

Bone remodels as you stress it. The type of strss is important. The following webpage goe into the Maryland Shin Study which is probably the best study looking at ways to prevent bucked shins.

http://www.ctba.com/00magazine/oct00/news2.htm

[VetScratch]

Witchdoctor,

Excellent reference link!

Some handicapper's demand a promising succession of three or more official works before they will bet a first-time-starter.

However, if you check the Woolsey training regimen chart (see Witchdoctor's link) (and correct the time in the bottom line to 52 for 4f), you can see how trainers can slip in one or two unregistered works past the end of this regimen, then win off of the "one mandatory official work" that is required in most racing venues.

[witchdoctor]

We take our horses over to WRD in Claremore and work them. They get a lot of works that are not officially timed. Having just been to Ocala and seeing training tracks on just about every street corner I suspect that a lot of the horses in Florida don't have many official works also.

[richo]

I think what you call bucked shins is what we call shin soreness in aus a lot of it is cause by immature bone being put under to much pressure but there is no set rule you can work 5 2yolds the same and 2 will go sore and the others don't. The best thing i use for babies is time give them a spell and start again some will go again and then i give them a light blister and tend to work them through it and then spell again. i have had horses go sore up to 5yolds and in some i think its an inherited weakness because i have had 4 or 5 foals out of the same mare and all of them went sore. what blister does is scar the bone where there are small cracks from the pressure and scar tissue works just like a weld and heals and toughens .

[Suff]

What a let down... You hear all these fancy words surrounding Horse ailments... and trainer treatments...such as "modeling and re-modeling of the cannon bone"..

and thats the STANDARD answer given for the "treatment" of bucked shins.

Now it appears... They do nothing but leave the Horse in the BARN , resting.

and the "modleing and re-modeling" of the cannon bone is what the trainer types on the INVOICE to the owner for "treatment"...and to explain to the owner why the animal has'nt moved in 45 days.


Nice work if you can get it.

[VetScratch]

Suff,

Unless you or a friend have been dealing with a shyster trainer, you won't find silly line items like "bone modeling" or "bone re-modeling" on a trainer's billing statement. If you have such a statement, pin a copy up on the public bulletin board in the racing office. Humiliation is often the best way to drive the shysters out of the business or into the bushes.

Simple guidelines for typical owners:
(1) Insist that all veterinary procedures are billed to you by veterinarians... you should get copies of handwritten procedure tickets (that were written at the time of treatment) to substantiate the charges on computer-generated statements from veterinarians.
(2) Likewise, insist on direct billing for commerical vanning.
(3) Don't authorize agency transactions by trainers unless you can set restrictions on purpose and amounts (as you can at some tracks). Never let a trainer pay himself out of your horsemen's account. You should authorize all payments to trainers, and some tracks will honor Internet and/or phone requests, just like banks do, to cut checks and/or transfer funds.
(4) Except for day rate charges, only extraordinary items should appear on your training bill. Other than pass-through charges from ferriers, classy barns don't nickel and dime you to death. Don't be bashful about comparing notes with other owners and shopping for the best deal among the "good" barns at any track.

BTW, when you shop around... lack of interest in taking your horses is usually motivated by friendships among barns... few trainers like to show up at a friend's barn with a group of boys and a bunch of halters to lead your horses away. Otherwise, changing barns is always an option.

[VetScratch]

One more thing... don't spread criticism of your current trainer when you shop for a new one. This will only earn you the reputation of a "pain-in-the-ass" owner. Downplay criticism of your current barn when you shop for a new one.

[VetScratch]

That is... find your horses a new home before you launch a consumer advocacy campaign to drive a "full-fledged fraud" off the track. Some folks aren't aggressive consumers, but I think "bone re-modelers" belong back in the interior decoration trade.