Is Mariano Rivera one of the best ever to play the game?

[thaskalos]

He is the best closer ever...but where does he rate on the list of the best PLAYERS to ever play the game?

Many fans hold closers in about the same regard as they do the field goal kickers in football...but this guy is really something else...

When you consider his sustained greatness, and his performance under the post-season pressure...he just might be the best baseball player we have seen in decades.

[cj]

Personally, I still consider a closer nothing more than a specialist. At most they can pitch two innings in a game, maybe 6 or 7 innings a week.

Don't get me wrong, he is very good at what he does, probably the best ever. It is also safe to say his number of saves is inflated because he played his whole career on the most expensive team each and every year.

I'm curious statistically, what is the average save percentage compared to Rivera's? How many games does he win you a year over the average closer? Even a blown save doesn't guarantee a loss, so this could get complicated, but I'm sure there are some numbers out there.

[lsbets]

Wasn't there a thread on here about 5 years ago saying he was washed up? :lol:

[ElKabong]

I'm curious statistically, what is the average save percentage compared to Rivera's? How many games does he win you a year over the average closer? Even a blown save doesn't guarantee a loss, so this could get complicated, but I'm sure there are some numbers out there.

Rivera ranks very. MLBTV, or Espn had those #s up. Rivera was right up there.

Releivers are critical. W/o Feliz last year Texas doesn't get anywhere near the WS. I like what Herzog said 20 yrs ago + about building a pitching staff..."Nowdays you build a staff from the 9th inning backwards".

Only within the past 2 yrs would I not agree w/ the above. Starting pitching is more dominant now, but during Rivera's run I'd rank him as a top 10 overall roster guy in MLB.

[PaceAdvantage]

Wasn't there a thread on here about 5 years ago saying he was washed up? :lol:Yes, there was, and every so often, I bring it to life. I was actually going to do so tonight after he got 602 today, but I got sidetracked.

[Canarsie]

In baseball I always give an edge to the 1900-1950 era. They had to play in grey flannel uniforms, travel by train a lot, have off season jobs just for starters.

I wouldn't say best but if it was changed to important there's a good chance he's very high on the list all time.

[Rookies]

Yankee hater...

That being said Rivera is one of the classiest and BEST Pitchers of all time.

I'd rate the Top 5 as follows:

Cy Young
Christy Matthewson
Sandy Koufax
Bob Gibson
Rivera

Rivera has a WHIP of 1.000 for well over 1,000 Innings! Unheard of and his post season greatness is even better!

[headhawg]

Seriously?? In the Top Five pitchers of all time? Showing your Yankee bias are you? Why didn't you just put the Babe in there instead? :rolleyes:

And I don't even want to comment about him being one of the best players in decades. I mean, come on. Really?? A one-inning pitcher?

CJ's post pretty much summed it up for me.

[Valuist]

In baseball I always give an edge to the 1900-1950 era. They had to play in grey flannel uniforms, travel by train a lot, have off season jobs just for starters.

I wouldn't say best but if it was changed to important there's a good chance he's very high on the list all time.

They also only played against a portion of the population. There was plenty of guys playing who wouldn't have been playing if the league was open to everyone.

[cj]

Releivers are critical. W/o Feliz last year Texas doesn't get anywhere near the WS.

Well, not really. It just depends who was in his place as to how much of a difference he made.

[cj]

They also only played against a portion of the population. There was plenty of guys playing who wouldn't have been playing if the league was open to everyone.

It kind of evens out though. There were a lot fewer teams, and thus roster spots, available.

[Rookies]

Seriously?? In the Top Five pitchers of all time? Showing your Yankee bias are you? Why didn't you just put the Babe in there instead? :rolleyes:

And I don't even want to comment about him being one of the best players in decades. I mean, come on. Really?? A one-inning pitcher?

Again, I am a Skankee Hater!

Notwithstanding, it is PRECISELY the fact that he pitches one Inning that is the prime reason why I think Rivera should be rated very high in the pantheon of MLB Pitchers. Virtually, every time he stepped to the mound, it was to protect a close lead and failure in that one inning was not an option. He did that job with such unbelievable regularity year over year over year, that commends him. His failures seemingly can be counted on the fingers of one hand.

And not just against the relative "stiffs" and bottom feeders of baseball. In the Playoffs, against the best of the best, he simply jacked it up! His combined ERA in the Playoffs is about 0.60 and his WHIP is about 0.750! :ThmbUp:

That is simply astonishing... and well catapults him towards the Top 5.

[headhawg]

Then you must have Trevor Hoffman as your sixth best pitcher all-time, right? :rolleyes: I mean, he's second in career saves, his WHIP is 1.058 (even including an awful 2010), and he pitched 18 seasons. And he got his numbers mostly playing with a mediocre Padres team, not a well-stocked, top payroll team like the Yankmees. Hoffman rarely, if ever, gets talked about as being one of the best pitchers of all-time.

To make a closer even relevant the rest of the team has to put him in that position. So how much overall impact does he have really?

Hopefully this gives everyone some perspective. Rivera is the best closer ever, but so what?

[cj's dad]

Yankee hater...

That being said Rivera is one of the classiest and BEST Pitchers of all time.

I'd rate the Top 5 as follows:

Cy Young
Christy Matthewson
Sandy Koufax
Bob Gibson
Rivera

Rivera has a WHIP of 1.000 for well over 1,000 Innings! Unheard of and his post season greatness is even better!

Ahead of Jim Palmer ? R U kiddin' me ?

[cj]

Ahead of Jim Palmer ? R U kiddin' me ?

This is the reason that I think closers are overrated. You could take a whole bunch of starters and turn them into closers and they would be great closers. The fact that they aren't shows where the real value lies.

[Marshall Bennett]

Dennis Eckersley was crucial in getting A's to World Series on a few occasions.

[Valuist]

Guys like Goose Gossage and Bruce Sutter did something a lot more difficult than today's closers do. If the "game situation" called for the fire to be put out with 1 out in the 7th, they came in. And would pitch 2 or sometimes 3 full innings. Every once in a while you see a closer come in with 2 outs in the 8th, but even that is rare.

[melman]

I've always big a huge fan of Rivera. Best closer of all time hands down. His stats for getting 3 or 4 or 5 guys out are out of this world. However in baseball you have to get 27 outs. Put Mariano on this years Chicago Cubs team. For all time pitchers I would rate at least 100 guys before him. All of them would of course be starting pitchers. MLB has changed a great deal over the last 20 years making the closer more important. I think that has diluted just how much MORE important the starter is. In 2008 when the Phils won the WS Brad Lidge went 48-48 on saves. With many of them being post season. Still the MVP of that WS was Cole Hamels. A STARTING pitcher. Without Cole there would have been no chance for Lidge to even show his stuff.

[cj's dad]

WWW.Baseball-Reference.com (http://WWW.Baseball-Reference.com) is the best on the web for info, bar none

Look at these stats which prove beyond a doubt (IMO) two things:

1- today's starters are treated with kid gloves
2- relief pitching is key to winning a pennant/WS

I randomly looked at the Orioles from 60'-'64 -''68 -'72

and found the following-
'60 - 48 complete games - rank-#1 of 8 AL teams
'64 - 44 complete games - rank #3 of 10 AL teams
'68 - 53 complete games - rank #3 of 10 AL teams
'72 - 62 complete games - rank #1 of 12 AL teams
4 year total = 207 complete games
The O's did not play in the WS in any of these years.

Let's look at the last 4 WS winners:
'07 - Boston - 5 complete games - rank #5 of 14 AL teams
'08 - Phila. - 4 complete games - rank #5 of 16 NL teams
'09 - NYY - 3 complete games - rank #11 of 14 AL teams
'10 - SFG - 6 complete games - rank #4 of 16 NL teams

18 complete games by the WS winners in 4 years.

By comparison:

Jim Palmer- 1975:
Games started - 38
Record - 23-11
Complete games - 25

[Marshall Bennett]

Just shows how much pitching has changed. Relief pitchers back in the day were just that and little else. 300 innings were common and complete games were just a day's work. The addition of middle relief and closers certainly added more strategy and art to baseball, but you have to appreciate the old work horses. Fergie Jenkins piled up the complete games and innings, much of it during the heat of the day at Wrigley.

[Canarsie]

WWW.Baseball-Reference.com (http://WWW.Baseball-Reference.com) is the best on the web for info, bar none

Look at these stats which prove beyond a doubt (IMO) two things:

1- today's starters are treated with kid gloves
2- relief pitching is key to winning a pennant/WS

I randomly looked at the Orioles from 60'-'64 -''68 -'72

and found the following-
'60 - 48 complete games - rank-#1 of 8 AL teams
'64 - 44 complete games - rank #3 of 10 AL teams
'68 - 53 complete games - rank #3 of 10 AL teams
'72 - 62 complete games - rank #1 of 12 AL teams
4 year total = 207 complete games
The O's did not play in the WS in any of these years.

Let's look at the last 4 WS winners:
'07 - Boston - 5 complete games - rank #5 of 14 AL teams
'08 - Phila. - 4 complete games - rank #5 of 16 NL teams
'09 - NYY - 3 complete games - rank #11 of 14 AL teams
'10 - SFG - 6 complete games - rank #4 of 16 NL teams

18 complete games by the WS winners in 4 years.

By comparison:

Jim Palmer- 1975:
Games started - 38
Record - 23-11
Complete games - 25

Can I chime in that most of these pitchers from that era never had career threatening injuries.

[Valuist]

Can I chime in that most of these pitchers from that era never had career threatening injuries.

Starting pitchers are like thoroughbreds. They used to do a lot more work, but they get more injuries now.

[cj's dad]

Can I chime in that most of these pitchers from that era never had career threatening injuries.

What the hell does that mean ??

[Canarsie]

What the hell does that mean ??

It means they were never on pitch counts and could go deep into games without getting hurt.

[cj's dad]

It means they were never on pitch counts and could go deep into games without getting hurt.

Marichal - Career - 243 Wins - 142 Losses
Spahn - Career - 363 Wins - 245 Losses

Check this game out and get back to me:
When Marichal and Spahn Dueled for a Game and a Half

From the ninth inning on, Juan Marichal pleaded with his manager, Alvin Dark, to stay in the game. Why shouldn’t he keep pitching? Marichal, the San Francisco Giants (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/baseball/majorleague/sanfranciscogiants/index.html?inline=nyt-org) right-hander with the high leg kick, had held the Milwaukee Braves scoreless. And the Giants had not scored against the ancient left-hander Warren Spahn.

“I begged Mr. Dark to let me stay a few more innings, and he did,” Marichal said of the game 45 years ago Wednesday. “In the 12th or 13th, he wanted to take me out, and I said, ‘Please, please, let me stay.’ Then in the 14th, he said, ‘No more for you,’ and I said, ‘Do you see that man on the mound?’ and I was pointing at Warren. ‘That man is 42, and I’m 25. I’m not ready for you to take me out.’ ”

The full story:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/02/sports/baseball/02nohit.html

Pitch counts really effected their careers. :cool:

[Canarsie]

Marichal - Career - 243 Wins - 142 Losses
Spahn - Career - 363 Wins - 245 Losses

Check this game out and get back to me:
When Marichal and Spahn Dueled for a Game and a Half

From the ninth inning on, Juan Marichal pleaded with his manager, Alvin Dark, to stay in the game. Why shouldn’t he keep pitching? Marichal, the San Francisco Giants (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/baseball/majorleague/sanfranciscogiants/index.html?inline=nyt-org) right-hander with the high leg kick, had held the Milwaukee Braves scoreless. And the Giants had not scored against the ancient left-hander Warren Spahn.

“I begged Mr. Dark to let me stay a few more innings, and he did,” Marichal said of the game 45 years ago Wednesday. “In the 12th or 13th, he wanted to take me out, and I said, ‘Please, please, let me stay.’ Then in the 14th, he said, ‘No more for you,’ and I said, ‘Do you see that man on the mound?’ and I was pointing at Warren. ‘That man is 42, and I’m 25. I’m not ready for you to take me out.’ ”

The full story:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/02/sports/baseball/02nohit.html

Pitch counts really effected their careers. :cool:

I'm agreeing with your first post 100% why are my responses being misconstrued? You posted how many complete games the Orioles had and my response was not one of them were hurt pitching all those innings.

What is it today with my posts they are being taken out of context. :bang:

[pandy]

I remember driving to Yonkers to do the cable broadcast in 1996 and I was listening to the radio and Riviera was wrapping up a save. It was obvious even then that he had terrific stuff. To see him still at the top of his game 15 years later is astonishing.

That being said, he is not one of the all time great pitchers, not even close. Koufax, Cy Young and guys like that are in a completely different class, they could pitch 9 strong innings, not one or two.

I wouldn't argue with anyone who rates him as the best relief pitcher of all time, but relief pitchers cannot be ranked with the all time great every day players or starting pitchers. There are tons of starting pitchers that could have been amazing relief pitchers but they were too good to be relief pitchers. Many top relief pitchers couldn't hack it as starters but they can throw one or two good innings.

[Casino]

Yankee hater...

That being said Rivera is one of the classiest and BEST Pitchers of all time.

I'd rate the Top 5 as follows:

Cy Young
Christy Matthewson
Sandy Koufax
Bob Gibson
Rivera

Rivera has a WHIP of 1.000 for well over 1,000 Innings! Unheard of and his post season greatness is even better!

Koufax doesnt make my top ten.Maddux,Clemens,Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez,all had better careers and thats a fact.

[cj's dad]

I'm agreeing with your first post 100% why are my responses being misconstrued? You posted how many complete games the Orioles had and my response was not one of them were hurt pitching all those innings.

What is it today with my posts they are being taken out of context. :bang:

Sorry- I guess i was not reading your intent properly !!

[Canarsie]

Sorry- I guess i was not reading your intent properly !!


Not a problem your post had me thinking about that era. I didn't look it up but I tried like heck to figure out who closed for Marichal and Gibson and I am drawing blanks. It wasn't very important back then.

It was considered a huge demotion to go to the pen in those days. Also the pay was far less, pitchers fought tooth and nail to stay in the rotation.

[Canarsie]

Koufax doesnt make my top ten.Maddux,Clemens,Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez,all had better careers and thats a fact.

Nothing is "absolute" in sports everything is debatable. If you want to include a steroid user in your top ten that's your prerogative. While its my opinion and my opinion only 90% of baseball fans wouldn't put him in there.

Koufax had a great five years probably the best of any pitcher. The rules were different back then being a bonus baby the Dodgers couldn't send him to the minors. He couldn't crack my top 10 because of a career ending injury.

In my lifetime the best I have seen is Gibson the guy was fearless. If he was pitching today batters would be complaining to the players union.

[cj's dad]

Not a problem your post had me thinking about that era. I didn't look it up but I tried like heck to figure out who closed for Marichal and Gibson and I am drawing blanks. It wasn't very important back then.

It was considered a huge demotion to go to the pen in those days. Also the pay was far less, pitchers fought tooth and nail to stay in the rotation.

Save leaders for :
Cards during Gibson's years:
64- Barry Schultz-14
65- Hal Woodeschick-15
66- Joe Hoerner- 13

Marichal:
64- Bob Shaw- 11
65-Frank Linzy-21
66- Linzy- 16

[Canarsie]

Save leaders for :
Cards during Gibson's years:
64- Barry Schultz-14
65- Hal Woodeschick-15
66- Joe Hoerner- 13

Marichal:
64- Bob Shaw- 11
65-Frank Linzy-21
66- Linzy- 16

That's exactly what I meant. I don't remember any of those guys let alone one.

Just looked it up and the "save" wasn't an official statistic till 1969. They had to make these guys retroactive its amazing what technology can do.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Save

The only way pitchers from the 60's came out earlier then the eighth inning was for a pinch hitter or if they really got "rocked".

You go back as far as me remember this guy and what would the baseball geniuses say today? I don't care that he threw a knuckleball it's a feat that never will be accomplished again. There's a better chance of hitting in 57 straight games which is another impossible record to beat.

Later that season, on July 20, Wood started both ends of a doubleheader, making him the last pitcher to do so.[1] He lost both of those games.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilbur_Wood

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/wilbur_wood_interview.shtml

[Casino]

Nothing is "absolute" in sports everything is debatable. If you want to include a steroid user in your top ten that's your prerogative. While its my opinion and my opinion only 90% of baseball fans wouldn't put him in there.

Koufax had a great five years probably the best of any pitcher. The rules were different back then being a bonus baby the Dodgers couldn't send him to the minors. He couldn't crack my top 10 because of a career ending injury.

In my lifetime the best I have seen is Gibson the guy was fearless. If he was pitching today batters would be complaining to the players union.

Correct,Koufax's dominace was short.As far as the steroid issue,Clemens was great before the juice era.Martinez had sub 2.00 era in the juice era,Maddux was dominate for a long time and so was Johnson.
Nolan Ryan was a all time great.

[melman]

Bob Gibson would be my pick for all time best. But how can anyone compare different era's? Guys like Cy Young and Walter Johnson etc were great in there era. It is fun to talk about however. Two guys that I think do not get enough credit among the "modern era" pitchers are Jim Palmer and Steve Carlton. "Lefty" as Carlton was known once won 27 games on a team that won only 59 for the entire season. :) The way the game has changed over the years the records that will NEVER be broken are all pitching records. Forget JoeD's 57 game hit streak. That was a great feat but someone good get lucky. With the all time pitching records no one has a shot. Geez Cy Young 511 career victoreis.

[Marshall Bennett]

No one would move a batter off the plate better than Gibson. Hitters truly feared him. The mound was lowered in his honor after posting a 1.12 era.

[Casino]

No one would move a batter off the plate better than Gibson. Hitters truly feared him. The mound was lowered in his honor after posting a 1.12 era.

Mccarver said,"Gibson pitched like his car was doubled park"