94,000 NW1 at Philly

[cj]

...and it is won by a slug. I'm not sure how this is good for anyone other than the winning connections of course.

[Stillriledup]

Makes you wonder why owners continue to race horses in So Cal without slots.

Is seeing yourself in the winners circle worth it? Most who own horses in So Cal must think so.

[Robert Goren]

Makes you wonder why owners continue to race horses in So Cal without slots.

Is seeing yourself in the winners circle worth it? Most who own horses in So Cal must think so.
It could have something to with some of the stuff that goes on at Parx.

[Beachbabe]

It was "Owners Day" today.
$880,000 in purses and most races were conditional claimers and only one stake race.

[Stillriledup]

It could have something to with some of the stuff that goes on at Parx.

Really?

[castaway01]

...and it is won by a slug. I'm not sure how this is good for anyone other than the winning connections of course.

Owners Day CJ, purses jacked up for the day.

[jelly]

Race #11 $250,000 race.$193,000 bet on the race.


Owners and trainers betting against each other. :blush:

[cj]

Owners Day CJ, purses jacked up for the day.

Thanks. What day is "Bettor's Day"?

[Pace Cap'n]

Thanks. What day is "Bettor's Day"?

The second Tuesday of next week.

[takeout]

They need to have a day with no takeout and no breakage. They could call it "No Gouge Day".

[thaskalos]

Thanks. What day is "Bettor's Day"?

You beat me to it CJ...that is exactly what I was wondering too...

I guess the only way the bettors will have their day at Parx is if they pool their resources and buy a few Pennsylvania-breds.

[andtheyreoff]

They need to have a day with no takeout and no breakage. They could call it "No Gouge Day".

Great idea. While you're at it, call a local store and ask them if they would give away their stuff for free one day. Then you'd realize how ridiculous the idea of "No Takeout Day" is.

[cj]

Great idea. While you're at it, call a local store and ask them if they would give away their stuff for free one day. Then you'd realize how ridiculous the idea of "No Takeout Day" is.

Actually, at a slots track, it isn't that ridiculous.

[PhantomOnTour]

You know how some tracks roll back their prices to something like the Depression Era for a day at the track?
Sodas...5 cents
Hot Dog...10 cents

How 'bout rolling back that takeout to what it was in 1930?
Just for a day

[Elliott Sidewater]

I live in Pennsylvania and play Parx primarily, Delaware and Penn National occasionally. There is a lot of bashing of PA racing on this board, and I agree with some of what I read - mostly those opinions about the tracks caring more about the casinos than the horse racing. There is a lot of blame to go around, but most of the blame in my view belongs to people in the business end of the game: track management, state racing commissions, and those insular breeding associations. And yes, the death spiral is continuing to swirl. The second, more insidious problem at Pen and Parx is that they're year round tracks. People who work together and compete against each other day in and day out often form friendships and associations that lead people to do each other favors and reciprocate, quid pro quo. Inevitably somebody crosses the line from favoritism and friendship into cheating and we get all huffy and indignant about it. Is it wrong? Yes. Is it avoidable? Possibly, in theory. This won't happen, but breaking the racing calendar into 2 meets, with at least 3 or 4 months break between meets, could be a step forward in combating the chummy, back watching behavior we perceive at these year round tracks. As bettors, you can take it or leave it, there are still a lot of other betting options. Despite the problems that I readily acknowledge at Pen and Parx, I still find these 2 tracks playable and often beatable with enough hard work. And just for disclosure purposes, 1)we own racehorses that run in PA and other mid-Atlantic tracks and 2) Carlos Guerrero does not train for us any more. We all have some negative thoughts about the conduct of horse racing in America today, but continuing to whine, wheeze, and bash won't lead anyone one step closer to the cash, in which I thought we all still have some interest. Or maybe not, maybe some people have quietly given up and are using this board to unload pent up rage from unsuccessful gambling instead of paying a psychologist $150 per hour. If so it's a shame, it could be (and sometimes is) put to many more constructive purposes than that. How can a $94,000 purse won by a "slug" (I disagree, the horse is OK) be bad for racing? You can't force people to bet on the races, but on Owners Day Parx carded 12 races with full fields, which everyone claims they like and are good for the game. Damn, why can't it just be fun sometimes? It still is for me.

[Valuist]

Great idea. While you're at it, call a local store and ask them if they would give away their stuff for free one day. Then you'd realize how ridiculous the idea of "No Takeout Day" is.

Ever hear of a loss-leader? ONE day of no takeout isn't going to kill a track. Especially one like Philly where the purse of a race was bigger than the handle.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

Owners day is basically the store giving their stuff away for free to the owners of the horses that run. The gap between money made in takeout and money paid out in purses on the day would be massive

[takeout]

Between the slot dough and the 30% rake on tris & supers, they ought to be able to do something.

[Tom]

You know how some tracks roll back their prices to something like the Depression Era for a day at the track?
Sodas...5 cents
Hot Dog...10 cents
Win tickets...2 dollars

How 'bout rolling back that takeout to what it was in 1930?
Just for a day

I like!

[Pell Mell]

Ever hear of a loss-leader? ONE day of no takeout isn't going to kill a track. Especially one like Philly where the purse of a race was bigger than the handle.

I can see it now...big sign that says "No Take Today" and all these guys looking at it and saying; "Take What?...I never took anything, what the hell are they talking about?".

The only people I ever met that care about take are on this board...I'm not disparaging anyone here but the tracks don't reduce take because the average bettor doesn't even know what it is and could give a shit less...when they start complaining about the take in state lotteries then maybe something will happen..

[thaskalos]

I live in Pennsylvania and play Parx primarily, Delaware and Penn National occasionally. There is a lot of bashing of PA racing on this board, and I agree with some of what I read - mostly those opinions about the tracks caring more about the casinos than the horse racing. There is a lot of blame to go around, but most of the blame in my view belongs to people in the business end of the game: track management, state racing commissions, and those insular breeding associations. And yes, the death spiral is continuing to swirl. The second, more insidious problem at Pen and Parx is that they're year round tracks. People who work together and compete against each other day in and day out often form friendships and associations that lead people to do each other favors and reciprocate, quid pro quo. Inevitably somebody crosses the line from favoritism and friendship into cheating and we get all huffy and indignant about it. Is it wrong? Yes. Is it avoidable? Possibly, in theory. This won't happen, but breaking the racing calendar into 2 meets, with at least 3 or 4 months break between meets, could be a step forward in combating the chummy, back watching behavior we perceive at these year round tracks. As bettors, you can take it or leave it, there are still a lot of other betting options. Despite the problems that I readily acknowledge at Pen and Parx, I still find these 2 tracks playable and often beatable with enough hard work. And just for disclosure purposes, 1)we own racehorses that run in PA and other mid-Atlantic tracks and 2) Carlos Guerrero does not train for us any more. We all have some negative thoughts about the conduct of horse racing in America today, but continuing to whine, wheeze, and bash won't lead anyone one step closer to the cash, in which I thought we all still have some interest. Or maybe not, maybe some people have quietly given up and are using this board to unload pent up rage from unsuccessful gambling instead of paying a psychologist $150 per hour. If so it's a shame, it could be (and sometimes is) put to many more constructive purposes than that. How can a $94,000 purse won by a "slug" (I disagree, the horse is OK) be bad for racing? You can't force people to bet on the races, but on Owners Day Parx carded 12 races with full fields, which everyone claims they like and are good for the game. Damn, why can't it just be fun sometimes? It still is for me.
I play Parx and Pen regularly - because they offer my kind of races - but I still enjoy bashing them about the way they treat their horse-playing customers.

Both Parx and Pen have THRIVING slot businesses, which have benefitted the tracks and the horsemen enormously...but they seem to have completely forgotten about the horseplayer...

I don't object to PA Racing being extremely generous to the horsemen...but can't they extend some of that generosity to the horseplayers as well?

Should the two tracks with the most profitable slots businesses, also be the ones with the highest takeout rates in existence?

[Elliott Sidewater]

Thask, I don't think that Parx would know how to help the patron horseplayer other than reducing the takeout, which I don't think can be done without state approval. I'd like to see them close the slots and gaming tables during live racing hours only, but what hope do we have of that at Parx, which has the gaming in a separate building now? Most of the patrons are faceless and nameless, betting from home on computers, hundreds or thousands of miles away from the aroma of you know what. Live attendance, which is never taken, is pathetic at this track and at Penn National and at Delaware. If people don't go the track (and they won't, or can't) you can't blame the track entirely for not reaching out to them in some helpful, altruistic way. I know of 2 ways that have been tried over the years, neither was a total failure (but both faded away fast):

1) Several years ago a Md track sent out mystery vouchers that had to be redeemed on a machine at the track. Might have been Pimlico, but it was for a big day only, either the Preakness or Md. Million Day. I was tempted, but unfortunately, having been there, Pimlico has the ambiance and comfort of a correctional facility.

2) Last year Delaware increased exacta payoffs on track by 10%.

I think it was a racing executive in CA that said "the average age of our patrons is deceased, and their average condition is decomposed". HANA may get mad about statements like this one, but I think the executive was on to something. This is not directed at you, but collectively, all the indignation and whining that flies into cyberspace stays in cyberspace. If this forum is all we've got, then it's not nearly enough. If we want change, we should show up in person, contact the publicity/public relations department and speak our minds. A writing campaign to reach the state racing commissions and/or our presence at public hearings might also help. If the people who run the show don't listen, that's on them, but if we don't speak up and tell them what they're doing wrong, and stop expecting them to read our minds, that's on us. Am I wrong?

[Beachbabe]

Thask, I don't think that Parx would know how to help the patron horseplayer other than reducing the takeout, which I don't think can be done without state approval. I'd like to see them close the slots and gaming tables during live racing hours only, but what hope do we have of that at Parx, which has the gaming in a separate building now? Most of the patrons are faceless and nameless, betting from home on computers, hundreds or thousands of miles away from the aroma of you know what. Live attendance, which is never taken, is pathetic at this track and at Penn National and at Delaware. If people don't go the track (and they won't, or can't) you can't blame the track entirely for not reaching out to them in some helpful, altruistic way. I know of 2 ways that have been tried over the years, neither was a total failure (but both faded away fast):

1) Several years ago a Md track sent out mystery vouchers that had to be redeemed on a machine at the track. Might have been Pimlico, but it was for a big day only, either the Preakness or Md. Million Day. I was tempted, but unfortunately, having been there, Pimlico has the ambiance and comfort of a correctional facility.

2) Last year Delaware increased exacta payoffs on track by 10%.

I think it was a racing executive in CA that said "the average age of our patrons is deceased, and their average condition is decomposed". HANA may get mad about statements like this one, but I think the executive was on to something. This is not directed at you, but collectively, all the indignation and whining that flies into cyberspace stays in cyberspace. If this forum is all we've got, then it's not nearly enough. If we want change, we should show up in person, contact the publicity/public relations department and speak our minds. A writing campaign to reach the state racing commissions and/or our presence at public hearings might also help. If the people who run the show don't listen, that's on them, but if we don't speak up and tell them what they're doing wrong, and stop expecting them to read our minds, that's on us. Am I wrong?

Well thought-out and articulated post; just as your first one on this thread.
:ThmbUp:

[proximity]

i would actually prefer to see racino tracks card more "owner's day" style cards (perhaps with restricted races for horses who have started at the track a certain number of times) instead of days with high purse open stakes that are likely to be won by out of town connections.

and as for penn national specifically, over $2 for a small cup of coffee is insane.

[proximity]

Thask, I don't think that Parx would know how to help the patron horseplayer other than reducing the takeout, which I don't think can be done without state approval.

they could directly give real player rewards (rebates) to players betting on track using account cards.

[Elliott Sidewater]

I think Parx already has instituted a rebate for on-track account card holders, but it's small (maybe 1 or 2%) compared with what real rebate shops are offering. Personally, I much prefer to go the track in person whenever possible, but I live within an hour of 2 tracks, and within 2 and a half hours of 7 tracks. I guess that makes me lucky or the exception to the rule - a lot of people on this board probably don't have the option of playing live, which is a shame for them. For me, racing is like golf is to some people - a total escape into an activity that is fun but at the same time requires total immersion and concentration for several hours to be experienced and enjoyed fully. Other than spot plays, I tend to do a lot better on track than at home and I think it's because at the track I just tend to concentrate on the right things and am far less likely to face distractions. The computer monitor or TVG just seems to be a poor substitute for the real thing. My idea of a perfect day is having my schedule clear to play an entire card at the track when one of the horses we own is in with a good shot to win.

[thaskalos]

I think Parx already has instituted a rebate for on-track account card holders, but it's small (maybe 1 or 2%) compared with what real rebate shops are offering. Personally, I much prefer to go the track in person whenever possible, but I live within an hour of 2 tracks, and within 2 and a half hours of 7 tracks. I guess that makes me lucky or the exception to the rule - a lot of people on this board probably don't have the option of playing live, which is a shame for them. For me, racing is like golf is to some people - a total escape into an activity that is fun but at the same time requires total immersion and concentration for several hours to be experienced and enjoyed fully. Other than spot plays, I tend to do a lot better on track than at home and I think it's because at the track I just tend to concentrate on the right things and am far less likely to face distractions. The computer monitor or TVG just seems to be a poor substitute for the real thing. My idea of a perfect day is having my schedule clear to play an entire card at the track when one of the horses we own is in with a good shot to win.
It is with considerable regret that I realize I have become the exact opposite...

Where once I relished my on-track excursions...I have for years fallen prey to the sirens of full card simulcasting.

Even when I go out to Arlington Park (I live 25 minutes away), I find myself in the simulcast center - deep in the bowels of the place - rather than outside...partaking of the ambiance of the track...and the sport in general.

And I confess that the "grind" is slowly getting to me...

[Canarsie]

They need to have a day with no takeout and no breakage. They could call it "No Gouge Day".


Great idea :ThmbUp:

One has to wonder if they did do that would any simulcast tracks carry them on that particular day? It would be great if every track did this and they had reciprocal agreements so it would be guaranteed to be carried.

[ManU918]

I think Parx already has instituted a rebate for on-track account card holders, but it's small (maybe 1 or 2%) compared with what real rebate shops are offering. Personally, I much prefer to go the track in person whenever possible, but I live within an hour of 2 tracks, and within 2 and a half hours of 7 tracks. I guess that makes me lucky or the exception to the rule - a lot of people on this board probably don't have the option of playing live, which is a shame for them. For me, racing is like golf is to some people - a total escape into an activity that is fun but at the same time requires total immersion and concentration for several hours to be experienced and enjoyed fully. Other than spot plays, I tend to do a lot better on track than at home and I think it's because at the track I just tend to concentrate on the right things and am far less likely to face distractions. The computer monitor or TVG just seems to be a poor substitute for the real thing. My idea of a perfect day is having my schedule clear to play an entire card at the track when one of the horses we own is in with a good shot to win.

I figured id chime in here being from Philadelphia, but also having opinions on other aspects of the game. A rarity in this game, I am 27 years old but have been around the game for years. The major problem to me with this game is the lack of marketing towards younger people, but that's a conversation for another day. Let me get into Parx. I haven't been to the track (Parx) in seven years, but two weeks ago decided to head over there because one of my favorite horses (Wilburn) was running and actually ended up winning the Smarty Jones (Not at the price I wanted but a win is a win). Here is why I will probably not go back anytime soon and just continue going to the local turf club and put all my wagers in then go home and watch the races like I usually do. First is lack of indoor space, for a track that place is pretty small. Granted I was there on a holiday, but for what seemed like not a large crowd at all, you could not get a seat inside (I eventually got one at the bar, but had to wait). Second is I hate being around people who don't know the game and go buck wild over a $2 ticket on a 4-5 shot. They have every right to do so and so do people who win big money, but I am one of those people that win or lose 1k or more on a race I react the same (Sit there and take a sip of beer). Obviously this goes on at all tracks and not just Parx. Third is while at the track I walked out to the paddock to see the two horses who I went to see and that's it. I did not stay outside at all because it was a circus with kids running around, people jumping up and down like they hit the power ball when they hit a $2 exacta box with an even money shot and a 4-5 shot, etc. I take money and this game very serious so I think that's why I and others who don't go to the track tend to stay away. It's just more convenient to do it from home. Bathroom, refrigerator, remote control, space, avoiding annoying novices, etc all are reasons not for me to go to the track.

[Charli125]

Or maybe not, maybe some people have quietly given up and are using this board to unload pent up rage from unsuccessful gambling instead of paying a psychologist $150 per hour.
Nice use of the tired fallback for owners whenever players complain. To paraphrase, you're saying, "quit complaining and start betting on my crappy product". On top of that you're calling us losers. Nice.

I guess it's understandable coming from you since the bettors don't actually fund your purses, the slots do. Enjoy that while it lasts, but good luck funding purses once the slot subsidies go away. You'll need horse players for that.

Damn, why can't it just be fun sometimes? It still is for me.
You should move to CA where racing is entertainment as opposed to gambling like it is in the rest of the world. I love a day at the track, or a day of betting just as much as the next guy, but "having fun" isn't going to solve any of our major problems.

Thask, I don't think that Parx would know how to help the patron horseplayer other than reducing the takeout, which I don't think can be done without state approval.
Agree that they don't have a clue, but I don't buy that excuse. If they wanted to lower takeout, they would approach whichever organization is responsible for takeout in PA and request that it be lowered. It's too bad because the owners could be proactive about this right now while they have slots, but instead they're happy to sit and soak up subsidized purses.

I beat up on CA a lot, but the tracks there have requested lower takeout, so they're one step ahead of PA right now.

I think Parx already has instituted a rebate for on-track account card holders, but it's small (maybe 1 or 2%) compared with what real rebate shops are offering.
Then they're not even trying. That's an insulting rebate on top of insulting takeout. 30% Tri's, 26% P4's, give me a break.

If Parx is trying to put racing in PA out of business then they're doing a damn good job of it.

[Elliott Sidewater]

Charlie, you make some good points. Let me find out if I know one of the trainers on the horseman's board - if so I will try to get the issue of the takeout elevated. I expect that there will be some finger pointing back to the PA State Racing Commission, and if that's the case we're going to need more than just one voice to get any action. I am not complacent when it comes to how the track treats the players just because I'm an owner, and I agree that this is a cause worth fighting for. Eventually it could come down to convincing the state that less is more when it comes to parimutuel takeout, but if their real agenda is to let racing die, it's going to be a very steep hill to climb. Maybe some of what I wrote was harsh, but I just think that if some of the posters went back a couple of months and saw what they wrote here, they might be ashamed of themselves. I know all too well that racing is dying and that sucks big time. I hope that you can understand that I have a lot of skin in the game and I'm trying to enjoy what's left of it while I can, without always feeling guilty that I'm not actively fighting its demise personally (who is?). I don't do this for a living, but fully realize that professional bettors are facing a very uncertain future.

Bad beats, bad moods, and bad things happen, but do they have to infect so many of the threads? To me it seems counterproductive, but it's a free country and far be it from me to challenge anyone's inalienable right to piss, moan, and bash, so I'll shut up now.

[onefast99]

The table games are now located in both the new casino building in front of the original racetrack facility and also in the original racetrack facility itself. Parx did a great job putting in a new owners/trainers area as well as refurbishing the entire 1st floor of the original facility. I have raced at Parx since 2002 and they treat the owners very well. The past two years we have enjoyed owners day where the original purses are doubled and they throw in a $250k turf race. Last year we won the filly and mare $110k allowance, this year they didn't use that race as they will have a filly and mare day on October 1st. As far as a slug winning the msw for 90k last Saturday I wouldn't say the horse is too bad it just banked $54k!

[Robert Goren]

The table games are now located in both the new casino building in front of the original racetrack facility and also in the original racetrack facility itself. Parx did a great job putting in a new owners/trainers area as well as refurbishing the entire 1st floor of the original facility. I have raced at Parx since 2002 and they treat the owners very well. The past two years we have enjoyed owners day where the original purses are doubled and they throw in a $250k turf race. Last year we won the filly and mare $110k allowance, this year they didn't use that race as they will have a filly and mare day on October 1st. As far as a slug winning the msw for 90k last Saturday I wouldn't say the horse is too bad it just banked $54k! PRX probably is wonder place for some horsemen, but what have they done for the bettor? They still have high takeouts and fairly short fields on most days. They still run a lot of 6 and 7 horse fields. With the kind of money they offer the should be able to field a card of races with at least 10-12 horses in every race every day. What gives?

[onefast99]

PRX probably is wonder place for some horsemen, but what have they done for the bettor? They still have high takeouts and fairly short fields on most days. They still run a lot of 6 and 7 horse fields. With the kind of money they offer the should be able to field a card of races with at least 10-12 horses in every race every day. What gives?
They have a steady revenue stream from the slots and table games. Yesterday the blackjack tables were all full, and it was a Tuesday! I agree with you on the takeout issue, but based on the fact that racing is considered a loss leader for this operation I don't think you will see any reductions in the takeout.

[Valuist]

I don't follow Parx at all but with the PA Derby this Saturday, I glanced over the entries. I was shocked at the purses for claimers, esp low level claimers:

5,000 claiming: purse $30,000
7500 NW4 claiming; purse $35,000
25000 NW3 claiming; purse $45,000

May be nice for a few select owners but I don't see how the sport benefits with these purses so out of whack. The theory is that the purses will draw better horses but I don't see Mnr or Prm taking horses away from the NYRA tracks or CD or Keeneland.

[cj]

I don't follow Parx at all but with the PA Derby this Saturday, I glanced over the entries. I was shocked at the purses for claimers, esp low level claimers:

5,000 claiming: purse $30,000
7500 NW4 claiming; purse $35,000
25000 NW3 claiming; purse $45,000

May be nice for a few select owners but I don't see how the sport benefits with these purses so out of whack. The theory is that the purses will draw better horses but I don't see Mnr or Prm taking horses away from the NYRA tracks or CD or Keeneland.

Personally, I think slots tracks have basically gutted the claiming ranks at the bigger circuits. There is a reason we now have NW2L claiming races and turf sprints galore at a meet like Saratoga.

[Valuist]

Personally, I think slots tracks have basically gutted the claiming ranks at the bigger circuits. There is a reason we now have NW2L claiming races and turf sprints galore at a meet like Saratoga.

That is true. No question they've gutted the claiming ranks.

But has the product at those tracks improved? Probably marginally, but not really enough to stir up interest among local fans and make any difference in handle.

[onefast99]

May be nice for a few select owners but I don't see how the sport benefits with these purses so out of whack. The theory is that the purses will draw better horses but I don't see Mnr or Prm taking horses away from the NYRA tracks or CD or Keeneland.

Mnr will never compete with the NYRA circuit, the purses are half of what you can run for in NY. The trainers fees are the big draw you can get a decent one for $40 a day at Mnr while a NY trainer will be in the $90 a day range. The conditioned 5k claimers at Mnr have purses of $8k to $11k. CT is the place to run for the lower tags the purses are very competitive with the eastcoast tracks.

[Charli125]

My apologies for my late response.

Charlie, you make some good points. Let me find out if I know one of the trainers on the horseman's board - if so I will try to get the issue of the takeout elevated. I expect that there will be some finger pointing back to the PA State Racing Commission, and if that's the case we're going to need more than just one voice to get any action. I am not complacent when it comes to how the track treats the players just because I'm an owner, and I agree that this is a cause worth fighting for. Eventually it could come down to convincing the state that less is more when it comes to parimutuel takeout, but if their real agenda is to let racing die, it's going to be a very steep hill to climb. Maybe some of what I wrote was harsh, but I just think that if some of the posters went back a couple of months and saw what they wrote here, they might be ashamed of themselves. I know all too well that racing is dying and that sucks big time. I hope that you can understand that I have a lot of skin in the game and I'm trying to enjoy what's left of it while I can, without always feeling guilty that I'm not actively fighting its demise personally (who is?). I don't do this for a living, but fully realize that professional bettors are facing a very uncertain future.
I'd be interested in hearing the response you get, but if you get a positive response, and need some backup studies, etc., PM me.

PA is far from the only jurisdiction where a state organization makes the decision on takeout. NY, CA, and more are all in the same boat. It's up to someone to suggest lower takeout though, and when times are good the only one's suggesting it are the players. It's good for the whole industry, but if you wait until it's an emergency, it's too late.

Bad beats, bad moods, and bad things happen, but do they have to infect so many of the threads? To me it seems counterproductive, but it's a free country and far be it from me to challenge anyone's inalienable right to piss, moan, and bash, so I'll shut up now.
See, I hear you, I've heard that position before, and I understand the complaining fatigue that many people are feeling. What I don't agree with is that we should stop. (Regarding bad beats and that type of thing I do agree that it's negativity for the sake of negativity, but regarding the state of the industry, I think it's beneficial.)

The big difference between you being primarily an owner and me being primarily a bettor is that you're happy with the CURRENT state of the industry in PA. I'm not only unhappy with the CURRENT state, but I see a future where slot subsidies go away, handle isn't enough to support current purse levels, and some genius is going to suggest raising the already high takeout.

My warning to you is that if you wait until slot money is taken away, it's going to be too late for takeout adjustments(and that will happen eventually). Horseplayers put a lot of time and money into following a circuit and they're not going to jump into the pools with both feet if you suddenly lower takeout. It takes time, and the longer the current unfriendly rates are in place the longer it will take to bring players back.

[Elliott Sidewater]

Charlie I will PM you, we need to discuss best approach before taking any action. It will be soon.

[NJ Stinks]

If we want change, we should show up in person, contact the publicity/public relations department and speak our minds. A writing campaign to reach the state racing commissions and/or our presence at public hearings might also help. If the people who run the show don't listen, that's on them, but if we don't speak up and tell them what they're doing wrong, and stop expecting them to read our minds, that's on us. Am I wrong?

You are not wrong but you are not right either.

I live near PARX myself and an hour from Delaware Park. First, Delware banned smoking according the new state law. I contacted them via e-mail and told them I was not coming back unless they did something in the way of convenience for smokers. The reply I got was that handle was down 25% on the races and in the slot rooms but there was nothing management could do. It's hands were tied by the new smoking law.

PARX (and it's OTB's for that matter) eventually banned smoking in the racing areas inside too. But smoking was not banned in half the casino on the first floor. When I asked for somewhere to smoke without going down to the first floor from the 5th floor, I was told that was impossible. Obviously, the track would have liked to accommodate fans who smoke but nothing could be done, I was told.

So I bet those tracks from home. And take one step out the patio door when I want a puff. How many players out there are like me?

As an aside, I was just at Shannon Airport. You can't smoke inside Shannon Airport. But that didn't stop the Irish from setting up an outdoor (high) fenced-in area with no permanent roof - just a canopy. Me and about 30 U.S. soldiers stood out there smoking to our hearts' content. Mind you - we were still considered inside the airport terminal itself and past the security checkpoints as well. How much imagination did a setup like that take?

If you can't do anything but tell your patrons your hands are tied, you deserve the crowd you get.

P.S. Elliott, I didn't hope these tracks' management teams could read my mind. I told them exactly what was on my mind. I had been going to PARX since it was Keystone. And Delaware long before you could see the track from Route 4. I used to go to both often. But both tracks did nothing to keep me (and lots of other smokers) from playing their races from home.

[Tom]

That is true. No question they've gutted the claiming ranks.

But has the product at those tracks improved? Probably marginally, but not really enough to stir up interest among local fans and make any difference in handle.

Best thing that could happen to racing would be to outlaw them getting any slots money. Purses are FAR too high for many races. Cheap horses running for big purses will kill the game.

[turninforhome10]

Best thing that could happen to racing would be to outlaw them getting any slots money. Purses are FAR too high for many races. Cheap horses running for big purses will kill the game.
Race 8 Remington 49 k for OK breds.

[onefast99]

Best thing that could happen to racing would be to outlaw them getting any slots money. Purses are FAR too high for many races. Cheap horses running for big purses will kill the game.
If that happens you will see a huge consolidation of the thoroughbred racing industry. Mnr and Parx would be the first to shut down racing and add more floor space for the table games.

[cj]

If that happens you will see a huge consolidation of the thoroughbred racing industry. Mnr and Parx would be the first to shut down racing and add more floor space for the table games.

That would be a wonderful thing for bettors.

[Elliott Sidewater]

NJ stinks - I think you may have missed the point, this is not about smoking. As a matter of fact it is a relief for me to be able to spend a day at Parx without my wife threatening to burn my clothes when I get home. The entire building used to reek of smoke, to the point where it would induce bad headaches. Delaware is more of an open air place, I was OK with the smoking there but they banned smoking in 2003 and not only did the slot attendance go down 25%, so did the purses! As it stands now, there's no reason for me to want to run our horses there, so I play at Parx and Pen instead. Too bad, because I liked the place a lot.