Home Bible Study Group Fined

[cj's dad]

In Orange County Ca., a couple has been fined $300 for having friends over for a bible study.

Anyone think this would happen to Muslims ?

Snip> MISSION VIEJO (CBS) — An Orange County couple has been ordered to stop holding a Bible study in their home on the grounds that the meeting violates a city ordinance as a “church” and not as a private gathering. Homeowners Chuck and Stephanie Fromm, of San Juan Capistrano, were fined $300 earlier this month for holding what city officials called “a regular gathering of more than three people”. <Snip




http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2011/09/20/oc-couple-threatened-with-500-per-meeting-fines-for-home-bible-study/

[Tom]

THIS is exactly what the constitution was meant to prevent.
Where is the ACLU???
Where is Obama???
Where is hcap????
Where is Car 54??????

[cj's dad]

I have to assume that if there were 10 consenting adults in the home having group sex that would be ok.

However, having a group of 10 reading and discussing scripture is illegal.

No wonder it's called by some the "land of fruits and nuts".

[Steve 'StatMan']

What is the purpose of this law? “a regular gathering of more than three people”. That means no bridge, pinochle (sp?), euchre, poker groups, book clubs (at same home on a frequent basis.)

Are they using this to curtail gang activity elsewhere? Is it succeeding?

Something's very wrong here. Although the article says they have 50 people over on Thursday afternoons - that does seem excessive for a single home - although in OC they likely are outside in all the great weather.

This isn't right. There has to be some compromise somehow. Like no fines, and alter the meeting place throughout the month or something.

[Tom]

The only acceptable outcome is NO compromise.
There people have the right to assemble and pray or whatever the hell else they want to do.

This is when you fight back.
THIS is why we have the second amendment!

[elysiantraveller]

While a lot of people might think this is some big government conspiracy thing or a weird anti-religious persecution here is what probably happened:

Many cities/towns throughout the country have these types of ordinances in place for public safety. A neighbor, probably pissed at the 20 plus cars blocking up his street every week, anonymously called the cops, and a citation was issued.

Or...

...there is a massive anti-christian/big government/spaghetti monster consipracy...

[DJofSD]

Tell those self-rightous SOBs up there in San Juan Capistrano they need to change the name of their city. They are in violation of the separation of church and state and fine them $1,000,000 a day until they do change it.

[TJDave]

I have to assume that if there were 10 consenting adults in the home having group sex that would be ok.


The odds of getting nine people together wanting to have sex with me at the same time would be astronomical.

I'd call it a miracle.

(and well worth 300 dollars)

[Dave Schwartz]

Not so fast... When I first read this I was appalled but then I read a little more carefully.

First, I am a devout Christian. I understand that "home Bible studies" are a mainstay of the active Christian's life.

That being said, even I would have a problem with my next-door neighbor having FIFTY guests twice a week.

Religion aside, imagine if your neighbor threw two such parties every week. Cars lining the street, difficulties getting in and out of your own home. I would have no problem putting a stop to that.

There is a point where a "home Bible study" becomes a church and needs all the necessary permits and licenses that go with having a church.

IMHO, this is not about "religious freedom." Rather, it is about one family using their home for a purpose that would cause hardship on others.


Just my opinion.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[cj's dad]

Typical wacko lib response. The law states more than 3 as in three people. If 4 came in seperate vehicles I doubt it would cause massive parking problems in the 'hood, unless all were driving 18 wheelers.

While a lot of people might think this is some big government conspiracy thing or a weird anti-religious persecution here is what probably happened:

Many cities/towns throughout the country have these types of ordinances in place for public safety. A neighbor, probably pissed at the 20 plus cars blocking up his street every week, anonymously called the cops, and a citation was issued.

Or...

...there is a massive anti-christian/big government/spaghetti monster consipracy...

[DJofSD]

Dave, I take it you do not have any Mexicans living in your neighborhood. Sunday is family day, and, lots of relatives usually show up. You should see the amount of cars parked on the street then.

[Dave Schwartz]

Dave, I take it you do not have any Mexicans living in your neighborhood.

DJ,

LOL - Not so much. I know exactly what you are talking about though. Four years ago, our next-door neighbors were in a short-sale process. They rented their house to a Mexican family. Actually, they were amazingly great people.

Dad and mom appeared to be the primary breadwinners. He worked for a maintenance company and mom was a maid. Their 21 year old son did "something he didn't want to discuss." Mom and dad had old, beat-up car and truck. Son had TWO black Escalades.

BTW, the son lived in the master bedroom so I assume he was the one fronting the bills.

The gang-bangers (or wannabe look-alikes) would hang out several times a week. The kid was always respectful and pleasant. Frankly, I never saw anything that resembled thug-like behavior; only "the look."

Once or twice a month mom would send over enchiladas or tacos as a sample. "Want more? Only $1 each," the daughter would tell us.

Every Friday night was a party. They got smart and invited us. (How can you complain about the party when you are AT the party?)

When the little kids started jumping on the trampoline at 12:30 one night with the music blaring, I politely told the son that this was not okay. After that, the parties got quiet after about midnight. (Dad did get drunk one Friday night and was out howling at the moon and peeing in the street at 2am. Again, the son expressed genuine remorse and it never happened again.)

While this is certainly a more extreme example, neither this nor the "50 visitors" should be permitted on a regular basis IF THE NEIGHBORS COMPLAIN.

I wonder: Did the neighbors complain?

[cj's dad]

I wonder: Did the neighbors complain?

From the article:

Neighbors have written letters to the city in support of the Fromms, whom they said have not caused any disturbances with the meetings, according to PJI.

[DJofSD]

Thank, Dave, for the detailed and entertaining response. Yes, I agree, they are an interesting and wonderful group of people.

[boxcar]

Not so fast... When I first read this I was appalled but then I read a little more carefully.

First, I am a devout Christian. I understand that "home Bible studies" are a mainstay of the active Christian's life.

That being said, even I would have a problem with my next-door neighbor having FIFTY guests twice a week.

Religion aside, imagine if your neighbor threw two such parties every week. Cars lining the street, difficulties getting in and out of your own home. I would have no problem putting a stop to that.

There is a point where a "home Bible study" becomes a church and needs all the necessary permits and licenses that go with having a church.

IMHO, this is not about "religious freedom." Rather, it is about one family using their home for a purpose that would cause hardship on others.


Just my opinion.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

Well stated, David. Plus there is another dimension to this story that is disturbing. This Christian group or church has lost it's testimony before the world, i.e. the unbelievers in the neighborhood where the meetings are held. So whatever good they think they may be reaping within their group, they are reaping nothing but resentment and anger from outsiders. Where is this group's concern for their testimony before the world?

1 Thess 4:12
12...so that you may behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.
NASB

Phil 1:27
27 Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ...
NASB

Col 4:5
5 Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity.
NASB

Where is the wisdom in antagonizing another professing believer's neighbors?

1 Peter 2:12
12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may on account of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.
NASB

I don't think this guy's neighbors have the glory of God in mind. It has to be the farthest thing from their mind. Conversely, all Christians are commanded to glorify God in all things they do -- all things. This home group has surely failed in this regard with respect to the home owner's neighbors.

1 Cor 10:31
31 Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
NASB

And so now, the group is appealing the city's decision to a court? I can only hope they will come to see the biblical wisdom in withdrawing it.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

From the article:

Neighbors have written letters to the city in support of the Fromms, whom they said have not caused any disturbances with the meetings, according to PJI.

But others have complained? So, we have sympathizers and complainers? He says, she says...?

Boxcar

[boxcar]

By the way as an aside....my church is a big believer in discipleship groups, which we simply call "small groups" that meet in people's homes. We have about 150 members in our church and about 10 or so small groups. We try to keep the groups "small" for various reasons, but one of them is also to make sure no group upsets any of the home owner's neighbors...certainly...if we can help it we don't want to be a nuisance to anyone.

And about every 3 or 4 months or so, we hold a Spurgeon's Night, which is more of a fellowship and informally constructed topical bible study -- and then food, drinks, cigar-fest (if so inclined) afterward. Usually, the attendance is much larger for this kind of meeting, so they are planned for the larger homes that would also be able to accommodate more vehicles in the host's driveway, lawn, etc.

Boxcar

[LottaKash]

Or... ...there is a massive anti-christian/big government/spaghetti monster consipracy...

Here is a quote from J. Edgar Hoover:..."The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstous he cannot believe it exists"...

Food for thought, eh ?....Keep an open mind & eye, to all that is happening lately in this nation, I'd say...

best,

[canleakid]

come on guys don't get your panties is a wad, it is just a freaking "city ordinance" not the law of the land if they do not like the ordinance vote the bums out end of story!!!!!!!!! :D

[TJDave]

Dave, I take it you do not have any Mexicans living in your neighborhood. Sunday is family day, and, lots of relatives usually show up. You should see the amount of cars parked on the street then.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Dude, I spend app 1/2 the year in Mexico.

The Sundays I can take. It's the all-night-every-Saturday-nighters that get a bit old.

[LottaKash]

come on guys don't get your panties is a wad, it is just a freaking "city ordinance" not the law of the land if they do not like the ordinance vote the bums out end of story!!!!!!!!! :D

With all due respect canleakid, imo, this is just the beginning of the story in this "New-AmeriKa" of ours....One isolated incident ?...Yes, sure, but still I watch with my eyes wide open, waiting to see what, bit by bit and inch by inch, where this new direction of thinking, that is slowly and surely creeping into "our" daily lives, will take us....Everything is changing in AmeriKa, everything...I see this...

This is only one little thing, for now....(I keep score)

best,

[boxcar]

With all due respect canleakid, imo, this is just the beginning of the story in this "New-AmeriKa" of ours....One isolated incident ?...Yes, sure, but still I watch with my eyes wide open, waiting to see what, bit by bit and inch by inch, where this new direction of thinking, that is slowly and surely creeping into "our" daily lives, will take us....Everything is changing in AmeriKa, everything...I see this...

This is only one little thing, for now....(I keep score)

best,

You're spot-on, LK. There are only a few of us who read and understand the handwriting on the wall. We see which way the nation is trending. The bible is crystal clear on this: Christians will be persecuted, and heavily so as time marches on. Here's another story of harassment:

High School Punishes Student for Saying Homosexuality is Wrong

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/high-school-school-punishes-student-for-saying-homosexuality-is-wrong/

A lib's idea of Freedom is: Free Speech for Me, but not for Thee. I guess we should be thankful the poor kid wasn't arrested and charged with a hate crime. :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[LottaKash]

A lib's idea of Freedom is: Free Speech for Me, but not for Thee. I guess we should be thankful the poor kid wasn't arrested and charged with a hate crime. :rolleyes:

Boxcar

Not yet Box, not just yet....Most, just do not get it yet, they will soon enough, imo...

best,

[canleakid]

With all due respect canleakid, imo, this is just the beginning of the story in this "New-AmeriKa" of ours....One isolated incident ?...Yes, sure, but still I watch with my eyes wide open, waiting to see what, bit by bit and inch by inch, where this new direction of thinking, that is slowly and surely creeping into "our" daily lives, will take us....Everything is changing in AmeriKa, everything...I see this...

This is only one little thing, for now....(I keep score)

best,

:cool: I get your point of view, but I think we need to pick our fights and not just jump on every little thing, cause the real powers that be are just waiting to catch us with their misdirection :rolleyes:

and they keep score too :eek:

[boxcar]

:cool: I get your point of view, but I think we need to pick our fights and not just jump on every little thing, cause the real powers that be are just waiting to catch us with their misdirection :rolleyes:

and they keep score too :eek:

Is that what you would tell cancer patients in danger of dying from their disease? Let's bide our time before we operate? We don't want to operate why the cancer is too small? The the freedom-killing cancer of liberalism is spreading every day, which is why this upcoming election is so crucial.

Boxcar