Godolphin/Darley

[tribecaagent]

Just finished reading the transcript from Andy's friday night chat.

One of the participants brought up Buffum possibly running in the Cigar Mile and Andy's response was something along the lines of Goldolphin having only one Grade One win this year. I was more than surprised to read this number.
We all know the Sheik allocates millions so why is Godolphin/Darley underperforming?
Is it Rick Mattee?
Is it Saed bin Suroor?
Is it the Sheik's insistence on training in Dubai?
My feeling is the shipping component has an effect but not dramatic. They spend untold millions at auction, mate their own regally-bred broodmares to their own regally-bred stallions, train at state-of-the-art facilities along with cutting-edge nutrition, vitamin supplements, homeopathics , physical therapy, etc. The finest of everything. To ship half-way around the world with that kind of attention does not excuse only one Grade One. There's a hole somewhere.
Is it Tom Albertrani?
Is it Kiaran McLaughlin? Probably not, It's Tricky is in Kiaran's barn.

I'm fascinated by this story. Why only one Grade One?

[iceknight]

Just finished reading the transcript from Andy's friday night chat.

One of the participants brought up Buffum possibly running in the Cigar Mile and Andy's response was something along the lines of Goldolphin having only one Grade One win this year. I was more than surprised to read this number.
We all know the Sheik allocates millions so why is Godolphin/Darley underperforming?
Is it Rick Mattee?
Is it Saed bin Suroor?
Is it the Sheik's insistence on training in Dubai?
My feeling is the shipping component has an effect but not dramatic. They spend untold millions at auction, mate their own regally-bred broodmares to their own regally-bred stallions, train at state-of-the-art facilities along with cutting-edge nutrition, vitamin supplements, homeopathics , physical therapy, etc. The finest of everything. To ship half-way around the world with that kind of attention does not excuse only one Grade One. There's a hole somewhere.
Is it Tom Albertrani?
Is it Kiaran McLaughlin? Probably not, It's Tricky is in Kiaran's barn.

I'm fascinated by this story. Why only one Grade One?

Are you 100% sure Godolphin has only 1 Grade 1 victory in 2011? or is the season counted in a different manner. I am sure I saw Its tricky and Rewilding win recently (both were G1 races..)

anyhow I also checked up on their website:, They claim SEVEN G1 winners. You can debate the number being cornered by few horses in their stables, but please double check to see where the hole is.. maybe in Andy's remarks?

http://www.godolphin.com/WinnersSearchResults.aspx?h=&r=&v=&c=0&g=2&d=0&m=0&y=2011&co=False


Date Horse Race Details 18/08/11 BLUE BUNTING (USA) (http://www.godolphin.com/HorseDetail.aspx?id=861) * Darley Yorkshire Oaks, York 23/07/11 IT'S TRICKY (USA) (http://www.godolphin.com/HorseDetail.aspx?id=1071) * TVG Coaching Club American Oaks, Saratoga 17/07/11 BLUE BUNTING (USA) (http://www.godolphin.com/HorseDetail.aspx?id=861) * Darley Irish Oaks, The Curragh 15/06/11 REWILDING (GB) (http://www.godolphin.com/HorseDetail.aspx?id=738) * Prince of Wales's Stakes, Royal Ascot 22/05/11 WAVERING (IRE) (http://www.godolphin.com/HorseDetail.aspx?id=966) * Montjeu Coolmore Prix Saint-Alary, Longchamp 01/05/11 BLUE BUNTING (USA) (http://www.godolphin.com/HorseDetail.aspx?id=861) * QIPCO 1,000 Guineas Stakes, Newmarket 26/03/11 REWILDING (GB) (http://www.godolphin.com/HorseDetail.aspx?id=738) * Dubai Sheema Classic Sponsored By China Guangsha, Meydan

[Some_One]

Pretty sure it was meant as 1 G1 in North America

[iceknight]

Pretty sure it was meant as 1 G1 in North America

Are you sure? I am not sure if Saeed Bin Suroor runs many horses in America. I see his name all over UK races, but *rarely* in US races.. But anyway, i have no money at stake, so I am off to bed!!

[PaceAdvantage]

Are you sure?Positive. Especially since they call them "Group" races in Europe, not "Grade."

[tribecaagent]

I am not sure if Saeed Bin Suroor runs many horses in America. I see his name all over UK races, but *rarely* in US races.

American racing is a kick, I certainly recommend following along a bit more. Saed runs quiet a bit here.

[RJason]

Andy said it because it is pathetic that they only have one Grade 1 win in the US this year - fact is, they have massively underperformed for a loooong time now, both here and in Europe, considering the amount of time and $$ they invest, which is FAR MORE than anyone else in the game.

It's always been about Sheik Mo's ego, which is why the horses spend so much time in Dubai...which has proven to be a losing proposition when it comes to racing elsewhere the rest of the year......but he doesn't care - he'll do it his way until he dies, results be damned.

[tribecaagent]

Andy said it because it is pathetic that they only have one Grade 1 win in the US this year - fact is, they have massively underperformed for a loooong time now, both here and in Europe, considering the amount of time and $$ they invest, which is FAR MORE than anyone else in the game.

It's always been about Sheik Mo's ego, which is why the horses spend so much time in Dubai...which has proven to be a losing proposition when it comes to racing elsewhere the rest of the year......but he doesn't care - he'll do it his way until he dies, results be damned.

I just don't get it Jason. Only ONE Grade One. The longer I think about it, the longer I'm absolutely shocked. How in the world does this happen?
Obviously, the Sheik wants to win. However, for him to only win one Grade One is something deeper than ego or determination. Shit, he can keep 12 head with Kiaran McLaughlin and win three Grade One's.
There is something wrong with the business model.
Is it the trainers? Saed seems the most likely suspect
Is it the bloodstock agents? John Ferguson is the Sheik's number one man
Is it the shipping to & from Dubai? Several Grade One winners have made the journey

Is this a "down year" for Godolphin? Perhaps.
Although, shouldn't a "down year" for Godolphin be something like 7-10 Grade One winners?

If my name was Sheik Mohammed, I'd be seriously looking to clean house.

[jorcus]

One of the issues seems to be the all out effort they put into making Bernardini a top sire. They go out and buy Bernardini offspring when they already have all they need.

They also have bought into training and racing on synthetic tracks They put synth in Dubai and the greentree racing center in Saratoga. They did not seem to use greentree to train on as much this summer. I don't know why. It does not seem to help with the dirt runners.



I just don't get it Jason. Only ONE Grade One. The longer I think about it, the longer I'm absolutely shocked. How in the world does this happen?
Obviously, the Sheik wants to win. However, for him to only win one Grade One is something deeper than ego or determination. Shit, he can keep 12 head with Kiaran McLaughlin and win three Grade One's.
There is something wrong with the business model.
Is it the trainers? Saed seems the most likely suspect
Is it the bloodstock agents? John Ferguson is the Sheik's number one man
Is it the shipping to & from Dubai? Several Grade One winners have made the journey

Is this a "down year" for Godolphin? Perhaps.
Although, shouldn't a "down year" for Godolphin be something like 7-10 Grade One winners?

If my name was Sheik Mohammed, I'd be seriously looking to clean house.

[point given]

One of the issues seems to be the all out effort they put into making Bernardini a top sire. They go out and buy Bernardini offspring when they already have all they need.

They also have bought into training and racing on synthetic tracks They put synth in Dubai and the greentree racing center in Saratoga. They did not seem to use greentree to train on as much this summer. I don't know why. It does not seem to help with the dirt runners.

Maybe they found that their hyperbaric chamber produced better results.

[cj]

Didn't they have an equally dismal year stateside last year too?

[jorcus]

Last year was bad as well but the year before they won a lot.

Didn't they have an equally dismal year stateside last year too?

[cj]

Last year was bad as well but the year before they won a lot.

Two years is a long time in this game.

[Some_One]

Didn't they have an equally dismal year stateside last year too?

2 North America G1's, 12 overall

Also in Europe they don't hand out G1's like they are candy which USA does, great case in point from Sunday where the major preps for the Arc, including the Prix Niel, a race that has produced around 10 Arc winners over the last 2 decades, are only G2's. Compare that to here where there are 3, 4? preps for the Ky Derby that are G1's.

[Linny]

The horse that won the G1 here is one that stayed stateside for "Darley" over the winter. In fact she was at Aqueduct (not Gulfstream) so she might not have even been considered one of their better prospects. I am not sure how much (if any) autonomy a trainer like K Mc has in deciding a course of training or location for a Darley runner. It's possible that the Darley racing manager made the decision that It's Tricky should stay in NY. Personally, if he were my trainer, I'd allow him to call the shots and I think he knows what he's doing.

Recall that arguably the best US based runner they ever had was Bernardini who also never went into the "Godolphin" system, stayed here over the winter and had a dominating 3o campaign.

The horses listed as owned by Godolphin are trained in the US by bin Suroor, with Rick Mettee managing US operations. bin Suroor shows up fr big race days. I do know that there have been times when the condition of the returnees has been called into question and I agree that the change in climate and feed and stetting can bother a horse. They just settle in after 3 months in Dubai and are sent back to NY, often to a humid, damp NY springtime. That can't be easy on them.

[ten2oneormore]

To be fair I think breeding gets the majority of their attention.I mean no matter how many races you win its still a million dollar business while breeding is a hundred million dollar industry.Racing horses is kind of just them playing with their toys.Even then American racing is probably an afterthought to the Dubai Carnival,Europe, and Australia racing.
Their breeding operation is top notch with arguably the three best stallions in Street Cry,Medaglia d'Oro, and Bernandini plus Elusive Quality isn't to shabby and Quiet American is one of the best broodmare sires.Then they have a bunch that can be future star stallions in Street Sense,Hard Spun,Discreet Cat,Any Given Saturday, and Desert Party.That is just their US operation , I'm sure they have some nice ones in Europe,Australia ,and Japan but I don't know much about the sires over there.
Also I'm not some Godolphin/Darley fan I am just a fan of the game and well bred horses to me are like well made cars to auto buffs.

[Robert Fischer]

Street Cry,Medaglia d'Oro, and Bernandini plus Elusive Quality
... Street Sense,Hard Spun,Discreet Cat,Any Given Saturday, and Desert Party

i'm still waiting for someone to breed Hard Spun to one of these stout german mares or even classy stayer with good bone from france/uk/australia.

then you get a potential classic colt with versatility of surface or a perfect broodmare to breed to one of the trendy classic sires in the future.

[tribecaagent]

The horse that won the G1 here is one that stayed stateside for "Darley" over the winter.

Recall that arguably the best US based runner they ever had was Bernardini who also never went into the "Godolphin" system, stayed here over the winter and had a dominating 3o campaign.

I disagree. Okay, you want to make the argument that it hinders several Grade Ones? I'll buy that. But to have only one Grade One win - total of three for the last year & nine months....

What about Discreet Cat & Regal Ransom (just a couple off the top of my head)? Both began their careers in the US, wintered in Dubai, and won the UAE Derby. Discreet Cat returned here and went on to win the Cigar Mile (Grade I), while Regal Ransom won the Super Derby (Grade II).

[pktruckdriver]

Should I put in my resume for Assistant Trainer, can I do worse than they are doing now, no offense, honestly, but the Sheik should be winning and I would be happy to look into it for them if they need a outside consultant, they has to be a reason for it, too much talent to be losing like this, but when they do figure it out, watch out world.


patrick

waiting patiently for my chance

The Sheik has my best wishes for turning this around, this man deserves it for all he has done in this business, enough said.

[mannyberrios]

Yes they have a classy operation

[cj]

I disagree. Okay, you want to make the argument that it hinders several Grade Ones? I'll buy that. But to have only one Grade One win - total of three for the last year & nine months....

What about Discreet Cat & Regal Ransom (just a couple off the top of my head)? Both began their careers in the US, wintered in Dubai, and won the UAE Derby. Discreet Cat returned here and went on to win the Cigar Mile (Grade I), while Regal Ransom won the Super Derby (Grade II).

Super Derby? Yawn!

Discreet Cat? Massive underachiever.

[Linny]

I disagree. Okay, you want to make the argument that it hinders several Grade Ones? I'll buy that. But to have only one Grade One win - total of three for the last year & nine months....

What about Discreet Cat & Regal Ransom (just a couple off the top of my head)? Both began their careers in the US, wintered in Dubai, and won the UAE Derby. Discreet Cat returned here and went on to win the Cigar Mile (Grade I), while Regal Ransom won the Super Derby (Grade II).


Yes DC won the Cigar Mile, but what have the vaunted Godolphin runners done during the prime months of US racing, May thru October? The horses that go overseas don't seem to return ready to take on the prime races within their divisions. The only exception I can recall is Cocoa Beach, but she didn't start in the US, she went So. America to Dubai to the US. I have spoken with people in the operation who have expressed disappointment with the lack of readiness of Dubai shippers to the US. A horse that is reputed to be top class should be able to come to the US from Dubai in April and be prepared to compete is the best races in his/her division by early June, so races like the Belmont, the Odgen Phipps, the Haskell, the Suburban should be on the schedule but they are not.

Either the trips to and from Dubai (with the climate, feed and care changes + quarantine issues) are too much for them or there is something causing them to lose form in Dubai.

How much of a freak could Discreet Cat have been had he stayed here? Would colts like Red Ransom or Girolamo who certainly showed moments of brillance have been division leaders had they stayed stateside?

[RJason]

The Sheik has done a lot for breeders, paying waaaay too much $$ for their yearlings, but other than that he's been terrible for the business.....taking away over a thousand top-class yearlings from the US in the past 20 years or so has been the biggest talent drain in the history of the sport....by far.

Think about it - if he hadn't bought them, at least 25 or more of those blue-blood yearlings would have become stars, some of them top stallions, etc......and who knows how many more would have won stakes, etc.......he's been a nightmare for US racing........

The Dubai World Cup/Carnival killed the Big 'Cap and Donn and has cost numerous horses their 4 or 5yo year - never the same after the trip......so that hasn't exactly helped US racing either.

[Native Texan III]

SM is truly very knowledgeable about horses and racing. Perhaps his staff are overawed and can't think for themselves without his constant blessing.
The team certainly don't go in for any joined up thinking, which is a recipe for serial failure, whatever the horse ammunition.

As handicappers, we may tend to assume trainers and owners know even more than us about race tactics and pace. From what I have gleaned they surprisingly know or understand surprisingly little, even at the elite levels.

For example, the Group 1 classic St Leger last Saturday.
Godolphin supplemented £45,000 for Rumh as a pacemaker for Blue Bunting (2nd favorite).
Although BB had never run 14.5 furlongs before they presumed she needed a fast pace to shine.
BB finished 6th of 9 runners with a race comment
"Held up and behind, some headway over 3f out, soon ridden along and never a factor"

The winning trainer, John Gosden, had already entered a pacemaker, Buthelezi, which made the entry of Rumh a total waste of money. The farce was made even worse when you realise Buthelezi is owned by SM's wife.

[jorcus]

For what it's worth, the way Emcee broke his maiden yesterday at Belmont I don't think it will be long before he goes on to better things. Now the question is will they keep him stateside and on the dirt and with Kiran?

[nearco]

For example, the Group 1 classic St Leger last Saturday.
Godolphin supplemented £45,000 for Rumh as a pacemaker for Blue Bunting (2nd favorite).
Although BB had never run 14.5 furlongs before they presumed she needed a fast pace to shine.
BB finished 6th of 9 runners with a race comment
"Held up and behind, some headway over 3f out, soon ridden along and never a factor"

The winning trainer, John Gosden, had already entered a pacemaker, Buthelezi, which made the entry of Rumh a total waste of money. The farce was made even worse when you realise Buthelezi is owned by SM's wife.

Buthelezi was not entered as a pacemaker, he was run on his merits. That said, given his well known running style, it should have been pretty obvious to anyone at Godolphin, or the SM household, that there was probably no need for a pacemaker for Blue Bunting. Gosden said as much before the race...
"What about your other entry Buthelezi?"

John Gosden: "Rumh has been supplemented, Aidan has stuck in a pacemaker so there will be plenty of pace but this horse, as you saw in the Princess Of Wales, really bowls along. He'll stay and all he does is gallop. It will be a pretty good pacemaker to lead him unless they're going Kamikaze pace."

[PhantomOnTour]

Does Godolphin have any runners this year in the Breeder's Cup?

[tribecaagent]

Does Godolphin have any runners this year in the Breeder's Cup?

I'll have to check......It's Tricky & ...???

[cj]

Does Godolphin have any runners this year in the Breeder's Cup?

They do quite a job for buying a large percentage of the best horseflesh, don't they?

[tribecaagent]

I just went over the card; Alpha in the Juvenile is Godolphin as well.

All the best to Kiaran, Art, and of course the Sheikh.

[tribecaagent]

They do quite a job for buying a large percentage of the best horseflesh, don't they?

They sure do CJ and Alpha is actually a homebred. Can you believe it? I'm shocked....

[nijinski]

They snubbed Coolmores Galileo , that hurt them. Especially in Europe. they are now being more realist but I don't think they are sending any mares to their sires still.