The climate of Iraq..

[sq764]

This is getting so sick its not even funny. This shit has got to stop..

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031124/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq&cid=540&ncid=716

[PaceAdvantage]

I read somewhere about two of the soldiers' throats being slit....that part of the story has yet to be verified....

Weren't the Iraqis supposed to be welcoming us with open arms once Saddam was toppled?

We had no plan for this phase of the war. You can go on and on and spout the "this is war, people are going to die" line till you're blue in the face, but a couple of things are becoming too clear:

a) things are going down hill, not improving day by day....but this is probably just my brainwashed mind talking, right? After all, CNN and the three major networks only talk about the bad stuff...

b) I don't know what the goal is in Iraq anymore...when was the last time President Bush went on TV and told the American people what was happening and what the timetable is? I watch a lot of TV, so I'm sure I would have noticed a change in my prime-time viewing schedule if the President was on...I want to know what's going on over there, what has been ACCOMPLISHED over the last few months, and what is LEFT TO BE ACCOMPLISHED....

c) Saddam and Osama are still free (and presumed to be alive). WHY? If we have the capability to monitor every phone call and every electronic message made GLOBALLY (thank you ECHELON), and we can read a license plate number from SPACE, why haven't we captured these men? These men were once allies of the US Government (CIA)...does this have any bearing on whether these two will ever be brought to justice?

Or maybe having them perpetually "OUT THERE" is a GOOD THING for Washington. It never hurts to have an enemy you can justify throwing tons of $$ at....remember the COLD WAR and the SOVIET UNION? Different era, same dynamics. Everyone used to be afraid of "mutually assured destruction (MAD)" Kids used to crawl under their school desks in preparation for the "big one" launched by the USSR.

Now we cower in fear in our own homes hoping the terrorists won't strike us again where we work and live....as daddy Rosanadana used to say "It's always somethin'....."

And now, our troops are being dragged through the streets of a hostile, terrorist nation, their bodies being humiliated and ripped apart by those we are helping to "liberate and free" They were supposed to welcome us...a new day was dawning for Iraq once the statues were toppled, or so we were told.

Bodies of US troops were dragged through the streets of another nation not too long ago, under the Clinton watch. Different era, same dynamics?

[Shacopate]

This is disgusting.

Somalia all over again.

I was in the Gulf War and felt lucky when we got the "cease fire."

The 100 hour ground war was clean and effective.

We all said that "if we don't do it now, we'll be back in ten years."

Even network reporters (on TV) knew that "occupied Iraq" would be the biggest struggle. We are spread out and way too thin.

I hate watching the news, because I know more American fighting men are getting killed every day.

Sucks.

For what?

[sq764]

We can't back out, as that would look like we just caused hundreds of deaths for nothing.. Sadaam would invariably jump right back into power and we'd be right where we started.

We could start putting a government in place, get the hell out and still actively seek finding Sadaam and Bin Laden..

Or, we could sit on our hands and watch it all turn to hell - watching 21 year old men dying every day, some at the hands of the same people we are trying to liberate..And this seems to be the avenue our government is choosing to do right now..

[Lefty]

Most of Iraqui's on our side. The insurgents are mostly prisoners that Sadaam released before the war. They are being paid to cause this trble. They are being funded by Saadaam or Al queda or both and there are some loyalists to the bathists and Al queda mixed in. They in no way represent the majority just as those looney communist inspired protests in London represented the majority.
We can't let this minority drive us out or the terrorists win and more attacks in U.S. imminent.
Can anyone fully preprare for war and the ongoing reconstruction of a country? This has never been done before in the mideast and is quite an accomplishment already, so let's get on the President's side and see it through.

[brdman12]

Although I think Lefty knows how I feel about Bush, I agree with him. We might have to see it thru. Other countries are getting left out of the rebuilding, and "maybe" the Bush cronies are getting richer, I don't really know. But we cannot abandon these people now. If we turn this over to the U.N., they'll not be able to invest enough time or people or money. We're the only country with the stomache for it. As long as we are at war with terrorism we are going to suffer some losses. If we could just find a fresh approach to this war, and not have to use the conventional approach where American lives are at such great risk!

[PaceAdvantage]

This is all fine and good (continuing onward with the mission, and seeing it through), but I want some DETAILS! Make me at least BELIEVE that the administration has a CONCRETE plan, and concrete GOALS, and a TIMELINE (of course I understand that this is a battle, a war, and that a timeline will NOT be set in stone, but will be malleable as the situation warrants).

Yes, this has never been done before in the middle east....all the MORE reason to be 150% prepared BEFORE the first shot is fired.

I don't get the feeling this is how the adminstration went about planning this war. I think it was more of a "kill 'em all and let God sort it out" sort of thing...now we're playing it by ear, and things haven't gone as planned (whatever that plan was)....

Things obviously can't move forward until all the bloodshed is brought under control...IT'S BEEN SEVEN MONTHS SINCE MAJOR COMBAT WAS DECLARED OVER...I don't think you can say a lot has been accomplished since then, and SEVEN MONTHS is a LONG TIME believe it or not.

As WinManWin says, "Right or wrong?"

[sq764]

PA, you are right, they are 'playing it by ear'.. Meanwhile our boys are getting killed, slaughtered, humiliated in the process.

I know soldiers were going to die in all of this, as it is war.. But they are dying while patrolling streets, doing routine things over there. And what for?

[JustRalph]

the terrorists want you to. They did the same thing to our soldiers in Bosnia and we backed off. That is why they do it now.
It worked in Bosnia and they will continue these tactics until they no longer work.

If we back off now, we play right into their hands and they will continue to do this to our troops in the future and in future conflicts. No matter where they lie.......

I disagree with the fact that 7 mths is a long time. The president, as much as I am pissed at him for not being more violent in this war, is right. He told us what this was going to be like and now that it has come true.......(no matter the reason we are there) everybody seems to forget that he said it would be tough and down right dirty.

Don't be a reactionary playing right into the role the terrorist idiots want you to assume. We need to steady our resolve and make sure that those soldiers who died did not die in vain.

*BTW: There are several reports that the soldiers yesterday were not mutilated as reported by the press. Those reports were provided to them by the very people who want to persuade you and I via the media.....think about it.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by sq764
PA, you are right, they are 'playing it by ear'.. Meanwhile our boys are getting killed, slaughtered, humiliated in the process.

I know soldiers were going to die in all of this, as it is war.. But they are dying while patrolling streets, doing routine things over there. And what for?

What for? How about the first semi democratic country in the area? How about the benefits that brings? How about the thousands who we liberated? How about the millions of Iraqi citizens who no longer have to worry about death squads and mass graves? It is the battle that we fight today, that will keep us from fighting in the future. The difference is if we had waited we might be fighting those future battles with chemicals and Nukes. It is better to fight those battles now than in the future. And God forbid we have to fight those battles on our own soil should we wait. Think about that! Think about the timing of this whole thing. You cannot deny that this entire operation will benefit not only the iraqi citizens, but it will benefit the U.S. in the future. Syria is on the horizon.......it is almost a forgone conclusion that Saddam has hidden the chemical crap that he had in Syria. The way we conduct ourselves in Iraq will dictate the actions of others in the area over the next 20 years. It is being done for future good and present protection. Don't be nearsighted on this.............I respect your guys opinions, I really do.......but don't throw in the towel over these obvious attempts to inflame the U.S. Public. You fall right into the trap if you do. This is not an open ended proposition. There are great gains to be made in an area of the world where we need them most.

[sq764]

I don't think anyone is throwing in the towel, I think people are questioning why our government would go into this so short-sighted.. Also, 'we' hear nothing at all!


I keep hearing how the media just shows us the dark side of it all, the american deaths, the resistance, etc.. Well guess what, that is all we get to see! Maybe if our president gets up there and details the benefit of all this, the progress, the plan, maybe it will start to open our eyes to the logic behind all this.

I mean seriously, when is the last time Bush has addressed the nation as to the progress of this war? Don't you think that has people wondering "Shit, where is he?", or "Is there nothing positive to report??" or "Does he even have a plan"?

JR, can you answer any of these questions??

[cato]

I don't think you can back out now. It would be a disaster and a playground for terrorists. We have to figure out a way to make it work and to share the workload. Where Bush screwed up was to take the position that its all the U.S. and we need no help from anyone else. Why did that happen? Becasue the U.S. wanted to control, unilaterally, the rehabilitation of the country and restructuing of the government.

It is possible this position was taken out of the desire to maximize the economic returns (certainly the cynical approach but it can't be discounted completely.

It is more likely that this position was taken out of pure arrogance and poor judgment.

We need to come up with a solution that will involve more countries and more men and women in uniform (not U.S.). The problem is that now Bush has bungled this aspect of it so poorly that it is unlikely any country would be foolish enough to help out.

Stay tuned.

Cato

[Suff]

The resignation of Eduard Shevardnadze was also somewhat of a Victory for the opposition of the USA on the war on Terror.
Al-Queda is fighting side by side the Checnyans...which borders Georgia and is a HUGE part of the West's future Energy Plans.

By West... I mean exxon, mobil, chevron and the like.

It's the world at work.. WWII was as much about acccess to deep warm water ports in and out of the Mediterean sea area. Now we see WWIII shaping up as the Countrys that will control Oil and Nuclear Weapons.

Who's are friend? Russia? North Korea? India might even go against us because of our alliance with Paksitan... France is against as are the Populations of most European Nations...

Was it WWI that was ignited by the assisination the ArchDuke Ferdninand?

Maybe I'm being overly dramatic... But a couple of things go badly at once and this WAR could be on all continents by the end of the Month.

[Suff]

Georgia, which sits astride a planned oil pipeline between the Caspian Sea and Western customers and is wedged between Turkey and Russia, is of substantial strategic interest to both Washington and Moscow, which showed its desire for involvement by sending Ivanov to Tbilisi and has bristled at US military involvement in the nation

btw... This Guy was 75 and was with Gorbachev 100 years ago... why is he even running this Country?

Here's an article from a Chinese News Source

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2003-11/24/content_1195075.htm

[sq764]

..speaking of terror.. Why are you trying to take Schilling away from our beloved Phillies? I thought we had him in the bag!

[Tom]

El Qeda is far to large and widespread to exist without the support of several (many) governments. The US is still in the dark ages when it comes to ground war. We do no twin ground wars and haven't since WWII. Our whole philosophy is flawed to the point of being stupid. What were are doing right now in Iraq is reprehensible - a waste of young lives for no valid reason. Our forte is air strikes, hit and run, strtegic battles with specific purposes in mind. Peace is not our strong point. Bush pledges that he would not be a nation builder when he sold us a bill of goods in the campaign. We cannot protect our own borders at home, so what makes us thing we can do it over there?
Our mission must get back on track-like when we took out Afghanistan. Find the terror camps, destroy them no matter where they are-no matter whose borders they are behind. If we find camps in Iran, then Iran is harboring terrorists and becomes a target. This crap about re-building Iraq is a waste of time and lives. Let them re-build themselves. And anypone else that harbors terror.
I don't give a hoot about peace with the muslims. Seek and destroy. Period.


:mad:

[Lefty]

Pa, how do you completely prepare for the unknown? If you read history we came dangerously close to losing World War 2 but we persevered and not only we but the whole worl won and benefitted. We gave up in Korea. The democrats had no stomach to fight an aggresive war in Vietnam and we lost. Elect those cowardly bastards in 2004 and we will lose this one too.
Is it not better to take the battle over there than to fight it here?
We have them on the run that's why they have made a concerted effort in Iraq so that we'll give up here. Bush, won't. Howard Dean or whatever Demo that might head the Demo ticketwill. The Al queada and Bathists know we have an election coming up and they are doing their damndest to sour the American public on Bush.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by sq764
I mean seriously, when is the last time Bush has addressed the nation as to the progress of this war? Don't you think that has people wondering "Shit, where is he?", or "Is there nothing positive to report??" or "Does he even have a plan"?
JR, can you answer any of these questions??

Sq

Every Sunday you can get an update by watching the Sunday news shows. There are several admin personnel trying to give us info or at least their version of it. Don't get me wrong..... I believe only half of what I hear. Bush has given at least 3 speeches in the last couple weeks that talked about details of the progress. You don't get the whole speech in a 21 minute newscast. Look hard on the Internet and you can find transcripts. The details haven't changed much. I am not defending Bush and his cronies at this point. I am very much pissed about the lack of real follow through after the supposed end of the initial combat phase. There should be a hell of a lot more dead bodies with our names on them. The media does have an influence on what happens over there. But there is only one way to fight a war, all out and Bush refuses to do that. The media hinders that process. I bet they are practically tying up field officers over there. To keep them from killing. I have spoken to a Capt. who is commanding an infrantry unit right now, as I write this (he works for my wife, reserve officer who was home for 3 weeks or so recently) and he is telling me that they are being held back so badly that he has men who are threatening to refuse to go on duty unless they can start shooting first. He blames the media for portraying everything they do as "too aggessive" and sticking camera's in the face of Iraqi families who have lost sons in exchanges with American troops. When these families are on the air portraying our soldiers as murderers, our soldiers see it and hear about it. It is a hard place to be, but sadly we have gone through it for years. And our soldiers work under these conditions all over the world, why? because we allow our press the freedom to propagandize every night on the major newscasts and 24 hours a day on cable. It's called freedom of the press and sometimes it is a double edge sword. The nightly news doesn't think it's worthy to tell us about the good things....not sensational enough, won't keep the viewers etc.

The Congressmen who visited a couple months back issued a report that basically said that the American people were being misinformed by the American press. The ones who authored the report were some hardline Dems too. I bet you didn't hear Tom Brokaw reading the results of that one. There are worse things happening to our troops (and have been happening in other places) than what we heard about yesterday. I just wonder how many people were this upset when Reginald Denney was dragged out of his truck and beaten with bricks until he almost died. Oh yeah........I forgot, that happen in Los Angeles.........

[Suff]

Originally posted by Lefty
The Al queada and Bathists know we have an election coming up and they are doing their damndest to sour the American public on Bush.

They Flew 2 planes into the WTC towers 2.5 years ago. They are Still blowing up people all over the world today...The elections are incidental to the big picture.

Al-Queada appears functional and able to mobilize internationally at many levels... Yet we're Building schools and Power Plants in Iraq because he had Biological weapons? Nuclear weapons? Blocked peace in Isreal? Was a Murderer? Was a Bad Guy? I don't get it? I thought we were after Al-Queda?

[sq764]

Tom, don't tell me there is a Mexican terrorist ring now!! :-)

[JustRalph]

Sq764

I just finished watching a "War Progress Update" from Rumsfield and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs.....on MSNBC. I am sure a transcript will be available online in the next few days. FYI

Reference your previous post below:
I keep hearing how the media just shows us the dark side of it all, the american deaths, the resistance, etc.. Well guess what, that is all we get to see! Maybe if our president gets up there and details the benefit of all this, the progress, the plan, maybe it will start to open our eyes to the logic behind all this.

I mean seriously, when is the last time Bush has addressed the nation as to the progress of this war?
JR, can you answer any of these questions??

[sq764]

And I also watch the Tony Little air runner workout machine at 3 am on PAX..

Point is you have to put this stuff on mainstream media (And I know, to a lot of us MSNBC is mainstream).. But let's face it, if you are not talking ABC, CBS, NBS, Fox or ESPN, you are really lessening your audience..

[Tom]

Originally posted by sq764
Tom, don't tell me there is a Mexican terrorist ring now!! :-)



D'OH!

[PaceAdvantage]

I never once said, nor do I condone, pulling out of Iraq until the job is finished, whatever that job may be.....

I hate when people put words in my mouth, or in my post as the case may be.

And Lefty, I am a registered Republican, but as I said before, I think for myself, and won't blindly follow a leader or an ideology that I believe may be going the wrong way. I WILL question things...and if I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I WILL question...THAT IS THE AMERICAN WAY.

I haven't come to ANY conclusion re: Iraq. I'm just questioning what is going on, and what I'm reading and hearing in the press. I read and listen to ALL KINDS of press. I watch the major networks, I watch Fox News, AND I read the little subversive websites, and the sites with all the "wacky" conspiracy theories and Doom and Gloom postings.

I read it all and absorb and filter. That's me in a nutshell....

Just 'cause I question doesn't mean I disagree or agree. I'm American, therefore I question.....LOL

[Lefty]

Pa, I understand. I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. But you see, I have come to a conclusion about Iraq. The answers aren't simple, and if you voted for a guy then sometimes you have to trust his judgement in the knowledge he is better informed than we are.

[PaceAdvantage]

Yes, I agree Lefty. I will certainly not claim I have all (or any) of the answers to such a complex situation.

[Dave Schwartz]

PA,

That previous post of yours was right on the money. That is precisely how I feel about... all of this.

Thanks for taking the time.

Dave